A Vindication of the Preacher Sent, Chapter 14
CHAP. XIV.
Concerning the peoples power in ſome caſes to Ordain.
THat in a Church which hath no officer or officers in it, ſome believers may lawfully or warrantably ordain without officers, we proved by ſix Arguments, Mr. Pool replyeth to three of them.
Argu. 1. Elſe Ordination were unattainable; for there is not one precept nor preſident of an ordinary officers acting in Ordination out of the particular Church he is over.
Ob. 1. There are divers practices lawfully uſed which yet we find no preſident for, but ſuch as extraordinary perſons are concerned in, as excommunication, Mr. Pool, p. 153.
Anſw. If there be a precept for ſuch practices (as there was for excommunication, Mat. 18.) we do not require a preſident; our Argument was from the want both of precept and preſident.
Ob. 2. It is againſt them, if what they ſay be true, then there is neither precept nor preſident for the ordaining of officers, Mr. Pool, pag. 153.
Anſ. This is a great miſtake alſo; for, we did not deny that an ordinary officer hath precept or preſident for acting in Ordination in the Church he is over, but that any of the Texts alleadged for Ordination do warrant his ordaining out of the particular Church he is over, this is it which we deny; and ſo if a Church wanteth officers, then thoſe Texts warrant none in ordaining, and other general Rules authorize no officers of other Churches to do it, more then believers without office… And this anſwereth alſo what he addeth (pag. 153. 154.) we grant that ſome acts of extraordinary officers are preſidents for us, but not ſuch acts as are of an extraordinary nature, or did flow from an extraordinary power. In the act it ſelf of ordaining, the Apoſtles are preſidents for us, but if Ordination was upon the hands of Apoſtles Miniſterially in every Church, yet it doth not follow it ought to be ſo on the hand of every Miniſter; in this the Apoſtles are not preſidents, becauſe they were Elders in every Church, ſo are not ordinary officers as we have proved. That the proper Elders of every Church ſhould carry on the work in their own Churches, is according to the preſident, but it reacheth no further.
Ob: 3. For, 1 Tim. 4. 14. we read nothing of them which was extraordinary, Mr. Pool, pag. 154.
Anſw. 1. Its very probable it was an extraordinary Presbytery; For, there is not a word to evidence it to conſiſt of ordinary perſons, Apoſtles were Presbyters, 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. Joh. 1. and Paul one of the Presbytery, 2 Tim. 1. 6. we proved before that no office was conveyed, 1 Tim. 4. 14. and if it were onelyonly an extraordinary gift, no ordinary Presbytery could convey that; himſelf ſaith the power of conferring ſuch gifts was the priviledge of Apoſtles and extraordinary officers, p. 150. he that will conclude it an ordinary Presbytery, muſt argue, a genere ad ſpeciem affirmative, and ſay, it was a Presbytery, Ergo, it was an ordinary one.
2. If it were an ordinary Presbytery (which yet is not granted, the Call to lay on hands was extraordinary, by Propheſie, as themſelves confeſs, Jus Div. Min. p. 167. and this is enough to our preſent Argument.
Ar. 2. Our ſecond Argument is taken from believers acting in a Synod, Act. 15. and other publick ſervices.
Ob. 1. If there be Scripture precept or example for the one, and not for the other, then they may do the one and not the other, Mr. Pool, pag. 155.
Anſw. Where hath he any Scripture precept or example for provincial, National or oecumenical Synods inveſted with power of cenſures? he muſt argue from a parity of reaſon, which is no good plea in that caſe, there being no inſtitution for any ſuch Aſſemblies, if they were inſtituted, their being warranted to do ſome ſervices might by a parity of reaſon evidence them, to be empowered for other ſervices alſo; and thus believers (not in office) have a warrant to act in other publick and more weighty ſervices, as Preaching, &c. Ergo, they may act in this.
Ob. 2. I deny that the brethren acted in making the decrees; thouſands conſent to acts of Parliament that have no hand in making them, pag, 155.
Anſw. The acts themſelves are aſcribed to the brethren, Act. 15. the whole Church is ſaid to ſend, ver. 22. and the letters did run in their name. ver. 23. The Apoſtles and Elders [and brethren] ſend greeting, &c.
All in whoſe name an act of Parliament runneth, are not onelyonly conſenters, but makers of the act; ſo here.
As to what he ſaith (pag. 156.) to Numb. 8. 10. we leave it to any unprejudiced Reader to judge, whether their Arguments or our anſwers carry moſt evidence with them.
Ob. 1. This was an extraordinary caſe, the Levites and Church officers were not yet inſtituted, &c. pag. 156.
Anſ. Though the Levites were not inſtituted before, yet there were other officers, the Provincial Aſſembly tell us (Jus Divin. Min. pag. 188.) Aaron and his ſons were preſent, and if it proves any thing, it proves that the people may ordain where there are Elders; Maſter Pool ſaith, it is as if a man ſhould argue, gifted men may Preach where no Miniſters are to be had, therefore they may do it where there is plenty of Miniſters; how theſe arguings agree we know not.
Object. 2. No doubt they were the firſt-born that did lay hands on the Levites.
Anſ. This is fully anſwered, Preacher Sent, pag. 344. moſt that he ſaith from pag. 157 to 161. is either inconſiderable or anſwrable, or anſwered before.
Object. 1. We hear not a ſyllable of the peoples concurrence in ordination, &c. p. 158. Paul in all his Epiſtles to the Churches ſpeaks not a word about ordination, ſurely the Scriptures ſilence is Argumentative, p. 159.
Anſ. If this will ſtand, many of his principles muſt fall; for we hear not a ſyllable in holy writ of the ſubordination of a Church of Chriſt (in point of Government) unto Aſſemblies made up of the officers of other Churches, nor of the ſubordination of Synods one to another, nor of its being an ordinary Presbytery which is mentioned, 1 Tim. 4. 14.
Nay there is not a word in Scripture for an ordinary officers acting in Ordination out of the particular Church he is over upon an ordinary Call, and ſo the Scriptures ſilence is as much argumentative (in caſe a Church hath no officers in it) againſt Ordination by officers of other Churches (our officers) as againſt Ordination by the people.
Object. 2. There is the ſame reaſon for the Apoſtles being a preſident for Miniſters baptizing and not the people, and for their ordaining and not the people, pag. 158.
Anſ. We have reaſons againſt the peoples baptizing, which are not fetched from the preſident of the Apoſtles baptizing, and which ſpeak not againſt the peoples acting in ordination, when a Church is without officers, as for baptiſme being a part of worſhip only by inſtitution, which (as worſhip) the people are no where warranted to perform in the acts of it; whereas the Eſſential act of Ordination is prayer, which (though req…red by Goſpel Rules on that occaſion) yet in it ſelf is an act of natual worſhip, which the people may perform; ſo Baptiſme is a ſeal of the Covenant, &c.
Ob. 3. We never find Ordination practiced, but by perſons in authority towards their inferiours, pag. 160.
Anſ. 1. Then 1 Tim. 4. 14. cannot ſpeak of Ordination by an ordinary Presbytery, for Timothy was an extraordinary officer, and ſo was not inferiour to an ordinary Presbytery; either this, or elſe what he ſaith, p. 149. 154. muſt be falſe.
2. We never find Ordination by ordinary officers upon an ordinary Call out of the Churches they are over, and ſo the caſe is as difficult on his part, as on ours.
His laſt Argument (p. 160. viz. That Ordination is that act which conſtitutes a man in office, we confuted before. And thus we have finiſhed our reply to the chief matters in his book; onelyonly for a concluſion he accuſeth us to the Reader.
1. For novel and ſtrange paſſages.
2. For ſelf-contradicting paſſages, Mr. Pool, p. 160. 161. 162. 163. we ſhall briefly anſwer to theſe.
1. As to his liſt of novel & ſtrang paſſages, we anſwer,
1. Our words (pag. 13.) do not ſo much as implicitly deny Jeſus Chriſt to have preached to the Jewes as a Teacher by office: That Text Mat. 13. 54. 57. was alledged onelyonly to evidence that ſtumblers at and oppoſers of the word, in reſpect of him that teacheth, may be ſaid to be taught; this is all we produce it for, as any Reader may ſee; and this it clearly proveth, that no meer man can be an officer to ſuch, we prove, but it is by other mediums, not by that Text, neither can any inferrence be drawn from our words againſt Chriſts being an Officer to ſuch, eſpecially ſeeing Chriſt was an extraordinary perſon, even the Law-maker and determiner who men ſhould be Officers to.
As to the Apoſtles, in a large ſenſe they were officers to heathens, but not Officers over them, or in a ſtrict ſenſe, as we have ſhewn in this book, Ch. 7.
2. The ſecond we own, if the reſt of our words be added to it, neither hath he diſproved it, we would know from whom Apollo had a probation before his preaching?
3. The third is proved in the pages he quoteth, and alſo in this book, Chap. 10.
Let him evidence that an outward call from man is any where in Scripture ſtiled a miſſion or ſending, or that any but God doth ſend in the ſenſe we take it in there.
We do not deny, that a Church is to give a Call to Office, but we deny that ſending is that call.
4. The fourth we own, neither hath he diſproved it; and the ſame we ſay to the ſixt and ſeventh.
As to the fiſt about adminiſtring the Sacraments not as Paſtors; we deſire the Reader would view our former book, pag. 280. and this book. Chap. 6.
As to the eight & ninth, we have ſpoken to them, Ch. 6.
2. As to his accuſation for ſelfe-contradicting paſſages, we anſwer. 1. We can find nothing like a contradiction in our words, if pag. 20, and 149. be compared.
For if a man may lawfully preach, yet may there not be divers things pre-required unto his preaching here or there.
May not a man have power to preach, and yet want requiſites unto the exerciſe of that power, in this or that place? do not they ſay, a man may have power, and yet without the conſent of ſome, or a ſpecial call, may not exerciſe that power in ſuch a place, Jus Div. Min. pag. 144? Doth not Mr. Pool expreſly aſſert it, pag. 6.? Yea he ſaith (pag. 48.) It is true; no preachers are in Scripture oblidged to preach in ſuch or ſuch a place, &c. what do we ſay more; We may turne his words (pag. 163.) upon himſelf, & ſay, how can a man preach, but he muſt preach in this or that place? quod nuſquam fit non fit. So that the contradiction (if it be one) is as much his, as ours.
2 It is his groſſe miſtake to ſay that we are guilty of ſelfe-contradiction in the other two particulars which he mentioneth, pag. 163. For, what he rehearſeth out of our book, pag. 300. to make one part of the contradiction, is an objection of theirs, they are not our words, but the words of the provincial aſſembly, Jus. Divin. Min. pag. 133.
And that which he maketh the other part of the contradiction, is our anſwer to the aforeſaid objection; and ſo, we do but oppoſe them (pag. 302. not contradict our ſelves. They are their words from, p. 300. l. 21. to p. 301. lin. 14. & this he might eaſily have ſeen though it be not printed in a different Character.
And now we ſhall put Mr. Pool in mind of ſome of his, 1. novel and ſtrange paſſages.
2. Selfe-contradictions.
3. Repugnancies, to the provincial Aſſembly, whoſe caſe he pleadeth, & the Dr. 1. novel & ſtrange paſſages.
1. He ſaith, that a Miniſter may be a Miniſter, though he have no particular Church to which he ſtands related, p. 11. & by Miniſter he intends an officer, pag. 10.
2. He ſaith that heathens are a part of Chriſts body, pag. 13.
And therefore are the object and correlate of the Paſtoral office, ib.
3. He ſaith of an excomunicate perſon, that while he repents not, he is to be looked upon after a ſort as an unbaptized perſon, or as an heathen; yet when he doth repent, he needs no new baptiſm, foraſmuch as God is pleaſed to impute to him his former baptiſm. pa. 27.
4. He ſaith that the difference between Apoſtolical and paſtoral power lyes not in the extent of their relation pa. 36.
5. He ſaith, Vzzah was puniſhed not principally, at leaſt not ſolely becauſe he did touch the Ark with his heads, but becauſe he did not bear it upon his ſhoulders, pag. 99. which is againſt 1 Chron. 13. 10.
6. He is not poſitive in it, but giveth it as his opinion, that Apoſtles had not their commiſſion as Apoſtles till Mat. 28. pag. 105, 106.
2. Self-contradicting paſſages.
| 1. That a man is made a member of the Church by baptiſm—is none of our Aſſertion, pag. 23. | 1. What a monſtrous Paradox is this, baptiſm makes not a man to ſtand in relation to any Church, p. 28. In Scripture there is foreign quidem, of any other door of admiſſion, p. 25. |
| 2. Either a Miniſter ejecting a man juſtly out of his own Church, eject him out of all other Churches;-or he is juridically ejected out of other Churches, and ſo he is in a capacity of being received into other Churches, which what horrid confuſion it would introduce, &c. pag. 24. | 2. It may be ſaid that an excomunicate perſon ordinarily is a member,—a Church-member, though diſeaſed, p. 26 |
| 3. If a Religious General in ſpeaking to his Army, principally aimes at the ſalvation of their Souls, yet this is not preaching,—though his end in ſpeaking be their ſalvation, pag. 41. | 3. Speaking of Paul he ſaith, the end of the actor or ſpeaker is purely & ſolely the ſalvation of their ſouls; & ſo it is tr… ly and may properly be called preaching, p. 41, 42. |
| 4. The leſſe is called of the greater, pag. 138. we never find ordination practiſed either in the Old or New Teſtament, but by perſons in authority towards their inferiours, pag. 160. | 4. He ſaith it is not any prejudice to the extraordinarines of Timothies Office, that it was con…ered by ordinary officers, pag. 149. what more ordinary both in ſtate and Church, then for a perſon to have an office conveyed to him, viz. Miniſterially, by ſuch as are inferiour to him, p. 149. |
3: Repugnancies to the Provincial Aſſembly and Dr. Collings.
| 1. Every Miniſter by excomunication ejecteth members out of the Church Catholick viſi▪ ble, Jus. Divin. Min. pag. 139. | 1. It may be ſaid an excommunicate perſon ordinarily is a member, a Churchmember, though diſeaſed, Mr Pool pag. 26. | |
| 2. They (i. e. Apoſtles and Evangiliſts) were virtually Paſtors and Teachers, they differed nothing from them, but the extent of their power, Dr. Collings, pag. 105 | 2. The difference between Apoſtolical and Paſtoral power, lies not in the extent of their relation, Mr. Pool, p. 36. | And he maketh Paſtors power as extenſive as as he ſuppoſeth their relations to be, pag. 6. |
Queſtions diſcuſſed.
Pr. S. noteth the Preacher ſent. Vind. noteth the preceding treatiſe; The number directeth to the page in either of the Treatiſes where the queſtion is reſolved.
1. Whether there be a univerſal political viſible Church? Or whether there be a Church of churches, a viſible Catholick Church formed unto fellowſhi…p in new Teſtament ordinances? Negat. Epist: to Pr. S. p. 4. 5. Vind. of Epiſt.
2. Whether viſible Saints be the onelyonly fit matter for a viſible Church? Aff. Epist. to Pr. S. p. 6.
3. Who are viſible Saints? Epiſt. to Pr. S. p. 7.
4. Whether a union by covenant, conſent or agreement be neceſſary unto member-hood in a viſible Church? Aff. Epiſt. to Pr. S. pag. 9.
5. Who may be ſtiled Miniſters? Pr. S. pag. 2▪ Vind. p. 1.
6. Whether Office be a relation to the work and employment of the Miniſtry, (as is correlate) or to a Church? Preach. Sent. 4. Vindicat. pag. 2. &c.
7. Whether Office be a relation, ſecundum eſſe, or ſecundum dici; Vindicat. p. 4. 5.
8. Whether Officers ſtand in relation (as Officers) to a univerſal Church? Neg. Whether to a particular Church onelyonly? Aff▪ Whether to Heathens and ſuch as are of no Church? Neg. Pre. S. 288. Vind. p. 12, 13. &c. p. 86. &c.
9. What is office? Pr. S. 14.
10 Whether there be a difference between Preaching ex Officio, and ex Dono? Aff: Preach. S. 18.
11. Whether unbelievers may come into Churchm…ings, to hear the word? Aff. Pr. S. 18.
12. What is preaching? Pr. S. 20.
13. Whether it be Preaching when in private? Aff: Pr. 8. 21.
14. Whether it be preaching when it is not in a ſacred aſſembly? Aff. Pr. S. p. 22 23.
15. What is authoritative preaching; Preach. S. 25. to 28.
16. Whether perſons who have preaching gifts and Graces, may ordinarily exerciſe thoſe gifts in publick aſſemblies, though they be not ordained Officers; Affirm. Preach. S. 29. to 216. Vind. pag. 21. &c. 125. &c.
17. Whether Election ought to precede ordination? Aff. Pr. S. 30.
18. What call is ſufficient to the exerciſe of preaching gifts? Pr. S. 37. Ʋind. 26.
19. Whether from gifted mens preaching it will follow that gifted women may preach, or that men gifted for any civil or military imployment may Act therein without any further call? Neg. Pr. S. 38, 39. Vind. 29.
20. Whether it belongeth to the Sph…re, place and calling of gifted men to preach? Affirm. Preach. S. 40.
21. Whether the Baptiſm of Iohn and the Baptiſm of Chriſt be diſtinguiſhed, and how? Pr. S. 69. 70. Vind. 66. to 71.
22. Whether Teaching and preaching be in ſcripture phraſe the ſame? Aff. p. 79. Pr. S.
23. Whether neceſſity be a good plea againſt the Argument from, Acts 8? And whether the ſuppoſed neceſſity maketh officers or no? Pr. S. 86. to 88. Vind. 33, 34, 35. 141.
24. Whether the propheſying, 1 Corin. 14. be a gift or an Office? Preach. Sent. 90. Vind. 37. 145.
Whether it be a gift ſtill continuing? Aff. P. S. 96. Vindicat. p. 41. 148.
Whether thoſe Prophets ſpeak by extraordinary Revelation? Neg. Preach. S. 104, 105. Vind. 46▪ 151, 152, 153.
25. What is not, and what is the miſſion or ſending? Rom. 15. Preach. Sent. 121 to 138.
Whether miſſion be ordination? Neg▪ Pr. S. 123. Vindic. 63, 64.
Whether miſſion authorizeth or giveth a Call to be an Officer, or to preach? Neg▪ Pr. S. 121. Vindicat, 156. 159, 160.
26. Whether the examples of Sauls offering ſacrifice, or Vzzahs touching the Ark do forbid gifted mens preaching? Neg. Pr. S. 154, 155. Vindicat, 164, 165.
27. Whether gifted mens preaching doth mak Officers void or un-neceſſary, as to that act? Neg. Pr▪ S. 156. vindicat. 55, 56, 57.
28 Whether if gifted men may preach, will it follow that they may adminiſter the Sacraments? Neg. Pr. S. 165 Vind. 169. 170.
29. Whether gifted men be under any promiſe in their preaching? Affirm. Pr. S. 189.
30. Whether preaching be an act peculiar to Offic…? Neg. Preach. Sent. 196. to 199. Vindicat. 53.
31. Whether gifted men may require and receive maintenance when they preach? Pr. Sent. 214, 215. Vind. 61. 183, 184.
32. Whether Election of a Miniſter belongeth to the major part of a Church? Aff. Pr. S. 216. to 240. Vindicat. 71, 72 185, 186, &c.
33. Whether an argument from the leſſe to the greater affirmatively be valid, and in what caſes? Pr. S. 224. to 228. Ʋindicat. 75. 187.
34. Whether the whole eſſence of a call to office doth conſiſt in Election? Affirm. preac. S. 241. to 321. Vind. 190.
35. Whether Ordination doth give the eſſentials of the Miniſterial Office? Neg. pr. S. 244. &c.
36. What is ordination? preach. Sent. 257. to 266.
37. Whether impoſition of hands be ſo neceſſary unto ordination, that it cannot without ſin be omitted? preach. S. 259. to 262.
38. Whether an Officer may adminiſter the Sacrament, to ſome that are not of his particular Church? pre. S. 278, 279 Vindicat. 101, 102
39. Whether baptiſm admits into, or maketh to ſtand in relation to any Church? Neg. pre. S. 284, 25. Vindicat. 109, 110. &c.
40. Whether an Excomunicate perſon be Ejected out of all Churches? pr. S. 284. Vind. 104.ib.
Whether baptiſm ceaſeth, when Church memberſhip ceaſeth pag. 292. Ʋind. of Epiſt. Vindicat. 105 107.
41. Whether bleſſing be an act peculiar to Office? pr. S. 289.
42. Whether a Churches ſinful rejection of a Miniſter doth nullifie his Office? pr. S. 296. Ʋin. 115, 116.
43. Whether if an officer removeth and becometh an officer to another Church, may there be an iteration of ordination? pr. S. 297, 298.
44. Whether in a Church which hath no Officers in it ſome believes may ordain without Officers? pr. S. 323. &c.
45. VVhether the difference between apoſtolical and paſtoral power lyeth in the extent of the relation? Aff. Vind. 120, 121.
46. Whether Apoſtles were Apoſtles before, Mat: 28, 19, 20? Aff. Ʋind, 169, 170.
47. Whether officers be before Churches? pr. 303, 304.
48. Whether it were an ordinary or an extraordiry Presbytery, that is mentioned 1 Tim. 4. v. 14? pr. S. 327, 3 28. Ʋind.
49. Whether womens ſtate of ſubjection doth forbid all un-officied men preaching? Neg. Ʋin. 177, 178.
50 Whether it be the duty of gifted men to preac… ▪ Aff. pr. S. 36.
Whether in ſome caſes they may not warantably or without ſin omit preaching? or whether gifted men be obliged unto conſtant preaching, if they have other callings? pr. S. 159 Ʋindicat. p. 129, 130, 131. 167. 184.