Reply to Rutherford, Treatise · Chapter 21
CHAP. XXI.
Whether Congregations may be excommunicated by Claſſes and Synods, by vertue of thoſe words, Matt. 18. tell the Church, as containing a rule and remedy for all offences, or at the leaſt a Church remedy, for the officers of Churches, and Churchmembers? And if yea, whether it would not follow, that a nationall Church muſt have the benefit of this remedy as well as others, and ſo have no independency of juriſdiction within it ſelf, but be ſubject to the juriſdiction of generall Councels, which yet Mr. Rutherford doth deny?
IN the ſame p. 482. He excepteth againſt another paſſage in the anſwer p. 27, 28. where he ſets down theſe as our words, viz. If our argument be good, If thy Brother offend and refuſe to ſubmit, tell the Church, becauſe Chriſts remedy muſt be as large as the diſeaſe; then if a nationall Church offend, you are to complain to an higher Church above a nationall Church; and becauſe offences may ariſe between Chriſtians and Indians, you may complain of an Indian to the Church: and then he ſubjoyneth his anſwer.
Anſw. Yet againe our words are ſo imperfectly related, as that our ſcope and intent doth not ſufficiently appear to his reader. I muſt therefore for the readers underſtanding, relate the paſſage according to the true and plain meaning thereof. The queſtion between reverend Mr. Herle and us being this, whether Congregations muſt depend on the government of Synods, and this reaſon being brought for the affirmative, that Chriſts remedy, Matth. 18. Tell the Church, muſt be as large as the maladie, offence; if therefore there ariſe offences between Congregations, there muſt be a Church of Synods above Congregations, and thoſe Synods muſt judge and redreſſe thoſe offences: to this we there anſwer that all offences do not fall within the compaſſe of this rule and remedy, tell the Church; and ſo no dependency of Congregation upon the juriſdiction of Synods can be ſufficiently proved by this text. Firſt of all, we inſtance in the offences of nationall Churches, of which we ſuppoſe our Brother will not ſay that they fall within the compaſſe of our Saviours rule, Tell the Church, for then the independency of nationall Churches and nationall Synods is overthrown, as well as the Congregations; which we ſuppoſe he will not grant; and yet it cannot be avoided if his reaſon for the dependency of Congregations upon Synods do ſtand firm. And next of all we inſtance in the offences of Turks and Indians and other heathens, who may offend Chriſtians and yet are not to be complained of to the Church, the Apoſtle expreſſely teaching the contrary, 1 Col. 5. This being the ſcope of that paſſage in the anſwer, which here Mr. Rutherford, excepteth againſt, let us now hear what it is, which he ſaith thereto.
Becauſe, ſaith he, ordinary communion faileth when you go higher then a nationall Church, and Chriſts way ſuppoſeth art ordinary communion, as is cleare, If thy brother offend, &c therefore I deny that this remedy is needfull in any Church above a nationall Church.
Anſw. 1. If this remedy be not needfull in any Church above a nationall, then the rule doth not univerſally hold true, that the remedy, complaint to the Church, muſt be as large as the malady, offence: and ſo our purpoſe is gained; For our purpoſe in that place is to prove this very thing, by this ſame inſtance of the offence of a nationall Church; wherein Mr. Rutherford we ſee doth come over to us, and affirms the ſame that we do. To what end therefore was it to make ſhew of removing or weakening what he had ſaid, ſith when it comes to the iſſue, he plainly concurs with us? For by this means our tenent is not confuted, but confirmed with his atteſt thereto.
2. Though here he ſaith, this remedy is not needfull in any Church above a nationall, yet I am miſtaken, if elſewhere he ſpeak not otherwiſe. For in pag. 311. prepounding this objection, viz. Chriſt here ſpe…keth of a preſent and conſtant removall of ſcandalls—A Catholike councell of the whole viſible Church is farre of, and cannot be had, he returneth this for anſwer thereto: That Chriſt, ſaith he, ſpeaketh of a preſent and conſtant remedy only, and of no remedy againſt the ſcandall of whole Churches, is denyed. He ſpeaketh of all remedyes to gain any offenders, perſons or Churches. And in pag. 322. he ſaith, Chriſt giveth an inſtance only in an offending brother; but the doctrine is for the curing of an offending Church alſo, and for all perſons to be gained, Thou haſt gained thy Brother: and ſaith he, we are to gain Churches, as we are not to offend Churches: 1 Cor. 10. 32. Again in his ſecond pag. 332. ſpeaking of five ſ…rts of Synods, of which he cals the fifth the generall and Oecuminick Councell, he ſaith, that all theſe differ not in eſſence but in degrees, and what word of God, as Matth 18. 16, 17. proves the lawfulnes of one, is for the lawfulneſſe of all the five ſorts of Synods. Laſtly, nothing can be more plain then thoſe words pag. 39. This of our Saviour, Tell the Church, is neceſſarily to be applyed to all Churches and Courts of Chriſt, even to a Catholike Councell: (The ſame is alſo to be ſeen in the Peaceable Plea p. 86.) In all which ſayings, he plainly underſtands the text we have in hand, to ſpeak of a remedy, for all that are to be gained, yea a remedy for the offences of all perſons and Churches that may give offence; which Churches he ſaith may do, and expreſly affirms that it is to be applyed to generall Councels, and that neceſſarily: and how theſe things do agree, with the place in hind, where he ſaith, he denyes the remedie is needfull in any Church above a nationall, let the wiſe and himſelf judge. For, for my part, except there be ſome difference between neceſſary and needfull, the ſayings to me do ſeem inconſiſtent, one affirming the place is neceſſarily to be applyed to all Churches and Courts of Chriſt, even to generall Councells; and the other denying that the remedy there mentioned is needfull in any Church above a nationall
2. Chriſts remedy, ſaith he, is a Church remedy for offences among the brethren, and members of the viſible Church. And Indians are nomembers of the viſible Church, and ſo being without they cannot be judged, 1 Cor. 5. 12.
Anſw. That Indians cannot be judged by the Church is very true, but nothing againſt us: for the very ſame that here is ſaid by Mr. Rutherford, was ſaid by us before, in the place which himſelf doth alledge, where we alſo brought the very ſame text of Scripture which himſelf doth bring. Now why ſhould theſe things be brought as a confutation of us, which are nothing but a reception of that which we had delivered afore as our own judgement? May not his reader be induced hereby to think that we had ſpoken otherwiſe? But to let this paſſe. If Indians cannot be judged by the Church, then ſtill our purpoſe is gained; for by this it appeareth that an offence may be committed, where Chriſts remedy, Tell the Church, may not be applyed for the redreſſe thereof; and ſo that univerſall propoſition, Chriſts remedy is as large as the maladie, and where an offence may be committed, there to tell the Church, is the remedy for the redreſſe of the ſame, which our brethren do lay as the foundation on which to build the juriſdiction of Claſſes and Synods, the univerſality, I ſay, of this propoſition is utterly overthrown by this inſtance of Indians; and ſo that ſcripture, Matth. 18. appears to be too weak a bottome, to bear the building which our brethren would erect upon it.
Nor is the matter much amended by that which our brother here brings for the helping and clearing of it, That Chriſts remedy is a Church remedy for offences among brethren members of the viſible Church. For let this be granted, as I know none that denies it, yet ſtill the queſtion remains, what is that Church to which our Saviour here gives power to remove and redreſſe ſcandals by excommunicating the offenders? we conceive this Church is only the particular Congregation, and its Presbytery; and our brethren think it is alſo the Claſſes and Synods: but this apprehenſion of theirs is not confirmed by ſaying our Saviours remedy is a Church remedy for offences amongſt members of the Church, inaſmuch as the members of a nationall Church, as ſuch are members of the viſible Church in our brethrens judgement, and yet our brother holds here is nor remedy preſcribed for a delinquent nationall Church.
And if he can ſo underſtand this Church remedy, as that for all this, the nationall Church muſt not partake thereof, ſo as to be cenſured and excommunicated by any Church above it, why may not others underſtand it ſo, as that Synods and Claſſes, yea and Congregations too be exempted from the juriſdiction of Churches? For my part, I know no reaſon, but if the Congregation be lyable to the cenſure of Claſſes and Synods by this Scripture; becauſe our Saviours remedy is a Church remedy, by the ſame reaſon the Claſſes and Synods muſt be lyable to cenſure alſo; yea, and the nationall Church likewiſe, becauſe this reaſon is applyable to all theſe as well as to the Congregation. So that this notion of a Church remedy doth not help his cauſe at all, nor hurt ours, any more then it hurts himſelf. If this reaſoning be good, it is a Church remedy, therefore the Congregationall Church muſt be lyable to cenſure for their offences, then this reaſoning is as good, it is a Church remedy, therefore the Claſſes, Synods, yea and the nationall Church muſt be lyable to cenſure for their offences: but this latter at leaſt, for the nationall Church, our brother ſpeaks againſt, and therefore he may not preſſe nor urge the former.
If he or other ſhall ſay, that this Scripture contains a remedy even for a nationall Church, then it will follow that the juriſdiction of a nationall Church is not independent, but depends upon the Oecumenicall: but this our brother cannot ſay, unleſſe he will gainſay himſelf, becauſe he hath already ſaid the contrary, and ſeriouſly proteſted it w…h a verily, that verily be cannot ſee what power of juriſdiction to cenſure ſcandalls can be in a generall Councell: onelyonly a meer doctrinall power in all the power that he can ſee in ſuch a Councell, pag. 482. So that let him hold to what he hath thus ſeriouſly proteſted, and this rule of Chriſt affords no remedy by way of cenſure for the ſcandalls of a nationall Church. Beſides, if the juriſdiction of a generall Councell be eſtabliſhed by our Saviour in this or other Scriptures, then it will not only follow that the independent juriſdiction of nationall Churches; yea, and much more of Claſſes and Synods is overth…wn, which I ſuppoſe our brethren will not grant, but moreover it will follow that Chriſt hath not ſufficiently provided Church remedies for redreſſing ſcandal…s of Church members: the reaſon of the conſequence is, becauſe all other juriſdictions being ſubordinate one to an…ther, and all of them under the juriſdiction of the generall Councell, which alone is ſupream, there may therefore in all of them be appeals from the inferiour to the higher judicatories, till at the laſt …atters and cauſes be tranſmitted from them all to the generall Councell; and ſo by this means matters ſhall or may never be ended, nor ſcandalls remedied, till a generall Councell ſhall effect the ſame; which generall Councels all know are rare, and difficult to be attain… … and therefore there were ſmall ſufficiency in our Saviours remedy, if matters may or muſt depend till generall Councels ſhall be aſſembled for the hearing and determining thereof, and may not be ended ſconer.
Therefore we cannot ſee that this rule, nor any other, eſtabliſheth the juriſdiction of generall Cou…cels; and then nationall Churches can have no benefit of our Saviours remedy of, Telling the Church; no more then the Churches, which are congregationall; and ſo whether is the ſaying univerſally true, that where there may be offence committed, there our Saviours remedy of Telling the Church, may be applyed for the redreſſe thereof, nor doth this ſaying hold, being narrowed according to Mr. Rutherfords minde, who would have it underſtood onelyonly of a Church remedy, for the offences of Church members. For we ſee there may be offences in Churches, according to our brethrens judgement, which cannot be redreſſed by the help and remedy of this rule.