Church Government and Church Covenant, Treatise 1 · Answers

Church Government and Church Covenant · Treatise 1 · Answers

p. 7THE ANSWERS TO THE Aforegoing QUESTIONS.

The firſt Queſtion Anſwered.

ALL the Engliſh and others alſo are freely admitted to be preſent in our Congregations, at the reading of the Scriptures, and expoſition thereof (which is wont alwayes to goe along therewith) at the preaching of the word, ſinging of Pſalmes, Prayers, Admitting of Members, and diſpencing of Cenſures; And many alſo are admitted to Church Communion, and ſo to partake in Church Ordinances and priviledges, as Sacraments, power of Election, Cenſures, &c. though many alſo there are who are not yet admitted to this Church Communion. But whether is the greater number, thoſe that are admitted hereunto, or thoſe that are not we cannot certainly tell? But in the Churches in the Bay, where moſt of us are beſt acquainted, we may truely ſay, that for the heads of Families, thoſe that are admitted are farre more in number then the other: beſides whom there are likewiſe ſundry children p. 8and Servants that are Admitted alſo. And for the Reaſon… why many are not yet received to Church Communion, they are ſundry. 1. Many are not admitted becauſe they are not yet knowne. Every yeare hitherto God hath repleniſhed the Country with many new commers, and theſe at the firſt are not ſuddainly taken in, as Members of Churches, till by time there have been ſome triall of them, and better occaſion to know them what they are. Sometimes once a yeare there are in the Land many hundreds, and ſome thouſands of this ſort. 2. When by time they come to be knowne, many do appeare to be carnall, and give no Teſtimony of being Members of Chriſt, and therefore if they ſhould offer themſelves to be Members of Churches the Churches would not ſee Warrant to receive them, becauſe the Church is the body of Chriſt. 3. Some that are Godly do of their own accord for a time forbeare to offer themſelves, till they be better acquainted with the Church and Miniſtry where they intend to joyne, and with the wayes in which the Churches walke in this Country, and and till they be better informed what are the duties of Church Members. 4. Thoſe that are knowne to be Godly, are all admitted in ſome Church or other preſently, upon their own deſire, when they offer themſelves thereto: except any have given offence by walking (in any particular, in their Converſation) otherwiſe then becomes the Goſpell; and then ſuch are to give ſatisfaction to them to whom they have given offence, by acknowledgeing their offence, and ſhewing repentance for it, and then they are Admitted.

It is one thing what Churches ought to be by the appointmentTo. 2. of Jeſus Chriſt, another, what weakneſſe and ſwerving… from his appointment, he may beare withall for a time, before he renounce and caſt off a People from being his Church. In reſpect of the former our Anſwer is, That when a Viſible Church is to be e…rected planted or conſtituted, by the Appointment of Chriſt, it is neceſſary that the matter of it in regard of quality, ſhould be Saints by p. 9calling, Viſible Chriſtians and Believers, 1 Cor. 1. 2. Eph. 1. 1. And in reſpect of Quantity no more in number in the dayes of the New Teſtament, but ſo many as may meet in one Congregation. 1 Cor. 11. 20 & 14. 23. Acts 14. 27. & 15. 22 30. And the forme, a gathering together of theſe viſible Chriſtians, a combining and uniting of them into one body, by the bond of an holy Covenant, for which we refer you to the Apolgie of the Churches in N. E. ſent the laſt yeare in way of Anſwer to Mr. Bernard. For the latter we deny not, but viſible Churches rightly conſtituted at the firſt, may degenerate, and great corruptions may grow therein, both in reſpect of matter and forme, and likewiſe in reſpect of their walking and Adminiſtrations, and yet the Lord in his patience may beare long with them, before he give them a Bill of Divorce, and make them Lo-ammi, not a People; as the example of the Church of Iſrael in the old Teſtament. Of the Church of Corinth, the Churches of Galatia, the 7 Churches of Aſia, and others in the New Teſtament, doe abundantly manifeſt. But what degrees of corruption may be, before the ſoule as it were, and life, and being of a Church be deſtroyed, is hard for us preciſely and punctually to determine; or to ſay thus farre a Church may erre, and yet remaine a Church; but if it proceed any further, then it ceaſeth to be a Church any more; onelyonly in the generall this we obſerve, the Lord doth not preſently caſt off a Church or give them a Bill of Divorce, no not for fundamentall errors in Doctrine, or Idolatry in Worſhip, or Tyranny in Government, till after obſtinate and rebellious rejection of Reformation, and the meanes thereof: for all theſe were found in the Church of Iſrael, when they crucified Chriſt, yet the Apoſtles rejected them not, till after the light of Grace offered, and blaſphemouſly rejected, Acts 13. 45, 46. But if your ſelves have ſo Studied this point, as to have ripened and formed thoughts therein, we ſhould gladly receive light from you.

We do not know any viſible Church of the N. T. properlyTo: 3. p. 10ſo called, but onelyonly a particular Congregation; and therefore when this Queſtion in the firſt and laſt clauſe of it ſpeakes of Believers within the viſible Church, as Members thereof, although they be not Members of that particular Congregation, where for the preſent they reſide, nor of any other: this ſpeech ſeemes to us according to our apprehenſion to imply a contradiction. They that are within the viſible Church as Members thereof, muſt needs be Members of ſome particular Congregation, becauſe all viſible Churches are Congregationall, as Mr. Baine ſheweth at large from the Church of Antioch, Act. 14. 27. the Church at Corinth, 1 Cor. 11. & 14. and other examples and Reaſons with Anſwers to the objections to the contrary in his Dioceſ. Triall Queſt. 1. Whereto we referre you in this Point; neither is he alone in this Tenent, for Mr. Parker, and many other teach the ſame. Thoſe ſilenced and deprived Miniſters that wrote the Booke called, The Chriſtian and modeſt offer of Disputation, laying downe 16. Propoſitions which they offer to maintaine againſt the Prelats, give this for the fourth of them viz. There is no true viſible Church of Chriſt, but a particular ordinary Congregation onelyonly.

Doubtleſſe every true viſible Church hath power from Chriſt to exerciſe Excommunication and other Ordinances of Chriſt, ſo that they proceed therein according to the Rules of the word, 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. Mat. 18. 17. Now Dr. Whitakers ſheweth againſt Bellarmine, that Excommunication belongs not to the univerſall Church, but onelyonly to a particular Congregation. Qui juſtè excommunicantur, ſaith he, co ſatanae traditos eſſe concedimu…, non t…men poſſe pr…priem, D…i eject…s ex Eccleſia Catholica, Quia Excommunicatio non Catholica, ſed particularis Eccleſiae cenſura est. De Eccleſ. Qu. 1. c. 6. Wherefore if Excommunication which belongs to the viſible Church, belongeth to a particular Congregation, it followeth, that there is no viſible Church, but onelyonly a particular Congregation. Secondly, As all viſible Believers are not without Chriſt, but in Chriſt, according as they are believers, ſo we eaſily grant; that thoſe without, of whom the p. 11Apoſtle ſpeakes, 1 Cor. 5. were unbelievers, Pagans, and Heathens, both without Chriſt, and alſo without the viſible Church. For thoſe that were in Chriſt, and believers in Him, were not wont to abſtaine from joyning to ſome particular Congregation or other; and ſo it come to paſſe, that as they were in Chriſt by their Faith, ſo by ſuch joyning they became alſo to be within the viſible Church. 3. But this we conceive is cleare alſo, that unleſſe Believers, be Members of this or that particular Congregation, to whoſe inſpection and Government they have commended themſelves in the Lord, they alſo in ſome reſpect may be ſaid to be without, that is without the juriſdiction and power of the viſible Church, and without right to the priviledges of it, as long as they continue in that State: for the Church hath nothing to do, either to diſpence cenſures and Church priviledges to Pagans, who are without all Churches, and without Chriſt alſo; or to ſuch Chriſtians, who though they are not without Chriſt, yet are not within any particular Church: for neither the Church, nor the Miniſters thereof may be foreign. And though thoſe without of whom the Apoſtle ſpeakes, 1 Cor. 5. were Pagans and Heathens, both without Chriſt, and without the viſible Church alſo, yet when hee ſpeaketh of Judgeing, and ſaith they might judge them that are within, and not judge them that are without, hee muſt not be underſtood as if he meant it ſimply of being in Chriſt or without Chriſt, and no more then ſo, but alſo of being in that particular Congregation, and without it: for it is plaine, that thoſe that were in Chriſt, if they were not alſo within their particular Congregation, they had nothing to do to judge them; and thoſe that were within their particular Congregation, them they might judge, though they were not in Chriſt. 4. And that Church priviledges do not belong to Believers, as ſuch, but onelyonly to ſuch as withall are Members of ſome particular Church: the Grounds and Reaſons in the Anſwer to the third and fourth Propoſition ſent the laſt yeare, do ſeeme to us to make manifeſt, whereto we do referre you, for further Anſwer to this Queſtion.

p. 12It is an opinion of the Anabaptiſts, that the Church isTo: 4. made by Baptiſme, and therefore when they conſtitute or erect a Church, they do it by being all of them Baptized, which was the manner of Mr. Smith, Mr. Helwis, and the reſt of that company when they ſet up their Church: The Papiſts alſo do imagine, that men enter into the Church by Baptiſme, and it is ſaid, that their Founts were ſet neere the doores of their Temples, to ſignifie mens entring into the Church by Baptiſme, and they thought themſelves to be chriſtened, or made chriſtian ſoules by being Baptized. But we do not believe that Baptiſme doth make men Members of the Church, nor that it is to be Adminiſtred to them that are without the Church, as the way and meanes to bring them in, but to them that are within the Church, as a ſeale to confirme the Covenant of God unto them. For

1. This is one point of the dignity and priviledge of the Church, that Baptiſme and all Church Ordinances are given and committed to it, as Circumciſion, and Church Ordinances were given and concredited to the Church of the Jewes, Ioh. 7. 22. Now if Baptiſme in its firſt being and inſtitution be given as a benefit and priviledge to the Church, then Baptiſme is not that which makes the Church; but the Church is preſuppoſed, and muſt be before it, for the dones, or perſons to whom a thing is given, muſt needs be before the gift that is given to them.

2. The nature and uſe of Baptiſme is to be a ſeale to confirme the Covenant of Grace between God and his Church, and the Members thereof, as circumciſion alſo was, Rom. 4. 11. Now a ſeale is not to make a thing that was not, but to confirme ſomething that was before; and ſo Baptiſme is not that which gives being to the Church, nor to the Covenant, but is for confirmation thereof. To bring in Baptiſme before the Covenant, and before the Church, with whom God makes the Covenant and then to bring in the Church afterwards, is to make Baptiſme a ſeale unto a Blanke, or to a falſhood. When the Jeſuits of Rhemes had ſaid that Chriſt p. 13ſent 12 Apoſtles to the Jewes to move them to penance, and ſo by Baptiſme to make them of his Church. And that Paul was ſent to the Gentiles to move them alſo to faith and penance, and by Baptiſme to make them of his Church. This ſaying of making men of the Church by Baptiſme, though uttered by them, as it were by the way, and not being the chiefe ſcope of their diſcourſe, yet ſeemed to Mr. Cartwright ſo erroneous and unſound, that hee would not let it paſſe without bearing ſpeciall witneſſe againſt the ſame. And therefore in oppoſition thereunto he hath theſe words, and in another Character for more conſpicuouſneſſe, viz. That Baptiſme makes not men of the Church, but ſealeth their incorporation into it, hath been declared afore. Argument of Acts 6. 1. And that Catechiſme which is commonly ſaid to be penned by our Reverend Brother Mr. Ball, or Mr. Nicholas, now with God, giving this for the definition of Baptiſme, that it is a Sacrament of our ingrafting into Chriſt, communion with him, and entrance into the Church, doth in the Expoſition plainely declare, that when they called Baptiſme a Sacrament of our entrance into the Church, they did not meane that Baptiſme made men Members of the Church, but ſignified and ſealed that they were Members afore: The ſeed of Abraham ſay they, Pag 144. Gal. 3. 7. or children of Chriſtian Parents are within the Covenant, are Chriſtians and Members of the Church, 1 Cor. 7. 14. Rom. 11. 16. Baptiſme therefore doth not make them Chriſtian ſoules, but doth ſolemnly ſignifie and Seale their ingrafting into Chriſt, and that communion which the Members of Chriſt have with him their head, and doth confirme, that they are acknowledged Members of the Church, and entred into it, 1 Pet. 3. 21.

3. The Lord hath had his Church when there was neither Baptiſme nor circumciſion, and therefore Baptiſme or circumciſion cannot be that which conſtitutes the Church. The Church is one and the ſame in eſſence from the begining of the world to the end thereof, viz. A company of People combined together by holy Covenant with God, p. 14and one with another, and this hath been before Baptiſme, and likewiſe before Circumciſion in the dayes of the Patriarks afore Abraham. Yea if Baptiſme now, or Circumciſion in former time did make men Members of the Church, then for forty yeares together there was no making Members of the Church, for ſo long circumciſion was diſcontinued, when Baptiſme was not yet inſtituted, Ioſſ. 5. 2, 3. &c. And ſo by this meanes all that Generation of the Iſraelites that were not circumciſed till their comming over Jordan unto Gilgall, ſhould have bin no Members of the Church afore that time of their circumciſion, which is contrary to the Scripture, which as it gives the name and title of a Church to the body of this people, when they were in the Wilderneſſe, Act. 7. …8. (and they were in the Wilderneſſe 40. yeares, in the latter parts of which time there were few left remaining that had beene circumciſed) ſo it witneſſeth that afore this time of their circumciſion they were in covenant with God and his Church, Deut. 29. 10, 11, 12. For that covenant was not made with their Fathers that came out of Egypt, and were circumciſed there, becauſe that generation was conſumed in the Wilderneſſe for their murmuring afore this time: but this covenant was made with the children, that as yet were uncircumciſed, and therefore it was not circumciſion that made men Members of the Church.

4. Baptiſme hath been Adminiſtred, and no Church nor Members made thereby, and men have been made Members of Churches and not then Baptiſed, but before. And therfore it is not Baptiſme that makes men Members of the Church, Jeruſalem and all Judea, and all the Region round about Jordan were Baptiſed of Iohn confeſsing their ſinnes, Mat. 3. 6. And Chriſt made and Baptiſed more Diſciples then Iohn, Ioh. 4. 1. And yet neither Chriſt nor John did make new Churches, nor gather men into them themſelves, both the one and the other living and dying Members of the Jewiſh Church, which was not yet diſſolved, untill upon their rejecting of Chriſt (not onelyonly of his perſon upon p. 15the croſſe, but of his Goſpel in blaſpheming and perſecuting Grace offered them) the two ſtaves of beauty and bands were broken and cut aſſunder, whereby God did breake the Covenant that he had made with that People, and the Brotherhood between Juda and Iſrael, that is, he did un church them, Zach. 11. 10, 11. &c. to 15. So that here is Baptiſme Adminiſtred by John and Chriſt, and yet men not received thereby into the Church as Members, for they were Members long afore.

Againe, when any of thoſe of Jeruſalem, Judea, and the Region round about Jordan, that were Baptiſed of John, or any of thoſe, many more that were Baptiſed of Chriſt, were afterward joyned as Members to thoſe chriſtian Churches in Judea, Samaria, and Galile, Act. 9. 31. (As no doubt many of them were) they were not made Members of thoſe Chriſtian Churches by being Baptiſed, for they were Baptiſed long afore by John and Chriſt, ſo that thoſe men were Members of the Jewiſh Church, which was not yet diſſolved, and were Baptiſed afterward. And therefore it was not Baptiſme that made them members, either of the one Church or of the other.

5. There are ſundry inconveniences, which for ought we ſee will unavoidably follow, if we ſhall ſay that Baptiſme makes men members of the Church; For firſt, if Baptiſme be that which conſtituts the Church, then Baptiſme may be diſpenced by them that are no Miniſters, for extraordinary Miniſters, as Apoſtles, and ſuch like are now ceaſed; and ordinary Miniſters have no power to diſpence Baptiſme to any, but onelyonly to them that are already members of the Church, ſeeing their Commiſsion and power is limited to the Church, and the flock of God over which the Holy Ghoſt hath made them overſeers, Acts 20. 28. Beſides, the Church is before the Miniſters, ſeeing the power of chooſing Miniſters is given by Chriſt unto the Church; and therfore if Baptiſme be that which makes the Church, then men muſt be Baptiſed afore there be Miniſters to Baptiſe them, and conſequently without Miniſters.

p. 16Secondly, if Baptiſme rightly for ſubſtance partaked, doth make men members of the viſible Church, then it will follow that Papiſts are members of the Church: for they have Baptiſme ſo farre right for ſubſtance, as that it needs not be repeated. But Mr. Perkins teacheth that this Baptiſme proves not the Church of Rome, of which all Papiſts are members, to be any true Church of God, and gives ſundry Reaſons for the ſame, in Anſwer to them, that from Baptiſme rightly for ſubſtance Adminiſtred in Popiſh Aſſemblies, would prove thoſe Aſſemblies to be true Churches: Expoſit. of Creede, in the Article, I believe the holy Catholique Church.

And ſurely for our parts, we doe not ſee how it will be avoyded, but if Baptiſme made men members of the viſible Church, either Papiſts are members of the viſible Church, and the Church of Rome, of which they are Members, a true viſible Church, or elſe we muſt renounce their Baptiſme as corrupt and falſe, even for the ſubſtance of it; and ſo all ſuch as ſhall be converted from amongſt them, muſt be Baptiſed againe, as not having had the ſubſtance of Baptiſme before: ſuch dangerous conſequences do follow from ſaying, that Baptiſme, rightly for ſubſtance partaked, doth make them that are ſo Baptiſed Members of the viſible Church.

If any ſhall ſay, Though Baptiſme do not make men Members of Object.the Church, yet it proves them to be Members as a cauſe, is proved by the effect, or an Antecedent by a conſequent: and therefore all Baptiſed Perſons ſhould be admitted to all Church priviledges as Members, whereever they become.

We Anſwer, that this will not hold neither, but ſuppoſeAnſw. a man have received Baptiſme as a Member of ſome viſible Church, which ought not to have been Adminiſtred to him, had he not been a member, yet this doth not prove him to be a member ſtill and ſo give him right to all Church Priviledges, though hee do remaine alwaies as a Baptiſed perſon; and the Reaſon is, becauſe his Baptiſme may remain, when his Church fellowſhip may be diſſolved, as that he can have no right to Sacraments thereby: the p. 17Church member-ſhip of a Baptiſed Perſon may be thus diſſolved by ſundry meanes. 1. By ſome ſentence of Excommunication juſtly paſſed againſt him for his ſinne; for that cenſure puts him away from the Communion of the Church, 1 Cor. 5. 2. 13. and makes him as an Heathen or Publican, Mat. 18. 17. So that in that caſe he can have no right to Sacraments by his Member-ſhip, though he ſtill continue a Baptiſed Perſon. 2. By his voluntary departing from the Church and the communion of the ſame when it is unjuſtly done, 1 Ioh. 2. 19. Iude 19. Heb. 10. 25. In which caſe Dr. Ames reſolves ſuch Schiſmaticks to be no Members of the viſible Church, Caſ. Conſ. Lib. 5. c. 12 Q. 4. Resp. 3. 3. By the diſſolution of the Church of which he was a Member; for Church Member-ſhip is in relation to a Church, and therefore if the Church ceaſe, the Memberſhip muſt ceaſe alſo; Relatum & correlatum Quâ …alia ſunt ſimul, adeoqueſe mutuoponunt et tollunt. Now a Church may be diſſolved, 1. By Apoſtacie and Gods giving them a bill of Divorce thereupon, Ier. 3. 8. When yet there may be in ſuch a Church ſome particular perſon or perſons deare to God, who in ſuch a caſe are bid to come out from ſuch an Apoſtate Church, Rev. 18. 4. Hoſe. 2. 1, 2. & 4, 15, 17. 2. By death, as by ſome grievous Peſtilence or Maſacre, &c. in which caſe one particular perſon ſurviving, cannot be counted a Member of a Church, when that Church is extinct of which he was, and yet he remaines a perſon Baptiſed if he were Baptiſed afore. 3. If that be true which is taught by Dr. Ames Caſ. Conſ. Lib. 5. c. 12. Q. 3. Reſp. 2. that in ſome caſes it is lawfull and neceſſary to withdraw from the communion of a true Church (which ſeemes to be agreeable to grounds of Scripture, Epheſ. 5. 11. 2 Chr…. 11. 14.) then that will be another caſe wherein Church Memberſhip is diſanulled; for how a man can be counted in that ſtate a Member of a Church, when hee hath lawfully and neceſſarily withdrawn himſelfe from the communion of the Church, we do not underſtand. And this ſhall ſuffice for Anſwer unto this Point, whether Baptiſme make men p. 18Members of a viſible Church, which as we conceive, is the ſcope and drift of this Queſtion. Yet before we proceed to make Anſwer to the next, ſomething alſo may be ſaid concerning ſome paſſages in your Amplification of this fourth Queſtion. As firſt concerning thoſe words wherein you aske, Whether they that are Baptiſed have not right, quoad nos, to all the priviledges of the viſible Church (ſo farre as they are otherwiſe fit:) concerning which words we may ſay, 1. That thoſe words of your Parentheſis (ſo farre as they are otherwiſe fit:) doe plainely imply, that in your judgement, though one hath received Baptiſme, yet this doth not give him right to the priviledges of the viſible Church, unleſſe other things do concurre to make him fit, wherein we conſent with you. Now if this be ſo, then this ſeemes to be an Anſwer to that which (as we conceive) is the maine intent of the Queſtion. For how can it be, that Baptiſme alone ſhould give men right to the priviledges of the Church (as Members thereof, as the Queſtion ſeemes to import) when in the Amplification of it, it is granted, that Perſons Baptiſed have no ſuch right, except other things doe concurre to make them fit: we doe not ſee how theſe things doe ſtand together.

Secondly, thoſe words as farre as they are otherwiſe fit:) as they ſeeme to imply that which contradicts the maine ſcope of the Queſtion; ſo they are ſo generall and of ſuch a latitude, as that when the Queſtion is Anſwered the Reader is ſtill left at uncertainty: For if ſuch a Parentheſis may be annexed (ſo farre as men are otherwiſe fit:) then the like Queſtion may be applied to many other things beſides Baptiſme, and would receive the very ſame Anſwer, as in caſe of Baptiſme it would receive. As for example, if one ſhould aske whether Morall honeſtie or litterall knowledge in the Scriptures, or Hiſtoricall Faith, or the uſe of Reaſon, whether any of theſe doe not give men right to Church priviledges, ſo farre as they are otherwiſe fit? You know the Anſwer would be, Yea. For though none of theſe be ſufficient alone, to give men right to the priviledges of the p. 19Church, yet they are ſuch as they that have them, have right ſo farre as they are otherwiſe fit, and ſo if it were granted that they that have received Baptiſme have right, as you ſay, to all the priviledges of the Church, ſo farre as they are otherwiſe fit: yet as this doth not prove that Baptiſme alone doth give men ſuch a right, ſo ſtill it remaines to be conſidered, and more particularly declared, what thoſe other things are that beſides Baptiſme muſt concurre to make one fit; and unleſſe thoſe things be expreſſed in particular, the Queſtion with ſuch a generall Qualification as is here ſet down, may be Anſwered affirmatively, and yet the Reader will be ſtill in the darke, and as much to ſeeke as before.

Laſtly, thoſe words in the latter end of this Queſtion had need to be further cleared, wherein you aske, Whether Baptiſed perſons have not right to all the priviledges of the Church, quoad nos, untill they be caſt out by Excommunication? For ſuppoſe an open Blaſphemer, a Sabath-breaker, an Adulterer, a Drunkard, &c. that deſerves to be Excommunicated, be not proceeded againſt according to rule, but be ſuffered to continue in the Church through bribery or other corruption of the times, would you ſay that ſuch a perſon had right either before God, or quoad nos to all the priviledges of the Church, onelyonly becauſe hee is Baptiſed? Surely your words doe import ſo much, unleſſe that Parentheſis (ſo far as they are otherwiſe fit) may be any helpe in this caſe. And yet we hope you doubt not but ſuch Doggs and Swine have no right either quoad nos, or otherwiſe, to the priviledges of the Church as long as they continue in that State, although they have received Baptiſme, and although through the ſinfull neglect of men they be not caſt out by Excommunication, as they doe deſerve; For if groſſe ſinners have ſuch right to Church priviledges, onelyonly becauſe they are Baptiſed, then by what right can the Church caſt them out by Excommunication, as you ſeeme to confeſſe that ſhe may: for can ſhe caſtimen out from ſuch priviledges whereunto they have right? doubtleſſe ſuch proceedings were not p. 20right, unleſſe the Church have ſuch a Tranſcendent power as the Apoſtles never had, for they could do nothing againſt the truth but for the truth, nor had they any power for deſtruction, but for Edification, 2 Cor. 13. 8. 10. Wherefore we dare not ſay ſuch men have right to Church priviledges (quoad nos) untill they be actually caſt out, becauſe before they be caſt out, it muſt be cleare to the Church, that they have no ſuch right, or elſe ſhe can have no lawfull Right to caſt them out.

1. Infants with us are Admitted Members in and withTo 5. & 6. their Parents, ſo as to be Admitted to all Church priviledges of which Infants are capable, as namely to Baptiſme; and therefore when Parents are once Admitted, their Children are thereupon Baptiſed, if they were not Baptiſed afore, as ſometimes it falls out. 2. But whether they ſhould thereupon be admitted to all other priviledges when they come to age, without any perſonall profeſsion of Faith, or entring into Church Covenant, is another Queſtion, of which by Reaſon of the Infancy of theſe Churches, we have had no occaſion yet to determine what to judge or practiſe one way or other. 3. But for the preſent this we would ſay; It ſeemes by thoſe words of your Parentheſis (being otherwiſe fit) you do acknowledge, that Children of Church Members are not to be admitted to Church priviledges, unleſſe they be fit, wherein we conſent with you as counting it altogether unſafe, that Idiots, Franticks, or perſons openly ungracious and prophane, ſhould be admitted to the Lords Table, though they were the Children of Church Members, and thence we may inferre the neceſſity of their perſonall profeſsion of their faith, when they come to yeares, and taking hold of Church-Covenant, whereby we meane onelyonly a Renewing of Covenant, or a new profeſsing of their Intereſt in Gods Covenant, and walking according to it, when they ſhall be Adulti: for otherwiſe we do confeſſe, Children that are borne when their Parents are Church Members, are in Covenant with God even from their p. 21birth, Gen. 17. 7. 12. and their Baptiſme did ſeale it to them. But notwithſtanding their Birthright, we conceive there is a neceſsity of their perſonall profeſsion of Faith, and taking hold of Church-Covenant when they come to yeares (though you ſeeme to thinke it not needfull:) for without this it cannot ſo well be diſcerned; what fitneſſe is in them for the Lords Table and other Church priviledges, as by this meanes it might? And inaſmuch as entring into Church-Covenant is nothing elſe but a ſolemne promiſe to the Lord, before him and the Church, to walke in all ſuch wayes as the Goſpel requireth of Church Members, if they ſhall refuſe to make any ſuch promiſe, and ſhall be unable, or unwilling to make any profeſsion of their Faith, when it is required of them, this would be an evidence againſt them, of their unfitneſſe for Church priviledges, inaſmuch as they openly breake that Rule, 1 Pet. 3. 15. Be ready to give a Reaſon of the hope that is in you with meekneſſe and feare. What hope is there that they will examine themſelves when they eat of that Bread and drinke of that Cup, 1 Cor. 11. 28. Who when others do examine them they are unable or unwilling to give Anſwer? Or how ſhall we thinke that they will receive the Lords Supper worthily, or walke as becomes the Goſpel if they do refuſe to profeſſe or promiſe any ſuch matter? Wherefore in this Point we cannot but fully approve the practiſe of the Reformed Churches, among whom it is the manner as Zepporus writeth, to admit Children that were Baptiſed in their Infancy unto the Lords Table, by publique profeſsion of their Faith, and entring into Covenant, conſuetum eſt, ſaith he ut qui per aetatem, neque Doctrina Catechetica perfectum ad ſacram Coenam primum admittuntur, fidei confeſſionem coram tota Eccleſiâ publicè edant, &c. Polit. Ecleſ. l. 1. c. 14. p. 158. that is, The manner is, that they who by reaſon of age and perficiency in the Doctrine of Catechiſme are firſt Admitted to the Lords Supper, ſhould publiquely before the whole Church, make confeſsion of their Faith, being brought forth into the ſight of the Church by their Parents, or them that are inſtead of Parents, at the p. 22appointment of the Miniſter: and likewiſe ſhould promiſe and Covenant by the Grace of God to continue in that faith which they have confeſſed, and to leade their lives according to it: yea and moreover, to ſubject themſelves freely and willingly to the Diſcipline of the Church; theſe words we ſee are full and plaine, that Children are not in thoſe Churches received to the Lords Table without perſonall confeſſion of Faith, and entring into Covenant before.

4. But how long Children ſhould be counted under age, and whether Orphans are not to be admitted with their Guardians (which is your ſixt Quaery) we ſhould be willing to heare your judgement therein, as having of our ſelves hitherto had no occaſion to ſearch into thoſe Queſtions; onelyonly this we thinke, that one certaine rule cannot be given for all, whereby to determine how long they are under age, but according as God gives experience and maturity of naturall underſtanding, and Spirituall; which he gives ſooner to ſome then unto others.

Such Children whoſe Father and Mother were neitherTo 7. of them Believers, and ſanctified, are counted by the Apoſtle (as it ſeemes to us) not faederally holy, but uncleane, what ever their other Anceſtors have been, 1 Cor. 7. 14. And therefore we Baptiſe them not. If you can give us a ſufficient Anſwer, to take us off from that Scripture, 1 Cor. 7. which ſeemes to limit this faederall ſanctity or holyneſſe to the Children whoſe next Parents one or both were Believers, we ſhould gladly hearken to you therein; but for the preſent, as we believe we ſpeake, and practiſe according to our light. And if we ſhould goe one degree beyond the next Parents, we ſee not but we may goe two, and if two, why not 3. 4 20, 100, or 1000? For where will you ſtop? And if we ſhall admit all Children to Baptiſme, whoſe Anceſtors within a thouſand Generations have been Believers, as ſome would have us, we might by this Reaſon Baptiſe the Children of Turkes, and of all the Indians, and Barbarians in the Country; for there is none of them but they have p. 23had ſome Believing Anceſtors within leſſe then a 1000. Generations, it being farre from ſo much ſince Noah and his Sonnes came forth out of the Arke.

We do believe that all Members of Churches ought to beTo 8. Saints, and faithfull in Chriſt Jeſus, Eph. 1. 1. 1 Cor. 1. 2. Col. 1. 2. Phil. 1. 1. and thereupon we count it our duty to uſe all lawfull and convenient meanes, whereby God may helpe us to diſcerne, whether thoſe that offer themſelves for Church Members, be perſons ſo qualified or no: and therefore firſt we heare them ſpeake concerning the Gift and Grace of Juſtifying Faith in their ſoules, and the manner of Gods dealing with them in working it in their hearts: which ſeemes to be your firſt particular in this Quaery. Secondly, we heare them ſpeake what they do believe concerning the Doctrine of Faith, ſo taking a tryall what meaſure they have of the good knowledge of the Lord, as knowing that without knowledge men cannot well Examine themſelves and diſcerne the Lords body, as Church Members ought to doe when they come to the Lords Table. And hereby alſo we would prevent (as the Lord ſhall helpe us) the creeping in of any into the Church that may be infected with corrupt opinions of Arminianiſme Familiſme, &c. or any other dangerous error againſt that faith which was once delivered to the Saints, as knowing how eaſily ſuch men if they were admitted, might infect others, and perhaps deſtroy the Faith of ſome. And this ſeemes to be intended in your ſecond particular. For both theſe we have our warrant as in Generall, from thoſe places which ſhew how Church Members ought to be qualified, that they ought to be Saints, faithfull in Chriſt Jeſus, &c. So in ſpeciall from that, Math. 3. 6. Acts 19 18, & Acts 8. 37. 38. Where men before they were admitted, made profeſsion of Repentance towards God, and faith towards the Lord Jeſus Chriſt; for it is expreſſely ſaid, that they confeſſed their ſinnes, they confeſſed and ſhewed their deeds, they profeſſed their faith in Jeſus Chriſt the Sonne p. 24of God. Thirdly, when this is done, thoſe that by manifeſtation of Repentance and Faith are approved; as fit Members for a Church do openly profeſſe their ſubjection to the Goſpel of Chriſt, and to all the Ordinances of God in that Church, where now they joyne as Members, which ſeemes to be your third particular in this Quaerie. The Diſtinction of particular Churches one from another, as ſeverall and diſtinct Societies, ſeemes to us a neceſſary ground for this practiſe; for without this kinde of Covenanting, we know not how it would be avoyded, but all Churches would be confounded into one, inaſmuch as it is neither Faith, nor intire affection, nor Towne-dwelling, nor frequenting the Aſſemblies that can make a man a Member, or diſtinguiſh Church Members from other men: See the Apologie.

4. Your fourth particular in this Quaerie is Anſwered in the Anſwer to the ſixt Poſition ſent the laſt yeare: Beſides all theſe, we heare the teſtimony of others, if there be any that can ſpeake of the converſion and Godly converſation of ſuch perſons: which we judge to be a warrantable courſe from Acts 9. 26, 27.

It is the ſecond of your Quaeries, what things we hold neceſſaryTo 9. to the Being of a true viſible Church in Generall: which being Anſwere…; this of the Pariſh Aſſemblies in England in particular, whether we hold all or the moſt of them to be Churches, we conceive might well have been ſpared. They that now the ſtate of thoſe Aſſemblies may make application of the Generall to the particulars, if they have a calling therunto. Yet becauſe you are pleaſed to put us to this alſo, we thus Anſwer. 1. That we doubt not but of Ancient time there have been many true Churches in England conſiſting of right matter, and compacted and united together by the right forme of an holy Covenant. For Mr. Fox ſheweth at large, that the Goſpel was brought into England in the Apoſtles times, or within a little while after, Acts & Mo…. lib. 2. begining p. 137. Where hee reporteth out of Gildas, that England received the Goſpel in the time p. 25of Tiberius the Emperor, under whom Chriſt ſuffered; and that Joſeph of Arin. athea was ſent of Philip the Apoſtle from France to England, about the yeare of Chriſt 63. and remained in England all his time, and ſo hee with his fellowes laid the firſt foundation of Chriſtian Faith among the Brittaine people, and other Preachers and Teachers comming afterwards, confirmed the ſame and increaſed it. Alſo the ſaid Mr. Fox reporteth out of T…rtullian, that the Goſpel was diſperced abroad by the ſound of the Apoſtles into many Nations, and amongſt the reſt into Brittaine, yea into the wildeſt places of Brittaine, which the Romans could never attaine unto, and alledgeth alſo out of Necephorus, that Simon Zelotes did ſpread the Goſpell to the Weſt Ocean, and brought the ſame into the Iles of Brittanie, and ſundry other proofs he there hath for the ſame Point. Now if the Goſpel and Chriſtian Religion were brought into England in the Apoſtles times, and by their meanes, it is like there were Churches planted there of Saints by calling (which is the right matter of Churches) and by way of holy Covenant, as the right form: for that was the manner of Conſtituting Churches in the Apoſtles times, as alſo in the times afore Chriſt, as hath been ſhewed from the Scripture in the Apologie. And the footſteps hereof (though mixed with manifold corruptions that have growne in aftertimes) are remaining in many places of the Land to this day, as appeareth by thoſe 3 Queſtions and Anſwers at Baptiſme. Abrenuntias? Abrenuntio; Credis? Credo: Spondes? Spondeo: Doſt thou renounce the Devill and all his works? I renounce them all. doſt thou believe in God the Father &c? I do believe. Doſt thou promiſe to walk according to this Faith &c? I do promiſe. For though it may be they conceived, that men entred into the Church by Baptiſme, yet hereby it appears that their judgment was that, when men entred into the Church there ought to be a renouncing of ſin, and believing on Chriſt, and an open profeſſing of theſe things, with a promiſe to walk accordingly.

Secondly, Though Popiſh Apoſtacy did afterwards for many ages over-ſpread all the Churches in England (as in other Countries) yet we believe God ſtill reſerved a remnant according to the Election of Grace amongſt them, for p. 26whoſe ſake he reſerved the Holy Scriptures amongſt them, and Baptiſme in the name of the Trinity onelyonly. And when God of his rich Grace was pleaſed to ſtirre up the Spirit of King Edward the ſixth, and Queene Elizabeth to caſt off the Pope and all fundamentall errors in Doctrine and Worſhip, and a great part of the Tyranny of Popiſh Church Government though at firſt ſome Shires and ſundry Pariſhes ſtood out againſt that Reformation for a time, yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are publiſhed and conſented to by all the Miniſters endowed in every Congregation, with the ſilent conſent alſo of the people, and ſubſcription of the hands of the chiefe of them; wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or manners, but the holy Scriptures; no divine Worſhip but to God onelyonly; no mediation nor ſalvation but in Chriſt onelyonly: no converſion by mans free will, but by Gods free Grace: no Juſtification but by Faith: no perfection nor merit of works, with ſundry other neceſſary and ſaving truths; all which containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God wich are the foreign, the eloquia Des, concredited onelyonly to the Church. Rom. 3. 1. 2. and which are that ſaving Doctrine of truth, which is fruitfull in all the world where it comes, …olo. 1. 5, 6. and upon which the Church is grounded and built, and which alſo it holdeth forth and maintaineth, 1 Tim. 3. 15.) we do therefore acknowledge, that where the people do with common and mutuall conſent gather into ſetled Congregations ordinarily every Lords day, as in England they do, to heare and teach this Doctrine, and do profeſſe their ſubjection therunto, and do binde themſelves and their Children (as in Baptiſme they do) to continue therein, that ſuch Congregations are true Churches, notwithſtanding ſundry defects and dangerous corruptions found in them, wherein we follow the judgement of Calvin Inſtit. 4. 1. 9. 10. &c. W…itaker, de notis …ccleſiae cap. 17. and many other Divines of chiefe note: nor can we judge or ſpeake harſhly of the Wombes that bare us, nor of the paps which gave us ſuck.

Thirdly, But inaſmuch as grievous corruptions of latter yeares have greatly increaſed in ſome of thoſe Aſſemblies p. 27(as we heare) both in Doctrine, in Worſhip, and in the Government thereof, beſides thoſe that were when ſome of us were there, and in former Yeares: Therefore we are not without feare (and with griefe we ſpeake it) what things may come unto at length. If Corruptions ſhould ſtill increaſe and grow' they might come in time (if the Lord be not more mercifull) unto ſuch an height as unto obſtinacy in evill, and to wilifull rejection of Reformation, and the meanes thereof; and then you know it might be juſt with God to caſt off ſuch utterly, out of the account and number of his Churches; ſo as never to walke among them any more: which we heartily pray the Father of mercies to prevent that ſuch a day may never be: But if Epheſus repent not of her declinings, the Lord hath threatned that he will come unto her quickly, and remove her Candleſticke; that is, he will un-Church them, Rev. 2. 4, 5. and Lukewarme Laodicea ſhall be ſpewed out of his Mouth, Rev. 3. 16. And therefore it behoves ſuch of them to Repent, and Reform themſelves betime, leſt the Lord deale with them as he ha…h done with others.

And it much concernes your ſelves (in hearty love and faithfullneſſe we ſpeake i…, and ſo we deſire you wou…d accept of it) it very much concernes you (deare Brethren) whil'ſt you live amongſt them, to beare faithfull witneſſe againſt the corruptions that are remaining in any of them, in reſpect of their Conſtitution, Worſhip, D…ſcipline and Miniſterie, l…ſt by any ſinnefull ſilence or ſlackneſſe of yours that ſhould blow the Trumpet and ſtand in the gap, the breach ſhould be made wider, and the iniquity increaſe; and leſt men ſhould flatter themſelves in their ſinnes, under the Name and Title of the true Church, as the Jewes thought themſelves ſecure becauſe of the Temple of the Lord, Jer. 7. 4.

4. Becauſe you would know not onelie whether we count thoſe Aſſemblies to b… Churches, but what wee would doe for joining in Gods Worſhip in them, if occaſion ſerved thereunto: We Anſwer, that if we were in England, we ſhould willingly joine in▪ ſome parts of Gods true Worſhip, and namely in hearing the Word, where it is truely Preached in ſundry Aſſemblies there; Yea though we doe not know them to bee Churches, or knew not what they were, whether true Churches or no? For ſome Worſhip, as Praier, and Preaching, and Hearing p. 28the Word, is not peculiar to Church Aſſemblies, but may be performed in other meetings. Mars-hill at Athens was no Church, nor the Priſon at Philippi, and yet the Word of GOD was Preached and heard lawfully w…th good ſucceſſe in th…ſe places, Act. 17. and Act. 16. How much more might it bee lawfull to heare the w…rd in many Pariſh aſſemblies in England, in when gener…lly there is a profeſſing of Chriſt; and in many of them: M…n, Soul…s that are ſincere and upright hearted Chriſtians, as any are this day upon the face of the Earth; and m…ny Congregations indeed that are the true Churches of Jeſus Chriſt, See M^r. Robinſons Treatiſe of the lawfullneſſe of hearing the Miniſters in the Church of ENGLAND.

5. But why we durſt not partake in their preſcript Lyturgie, and ſuch Ordinances though true, as are adminiſtred therein; We gave you account the laſt Yeare, in Anſwer to the firſt and ſecond Poſition: As al…o in an Anſwer to a Diſcourſe of that Subject, Penned by our Reverend Brother Mr. Ball. What we have done in our ignorance whil'ſt we lived amongſt you, wee have ſeene cauſe rather to bewaile it in our ſelves here, then to it in others there.

Our Anſwer to this Queſtion is this, 1. That we never yetTo 10. knew any to come from England in ſuch a manner as you do here deſcribe (… the things you mention may be taken conjunctim, and not ſeverally) viz: to be Men famouſly known to be godly, and to bring ſufficient Teſtimoniall thereof from others that are ſo knowne, and from the Congregation it ſelfe, whereof they were Members: We ſay we never yet knew any to come to us from thence in ſuch a manner, but one or other of the things here mentioned are wanting: and generally this is wanting in all of them, that they bring no Teſtimoniall from the Congregation it ſelfe: And therefore no marvell if they have not beene admitted (further then before hath been expreſſed in Anſwer to Queſt. 1.) to Church Ordinances with us, before they have joyned to one or other of our Churches; for though ſome that come over bee famouſly knowne to our ſelves to be Godly, or bring ſufficient Teſtimoniall with them from private Chriſtians, yet neither is our knowledge of them, nor Teſtimonal from p…ivate Chriſtians ſufficient to give us Church-power over them, which wee p. 29had need to have, if we muſt diſpence the Ordinances of Church communion to them? though it be ſufficient to procure all due Reverent reſpect, and hearty love to them in the Lord.

2. If the things mentioned were all to be found, yet it w…u…d be alſo requiſite (if they would partake of Church Ordinances with us, and yet not joyne to any of our Churches) that w… ſhould know the Congregation it ſelfe, from which they come, not onelyonly to be a true Church, but alſo what manner of one it is: For ſuch perſons cannot communicate with us in Church Ordinances in their owne right; becauſe they joine not as Members in any of our Churches; but it muſt be in right of the Congregation in England, to which they doe belong, and by virtue of the communion of Churches, and ſo our admitting of them to communion with us in ſuch a manner, and upon ſuch terms, is not only an Act of Communion with the perſons themſelves, but alſo with the Congregation of which they are: Now as we cannot of Faith admit men to Church Ordinances, which we believe belong only to Church Members; unles we know the Congregation of which they are Members to be a true Church. So ſomtimes a Congregation may be ſo corrupt, that though it doe remain a true Church, yet for the corruption and impurities of it, it may be lawfull and neceſſary to withdraw communion from the ſame (for which Dr. Ames gives ſundry grounds and Reaſons, Caſ. Conſ. lib. c. 12. Q. 3. Reſp. 2.) or at leaſt to proteſt againſt ſome groſſe corruptions therein. In regard whereof we had need to have ſome knowledge and information what that Congregation is, with whom now we have Church communion; when in heir right wee admit m…n into communion, that wee may know how to admit ſuch M…n, and what to require from them more or l…ſſe. And this together with that want of teſtimoniall from the congregation is one main… Reaſon, why ſome few godly men that have come from England upon occaſion, not with purpoſe of continuance here, but of returning again…; have not beene received to Church Ordinances during thei… abode in the Countrey (though this we may ſay alſo, that we know not of any ſuch that have requeſted to be received) whereas …uch as have come in l…ke manner from one C…u…ch to another m…ngſt our ſelves, upon their requ…ſt have been r…ceived: the Reaſon ne ſay is, becauſe theſe Churc…es are better p. 30knowne then the Pariſh Aſſemblies are.

3. But if men come from one Church in this Countrey to another with purpoſe there to ſtay, and not to returne to the Church from whence they came, (which is the manner of all, or the moſt that come from England) they are not rec…ived into our Churches; but upon the very ſame tearmes, and in the ſame manner, as men are received that come from England; viz: upon perſonall profeſſion of their faith, and entring into Church Covenant, in that Church to which they now come (And the ſame we ſay of ſuch as come from any of the Churches in other Countries) and wherefore are they not received otherwiſe, becauſe we renounce the Church of which they were Members as no true Church? Not ſo, but becauſe wee believe in matter of Faith, (ſuch as is the admitting of Members) any true Church may erre: and there may now bee ſeene ſome unworthineſſe in the man which did not appeare when hee was admitted in the other Church: and therefore no reaſon that the Act of one Church in the admitting of Members or the like, ſhould bee a binding Rule unto another; for all Churches are left to their liberty to admit and receive ſuch into their Chu…ch; as they ſhal find to be fit according to the Rule of the word, and to refuſe others, without reſpect of what they have bin before, whether Members of this Church, or that Church, or of any Church, or none: and therefore in this, our walking and practice, is alike towards one another, and towards others as it is towards yours. In which practiſe we are not alone, for the very ſame as Mr. Parker reporteth, is the manner of the Reformed Churches, amongſt whom, no man is admitted for a Member; but upon perſonall profeſſion of faith, and entring into Church covenant, though it may be he have formally beene admitted in the very ſame manner in the Church where he lived before, Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 16. 3. 4. p. 171.

If the ground of this Qu. were any doubt in your owne conſciencesTo 11. concerning your owne way, there were no fault in propounding ſuch a Qu. for further light and ſatisfaction, if wee were able to give it. Or if it did ari…e from any unneceſſary intermedling of ours in your matters, ſo as to take on us to condemne or judge your preſent ſtanding, when we have no calling p. 31thereunto, there were then Reaſon why we ſhould give account of our owne doings or ſayings. But if it came from ſome men we ſhould looke at it as a tempting Queſtion, tending onelyonly to make matter, and pick quarrells; and then we ſhould leave it to them that framed it, to conſider the ground of it; and to fr…me their owne Anſwer to it. As for us, we have alwayes been ſlow and loth to judge or condemne your preſent ſtanding; remembring the ſaying of the Apoſtle, Who art thou that judgeſt another Mans Servant, he ſtandeth or falleth to his own Maſter, Rom. 14. 4. But now knowing you well (Reverend and Deare Brethren) and your integrity, we thinke wee may lawfully and ſafely Anſwer, and that wee would doe by promiſing a few diſtinctions, for explaining the Termes of the Queſtion.

1. Concerning the perſons in the Pariſh Aſſemblies, which may be meant of ſuch as the providence of God hath ſo diſpoſ…d that they are free and at liberty: or of ſuch as are bound, and it may be not ſui juris, as Wives, Children under the government of Parents, Servants, Apprentices, Priſoners, Sickefolkes, &c.

2. Concerning the Pariſh Aſſemblies, which may bee meant either of ſuch as want the Preaching of the Word or Sacraments, or Diſcipline, or any other holy Ordinance of Chriſt, or have many Ordinances in them which are not of God, but of Men: or elſe it may be meant of ſome others, which in both reſpects are Reformed and pure, if there be any ſuch.

3. Concerning ſtanding in them, which may be meant onelyonly of habitation, and dwelling upon Houſe or Land within the Precincts of the Pariſh; or elſe in conforming in judgement or practiſe to the corrupt Ecc…eſiaſticall Ordinances uſed in thoſe Aſſemblies; and contenting themſelves therewith.

4. Concerning lawfull and ſafe; where ſafety may be meant either of ſafety from ſinne, or from danger by perſecution, theſe Diſtinctions wee judge neceſſary to bee premiſed, becauſe your Queſtion is, whether wee count your ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies lawfull and ſafe; or how farre it may be ſo? And ſo our Anſwer is in 3. Propoſitions.

1. Some Perſons, and namely thoſe that are not ſui juris, may lawfully and without ſinne; though it may bee not ſafely without danger of perſecution, continue ſuch ſtanding in the Pariſh p. 32Aſſemblies, as doe dwell within the Pr…c…cts of them, ſo long as they neither conforme themſelves to the corruptions of men by ſuch continuing of their ſtanding, nor live in the neglect or want of any Ordinance of CHRIST through their owne default.

2. Such ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies, where a man ſhall, and muſt conforme to the corruptions of men, in Doctrine or Worſhip; or the Government of the Chu…ch, is not lawfull for any to be continued in.

3. To continue ſuch ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies, as to live in the want of any Ordinance of Chriſt is not lawfull, nor can be done ſafely without ſinne of them, to whom the providence of God doth open a doore of further enlargement.

The firſt of theſe Propoſitions wee ſuppoſe you doubt not of.

The ſecond is confirmed by many places of Scripture; and namely by ſuch as theſe. Though Iſrael play the Harlot, yet let not Iudah offend, and come not yee to Gilgall, nor go up to Bethaven, nor ſweare the Lord liveth: Ephraim is joyned to Idolls, let him alone, Hoſ, 4. 15. 17. Come out from among them, and be ye ſeparate ſaith the Lord, and touch no uncleane thing, and I will receive you, 2 Cor. 6. 17. Be not partaker of other Mens ſinnes, keep thy ſelfe pure, 1 Tim. 5. 22. Come out of her my People, that yee bee not partakers of her ſinnes, and that yee receive not of her Plagues, Rev. 18. 4. Have no fellowſhip with the unfruitfull works of darkeneſſe, but reprove them rather, Eph. 5. 11. Ephraim is oppreſſed and broken in judgment; becauſe he willingly walked after the Commandement, Hoſ. 5. 11. Wee ought to obey God rather then Men, Act. 4 19. and 5. 29. Jeroboam made Prieſts of the loweſt of the People, which were not of the ſonnes of Levi, and ordained a Feaſt in the fifteenth day of the Eigth MonethMonth, in the Month which he had deviſed of his …w…e heart, &c. and then the Levites left their Suburbs and their poſeſſions, and came to Iudah and Ieruſalem, for Ieroboam and his Sonnes had caſt them off from executing the Prieſts Office unto the Lord; and after them out of all the Tribes of Iſraell, ſuch as ſet their hearts to ſeek the Lord God of Iſrael, came to Ieruſalem to Sacrifice to the Lord God of their Fathers, 1 King. 12. 31 32 33. with 2 Chron. 11. 14. 16. VponUpon theſe and ſuch like grounds of holy Scripture p. 33we are perſwaded that ſuch ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies, as this ſecond Propoſition mentions, is not lawfull for any to be continued in. And we hope, you doubt not of the truth of this ſecond Propoſition neither, though we are afraid that many Chriſtians, when it comes to practice, doe ſinfully pollute themſelves by partaking in the Ceremonies, and other corruptions in the prayers, in the Doctrine, and in the Miniſtery remaining in ſundry of thoſe Aſſemblies, whom it will bee your part whilſt you live among them faithfully and by all good meanes to inſtruct and teach, and exhort, to ſave themſelves from the corruptions and pollutions of the times and places wherin they live; as well in this particular of Church matters, and Gods Worſhip as in other things: Wherein wee wiſh with all our hearts that our ſelves when time was, had been more watchfull and faithfull to God and the ſoules of his People, then the beſt of us were: The Lord lay not our Ignorance to our charge.

The third Propoſition may bee made good ſundry wayes, 1. By precepts, wherin we are commanded to obſerve all things whatſoeuer Chriſt hath commanded, Mat. 28. 20. to ſeeke the Kingdom of God and his Righteouſneſſe, Mat. 6. 33. to yeild our ſelves unto the Lord, and to enter into his Sanctuary, 2 Chr. 30. 8. And therefore we may not pleaſe our ſelves to live in the neglect of any Ordinance which he hath inſtituted and appointed. 2. By examples, for the Spouſe of Chriſt will not reſt ſeeking her beloved untill ſhee finde him in the fulleſt manner, Cant. 1. 7, 8. and 3. 1, 2. &c. and the ſame minde was in David; as appeares by his heavy Lamentation, when he wanted the full fruition of Gods Ordinances, and his longings, and prayer to be reſtored thereto, Pſal. 63. and Pſal. 42. and 84. although he enjoyed Abiathar the High Prieſt, and the Ephod with him; and likewiſe Gad the Prophet, 1 Sam. 23. 6, 9, 10. &c. 1 Sam. 22. 5. when good Ezra in his journey from Babilon to Ieruſalem, viewing the People at the River Ahava found none of the Sonnes of Levi there, afore he would goe any further, he ſent unto Iddo a the place Ca…iphia for Miniſters for the Houſe of God, Ezra 8. 15. 16. &c. And when being come to Ieruſalem they found by the law, that it was an Ordinance of God to dwell in Boothes, and keepe the Feaſt of Tabernacles in the ſeventh p. 34Month, they preſently ſet upon the practice thereof, in the appointed ſeaſon; when the like had not beene done in Iſrael, from the dayes o… Ioſhua the ſon of Nun unto that day, Neh. 8. 14. &c. Yea, and our Lord Jeſus himſelfe, though …ee had no need of Sacraments, to be to him any ſcale of Remiſſion or forgiveneſſe of ſinnes, yet in conſcience to the Ordinance of GOD, (that he might fullfill all righteouſneſſe, Mat. 3. 15▪) and for our example, did both obſerve the Paſſover, and likewiſe was Baptized, and did eat with his Diſciples at his laſt Supper. All which examples being written for our learning, doe ſhew us how farre wee ſhould bee from contenting our ſelves to live in the Voluntary want of any Ordinance and appointment of GOD.

3. There is none of the Ordinances of Chriſt, but they are needfull and very profitable in the right uſe of them to the ſoules of his Servants: And therefore they ſhould not be neglected. To thinke of any of them, as things that may well bee ſpared; and therefore to content our ſelves to be without them, is to call in queſtion the wiſdome of him that did appoint them, and to make our ſelves wiſer then God.

4. Our owne infirmities and Spirituall w…nts are ſuch, as that wee have continuall need of all the holy meanes which the Lord hath appointed, for ſupplying what is wanting in us; for correcting what is amiſſe; and for our continuance and growth in grace. Hee is a proud man, and knowes not his own heart in any meaſure, who thinkes he may well be without any ſpirituall Inſtitution and Ordinance of Jeſus Chriſt. Upon theſe and ſuch like ground, we hold i… not lawfull nor ſafe, for any Chriſtian that is free, to continue ſuch ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies where he cannot enjoy all the ſpiritual and holy Ordinances of Chriſt. And hereupon we do exhort you lovingly in the Lord, to take heed that this be not the ſinne of any of you, nor of any other, whom your example may embolden thereunto: For neceſſity is laid upon you, and upon all Chriſtians, by th…ſe and ſuch like grounds of the holy word of the Lord; That neither you, nor others doe live in the voluntary want of any holy Ordinance of Chriſt Jeſus, but either …et them up, and obſerve them in the places where you are; or elſe (if you bee free) to remove for the enjoyment of them, to ſome place where they p. 35may be had; and it may be of the two, rather this latter. For ſometimes i… Iſrael Sacrifice to their God in the Land, they ſhall Sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the Lord: And …o ſay they, ſhall wee ſacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not ſtone us? It is better therefore in ſuch a caſe to goe into the Wilderneſſe, and to do it there, Exo. 8. 25. 26, 27. Hoſ. 2. 14. Mat. 10. 23.

As for that opinion that may be in the minds of ſome, that if any Obj:Ordinance of Goa be wanting, it is the ſinne of them that are in Authority, and they muſt anſwer for it? But the people of God may without ſinne, live in the want of ſuch Ordinances as Superiors provide not for them.

The Anſwer hereuntois, that indeed the Ordinances of GodAnſw: may more peaceably and quietly bee obſerved where the Commandement and countenance of Magiſtrates is afforded; for then is fullfilled the ſaying that is written, Kings ſhall bee thy nurſing Fathers, and Queens thy nurſing Mothers, Eſa. 49. 23. and doubtleſſe it is a great bleſſing, when God (that hath the hearts of Kings and Princes in his hands, Prov. 21. 1.) doth incline them to favour, and further the ſervice of the Houſe of GOD, as ſomtimes he doth, even when themſelves are Alients and Strangers. Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes, gave great countenance and incouragement to the Jewes to build the Houſe of God, that they might offer ſacrifices of ſweet ſavour to the God of Heaven, and pray for the life of the King and of his Sonnes, Ezra 6. 8 9, 10. I… which caſe good Ezra bleſſeth the Lord, that had put ſuch a thing into the Kings heart, to beautifie the Houſe of the God of Heaven, Ezra 7. 27. And therefore Kings and all in Authority, ſhould be prayed for, that we may lead a godly and peaceable life, in Godlineſſe and honeſty, 1 Tim. 2. 1, 2. Nevertheleſſe, the things that are ordained and commanded of GOD, the obſerving of them in a peaceable way (yeilding out reverence to all that are in Authority, and praying for them) this obſerving of the Ordinances of God cannot be unlawfull, for lack of the Commandement of Man, as appeares by the doctrine and pract…ce of the Apoſtles, Act. 4. 19. & 5. 29. and the approved practiſe of Believers in their times, if they had neglected the Ordinances of God and namely Church Ordinances, till they had had the commandement of Magiſtrate therein, ſuch neglect would have p. 36beene their grievous ſinne, and for ought we know they might have lived and died without them, the Magiſtrates at that time be…ng all either Heathens or Jewes, yet enemies; and if Church Communion and the exerciſe of ſuch Ordinances, as Chriſt hath appointed for his Churches, was lawfull, and needfull, and profitable, when Magiſtrates were enemies to the Goſpell; and bee not ſo when Magiſtrates doe profeſſe the Goſpell, we doe not ſee but Chriſtians may ſometimes be loſers by having Chriſtian Magiſtrates, and in worſe condition, then if they had none but profeſſed E…emies. Beſides this, if▪ Superiors ſhould neglect to provide bodily ſuſtenance for them that are under their charge; we doe not thinke that any Mans Conſcience would be ſo ſcrupulous, but hee would thinke it lawfull b…y all good meanes to provide for himſelf in ſuch caſe, rather then to ſit▪ ſtill and ſay, if I periſh for hunger, it is the ſinne of them that have Authority over mee, and they muſt anſwer for It: Neither can we tell how the Conſcience of any Chriſtian can excuſe himſelf, if he thinks no… the Ordinances of Chriſt, as neceſſary for the good of his ſoule, as food is neceſſary for his temporall life; or doe not willingly in this ſpirituall hunger break through ſtone Walls as the Proverbe i…, and runne from Sea to Sea to ſeeke God in his owne way, rather then to periſh without ſpirituall food, becauſe others provide not for him.

And this is our Anſwer to this eleventh Quere, concerning your ſtanding in the Pariſh Aſſemblies: which Anſwer of ours, and the exhortation therein, as we pray the Father of mercies to make effectuall by his bleſſing for thoſe good ends, which wee intend therein, ſo wee cannot in the ſame, but reflect upon our ſelves and our owne wayes in times paſt; as ſeeing not a little cauſe to judge our ſelves before the Lord, as long as wee live, for our ſinfull ignorance and negligence, when wee were in England, …o obſerve and walke according to thoſe Rules of the Word, which now upon occaſion given by this Qu. wee doe commend to your ſelves and other Chriſtians. The Lord in mercy pardon our offences, and direct your ſelves and his ſervants in …ur deare Native Countrey, both in remaining and removing to doe that which is pleaſing in his ſight.

Whereas this Qu. in the firſt clauſe and laſt but one comparedTo 12. p. 37together ſpeakes of Believers out of the Kingdome of GOD, and poſſibility of ſalvation, we conceive it is a contradiction, for thoſe that are true Believers, cannot be out of poſſibility of ſalva…on, but poſſibly may, yea moſt undoubtedly ſhall bee ſaved, Joh. 3. 16. and 5. 24. the contrary whereof is to overthrow all the promiſes of the Goſpell, and with the Papiſts and Arminians to eſtabliſh falling from grace.

2. For that ſaying, Extra Eccleſiam non eſt ſalus, wee conceive it cannot be univerſally true, if it be meant of the viſible Church, which in the New-Teſtament is a particular Congregation; but onelyonly being taken for the Church inviſible, or the Vniverſall Church, which is the whole company of the elect in Heaven, in Earth, and not yet borne, Ioh. 10. 16. and 17. 20. out of which elected Company there is not one that ſhall be ſaved, nor any of the elect neither, but in the way of Regeneration, Ioh 3. 3. but as for the Viſible, we believe the old ſaying is true, there are many Wolves within, and many Sheepe without, Joh. 10. 16. and therefore it cannot be univerſally true, that out of the Viſible Church there is no ſalvation: Inaſmuch as all Chriſts Sheepe ſhall be ſaved, Ioh. 10. 28. of whom yet notwithſtanding there are ſome not joyned to the Viſible Church: If the Thiefe that repented on the Croſſe was a Gentile, as it was poſſible he was; then hee was uncircumciſed, and then it will trouble a Man to tell of what Viſible Church he was: and yet there is no doubt but he was ſaved. The like may be ſaid of Iob and of his friends, of whoſe ſalvation we make no queſtion, and yet it is a great queſtion whether they were of any Viſible Church or no, inaſmuch as the Viſible Church in thoſe times ſeemed to be appropriated to the Houſe and poſterity of Abraham, Iſaac, and Iacob, of which line & race it cannot eaſily be proved that all theſe men did come, nor that they joined themſelves in Viſible fellowſhip with that Church. The Centurion, Mat. 8. 10. and the Woman of Canaan, Mat. 15. were both of them believers and ſaved, and yet it doth not appeare that they were members of the Viſible Church of the Iews, which was the only viſible Church of God in thoſe times.

Men of yeares ought to be believers, and ſo in the ſtate of Salvation afore they be joyned to the Viſible Church, and therefore there may be ſalvation out of that Church: For it is poſſible p. 38that ſuch an one as being a Believer is fit to bee joyned to the Church m…y di… and depart this life afore hee can bee joyned, as that good Emperour Valenti…ian 2. died before hee could bee baptize…. And for your ſelves if you ſhould thinke that Baptiſme makes men members of the Viſible Church; as is intimated in your fourth Queſtion: you may not then deny but there may be ſalvation out of the viſible Church: unleſſe you will ſay that there is no ſalvation without Baptiſme, which we believe is farre from you to imagine.

3. We doe hold that ſo; oft and ſo long as a believer doth not joyne himſelfe as a Member to ſome particular Congregation or other, ſo oft and ſo long: he is without the Church in the Apoſtles ſence, 1 Cor. 5. for the Church in the Apoſtles ſence, is a particular Congregation; for he writeth to, and of the Church at Corinth, which Church was a particular Congregation, 1 Cor. 5, 4, & 14. 23. & 11. 17. 20. and having power of judgeing her own Members (as all viſible Churches have) yet had no power of Judgeing any, but ſuch as were within that particular Congregation, as all them they had power to judge, whether they were believers in Chriſt or no. Mr. B…i… (as we ſaid before) is very large and cleare in proving this Poſition, that the Churches inſtituted by Chriſt and the Apoſtles, were only ſuch as might meet in one Congregation ordinarily, and anſwers many objections to the contrary, Di…ceſ. tryal. Q. 1.

4. For the Queſtion it ſelfe, we hold that every believer (if poſſibly he can) is alwayes bound to joyne himſelfe as a Member to ſome particular Congregation or other; and yet not becauſe, elſe he is a Heathen and Publican, or out of poſſibilitie of ſalvation, as this Queſtion ſuggeſts, but upon other grounds.

1. Becauſe of the Commandment of God, Cant. 1. 8. Math. 6. 10. 33.

2. Becauſe willingly not to doe this is a ſecret diſparagement to the wiſdome of God that hath ordained▪ Churches with giving power and privilegdes therunto Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. and promiſes of his gracions preſence to be with them and amongſt them, Mat. 18. 20. Rev. 2. 1. Exod. 20. 24. Now to what end were all theſe, if believers ſhould live and no… joyne themſelves to ſome Church? Theſe priviledges and promiſes would in ſuch caſe be all in vain, and the mercy of God offered therin, unthankfully neglected.

p. 39Thirdly, voluntarily abſtaining from joyning to the Church is noted and condemned as a ſinne, Heb. 10. 25. and a ſigne of fearefull unbelievers, Act. 5. 13. of the reſt durſt no man joyne unto them.

Fourthly, good men in Scripture have been forward in practiſe this way, Iſay 2. 2, 3. Zach. 8. 23. Act. 2. 41, 42. and 9. 26. and have mourned with much bitterneſſe when they have been deprived of Liberty ſo to doe, Iſay 56. 3. and Pſ. 42. and 63. and 84.

Fiftly, this joyning is a part of that Order, and orderly walking which is required of believers, Col. 2. 5. 1 Cor. 14. 40.

Sixtly, If Believers doe neglect this joyning, it is not onelyonly a wrong to themſelves, but alſo a great unkindneſſe to God: for if one believer may doe this, why not another, and if two why not three, foure &c. and▪ if all believers ſhould doe thus, God ſhould have no viſible Churches upon Earth, unles he will acknowledge the Aſſemblies to be of unbelievers Churches: foras ſtones in the Mountains are not an houſe untill they be joyned together, though they be digged up out of the Quarry, and ſquared & hewn, and hereby are made fit to be joyned together, and ſo to become an houſe: ſo believers are not a Church till they be joyned in holy Covenant in ſome Congregation, though the worke, of Grace and Faith in their ſoules have made them fit, and meete to be a Church of God, which is the Houſe of the living God: or as the humane ſoule and body are not a man unleſſe they be united; ſo Chriſtian or believers are not a viſible Church without viſible union into ſome particular. Congregation. Mr. Perkins having ſaid that forth of the militant Church: there are no meanes of ſalvation, no preaching of Gods word, no invocation of Gods Name, no Sacraments, and therefore no Salvation; concludes with theſe words; For this cauſe every man muſt be admoniſhed evermore to joyn himſelfe to ſome particular Church, being a ſound Member of the Catholick Church, Expoſ. of Creed in the Article of the Church; and Doctor Ames gives 6. Reaſons, why every Chriſtian ſhould ioyne himſelfe to ſome particular Church or other Caſ. Conſ…. L. 4. c. 24. Q. 1. and in another place he hath theſe words. Illi igitur qui▪ occaſion… p. 40habent adjungendi ſeſe Eccleſiae, & …am negligunt, graviſsimè peccant, non tantum in Deum ratione Inſtitutionis, ſed etiam in ſuas proprias animas ratione benedictionis adjunctae, etſi obſtinatè perſiſtant in ipſa incu…ia, quicquid alias profitentur, vix poſſunt haberi pro fidelibus Regnum Dei verè quaerentibus. Medul. Theol. l. 1. c. 32. Sect. 28.

Firſt, whereas this 13th. Queſtion ſpeakes of privateTo 13. and illiterate perſons into a Church Body combined, wee looke at this as an incongruous expreſſion, if not a contradiction. For a company ſo combined as to make a Church, are not fitly called private, (though they be illiterate in reſpect of humane learning) in as much as a Church or a Church-body, eſpecially in times and places of peace and liberty, is a publike Congregation and ſociety: and the acts of Communion which they have among themſelves (ſuch as is the election and depoſing of Miniſters, whereof the Queſtion makes mention) are not private acts but publike or people-like. Neither are literate or learned men therefore publike, becauſe they are indued with humane learning, unleſſe withall they be called to publike office or imployment in Church or Common-wealth: and therefore if illiterate be an exegeſis of private, we conceive that exegeſis is not good.

Secondly, whereas this Queſtion asketh Whether it be lawfull and convenient that ſuch a company ſhould themſelvs ordinarily examine elect, ordain and depoſe their owne Miniſters? if ordinarily be as much as frequently, we anſwer three things. Firſt, that if one Church doe frequently come to ſuch actions, that is, to take in and put out the ſame men, this is not without ſuſpition of much levity and raſhneſſe in the people, or unfaithfulneſſe or unworthy walking in the Miniſters, or both; and therefore ordinar…ly, that is, frequent taking in and putting out againe in this manner, is as much as may be to be avoided. Secondly, when ſuch things doe often and frequently fall out, it is doubtleſſe a Judgement of God upon ſuch a people to have ſo many changes in their Miniſters; as was that of which it was ſaid, three ſhepheards have I cut off in one monethmonth, Zach. 11. 8. that People ſhould be ſo oft as p. 41ſheep having no Shepheard; for the tranſgreſsion of a land many are the Princes thereof, Pro. 28. 2. So in like ſort for the tranſgreſsions of a Church many are the Miniſters thereof; we meane, when they have many Miniſters, by the comming in and going out of the ſame men, or the removing of ſome and the taking in of others in their roome: for otherwiſe, it is a bleſsing of God, when a Church is furniſhed with variety of Miniſters at the ſame time, Acts 13. 1. & 21. 18. Phil. 1. 1. Thirdly, yet this word (ordinarily) doth ſeeme to imply, that in your judgement ſometimes this may be lawfull and convenient to be done; Now upon the ſame ground on which it may be done ſometimes, upon the ſame it may be done at other times, if there be juſt occaſion.

Thirdly, for the aſsiſtance of the Miniſters of other Churches, of which this Queſtion maketh mention, if this be onelyonly by way of counſell or advice, we know nothing unlawfull or inconvenient in ſuch aſsiſtance, becauſe Churches are as Siſters one to another, Cant. 8. 8. And therefore it is our practice in ordination of Miniſters, as alſo in removall of them, to have ſuch aſsiſtance. But for authority and power, we know none that Miniſters have properly ſo called in any Congregation or Church, ſave that one, over which the Holy Ghoſt hath made them overſeers: and therefore we thinke it not lawfull nor convenient, when a Church is to ordaine Officers, to call in ſuch aſsiſtance (viz. by way of authority or power) of the Miniſters of other Churches.

Fourthly, we judge it lawfull and convenient that every Church of Chriſt (what ever their humane learning be, whether much or leſſe) ſhould elect and chooſe their Miniſters: God doth not (for ought we know) give this power of calling their owne Miniſters unto ſuch Churches as have many learned men in them, and deny it unto others; but gives it indifferently to every Church, as they are a Church, and ſo to one Church as much as to another. If we thought you doubted whether the power of calling Miniſters were given by Chriſt unto the Church, we might here alledge many Reaſons for it; but this being the conſtant judgement p. 42of the eminent Lights of this age, and the former who have been ſtudious of Reformation, wee muſt hope (till we hear to the contrary) that your ſelves do not differ from them in this point. As for us, thoſe grounds and reaſons from the holy Scripture which are alledged by 1 Calvin, 2 Zanchius, 3 M^r Cartwright, 4 D^r Ames, and (5) others doe ſatisfie us in this particular. (1) Institut 4. 3. 14. 15. (2) De redemp. in 4. praecep. p. 1015. 1016. &c. who alledgeth Bucer and Muſculus. (3) 1. Reply p. 44. &c. (4) M…dul. Theol. l. 1. c. 21. Sect. 30 & caſ. conſc. lib. 4. c. 25. Q. 5. (5) Demoniſt. of diſc. c. 4.

Fifthly as for that objection which ſeemes to be implyed in the word illiterate, that it ſhould not be lawfull or convenient for a body to chooſe their owne Miniſters, becauſe they are illiterate, or want men of humane learning among them, wee further anſwere thereto; firſt, that among us when a company are to be combined into a Church-body, (as you ſpeake) there is uſually one or other among them who doe not want all humane learning but have been trained up in Univerſities and uſually have been Miniſters and Preachers of the Word in our native Countrey, and approved by the godly there; and are here by the company that doe ſo combine intended to be choſen afterwards for Paſtors or Teachers: and accordingly, after the Church is gathered, are in due time elected and ordained into their places. Secondly, but yet if there were none ſuch among them at their firſt combining and uniting, we doe not ſee how this could hinder them of liberty to chooſe Miniſters to themſelves afterward, when God ſhall ſend any to them that may be fit for the worke; becauſe this is a liberty that Chriſt hath purchaſed for them by his precious bloud, and they that are fit matter to bee combined into a Churchbody, are not ſo illiterate but they have learned the Doctrine of the holy Scripture in the fundamentall points thereof; they have learned to know the Lord and their owne hearts, they have learned Chriſt, the need they have of him, and of all the meanes of enjoying him, the worth that is in him, and the happineſſe laid up for them in him: and p. 43therefore they may not be reproached as illiterate or unworthy to chooſe their owne Miniſters: nay, they have the beſt learning, without which all other learning is but madneſſe and folly, and ſcience falſly ſo called, 1 Tim. 6. 20. and indeed of none account with God, nor available for direction and guidance in the affaires of the houſe of God, ſuch as is this election of Miniſters, nor for the ſalvation of the ſoule in another world, 1 Cor. 1. 19. 20. & 2. 14▪ Job 32. 8. 9. though it may be, and is very uſefull therewith. Thirdly, you know and (we doubt not) doe abhorre as much as wee the ſpirit of thoſe men that are proud of their owne learning, and vilified Believers in Chriſt for want thereof, ſaying, Doe any of the Rulers, or of the Phariſees believe in him? but this people which know not the Law are curſed, John 7. 47. 48. 49.

Firſt, a company of fourty perſons, or twenty, or leſſe, isTo 14. not ſuch a ſmall company, but they may be a Church properly and truely ſo called, if there be nothing againſt them but this, that ſuch a number may ſeeme not ſufficient: We do not finde that God doth any where ſay, they muſt be above fourty, or elſe they cannot be a Church; and therefore no mortall man can juſtly ſay it: Nay, rather that ſpeech of Chriſt, of two or three gathered together in his name, Matth. 18. 20. doth plainly imply that if there be a greater number then two or three, whom they being not ſatisfied in the anſwere of an offendor may appeale unto, and in ſo doing tell the Church, ſuch a ſmall number may be a Church, and may have the bleſsing of his preſence to be among them. Beſides, the time hath been, in the dayes of Adam and Noah, when there was not fourty perſons in the world, and yet Adams family in his time, and Noah… in his, was in thoſe dayes a Church, if there was any Church on earth. And if Chriſt and his twelve Diſciples were the firſt Chriſtian Church, it is too much for any man to ſay, that twenty or fourty is ſuch a ſmall company that they cannot be a Church.

Secondly, for the matter of Government, there is a difference between ability and right: In reſpect of the former, p. 44in as much as ſome caſes are more difficult then others, and ſome Churches of leſſe ſpirituall abilities then others, and God doth not afford aſsiſtance and direction at ſome times ſo much as at others; therefore in ſuch caſes it is requiſite that Churches ſhould ſeeke for light, and counſell, and advice, from other Churches: as the Church at Antioch did ſend unto the Church at Ieruſalem in a Queſtion, which could not bee determined among themſelves, Act. 15. 2. But this is not becauſe they have no right, but when they are not able.

Thirdly, as for right let it be conſidered how the Church at Antioch did long endevour to have ended that matter amongſt themſelves, before they determined to ſend to Ieruſalem, verſ. 2. which ſhewes that they had power or right to have tranſacted that buſineſſe among themſelves, if ability had ſerved; or otherwiſe, that endevour had been ſinfull, as being a preſuming to doe that, whereunto they had no right. We conceive then that every Church, properly ſo called, though they be not above fourty, or twenty perſons, or ten, or the leaſt number that you mention, have right and power from Chriſt to tranſact all their owne Eccleſiaſticall buſineſſes among themſelves, if ſo be they be able, and carry matters juſtly, and according to the Rules of the Word. The power of the Keyes, Matth. 16. 19. among other things noteth Miniſteriall or delegated power of Government; and this power is committed by Chriſt unto the Church, as may appeare, if wee conſider, firſt, to whom Chriſt directed his Speech in that place of Scripture; not to Peter alone, but to all the Diſciples alſo, for to them all the Queſtion was propounded by Chriſt, verſ. 15. And …eter anſwered in all their names.

Secondly, that he and they were not then looked upon as Apoſtles, or generall officers of all Churches (for that Commiſſion was not yet given them) but as Diſciples and Beleevers, believing with the heart, and confeſſing with the mouth Jeſus Chriſt, the rocke upon whom the Church is built; wherein as they did repreſent all Believers, ſo in Peter and the reſt, the Keyes are committed to all Believers that ſhall joine together in the ſame confeſſion, according p. 45to the order and ordinance of Chriſt. And therefore afterward this power of Government is expreſly given to the Church, Matth. 18. 17. according hereunto in that deſcription of the viſible Church, as it is inſtituted by Chriſt in the new Teſtament, Rev. 4. The members of the Church are ſeene by John in a viſion ſitting on thrones, cloathed with white rayment, having on their heads Crownes of Gold, verſ. 14. Now Thrones and Crownes are enſignes of authority and power, to note unto us that authority and governing power, which is committed by Chriſt unto the Church. Doctor Fulke hath this ſaying; The Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven (whatſoever they are) be committed to the whole Church, and not to one perſon onelyonly, as Cyprian, Auguſtine, Chryſoſtome, Jerome, and all the ancient Doctors (agreeably to the Scriptures) doe confeſſe, againſt the Popes pardons chap. 3. P. 381. And elſewhere he ſaith; The authority of Excommunication pertaineth to the whole Church, although the judgement and execution thereof is to be referred to the Governours of the Church; which exerciſe that authority, as in the name of Chriſt, ſo in the name of the who…e Church whereof they are appointed Governours, to avoid confuſion: againſt the Rhemiſts on 1 Cor. 5. Sect. 3.

And Doctor Whitaker hath theſe words: Hoc eſt quod nos dicimus Petrum geſſiſſe perſonam omnium Apoſtolorum; quare hanc promiſſionem non uni Petro, ſed toti Eccleſiae factam eſſe, & totam Eccleſiam in illo claves accepiſſe. De pontif. Roman. Q. 2. c. 4. Sect. 17. And in that Booke hee is pregnant and plaine in this, that by the Keyes is meant all Eccleſiaſticall power and Juriſdiction, and that theſe Keyes are given in Peter to the whole Church: The ſame is alſo taught by Maſter Parker Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5, 6. where he proves by many Arguments, that every viſible Church (which hee acknowledgeth to be no other but a particular congregation) hath the power of all Eccleſiaſticall Government and Juriſdiction commited to it by Chriſt Jeſus; and anſwereth many Objections to the contrary: And page 2 of that third Book, making mention of foure Opinions concerning thoſe words of the Keyes, and power of binding and looſing p. 46Matth. 16. 19. the firſt of them that underſtand the Pope onelyonly to be meant thereby as Peters ſucceſſour: the ſecond of them that underſtand it of the Dioceſan Biſhop: The third of them that underſtand thoſe words as meant of the Miniſters but the Miniſters alone: The fourth of them that underſtand Peter to repreſent the Church in that place, and therefore that that promiſe is made unto the Church: Of theſe he refuſeth the three firſt as unſound, and maintaines the fourth as onelyonly agreeing to the truth. And Maſter Baine ſaith, Every Church by Chriſts inſtitution hath power of Government, Dioceſ. Tryall Queſt. 1. p. 8. And hee tells us page 11. what hee meant by Church: The word Church (ſaith he) wee underſtand here not figuratively tataken Metonymically for the place, Syn…cdochecally for Miniſters adminiſtring ordinances; but properly, for a body politicke ſtanding of People to be taught and governed, and of Teachers and Governours: So that in his judgement every Church (properly ſo called) hath power of Government within it ſelfe: and by theſe words of his it may alſo be concluded, that all power of Government is not in the Elders alone for the power of Government by Church inſtitution is in every Church properly ſo called; But Miniſters are not a Church in propriety of ſpeech, but onelyonly figuratively by a ſynecdoche; And therefore all power of Government is not in the Miniſters alone, but a Church properly ſo called is the Body politique, conſiſting of people and Miniſters: But of this more may bee ſaid in the next Queſtion.

Fourthly, for the matters of Independency, whereof this Queſtion alſo makes mention: We doe confeſſe the Church is not ſo independent but that it ought to dep…nd on Chriſt both for direction from the rules of his holy Word, Ioh. 10. 27. Act. 3. 23. and for the aſsiſtance of his holy Spirit, to diſcerne thoſe rules, and to walke according to them when they ſhall be diſcerned, Ioh. …5. 5. and 16. 13. but for dependency upon men, or other Churches, or other ſubordination unto them in regard of Church Government or power, Wee know not of any ſuch appointed by Chriſt in his Word. Our Saviours words are plaine, If a man heare not p. 47the Chu…ch, let him beto thee as an Heathen or Publican. And his promiſe unto his Church is plaine alſo, that whatſoever they ſhall binde on earth, ſhall be bound in Heaven, &c. Mat. 18. 17. &c. And the Apoſtle bids the Church deliver the impenitent ſinner unto Satan, 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5, 6. Now when the man upon the Churches cenſure comes to be in caſe as an Heathen or Publican, yea becomes bound in Heaven as well as bound in earth, and alſo delivered unto Satan, this ſeems to us to be ſuch a firme ratification of the Churches cenſure, as leaves no roome for any other Eccleſiaſticall power on earth to reverſe or diſanull the ſame, and ſo takes away that kinde of dependency and ſubordination of Churches. Nos plane dicimus …ccleſias initiò regi ſolitas eſſe à ſuis paſtoribus, ſic quidem ut nullis eſſent externis, aut Eccleſi…s, aut Epiſcopis ſubditae, non Coloſſenſis, Ephaeſi…ae, non Philippenſis, Theſſalonienſi, non h… Romanae, non Romanae cuiquam, ſe… paris omnes inter ſe juris eſſent, id eſt, ſui omnes juris et mancipij Whitak de Pontif. Roman. Queſtion 1. Chapter 1. Section 3. That is in ſumme. The Churches were not dependent and ſubordinate to others, but all of them abſolutely free, and independent. Wee affirme ſaith Maſter Baine, that all Churches were ſingular Congregations equall in dependent each of other in regard of ſubjection, Dioceſſe tryall. Q 1. pag. 13. The twentieth Chapter of Mr. Parker his third Booke of Eccleſ. Politie, hath this Title De ſummitate Eccleſiae particularis. And the Title of the 21. is, De paritate Eccleſiarum, where he openeth and explaineth, and by many Arguments and Teſtimonies confirmeth what we hold of the independency and paritie of Churches, to which learned diſcourſe of his, we referre you for further ſatisfaction in this point.

Wee doe believe that Chriſt hath ordained that thereTo 15. ſhould be a Presbytery or Elderſhip, 1 Tim. 4. 14. And that in every Church, …it. 1 5. Acts 14. 23. 1 Cor. 12. 28. whoſe worke is to teach and rule the Church by the Word and lawes of Chriſt, 1 Tim. 5. …7 and unto whom ſo teaching and ruling all the people ought to be obedient and ſubmit themſelves, Heb. 13. 17. And therefore a Government meerly Popular or Democraticall (which Divines and Orthodox duplicate page p. 44duplicate page p. 45duplicate page p. 46duplicate page p. 47p. 48Writers doe ſo much condemne in Morillius, and ſuch like) is farre from the practice of theſe Churches, and we believe farre from the minde of Chriſt.

Secondly, nevertheleſſe a Government meerely Ariſtocratical, wherein the Church government is ſo in the hands of ſome Elders, as that the reſt of the body are wholly excluded from entermedling by way of power therein, ſuch a government we conceive alſo to be without Warrant of the Word, and likewiſe to be injurious to the people, as infringing that liberty which Chriſt hath given to them in chooſing their owne Officers, in admitting of Members, and cenſuring of offendors, even Miniſters themſelves when they be ſuch; as the Church of Coloſſe muſt admoniſh Archippus of his duety, Col. 4. 17. Maſter Parker you know hath 22. Arguments to prove the ſuperiority of the Churches over and above her officers, Polit. Eccleſ. lib. 3. cap. 12. And Maſter Baine ſaith, If the Church have power by election to chooſe a Miniſter, and ſo power of inſtituting him, then of deſtituting alſo: Inſtituere & deſtituere ejuſdem eſt poteſtatis, Dioceſ. Triall P. 88. And againe, no reaſon evinceth the Pope, though a generall Paſtors ſubject to the cenſure of a Church oecumenicall, but the ſame proveth a Dioceſan Biſhop (and wee may adde, and a Congregationall Miniſter) ſubject to the cenſure of the particular Church, pag. 89. And whereas it might be objected, then may Sheep cenſure the Shepherd, Children their fathers, which were abſurd. To this he anſwereth, that ſimilitudes hold not in all things, naturall Parents are no waies Children, nor in ſtate of ſubjection to their Children: but ſpirituall fathers are ſo fathers, that in ſome reſpects they are children to the whole Church. So Shepherds are no waies Sheep, but Miniſters are in regard of the whole Church. 2. Parents and Shepherds are abſolutely Parents and Shepherds, bee they good or evill, but ſpirituall Parents and Paſtors are no longer ſo, then they do accordingly behave themſelves p. 89. (To the ſame purpoſe and more a… large is this Objection anſwered by Maſter Parker, Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 12. p. 78. 79. And againe, if their owne Churches have no power over them, it will be hard to ſhew wherein others p. 49have ſuch power of Juriſdiction over perſons who belong not to their owne Churches, p. 89. So that all power is not in the Officers alone, ſeeing the Officers themſelves, if they offend, are under the power of the Church. Even Paul himſelfe though an extraordinary Officer, yet would not take upon him to excommunicate the inceſtuous perſon, without the Church, but ſends to them exhorting them to doe it; and blames them becauſe they had not done it ſooner, 1 Cor. 5. which ſhewes that the exerciſe of all Church power of government, is not in the Officers alone: And therefore the Lord Ieſus reproving Pergamus and Thyatira for ſuffering Balaamites, Nicholaitans, and the woman Iezebel among them, and calling on them for reformation herein, Rev. 2. ſends his Epiſtle, not onelyonly to the Angels of thoſe Churches, but alſo to the Churches, or whole Congregations, as appeareth Rev. 1. 11. And alſo in the concluſion of thoſe Epiſtle, where the words are, let him that hath an eare heare what the ſpirit ſaith, (not onelyonly to the Angels) but unto the Churches; whereby it appeares, that the ſuffering of theſe corrupt perſons and practiſes, was the ſinne of the whole Church, and the reforming of them, a duty required of them all▪ Now the reforming of abuſes in the Church, argues ſome exerciſe of Church government, as the ſuffering of them argues ſome remiſſeneſſe therein; and therefore it followes, that ſome exerciſe of Church government was required of the whole Church and not all of the Angels alone. Sure it is the whole Congregation of Iſrael thought it their duty to ſee to the reforming of abuſes, when they appeared to ſpring up amongſt them, as appeareth by their behaviour & practiſe when the two Tribes and an halfe had ſet up the Altar upon the bankes of Jordan, Ioſ. 22. for it is ſaid, that the whole Congregation of the Children of Iſrael gathered themſelves together at Shilo, to go up to warre againſt them, v. 12. And when Phineas and ten Princes with him, were ſent to expoſtulate with them about the matter, it was the whole Congregation that ſent them, v. 13, 14. And when they delivered their Meſſage they ſpake in the name of the whole Congregation, ſaying, Thus ſaith the whole congregation of the Lord, what treſpaſſe is this? &c. v. 16. p. 50which plainely declares, that the whole congregation (and not the Elders or Rulers alone) thought it their duty to ſee abuſes reformed and redreſſed, which could not be without ſome exerciſe of government. And when Achan the Sonne of Ca…mi had committed a treſpaſſe in the accurſed thing, …iſ. 7. it is counted the ſinne of the whole congregation and ſuch a ſinne as brought a Plague upon them all: for it is ſaid the children of Iſrael committed a treſpaſſe in the accurſed thing, v. 1. And God ſaith to Ioſhua (not the El…ers have ſinned, but) Iſrael hath ſinned, and they have tranſgreſſed my Covenant, and they have ſtolne of the accurſed thing, and put it among their owne ſtuffe. v. 11. And for this, wrath fell on all the congregation of Iſrael, and that man periſhed not alone in his iniquity, Ioſh. 22. 20. Now why ſhould not he have periſhed alone, but wrath muſt fall upon them all? and why ſhould his ſinne, be the ſinne of all the congregation, if the care of preventing it, and timely ſuppreſsing the ſame, (which could not be without ſome exerciſe of Church government) had not bin a duty lying upon all the whole congregation, but upon the Elders and Officers alone? doubtleſſe the juſt Lord, who ſaith, every man ſhall beare his owne burden, Gal. 6. 5. would not have brought wrath upon all the congregation for Achans ſinne, if ſuch government as might have prevented, or timely reformed the ſame, had not belonged to the whole congregation, but to the Elders alone. And before this time all the children of Iſrael (and not the Elders alone) are commanded to put Lepers and uncleane perſons out of the Campe, Numb. 5. 1, 2. By all which it appeareth, that all exerciſe of Church Government is not in the Elders alone, but ſome power is in the people.

And elſe-where he counts it no Sacriledge for Members of the Church, though not in office, to handle thoſe keyes, Mat. 16. but rather a frivolous thing to thinke otherwiſe; Quaſi abſque ſacrilegio, ſaith he, tractare claves priva…i nequeant, qui e…s privatim tractare jubeatur. Quoties fratres ſuos admonere, conſolari, et aedificare. Imò ve…ò eſt & publica clavium tractatio quam plebs Chriſtiana in unum coacta ſine ullo ſacrilegio miniſtrat, 1 Cor. 5. Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 2. p. 8. And yet this is not a p. 51ſingular conceit of his or ours, but the concurrent judgement of many worthy witneſſes of the truth in theſe latter dayes, who do with great conſent hold the Eccleſiaſticall government to be of a mixt form compounded of all three Eſtates, and that the people are not to be wholly excluded from having any thing to do therein. Si velimus Chriſtum ipſum respicere, fuit ſemper Eccleſiae Regimen monarchicum: Si Eccleſiae preſbyter…s, qui in Doctrina et diſciplina ſuas partes agebant, Ariſtocraticum: ſi totum corpus Eccleſiae quatenus in Electione Epiſcoporum et preſbyterorum ſuffragia ferebat, it a tamen ut foreign ſemper à preſbyteris ſervaretur, Democraticum: Sic partim Ariſtocritum partim Democraticum, partim etiam Monarchicum eſt, ſemper que fuit Eccleſiae Regimen, Whita. de pontif. Rom. Qu. 1. c. 1. ſect. 2. The Church (ſaith Mr. Cartwright) is governed with that kinde of Government, which the Philoſophers that write of the beſt Common-wealths affirme to be the beſt. For in reſpect of Chriſt the head it is a Monarchy, and in reſpect of the Ancients and Paſtors that Governe in Common and with like Authority among themſelves, it is an Ariſtocraty, or rule of the beſt men; and in reſpect that the people are not ſecluded, but have their intereſt in Church matters, it is a Democraty, or popular State, 1 Reply p. 51. And when Dr. Whitegift, from the Doctrine of the Authors of the Admonition would infer this conſequence, viz. that then the more that ruled the better eſtate it ſhould be, and ſo the popular ſtate ſhould be the beſt: In Anſwer hereunto he ſaith, I have ſpoken of this before, where I declared that the mixed eſtate is beſt, both by the example of the Kingdome of Chriſt, and alſo of this our Realme, pag. 181. 182. And againe, whereas Mr. Dr. ſaith, that Excommunication, and conſequently Abſolution or reſtoring to the Church again pertaineth only to the Miniſter: it remaineth that I ſhew that the Preſbytery or Elderſhip, and the whole Church alſo, hath intereſt in the excommunication, and conſequently in the abſolution or reſtoring unto the Church againe, p. 183. And againe, it is certaine Saint Paul did both underſtand and obſerve the rule of our Saviour Chriſt (viz. that rule, p. 52Mat. 18. Tell the Church) but he communicateth this power of Excommunication with the Church: and therefore it muſt needs be the meaning of our Saviour Chriſt, that the Excommunication ſhould be by many, and not by one, and by the Church, and not by the Miniſter of the Church alone, for hee biddeth the Church of Corinth twiſe in the firſt Epiſtle, once by a Metaphor, another time in plaine words, that they ſhould Excommunicate the Inceſtuous perſon. And in the 2^d. Epiſtle, underſtanding of the Repentance of the man, he intreateth them that they would receive him again: And therfore conſidering that the Abſolution of the Excommunication doth pertain unto the Churches, it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertainunto it, p. 184. And again that the Ancients had the ordering of theſe things, and that the peoples conſent was required, & that the Miniſters did not take upon them of their own Authority to Excommunicate, &c. It may appeare almoſt in every page of Cyprians Epiſtles. In Auguſtines time it appeareth alſo, that that conſent of the Church was required, p. 187.

To theſe may be added, Mr. Fenner, who ſpeaking of the Eccleſiaſticall Preſbytery, and of the buſineſſe which the Preſbytery is to deale in, which hee diſtinguiſheth into judiciarie, as deciding of doubts, and diſpencing of Cenſures. and extrajudiciary, as Election, Ordination &c. hath theſe words, Atque haec ſunt negotia quae praeſtari debent: In quibus per omnes Eccleſias ſumma Eccleſiaſtica poteſtas preſbyterio demandata eſt, ita tamen ut in his quae maximi ſunt momenti, et ad eccleſiae totius bonum velruinam maxime ſpectant, poſt foreign ſuam de his captum conſilia Eccleſiae denunciantur, ut ſi quid habeant quod conſulant vel objiciant in …edium proferant: poſtea, autem auditis et aſſentien ibus (niſi ad majorem Senatum negotium deferri fuerit, neceſſe ad turbas vita…das ſive componendas, quod tum cum Major pars Eccleſiae diſſentit, faciendum eſt) decervenda et pro decretis Eccleſiis pro…onenda ſunt, and then he declares what hee meanes by thoſe matters maxim momenti, viz. excommunication, abſolution, elections, and depoſings of Miniſters and ſuch like, Sacrae The. lib. 7. c 7. wherin he plainly ſheweth, that though the power p. 53of the Preſbytery be very great yet in things of greateſt moment, as Cenſures and Elections, the people if they have any thing to counſell or object, have liberty to bring it in; and afterwards matters are to be concluded when they have bin heard ſpeake, and have given their conſent, for which liberty and power of the people, he bringeth theſe Scriptures, 2 Chro. 30. 23. Acts 1. 15. 23. 26. 1 Cor. 5. 4. & 2 Cor. 1. 6. 7. Zanchius ſpeaking of that Queſtion, per quos exerceri debet excommunicatio, anſwers thus, nempe per Eccleſia…, ſeu per miniſtros Eccleſiae nomine, eoque et cum conſenſu totius Eccleſiae Promiſſio illa, Quaecun que ligaveritis, ad totam Eccleſiam eſt facta, Ergo &c. Praeterea Apoſtolus hoc expreſſius declaravit, 1 Cor. 5. congregatis vobis, &c. alloquebatur autem totam Eccleſiam. Patres idem docent: Cyprianus ad Cornelium Rom. Epiſcopum ſeribit ſe multum laboraſſe apud plebem, ut par daretur lapſis p…enitentibus: Si ergo non erat unius Epiſcopi cum ſuo Preſbyterio ſolvere quempiam, ſed requirebatur plebis eoque totius Eccleſiae conſenſus: Ergo neque ligari quiſpiam poterat, id eſt Excommunicari, ſine totius Eccleſiae conſenſu. Auguſtinus etiam contra Donatiſtas ait, ſuperſedendum eſſe excommunicatione Quando tota plebs laborant eodem merbo, Quid ita? cauſam adfert, Quia inquit, non aſſentientur excommunicationi. &c. Satis aperte docet tunc temporis non ſolitum fuiſſe excommunicationem ferri in Quempiam ſine totius Eccleſiae conſenſu; et ratio eſt in promptu, Quae enim adomnes pertinent eum conſenſu omnium fieri debent: Ergo ſine totius Eccleſiae conſenſu excommunicari nemo debet. And then comparing the Government of the Church, to the Roman Common-wealth which had the Dictators, the Senate and the Quirites, and ſhewing that the Church government in reſpect of Chriſt is a Monarchy, in reſpect of the Preſbyters an Ariſtocratie, and in reſpect of the people a Democratie, he concludes thus, In rebus igitur graviſſimis, quae ad totum corpus pertinent, uti eſt Excommunicatio, ſine conſenſu et authoritate totius Eccleſiae nihil fieri debet, de Redempt, in prae c. 4. pag. 983. &c. Calvins words are theſe, Cyprianus cum meminit per quos ſuo tempore exerceretur (viz. poteſtas juriſdictionis) adjungere ſolet totum Clerum Epiſcopo, ſed. libi quoque demonſtrat, ſic praefuiſſe clerum ipſum, ut plebs inter…m à cognitione non excluderetur, ſic enim ſcribit; Ab initio Epiſcopatus mei ſtatui ſine Cleri conſilio & plebis p. 54conſenſu nihil agere, Instit. 1. 4. c. 11. Sect. 6. And againe, Hoc addo, illam eſſe legitimam in excommunicando homine progreſſionem quam demonſtrat Paulus, ſi non ſoli Seniores ſeorſim id faciant, ſed conſcia & approbante Eccleſia, in eum ſcilicet modum, ut plebis multitudo non regat actionem, ſed obſervet, ut teſtis & cuſtos, ne quid per libidinem à paucis geratur, Inſtit. l. 4. c. 12. Sect. 7. Thoſe Miniſters that penned the Chriſtian and modeſt offer of diſputation, doe ſay, That the Paſtor and Elders that exerciſe Eccleſiaſticall Juriſdiction, ought not to performe any maine and materiall Eccleſiaſticall act, without the free conſent of the congregation, in Propoſ. 8.

The Refuter of Doctor Downams Sermon for the ſuperiority of Dioceſan Biſhops, is plaine and full alſo in this point, in Part 2. of his reply p. 104 105, 106. where anſwering Doctor Downam, that counted it ſchiſmaticall novelty, that the forme of the Church Government ſhould be holden in part to be Democrattcall, and that his Refuter for ſo holding was a Browniſt or Anabaptiſt; he not onelyonly proves the power of the people from the Scripture, and delivers his owne judgement, that the Eccleſiaſticall Government is of a mixt forme, compounded of all three Eſtates; but for the ſame tenent, and that the Church government is in part Democraticall or popular, he alledgeth the teſtimonies of the Centuries, of Illyricus, of Doctor Fulke. Doctor Willet, Cyprian, Auguſtine, P. Martyr, Dr Whitaker, and others: Maſter Baines his judgement we heard before in the former Queſtion. Vrſinus ſpeaking of that Queſtion. Quibus commiſſa est poteſtas clavium▪ hath theſe words: Quibus denunciatio verbi divini delegata eſt, iiſdem & poteſtas illa clavium; quae verò denunciatio fit in Eccleſiaſtica diſciplina eſt totius Eccleſie, ad totam enim Eccleſiam pertinet diſciplina & juriſdictio ſpiritualis, ſed alio modo fit illa denunciatio in verbi divini miniſterio, quam in Eccleſiae judicio. And then telling how this denunciation is done in the Miniſtery, and by the Miniſters of the Word, he comes to declare how it is done in Church cenſures: In Eccleſiaſtico judicio (ſaith he) gratiae & irae Dei non fit denunciati. ab uno aliquo privatim▪ ſed à tota Eccleſia aut nomine totius Eccleſiae' ab its qui ad hoc delecti ſunt communi omnium conſenſu. And a little after anſwering objections brought againſt the p. 55uſe of Excommunication, he hath theſe words: Poteſt concedi quod Chriſtus non intelligat Presbyterium (viz. in that place Matth. 18. Tell the Church) ſed propriè ſumat vocabulum Eccleſiae ante Chriſtum Jdaicae…, poſt Chriſtum Chriſtianae: Sed in Eccleſiae juriſdictione oportet aliquem eſſe ordinem, aliquos oportet eſſe conſtitutos ab Eccleſia, alioquin eſſet foreign. And ſpeaking of that Queſtion, Quis ordo ſervari debeat in exercenda clavium poteſtate (he ſaith) principalis pars in excommunicatione eſt denunciatio, qua &c. atque haec denunciatio qua quis excommunicatur non eſt penes Miniſtrum Eccleſiae, ſed penes ipſam Eccleſiam, & ejus nomine fit, quia mandatum hoc à Chriſto datum eſt Eccleſiae; nam ipſe ait expreſsè, Dic Eccleſiae. And finally, ſpeaking of abuſes to be avoided, and cautions to be obſerved in Excommunication, he hath ſuch words in the fourth Propoſition, or Rule there annext, as doe declare it to be his judgement▪ that if Excommunication ſhould be paſſed by a few, without the conſent of the whole Church, ſuch proceedings would be both Oligarchy and Tyranny: Attentem expendatum (ſaith he) à toto Presbyterio, probetur ab Eccleſia, non ſuſcipiatur privat â authoritate, ne miniſterium Eccleſiae convertatur in foreign & Tyrannidem, in his Comment upon the Catechiſme, in the place De clavibus regni coelorum.

Pareus delivering certaine poriſmata or, concluſions concerning Excommunication, hath this for the fifth of them, Quòd excommunicandi poteſtas non fit penes unum Epiſcopum, vel paucos paſtores, ſed penes Eccleſiam; proindelicet paſtores & presbyteri ordinis cau▪ â primas habeant partes circa cenſuras Eccleſiaſticas, & per eos h… adminiſtrentur; quod tamen citra conſenſum Eccleſiae paſtores ad excluſionem proced…re non debeant, alibi demonſtravimus in 1 Cor. 5. And a little after, anſwering Stapletons objections that would have the power of Excommunication to be in the Biſhop alone▪ he brings in the caſe of Cyprian, who could not abſolve the Lapſi without the people: Cyprianus (ſaith hee) ad Cornelium Romanum Epiſcopum ſcribit ſ… multum apua plebem laboraſſe ut pax daretur lapſis, quam ſi per ſe dare potuiſſet, non erat cur adeo in perſuadenda plebe ſe fatigaſſet. So that in the judgement of Pareus and Cyprian all power of Church government was not in the Presbyters, p. 56but ſome power was in the people.

Muſculus, although he thinke there be little uſe of Excommunication and Church diſcipline, where there is a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, yet when it is to be uſed, he would not have the people excluded from having any hand therein, as may appeare by thoſe words of his, where he ſpeakes De diſciplina Eccleſiaſtica: Hiſce de rebus non conſtituet Miniſter ſuo proprio arbitratu, ſed erit ad inſtitutionem earum director, & adhibebit ſuffragia & conſenſum ſue plebis, ne quicquam invitae Eccleſie imponatur. Denique curabit ut plebs ipſa viros graves, timentes Dei, ac boni teſtimonii deligat, quorum curâ & vigilantiâ diſciplina Eccleſiaſtica adminiſtratur, & ſi quid gravioris momenti accidat, ad ipſam Eccleſiam referatur: Loc. com. de Miniſtris verbi Dei, in tit. de poteſtate Miniſtrorum p. 377. And afterward, in the latter end of that place, comming to ſpeake of the depoſing of unworthy Miniſters, he hath theſe words: Quaeritur hic per quos diſciplina ista adminiſtrari debeat? Reſpondeo, primum Eccleſiae populus poteſtatem habens elegendi dignum Miniſtrum, habet etiam (teſte Cypriano) poteſtatem indignum recuſandi: deinde qui Judices ſunt Cenſoreſque morum in Eccleſia ex officio tenentur redargnere peccantem Miniſtrum, ſi duobus aut tribus teſtibus fide dignis coram Eccleſia Dei convictus fuerit. Tertiò, iidem cum conſenſu & ſuffragiis plebis deponent Miniſtrum, vel ad ltempus, vel in univerſum, vel excommunicabunt tandem juxta quaitatem peccati vel defectus illius, p. 429. Doctor Ames ſaith, Poteſtas hujus diſciplinae (viz. of Excommunication) quoad jus ipſum pertinet ad Eccleſiam illam in communi, cujus membrum eſt peccator: ad illos enim pertinet ejicere, ad quos pertinet primò admittere, & corporis totius intereſt ex aequo membrorum conſervatio vel amputatio, cum Eccleſi… idcirco conſenſu (eoque Magiſtratu non permittente tantum, ſed & approbante & conſtituente) eſt executioni mandanda. Medul. Theol. l. 1. c. 37. Sect. 26.

Laſtly, Maſter Parker obſerving a diſtinction betweene power, and the diſpencing of power; that the one is in the Church and the other in the Presbyters, hath theſe words: Neque tamen dispenſatio omnis, omneque exercitum eſt penes rectores ſolos, ſed juxta temperamentum formae partim Ariſtocratice, partim Democraticae de manda…ae Rectoribus ſuis Eccleſi…, que ipſa per ſe obire ſatis commodè nequit, retinente vero diſpenſationem illam p. 57illudque exercitium quod & ipſi convenit, & pertinet ad ejus lignitatem, authoritatem, & libertatem à Chriſto donatam. Poſit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 7. And elſewhere he ſaith, Imo vero eſt & publica clavium tractatio, quam plebes Chriſtiana in unum coacta, ſine ullo acrilegio adminiſtrat. Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3 c. 2 p. 8.

Theſe teſtimonies we thought good to produce in this Queſtion, leſt any ſhould thinke that to give any Church power of Government to the people, were ſome ſingular opinion of ours, ſwerving from the truth, and diſallowed by Orthodox Writers of the Reformed Churches; and no doubt but beſides theſe here cited, the ſame is taught by …thers alſo, whom now we ſpare to alledge, intending onelyonly …heſe few for a taſte inſtead of many.

2. And therefore when this Queſtion demandeth whe…her we give the exerciſe of all Church power of government to the whole Congregation, or to the Presbyters thereof alone? Our Anſwer is, neither thus nor ſo, neither all to …he people excluding the Presbytery, nor all to the Presbytery excluding the People. For this were to make the government of the Church either meerly Democraticall, or meerly Ariſtocraticall, neither of which we believe it ought to be.

3. Whereas this Queſtion demandeth to know what acts of Government the Presbyters may doe more then any other may doe, and to have thoſe particular acts mentioned: this ſeemeth to us to be a very large demand, for who is able to mention all the particular acts of government, which any one Governour may performe in his time, eſpecially if he continue long in his place? But if your meaning in this Point be not of the Individualls, but of the ſpecies or kinds, yet even there alſo it is much to require the particular mentioning of all; yet to give you a taſte take theſe. The calling of Aſſemblies and diſmiſsing of the ſame againe; The ordinary preaching of the Word, which is done by way of Office; and being the peoples mouth unto God in Prayer; The diſpenſing of Baptiſme, and the Lords Supper: The permitting of any to ſpeak in an orderly way; and againe enjoining ſilence: The putting of matters to Vote, and pronouncing of ſentence in the cenſure of offendors, or receiving p. 58in of Penitents after their fall, and bleſsing of the people in the name of the Lord; Theſe are Acts of Church Government, which the Presbyters may doe according to the Word and another member may not do without breach of Order and preſuming above his place.

4. It is alſo here demanded, what the Presbyters may do without the particular conſent of the reſt? To which wee anſwer, that when they doe what the Lord Chriſt (whoſe Stewards they are) by his word requires of them in their places, this ſhould not be without the conſent of the reſt, …or the reſt of the Church ought to conſent thereto: Chriſts Sheep ought to heare his voice, Iohn 10. 27. and to obey them that ſpeak unto them in his name, Heb. 13. 17. And if any man ſhould in ſuch caſe willfully diſſent, the Church ought to deale with ſuch an one, for not conſenting to the will and waies of Chriſt, or elſe they ſhall all be guilty of the ſinfull diſſent of ſuch an one. So that this Paſſage (if it be meant of Presbyters doing their duty) without the conſent of the people, goes upon a ſuppoſall (in reſpect of the people) of that which never ought to be, neither are wee to ſuppoſe but that there may be rule when the Elders and Brethren doe not diſſent nor are divided one from another: The multitude of them that believed in the firſt Chriſtian Church at Ieruſalem, were of one heart and of one ſoule, A l. 4. 32. Yet none needs to doubt, but there was rule and Government amongſt them, when yet their agreement was ſuch, that the Apoſtles and Flders did nothing without the full conſent of the reſt. It is a miſerable miſtake either to thinke that in the Church of Chriſt the Elders and Brethren muſt needs diſſent one from another, or if they all conſent, that then there can be no ruling but againſt the peoples minde. They were none of the beſt Shepheards to their flocks unto whom the Lord ſaith, with force and rigour have you ruled them. Ezech. 34. 4. As for doing any thing in their places▪ which the word of Chriſt, the Lord and Maſter of the Church, commandeth not, nor alloweth ſuch things▪ they neither ought to do nor ought the Church to conſent unto them if they ſhould; for that were to make themſelves partakers of their Rulers ſinnes, and ſo to bring p. 59Judgement upon them all, as when the Prieſts did wickedly beare rule, and the people loved to have it ſo, Ieremiah 5. 31.

5. Laſtly, this Queſtion demandeth how, and over whom in thoſe Acts of Government, which are done by the Elders more then by other Members, or without the conſent of the reſt, the Presbyters doe rule in propriety of ſpeaking more then the reſt of the Congregation? wherein are ſundry particulars.

1. How they rule? Whereunto wee anſwer, that neither the Elders nor the people doe rule with Lordly and Princely rule, and Soveraigne authority and power; for that is proper to Chriſt over his Church: who is the onelyonly Lord, 1 Cor. 12. 5. And King and Lawgiver that is able to ſave and to deſtroy, Iſa. 33. 23. Pſal. 2. Luk. 19. 27. Jam. 4. 12. The Elders are forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage, 1 Pet. 5. 3. Or to exerciſe authority as the Kings and Princes of the earth doe, Matth. 20. 25, 26. Luk. 22. 25, 26. They are not ſo to rule, as to doe what themſelves pleaſe, but they muſt do whatſoever Chriſt hath commanded, Mat. 28. 20. Mr. Baine ſheweth from theſe words there are diverſities of Miniſteries, but one Lord, 1 Cor. 12. 5. That it is contrary to the Scripture that there ſhould be in the Church more Lords then one: (and ſaith he) look as great Lords have in their Houſes Miniſters of more and leſſe honour, from the Steward to the Scullery, but no Lord-like or Maſterlike power in any beſides themſelves: So is it with Chriſt and his Church, which is the Houſe of God, wherein hee is the Lord, Apoſtles and others having more or leſſe honourable ſervices, but no Maſterlike power over the meaneſt of their fellow ſervants: On Epheſ. 1. 22. p. 395. and elſewhere he ſaith, no Miniſter of the Word hath any power but Miniſteriall in the Church, the power of the Apoſtles themſelves and Evangeliſts is called foreign, Acts 20. 2 Tim. 4. Yea ſuch a ſervice as doth make the Miniſters having it ſo ſervants, that they are no way Lords; many Miniſters, one Lord; we preach Chriſt Ieſus the Lord; our ſelves your ſervants for Ieſus ſake, Dioceſ. Tryall. Q. 2. p. 74. The Elders are to rule as Stewards, Mat. 24. 45. Luke 12. p. 6042. As Shepheards, Act. 20. 28. As Captaines, guides, leaders or overſeers, by going before the People, and ſhewing them the word and way of the Lord, 1 Tim. 3. 1. 5. & 5. 17. 1 Theſ. 5. 12. H…b. 13. 17.

2. How they rule more then the reſt of the Congregation do? Whereto the Anſwer is, that this is more then the reſt of the Congregation doe in theſe acts, even as acting is more then conſenting, and as it is more to be a Steward over of the Houſe then one of the houſehold, or to be a guide or leader, then to be guided or led.

3. Over whom they doe rule? even over the whole Church in generall, and every Member in particular, even all the flocke over which the Holy Ghoſt hath made them overſeers, Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 3. 2.

The rule is expreſſe and plaine that women ought not toTo 16. ſpeake in the Church, but to be in ſilence, 1 Cor. 14. 34. 1 Tim. 2 11, 12. And therefore they ought not to vote in Church matters; beſides voting imports ſome kind of government, and authority and power: now it is not government and authority, but ſubjection and obedience which belongs unto women, by the rule, and ſo is the practice of women amongſt us.

Church matters ought not to be determined meerly byTo 17. multitude or plurality of Votes, but by rules from the word of Chriſt, whoſe will▪ (and not the will either of the Major, or Minor part of men,) is the onelyonly rule and Law for Churches, Iam. 4. 12. Iſa. 33. 22. Mat. 23. 8, 9. Exod. 23. 2. 21. 22. For our practice among us, the Major part of the Church, yea uſually the whole Church doth conſent and agree in one minde, and one judgement, and ſo gives a joint unanimus Vote; and the rule requires it ſhould be ſo Rom. 15. 6. and the example of the Primitive Apoſtolike Churches, where things were carried (nor meerly by the Major or Minor part, the reſt diſſenting, but) foreign, or with one accord. Act. 1. 14. & …. 46 & 4. 24. & …. 12. & 15. 25. So that in this ſence, matters with us are carried according to the Vote of the Major part, that is, with the joint conſent p. 61of the whole Church, but yet becauſe it is the minde of Chriſt. But it may be your meaning is in this Queſtion to take it for granted that the Churches will be divided in their Votes, and to know what courſe we take at ſuch times: But if Churches lay aſide their owne affections, and give attendance to the rule, and be (as all Churches ought to be) men of humble ſpirits, and ſincere, and withall depend on Chriſt their head and King for guidance, in their worke, we know no neceſsity of ſuch a ſuppoſall, that they muſt needs be divided in their votes, eſpecially conſidering what promiſes he hath made unto his Church, of godly concord and agreement among themſelves, and of his owne gracious preſence in the midſt of them, Ier. 32. 39. Zeph. 3. 9. Mat. 18. 20. which promifes we believe are not in vaine. Nevertheleſſe, we deny not but through the corruptions & diſtempers of men, ſome diſſention may ariſe for a time in a true Church, as it was in the Church at Corinth: and if any ſuch thing fall out among us (which we bleſſe God is not often) then before matters be put to the vote, our courſe of proceeding is after this manner. If the Elders and Major part of the Church conſent in one concluſion, yet if any brother diſſent, he is patiently heard, and his alledgements of Scripture or good reaſons are duely weighed: If it appeare that his judgement is according to the rule, the whole Church will readily yeeld, though before they were otherwiſe minded. But if it appeare they who diſſent from the Major part, are factiouſly or partially carried, the reſt labour to convince them of their error by the rule, if they yeeld, the conſent of all comfortably concurreth in the matter; if they ſtill continue obſtinate, they are admoniſhed, and ſo ſtanding under cenſure, their vote is nullified. If they without obſtinate oppoſition of the reſt, doe diſſent ſtill, yet referre the matter to the judgement of the Major part of the body they are not wont to proceed to ſentence (if the matter be weighty as in Excommunication) till the reaſons on both ſides have bin duly pondered, and all brotherly means have been uſed for mutuall information and conviction. If the difference ſtill continue the ſentence (if the matter be weighty) is ſtill demurred, even till other Churches have p. 62been conſulted with, who in ſuch a caſe will ſend their Elders to communicate their apprehenſions and light, which they do not pro imperio, binding the Church to reſt in their dictates but by propounding their grounds from the Scripture. Theſe courſes with Gods preſence and bleſsing (which uſually accompanieth his Ordinance) faithfully taken and followed, will prevaile either to ſettle one unanimous conſent in the thing▪ or at leaſt to preſerve peace in the Church by the diſſentors ſubmiſsion to the judgement of the Major part, though they ſee not light ſufficient to warrant them to act in the buſineſſe: Such ſubjection is according to the rule, Epheſ. 5. 21. 1 Pet. 5. 5. If the Church or the Elders ſhould refuſe the teſtimony of other Churches according to God, they will (after brotherly admonition and due patient waiting) deny them the right hand of fellowſhip, till they ſhall give better evidence of their ſubjection to the Goſpel of Chriſt. But thanks be to God we never had occaſion of ſuch withdrawing communion of one Church from another, though now and then (as need requireth) Churches ſend to other Churches for their counſell and advice.

Meanes to preſerve the Churches in unitie and verity,To 18. and to reforme any that may erre, thankes bee to God we have ſundry. Firſt, the holy Scriptures, which are a perfect rule for Doctrine and practiſe, 2 Tim. 3. 15 16. 2 Pet. 1. 19. Pſal. 19. 7, 8. Secondly, the Miniſtery appointed by Chriſt, viz. of Paſtors, Teachers, Elders, and Deacons, Epheſ. 4. 11, 12. 1 Cor 12. 28. 1 Tim. 5. 17. 1. Tim. 3. 1, 2. &c and verſ. 8. and in both theſe we have frequently holden forth unto us the Commandement of God, wherein he requires Churches to bee of one mind and one judgement in the truth, 1 Cor. 1. 10. & 2. 13. 11. Epheſ. 4. 3. & Phil. 1. 27. & 2. 1. 2. and his promiſe to lead his people into all truth, and holy agreement therein, Jer. 32. 29. Iſa 11 6, 7 &c. Zeph. 3. 9. Ioh. 16. 13. with many motives and Rules from Scripture for continuing in the ſaid truth and love. Now Faith makes uſe of theſe promiſes and ſubmits to theſe precepts and exhortations, and ſo both theſe being mixt with Faith p. 63are profitable meanes by the bleſsing of God for that end aforeſaid, Heb. 4. 2. as theſe Churches have found by experience, for theſe yeares ſince our comming into this Countrey: And any other meanes ſanctified of God for the aforeſaid end, we hope we ſhould be glad with thankfull hearts to improve and make uſe of as the Lord ſhall help.

As for a Platforme of Doctrine and Diſcipline which you mention, as one meanes hereunto, if thereby you meane no more but a confeſsion of Faith of the holy doctrine which is according to godlineſſe, we know nothing but it may be lawfull and expedient in ſome caſes for any particular perſon that hath received the gift to doe it; or any Church, or a…l the Churches in any Chriſtian Common-wealth, to compile and ſet forth ſuch a platforme. The practiſe of thoſe Churches, whoſe Confeſsions are contained in that booke called The harmony of Confeſſions, as alſo of Maſter Robinſon at Leiden, and others of our Nation in other parts in the Low-countries, who have publiſhed ſuch platformes, we ſee no reaſon to condemne or diſallow: neither count we it unlawfull or inexpedient for any Church or Churches, or perſon or perſons in the countrey, upon juſt occaſion to doe the like.

But if your meaning be of a platforme to be impoſed by authority upon others, or our ſelves, as a binding Rule of Faith and practice, ſo that all men muſt believe and walke according to that platforme, without adding, altering, or omitting▪ then we are doubtfull whether ſuch platformes be lawfull or expedient. For if the Doctrine contained therein doe in any particular ſwerve from the Doctrine contained in Scripture then the impoſing of them is ſo far forth unlawfull; and if they be according to it, then they may ſeeme needleſſe, in as much as the forme of wholeſome words contained in Scripture is ſufficient. Which reaſon againſt ſuch Platformes, makes nothing againſt Sermons or Preaching, though Sermons muſt be according to the Doctrine contained in Scripture, becauſe Preaching is an ordinance of God and therefore not needleſſe; which we cannot ſay of ſuch Platformes. Beſides, as they are not neceſſary, ſo they may be a ſnare unto men, and a dangerous p. 64temptation of attending more to the forme of Doctrine delivered from the authority of the Church, and the impoſers, then to the examining thereof according to the Rule of Scripture; and ſo their faith may by this meanes ſtand in the wiſedome or will of man, rather then in the power of God, as if men had dominion over their faith; which things ought not ſo to be, 1 Cor. 2. 5. & 2. 1. ver. Chriſtians have liberty from God to ſearch the Scriptures, and try all things, and hold faſt that which is good, Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. 1 Theſſ. 5. 21. but the foreſaid impoſing of platformes and confeſsions compiled by men, doth ſeeme to abridge them of that liberty; and if it be any meanes of unity, yet it may be a dangerous hinderance of ſome verity and degree of truth as binding men to reſt in their former apprehenſions and knowledge, without liberty, to better their judgement in thoſe points, and ſhutting the doore againſt any further light which God may give to his beſt ſervants, and moſt diſcerning, beyond what they ſaw at firſt: And therefore we doubt ſuch impoſed platformes are not lawfull, or at leaſt wiſe not expedient.

The conſociation of Churches into Claſſes and Synods we hold to be lawfull and in ſome caſes neceſſary; as namely in things that are not peculiar to one Church, but common to them all: And likewiſe when a Church is not able to end any matter that concernes onelyonly themſelves, then they are to ſeeke for counſell and advice from neighbour Churches; as the Church at Antioch did ſend unto the Church at Ieruſalem, Acts 15. 2. the ground and uſe of Claſſes and Synods, with the limitations therein to be obſerved, is ſummarily laid downe by Doctor Ames, Medul. Theol. l 1. c. 39. Sect. 27. unto whom we do wholly conſent in this matter.

But when you ſpeake of doing no weighty matter without the conſent and counſell of a Claſſes, we dare not ſo far reſtraine the particular Churches as fearing this would be to give the C…aſſes an undue power and more then belongs unto them by the Word; as being alſo an abridgment of that power which Chriſt hath given to every particular Church, to tranſact their owne matters (whether more or p. 65leſſe weighty) among themſelves (if ſo be they be able) without ſuch neceſſary dependence upon Claſſes, as we have ſhewed before in anſwer to Q. 14. Sect. 3. & 4. of that Anſwere. And Maſter Parker teſtifieth, that in Genevah, and in the Low-countries, where they have ſome uſe of Claſſes, yet it cannot bee ſaid that their particular Congregations are abſque poteſtate omni in rebus grandtoribus, ut in excommunicatione; the particular Churches are not without power in the more weighty matters, as in Excommunication, Polit. Eccleſ. li. 2. c. 36. Sect. 11. p. 310. And Maſter Baine ſheweth the ſame, ſaying, They have power of governing themſelves, but for greater edification voluntarily confederate, not to uſe or exerciſe their power but with mutuall communion, one asking the counſell and conſent of the other, Dioceſ. Triall Q. 1. p. 21. And a little after Geneva made his conſociation, not as if the prime Churches were imperfect, and to make one Church by this union; but becauſe though they were intire Churches, and had the power of Churches, yet they needed ſupport in exerciſing of it, &c. which is the very ſame that wee ſaid before in Q. 14 viz. That all Churches have right of Government within themſelves, but ſome had need of counſell and advice of others, becauſe they are of leſſe ability to tranſact their owne matters of themſelves. And Maſter Parker in the ſame place afore alledged in the page immediately precedent, clearly ſheweth againſt Doctor Downham, Doctor Sutcliffe, and others, that thoſe particular Congregations which have Presbyters of their owne, with power within themſelves, are the moſt perfect, and are preciſely formed juxta formam illam quae in verbo patefacta eſt, according to that forme which is revealed in the Word; whereas others which have not the like are more defective and imperfect. And if this be ſo, then to binde Churches to do no weighty matters without the counſell and conſent of Claſſes, were to blinde them to bee imperfect. And for Synods, if they have ſuch power that their determination ſhall binde the Churches to obedience (as you ſpeake) it is more then we yet underſtand. Indeed Bellarmine makes Biſhops in a Councell or Synod to be Judges; and that ſtandum ſit corum p. 66ſententiae, quia ipſi ſic statuerunt, quomodo ſtatur ſententia Praetoris in cauſis politicis; that is, either to obey or ſuffer: de Concil. & Eccleſ. l. 1. c. 18. But the Orthodoxe Writers do not conſent to him therein; for in their judgement the ſentence of a Councell or Synod is onelyonly inquiſitio quaedam & dictio ſententiae miniſtrato…ia & limitata, ita ut tantum valeat decretum Concilii quantum valeat ejus ratio, as Doctor Ames hath it in his Bellarminus enervatus, upon that place of Bellarmine: that is, The ſentence of a Synod is onelyonly a certaine enquiring and giving of ſentence by way of Miniſtery, and with limitation; ſo that the decree of the Councell hath ſo much force as there is force in the reaſon of it. And Junius expreſſeth it thus; Sententia Concilii per ſe ipſam ſuaſionis non coactionis eſt judicium miniſteriale, non authoritatem, per ſe neceſſitatemque adferens, Animadverſ. upon Bellarmine in that place: that is, The ſentence of a Councell is of it ſelfe onelyonly of advice, not of compulſion or conſtraint, and brings with it a judgement miniſteriall, not authority of it ſelfe nor neceſsity; whereunto we doe wholly conſent. As for that clauſe in this Queſtion, That the determination of a Synod ſhould binde if not to obedience, yet to peaceable ſuffering, we know not what ſufferings thoſe ſhould be: for puniſhments in Purſe or Perſon, in reſpect of the body or outward man, are not to be inflicted by Synods, but by civill Magiſtrates; and Church-cenſures of Excommunication, or the like, belong to the particular Church of which an offendor is a member, out of the communion whereof a man cannot be caſt, but onelyonly by his owne Church.

OnelyOnly Chriſt hath Authority to make Lawes for the governmentTo 19 of each particular Church, and the Members thereof, and h…s lawes doe oblige all the Members, and may not be omitted without ſinne, Jam. 4. 12. Jſa. 33. 22. … Mat. 23. 8, 9 10. …ct. 3. 23. But for particular Churches, they have no power to make Lawes for themſelves or their Members, but to obſerve and ſee all their Members obſerve thoſe Laws which Chriſt hath given and commanded Mat. 28. 20. Deu…. 33. 3. Iohn 10. 27. If any Church ſhall preſume further, they goe beyond their Commiſsion, and in p. 67ſuch caſe their Eccleſiaſticall Lawes may be omitted without ſinne, nay it would be ſinne to be ſubject to them Col. 2. 20. To walke after them, Hoſ. 5. 11. to be ſuch ſervants of men as not to ſtand faſt in the liberty wherewith Chriſt hath made us free, 1. or. 7. 23. Gal. 5. 1.

The outward calling of a Miniſter conſiſteth properlyTo 20. and eſſentially in election by the people, as Doctor …mes ſheweth, Caſ. Conſ. l. 4. c. 25. Q. 6. And this election is ſo eſſentiall, that without it the Miniſters calling (if you ſpeak of an ordinary Church officer) is a nullity; And therefore Mornay, that learned noble man of France, approveth that ſaying of Chryſoſtome, election by the people is ſo neceſſary, as that without it there is neither Altar, nor Church, nor Prieſt-hood, where (omitting other things) it appeares to be their judgement, that without election by the people, the Miniſtery is void; And Mornay addeth of his owne, concerning the Biſhops amongſt the Papiſts, that they were nullá plane foreign, nulla proinde, foreign, for the one preſuppoſed the other, no Impoſition ſeeing without election, in his booke of the Church, c. 11. p. 375. Yet ſometimes the peoples acceptance and approbation afterward may ſupply the want of election at the firſt, as Iacobs after conſent and acceptance of Lea, made her to be his wife, though hee choſe her not at the firſt. And by this we hold the calling of many Miniſters in England may be excuſed, who at firſt came into their places without the conſent of the people.

If ordination by impoſition of hands, were of the eſſence of a Miniſters calling then in thoſe Churches, where ſuch ordination is not uſed, their Miniſters ſhould want a lawfull calling, which were an hard ſentence againſt many Miniſters in Scotland, where (as is reported) this ordination is not thought neceſſary, and therefore uſed or omitted indifferently. Wee looke at Ordination by Impoſition of hands, as a ſolemne inveſting of men into their places, whereto they have right and calling by election, like to the inauguration of a Magiſtrate in the Common-wealth, yet neceſſary by divine Inſtitution. 1 Tim. 4. 14. But not ſo neceſſary as if the Miniſters calling were a nullity without p. 68it. Eſſentia ipſa vocationis, in electione legitima conſiſtit; Ordinatio pendet ab electione, ſicut Coronatio Principi…, aut Magiſtratus inauguratio, ab electione, ſucceſſione, aut aequivalente aliqua conſtitutione. Ames Bellarm. enervat. Lib. 3. de clericis, c. 2. Sect. 3. That is, the eſſence of a Miniſters calling conſiſts in lawfull election, Ordination depends upon Election, as the Coronation of a Prince, or the Inauguration of a Magiſtrate, depends upon Election, Succeſsion, or ſome other Conſtitution aequivalent. And againe, Ritus impoſitionis manuum non eſt abſolute neceſſarius ad eſſe Paſtoris, non magis quam Coronatio ad eſſe Regis, aut celebratio nuptiarum ad earum eſſe. ſect. 10. That is, the right of Impoſition of hands is not abſolutely neceſſary to the eſſence of a Paſtor, no more then the Coronation to the eſſence of a King, or the Celebration of Marriage to the eſſence thereof.

Ordination of Miniſters is not a private action but publique,To 21. and ought to be done publiquely in the Aſſembly of the Church, and therefore the perſons that performe it, (whether they be ordinary Church Officers or no) cannot in any congruity of ſpeech be called meere private perſons in that Action.

2. The Church that hath no Officers, may elect Officers or Miniſters unto themſelves, therefore it may alſo ordaine them; which Argument Dr. Whitaker uſeth as wee ſhall ſee anon. If it have Commiſsion and power from Chriſt for the one, and that the greater, it hath it alſo for the other which is the leſſer: Now ordination is leſſe then election, and depends upon it as a neceſſary Antecedent by divine Inſtitution, by vertue of which it is juſtly adminiſtred, being indeed nothing elſe but the admiſsion of a perſon lawfully elected into his Office, or a putting of him into poſſeſsion thereof, whereunto he had right before by election, as was ſaid before in anſwer to the precedent Queſtion.

3. If a Church have Miniſters or Elders before, then this ordination is to be performed by the Elders of the Church, and in their Aſſemblie. 1 Tim. 4. 14. as alſo many other acts are to be performed by them.

p. 694. This Ordination thus performed by the Elders for the Church, may fitly be called the Act of the whole Church, as it is the whole man that ſeeth, that heareth, that ſpeaketh, when theſe acts are inſtrumentally performed by the eye, the eare, and the tongue, in which ſenſe Maſter Parker ſaith, Eccleſia per alios docet, baptiſa…que, Polit. Eccleſ. l. 3. c. 7. p. 26.

5. But when a Church hath no Officers, but the firſt Officers themſelves are to be ordained, then this Ordination by the Rite of impoſing of hands may be performed for the Church by the moſt prime grave and able men from among themſelves, as the Church ſhall depute hereunto, as the children of Iſrael did lay their hands upon the Levites, Numb. 8. 10. Now all the Congregation could not impoſe all their hands upon them together, all their hands could not poſsibly reach them together, and therefore it muſt needs be that ſome of the Congregation in the name of the whole body performed this Rite: And as this Scripture ſheweth, that the people may in ſome caſes lay their hands upon Church Officers, (for the Levites were ſuch, upon whom the children of Iſrael did lay their hands) ſo let it be conſidered, whether theſe reaſons doe not further make it manifeſt.

1. Men that are in no Office may elect, therefore they may ordaine, becauſe ordination is nothing elſe but the execution of Election.

2. If it were not ſo then one of theſe would follow, either that the Officers muſt miniſter without any Ordination at all, or elſe by vertue of ſome former Ordination received in ſome other Church or elſe they muſt be ordained by ſome other Miniſter or Miniſters of ſome other Church, that were ordained afore them, and ſo the Miniſtery to be by ſucceſsion. But the firſt of theſe is againſt the Scripture, 1 Tim. 4. 14. Heb. 6. 2. And the ſecond were to eſtabliſh the Popiſh opinion of the indeleble Character, imprinted as they imagine in their Sacrament of holy Orders. Whereas for ought we can diſcerne. If when they are called to Office in any Church, they have need of a new Election, notwithſtanding their former election into another Church p. 70then they have by the ſame ground need of a new Ordination, for Ordination depends upon Election: If their former Election be ceaſed, their former Ordination is ceaſed alſo; and they can no more miniſter by vertue of a former Ordination unto another Church, then by vertue of a former Election. And for the third, we doe not underſtand what authority ordinary Officers can have to ordaine Miniſters to ſuch a Church, of which themſelves are not ſo much as Members Beſides at ſome times, namely at the firſt Reformation after the times of Popery, there were no others to be had but from the Pope, and his Biſhops and Prieſts. Now it were a pittifull caſe, if the Sheep muſt have no Shepherd but ſuch as are appointed to them by the wolves, That is, if Gods people might not have Miniſters, but onelyonly from the popiſh Biſhops. This were to ſay, either that the Miniſters of Antichriſt, muſt, or may ordaine Miniſters to the Church of Chriſt, or elſe that the popiſh Biſhops are true Miniſters of Chriſt. And if Proteſtants thinke it neceſſary, that their firſt Miniſters ſhould be ordained by the popiſh Biſhops, it is no marvell if the Papiſts do thereupon believe that their Church is the true Church, and their Biſhops true Miniſters. Such a ſcandall is it unto them to maintaine this perſonall ſucceſsion of the Miniſtery. But God doth ſo much abhorre Antichriſt, that hee would not have his people to ſeek to him, nor his Prieſts to ordaine Chriſts Miniſters, as he would not take of Babilon a ſtone for a Corner, nor a ſtone for a foundation, Ier. 51. 26.

3. It is thus in civill Corporations and Cities, the Major, Bayliffe, or other chiefe Officer elect, is at his entrance and inauguration to receive at the hands of his Predeceſſors the Sword or Keyes of the City, or to have ſome other ſolemne Ceremonie by him performed unto him yet if either there be no former as at the firſt or that the former be dead or upon neceſsity abſent, when his Succeſſor entreth, then is this Ceremony and worke performed by ſome other, the fitteſt Inſtrument; neither need that City borrow any Officer of another City, neither could he entermeddle there without uſurpation, though both the Corporations have the ſame Charter under the ſame King. And ſo it is in this p. 71ſpirituall Corporation or City, the Church of God.

4. That this point may ſeeme the leſſe ſtrange to you, we pray you conſider with us a little further the nature of this Ordination, and then wee will adde the Teſtimonies of ſome eminent Proteſtant Writers in this caſe, that you may ſee this is not any ſingular opinion of ours. For the former, ſome indeed have ſo highly advanced this Ordination, that they have preferred it farre above preaching the Word, miniſtring the Sacraments, and Prayer, making it and the power of Excommunication, the two incommunicable Prerogatives of a Biſhop above an ordinary Miniſter; yet the Scripture teacheth no ſuch thing, but rather the contrary, for when the Apoſtles were ſent out by Chriſt, there was no mention of Ordination in that Commiſsion of theirs, but only of teaching & preaching & baptiſing Mat. 28. 19, 20. Mark. 16. 15, 16. If Ordination of Miniſters had bin ſuch a ſpeciall worke, there would belike have bin ſome mention of it in their Commiſsion. And certaine it is, the Apoſtles counted preaching the Word their principall worke, and after it Prayer, and the miniſtring of the Sacraments, Act. 6. 4. 1 Cor. 1. 17. If ordaining of Miniſters had bin in their account ſo prime a worke, it may ſeem Paul would rather have tarried in Creete to have ordained Elders there then have gone himſelfe about preaching, ſeaving Titus for the other, Tit. 1 5. By all which it appeares, that ordaining of Miniſters is not ſuch an eminent work as that it is to be preferred above preaching the Word, and miniſtring the Sacraments, and therefore to be performed by them that are ſuperiours unto ordinary Miniſters; preaching and miniſtring the Sacraments, being left as inferiour workes unto Miniſters, of an inferiour ranke, as they would have it, that ſtand for the ſuperiority of Doceſan Biſhops; neither is it equall unto thoſe other workes afore mentioned, that onelyonly he that doth thoſe, may performe this other alſo, as ſome others thinke; but being nothing elſe in the true nature and uſe of it but the execution and accompliſhment and confirmation of election, it may bee performed by the people of God, that yet have no Officers, even as Election may upon which it doth depend.

p. 725. Laſtly, let theſe ſayings of ſome Proteſtant Writers of ſingular note, either for holineſſe, or learning, or both, be well conſidered of. Maſter Perkins ſaith, Succeſsion of Doctrine alone is ſufficient; for this Rule muſt bee remembred, that the power of the Keyes (that is, of order and juriſdiction) is tyed by God and annexed in the New Teſtament to Doctrine. If in Turkey, or America, or elſewhere, the Goſpel ſhould be received by the counſell and perſwaſion of private perſons, they need not ſend into Europe for conſecrated Miniſters, but they have power to chooſe their owne Miniſters from within themſelves; becauſe where God gives the Word he gives the power alſo; upon Gal. 1. 11. Doctor Willet ſaith, Whereas Bellarmine objecteth that as in the old Law the Prieſthood went by carnall generation and lineall deſcent from Aaron, ſo in the New it muſt bee derived by ſucceſsion from the Apoſtles; we anſwere, firſt, that our Saviour Chriſt and his Apoſtles could ſhew no lineall deſcent from Aaron, neither had their ordination from his Succeſſors, and yet were the true Paſtors of the Church. And a little after, This we ſay further, that both before Chriſt there were true Paſtors and Prophets, which were not ordained by the Prieſts of Aaron; and ſince Chriſt, that received not their ordination ſucceſsively from the Apoſtles. Firſt, in the old Law, when the ordinary Prieſthood was corrupted, God raiſed up Prophets from other Tribes that received not from the Prieſts their ordination and allowance: ſuch an one was Amos, who was among Heardſmen, and was made a Prophet as he was gathering wilde black-berries. After the ſame manner in the corrupt times of the Goſpel, the Lord hath raiſed up faithfull Miniſters to his Church, that could ſhew no ſucceſsion from the degenerate Clergy. And a little after, If Paul were made an Apoſtle without the ordination of the lawfull Apoſtles much more may the Lord raiſe up new Paſtors to his Church without ordination from the uſurpers of the Apoſtles: Synopſ. Papiſm. contr. 2. Q. 3. of Succeſſion Error 20. p. 81. Mor…y his words are full and plaine to the ſame purpoſe. viz Although ſome of our men in ſuch a corrupt ſtate of the Church, as we have ſeene in our time, without waiting p. 73for calling or allowance of them who under the title of Paſtors oppreſſed the Lords Flock, did at firſt preach without this formall calling, and afterward were choſen and called to the holy Miniſtey by the Churches which they had taught; yet this ought to ſeeme no more ſtrange, then if in a free common-wealth the people without waiting either for the conſent, or for the voices of thoſe that tyrannize over them, ſhould (according to the Lawes) make choice of good and wiſe Magiſtrates, ſuch (happily) as God would ſerve his turne of for their deliverance, and for the publike reſtitution. And hereof wee have examples, firſt, in the Acts, where wee read that Philip, who was but a Deacon, preacheth in Samaria without the calling of the Apoſtles, yea without their privity, who for all that gave their allowance to his worke. In Frumentius, carried upon another occaſion into the Indies, a meere Lay-man, who yet there preacheth the Goſpel, and a good while after is there made Biſhop. In thoſe of whom Origen ſpeaketh, that ſhall come by chance into a City where never any Chriſtian was borne, ſhall there begin to teach, and labour to inſtruct the people in the Faith, whom the People ſhall afterward make their Paſtors and Biſhops: and beſides, in all the Scriptures there is not one place that bindeth the Miniſtery of the Goſpel to a certaine ſucceſſion; but contrariwiſe the Scripture ſheweth, that God would ſend two ſpeciall witneſſes to propheſie againſt Antichriſt: Of the Church chap. 11. p. 371. Doctor Whitaker anſwering Bellarmine, that would prove Proteſtants to have no Church, becauſe their Miniſters had no Ordination by Biſhops, ſaith, That as ſometimes Biſhops were choſen by the Clergy and ſometimes by the People, ſo the ſame may be ſaid of Ordination, viz. that it was ſometimes by the Clergy and ſometimes by the People; and then addeth, Quod ſi vocationem corum Epiſcoporum legitimam fuiſſe concedat Bellarminus, De ordinatione minus laboramus. Qui enim habent authoritatem vocandi, iidem etiam authoritatem ordinandi habent, ſi legitima ordinatio non poſsit impetrari: nam ordinatio ſequitur vocationem; qui vocatur, i… quaſi in ſui muneris poſſeſſionem mittitur: de Eccleſ. Q. 5. cap. 6 p. 510. Finally, Doctor Ames doth alſo witneſſe p. 74the ſame in many places of his workes: for a taſte take theſe few ſayings of his in this caſe, viz. Ad totam Eccleſiam ſemper pertinet ordinatio, quoad jus, vim, virtutem illam quam habet in Ministro Eccleſiae conſtituendo; ſicut celebratio matrimonii vim aut virtutem omnem acceptam refert legitimo conſenſui conjugum: Eccleſie ſtatu (miniſterio & ordine deficiente) collapſo vel corrupto, à plebe etiam actus iſte ordinationis, quatenus neceſſarius eſt ad Miniſtri conſtitutionem in tali caſu, poteſt legitimè exerceri, Bellarm. enervat. lib. 3. de clericis, cap. 2 de ordinatione. And againe, a little after; Epiſcopos veros à veris Epiſcopis ordinariè dicimus ordinand…s eſſe, ſed nomine Eccleſiae cui ordinantur. And againe, a little after, Poteſtas ordinandi eſt aliqu… modo originaliter in tota Eccleſia, ſicut potestas videndi originaliter eſt in toto animali, quamvis formaliter & ſubjectivè ſit in oculo tantùm; tum etiam ordinationis exercitium pendet à tota Eccleſia, ſicut actus videndi hoc vel illud determinatè pendet non ab oculo ſed à toto. And againe, Quamvis in Eccleſia benè conſtituta non debeat aliis quam presbyteris ordinandi manus mandari; in defectu tamen idoneorum presbyterorum poteſt non presbyteris mandari. And yet againe in the next place, Si concedatur hoc, quòd ex ordine nemo poſſit eſſe legitimus paſtor, niſi ſit à legitimo Paſtore & Epiſcopo ordinatus: In ordinis tamen defectu, cùm jam primò inſtaurari debet ordo, non poteſt…tam accuratè obſervari, atque adeo extraordinarium aliquid tum poteſt intervenire ſine ullo vitio. Theſe words you ſee are punctuall and plaine, that the power of ordaining Miniſters is originally in the Church; and that though when a Church hath Presbyters, the act of ordaining is to be done by thoſe Presbyters; yet in defect of ſuch it may be performed by them that are no Presbyters, lawfully, and without fault; which is the caſe of our Churches that are in their beginnings, and may be the caſe of any Church when they come to be without Officers, as by warre, peſtilence, &c. it may come to paſſe.

There are ſome things common to Paſtors with Teachers;T… 22. as, that they are both Officers of the Church appointed by Chriſt; both Elders or Biſhops to rule and feed the Church, by labouring in the Word and Doctrine, Act. 20 28 1 Tim. 3. 1. Tit. 1. 5, 7. and therefore the name of Paſtour, in a generall ſenſe may be given to them both, Ier. p. 753. 15. as alſo the name of Teacher, Iſa. 30. 20. as thoſe names may alſo be given to Apoſtles, in as much as they alſo are Elders, Paſtors, Teachers, to rule, to feed, to teach the Church of God, 1 Pet. 5. 1. Ioh. 21. 15. 16. 1 Tim. 2. 7. & 2. 1. 11. And if Paſtors and Teachers be both of them Church officers, to feed and rule the Church▪ by labouring in the Word and Doctrine, they muſt not do this without application of it to the conſciences and ſtates of the hearers, as God ſhall helpe them: for this application is one part of his worke, that is by his office to preach the Word, without which the Word is not handled in ſuch a manner as it ought to be, 2 Tim. 2. 15. 1 Cor. 14. 25. Luk. 12. 42. and many hearers need this, the Word delivered in generall without application of it being to them as bread ſet before children in the whole loafe. And if both of them muſt labour in the Word and Doctrine, and not onelyonly in a generall way, but with application, we ſee not but they may both of them adminiſter the Seales or Sacraments, wherein there is a ſpeciall application of the promiſes of the Goſpel, and the grace of Chriſt therein, unto the faithfull and believing receivers. 2. And yet for all this community between them, they are not in propriety of ſpeech the ſame Officers, but diſtinct, and ſo the Scripture ſpeaketh of them Epheſ. 4. 11. For if a man would ſay their Offices are confounded, becauſe the ſame generall worke of preaching the Word, and applying the ſame, belongs unto them both: By the ſame reaſon a man might ſay the offices of Apoſtles and Evangeliſts were confounded; for both of them were to preach the Word, with application of the ſame by doctrine, and Seales; and alſo that the ordinary Paſtors were the ſame office with them both, becauſe hee alſo is to doe the ſame worke of preaching and applying: But an Apoſtle is to feed, and rule, and teach, by way of Doctrine and Application, as an Apoſtle; an Evangeliſt as an Evangeliſt, and an ordinary Paſtor as an ordinary Paſtor, and therein lyes the difference: and wee may adde, a Teacher as a Teacher; and therein is he diſtinguiſhed both from the Paſtor, and from all other Church Officers, even as by the ſame they all are diſtinguiſhed one from another, the ſame generall worke p. 76of Doctrine and Application being common to them all.

3. And for the Teacher and Paſtor, the difference between them lyes in this, that the one is principally to attend upon points of Knowledge and Doctrine, though not without Application; and the other to points of Practice, though not without Doctrine: and therefore the one of them is called▪ He that teacheth, and his worke is thus expreſſed, let him attend on teaching; and the other, He that exhorteth, and his worke, to attend on exhortation, Rom. 12. 7, 8. and the gift of the one is called a word of knowledge, and the gift of the other, a word of wiſedome, 1 Cor. 12. 8. as experience alſo ſheweth, that one mans gift is more doctrinall, and for points of knowledge; and anothers more exhortatory, and for points of practiſe.

It is not the manner of Elders among us, whether RulingTo 23. onelyonly, or Ruling and Teaching alſo, to ſtrive for authority or preheminence one above another; as remembring what leſſon our Saviour taught his Diſciples, when they were at ſtrife among them, which of them ſhould be the greateſt, Luk. 22. 24, 25. &c. If Diotrephes ſtrive for preheminence 3 Ioh. 9, 10. verily we abhorre ſuch ſtriving, and by the grace of God reſpect one another as Brethren. As for the peoples duty toward their Elders, it is taught them plainly in that place, 1 Theſ. 5. 12, 13. as alſo in that of 1 Tim. 5. 17 Let the Elders that rule well bee counted worthy of double honour, ſpecially they that labour in the Word and Doctrine; and this Word (ſpecially) ſhewes them, that as they are to account all their Elders worthy of double honour, ſo in ſpeciall manner their Teaching or Preaching Elders.

Theſe are anſwered in that which was ſent the laſtTo 24. & 25. yeare.

We doe believe that every Miniſter of the Goſpel oughtTo 26. to be maintained with ſufficient and honourable maintenance, according to his need and occaſions, in regard of his perſon, calling, charge of children and hoſpitality, ſo as he that preacheth the Goſpel may in all theſe reſpects live p. 77of the Goſpel, 1 Cor. 9. 14. Gal 6. 6. 1 Tim. 5. 17. And this maintenance is not to be allowed as almes and courteſie, but as debt and duty, to bee paid according to the rule of Juſtice; the Labourer is worthy of his wages, Luk. 10. 17. which the Apoſtle ſheweth to be according to all Lawes of nature, nations, Moſes and Chriſt, 1 Cor. 9. But for ſetled and ſtinted maintenance, there is nothing done that way amongſt us, except from yeare to yeare, becauſe the conditions of Miniſters may vary, and of the Church to which they doe belong: Neither doe we know any ſuch thing to be appointed by Chriſt our Lord, for the maintenance of the Miniſtery in theſe dayes; but this we know that the great mountaine burning with fire, caſt into the ſea upon the ſounding of the ſecond Trumpet Rev. 8. 8, 9. is applyed by ſome good Writers to thoſe times, when Conſtantine brought ſetled endowments into the Church, with ampla praedia (as they are called) are counted by ſome to bee no better then poyſon to the Church; as the Stories ſay that upon the fact of the good Emperour a voice was heard, which ſaid, Hodie ſeminatum eſt virus in Eccleſiam. And if thoſe Writers be not deceived which ſo expound that Scripture (as for our parts wee know not but they expound it truely) then in as much as upon the caſting of that mountaine into the ſea, a third part of it became blood and a third part of living creatures dyed, and a third part of ſhips were deſtroyed, it may be truely gathered thence that the bringing in of ſetled endowments and eminent preferments into the Church, hath been the corruption, and to ſome the deſtruction of ſuch as lived by them, both Church-officers and Church-members.

We doe not permit, and call upon (ſuch whom you call)To 27. meere Lay men, and private perſons, neither being in the Miniſtery nor intended to it, ordinarily to preach or prophecy publiquely, in or before the Congregation, if by ordinarily, you meane frequently and uſually. For where ordinary Officers are not wanting to a Church, and neither detained from their worke by ſickneſſe, nor juſt abſence, we thinke it moſt meet to offer our Sacrifice to God and to the p. 78Church of our beſt gifts. But yet if you oppoſe ordinary to extraordinary, we doe confeſſe that ſome private members (to wit ſuch as are eminently fitted with knowledge and utterance, being alſo men of humble ſpirits, and holy lives, all which qualifications we finde but in a few) may without an extraordinary calling from God be called forth by by the Church upon ſome occaſion (and namely in the abſence or bodily weakneſſe of Miniſters, or for tryall of gifts when a man intends the Miniſtery) to ſpeake to edification, exhortation and comfort. Iehoſaphat ſent Princes (who neither were Miniſters, nor intended ſo to be) to teach with the Prieſts and Levites, to wit, at leaſt to incourage the people, to hearken to the Prieſts and Levites come amongſt them, 2 Chron. 17. 7, 8, 9. As Jehoſaphat himſelfe alſo did the like, 2 Chron. 20. 20. Yea, and was their mouth alſo to God in prayer, v. 2. 5. to 13. As for that prophecying 1 Cor. 14. We conceive as ſome things in it be extraordinary, ſo ſome things ordinary. Extraordinary, that private men, and new converts ſhould be ſo ſoon & ſo ſuddainly, & ſo much enlightened & enlarged, as to be able to prophecy publikely to the edification of a whole Church: But yet this we conceive to be ordinary, that ſome private men may be found (at leaſt in ſome Churches) grown Chriſtians, of able gifts, who may have received a gift of Prophecy, and for ſuch we doe not thinke it requireth any more an extraordinary calling for them to prophecy in our Churches, then for Iehoſaphat and his Princes to prophecy in the Church of Iſrael.

Our Anſwer to this Queſtion is that we never knew anyTo 28. Miniſters that did call upon the people thus to doe: and as for us, ſuch calling upon them is farre from us. All that we know to be holden in this caſe is this, that ſome thinke the people have a liberty to aske a Queſtion publiquely for their better ſatisfaction upon very urgent and weighty cauſe, though even this is doubted of by others, and all judge the ordinary practice of it, not neceſſary: but (if it be not meekly and wiſely carried) to be inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull, and therefore ſuch asking of Queſtions is ſeldome uſed in any Church among us, and in moſt Churches never. True it is, in the times a little afore the Synod divers that were infected with corrupt opinions p. 79were very bold, & forward in this kind of asking Queſtions, after Sermons, eſpecially when they had heard ſomthing delivered publiquely that did make againſt their Tenents; by which kind of asking Queſtions, they plainely diſcovered of what ſpirit they were, but for being called upon by us thus to doe, (as it ſeems to your Queſtion that you have been informed) the truth is, there was no ſuch matter. But now theſe men are long ſince, (the greateſt part of them) to an Iſland (called Aquedneck) departed from amongſt us, ſome of them being excommunicated or baniſhed, or both, & others departing voluntarily, or for feare of the like cenſure, by meanes of which departure of theſe troubleſome ſpirits from amongſt us, and the bleſsing of God upon the Synod & Sermons that have laid open & reproved this diſorderly asking of Queſtions, a man may now live from one end of the year unto another in theſe Congregations, & not hear any man open his mouth in ſuch kind of asking Queſtions.

1. The converſion of ſinners unto God doth not alwaiesTo 29. follow the preaching of every one, that is in a lawfull office of miniſtery, as experience and Scripture doe aboundantly witneſſe, Iſay. 49. 4, 5. & 53. 1. Ezech. 3. 7. 2 King. 17. 13 14. Mat. 11. 20, 21. &c. Iohn 12. 37.

2. And when it doth follow, it is not by vertue of him, or of his office, but by vertue of Gods bleſsing, and the mighty operation of his ſpirit as he pleaſeth, without which the Miniſter and his office could have had no vertue at all to convert ſinners unto God, 1 Cor. 3. 6. no more then Peter and Iohn could heale the lame man, by virtue of any power or holineſſe that was in them, Act. 3. 12. For otherwiſe faithfull Miniſters ſhould not have their labours bleſſed for converſion ſome more and ſome leſſe▪ but all in the ſame meaſure, inaſmuch as one of them is no more a Miniſter then another, nor no more in Office then another, their office being the ſame, the effect in converſion would bee the ſame if converſion were by the vertue of their office. The truth it is, the Law of the Lord, (the whole Word of God) that converts the ſoule, Pſal. 19. 7. And the Goſpell that is the power of God unto Salvation. Rom. 1. 16. And therefore the converſion of a man to God is to be aſcribed to God, and to the Word of his Grace; and not to the Miniſter, nor any vertue of his office.

p. 803. But this we doe acknowledge, that the ſound converſion of ſinners, whenſoever ſuch a thing comes to paſſe, doth argue that the Inſtruments of ſuch converſion are ſent of God: God would not ſo have bleſſed them, as to convert any by them, if himſelfe had not ſent them at all, Rom. 10. 14, 15. Ier. 23. 32.

4. And yet we dare not ſay, that Gods Word is not made effectuall to converſion, unleſſe the man that ſpeakes it be a Miniſter, that is to ſay, a Church Officer, for the contrary is evident from the Scripture, John 4. 39. Act. 8. 4. with 11. 19, 20, 21. 1 Cor. 7. 16. They that were ſcattered abroad upon the perſecution that aroſe about Steven, were not Church Officers, at leaſt all of them (for the Apoſtles who were their chiefe, if not their only preaching Officers, were not ſcattered abroad upon that perſecution, but remained ſtill at Jeruſalem, Acts 8. 1.) and yet theſe men did ſo preach the Word of the Lord Jeſus to the Iewes and the Grecians, that through the good hand of the Lord that was with them, a great number believed and turned to the Lord; And the ſame we ſay of the woman of Samaria, by whoſe Teſtimonie of Chriſt many of the Samaritans believed on him. To reſtraine the efficacy of Gods Word in ſuch ſort as to ſay that none can be converted by it, unleſſe he that ſpeakes it be a Miniſter, is to limit the ſpirit of the Lord, where he hath not limited himſelf, who is free in working by whom he pleaſeth, and as he will, 1 Cor. 12. 11. Even as the wind bloweth where it liſteth, Iohn 3. 8. and ſometimes doth bring to paſſe great things by weake meanes, that his owne glory may be the more, 1 Cor. 1. 27, 28, 29. If any ſay, how can theſe things ſtand together, that a man that is no Miniſter may be an Inſtrument of converſion, and yet converſion of ſinners argues that the man is ſent of God? Wee anſwer, that we muſt diſtinguiſh of ſending according to the divers degrees thereof. For ſometimes it imports no more but ſuch an Act of Gods diſpoſing providence, whereby men are gifted and enabled for ſuch or ſuch a worke, and permitted thereunto, though they have no command from him for the doing thereof, nor doe it not with a ſincere minde in any obedience to God, but for corrupt and ſiniſter p. 81ends of their owne. Thus God ſent the King of Aſſyria againſt the Iewes, Iſa. 10. 6. And bands of the Caldees, and bands of other Nations againſt Jehojakim, and againſt Iudah, to deſtroy it, 2 King. 24. 2. And yet they had no command from him to doe this, but ſinned grievouſly in ſo doing. Thus they that preached Chriſt not ſincerely, but of envie and ſtrife, to adde affliction to Pauls bands, yet inaſmuch as they preached Chriſt, might be ſaid to be ſent of God, and therefore the Apoſtle joyed at their preaching, Phil. 1. 15, 16. Thus Baalam in his Prophecies againſt the enemies of Iſrael and for the happy ſtate of Gods people, might be ſaid to be ſent of God, though his heart and ends were corrupt and ſinfull. But if men be not onelyonly enabled with gifts for ſuch or ſuch a worke, but beſides this, have a ſincere minde and deſire in the uſing thereof, to ſeeke the glory of God, and the good of ſoules, ſuch men may much more be ſaid to be ſent of God, Iohn 7. 18. For theſe men have not onelyonly abilities and gifts from God, and permiſsion to imploy them as the former had but alſo his ſpirit within them, which doth ſet their hearts on right and holy ends, which the other wanted. And yet if men doe want a lawfull office of Miniſtery, wherein to exerciſe thoſe gifts or a lawfull calling to that office or exerciſe, they may in that reſpect be ſaid not to be ſent of God, or not to be called of him though ſent of him, in the firſt or ſecond reſpect. Thus in the Scriptures it is ſaid of ſome they ran and I ſent them not, Ier. 23. 21. I perceived that God had not ſent him, but he pronounced his Prophecies, becauſe Sanballat and Tobiah had hired him, Neh. 6. 12. And yet doubtleſſe in reſpect of Gods diſpoſing providence, he had ſent them, as the Scripture witneſſeth, that God ſends ſtrong deluſions and lying Prophets, and unfaithfull Shepherds, 2 Theſ. 2. 11. 1 King. 22. 22, 23. Zech. 11. 16. to be a plague unto the Sons of men, and for tryall to his ſervants, Deut. 13. 3. 1 Cor. 11. 19. Now let theſe diſtinctions be applyed to the caſe in hand, and we may perceive how, if a man convert ſinners, certainly God ſends him; and yet ſome that are not called to any office in the Miniſtery, may through his bleſsing convert ſinners: A man converts none unleſſe God ſend him in the firſt or ſecond ſence and yet he may convert, and not bee ſent, if ſending be taken in the third ſence, that is for a lawfull calling into ſome office in the p. 82Church. And wee may adde, further a man may be ſent in this third ſence and yet convert none if he be not alſo ſent in the firſt and ſecond reſpect; that is a man may have a lawfull calling outwardly unto a lawfull office in the Church, and yet not convert ſinners, if he want gifts or ſincerity of heart, which might be the caſe of Iudas, and of many wicked Prieſts in the old Teſtament: Yea, happily convert none though he be truly ſent in all three reſpects, as was ſaid before in the beginning of the Anſwer to this Quaere. But if compariſon be made, we doubt not, but whileſt the Miniſtery remaines uncorrupt, God is wont to follow with a greater bleſsing the labours of thoſe who have gifts and an office of Miniſtery alſo, then of thoſe who have gifts alone without office. He is willing, and wonted to honour himſelfe moſt, where moſt of his wayes are obſerved.

Maſter Parker Polit. Eccleſ. l. 2. c. 39. &c. 41. obſerves a differenceTo 30. between the Subſtantialls in Church Politie, and the acceſſaries or accidentalls▪ and circumſtantialls: And againe, that of circumſtances ſome are generall, and ſome particular and individuall; and ſo ſheweth that the Church Politie in regard of the ſubſtantialls thereof is preſcribed in the Word, and therefore immutable. According to which diſtinction wee Anſwer, that if thoſe words (preciſely the ſame courſe) mentioned in this Queſtion, be not meant of particular and individuall circumſtances, but only of the ſubſtantialls or generall circumſtances, then for ought we know there is no materiall point, either in conſtitution, or government, wherein the Churches in N. E. (viz. In the bay, in the juriſdiction of Plymouth, at Connectacute, and Quilipiake) do not obſerve the ſame courſe. (And ſure it is if they doe not they ought, becauſe Chriſt hath left but one way for all Churches, and the ſame to be obſerved to the Worlds end, 1 Tim. 6. 13, 14.) OnelyOnly, that conformity to the Lyturgie and Ceremonies in ſome places, to the Northward, that Anabaptiſme at Providence, and Familiſme at Aquidneck▪ hinders that we cannot ſay the ſame of them, nor of any other in N. E. that concurre with them in their unwarrantable wayes▪ if there be any ſuch, though thankes be to God there is none within this Juriſdiction.

Who muſt have liberty to ſit downe in this Common-wealthTo 31. and enjoy the liberties thereof is not our place to determine, but p. 83the Magiſtrates who are the rulers and governours of the Common-wealth, and of all perſons within the ſame. And as for acknowledging a company to be a ſiſter Church, that ſhall ſet up, and practiſe another forme of Church Diſcipline, being otherwiſe in ſome meaſure, as you ſay, approveable, we conceive the companie that ſhall ſo doe, ſhall not be approveable therein. For the Diſcipline appointed by Jeſus Chriſt for his Churches is not arbitrary, that one Church may ſet up and practice one forme, and another another forme, as each one ſhall pleaſe, but is one and the ſame for all Churches, and in all the Eſſentialls and Subſtantialls of it unchangable, and to be kept, till the appearing of Jeſus Chriſt, 1 Tim. 6. 13, 14. from which place Maſter Cartwright obſerves the perpetuity of Church Government taught by the Apoſtles, unto the end of the World, and is plain and large in this point, 1 Rep. p. 177. as is likewiſe Mr. Parker Polit. Eccleſ. l. 2. c. 42. and ſo forward to the end of that Book, unto whom we refer you herein. And if that Diſcipline which we here practiſe, be (as we are perſwaded of it) the ſame which Chriſt hath appointed, and therefore unalterable, we ſee not how another can be lawfull; and therefore if a company of people ſhall come hither, and here ſet up and practiſe another, we pray you thinke not much, if we cannot promiſe to approve of them in ſo doing, eſpecially untill wee ſee how approvable the men may be, and what Diſcipline it is that they would ſet up. For ſhould wee in ſuch generall words as is there expreſſed, promiſe to accept of a companie as a Siſter Church▪ that ſhall ſet up and practiſe another Diſcipline, and then ſhould be taken at the utmoſt extent of our words, we might by this meanes be bound to accept of a company of Papiſts, or Arminians, or Familiſts, or Anabaptiſts, as a ſiſter Church, for there is none of theſe but ſomething may be found in them, and in their Diſcipline, that is in ſome meaſure approveable. And yet we pray you heartily in the Lord, ſo conceive of us in this paſſage, that we are farre from making any ſuch compariſon, as if your ſelves were not approved in our conſciences far above the beſt of ſuch men, yea and above our ſelves in many reſpects.

We have ſaid before in that which we ſent you the laſt yeare, and upon this occaſion we ſay it now againe, that you are in our hearts (if the Lord would ſuffer) to live and dye together: and p. 84therefore if this Queſtion were meant of your ſelves, or any of you, and a company of godly people joyning with you (as it may be it is, though we cannot certainly ſay it, becauſe you doe not expreſſe ſo much) we thinke if you were here, wee ſhould gladly accept of you and your people as a ſiſter-Church, and that you would doe the like to ours; and yet not when you ſhould ſet up and practiſe one forme of Church-diſcipline, and we another, but becauſe we are perſwaded if you were here, you would ſet up and practiſe the very ſame that wee doe, and not any other: or elſe if we be ſwerving from the rule in any particular (as God knowes we are but weake men, and far from dreaming of perfection in this life) God would by you ſend in more light unto us then yet we ſee, and make you inſtruments in his hand for perfecting what is here begun according to his will, for ſtrengthening what is weake, and reforming what may be found to be amiſſe: For we truſt in the Lord, that as wee are deſirous that you might joyne with us in the wayes wherein we now walke, (which we doe not ſee but they are according to the Rule) ſo we ſhould be as willing to receive light from you, and to redreſſe (as God ſhall helpe us) whatſoever by you or any other he may diſcover to us to ſtand in need of Reformation. For which cauſe among others we doe the more earneſtly deſire, if it were the Lords will that he might ſend you hither, nothing doubting but if you were here, there would be ſuch agreement between you and us, that either you would approve of the things which we beleeve and practiſe, or that we ſhould approve of what you may ſhevv us to be more agreeable to the minde of Chriſt: and then there would be no occaſion of ſuch a Queſtion, Whether we may ſet up and practiſe another diſcipline, and yet be accepted as a ſiſter-Church: but rather of bleſsing the Lord, when that ſhall be accompliſhed in you and us which is written in the Prophets, I will give them one heart and one way: I will turne unto the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of the Lord, to ſerve him with one conſent, Jer. 32. 39. Zeph. 3. 9. Wee have confidence in you through the Lord, that you will be none otherwiſe minded; but if in any thing ye be otherwiſe minded God ſhall reveale even this unto you, Gal. 5. 10. Phil. 3. 15.

This was anſwered in the anſwer to Poſit. 1. & 2. ſent unto youTo 32. the laſt yeare.

FINIS.