Replies made to the Anti-queries of Thomas Lye, Body of text

Replies made to the Anti-queries of Thomas Lye · Body of text

p. 1Replies made to certain Antiquaeries propounded by Thomas Lye, who ſtiles himſelf Miniſter of the G…ſpel at Chard, &c.

THomas Lye. Anſwers returned to theſe Quaeres by one of thoſe Miniſters of the Goſpel who in ſcorn are called Pariſh-Teachers, &c.

section 1 Anſ. The very beginning of this work is blemiſh't with an untruth, for I did not ſo call them in ſcorn, but did purpoſely chooſe that word, as the which I judged leſs apt to give them cauſe of diſtaſt. Yet this is a very meet foundation for that which is afterward built upon it, ſo like they be one to other.

T.L. To be left at the houſe of T. B. of Aſh, who is deſired in the fear of God ſeriouſly to read and meditate on 1 Joh. 2.19. They went out from us, becauſe they were not of us, &c.

section 2 Anſ. Yes truly they were of you, ſo long as (the earthly in them prevailing) they could take Tythes, &c. ſprinkle Infants, ſing David's Pſalms in meter and wanton ſounds: but after that the eye of their underſtandings was opened, and they turned from theſe Vanities to worſhip the Father in Spirit and in Truth, then went they out from you indeed, and ceaſed to be of your number, (being taken into a betterp. 2ſociety) even in like ſort, and for like cauſe as juſt Lot with his family went out of wicked Sodom, then ready to be ſeiſed on with Gods fiery vengeance, & wholly to be deſtroyed. And now do they ſtand as ſo many witneſſes againſt your falſe Call, and manifold deceits and evil practices; what they know, what they felt in themſelves, the ſame do they now againſt you teſtifie. Add hereunto this alſo, That whiles they were of you, they were as ſo many Lillies among the Thorns for ſundry good parts and vertues (which are wanting in you whom they left.)

T.L. Whether thoſe whom God hath competently qualified with Miniſterial knowledge, 1 Tim. 4.6. and utterance, Col. 4.3. and who are ſolemnly ſet apart to the Office of the Miniſtry with prayer, taſting, and impoſition of hands, Acts 4.23. 1 Tim. 4.14. & 5.22. may be juſtly charged to run when they are not ſent?

section 3 Anſw. He that is in darkneſs himſelf, can badly ſee how for to turn others to the light; and who knoweth not whither himſelf doth go, an ill guide will he certainly prove in ſhewing the way to others. And who knoweth not God, **Ipſe notipſum.[himſelf] how can he well teach others to know him? And yet ſuch are all they that hate their brother; that ſin; that are not in the New Covenant; and ſuch (for theſe cauſes) are you alſo, who are called of men both Miniſters and Maſters; and this is even manifeſt to the children of light, and ſhall moreover (in the progreſs of theſe Anſwers, as occaſion is offered) be openly ſhewed and declared. What prayer and faſting had ye when ye were ordained Miniſters? and what impoſition of hands? was not the prayer made by them whoſe very prayer was an abomination to the Lord? and the faſting, was it not of them who faſt for ſtrife and debate? Alſo, the hands impoſed upon you then, were they of other then a crimſon colour, as having been ſtained with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs of Jeſus? But to what purpoſe cited the Anti-queriſt all theſe Scriptures? as though the uſurpers of the late deviſed Ordination were men of the ſame account, gifts and power, as were the holy Apoſtles, who werep. 3filled with the Holy Ghoſt, who did and ſpake as they were thereof moved, who had the gift of tongue; and other miracles; theſe do we know, and own. But what are your Ordainers? Or came at any time the voice of the holy ſpirit to them, ſaying, Seperate ye me ſuch, or ſuch a one for the work of the Ministry? Alſo, what gift do they give by their laying on of hands, which is to be ſtirred up? Is it the ſpirit of Power, of Love, and of a ſound mind? yet ſuch a ſpirit was received by, or with the impoſition of the Apoſtles hands, 2 Tim. 1.6,7. ſee alſo Acts 8.17. & 19.6 Moreover the gift mentioned in the fore-cited 1 Tim. 4 14. was ſo given Timothy by propheſie, with the laying on of the hands of the Presbyterie: Are alſo your gifts (if any) thus received? Is the Spirit of Propheſie aſſiſting, or converſant in your feat of Ordination? Do your Elders at any time declare the truth of their Office and Calling by healing of the ſick? Iam. 4.Jas 4And yet was this gift and faculty annexed, or incident to the Office of Elders, who ſuch were truly, and indeed. Now ſeeing theſe things are not ſo with them, with what kind of impudence then, or rather blaſphemous arrogance do they yet aſſume and challenge to themſelves the Name, when they have in no wiſe the thing it ſelf? but do lack not only all theſe cauſes that did concur to the due creation thereof, but alſo all thoſe vertues, gifts, and faculties that did accompany and ſhew themſelvs in the right adminiſtration or exerciſe of the ſame; wherefore your Ordainers be like to certain Impoſtors that profeſs indeed the true Art of Phyſick, but cannot give a proof thereof by healing any one diſeaſe. Away then with this faſting, praying, hand-laying Ordination, which was never yet followed nor atteſted by a miracle, or any other viſible effect; tis no better then that **Mat. 21.19.Matt 21:19fig-tree that bare indeed leaves, but no fruit at all.

Shortly after he muſtereth up a number of things, and calls them, Doctrines by your Party a…erted; to which I forbear to anſwer▪ he having not reſpectively cited the Books and pages where they might be found: In the mean time it may not ſeem good proof that ſuch or ſuch a thing is p. 4truth, becauſe ſo ſaith Thomas Lye. Neither ought it to be charged on our friends for error or blaſphemie if they ſometimes miſtake the meaning of words, they being in this behalf unlearned, as alſo moſt of Chriſts Diſciples and Miniſters were, whiles the learned Rabbles and Prieſts were bitter oppoſers and perſecutors both of him and them.

section 5 T L. Whether thoſe godly Prieſts and Prophets that lived by a ſtanding-maintenance, are thoſe that are accuſed by Micah 3.11. to teach for hire, &c.

Anſw. Here would ye methinks allude and compare your maintenance to that of the godlie Prieſts and Prophets of old time: Firſt; Where in all the Old-Teſtament find you this Epithet [godly] ſtanding ſo near the word [Prieſt?] I am ſure it's a very rare conjunction. Neither is your implied compariſon a vvhit better; theirs, that is, the Prieſts and Levites, was a voluntarie contribution, and of God himſelf ordained; your's a forcible exaction, and by humane Law, if any; whereof more hereafter.

section 6 Neither was this Querent vvell adviſed when he ſcoffed at She Propheteſſes, (as he hath done) it being a part of Joels Propheſies, I will pour out my spirit upon all fleſh, (ſaith God) and your ſons and your daughters ſhall propheſie, &c. Alſo, Priſcilla was one of thoſe two that inſtructed eloquent Apollos in the things of the Goſpel; God gave the word, and great was the company of the She-Preachers (as the Hebrew reads it.) Pſal. 68.11.

section 7 T. L. Whether Chriſt hath not ordained, That they that preach the Goſpel ſhould live of the Goſpel; and that they which ſow ſpiritual things ſhould reap carnal things, 1 Cor. 9.11,13,19.

Anſw. To ſue men at Law for tithes, to recover trebble damages, to diſtrain mens goods, and take much more then is claimed, is this to live of the Goſpel? Did ever any Prieſt or Prophet in the times of the Law, or any Apoſtle or Miniſter ſince the Goſpel, ſo live either of the Law or Goſpel? Or will ye elſe grant us, That never any of Chriſts Miniſters (mentioned in the Scriptures) did live of the Goſpel? Is itp. 5not much rather to be ſaid, That to live of the Goſpel is to live of ſuch Alms and Contribution as men freelie give to Miniſters, as ſuch, and that vvithout the awe of any outward co-action, terror of trebble damages, or other peril?

section 8 Obj. We alſo live of ſuch means as the Magiſtrate hath freely allotted for our maintenance.

Anſw. If indeed the Magiſtrate (or other) ſhall give of his own private Goods or Lands to what kind of Preachers ſoever for their livelihood, I have nothing here to gain-ſay: But if he ſhall give them that which is another man's, without his conſent, to keep them in idleneſs, I ſee not how this can be juſtified by the Scriptures, or by any ſound reaſon. This alſo were repugnant to Chriſts own Otdinance, namely, That they which preach the Goſpel, ſhould live of the Goſpel; and to live of the Goſpel is not to live of any inforced maintenance, as above is ſhewn; neither can you produce any one ſuch Ordinance of Chriſt, that the Magiſtrate ought to take ſuch courſe for the livelihood of his Miniſters. Now the Ordinance above intreated, and to which the Scripture cited in the Quaery hath reference, we find in Luk. 10.7,8. And in the ſame houſe remain eating and drinking ſuch things as they give, for the labourer is worthy of his hire: And into whatſoever City ye enter, and they receive you, eat ſuch things as are ſet before you. From whence I note theſe things: 1. That the Apoſtles were to eat ſuch things only as were freely miniſtred to them. 2. By them who ſhould receive them. 3. Of their meat, who having a private and proper right therein, ſhould ſo give, or cauſe to be given: Now whether the men of your qualitie do live after this manner and rule, let all ſober men be Judges. And albeit it were true that you ſowed indeed to your hearers ſpiritual things, yet ſhould you not therefore reap their carnal by force, muchleſs take them being reaped. Now what kind of Seed it is you ſowe, doth by the Fruit appear.

section 9 Obj. But if we have nothing allowed for our maintenance, but muſt depend of the charity of our hearers, ſoon may we either beg or starve.

p. 6Anſ. Wherefore if God ſo cloth the graſſe of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is caſt into the Oven, ſhall he not much more clothe you? O ye of little faith! Therefore take no thought, ſaying, What ſhall we eat, or what ſhall we drink, or wherewith ſhall we be clothed, for after all theſe things do the Gentiles (or Heathen) ſeek Matth. 6.30,31,32,33. Now if ſo great be Gods care of ordinary Chriſtians, how much more ſhall he provide for his Miniſters, who are as it were his Embaſſadors, and have ſpecially addicted themſelves to his ſervice? Are you his choice Darlings unto bliſs eternal, and wil not yet truſt him vvith your bodies? Are you his Labourers, and vvill not yet relie on him for your Wages, no, not though you have his own word for it, and ſolemn Engagement? What greater infidelity then this hath any of the Gentiles ever bewrayed? Neither can you avoid the Edge of this Sword by ſaying, Your petitioning the Magiſtrate, indenting with the people for maintenance, &c. is no diſtruſting of God for your livelihood; foraſmuch as the proviſion God makes (& hath made) for his Miniſters Livelihood is by inclining mens hearts to ſupply their neceſſities, and that out of their own private goods, and not out of other mens, as elſewhere I have ſaid.

section 10 T.L. Then do men preach for hire when they make hire their chiefeſt end, &c.

Anſw. Yea; and if they make hire any end at all, do they truly preach for hire; Neither are we juſtlie charged to intrench on Gods prerogative in that we do judg you to preach for hire; for certes that can be no part of Gods Secrets which is manifeſt to all men: By your fruits are you known; Your ſuing to the Magiſtrate or Patrons for the gift of the Benefice; your requiring of, and contracting with thoſe that would have you, for great yearly ſums; and all this before you ſettle any where to preach; alſo your late device of uniting of BENEFICES, but eſpecially your removings from place to place, even out of New-England and Scotland hither, for ſake of a better call, and a lowder; that is to ſay, of a greater revenue; I ſay, all theſe things fully inform us what is the end of your preaching, that we need p. 7not to pry into your hearts to know that which is ſo openly written in your fore-heads for every man to read.

section 11 T. L. Whether the Scripture-ſaying concerning them that preach the Goſpel, That he that ploweth ſhould plow in hope; and that he that threſheth ſhould he made partaker of his hope, 1 Cor. 9,10 doth not allow ſome reſpect to a maintenance for preaching the Goſpel.

Anſw. Your plowing and your threſhing are of one conſideration vvith your ſowing aboveſaid? And plainly, this place is not intended of any violent maintenance, nor yet of a State or Publike Exhibition for Miniſters, as ſuch, which is the thing vve oppoſe. And yet here would I not be thus underſtood, as if I vvere againſt a competent Livelihood to be allowed out of the Publique even unto all men that be in vvant; this in the mean time not omitted, That idle perſons vvho are able to vvork, be compelled thereto. But hovv can you be ſaid to plovv or threſh in hope of a Livelihood, vvhen as this is alvvaies the firſt thing ye make ſure of, and get poſſeſſion of before ye ſettle to plovv or threſh any vvhere? Now that which is thus poſſeſt or aſſured is no longer capable of being hoped for: So your own Weapon recoils upon you, and wounds you.

section 12 It's very unlikely (what ever Tho. Lye believes to the contrary) That either the Hireling abides in true Doctrine, (Can an evil Tree bring forth good fruit?) or that he which preaches freely brings the Doctrine that's falſe; eſpecially, if beſides his free preaching hee's ſure to undergo for his doctrine ſake all manner of deſpight and perſecution. The Hireling is the falſe ſhepherd, and how can it then be hoped he will feed with Doctrine that is true?.

13T. L. Whether it be not lawful for the people of God to dedicate part of their Eſtates for the Worſhip and Service of God? And whether it be a ſin for the Preachers of the Goſpel to receive that which is ſo dedicated? And whether it ſmell not ranckly of an Ananias and Saphira-like ſpirit to with-hold that which is ſo dedicated? Durſt you charge us, That though we feed our ſelves, yet we feed not the Flock?

p. 8Anſ. Tell us who they were, or are, that thus have dedicated part of their Eſtates, when, where, how, by what mean and inſtrument, and finally, for what ſpace of time. Then again, demonſtrate that you are the men that have right to receive it. If this query relate to any ſuch [ſuppoſed] dedication made by our Anceſtors in times of Popery, I then oppoſe the Authority of a man well known by hear-ſay, viz. John Wickliff, who in his Complaint to the King and Parliament, (Printed together with other his works, Anno 1608.) Artic. 3. thus ſaith, Ah Lord Ieſus! where this be reaſon to conſtrain the poor people to finde a worldly prieſt, &c. is pomp and pride, covetiſe, envy, gluttony, drunkeneſſe, leachery, in ſimony and hereſie, with fat horſe and jolly, &c. Ah Lord Jeſu! ſith within few years men paid their tythes and offerings at their own free-will, &c. where it were lawful and needful that a worldly Prieſt ſhould deſtroy this holy and approved cuſtom, conſtraining men to leave this Freedom, &c. Alſo Tho. James, where he induſtriouſly maintaineth the Miniſters right to tythes, alledgeth yet no ſuch dedication made by our Anceſtors, but is forced therein to flye to the Analogy of Scriptures (as he calls it) where he alſo confeſſeth, That the judgement of our Common-Lawyers was, That tyths were not due to any particular Church, before the Council of Lateran, (which was yet a very ſandy foundation) but that men might beſtow them where they would, Anſw. to 6. Obj. of Parſons. In the new Law the paying of the tenth part is by a Law that is made by the Church, that is (by the Biſhops, &c.) Lib. de fund. Legum. Angl. But before I paſs over Wickliffs teſtimony, I ſhall for his greater Authority therein, note to the Reader theſe particulars: 1. He was a man eſteemed to be of great and profound learning. 2 Of eminent piety, truth, & honeſty. 3. He was himſelf a prieſt, & therfore not likely to have been diſpoſed to do or ſay any thing unjuſtly againſt the Commodity either of himſelf, or the reſt of his Order, but rather the contrary, & ſo is here as a double witneſs againſt you. 4 He is acknowledged to have been a man vvell skill'd in the then Lavvs of England, & ſo its not likely that he err'd through ignorance. And fifty, he delivered this his to teſtimony in Complaint to the King p. 9& Parliament, to vvhom no doubt he was (as became him) paſing careful, & every vvay circumſpect, not to offer any thing that might have ſavor'd of defect, either in knovvledge, or charity; or of any diſhoneſt affection, or private end.

Suitably to this Witneſs may it alſo novv be ſaid, that there is no ancient lavv of this Nation, by vvhichwhich the called Miniſters are inabled to ſu for tithes &c in any Court of juſtice or equity that now is (the city of London & liberties therof excepted.)

And what then are they the better, if they have a Law, when they cannot by Law attain the execution and benefit thereof; your ſuing in the Exchequer is without all direction and countenance of Law; yea it is expreſly ††See Star. An. 32. H. 8. C. 7. & An. 2 Edw. 6. C. 13.againſt the Law; & alſo upon moſt falſe pretences: As namely, when in your Bills you ſuggeſt, that you are diſenabled to pay your **It may be 20. or 30. s. a yeare.tenths and **A ſmal ſum paid at their firſt coming &c.firſt fruits, becauſe ſuch or ſuch a one, with-holds from you the tythes &c. when as many times it is but one man againſt whom you ſo complain: Many times but a 10, or. 20 s. matter that you ſue for; although you have both Glebe and Augmentations beſides, to very great values; and the reſt of your Tythes be quietly paid you: (if ſo I may uſe this word, where a thing is not due.)

Furthermore I demand by what good-right, or way of conveyance, could our Anceſtors give away the Lambs that ſhould come of our ſheep; the wool that ſhould grow on our flocks: our apples and ſuch like things, which never were theirs to give, nor then were not yet in being; neither were they capable of ſo much as being certainly known, whether as to their kindes or quantities. Again, its in the choice of the owner of the land, whether he will manure & occupy it, or not: If he will not, then are there no Tythes payable for, or out of it, which is a point conſiderable: For now, were it granted indeed to have been in our Anceſtors power to break, and tranſmit into poſterity, the duty or obligation of paying ſuch Tythes, as are above ſpecified; yet would it notwithſtanding remaine in our own power ſtil wholly to avoid all effect thereof; and this without being lyable to be puniſhed or queſtioned by the Clergy. Moreover, it is to be marked that our fore-fathers who were Papiſts didp. 10little intend, when they gave their Tythes, that they ſhould go and redound to the maintenance, much leſſe the luxury of Proteſtant Miniſters (ſo called) vvho vvith ſuch cruel hatred and deteſtation they perſecuted even to bitter deaths and torments: And one of our great & ancient Lavvs ſaith; Let the will of the giver be obſerved.

But if the Querent reſpect to latter times; neither here do I knovv of any effectual Lavv yet inforce for payment of Tythes. As for the late Ordinances of Parliament tending hereto; its true, that they vvere able to make a great noiſe, ſiting the Parliament: But vvhen once the Parliament vvas diſsolved, they could not novv longer lavvfully be diſcharged. So you ſee you are diſovvn'd both by Lavv and Goſpel, (ſo called) as to your pretence about Tythes: vvhether vvill ye next go, ye vvandring ſtars; whether will ye fly, ye Clouds without vvater.

Now as concerning withholding of Tythes from pariſh Miniſters, the forecited Iohn Wicklife ſeemeth not to have ſmelt any ſuch Ananias and Saphira like ſpirit in them that ſhould ſo do: For thus he reaſoneth in his complaint aforecited: Therefore if our Prelates or other Prieſts whatever they be, **Blemiſht.blecked by ſacrifice of Maumetry, as with covetiſe, that is, openly ſacrifice of falſe Gods, and other great ſins, as pride, Simony, Manquelling, Glotany, Drunkenneſſe and Lechery, by the ſame skill (i.e. Reaſon) Tythes and offerings ſhould be withdrawn from them by Gods Law and be given to poor needy men at enſample of rightful Toby: and therefore it is lawful to Pariſhioners to withhold their Tythes for open fornication of the Curate, and turn them into better uſe: And much more they may & ought to withdraw their Tythes for great ſinns and open; as for Simony, that is Hereſy (as Popes Law ſaith;) and for covetouſneſs, that is, worſhiping of Gods, as holy writ ſaith, and for Pride, envy, and Gluttony and drunkenneſs, ſith by Gods Law and mans Law God curſeth ſuch mens bleſſings and prayers. And a little after; the firſt, if Curates do not their office in word and in enſample that God commandeth, then their ſubjects (i.e. p. 11their Pariſhioners) are not bound to pay them Tythes and offerings; ſince the principal cauſe for which Tythes and offrings ſhould be paid is wanting, the paying of Tythes ſhould ceaſe. Moreover in the ſame Article he thus determineth: But ſuppoſe that ſuch Pariſh Churches (i.e. Benefices) were Lawfully gotten; yet ſith they be ſuperfluous to ſuch men, the Tythes and offrings ſhould be given to poor needy men; as St. Ierom and the Popes Law teacheth. It ſeemes, the Pope himſelfe here to have been more modeſt, and ſober, then to pronounce ſo black a Iudgement (as you in effect have done) againſt them that with-hold their Tythes from the Pariſh Curates, or Miniſters; for he alloweth the Pariſhioners, when the Curate, or Prieſt, hath ſuperfluity of liveings, to beſtow their Tythes to other uſes; and this without purpoſe of enſnaring them in the guilt of an Ananias and Saphira-like ſin; (or caſting them into priſon.)

Concerning Moſes reſpect to the recompence of reward; I ſay that between your reſpect and his is a very great difference: His was to that which was eternal; yours to that which is temporal: His was to Heavenly glory; yours to filthy lucre: Neither is it to be thought, that Chriſt would have ſtiled the falſe ſhepheard, an Hireling, if his reſpect had been only to the recompence of eternal life (as Moſes's was) and not chiefly to the Tythe of Lamb and Wool, &c. (as yours is.)

14T. L. whether thoſe whom Iude condemns for runing greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, were not the ſame with thoſe that periſhed in the gain-ſaying of Corah? whoſe provoaking ſin was, as ſome of yours is, an oppoſition of and riſing up againſt authority in Church and State.

An. If the querent had told us who this ſame were, that ſo riſe up againſt authority &c. He had done us ſome kindneſſe; for ſuch do we mark, and avoid. Now who they be, and of what colour that are oppoſers of Authority in State, may eaſily bee knowne: Read but King Iames's the ſecond Epit.BASILICON DORON, Doctor BAYLY'S p. 12Hiſtory of Iohn Calvin; but eſpecialy the relation of Chriſtopher Love's Conſpiracy; and thou ſhalt find that there lodgeth in this portion of men, a ſpirit of pride, ſtubbornneſs and rebellion, not much inferior to the Jeſuites: Hereunto alſo may be added the ††In his Diſp. with Rivet.teſtimony of Hugo Grotius which is (as I remember) to this purpoſe, viz. There is never any ſtir or rebellion in the Chriſtian world, but they who be called Miniſters of the Goſpel, are chief contrivers [or Promoters] thereof; Where was your obediene to Authority then, when you not only refuſed to take the Engagement, but preached aginſt it, then you refuſed to obſerve days of publike Thanksgiving & Humiliation?And this well know all Chriſtian Princes. And that he did not here exclude the men of your Judgement, may eaſily appeare, if we but conſider the man with whom he hath there to do, and to whoſe reproach he ſpake it. Now as to them that be called quakers, where and what oppoſition do they make againſt Authority, both in Church and State? Is not this indeed Nero-like, who burnt the City of Rome, and then laid the blame upon the Chriſtians? Name (if you can) one man of our way, that hath done any wrong to others. Contrariwiſe, what kind of harme, and injury have they not received from others, eſpecialy from the men of your Function? yet when did they render evil for evil; when did your cruelty overcome their patience? Thruſting, Beating, Haleing, and almoſt death it ſelfe do they many times endure at your hearers hands and fiſts; and that before your very faces, and even in your Solemn Aſſemblies: yet who of them made ever any reſiſtance in ſuch caſe? or did open his lips ſo much to revile? And is not both this a right Chriſtian ſpirit, and that ſuch a one as the Devil himſelfe would be abaſht to defend? But wherin do ſome of ours make oppoſition or riſe up againſt Authority &c.? Do they not ever come, when the Magiſtrate ſends for them? and go when he bids them go? or all the while they are before him (or elſewhere) do they do him any harme in Body, Goods, or Name? Did they ever break priſon, or eſcape out of Cuſtody? And for all thoſe injuries they received & ſuffered at the Magiſtrates hands (which for multitude cannot be numbered) did they ever ſo much as ſeek for ſatisfaction or amends againſt him? Now name p. 13ye unto us on the other hand, of all your Party one only man (if you can) whom ye may dare to match and parallel with theſe men for true Chriſtian meekneſs and patience, ſo bearing all kind of wrongs, and as touching the Magiſtrate and Authority for very friendlineſs and exact obedience: Theſe of all men elſe in the world can better take wrong then give it: Matth. 18.22.Matt 18:22Theſe are they alone that can forgive their brothers offences, though again and again repeated, though even unto ſeventy, times ſeven, they do at length amount. In theſe finally, now after long death and utter oblivion, is the true Chriſtian ſpirit and perfect mind revived again, and unto mankind reſtored. No marvel is it then if they hear like ſlanders and reproaches, and the ſame entertainment do find and …eel with the men of the world, as alſo their Lord and Example, Chriſt Jeſus, did before them; He before them was accuſed to have a Devil, to break and ſubvert the Law and Religion; to have ſpoken blaſphemy, and many like crimes and miſdemeanors to be guilty of: And the ſervant is not above his Lord, neither muſt the Diſciple expect to fare better then his Maſter did before him: But it's like you intend their not putting off the hat, and refuſing to ſwear, to be this oppoſition and riſing up againſt Authority, &c. if ſo, then it ſeems by your account, that Mordecai alſo (a far better Jew than any or your Sect are Chriſtians) was guilty of like oppoſition and riſing up againſt Authority, for that he in like ſort refuſed to bow to, or to riſe before, or to do any reverence at all to Haman, the next man in dignity & degree to the King, who alſo had commanded Mordecai that he ſhould reverence Haman, and that under ſuch a penalty as threatned death to no fewer then to all the Jews in his Kingdom. But I ask, What is Authority the worſe, or how is it more empaired by a mans keeping on his Hat before the Magiſtrate, then if he ſhould put it off? Suppoſe that no man at all would put off his Hat to another, ſhew us now what miſchief or harm would by this means befall Authority, eſpecially if they were in all things elſe equally obedient and conformable to Authority, as are the people called Quakers. p. 14Again, what is Authority the worſe if men will not ſwear at all? Can civil Authority at no hand ſubſiſt without mens yeilding obedience to the pride of man, and diſobeying the Law of God? Now ſo confident I am of our cauſe, that to your own very conſcience I appeal to ſay who they be that oppoſe and riſe up againſt Authority both in Church and State, whether your …riends or ours: Yours at mid-day, and in open place doubt not to ſtrike, kick, pull, hale, drag and impriſon men of rare innocency and of excellent vertues, that unto them had done no violence; that do not provoke them ſo much by any unſeemly word or geſture; that being harmed of them, do no harm to them again; finally, that expoſe themſelves alſo both unto all theſe, & yet farther ſufferings for their ſouls good, who thus miſuſe them: And all theſe things have your friends doue, without either Judge, Witneſs, or ſo much as Accuſer. Tell me now what is this to be deem'd but a kind of Rebellion, and broad-fac't Contempt againſt the Laws of this Nation, and the Magiſtrate thereof? But what had theſe ſufferers done? even this, Something being revealed to them from the Lord, they ſpake the ſame in all ſoberneſs, he that firſt ſpake having ended his ſpeech, and this in obedience to the Lord, and according to the Scriptures, 1 Cor. 14.29 30,31. And again, are not they the very men that oppoſe Authority in Chriſts Church, who break his Laws and Commandments daylie? who drink down iniquity as an Ox drinketh water, and glory in their ſhame? and ſuch be moſt of your friends and followers: Are theſe men like to be ſuch great friends unto, and ſupporters of the Churches Authority? Indeed, without theſe your Synagogues cannot ſtand.

T.L. Where are thoſe warlike preparations? where thoſe conſpiracies for devouring of them that differ from us in Religion?

Anſ. Read but the Relations of the late Wars in Scotland, and ſpecially of Chriſtopher …oves …onſpiracy, and there ſhalt thou find where the warlike preparations were: Read alſo the Law, or Bill, made and contrived by the Aſſembly of Divines,p. 15ſo called, and by rhem recommended to the Parliament, and there wilt thou find the conſpiracies for devouring of them that differ from you in Religion: Moreover what may we term thoſe many Petitions that by the men of your order were not long ago ſent to the Parliament? ſurely the aim and intent thereof was for devouring more perſons than only James Nayler and his Adherents; let the effects thereof be witneſs: Look alſo on the children that ſince are born, and deny (if thou mayeſt) That a Prieſt was their Father? Who can it doubt that ſhall have once viewed and noted well their faces? So full of black lines they be, and ſignatures of malice; verily their ſullen and miſchievous countenance will not bear to be gueſſed that they came and took nature of other blood then which runs in your very veins: Pilate indeed condemned Chriſt, but 'twere the Prieſthood that laid the plot aforehand: Theſe, theſe were the men that not only as Authors, did deviſe ſhape, and preſcribe to others the means, method, and order of betraying and killing Chriſt, but alſo as Actors themſelves they did, and executed many things againſt him: Theſe miniſtred as it were to the Ship, in which was imbarqued this ſo nefarious deſign, both Wind for the motion, and Art and Counſel for the ſteerage thereof and conduct. Be they any whit better now, who bear the ſame Name: Oh how much worſe! Thoſe, that is to ſay, the Jewiſh Prieſts, had for their proceedings the countenance of a Law; theſe do all things [herein]**i.e. Inſtrument of Government. contrary to the Law. Thoſe killed not Jeſus till above thirty years old; theſe would have ſtifled him in the Womb. Thoſe in one body of fleſh only; theſe in thouſands. Thoſe, for putting end to, and croſſing their way of Worſhip; theſe for very practiſing and being what themſelves profeſs and pretend to be: In ſum; Thoſe, though they were the worſt of all Jews, ſeem yet to have been much better then they who would be counted the very beſt of Chriſtians.

p. 16section 16 T. L. Whether it be a ſin to endeavor to take the Foxes that ſpoil the Vines? Cant. 2.15, &c. Anſ. If all ſuch Foxes were taken and kept in reſtraint, how many of you Teachers would then be at liberty? The Grapes of Chriſts Vines are love, joy, peace, long-ſuffering, goodneſs, faith, meekneſs, temperance, Gal. 4.12. Now where are the Foxes among us that ſpoile ſuch Grapes as theſe? On the other hand, What Congregation is there of yours in which are not plentiful Litters of ſuch Beaſts to be found, except for their ravening nature they be rather to be named Wolves then Foxes.

section 17 And who they be that entice to ſerve other Gods, wil then be put out of doubt, when as every man ſhall receive according to his works; and then ſhall ſad tydings be to them who now for a while are counted and called Miniſters of the Goſpel. We ſerve that God who is worſhipped in ſpirit and in truth, who is light, who is love; if other God ye ſerve then this, (for it may ſeem by your query you worſhip not ours) it's plain that it is the god of this world, who ruleth in the children of diſobedience; and therefore it is that in this world alſo ye do receive your reward, the kingdoms of the World, and the glory thereof

section 18 Surely the Apoſtle in Tit. 1.11. 1 Tim 4.1. (in the Query cited) did not mean that mens mouths ſhould be ſtopt with a hand, or a fiſt, as the manner is of your diſciples to do, with many a ſhrewd blow, and miſchief beſides: Neither meant he any outward reſtraint or force whatſoever; for when were the falſe Teachers mouths ſo ſtopt? it being as it were the lot and portion of falſe Teachers in all ages to have the earthly powers of their ſide, and all manner of favour, encouragement, and protection from the Magiſtrate, but they that will live godly in Chriſt Jeſus ſhall ſuffer perſecution, 2 Tim. 3.2.

section 19 Neither did the Angel in the Church of Epheſus, Rev. 2.2. uſe any outward violence toward them who ſaid they were Apoſtles, and were not, &c. (as neither do the people of God to the falſe Apoſtles now-a-daies:) But by not bearing, p. 17here is meant not owning and acknowledging, &c. for otherwiſe it's very abſurd to imagine that this Angel did beat, whip, ſtigmatize, pillor, fine, or impriſon both the falſe Apoſtles here meant, and the reſt that were evil, for theſe alſo were not born, (as aforeſaid) which thing if you Teachers ſhould once put in practiſe upon all your evil hearers, (and I think you count your ſelves Angels) how many would you then have left for an audience? And it's plain this Angel was not ſo much in favour with the ſecular Powers, that he was able (if never ſo willing to have effected ſuch penalties on the falſe Apoſtles and evil men; the Angels themſelves in thoſe times (as now alſo) being of all other moſt obnoxious to the wrath and cruelty of the Civil Power, as credible Hiſtories do aſſure us.

section 20 T. L. Whether it be a ſin to hate the Whore, and to eat her fleſh, &c. Rev. 17.16. Anſw. It is not to be believed you love the Whore ſo ill as to eat her fleſh. Go curb thy luſts, vanquiſh thy affections, and bring them to ſubmit to the yoke of Chriſt, and then ſhalt thou know the Whore here meant, and her fleſh; till then thou doeſt but feed her of thy own fleſh, inſtead of eating of hers.

21T.L. Whether we ought not to oppoſe Popery, though (Jezzabel-like) it appears under a ſpecious paint.

Anſ. Yea; but then ye muſt be ſelf-oppoſers: I will not here ſay what a very eminent man feared not to preach, and that before the Parliament, viz. That Presbyterie was in ſome reſpects worſe then Popery it ſelf: See Peter Sterry's Sermon preached before the Parl. on occaſion of the Victory obtained againſt the Scots, &c.

section 22 T.L. Becauſe many evil-doers did not turn from their wickedneſs in the dayes of the Prophets, Chriſt, and the Apoſtles, was therefore their Miniſtry ſucceſleſs? Iſa. 53.3. Joh. 12.38. Rom. 10.16.

Anſ. If you Teachers had turn'd from their wickdneſs ſo many evil-doers as thoſe here mentioned in this Quaery, (one of you with one of them compared) I ſhould grant indeed your Miniſtry not to have bin ſucceſleſs, but rather of great effect:p. 18But now if any man liſteth to know the ſucceſs of your Miniſtry, and ſo to judge of this queſtion, let him but come into your Meetings, and there let him ſpeak as ſoberly as he can, or elſe be ſilent, with his hat on, & ſoon ſhall he diſcern it may be with danger of life, or limb, what ſucceſs your Miniſtry hath, or rather what ſpirit your hearers be baptizd into: Who were they, I pray; & what kind of proof did they give of the Miniſterial ſucceſs, who ſtir'd up the people, & laid hands on Paul, being in the Temple, crying out, Men of Iſrael help; This is the man that teacheth all men every where againſt the people, and the Law, and this Place; and farther, brought Greeks alſo into the Temple, and hath polluted this Holy Pla…e: And all the City was moved, & the people ran together, and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple, &c. And as they went ab…ut to kill him, &c. And when they ſaw the chiefe Captain and Souldiers, they left beating of Paul, &c. Acts 21.27,28, and ſo along. And yet if (a few Names only changed) this place were rehearſed any where in England, would any man doubt it to be meant and truly related of your Hearers.

section 23 T.L. Is it not an Argument of matchleſs pride in you, thus boldly to condemn the whole generation of the juſt that either have lived, or do yet remain in the Land of the living, for evil doers, and perſons not turned from their wickedneſs, &c.

Anſw. I never ſo condemned the generation of the juſt, as this quaery implies; for my quaery had reference only to your Hearers, whom when you ſhall have proved to be the generation of the juſt, I ſhall then confeſs your Argument; in the mean time I ſhall never doubt to account them for a wicked and adul…erous generation, ſo long as I ſee them with the ſame ill conditions as had they whom therefore the Scriptures have ſo termed.

section 24 But unto what purpoſe have ye mentioned the Noble Martyrs and their fiery Chariots, as though you with them had any affinity or conjunction? Verily you are the children of them who ſent thoſe Martyrs in fiery Chariots to Heaven (to uſe your own words) though you can novv adorn and celebrate p. 19their memories as it were with garniſhed Sepulchres, as did your fore-fathers alſo, the Scribes and Phariſees towards the holy Prophets, whom yet in other bodies (as it were) they had moſt cruelly ſlain: Like as your Anceſtors did to thoſe you call godly Martyrs, ſo do ye now to the Saints of God ſo far as you have power; and that you extend not your cruelty to death it ſelf, is no thank to you; nor may it be interpreted as the voluntary bound of your malice, as is well known.

section 25 T.L. Shall all thoſe, &c. Anſ. The way to heaven is but one. and a very narrow one; it will at no hand receive the vaſt and ſpreading Compaſs of Tithes, Glebe, Augmentations, together with the love of the world, and luſts of the fleſh; theſe in no wiſe can be gotten in, the waie's ſo ſtrait.

section 26 T.L. Whether, ſuppoſing that Timothy followed the command of Paul, viz. in meditating on that Word which he was to deliver, &c. as alſo, in ſtudying in the diſcharge of his Miniſtry, &c. he might therefore be juſtly charged to ſpeak viſions of his own heart?

Anſw. Timothy vvas an holy man, and holy men of God ſpake as they were moved by the Holy Ghoſt, 2 Pet. 1.21. Alſo had Timothy received a gift which was given by Propheſie, with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery, 1 Tim. 4.14. and the ſpirit of power, of love, and of a ſound mind. Now dare ye ſay, (even he that is moſt arrogant among ye) That ſuch a gift, ſuch a ſpirit as was in Timothy, ye alſo have received? The Bee can convert into honey ſuch Juices as ſhe gathereth from Flowers: The Spider contrariwiſe is ſaid to turn the ſame Juices into poiſon. Pick out the meaning.

Timothy when he cited the ſayings of other holie men, wel knevv vvhat he ſpake, his underſtanding and ſpirit alſo being ſutable and commenſurate with the things he ſaid: Neither did his life give his Doctrine the lie.

section 27 T.L. Whether thoſe that ſo far ſlight the Majeſtie of the great God and his Divine Oracles, as upon pretext of immediate inſpiration, to ruſh upon them vvithout premeditation, &c.

Anſw. Suppoſe ye that they vvho ſpake as the ſpirit gavep. 20them utterance, Acts 2.4. as they were moved by the Holy Ghoſt, 2 Pet. 1.21. in whom the Spirit of the Father did ſpeak without their taking thought how or what to ſpeak, Matth. 10.19,20. I ſay, did all theſe premeditate what they ſhould ſay? and yet vvere they not therefore ſlighters of the Majeſtie of the great God, and his Divine Oracles, as impiouſlie this quaery (by conſequent) ſuppoſeth them to have been.

Or think ye that they who were Chriſts Embaſſadors, did by long premeditation & ſtudy engender and compoſe thoſe Meſſages which as Chriſts Embaſſadors they did deliver to others? The Woman that ſpeaketh not without taking thought aforehand what and how to ſpeak, here duty is (not to teach others, but her ſelf) to learn in ſilence. Go learn what this meaneth.

section 28 To the following quaery, concerning reading, quoting, and making uſe for edification the Books of the Prophets, Apoſtles, &c. I anſwer, That he that is duly called to this honor may take it; but unto you, thus ſaith the Lord, What have ye to do to take my word into your mouths while ye hate to be reformed? Or can ye, being evil, ſpeak good things? Or can ye propheſie when the Spirit of the Lord never reſteth upon you. It was not for every one to bear the Ark that had a ſhoulder; neither yet is it lawful to every one to ſay The Lord liveth, although he have a tongue, and a voluble one too, left he be found a tranſgreſſor even in ſpeaking that thing which is true, becauſe not commanded, or nor meetly qualified thereunto.

section 29 T. L. Whether theſe quaeries which you ſent us were immediately inſpired▪ or rather, Whether there were not a conſpiracie among you for the inventing and penning of them? &c.

Anſ. The Author of thoſe quaeries pretended not himſelf to be a Miniſter of the Goſpel, but did direct them indeed to ſuch as ſay they are Miniſters, and are not, but are found lyars, Rev. 2.2. Neither was there any the leaſt conſpiracie among us for inventing and penning thoſe quaeries; neither were they glean'd out of the Papers and Pamphlets of any ſeducing Leaders: Ye thought we were ſuch ones as your ſelves; but our wayes are not like yours:

p. 21T.L. Whether it be an Argument of covetouſneſs in an humble and orderlie waie, to deſire opportunitie, libertie, countenance, and maintenance from a Chriſtian Magiſtrate for the comfortable diſcharge of our gifts and abilities?

Anſw. A Chriſtian Magiſtrate will readily give opportunity, liberty, and countenance to the Miniſters of Chriſt for to diſcharge their Miniſterial gifts and abilities, though by them never hereunto deſired, (will he forbid or reſtrain them) or elſe ſhall he be no Chriſtian Magiſtrate, but rather an Antichriſtian: And as for maintenance, that will he alſo provide them if their heavenly Father (as Chriſt hath promiſed) feed them not, Matth: 6.26. But friends, if ye ſeek first of all the kingdom of God, and the righteouſneſſe thereof, (though you never in this humble and orderlie waie deſire of the Magiſtrate food and raiment) all theſe things ſhall be added unto you: But you by not believing the promiſes of God, but ſeeking after all theſe things, do openlie bewray of what generation ye are, for after all theſe things do the heathen ſeek, Mat. 6.32.

And here by the waie I cannot but this obſerve, That you who with ſuch open confidence claim to your ſelves the glorious titles of Miniſters and Embaſſadors of Chriſt, do yet reckon your ſelves it effect to be leſs regarded of God then the very Fowls of the air, for theſe the heavenly Father (and not the Magiſtrate) feedeth, (and rayeth too) Matth 6.26:

Here alſo I do require of you to ſhew any one example in the New-Teſtement, or any thing like an example, where the Miniſters of Chriſt did ever once ſue the civil Magiſtrate for any of theſe things mentioned in the quaery: But hereof more hereafter.

section 31 Obj: There is as much equity for a publike maintenance to be allowed to the Miniſters of the Goſpel now, as there was herotofore to the Tribe of Levi under the Law.

Anſ. 1: The Levites were forbidden to have any Inheritance among the people, Numb. 18.25.

Anſ. 2: The tithes under the Law were not onelie for the ſuſtenance of the Tribe of Levi, but alſo of the ſtranger, the p. 22fatherleſſe, and the widow, that they might eat and be filled Deut. 26.12.13. Deut. 14.29 So that the ſtore-houſe for Tythes mentioned Mal. 3 19. had far greater allyance and reſemblance to Hoſpitals and Alms-houſes, then to the called Miniſters Parſonage-Barnes, and Places of receit &c.

An. 3. The man and his houſe were alſo to eat of the tythes or the proceed thereof Deut. 14.26.

An. 4: The year of tything among the Iews was on the third year Deut. 26.12. Deut. 14.28.

An. 5: The Owner of the tythable Lands was to lay up the tythes within his gates Deut: 14:28: And not the Levite to carry them Captive into his own private Barnes; as now the called Miniſters uſe to do: from whence, as to the relief of the ſtranger, the fatherleſſe and the widow, (with many of them) there is no more return, then is redemption out of Hell.

An: 6: The Miniſters of the Goſpel ought to bee conformable as wel in point of maintenance as in other things, to the ordinances, rules, and examples, touching this matter, which are contained in the new Teſtament, which alſo you do pretend to be your rule of life, as well as of faith: Who ſo do otherwiſe, albeit they be called and counted Miniſters of Chriſt; yet is it manifeſt that they ſerve not the Lord Jeſus, but their own bellies Phil. 3.19. where alſo they may read their Doome: Whoſe end is deſtruction.

And here I ſhall admoniſh the Reader once for all, that for the moſt part in this controverſie touching Miniſters maintenance, I thus have diſputed with the adverſaries, as men yet perſonating true Miniſters of Chriſt: certainly my anſwers have equally concluded theſe alſo as to the maintenance here debated; whereupon it followes that though all thoſe Scriptures & reaſons above alledged were valid enough to warrant a ſtate or publique maintenance for Chriſts true Miniſters; yet will they ſtand our adverſaries in no ſtead at all, but be unto them as broken ſtaffs, untill they alſo ſhall have proved themſelves to be ſuch Miniſters, which is a difficulty no leſſe then for a Camel to paſs through a Needles eye.

p. 23T.L. Whether your Seducing Leaders may not be as juſtly charged to ſcent fat houſes at vaſt diſtances (even as farr as Dan to Beerſheba, from the North to the Weſt of England) as Miniſters to ſcent fat Benefices?

32An. The Leaders among us (nor others) do not break up mens houſes nor diſtrain their goods; nor finally uſe they any forcible or ſiniſter means, whereby they may have to live of: But are freely invited to thoſe thou calleſt, fat houſes; and there what is ſet before them do they eat; according to Luke 10.7.8. Do your Leaders alſo do ſo too? No, yours are firſt to go in an humble and orderly way to the Magiſtrate, for Warrant to collect and recover a large Revenew, before you eſpouſe your gifts and abilities to any particular Flock (as you cal't:) Tis muck makes marriage with you.

Think ye in your conſciences, that our Leaders, as you call them, would have relinquiſhed their own Countries Habitations, Kindreds, Callings, Eſtates, with many other things dear to men; for to travel ſo many miles & with ſo many difficulties to conflict, ſuch & ſo many ſcoffs, taunts, ſtripes, hurly burlyes, and tumults; ſtocks, queſtionings, perils, and finally both long and greivous impriſonments, voluntarily to undergo and indure, and all for ſake of a Fat houſe, or the like? ſure, ye cannot ſo think; ſay what ye will. Although, (to retort this matter upon your ſelves) it be not only thought, but even certainly known; that whole ſwarms of the men of your faculty, have come out of Scotland and New England hither, for ſake of our larger Benefices; though its like enough they felt no great want (certainly not ſuch a pinching one, as to make them ſtart ſo great way,) in the places where they formerly reſided.

But how much the men of your Coate, do prefer their own outward eaſe, before the ſervice of Chriſt, is manifeſt by this; that on every light occaſion, untouch'd, unharm'd, they croſſe the Seas, and away for another Land; wherein they ſeem one degree (at leaſt) worſe then the Hireling Shepherds in Iohn 10.12. for hee firſt ſaw the Wolfe comingp. 24ere he left the ſheep and fled; whereas your fellow ſhepherds haſt away, when as there is no danger in view; ſo far they are from laying down their lives for their ſheep, which yet is the part and property of a good ſhepherd, (Iohn 10.11.) Alſo what kind of ſhepherds were they, and what title of honor deſerve they for their courage who in the late wars, ſo unanimouſly left their flocks, and fled, not once adventuring to ſuſtain the leaſt hazard, either for them, or with them: Are not theſe rather Cowards then ſhepherds; and Mercenaries rather then Volunteers? And yet of this ſort conſiſt your holy godly Orthodox Miniſters, and renowned Champions for truth (miſcalled ſo.)

section 33 T. L. Whether there be not many Miniſters (whoſe record is on high) that never ſolicited to obtain, but were much ſolicited to accept of thoſe particular Flocks, over whom the holy Ghoſt hath made them overſeers?

An… Even thoſe of your order, that thus are ſolicited to accept your particular Flocks, I trow they be not ſuch yet, as be content with the Lamb and wool, only of thoſe ſheep, which (as in recompence of their Paſtors care) are willing to give them theſe things; I believe their hands are of yet a far wider graſpe: Do not even theſe your choice ones, your rare ones, your men for oſtentation, Reap where they never Sowed? Spoile they not of their fleeces, theſe ſheep alſo which never were accounted as of their Fold; but alwayes rejected their care, and overſeerſhip?

Neither did the holy Ghoſt make ſuch men overſeers; but their own, and their followers wills, and deceit.

section 34 T. L. Whether it may not be lawful when the glory of God and good of Soules require, to leave a leſſe and go to a greater congregation?

An. Do ye not much more frequently go from greater to leſſer congregations where …he profits yet be greater? for who is there now ſo blind among us that ſeeth not clearly, that all ſuch your motions and trudgings from Pariſh to Pariſh do reſt alwayes, as in their center, in places of larger revenue, then thoſe you laſt left? Have you the boldneſſe p. 25to deny it? I cite for witneſſes againſt you, not hundreds, nor thouſands, but well neare all the Pariſhes in England: As for thoſe Benefices, that are poore and having little Dowry; are they not like a widow forſaken? Have theſe their doores ever knocked at by you? exce… perhaps at a Harveſt time, or other good ſeaſon, it be for your profitt (not for Gods glory, and good of ſouls) to viſit them; truly you can paſſe by ſuch (how ſick and ill ſoever) as the Prieſt and the Levite (your Anceſtors) did by the wounded man going to Iericho. So that it may ſeem you account all mean Beneficed Pariſhes to be but flocks of Reprobates; and ſo not to be for the Glory of God to endeavour their ſalvation; but rather to promote their damnation; to make for the Glory of his juſtice: (as you ſomtimes ſpeak.)

T. L. Whether thoſe Miniſters at leaſt muſt not by your ſelves be pronounced not covetous, that have either gone section 35 from greater Benefices and ſate down in leſſer, where the work has been more, and the reward leſs? or elſe have remained in leſser, and oftentimes refuſed the proffers of greater?

An. How many ſuch Phaenix's can ye number among you? How many ſuch black Swans? May not all of your Tribe that be ſuch, be conveniently covered under a Buſhell, and this without lack of roome? It may have been indeed, that heretofore in the times when tythes were in danger to be aboliſhed, ſome of your brethren, being pretty well beloved of the Pariſhes where they dwelt, thought it no part of prudence to change a certainty for an uncertainty, though of greater value for the preſent: So ſtill here was cheriſht the plant of covetouſneſs, though in a walled Garden.

section 36 T. L. Whether it be not a ſlander caſt on many Miniſters in this Nation, to ſay that they indent for a maintenance [An. Tis true that many of the called Miniſters do ſo indent, and therefore no ſlander to charge it on many: Note here by the way, Reader, the querent calls it a ſlander, to charge them with ſuch indentings for a maintenance; If the thing be lawful to be done, and agreeable to the Scriptures (as moſt of p. 26theſe men pretend it to be) why do he yet call it a ſlander, if one affirme it of them? for ſlanders are of things evil in their nature, and not of things Lawful to be done: This is therefore no leſſe then an implicit confeſſion, that who ſo of the called Miniſters, thus indent for maintenance, they do committ that which is evil; ſeeing if this matter be charged on another, that hath not don it, tis by them called a ſlander; That is, an evil matter falſly charged.]

Further he ſaith—When as tis wel known many of them live on a free contribution [An. Call ye not that a free contribution which men yeeld unto you for fear of the Law, and of trebble damages &c. When they give you that, which if they refuſe, ye are ready to take by force to their great loſſe and trouble to boote: Such a free contribution as this, is, when a true man delivers his purſe for fear of the ſword or Piſtoll.]

Again ſaith he—And others very many preach hundreds of Lectures gratis. &c. An. And how many hundreds be there among you, that take a ſtipend, or other reward for their Lectures? But who ſeeth not this buſineſs of Lecturing, is even become with many of you Preachers as an occaſion of merry meetings, and a kind of recreation? (To omitt other ends yet worſe then theſe:) Moſt commonly the Lecture is but the ſecond edition of a Sermon formerly preached, and for which ye were richly paid; and ſo ye might well afford to give it away another time gratis.

section 37 T. L. For thoſe who in theſe unſetled times, think it fit to be at ſome ſettlement with their people, [An. It ſhould ſeem then it is in their own power and choiſe to ſettle where they liſt, and are not at Gods diſpoſal to be ſent to this or that place; as unto him may ſeem good: Made ye were Miniſters by the wil of man, and ſo is the adminiſtration of your office ſuitable to its creation ſtil in the will of man.] He addeth—Whether a prudent care of providing for their own, and ſo not being worſe then an Infidell, 1. Tim. 5 8. [An. If ye be of the flock of Chriſt; much more if ye be his ſhepherds (as you pretend to bee) this prudent care isp. 27needeleſs; for the Heavenly Father provides for ſuch; ſee before: Neither is it lawful for you to ſhun this point of Infidelity, by taking, or begging other mens eſtates to provide-for your own, no more then it is for a man being in want to take or begg an others goods of him that cannot juſtly give them.] 'It followes—and fear of giving occaſion of offence, if really forced to remove forwant of a competent maintenance [An. Do we any where read ſuch ſentences in the Scriptures? Here hath the queriſt in effect confeſſed, that their Removals (at leaſt ſomtimes) is for want of a competent maintenance: What's that? let us be informed: Whom of theſe Removers ſhall we take, as having defined unto us what, and how much his competent maintenance is? Some have removed from 50 l. 60 l. 70 l. 80 l. 100 l. 150 l. 200 l. by the yeare, to places of greater profit. Now ſay that 80 l per Annum is a competent maintenance (and I truſt ye will not deny it) all ſuch then, as having this maintenance or a greater, did nevertheleſſe give eare to the call of a louder Benefice, muſt needs be condemned of Avarice, love of filthy lucre, and that by Judgement not to be reverſed, no, not in your own Court of conſcience; ſo corrupt and partial as it is: Now how many ſuch there have been, is not my purpoſe here to recount; nor ſcarce a great Volume would ſuffice to contain them; nor are their names worthy even to be remembred; ſo many and ſo bad they be: Then ſaith he; 'As alſo the feare of tempting God inſtead of truſting him, Mathew 4.7. [An. There's no fear at all of Incurring Gods wrath by thus tempting of him; which were indeed but to confeſſe his truth, and honeſty, by truſting to his own promiſe; ſee before: But what makes this Scripture to the purpoſe? Did Chriſt in that place forbid you, or the Miniſters of the Goſpel, (while he reproved the Devil) to depend upon God for lively-hood?]

It followeth—'Are not ſufficient grounds to induce ſome Miniſters to procure a promiſe of a Goſpel lively-hood, [An. A Goſpel lively-hood is, having food and rayment, to be therewith content; not to have our luſts ſupplyed to all exceſſe, and luxury, both in food and rayment. But where dop. 28we find this kind of bargaining for Miniſters mantenance in the Scriptures? Indeed we do read ſuch a thing in Micah. 2.11. The Prieſts thereof teach for hire, and the Prophets thereof Divine for money &c. Alſo, we have ſuch Teachers foretold in 2. Pet. 2.1.2.3. But there were alſo falſe Prophets among the people even as there ſhall be falſe Teachers among you, Who privily ſhall bring in damnable Hereſies &c. & through covetouſneſſe ſhall they, with fained words, make merchandize of you: and in ver. 14. Having eyes full of Adultery, and that cannot ceaſe from ſin, beguiling unſtable ſouls: an heart they have [Mark what a one it is;] exerciſed with covetous practices; curſed children which have forſaken the right way, and are gone aſtray following the way of Balaam the ſon of Boſor, &c. This Balaam is he that propheſied for gifts and rewards: See alſo Iudes Epiſtle; and there mayſt thou ſee theſe Mercenary Teachers limmed as it were in a Prophetical picture or Idea, when as yet they were rather ſeen then felt. But to the query briefly thus I anſwer; If ye be Miniſters of man, and not of Chriſt, its then conſentaneous, that from man yee do alſo procure a promiſe for maintenance, and not that ye rely on God in this behalfe; ſeeing his promiſe and care hereabout reſpecteth true Miniſters, and not ſuch as ye are. But be it ſuppoſed, that ye ſhould procure no ſuch promiſe for your maintenance: Suppoſe all forced maintenance were taken a way, Do you believe notwithſtanding, that God and the people would adminiſter to you a competent maintenance? If you do ſo believe, then what need of this indenting, and procuring of promiſe for ſuch competent maintenance; together with your ſuits to the Magiſtrate and others? (For none of theſe things did Chriſts Miniſters of old time practice, and yet had they food and rayment even to contentment.) If you do not believe it, but do doubt thereof, then do you clearly manifeſt that you eſteem your ſelves to be leſſe regarded both of God and man, then thoſe you count and call ſeducing Leaders, and Teachers of Hereſie, Blaſphemy, &c. for all ſuch, you ſee, have a competent maintenance, and yet do they never indent, or uſe other ſuch meanes to obtain it, as youp. 29do: Neither yet are they Murmerers and Complainers as both the falſe Teachers in Jude 16. and moſt of you are, about things pertaining to maintenance; VVill ye deny it? I appeal to the Court of Exchequer (which yet is your greateſt friend) I appeal to all the Pariſhes (almoſt) in England, If ſuch ye be not. And for a concluſion of this Anſwer, I do ſeriouſly commend unto you (ye indenting Covenanting Preachers) the reading of Matth. 26. eſpecially the 15. verſ. And [Judas] ſaid unto them, VVhat will ye give me? &c. and they Covenanted with him for thirty pieces of Silver. Is not here your very type? Can any two things be more alike, than Judas and you? What will ye gi…e me (ſaith he)? Acknowledge ye not this language? And they covenanted with him, &c. And is not this your **For Covenanting is a mutual or reciprocal Action.practiſe alſo? Not one Egg more like another.

section 38 T.L. VVhether the Apoſtles did ever forbid all Suits before Chriſtians? 1 Cor. 6.1,2,3,4,5.

Anſw. By the place here cited, it appeareth, That the Apoſtle reprehended, and that ſeverely, the Corinthians, for going to Law before the unjuſt and unbeleevers; adviſing them in effect to refer their Controverſies unto the Judgement of the Saints and Chriſtian Brethren. Now the Chriſtians in thoſe times, as is well known, were not Judges of Civil Courts, and ſo had not power to enforce the execution of their Judgement (if at any time they had judged of Controverſies) or otherwiſe to puniſh the Contemners thereof. Had you alſo ſued in ſuch manner, and with like event, we ſhould then have little to ſay againſt you, touching this point. And yet here doth the Apoſtle allow no better event, and fruit of ſuch Judgements, than is above implyed: For had he been otherwiſe minded, I ſee no reaſon why he ſhould have ſo grievouſly taxed theſe Corinthians. But how ſure a Patron the ſame Paul is to your unreaſonable Suits at Law; If ye liſt to know, read but the 9th verſe of the fore-quoted Chapter: N…w therefore there is utterly a fault among ye, becauſe ye go to Law one with another: Why do ye not rather take wrong? Why do ye not rather ſuffer your ſelves to be defrauded? p. 30Oh, how is this Scripture, ſo full of right Chriſtian Spirit, by men of your Trade contemned! Do you never go to Law, but before the Saints, as Paul here adviſeth? Do you never Sue before the unjuſt, which Paul here diſſwadeth: Think ye it was ſutable to this mind of Paul, to approve your many and coſtly Suits, with your trebble Damages to boot; eſpecially your title to the thing Demanded, and other circumſtances being withal conſidered? Yea, rather with what indignation and bitterneſs, would he have pronounced, There's utterly a fault amongſt you? See more in the next Section.

section 39 T.L. VVhether Miniſters may not make uſe of one Ordinance of God for the upholding of another, viz. Miniſters Maintenance? 1 Cor. 9.14.

Anſw. You are firſt of all to prove that you are that, whereof you deceitfully vaunt your ſelves, viz. Chriſts true Miniſters: In the mean time you do but ſtrutt and ſwagger under a falſe Name, like as ſometimes vile Scenicks do in a Princes robe and Perſon. To your Query therefore I give this Anſwer; If Chriſts true Miniſters ye be not, then it follows that your Miniſtery is not at all to be upheld, but rather caſt down. But if ye be ſuch; then again it is evident, That never had theſe need (that I read, or know) to make uſe of the Magiſtracy for their maintenance; at leaſt not ſuch a maintenance as is here diſputed. To the Scripture cited in the Query, I Anſwer; That the livelihood there meant, was the voluntary Contribution of Beleevers (as I have ſhewed before) and no forced maintenance, (as you would have it.) But it's apparent John Wickliffe (whom alſo I have formerly alleaged) was of quite another mind and judgement than you are: For thus he ſaith, [Art. 3. Complaint] Of which authority it is plain and open, That the things that be due to Prieſts, ſhould not be asked by Strength, by Violence, or by Curſing; but be given freely without Exaction or Conſtraining. And a little after; Alſo Chriſt with his Apoſtles lived moſt poor life as it is known by all the proceſs of the Gospel, Nothing Challenging by Exaction, nor Conſtraining; but lived p. 31ſimply and ſcarcely enough of Alms freely and wilfully given: Therefore they that pretend themſelves to be principal Followers of Chriſts ſteps, ſhould live and walk as Chriſt did, and ſo live full poor life, taking of things freely given, as much as need is. Doubtleſs you think it foul ſcorn, and much beneath your worth, to follow this wholeſome advice of Wickliffe, albeit it be grounded on, and exactly conform both to the Commands, and Examples of Chriſt, and all his Apoſtles.

section 40 T.L. Whether a Child may not run, when abuſed, for redreſs, to his Nurſing Father? Iſa. 49.23.

Anſw. Think ye that the Magiſtrate, is there called Nurſing Father, becauſe of his feeding the Miniſters of Chriſt, or others, with earthly food? And yet 'tis not long ſince, that ye called him Dry Nurſe; namely, when he diverted from your mouths (then gaping wide to receive it) his milk of Biſhops, and Dean and Chapters Lands.

section 41 T.L. Whether the Tenth part of the Increaſe be not by the Law as due to Miniſters, as the Nine parts remaining to the Poſſeſſor?

Anſw. Your Right to the Tenth of the Increaſe of Peoples Goods, is it not one and the ſame with the Right of the late Monopoliſts, which they had to their Penſions out of Pins, Soap, &c? For this did they beg of the Magiſtrate; and by what other way do you come by your Right to the Tenth of Increaſe? The People do buy their Lands, Sheep, &c. for money, at reaſonable Eſtimations; and that of the right and private Owner: Do you in like manner acquire your Right to the Tenth of Increaſe? The Title you get by Begging, what is it elſe but a Beggarly Right?

section 42 T. L. VVhether Miniſters, when all peaceable means; &c?

Anſw. VVhen ye ſhall have prov'd your ſelves to have as good Propriety in Tithes, as other men have in their Eſtates, we ſhall grant you then, That you may as juſtly appeal alſo to the Chriſtian Magiſtrate, for the obtaining thereof, as any other man for the procuring of his demands.

section 43 T. L. VVhether your decrying of trebble Damages, &c?

p. 32Anſw. It's well for the falſe Prophet, he hath the Beaſt to ride on: But tell us of that Magiſtrate that gave you trebble Damages, or other Mulcts, that ye now can lawfully ſue for in any Court that is extant? VVhat one Magiſtrate for you did, **i.e. Took away the Eccleſiaſtical Courts; wherein alone it was lawful to ſue for Tythes.another hath undone; as I formerly noted.

section 44 T.L. Whether it be not covetouſneſs, and no conſcience to refuſe to pay that, which is due, and unjuſtly to detain that which is neither yours, nor was your Fathers by Gift or Purchaſe?

Anſw. If any man there be that ſo doth, far be it from me to defend him. But what ſay ye to them, that bought All their Cloſes, Grounds, Tenements, &c. and this without all exception of the Tith, or any other part? You'l ſay perhaps, he did not buy the Tenth of the Corn, Hay, &c. Anſw. No more did he buy the ninth, ſeventh, ſixth, or other part, viz. in words expreſs: Is it lawful therupon for another to go to the Magiſtrate, & beg all theſe parts of the increaſe of my land; or could the Magiſtrate juſtifie ſuch a Gift? Although it may ſeem in this matter, ye count all Fiſh that comes to your Net. The Magiſtrate gives; Ergo, you may take, be it right or wrong, you paſs not for that Which is language more befitting Court-paraſites, and filching Monopoliſts, than ſuch as go under the name (a great way you are beneath it) of Miniſters of Chriſt.

section 45 T.L. Whether Ananias and Sapphira, Acts. 5.1,2. and thoſe mentioned Mal. 3.8,9. had not as great reaſon to pretend Conſcience, as thoſe that with-hold others due?

Anſw. 1. When you alſo in like manner can avenge your cauſe on them that with-hold your Tithes (ſo called) as Peter there puniſh'd the ſin of Ananias and Sapphira; men will lay the Tithes at your feet, and never ſtand out to a tryal with you.

Anſw. 2. We grant we are as well like Ananias and Sapphira, as you are like Peter.

Anſw. 3. If our Caſe be the ſame with Ananias and Sapphira's, your Right is then extended, not now to the tenth, but or the whole price of our Poſſeſſions: and ſo we ſhall bep. 33but as your Alms-men, or Tenants by courteſie, for the other Nine parts we keep.

section 46 T.L. If by Petitioning you mean the late Petition handed in this County; we ask, Whether that abominable Blaſphemer, Nayler, and his adherents, &c?

Anſw. It's notorious that thoſe your Petitions, embraced a far greater number, than Nayler and his adherents, who were not above ſix or ſeven (as I remember:) Yea, ſurely your Petitions were as large (at leaſt in aime and vote) as Hamans Decree, Eſther 3.13. namely, for deſtroying the whole Race of the Jews; as before I have noted. And if even they be blaſphemers, who ſay they are Jews, and are not, Rev. 2.9. then are not they abominable blaſphemers, who ſay they are Chriſts Miniſters and Embaſſadors, and are not, but are rather ſo many Chieftains in the Synagogue of Satan? Yet did we never Petition the Magiſtrate againſt you, nor wiſh you any evil; but rather deſire that with perſecuting, and blaſphemous Saul, ye may be converted, and your ſins forgiven. So fulfilling the Commands of Chriſt, who ſaith, Bleſs them that curſe you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that deſpightfully uſe you, and perſecute you.

section 47 T.L. Whether Miniſters, or your Selves, occaſioned the Tumults and incivilities (if there were any) at the time of your Meeting at Aiſh?

Anſw. If there were any! Why, what plainner Tumult could have been made; and what greater incivilities could have been committed, than were at the Meeting at Aiſh? Thruſting, puſhing, pulling, haling, renting of clothes; throwing of apples, dirt, ſticks: hooting, ſhouting, loud laughters, ſcoffing, jearing, &c. Do not, I ſay, all theſe amount to a Tumult? Any one of theſe things in your Meetings would be counted occaſion enough for a tumult. And when did this ſavage uproar begin? VVhen thoſe called Miniſters came to the Meeting. How, and with whom did they come? They came with a multitude of rude Fellows, having Corn-pikes, clubs, ſtaves, even in like manner, and with like company, and almoſt like armed, as Judas theirp. 34elder brother, came againſt Chriſt to betray him, Matth. 26.14,15.47. But I hear the Relation it ſelf is to be Printed; to which I refer the Reader.

section 48 T. L. VVhether your uſual courſe of coming into our Aſſemblies, and railing at, and reviling at Miniſters without the leaſt provocation, be not an occaſion of Tumults?

Anſw. It was not railing, nor reviling, when the true Prophets called the falſe Teachers, Preachers for hire; Diviners for money; Dumb dogs; Greedy dogs; Idol ſhepherds; Ravening VVolves, and the like. And what occaſion is it of Tumults (in a Chriſtian; yea, in a civil, or reaſonable Congregation) if theſe or the like names be now alſo given, to thoſe, to whom the ſame do no leſs truly belong; and that through the movings and impulſe of the ſame holy Spirit, as led the ſaid Prophets to do ſo before? But a very ſmall matter will put your Diſciples into a tumult, who never were in any good order: And a ſlight offence will them provoke, who are the children of wrath, and have fingers ever itching to ſhed bloud; the bloud of the innocent.

section 49 T.L. He quaeries, VVhether when the Scriptures ſpeak of the Saints being Perfect, they be not to be meant of the laſt day?

Anſw. Ye do prudently, Friends, to adjourn Perfection unto the very laſt day; as being conſcious to your own ſelves, The VVomb of your Miniſtry is too baſe and barren a thing, to bear and bring forth ſo goodly fruit. But if the Saints may be perfect on the laſt day, why not as well a day, a month, a year before? Your Caſe is even thus; You are convinced by a many plain Scripture, That the Saints are per…ect, (as anon I ſhall alſo prove) Now becauſe the Schollars of your School (with the Maſters and all) are at ſo great diſtance from perfection (though they be ever learning, 2 Tim. 3.7.) They have invented this Artifice to ſalve the matter; No man, ſay they, is perfect but when he's a dying, (as ſome) or till the laſt day (as others ſay.) And now do they think they have got a ſure ſhield, for to ward off all Aſſaults of them, who may charge them with ſin, and imperfection:p. 35perfection: But this ſhield is too narrow for their turn, as may appear by the Scriptures enſuing:

1 To be perfect is one of Gods Commandments, Matth. 5.48. And the Commandments of God are not grievous, 1 John 5:3: If not grievous, then not impoſſible; ſeeing even that which is grievous, is yet poſſible to be done: And he that keeps Gods Commandments (which may be done) the ſame is perfect.

2 Ye are my friends if ye do whatſoever I c…mmand …ou, Joh. 15 14: The Saints are Chriſts friends; and therefore do they whatſoever Chriſt commandeth them: and they that ſo do are perfect.

3 The Saints are Gods workmanſhip, Eph: 2:10: But the workmanſhip of God perfect, Deut: 32:9:

4 He that neither ſinneth, nor can ſin, is perfect: But ſuch are they that are born of God, 1 Joh: 3:9: 1 Joh: 5:18:

5 He (Chriſt) gave ſome Apoſtles, and ſome Prophets, and ſome Evangeliſts, &c. for the perfecting of the Saints, Eph: 4:12:13: Did not thoſe Apoſtles, Prophets, &c. attain the end for which they were given? Or elſe did their Miniſtery ſuſpend its operation and effect until the laſt day?

6 It's poſſible for the Saints to come unto a perfect man; to the meaſure of the ſtature of Chriſts fulneſs, Eph: 4:13,14: And they that be here, be ſurely perfect. Now that theſe things are all attainable in this life; and that alſo many years before the hour of death, is evident by what is immediately ſubjoyned, viz. That we henceforth be no more Children toſſed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of Doctrine by the ſlight of men, &c. It's ſaid [that henceforth] that is, From the time of their being a perfect man and of being come to the meaſure of the ſtature of Chriſts fulneſs; elſe, will the ſenſe be broken, jarring, and altogether incoherent. And ſurely all thoſe things that follow [Henceforth] do imply a much larger time, than the laſt day. Had Paul here been of the Querents mind, That perfection comes not till the laſt day, would he have ſaid, That henceforth; that is, That after the Saints be perfect, and be come to the meaſure of Chriſts ſtature, They p. 36be no more children toſſed too and fro &c. For what ſpace, time, or danger or poſſibility, could he then have conceived, of their being toſſed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine &c. This is, after the laſt day: on which day the querents ſuppoſes that the Saints are to be made perfect; and not before.

7. If any man offend not in word, the ſame is a perfect man Iam: 3:2: Now it's impoſſible that there ſhould be ſuch men, as Iames here deſcribeth. Or did he here only propoſe the Idaea or Patern of a perfect man, which never yet had, nor never was to have actuall being? This were rather to make him a Platonick Philoſopher, then one of Chriſts faithful Miniſters: and a nugatory ſpeculator rather, then a teacher of things to be done.

8. Now the God of peace—make you perfect in good works to do his will Heb: 13:20:21: If we be not made perfect till the laſt day, what ſpace of time then remaineth, wherein, after one is perfect, he may do the will of God. Think ye that this prayer regardeth only the laſt day? Was it needful to pray that believers might be made perfect in good works to do Gods will on the laſt day? Would you not have Gods will to be done before that day? See 2 Cor: 13.1. Finally brethren farewell; be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace &c: Are all theſe things not attainable before the laſt day? Or are ſome before; and ſome (or one) not till then?

9: Mark the perfect man, behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace Pſalm. 37:37. Do theſe words ſo ſound as if David held no man perfect untill the laſt day? Is not the peaceable end, here ſpoken of, the effect or concomitant of perfection? But if no man be perfect till the laſt day what ſenſe can be gathered from theſe words? What end is the perfect man to have at, or after the laſt day? And who is then to mark it?

10. Heb: 7.19: For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did &c: He doth not ſay ſhall; & that at the laſt day: Again Heb. 10.14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are ſanctified. They p. 37therefore that are ſanctified, are likewiſe Perfected: But men are ſanctified before the laſt day. Alſo Heb. 12.22.23. But ye are come unto Mount Sion &c. and to the ſpirits of juſt men made perfect &c. Now how could the Saints be then come to the ſpirits of juſt men made perfect, If it be true, that none be made perfect till the laſt day.

11. Let us therefore as many as be Prefect be thus minded Phil. 3.15. Now if neither Paul himſelfe, nor any other were at this time perfect, this exhortation were void of all ſenſe and reaſon: For if none were then perfect whom did he then exhort?

12. Howbeit we ſpeak Wiſdom among them that are perfect, 1. Cor. 2.6. Now if none can be perfect till the laſt day, then will it neceſſarily follow, that either Paul ſpake Wiſdom among them that were not perfect, or elſe among none at all. But both theſe are falſe. Objection: Paul himſelfe profeſſes that he was not made perfect Philip. 3.12.13. Anſ. The perfection there ſpoken of, is to be underſtood of a certain degree or meaſure of perfection, which Paul at that time had not attained unto; and not of perfection, ſimply conſidered: Otherwiſe this place ſhould contradict other both many & evident Scriptures; yet doth the ſame Paul ſay in the following words: But I follow after if that I may apprehend that for w^ch alſo I am apprehended of Chriſt: and in Verſ 14. He ſaith, I preſſe toward the mark &c. Now did he follow after, and preſſe towards this degree of perfection in faith, or not in faith? If in faith, then did he believe it poſſible to be attained unto. See more of this point hereafter.

13. Finally, the Scriptures give this teſtimony of Noah, Job, and others, that they were perfect men, Gen. 6.9. Job 1.8. and this was long time ago.

section 50 T. L. Whether can you rationally expect that our hearers ſhould be more perfect then the eleven Apoſtles. [Anſw. I grant indeed 'twere very abſurd to expect your Hearers ſhould be perfect while they are under ſuch imperfect p. 38Teachers.] Thoſe ſtars of the higheſt magnitude in the Church. [Anſw. And yet the Prieſts, Scribes, and Phariſees could not abide them, but ſought to pluck them out of their Firmament.] Whom yet Chriſt upbraideth with unbelief and hardneſſe of heart. [Anſw. There is a childhood in grace, they had not as yet received the Promiſe of the Father, which was the gift of the Spirit; neither were their underſtandings yet opened, &c. Ioh. 15 26. & 20.22. Luk. 24 45,49. Act. 2.1,2,3,4.

section 51 Ob. Eccleſ. 7.20. James 3.2. 1 Joh. 1.8. Anſw. I do not deny but he that is a Saint may commit ſin; but ye the that abideth in Chriſt ſinneth not: Reſiſt the Devil and he will flye; Here I demand whether it be poſſible to reſiſt the devil and all other temptations to ſin? If thou ſay it's poſſible at all times ſo to reſiſt; then it follows, That a Saint may forbear at all times from ſinning, and ſo never ſin: But if thou ſay its impoſſible ſo to reſiſt, and that he muſt needs give way to temptations, and ſo commit ſin, Then is this not to be counted a ſin which thus is not willingly committed, but as an enforced paſſion, and is of the ſame accompt with a Rape, which a woman may ſuffer without any guilt of ſin.

section 52 T.L. Whether, though none of our Hearers in this life either are, or can be free from the reliques and remainders of ſin, Ro. 7.23,24. yet whether many of them are not perfectly freed from the condemnation of ſin, Rom 8:1: & 33,34. yea, & ſo far from the dominion and power of ſin, Rom: 6:14: that though ſin be in them, yet they are not in ſin? but that we may comfortably believe that teſtimony of them which the Scripture gives of Iob, Iob 1:1. That they feare God and eſchew evil? And that notwithſtanding their human frailties and infirmities, yet nevertheleſſe their hearts, as the heart of Aſa was, are perfect all their dayes, 2. Chron. 15.17. ſo perfect as to be ſincere and upright?

Anſw. Concerning the righteouſneſſe and perfection of your Hearers; I Anſwer: That by their fruits they are known. And if they be not free from ſin, then not dead to ſin; and ſo under the Law and not under grace, Rom. 7.6: Rom. 6:18:22:

p. 39In Rom. 3:23,24: Paul declareth his warring eſtate, at which time he was carnal, ſold under ſin, verſe 14: brought into the captivity to the law of ſin, verſe 23: At which time he alſo cryeth out, Oh wretched man that I am, who ſhall deliver me from the body of this death! But the ſame Paul in other places doth witneſs a far different eſtate from this: for thus he ſaith, When we were in the fleſh, verſe 5: Ye are not in the fleſh, Rom. 8.9. For the law of the ſpirit of life in Chriſt Jeſus hath made me free from the law of ſin and death, Rom. 8:2: How can we that are dead to ſin, live any longer therein? Rom.And if Chriſt be in you the body is dead becauſe of ſin, Rom. 8.10. See alſo Rom. 7.6. From theſe, and many other places that might have been alleaged, it is moſt evident, That Paul in this ſeventh Chapter to the Romans, treateth of his warfare, & of the condition he then was in while yet he was not wholly dead to ſin, nor had yet obtained the victory over the carnal part; and ſo was not yet delivered from under the thunders and tempeſt of Sinai's condemnation.

section 53 T.L. Whether any of you received the myſtery of Chriſt by Revelation, the ſame way that Paul did, who received it by Chriſts ſpeaking to him in the Hebrew tongue: compare Eph. 3.3,4,5. with Acts 26.14.

Anſw. This ſeemeth to me a very ſilly quaere; as though the language in which God ſpeaketh, when he calls any one to the Miniſtery, or other ſervice, were of any conſideration or moment, as in reſpect to the validity of ſuch a Call, and authority thereby received: Let the Reader compare theſe two Scripturers (in the quaere) and he ſhall find the latter end of this queſtion yet worſe than the beginning.

section 54 T.L. Whether thoſe faithful men at Epheſus to whom Timothy committed thoſe things that he had heard of Paul, 2 Tim. 22. and 3.14. And whether thoſe Elders that were ordained in Creet, by Titus, whom Paul left there for that purpoſe, Tit. 1.5. might not be truly ſtiled Miniſters made by Jeſus Chriſt, i. e. by Chriſts appointment; though they were not Apoſtles, Prophets, or Evangeliſts?

p. 40Anſw. 1. To that of Timothy, I Anſwer; 1. They were to be faithful men. 2. It follows not, That this committing of things heard, &c unto them, did make and conſtitute ſuch men ipſo facto Chriſts Miniſters. 3. Timothy was able to judge who were fit and able, To teach others alſo. Did ſuch a man, or men, as Timothy was, give any of you commiſſion to teach others? Of this before.

Anſw. 2. Neither doubt I but Titus had good Authority to Ordain thoſe Elders, (ſo as the place importeth.) And had your Ordainers as good alſo, I ſhould as little doubt theirs too.

Anſw. 3. If your Ordainers had Ordained ſuch Miniſters as Paul there deſcribeth, and appoints to be Ordained, Tit. 1.6,7,8,9,10. I believe I ſhould readily own and embrace them: For ſuch had been blameleſs, ſober, juſt, holy, temperate, and not given to Filthy Lucre, &c. which are ſuch vertues and graces we cannot yet ſee in any of you, no, not though we ſtand never ſo near you: Whereas the contrary vices are ſo vigorous in you, that you yield a bad ſcent wherever you come; with them that have ſenſes incorrupt, to ſmell it.

Anſw. 4: And is it not rather to be ſaid, That this ordaining of Elders was not a conſtituting of Miniſters ſimply; but an aſſigning or appointing of them, that were ſuch before, to ſome new, and ſpecial, or particular charge, or ſervice? The word is as well, if not better engliſhed, Settle, Place: Alſo this ſence, the cohering words do favour; In every City; He ſaith not of ſuch or ſuch a place, or Church; nor yet Elders ſimply.

Finally, It's here to be remembred what kind of Ordination was in uſe in thoſe Primitive times; For this ſee Sect. 3.

section 55 T.L. Whether Chriſts promiſe, That he would be with his Apoſtles unto the end of the World, Matth 28.19,20. can be any otherwiſe made good then in his being preſent with ordinary Paſtors, that ſhould ſucceed in the Church to the end of the world?

Anſw. If the place be ſo to be underſtood as the Quaerent p. 41taketh it, then where were thoſe Paſtors and Succeſſors to the Apoſtles; and how was God with them for ſo many hundreds or years, even during all the time of Popiſh Apoſtacy, which began even in the Apoſtles age? But your main buſineſs is, to prove your ſelves to be true Paſtors of Chriſt; which ye never can do, ſo long as ye continue Hirelings (See Iohn 10.12.)

section 56 T.L. Whether ordinary Paſtors and Teachers are not as well ſaid to be given for the Work of the Miniſtry &c as well as Apoſtles, Prophets, Evangeliſts, Eph 4 11,12. and that till we all come to the meaſure of the ſtature of the fulneſs of Chriſt, verſ. 13. which is not, cannot be till the end of the world; compare Epheſ 4.11,12,13. with 1 Cor. 12.28.

Anſw. 1 I deny your diſtinction of Paſtors into ordinary and extraordinary (taking the word Paſtor as diſtinct from Apoſtle, &c) This is your caſe; ye are aſham'd to claim to your ſelves the name of Apoſtle or Paſtor in a Scripture ſenſe, which you ſeem to call extraordinary; This one name therefore ye craftily divide into two; that being driven from the poſſeſſion of the one (i. e. exttaordinary) ye may yet as a reſerve, have the other to flye to: imitating herein (after a ſort) thoſe Spirits, that being commanded to go out of the man, prayed they might have leave to paſs into the Swine.

Anſw. 2. Ye cannot away to hear of the Saints arrival to the meaſure of Chriſts ſtature: Why? Becauſe ye your ſelves are ſo ſhort thereof: Alſo well know ye in your ſelves, That as many as are come hither, or fair in the way thereto, be now tall enough to over-look all your deceits and failings.

Anſw. 3. I demand, Whether All the Saints ſhall come to this neaſure all at one time; that is, (as you ſay) at the end of the world? If ye ſay, Yea; then it ſeems (after your ſenſe) the Saints ſhall neither till then come to the unity of the Faith, or the knowledge of the Son of God: Foraſmuch as both theſe are coupled together with the other; which were very abſurd to affirm, (taking the end of the world in that ſenſe you take it) and openly contradictory to many other places of Scriptures. Whoſoever is truly in the Faith; is one with p. 42all others who are likewiſe in the ſame Faith. The Beleevers of old time were all of one heart, and of one ſoul (Acts 4.32) were not theſe come to the Unity of the Faith; & alſo in the way of attaining to the meaſure of Chriſts ſtature, &c.? The one Faith being in many, makes them all of one heart, mind, and conſent: We are one bread; fellow-members of the ſame body. See alſo, 1 John 1.7. Again, how can a man be a true Believer, that is not, in ſome meaſure, come to the knowledge of the Son of God? See Iohn 17.3. 1 Cor. 2.2. Phil 3.10 2 Theſ. 1.8. 1 John 2.3. & 2.13, &c. Now that all theſe things, namely, Unity of the Faith; Knowledge of the Son of God, and Coming to be a Perfect man, are referred to one and the ſame time, (i e. the time of this life) with coming to the meaſure of the ſtature of Chriſts fulneſs, is very plain, in that they are all alike joyned together in one form, and manner of ſpeech under the word [until.] See more of this in Section 49:6.

section 57 T L. Whether Magiſtrates are not truly ſtyled Miniſters of God, though ordained by men?

Anſw Magiſtrates indeed are Gods very Miniſters, but in Civil, not in a Spiritual accompt: And yet if the Magiſtrate, ſo well as ye now account him, ſhould once abandon your Function to voluntary Contribution, you would turne your Tale, I beleeve:

section 58 T:L. Whether thoſe that ſay none other things than thoſe which Moſes and the Prophets did ſay ſhould come, Acts 26.22. and that determine to know nothing; yea, to Preach nothing but Jeſus Chriſt and him Crucified, and that according to the Scriptures, may not be rightly ſtyled to ſpeak as the Oracles of God?

Anſw. They only are to be ſaid to ſpeak as the Oracles of God, who ſpeak by inſpiration or revelation of the holy Ghoſt; or elſe in the Light ſpeak thoſe things which themſelves have handled and taſted, both ſeaſonably and aptly for the edification, or benefit of the hearers: But they that are in the fleſh cannot pleaſe God, (Rom. 8 8.) whatever they ſay, or determine to know, or preach. And though ye mayp. 43uſe the words of Scripture, yet cannot ye thus be covered: the Tempter ſo did, and that cunningly too; and yet got he thereby no thank at all at Chriſts hands: No more do you neither by Preaching long Sermons compiled of words ſtoln in like manner out of the Scriptures, (and other Books)

T.L. That theſe are very vertues, &c. And yet we affirm, That, through Grace, ſome; yea, many of us, have attained to this, That even the piercing eye of malice it ſelf cannot ſee ſo far as juſtly to charge us.

Anſw. The eye of wiſdome then ſees farthet than the eye of malice; for this ſees you full of iniquities: Now the eye of malice is of your ſide, and therefore not ſo apt to charge you, how far ſoever it may ſee into your guiltineſs; yea even this piercing eye hath a mote in it ſelf, and therefore cannot ſee a beam in yours.

T.L. That our Gifts and Converſations are not, at leaſt, in a competent meaſure, ſuitable to that high Calling, whereunto we are called; However not unto us, not unto us, [you mean not here of Tythes, and Augmentations, &c.] but unto our God's name be the praiſe.

Anſw▪ Our Gifts — If ye were indeed wiſe, yet your Gifts would blind your eyes: Your Converſations, they are like a menſtruous garment, whereof is no part remaining clean, but is wholly defiled Your Calling is from the Serpent, and your Gifts and Converſations are ſuitable to it. But why is your Calling an high Calling; Becauſe it ſets you in the Pulpit on high? It's certain, were it not for Tythes and rich Livings, the moſt of your number would turn the deaf ear to this High Calling, and ſay they never heard ſound thereof. But how bountiful ye are to God! To his Name be the praiſe. A few empty words without any true ground. Go, offer unto God the firſtlings of your flock, and the fat thereof; until ye ſo do, the Lord will have no more reſpect to your Sacrifice, than he had unto his, who for envy ſlew his Brother; (a vice moſt truly yours)

section 60 T.L. Whether when the Obedience and ſatisfaction of Chriſt, our Surety, unto the Law and Juſtice of God, is byp. 44God the Father freely imputed to us, the righteouſneſs of the Law may not in the Apoſtles ſenſe (Rom 8.4.) be truly ſaid to be fulfilled in us, or by us, 2 Cor. 5 19,21.

Anſw. Here may the Reader take a taſte whereby to judge what kind of Interpreters ye are of the Scriptures; the which where they fit, not your purpoſe, or fanſie, ye ſtick not to wreſt, contract, extend, at the beck of each frivolous Opinion, juſt as if they were a Noſe of VVax But Paul hath ſufficiently declared what he means, when he ſaith, That the righteouſneſs of the law might be fulfilled in us [not out of us,] in that he adds immediately after, Who walk not after the fleſh, but after the Spirit; And they that ſo walk, do verily fulfil the righteouſneſs of the Law. By theſe words therefore he expreſſeth the mean, or way, wherein, or whereby ſuch righteouſneſs is fulfilled

section 61 T.L. VVhether thoſe that are ſaid, 1 Cor. 14. to ſpeak by immediate revelation were not extraordinary Officers, and ſuch as continued only for a time in the Church of God and its firſt planting, and are now ceaſed?

Anſw. VVhile the Churches did abide in the Truth and wayes of God, ſo long was God alſo with them; and they did feel the movings of his Spirit, and ſpake accordingly as of it they were moved: But when they began to forſake their firſt love, and to joyn with the whore and falſe Prophets, and to worſhip the Beaſt, then did God alſo juſtly with-draw himſelf from them; then did their Sun begin to ſet, and the ſhadows of Night enſued. Now heard they not the VVord of the Lord, nor the workings of his Spirit did they perceive, but became eſtranged thereunto. In theſe dayes did they make a Calf, and offered ſacrifice to the Idol, and rejoyced in the works of their own hands

section 62 T.L. VVhether thoſe extraordinary Officers were not ſtyled Prophets, Eph. 4 11. 1 Cor. 12.28.

Anſw. Though all in the Primitive Churches were not Prophets, yet was it lawful in thoſe true Churches (though forbidden in yours) for any man to Propheſie, without exception or reſtraint: For thus ſaith Paul, Ye may all propheſiep. 45one by one 1. Cor. 14.31. and in Verſ 1. he ſaith, Follow after Charity and deſire ſpirituall gifts, but rather that ye may propheſy: Alſo Verſ. 5. I would that ye ſpake with tongues, but rather that ye propheſy. Hence it is manifeſt that Paul permitted any one to propheſy: and not only ſo, but ſecondly, alſo exhorteth them all indifferently to deſire the gift of propheſy (not the office:) And, thirdly, He declares his willingneſs that they **Declaring himſelfe to be of the ſame mind with Moſes who deſired that all the Lords people were Prophets.all might propheſy, &c. Now in Verſ 3. he explaineth what he meaneth by propheſying, namely, A ſpeaking unto men to edification exhortation and comfort; and this by revelation of the ſpirit; as may be gathered of Verſ. 30 Let us now erect a compariſon, between the ſpeaking and order that were in the Churches of Chriſt of old time, and the ſpeaking and order (ſuch as it is) that are in your meetings at this day. 1. In thoſe it was lawful, and according to order, for All to ſpeak: In yours only for One to ſpeak. 2. In thoſe they did ſpeak by revelation of God: In yours they ſpeak by imagination of their own brain. 3. In thoſe they did ſpeak for edification, exhortation and comfort of others: In yours for Augmentation, Decimation, and benefit of themſelves.

section 63 T. L. Whether when the Apoſtle ſaith that all may propheſy, he doth yet ſuffer a woman to ſpeak in the Church &c

Anſ. Ioel (Chap. 2. Verſ 28) propheſyed, that (not their ſons only, but alſo) their daughters ſhould propheſy &c. Where? To whom? Doth not propheſying ſerve for them which believe? (1. Cor: 14 22) And if to one believer, ſuch propheteſſes might rightly propheſy; why not alſo to two, to three, or more? If in a place where theſe beleivers did or do not uſually meet; why not likewiſe in a-place where they uſually meet? If out of a houſe; why not as well in a houſe? To a Church in a houſe? Philemon, 2 Or ſay ye that the number and place do make and give being to the Church of God? Define unto us then, how many perſons be neceſſarily required to the making up of a Church? and alſo what place it behoveth to be, that with ſuch numberp. 46muſt concur, to the ſo making up of a Church

section 64 T. L. Whether he doth not alſo exclude private members from intruding on that great office of propheſying when he demands, Are all Teachers &c.

Anſ. What private members doth Paul exclude from propheſying, when ſpeaking to the Church he ſaith, Ye may all propheſy (1. Cor 14 31) Neither doth he only permitt (or rather declare it to be lawfull) that all may propheſy; but deſireth alſo that they all might have the gift of propheſy (Verſ. 5.) And finally exhorteth the whole Church indiſtinctly that they deſire the gift of propheſy; as is noted before. Agreeable to this mind of Paul was alſo that of Moſes; I would (ſaith he) that all the Lords people were Prophets, and that the Lord would put his ſpirit upon them, Numb. 11.29. Where alſo it is to be noted, that though Eldad and Medad had never been counted or acknowledg'd as Prophets, but were private members of the Iewiſh Church, yet did they propheſy, and that in the Camp; not waiting for the triall or approbation of man, nor for any Solmn Inveſtiture into the office of Prophets: It was ſufficient authority to them, to propheſy, that the ſpirit of the Lord reſted upon them (Verſ. 26.) Now Moſes when he heard thereof (yet not yet by what warrant they propheſied) what did he do? Verily he ſet not the rude multitude upon them to beat them, pull them, tear them, neither charged he the civil Officers to apprehend them, and carry them away for endleſſe Impriſonment: None of theſe things (I ſay) did Moſes; But ſaith he, Envieſt thou for my ſake? would God that all the Lords people were prophets &c.

Its plain therefore neither Paul nor Moſes to have been of your Teachers mind, (to forbid any to propheſy;) but as far diſtant from you herein (as in moſt other matters alſo) as namely becomes the true ſervants of God, with Satans Miniſters compared.

section 65 T. L. How can they i. e. how can they lawfully and as to God acceptably preach, except they be ſent? Rom. 10 15.

Anſ. Apply this place unto your ſelves. Ye Preach for p. 47hire, and Divine for money: ye are not the men that bring glad tidings: [who deny men may be perfect and free from ſin in this life;] that publiſh peace: [who bring along with ye the black Threats of war, and manifold miſeries againſt all that will not put into your mouthes] Neither do ye publiſh ſalvation, [but keep men ever learning, that never come to the knowledge of the truth, and the end of faith.] Underſtandeth not the Apoſtle in this place ſuch a Sending as his alſo was? who was not ſent of men, neither by men, but by Jeſus Chriſt. And though the operations of the ſpirit be divers, yet do they not all alike proceed from the ſpirit? Did not the ſame ſpirit that made heretofore Apoſtles, make Paſtors alſo? And dare you that call your ſelves Paſtors of Churches, pretend to have received ſuch office and quality immediately of the ſpirit? I have ſeldome known any of you ſo impudent. Wherefore your operation is not by the ſame God; neither is your gift by the ſame ſpirit, neither your Adminiſtration by the ſame Lord Jeſus, 1. Cor. 12.4.5 6. And if no man can ſay, that Jeſus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghoſt: How then do you talk whole hours of Jeſus, without the Holy Ghoſt? But if ye yet challenge to have the Holy Ghoſt, then make it to appeare, by ſhewing the fruits thereof; ſuch are love, joy, peace, long-ſuffering, gentleneſſe, goodneſſe, faith, meekneſſe, temperance; are theſe things in you, or ſo much as the very ſhadowes, or counterfits thereof? rather, bring you not forth ſuch fruits as be clean contrary to theſe? Let the ſpiritual man be judge.

section 66 T. L. Whether it be not uſuall in our Churches to give liberty to ſeverall Miniſters, to exerciſe their gifts and diſcharge their office ſucceſſively one by one decentlie and in order.

Anſ. Ye ſeem to have propounded this your practice and order, as having ſome reſemblance and agreement with the practiſe and order which Paul did adviſe to be obſerved in the Church at Cornith: But even in this point do ye greatly differ and ſwerve from the right patern, and fouly miſſe ofp. 48your mark: For 1. The men that you ſuffer to preach in your meeting houſes, they be ſuch as are known to have been ordained or approved for this office of preaching, by man. 2. Such Preachers, are Paſtors or Miniſters (falſly ſo called) of ſeveral Churches (ſo named) and not of one: 3. They firſt have the leaves of the Teacher of that Pariſh, where they are to preach. 4. They bring along their Sermons with them ready prepared; and ſo do but reherſe what before they had invented and compoſed. Now all theſe things, to omitt many other, were quite otherwiſe in the Churches of Chriſt of old time, where due order was obſerved. Will ye give liberty of ſpeech, or propheſying to any one in your Aſſemblies, that is not made Miniſter by, or according to man? That ſpeaketh forth that which God revealeth unto him? No; you appropriate the uſe of ſpeaking, as it were a Monopoly, to your ſelves alone you may ſpeak what you will, none may controule you, without danger of great harme and impriſonment.

section 67 T. L. Whether to be hated for this very cauſe, becauſe we profeſſe our ſelves Miniſters of the Goſpel, &c.

Anſ. We do not hate you becauſe you do profeſs your ſelves Miniſters of the Goſpel; nor yet at all: Although we do not doubt but ye are hated of the Lord, for this your Blaſphemy, &c. Rev. 2.9. Ye do indeed profeſs your ſelves to be Miniſters of the Goſpel, but oh how ſhort do ye come of approving your ſelves as ſuch, 2 Cor. 6.4.5.6 7.8.9.10 Where's your much patience? [while ye cannot endure to hear a man ſpeak in your Aſſemblies, though moved of the Lord thereunto:] Where your afflictions? [who cruelly vex, and perſecute others, even the Saints of the moſt high, doing you no harme at all] where your neceſſities and diſtreſses? [who live at eaſe in the fleſh, fareing dilitiouſly every day, and vie with the great men of the world, in gay apparel and ſumptuous buildings:] where your ſtripes and impriſonment? [do you not cauſe both theſe almoſt every week, to be infflicted on others, even the Innocent?] where the tumults ye ſuſtain; labours, watchings faſtings: wherep. 49the pureneſs, knowledge, long-ſuffering, kindneſs, Holy Ghoſt, love unfeigned, &c. Do you not both cauſe others to ſuffer the former, and of the later are not ye wholly voyd? Now then is it any way likely, or conſentaneous to any ſound reaſon, that ye who call your ſelves Miniſters of the Goſpel, and Succeſſors to Paul in this office, be ſuch as yee avouch your ſelves to be? ſeeing not onelyonly none of the things aforeſaid which Paul ſuſtained ye likewiſe ſuffer, but contrariwiſe by your means and malice ye do even cauſe the ſame things to be ſuffred of others, and that moſt wrongfully. Bluſh then and be aſhamed any longer to arrogate to your ſelves this name, when as ye do ſuffer none of all thoſe things that alwayes did accompany the ſame where it was truly owned.

section 68 T.L. Whether our calling to the Miniſtery be not that which doth provoke your ſpleen and bitterneſs againſt us.

Anſ. Your calling to the Miniſtery doth no whit provoke us, but your hypocriſie, but your deceit, your covetouſneſs, pride, gluttony, luxury, crueltie, and the reſt of your vices: Yet do not theſe neither ſo provoke us, as at any time to pull you, hale you, ſtock you, ſtone you, impriſon you, rifle your goods, &c. Neither ever did we ſo much as deſire that anie of theſe things might be done unto you, at leaſt not ſince the time we were called Quakers, our witneſs is on high.

69T.L. Whether many ſcores, and hundreds of Miniſters of the Goſpel (ſuch as are we) have not laid down their lives in the very flames for living godly in Chriſt Jeſus.

Anſ. What ſtout Martyrs your brethren have been in times of perſecution, is ſufficiently known to all Engliſh men whoſe ages do number fortie yeers or upwards; for in ſuch mens remembrance, for fear of the Biſhops Apparitors, or other ſmall trouble impending, they ſhipped themſelves by ſcores for another land as is alſo before touched But theſe things not ſo willingly do I remember, as well knowing that they who ſo fled away were of the verie beſt of your number

p. 50Thoſe you call Miniſters of the Goſpel in the Quaerie, were not ſuch as ye are, ſave in name of Religion and certain Tenets; but were (at leaſt in ſpirit and frame of minde) as far unlike you, as you are like them who ſo made them lay down their lives in the very Flames (as the Quaere hath it.) Do not you likewiſe perſecute men for living godly in Chriſt Jeſus, as theſe alſo did? Bluſh to deny it. Do not you and your diſciples yet far out-ſtrip in wrong and barbarous cruelty, all the generations of perſecutors that ever were of old time? Thoſe executed their malice (for the moſt part) by Proceſs at Law, with ſhew of Order and Civility; You or your learners (with your well liking at leaſt) doubt not to commit all manner of harm and ſavage crueltie not only without anie legall Proceſs, but without any Law it ſelf; yea, clean contrary to ††The Inſtrument of Gouernment.Law. You make them to ſuffer, by whom partly you reign: You make them poor, by whoſe means you are rich: You caſt them in priſon, by whoſe bonds and travels you injoy your liberty. I ſay theſe things have ye done partly in vote, and partly in fact, as is well known.

Tell us now ye that are yet alive, or ye that have gone before us, if ever like unkindneſs to this, ye have ſeen with your eyes, or heard by report of others?

section 70 T.L. VVhether you durſt appeal to the Tribunal of heaven, who are perſecutors in heart, word, deed; you or wee.

Anſ. O ſingular impudence! O boldneſs not to be matched! Provokeſt thou us to heavens Tribunal for tryall of ſuch a queſtion, as almoſt all (both men, women and children) on earth can judge and determine, and that without danger of erring? Does not almoſt everie citie, town and village in the Nation ring and reſound of ſcoffs, taunts, clamors againſt them that be called Quakers? Is there ever a Priſon in England in the which are not ſome of our friends detained? VVhat Judge is there? VVhat Juſtice that hath not had an hand in condemning of our friends to ſome kind of puniſhment? Many other things I here might recount, but I am even grown weary to mention them: And now to p. 51bring the matter home to your own doors; Is there anie one grievance or injurie that our friends do ſuffer, but it pointeth unto you as the cauſe thereof, and is to be charged on your account? And this may you not your ſelves deny, while ye dare not but confeſs of your manie and infinite accuſations, informations, ſubornations, teſtifications, abominations, countenancings, and abettings, &c. whereby all theſe wrongs and afflictions have befallen our friends: And if there be haplie any ſuch among you ſo far diſſenting from the reſt of their brethren, that have not yet ſtained themſelves with the guilt of any the things above remembred; yet likely it is that even theſe alſo have tacitely and in heart aſſented thereto, and approved the ſame: Or if there bee, who are even hitherto clear, yet I challenge you all to this, viz. To name me the man amongſt ye, that openly and of his own accord, hath rebuked and earneſtly teſtified againſt thoſe many open ſins and abuſes which their Hearers daily commit on thoſe that are called Quakers: Or that hath ſo qualified and diſpoſed them afore hand by ſound teaching, godlie inſtruction, and example of innocent life, that they be not now apt to commit or intend ſuch violence and fury? But why appeal ye to Heaven? Is it hence, becauſe that ye fear to refer your cauſe to the judgement of anie here on earth? But whatever it be, if ye ſo will appeal, I aſſure ye we dare to join with you herein; provided ye will interpoſe good Caution to meet us there: for this of your part do we verie much doubt, except ye mend your lives while ye be here on earth.

71But to what end haſt thou mentioned the Marian dayes in the following Quere? You are not much liker thoſe Martyrs in ſpirit and temper of mind (though you ſucceed them in name of religion and certain opinions) then the Popes are like Peter, whoſe Succeſſors they likewiſe pretend to be.

section 72 What godly men do we call Vipers, Serpents, children of the Devll, falſe deceivers? even ſuch perſons, as holy men have formerly branded with the ſelf-ſame names: And therefore p. 52ought you neither to call us Raylers for ſo uſeing theſe names; unleſſe you can prove that theſe alſo who ſo have done before us, were Railers too.

section 73 T. L. To run up and down ſtarke naked, as one of your Brethren at Exeter, and one of your Siſters at Westminiſter &c.

Anſ. I know not of any of our friends that ſo have done, as here is ſurmiſed: As for one of them, I am ſure he was diſown'd of our friends; and touching the other, whom you call our Siſter, I am verily perſwaded ſhee never was acknowledged as ſuch a one by our friends neither.

Note here Reader, that albeit ſo many evil eyes do ſo diligently watch for our haultings; yet the accuſer was fain (when he had objected one trifle done at Exeter) to go as far as Weſtminſter for a nother. Thus is the charge not only repelled, but turned even greatly to our commendation and praiſe.

section 74 T. L. "Whether thoſe that profeſſe ſuch Doctrines mentioned S. 3. 3. before, and are guilty of ſuch practices as are not to be once named amongſt us [Anſ. No? what think ye then, of Adam and Eve and of Iſaiah the Prophet? for all theſe did go naked; and that a far longer time, then thoſe above named are ſaid to have done: Is it long of your ſuper-excellent holyneſſe, and purity of mind, that ſuch things as were done in the ſtate of Innocency, & by the greateſt of Prophets, would yet annoy your eares, if they were but named amongſt you?] ("as we have them quoted in Fords Anſwer to Speed) will ſtand with that Innocency &c.

Anſ. Read Speeds reply to Fords Anſwer and thou ſhalt finde his refuge of lyes to be ſwept away: But what kinde of proofe is this? One of you invents a crime againſt us; then reports it to another, or prints it himſelf, and ever after this ſerves for Iudicial evidence, whenever you have occaſion to uſe it. And generally concerning ſuch accuſations and crimes, as were objected or witneſſed againſt our friends by any of the mercenary Teachers, this I ſay, and admoniſh, thatp. 53as their teſtimonies and authorities are not to be regarded, much leſſe believed; becauſe ſuch men are both our mortal Enemies, and alſo parties themſelves, in moſt the controverſies and conteſts wherein we are engaged. This Ford is the man, of whom when he lived in the Weſtern parts, this jeſt was carried about, viz. That he had ſtolen the Biſhops Lawn Sleeves, to make him boot-hoſe topps of; [then was he noted of pride.] I have alſo ſince heard of him, that he is a very troubleſom man to his Pariſhioners, in exacting of tythes: [here he is taxed of covetouſneſſe, and of crueltie.] Mark now Reader what kinde of men they be, that witneſſe againſt us. For thou maiſt gheſſe the Lyon by his paw, (as the ſaying is.)

section 75 T. L. Whether though all inordinate care concerning the things of this life be a ſin; yet all holy carefull duties to preſerve our lives be not our duty? Eph. 5.28. Gen. 30.30. 1. Tim. 5.28.

Anſw. Call ye theſe holy carefull Studies to preſerve your lives, namely, to begg of the Magiſtrate or Patron power to receive 100. or 200. l. per Annum, for preaching the divinations of your brain? To caſt men into priſon, and be but for 12d.? To begger your Neighbors (whom you ought to love better) with long and coſtly ſuits at the Law, and that upon falſe pretexts, (as is afore ſhewn:) To ††See I Benſons book hereof.diſtrain their goods and take much more then ye claim? To procure a ſupplement of Augmentations, though yee had a ſufficient, yea, many times a large maintenance before? to ſeek Annexation of another neighbor Benefice, to that you had before, if your friends ſhall but eſtimate it within a 100l. per annum; (though it happen many times to be more worth) which practiſe heretofore in the Epiſcopal Clergy, was even by the men of your own Sect, greivouſly cenſured and condemned: I ſay, are ſuch as theſe your holy careful Studies to preſerve your lives? What could the very Heathen have done more in point of ſelf-preſervation, then you have done? Even ſuch holy careful duties as theſe, were thoſe of Micah's Prieſts and Prophets, (ch. 3. Verſ. 11.) Iſaiah's alſop. 54& Ieremiah's, & finally Peter & Iudes falſe Teachers, murmurers & complainers, &c. did practice like holy careful Studies to preſerve their lives; Where at length may we find thoſe Belly-Gods (Phil. 3.19) if theſe be not they? where them that mind earthly things, if not here? Would it ſeem here, Reader, to have ought of the nature or likeneſſe of a Slander, to call ſuch men as theſe be, Hireling Shepherds, and ravening wolves and greedy Doggs, that never can have enough? And yet will they ſay they be reviled as oft as they be ſo called? As if it implied no inconvenience at all, to be counted true Miniſters of Chriſt, and at the ſame time to be the Devils Servants, in doing all manner of ſin? I ſay moreover, that they that are holy, do caſt their care on the Lord, who careth for them; and they that will ſave or preſerve their lives, ſhall loſe them.

section 76 T: L. Whether the penalty of not eating be not to be inflicted on thoſe that are Idlers in Gods Vineyard, and on ſuch of your partie as wander and labor not.

Anſw: The penalty of not eating partaineth to them all, whatſoever they be, who being whole and able of body, and ſpeciallie wanting food & rayment of their own, do yet think it matter of fowl diſgrace to them, to work in ſome honeſt calling, (though Paul and other Miniſters ſo have done;) but choſe rather to live after the manner of Drones, by devouring the fruits of others labors and coſt; like as did alſo their Predeceſſors, the falſe Prieſts and Prophets of old time, who did eat of the fat and cloth themſelves with the wool, not ſparing the flock, Ezek 34.3:

As concerning thoſe of our partie, name who they be that wander and labor not. Wnder indeed did the Saints and Miniſters of God in old times, and that very **Heb. 11.9Heb 11:9poorely arrayed; and not ſate they ſtill in a ††Wander indeed they might, & that long enough before they found it too.fat Benefice, in the glory of the world and the friendſhip thereof; as the Miniſters of Mammon in theſe times do. Of theſe things alſo elſewhere.

section 77 T. L. Whether there is no labor but that which is handy &c.

Anſw. With you it is ſome labor to invent and write yourp. 55Sermons, which after ye may recite to the people for money, or moneys-worth: a practice utterly unknown to the ancient Miniſters of the Goſpel; ſave what they had read in the old Teſtament, touching the falſe Prieſts and Prophets there reproved for this very cauſe

section 78 T. L. And whether hath not the mind its labor, and that even to defatigation.

Anſw. Think ye that Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus, with the reſt of Chriſts true Miniſters, went not ſo far in the labor and travell of the mind, as any of you? And yet for all this did they not omit, much leſſe did they ſcorn to labor with the body alſo, for ſuſtenance of the outward life, (as none of you ordinarily do.) Of this more at large elſewhere.

section 79 T. L. Whether Paul doth not judge labouring in the word and Doctrine to be labor, 1 Tim. 5.17. And our Saviour ſaith The Laborer is worthy of his hire.

Anſw. Though Paul did indeed ſo judge, as is ſuppoſed in this quere; yet letted not this, but that he uſed handy labor too, and that night and day, earneſtly preſſing and exciting, withall, other Miniſters to follow ſuch his example: For our Saviours ſaying (cited in the quere) it is plain, that he here, by alluding to (or alleadging) the caſe or right of a laborer in reſpect of his hire (as being a maſter notorious and of all men confeſſed,) inſinuates only the like equity and reaſonableneſs of his Apoſtles taking neceſſary ſupply of food and rayment of them they ſhould Miniſter to in the Goſpel: There being a certain portion and parity of reaſon between the one & the other in this behalf: And in no wiſe doth he mean or imply, that his Apoſtles ſhould or might lawfully be hired, (even as a laborer) to preach for money, or like reward; or that they might or would preach and teach for ſake of the ſame; for ſo ſhould he altogether croſs and oppugne, aſwell what himſelfe hath ſaid, (Iohn 10.) by way of noting and condemning the Hireling Sheepherd▪ as alſo the many and vehement teſtimonies born againſt this mercenary Teaching, by the holy Prophets p. 56and his own Apoſtles. But were the matter even ſo here as the Quere ſeemeth to take it; yet ought the laborer in ſuch caſe to require & take his hire of them who hire him, for whom and to whoſe benefit he laboreth; and not of others, who hire him not; who refuſe, reject, and deteſt, both his labor as vain and fruitleſs, and himſelfe as a counterfeit and deceiver. See alſo, §8.

section 81 T.L. Whether Miniſters are not to give attendance to reading, to meditate on thoſe things? And whether 'tis poſſible for them ſo to do, at leaſt, to give themſelves wholly to them, and yet follow handy labor? 1. Tim. 4.13.15.

Anſw. Both Paul that ſo adviſeth, and Timothy ſo adviſed did yet (notwithſtanding their many travels & offices pertaining to their Miniſtry, and the meet diſcharge thereof) work with labor and travel night and day, that they might not be chargable to any, &c. And this (beſide other cauſes) To make themſelves an enſample to others to follow them &c. (Miniſters not excepted) with this command alſo, or penalty rather, That if any would not work, neither ſhould he eat. Afterward they note ſuch as walk diſorderly, not working at all, whom they command and exhort by the Lord Jeſus Chriſt, that with quietneſſe they work and eat their own bread, 2. Theſſ. 3.7.8.9.10.11.12. By theſe things it doth appear, how much Paul and Timothy, whom yet you have avouched for your Patrons, do befriend your idle cauſe. See elſewhere.

section 82 T. L. Whether Paſtors and Teachers are not to waite on their office? and whether handy labor be not a means of diſtraction and hindrance to the laboring in the word and Doctrine, &c.

Anſw. Did not Paul, Sylvanus, Timotheus, and the reſt laudably waite on their office? yea; did they not better waite on their office then the beſt among you? And yet did they (this notwithſtanding) put their hands to labor, as is a foreſaid. Neither is ſuch handy labor more a diſtraction and hindrance, to Chriſts true Miniſters now, then it heretofore was. But and if I ſhould grant the thing to bep. 57ſo as the quere would have it; yet would it not ſtraightway follow to be lawful, that, to releive their neceſſities ariſing by their not working and waiting on their office, they may begg, or take a way other mens goods; eſpecially theirs, who make no part of their Flocks, to whom they ſowe no ſpiritual things, nor plow, nor threſh, nor any labor take, (except to do them miſchief, and harme.)

section 83 T. L—Though they had an extraordinary ſpirit to aſſiſt them &c.

Anſw. Are there more holy ſpirits then one, as this quere ſeems to imply? The Scripture ſaith, There is but one ſpirit, Eph. 4.4. And again, There are diverſities of gifts, but the ſame spirit, 1. Cor. 12.4. If ſo it be, what mean ye then by extraordinary spirit? Now ſeeing there is but one holy spirit; and this the Apoſtles had, let the Reader then judge what a ſpirit yours is, which is not the ſame which the Apoſtles had, but ſome other. Say ye that I wrong you by ſuch a Deduction? what elſe do your words import? If the Apoſtles had an Extraordinary ſpirit, and you have not this extraordinary ſpirit; then have you not the ſame ſpirit as they had, but either another; or none at all: But if ye Retract, and affirme, that ye have the ſame ſpirit indeed, as the Apoſtles had alſo, but not in that extraordinary meaſure, as they had it: Mine Anſwer then is; ſhew it by the fruits proper unto it, Gal. 5.22. Alſo I ask, if your ſpirit be fallible, or infallible? If fallible, then not Gods ſpirit, If infallible, How cometh it then to paſſe that ye can neither preach, talk nor write without ſo many Errors, and contrad…ctions both unto your own ſelves, and to others, like ſpirit with you, both having and pretending? Doth this your ſpirit guide and inſtruct you what to preach? what need then of inventing and penning your Sermons thus aforehand? Doth the ſame ſpirit ever move and direct you to go to ſuch a place, or people? Whence is it then, that it moves you never to beſtow your Miniſtery upon a leane-Beneficed Pariſh, if a fatter may bee obtained? whence, that it ſtirreth you to change Pariſhes ſo often, and ſtil for earthly advantage? Now tell us whichp. 58of the very meaneſt of Chriſts true Miniſters of old, did ever do any of theſe things: Of the contrary part, how many of your number, even the beſt and greateſt of them, theſe things have not done, and yet do? (unleſſe perhaps as to ſome or one of them there lacketh opportunity or faculty, or other requiſites for atchieving thereof:) Now by theſe notes and arguments, (though there be many more added) it is no hard thing to determine what ſpirit it is you are guided by; and what is the god that ruleth in you ye ſons of diſobedience

section 84 T. L.—Yet thought it reaſonable on this very account, not to ſerve Fables, that ſo they might wholy and continually give up themſelves to the Miniſtery, &c.

Anſw. The Apoſtles (ſaith the Quere) thought it reaſonable for Miniſters of the Goſpel, not to ſerve at Tables; I grant that they might refuſe to do it.

The ſame Apoſtles command & exhort the Miniſters of the Goſpel, to work with their hands; are they not here alſo to be heard and obeyed? But the queriſt was ſomewhat over-bold in this place, to ſet the Apoſtles againſt the Apoſtles; to oppoſe one authority againſt another: To the reaſon of the Quere, I ſay, that there is not the ſame Anal…gy or likeneſs of reaſon in both the caſes: For where they command to work, they command even that which pertayneth to the ſuſtentation of life; to the honor of the Miniſtery, and Goſpel, by making it not **2 Theſs. 3.8. 1 Theſ. 2.9.2 Thess 3:81 Thess 2:9chargeable to others. And laſtly, charity and beneficence; ſeeing that by thus laboring, they may be enabled not only to ſupply their own neceſſities but **Acts 22.24.Acts 22:24others alſo, that be in want Now in the matter of waiting at Tables, none of theſe reaſons do hold place (at leaſt, not in equal bredth) nor yet any other having parallel moment, and neceſſity with theſe. So it will not follow, that becauſe one of them may be diſpenſed withall, as to the Goſpel Miniſters, for to avoid diſtraction and hinderance; therefore the other may be alſo, for the ſelfe-ſame cauſe.

p. 59section 85 Object. It was neceſſarie in the firſt Plantation of the Goſpel, that the Paſtors ſhould work, becauſe that the Churches then were poor, and under perſecution; but ſo it is not now.

Anſ: This reaſon is nowhere alledged in the Scripture, where at anie time it is intreated or mention made of ſuch working but other and diverſe reaſons, as both before is, and hereafter ſhall be declared

section 86 T.L. VVhether theſe words, Freely ye have received, freel… give, Mat. 10.8,9. are not to be limited to miraculous Cures, and onelyonly to that extraordinarie time of firſt planting the Goſpel?

Anſ 1. The Scriptures do make no ſuch limitation of freely giving unto miraculous cures; nor do they confine this free or gratuitous Miniſterie unto anie time at all.

Anſw. 2. Theſe words viz Freely ye have received, freely give, do relate to the Apoſtles whole Miniſtery; and preaching was a part thereof. Now they had a like freely received the gift of preaching, as that of doing Miracles; and therefore were here commanded, to Adminiſter both a like freely. And to heal gratis (like good Phyſicians) and not Preach for money like bad Miniſters: Briefly thus; whatſoever thoſe Miniſters of Chriſt (as ſuch) had freely received of Chriſt, the ſame were they alſo to give to others freely: The gift of Preaching, as well as that of Miracles, they had freely received: Therefore &c.

Anſ. 3. The reaſon of the gratuity or freeneſſe of this their Miniſtery, was perpetual, and diſcharged of all reſpect to time or place &c. For that, that Chriſts true Miniſtery always both was, and is freely received (without money and without price:) Therefore is it alſo, and that according to Chriſts own mind and reaſon, freely to be executed, (without limitation of time) With the like probability of reaſon, (and ſame meaſure of impudence) may ye alſo except, and ſay: We are not now bound to follow that Precept of Chriſt, viz. Learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart: Becauſe (might ye ſay) this was commanded at the firſt planting ofp. 60the Chriſtian faith, when yet the embracers thereof were poore and perſecuted; at which time it became them indeed to be meek and lowly; but now the times are changed: Nay; may you not by the like way of reaſoning, or cavilling, rather ſubvert and vacuate the whole body of precepts, and directions contained in the Scriptures? And ſo make them like an Inſtrument without any ſtrings, ſave what your own ends and conveniences are pleaſed to give it to ſound by.

section 87 T. L. Whether in this Text our Saviour doth not only moderate the affection, and prohibit a mercenary affection and greedy appetite of gain; and in the meane time permit to eat and drink and take ſupply of neceſſaries where they preach?

Anſw. Y…, he doth ſo: But permitteth them not with all to take from men, meat and drink perforce: Nor yet to begg other mens goods of the Magiſtrate; neither to ſue at Law, caſt into priſon, diſtrain &c. (as your practice is:) Neither doth Chriſt in Luk. 22.35.36. (cited in the following quere) give his Diſciples authority to make proviſion for themſelves, out of other mens money or goods; but out of their own only.

section 88 T. L. Whether requiring that which is legally our own, may be juſtly ſtyled a coveting of other mens gold or ſilver?

Anſw. 1. Prove it to be legally your own.

2. Prove that it is lawful for Miniſters of the Goſpel, to begg, and receive of the Magiſrate, a power to take other mens goods againſt their wills, or indeed any other maintenance.

3. The Magiſtrate hath no propriety in the goods of his Subjects; but a meere truſt only, and that of well diſpoſing them for the Subjects good and benefit, ſo as right reaſon doth require: Now it is plainly againſt both theſe, that the Subjects, (many of them being poore themſelves, and needy,) be conſtrained to contribute for maintaining others unto all points of luxury and exceſſe: eſpecially being ſuch p. 61as cannot plainly demonſtrate, that their Profeſſion or Miniſtery do bring any good or benefit to the Commonwealth or people; (but rather the contrary may be ſhewn:) Seeing withall if they could ſo do, yet ſuch over large contributions and allowances for bodily ſuſtenance, would diſpoſe them to ſundry vices; and ſo alſo leſſen and deſtroy the hope and benefit of ſuch their labors.

4. You covet Tythes, Glebes, Augmentations &c. before they are yourss Therefore you covet that which is anothers: (for certainly theſe belong to ſome body, before they be given you; elſe alſo the giver gives you that which was none of his to give)

5. You covet all theſe things without purpoſe of rendering for, or in lieu of them, any price or compenſation of equal value; nay, or any value at all.

6. You covet more then is requiſite unto neceſſary food and rayment, and the reſt uſes of life; which you ought not to do: ſeeing ye both begg, and receive theſe things, as meere Almes or charitable reliefe.

section 89 T. L. Whether all the Apoſtes did follow handy labor, or rather were not maintened by the Churches, among whom they labored?

Anſw. I have ſhewed before that Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheus (ſo Barnabas alſo) did not only uſe handy labor themſelves, but commanded and exhorted other Paſtors and Elders alſo, to do likewiſe; and that in moſt vehement ſort. And though true it be, that Paul had power, as he ſaith, to forbear working, and to give all his time to the Miniſtery; yet did he chuſe working rather; as preferring it before not working. And this he did (as one cauſe thereof) to propoſe himſelfe an example to others. By like he did even then foreſee, that in after times there would creep in (by fair words, and the Magiſtrates power,) ſuch Teachers into the Churches, and obtruders; (or that ſuch men ſhould pretend to be miniſters of the Goſpel,) as ſhould have hearts exerciſed with covetous practices, and who would take upon them this office chiefly for gifts and rewards: p. 62And therefore againſt this ſort of men, it ſeemeth, he thought it meet and neceſſary to fence, and ſhut up the office of the Miniſterie, by injoyning thereunto, and as it were annexing handy labour, well knowing, that now very few would be forward to undertake this office, (to which no outward priviledges were annexed) but ſuch as ſhould be moved thereunto of zeal and good will: And indeed this is one good Criterion, by which the falſe Teachers may be known and diſtinguiſh'd from the true

section 90 T. L. Whether Paul did not yeeld up his right, and wrought with his hands on extraordinary occaſions, viz. to avoid the ſhew of covetouſneſs; to eaſe the poor and diſtreſſed Churches; and by his example to win authority to his command, concerning labour.

Anſ. If Paul did well to uſe handy labour for theſe ends and reaſons, Why is it then that none of your Tribe do think him a pattern worthy their imitation herein? Now Paul's ends and reaſons for uſing bodilie labour, we ſhall here collect, and rank together.

1. That he might have to ſuſtain his life, and ſupply the wants thereof: Here was he led by neceſſitie of nature.

2. That he might not be chargeable unto others: Here he diſcovers his Nobleneſſe of mind, and Chriſtian amplitude.

3. That he might make the Goſpel without charge: Herein did his wiſdome appear; ſince to have over-burthened ſuch as entertained him, might probably have frayed them (and others) from imbracing the Chriſtian Religion, and have brought them into miſliking and weariſomneſs towards the Planters thereof.

4. That he might make himſelf an example unto others: Here was his Fatherlie care, and the propertie of a good Overſeer and Planter of the Goſpel.

5. Becauſe as he had freely received his Miniſterie, ſo he might alſo freelie give the exerciſe and benefit thereof; here is his juſtice ſeen: He would not again ſell for money or price, that which himſelf had freely received.

6. Becauſe it was more bleſſed to give, than to receive:p. 63Here was the happineſſe of his choiſe; with Mary, he choſe the better part: Are not theſe ends, reaſons, and motives all, both for nature, full of weight and worth, and alſo for durance of time perpetual? Do they not alike obtain, and hold in all times and places indifferentlie? Are they any part of the old Law? Are they typical, and ſo out of force and uſe with Chriſtians?

section 91 T. L. Whether the main grounds of Paul's forbearing to receive maintenance from the Corinthians and Theſſalonians, were not fear of giving offence to the one, that were very proud, and of burthening the other, that were very poor?

Anſ. 1. Thoſe were neither the only, nor yet the main grounds of Paul…s forbearing to receive maintenance of the Corinthians, or Theſſalonians, as the Reader may eaſilie perceive, by reading the places themſelves, where mention is made of Paul's working, and forbearing to take maintenance, viz. 2 Cor 11.7,8,9 1 Theſ. 4 11,12,13. 2 Theſ. 3.7,8,9,10,11,12. In theſe two laſt places, the Reader ſhall find other ends and inducements for Paul's and others working, beſides theſe here ſurmized in the Query, viz. 1. That we might not be chargeable to any of you (which yet doth not neceſſarily imply them to have been proud or poor.) 2. To make our ſelves an enſample to you to follow us. 3. For we hear there are ſome among you that walk diſorderly, not working at all (not working at all was diſorderly walking) 4. And to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, that ye may walk honeſtly towards them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Anſ. 2. But what do you ſay to the Elders and Paſtors of the Church at Epheſus, mentioned Act. 20.17. Were they alſo with their Churches, poor, or proud? And yet even unto theſe did Paul in ſad and ſolemn manner commend his example of handy working, not doubting to tell them, that ſo labouring they ought to ſupport the weak, finally enforcing ſuch their duty, and his advice, with the unqueſtionable authority of the Lord Jeſus, who ſaid, It is more bleſſed to give, than to receive.

p. 64Anſ. 3. There are the ſame ends, reaſons, and motives, why Miniſters of the Goſpel ſhould now alſo work for their livings, (if not otherwiſe hindered and with-held therefrom by their travels, and other imployments to which they be called and commanded of the Lord) as in the Primitive times, (ſo called) if not far greater; for there be now as proud, and as poor, as were then, for ought appears to the contrary: Certainly in this one thing at leaſt, do the times that now are, even far exceed thoſe in which the Apoſtles lived; namely, in diſputes, controverſies, objections, and criminations moved about, and grounded upon the idleneſs and avarice of them who are called Chriſts Miniſters; and therefore were there no other reaſon but this, this alone were enough (if they more regard had to their own authority, or the honour and ſucceſs of their Miniſtery, than to luxury of food and rayment, and other carnal reſpects) to drive them to cut off ſuch occaſion, as afore is ſaid, by working with their hands, and abſtaining from taking even voluntary contribution; abundantly more ought they (for the cauſe above-ſaid) forbear to ſue at Law, to diſtrain, to impriſon for treble damages, &c. under pretext of a competent maintenance; and all theſe things do they practiſe many times againſt theſe, for whom they never ſowed, plowed, threſhed, or planted a vineyard, being ſuch as do reject and diſown them, and never did or could profit by them; yea, not rarely, even ſuch as live many miles diſtant from them, whoſe very faces they have never ſeen.

section 92 T. L. Whether it hath not alvvayes been the cognizance of falſe Apoſtles to pretend to teach freely, only to diſgrace true Paſtors?

Anſ. This cognizance had not the Prieſts and Prophets, againſt vvhom the Prophet Micah cryed, Mic. 3.11. and againſt vvhom Jerem…ah, and Iſaiah in ſo many places do thunder; and yet notvvithſtanding they vvere falſe teachers. Alſo Judas Iſcariot, and Demas, together vvith Jude's falſe teachers, not only have not this cognizance given them, but even ſuch brand, deſcription and character, as they hold p. 65in common vvith all you Pariſh Teachers; as face anſvvers face in a glaſs, ſo you and they in every point agree.

Were all the Prophets of old time falſe Prophets? and for ſuch to be diſcerned by the foreſaid cognizance; namely, becauſe they preached and propheſied freely? (without money, and without price.)

Were Paul, Silvanus, Timotheus, and the reſt of Chriſts true Miniſters, falſe Apoſtles, and for ſuch to be known, becauſe they wrought with their hands, that they might not be chargeable to others, and ſo make the Goſpel without burthen?

But who ſeeth not how vain and ſenſleſs a thing it were for falſe Apoſtles to pretend to teach freely, only to diſgrace true Paſtors? Seeing they alſo that are, (or were) true Paſtors, do likewiſe (and ever did) preach freely. Why do not you alſo make uſe of this ſtratagem to bring thoſe you call falſe Apoſtles into diſgrace? queſtionleſs it would prove a matter of no ſmall advantage to your Miniſtery; but no reſpect ſwayes ſo much with you, as love of fleſhly pleaſure.

section 93 T. L. Whether Paul did not reckon his labours among his ſufferings and afflictions? 2 Cor. 6 5.

Anſ. Let the Reader conſider the coherent words and circumſtance of the place, and he ſhall find that the word labour there is to be taken for grief or pain of body or mind, which a man is compelled to ſuffer againſt his own will or choiſe; and ſo will the Greek word alſo very well bear to be taken, and not for a voluntary working, which a man of his own choiſe uſeth to get his livelihood by: And yet if it were to be taken in the Querents ſenſe, verily Paul, and thoſe who (with him) were true Miniſters of God, did by this and other ſufferings approve themſelves as ſuch, 2 Cor 6.4,5,6,7,8. A proof, which rather then the Pariſh Teachers will yeeld of their Miniſtery, they will turn (moſt of them) once every year, if the change of the Beaſt ſhall ſo require; they can (if need be) be Papiſts one year, and the next year Proteteſtants, a third Presbyterians, Independents the fourth; like white wooll, they can take any colour for worldly advantage ſake.

p. 66But I have formerly ſhewn, that Paul's handy labouring proceeded of his own choiſe and acord, and that for very weighty ends and purpoſes.

section 94 T. L. Whether Chriſt in Matth. 23 6,7,8. condemneth all theſe external actions there mentioned, or the pride and hypocriſie which the Phariſees manifeſted in them. &c Whether can you fix this charge on us, and prove it againſt us?

Anſ. If you alſo (as the Phariſees did) do love the uppermoſt rooms at feaſts, the chief ſeats in the Synagogues (or meeting houſes) greetings in the Market, and to be called of men Maſter, then are you liable to the ſame reproof, as the Phariſees alſo were: But now it is manifeſt that you love all theſe things, why elſe do ye take them? ſome of them alwayes, and the reſt moſt often; and certainly ſuch be very ignorant of the temper of your hearts, as cannot perſwade themſelves you would be ſore diſpleaſed, if you ſhould not be led to the higheſt ſeats at a feaſt, or ſome other ſhould poſſeſs your Pulpits, without your licenſe firſt obtained, or if men ſhould forbear, though out of conſcience, to ſalute you in the Market, or elſewhere; or ſhould call you by your names, omitting the title Maſter, is it credible, that your Pariſhioners and others would be ſo diligent and regardful (as they are) to ſalute you, to call you Maſter, &c. were they not perſwaded you both loved, and looked for theſe things at their hands? (they do forbear to uſe them to ſuch as they know do not love them) or that ye your ſelves, if ye loved them not, would ſo kindly accept them being given, and that with ſuch elaborate ſignifications of your thankfulneſs, and being well pleaſed therewith? What ſay ye to this, that many of your Coat have been known to be grievouſly offended, even to rage and evil ſpeaking, when as they have been denied the honor of any of the things aboveſaid? It's clear then beyond all chance of a doubt, that men love that thing, and expect it too, which being performed to them, they make much ſhew of thankful acceptance: and again, if the ſame be withheld from them, they are of the contrary, much diſpleaſed, and all of a rage.

p. 67section 95 T. L. Whether it be not as unlawful to call any man Father, as Maſter, Mat. 23.7.9. and yet is not the word Father own'd in the Scripture, Eph 6 1,2. yea, and Maſter too, Eph 6.5. Col. 4.1.

Anſ. I do not deny it to be lawful for a Son to call him that is his Father, Father; or for a ſervant to call him that is Maſter, Maſter; but if a man call him Father, who is not his Father, or him Maſter, who is not his Maſter, do they not both hereby ſay that which is in effect an untruth?

Again, when a man entreateth of thoſe duties (or otherwiſe diſcourſeth of things) that belong to perſons, as they ſtand under ſuch or ſuch relations, he is here by neceſſity driven to uſe ſuch names or terms of relation, ſuch as are Maſter, ſervant, Father, Son, &c. ſo that ſuch uſurpation of relative names, which very neceſſity conſtraineth unto, giveth men no warrant at all to aſſume or require ſuch names between themſelves in ordinary communication and talk, eſpecially when ſuch names are immediately given or taken; as namely, if Peter talking with Paul, ſhould have called him Maſter Paul; a dialect and calling unread of in the later Scriptures, except as it relateth unto Chriſt. Theſe are the words of a man of great name; Lud. Vives. Com. in lib. 8. c. 17. Aug. de l. Dei.Chriſt forbids his Apoſtles to aſſume the name of Maſter, to ſit high at tables, or love ſalutes in the ſtreets, and commands that the chief ſhould be but as a Miniſter; for honor aroſe with heatheniſme, and ſhould fall therewith, and not ſurvive in the Church, &c.

section 96 T. L. Whether Miniſters may as lawfully be called Maſters, as Teachers, Eph. 4.11. Overſeers, Act. 20.28. Rulers, 1 Tim. 5.17. Embaſſadors. 2 Cor 5.20. Maſters of the Aſſemblies, a wiſe Maſter-builder?

Anſ. 1. It's a kinde of incongruity in ſpeech, to call him Maſter, who is their Miniſter, that is, ſervant: This concerneth your reſpective Pariſhioners, whoſe Miniſters you ſay you are.

Anſ. 2. To theſe holy, wiſe, and ſpiritual Miniſters, theſe names and appellations did indeed belong: But what is this to your Fraternity? Thoſe you ſaid a little before, were aſſiſted with an extraordinary ſpirit, which was indeed the veryp. 68ground and foundation that verified all theſe denominations and titles, above recounted, yet notwithſtanding was it not uſual for Paul, or other Apoſtles, to whom yet theſe titles truly agreed, to be called in familiar conference, Teacher Paul, Overſeer Paul, Ambaſſador Paul, &c. wherefore theſe things make nothing at all to your juſtification, who require to be called Maſter John, or Maſter Thomas, even in common ſpeech.

section 97 T. L. Did not Paul exhort his hearers to be perfect? and would not he have bluſhed to have affirmed himſelf to have been perfect? Phil. 3.12 13. Was Paul therefore like the Scribes and Phariſees, that ſaid, but did not?

Anſ. This even the blind Papiſts could ſee and acknowledge. Eng. Col. at themes Annot. on Phil. 3.12.Phil 3:12There was a meaſure or degree of perfection, which Paul was not then come to, toward which he yet preſſed, &c. yet this letteth not, but that he was even then alſo perfect, that is to ſay, in a lower degree: And thus much in effect he bluſheth not to imply a little after, ſaying, Let us therefore as many as are perfect, bee thus minded. See more of this before touching perfection.

Neither ought we at all times, in the things of God, to be confined to the notions and definitions of men, but may warrantably ſo underſtand, and uſe the Scripture words, as we finde the ſame words before to be taken, and uſed in the Scriptures themſelves. And thus it appeareth that Paul was clear of this Phariſaical vice, and inconſtancy; it remaines now for you likewiſe to purge your ſelves of the ſame, if you can.

section 98 T. L. Whether there may not be a lawful reſpect of orders and degrees among men, without ſuch a reſpect of perſons as is condemned by James, &c.?

Anſ. We blame you not for the very doing of any act of kindneſs, love, humanity, nor yet for any modeſt and comely ſignification given thereof; but for this do we reprove you, and juſtly, namely, becauſe ye make ſo great ſignification of reſpect to the rich, as bowing, flattering, complementing, ſtanding uncovered, &c. whiles ye deſpiſe the poor, howſoever rich in faith, becauſe ye give flattering lying titlesp. 69to the Great ones of the World; as Worſhipful, Honorable, Excellent, &c. Contemning in the mean time thoſe of low degree. In ſum, your fault is this, That ye make not the Image of God, nor any true worth or vertue (moſt commonly) the Cauſe and Meaſure of that reſpect and honor ye do unto men (whether in word or deed) but meerly thoſe things that periſh and decay: Which while ye do, ye honor the Creature more than the Creator: which is Idolatry.

section 99 Concerning Pauls calling of Feſtus Noble; It may thus be Anſwered, namely, That this word proceeded from him upon an urgent and preſent occaſion, and that as a due teſtimony and grateful acknowledgment yielded to the juſtice, moderation, and fair behaviour of the man; ſhewed, namely in that his Controverſie (then depending before him) with Tertullus the High Prieſts Orator, Acts 25. The ſame Paul alſo call'd Agrippa, King: being a title or name of Office (as well as of Dignity and degree) and which truly did agree to him as a modeſt confeſſion thereof, and not in a way of flattery.

Now the things that we reprehend in this kind, are, 1. The giving ſuch honorable titles and nominal additions to men to whom they be not truly competible: And this is a Lye. 2. The giving or uſing theſe ſame in ordinary ſpeech, whether with the men themſelves, or of them: And this is Flattery.

section 100 Neither is it in any wiſe incongruous to our manners or judgment, To call, affirm, or confeſſe to be Kings, Lords, Noble, Excellent, them whom we know or judge to be ſuch: But we may not ſo do, when the title, teſtimony, ſtile, &c. do lack foundation of truth: Neither yet can we uſe theſe words in a way of Flattery, without all neceſſity, or occaſion leading thereto; ſo as if the name of the man had eſpouſed ſuch title or addition, and with it were inſeparably conjoyned.

But how came it to paſſe, thou couldſt find no titles of honor given to the Saints, as ſuch? The Scriptures call them Kings, Prieſts, Sons of God, joynt-heirs with Chriſt, &c.p. 70And all theſe things are moſt truly and excellency ſaid of them; yet notwithſtanding it would be ridiculous to call a Saint in ordinary talk, King John, Prieſt John, Son of God John, &c. or after this manner to ſtile or write them in Letters, Charters, &c.

They who expect or require from others titles of honor and ſuperiority, do plainly bewray a proud and Antichriſtian ſpirit: And Chriſt himſelf hath openly forbidden ſuch affection; ſaying, Matth. 23.10,11. Neither be called Maſters, for one is your Maſter, even Chriſt: But he that is greateſt among you ſhall be your Servant; and whoſoever ſhall exalt himſelf ſhall be abaſed. Now if it be unlawful to Chriſtian men to affect any greatneſſe or exhaltation above their Brethren, it can be no leſſe unlawful to affect or expect the names or words by which ſuch greatneſſe or exaltation is ſignified and confeſſed.

And is it not of equal vice and unlawfulneſſe to affect or aſſume the title of Maſter on a Civil account, as upon a Religious? Seeing the reaſon or ground that makes the former unlawful, is equally found in the latter: namely, Haughtineſſe of mind, and love of pre-eminence.

But how fully and cleerly doth Chriſt determine this Controverſie, and put the matter quite out of doubt, when he ſaith, How can ye believe, that receive honor one of another, and ſeek not the honor which cometh of God only? Joh. 5.4.

section 101 There were in the times of Chriſts Apoſtles they who ruled well, and who vvere in honour rightly preferred before others; and this yet vvithout being called, or expecting to be called Maſter, Lord, &c. at leaſt in familiar converſe.