The New Query and Determination Upon It, Section 17
SECT. XVII. The Objection of in efficacie for holineſſe of life in ſuch as live under the Preſbytery anſwered.
THe ſecond particular he produceth, in Mr. Prinnes name, againſt the Presbytery is, *M. Salim. in his opening of … the Vindication. p. 23. 24. and in the Vindication it ſelf. p. 57.the want of efficacie in it, where it is eſtabliſhed; which he exemplifieth by inſtances in ſeverall reformed Churches elſewhere, and comparing England with them, he ſaith, That the practicall power of godlineſſe is generally more eminently viſible in the lives of the generalitie of the people, more ſtrict, pious, leſſe ſcandalous, and licentious in our Engliſh Congregations, where there hath beene powerfull preaching without the practiſe of excommunication, or ſuſpenſion from the Sacrament, then in the reformed Churches of France, Germany, Denmarke, or Scotland; for which I appeale (ſaith he) to all Travellours, and Independent Miniſters, who have lived in the Netherlands, who will, and muſt acknowledge, that in the ſanctification of the Lords Day, ſtrictneſſe of life, and exemplarineſſe of converſation, our Engliſh Miniſters and Proteſtants excell all others.
Theſe be Mr. Pr. his words, upon which Mr. Saltm. maketh this inference, viz. That the Vindication, though it pretend in the generall face of it to be for the Preſbyterie, yet it is cleare, that in aſperſing the Government in all thoſe reformed Kingdomes, where the practiſe and power of it hath beene, it ſecretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world; and though it pull not downe the Government quite, yet it Weakens the poſts, or judgements of men, on which it ſtands.
Anſwer.
1. By what I have read of Mr. Prinnes writings, what I have obſerved of him my ſelfe, and received by report of ſuch as are beſt acquainted with his mind, and wayes, I conceive him to be ſo true an Iſraelite, without all guile, that he will not pretend one thing, when he intends another.
2. For the Aſſertion it ſelfe, there be two things to be conſidered.
1. Whether it be true or no.
2. If ſo, what may be the reaſon of it, that alleadged, or ſome other.
For the firſt: Whether the Aſſertion be true or no?
The reſolution of this Queſtion muſt be made with difference of times; for Countreys, as well as particular perſons, have their variations in Religion, not onelyonly for profeſſion of the faith, but for practiſe of holineſſe: as in King James his dayes, upon the Declaration and libertie granted upon the Sunday, (that is the name in the Declaration, and it is the fitteſt name for a licence of profaneneſſe) for ſports and paſtimes, renewed by the King that now is, the people of England were more looſe and licentious on that day, then now they are, upon the burning of that Book, and an Ordinance of Parliament ſet out for the more holy obſervation of the Sabbath. The Application of this diſtinction may reſolve the obſervation ſeverall waies; and we may ſay, that ſometimes one people or Nation, ſometimes another, (and the ſame people at one time more then at another) may be more conformable in practiſe to the principles of piety.
And as there is a diſtinction of times, ſo of places; ſome are more, ſome leſſe civilized; as in Scotland *Abbot Geogr. P. 207, 208.the Low-land is the moſt civill part of the Realme, where Religion is moſt orderly eſtabliſhed; but the other part called the Highland, which lyeth further to the North, or bendeth towards Ireland, is more rude and ſavage, and ſo further from conformitie in Religion.
And there may be great difference alſo in reſpect of Preachers, and Sermons, wherewith ſome Countries are much better furniſhed then others; and thence are not onelyonly more Civill, but more Religious alſo; for civilitie and religion mutually conduce to the helpe of each other; Civilitie makes men more capable of Religion, Religion makes them more conformable to Civilitie; this is obſervable in many parts of Wales, and Cornwall, which are but poorely ſtored with well gifted Preachers, in compariſon of London, and many other places of this Kingdome.
And whereas it is ſaid, that in the reformed Churches, as in the Churches of France, Germany, Denmarke, and Scotland, the people be leſſe ſtrict and pious, more licentious and ſcandalous then in England, where there hath beene powerfull preaching, without the practiſe of excommunication, and ſuſpenſion from the Sacrament. It is to be conſidered that in England both ſuſpenſion from the Sacrament, and excommuication have beene in uſe, before the depoſition of the Prelates and Service Book; and by this Argument we might plead for the retaining of the Engliſh Prelacie and Liturgie, and againſt the eſtabliſhment of the Preſbytery and Directory, both which Mr. Priune hath in a better opinion and reputation, then the Government and Book which were their predeceſſors in the Engliſh Church; and if we ſuppoſe there is powerfull preaching with the one Government, and not with the other, we ſhould aſcribe the prelation to that which is principall and preſent, viz. the preaching of the word, and not caſt a reproach upon that which is acceſſory (though in a ſecondary degree neceſſary alſo) becauſe it is abſent, ſince the want thereof can contribute nothing to ſpirituall proficiencie, but the preſence and exerciſe of it, very much.
2. Queſtion: If the precedent aſſertion be true, what may be the reaſon?
Anſwer.
If there be leſſe ſtrictneſſe in thoſe forementioned Churches, then in the Church of England, it cannot be charged upon the Preſbyterian Diſcipline, or Government; for there is nothing in that which tends to licentiouſneſſe, and ſcandall, but to the quite contrary; and I can ſpeake it by experience, that the formall admonition of inordinate walkers by the Miniſter, and Churchwardens, without any further proceeding in Diſcipline, hath kept many in more awe, and better order, then without it they would have beene; ſo that where the Word is powerfully preached, and that Diſcipline duely, and piouſly, and impartially adminiſtred, it is not onelyonly very effectuall for preſervation of the profeſſion of Chriſtianitie from Hereſie, and Schiſme, (as *See the Preface to the new Annotations of the Bible. p. 1.of the Church of Scotland is obſerved), but for promotion of the practiſe of piety, and prevention of looſeneſſe of life, as of the Church of Geneva is noted, and acknowledged by Bodine, a Papiſt, in the ſixth Chapter of his Booke, de meth, hiſtoriae.
And if any where the people living under this Government be more generally profane, then where it is not, it may, or rather muſt, be referred, 1. To ſome other reaſon, as in Germany the ſinne of Drunkenneſſe prevaileth ſo much, that this reproachfull Proverbe paſſeth upon them, *Heylin… G… ogr. p. 256.Germanorum vivere eſt bibere: The Germans life is drownd in his liquor: whence it is that they abound in Brewers, *Ibid. p. 260.having 777. of that Trade, 40. Bakers, one Lawyer, one Phyſician, in the Towne of Hamburge; and where they are habitually addicted to that vice, they are little diſpoſed to the power of godlineſſe.
2. In ſome Countries where the Presbyterie is eſtabliſhed, the Miniſters are in meane eſtimation, becauſe they are reduced to a deſpicable povertie, their revenues being kept from them, by the Nobility and Gentry, and they tucked up to *The large Declaration of the late Tumults in Scotland. p. 7, 8.ſome poor pittance, either by way of ſtipendiary benevolence, or ſome other meane allowance, unworthy of the Miniſters of the Goſpel; and which expoſeth them to all manner of contempt, and a baſe dependance upon their patrons: Now where the Miniſters of the Goſpel are deſpiſed, the Goſpel is leſſe honoured, and the people leſſe affected with any doctrine, or dutie of piety, and conſcience.
3. Some reformed Churches, though they admit of the Preſbyterian Government, are the leſſe reformed, becauſe they are in their habitation, and converſation, mingled with profane Papiſts, as in France.
4. And laſtly, the moſt reformed Churches in forraine parts are, and long have beene much unreformed in the Doctrine of the Sabbath; which few foraine Divines teach ſo ſoundly, few foraine Chriſtians obſerve ſo conſcientiouſly, as doe the Divines and Chriſtians of the Church of England; and it is experimentally proved, that according to mens care, or neglect of the ſanctification of the Sabbath, they are more or leſſe pious, or profane, ſtrict, or licentious in their converſations.
It is not then the abſence of Diſcipline, where the Word is powerfully preached, and the Sabbath religiouſly obſerved, that furthereth any thing to holineſſe of life, but the want of theſe (which ſhould be joyned with Diſcipline) which makes it leſſe effectuall for popular reformation; but where all are joyned together, there not onelyonly the ordinary behaviour of men is more orderly, but divers are in their lives ſo ſtrict, ſo exact, that, as a *The Eſſayes of the Lord …erulam. Eſſay …2. ….witty Authour makes the reſemblance, they are like a verſe wherein every ſyllable is meaſured.