The New Query and Determination Upon It, Section 14 – Section 15
SECT. XIIII. The objections taken from a ſuppoſed needleſneſſe of the Preſbytery anſwered.
THat which he produceth againſt the Presbytery in Mr. Prinnes name, conſiſteth chiefly of two particulars.
1. That there is no neceſſitie of it, that it ſhould be eſtabliſhed.
2. The want of efficacie in it, where it is eſtabliſhed.
For the firſt, he produceth a remarkable paſſage (as he cals it) out of Mr. Prinnes Vindication in theſe words.
And if our Aſſembly and Miniſters will but diligently preach againſt that catalogue of ſcandalous ſinnes, and ſinners, they have preſented to the Parliament, and the Parliament preſcribe ſevere Tem porall Laws and puniſhments againſt them, and appoint good Civill Magiſtrates to ſee them duely executed, and inflicted; I am confident, that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one halfe yeare, then all the Church Diſcipline and Conſures now ſo eagerly conteſted for, will doe in an age, and will be the onelyonly true way, and ſpeedieſt courſe to reforme both Church and State at once; which I hope the Parliament will conſider of, and take care, that our Miniſters (like the Biſhops formerly) may not now be taken up with ruling and governing, but preaching and inſtructing, which is worke enough, wholly to engroſſe their time and thoughts.
Anſwer.
This ſaying of Mr. P. I ſee beginneth to be had in honour by out Independent Brethren; for it is the Alpha of Mr. S.E. and Mr. T.T. their defence of poſitions, it is as the Omega of Mr. S. his anſwer to Mr. Prins Vindication, (and I wiſh the Authour of it may have ſo much of it from the better ſort of them as may make him ſome amends for the contumelies, and calumnies he hath ſuffered from the worſe) and if Mr. P. his Teſtimony be ſo authentick with them, (but with moſt of them I know it is not) it may not be amiſſe to minde them, not of a piece of a leaſe, but of whole aIndependencie examined, unmasked, refuted by 12. new parti…ular Interrogatories: detecting both the manifold abſurdities, inconveniences that must neceſſarily attend it, to the great disturbance of Church, State, the diminution, ſubverſion of the lawfull undoubted power of all Chriſtian Magistrates, Parliaments, Synods: and thaking the chiefe pillars, wherewith its Patrons would ſupport it. And, A freſh diſcovery of ſome prodigious New wandering-blazing ſtarres and firebrands, &c.Books of his making, againſt their way.
The words forecited containe three things. 1. A remedie againſt ſcandalous ſinnes, and the ſufficiencie of that remedie, without Church-Diſcipline, and Cenſures, ſo eagerly contended for.
2. An hope that the Parliament will conſider of, and take care that Miniſters may not (like Biſhops formerly) be taken up with ruling, and governing.
3. A reaſon of that hope, becauſe preaching, and inſtructing is work enough to engroſſe their time and thoughts.
1. For the firſt, the Remedy preſcribed againſt ſcandalous ſinnes.
If our Aſſembly and Miniſters will but diligently preach againſt that Catalogue of ſcandalous ſinnes, they have preſented to the Parliament, and the Parliament preſcribe ſevere Temporall Laws, and puniſhments againſt them, and appoint good Civill Magiſtrates to ſee them duely executed and inflicted.
Anſwer.
Here is leſſe required of the Miniſters then is performed by many of them; more promiſed concerning Lawes, Puniſhments, and Magiſtrates then without preſumption can be expected by any: For,
1. For the Miniſters, they preach againſt thoſe ſcandalous ſinnes contained in the Catalogue, and more too; and undertake to adde many more to the Catalogue then are expreſſed; and the Honourable Houſe of Commons hath ſent an Order to the Aſſembly of Divines to that purpoſe; and when a ſupplement is made in obedience thereto, there will be yet more found out not mentioned before; ſo that there will be ſtill new matter for addition, unleſſe there be a reſerve foreign, of remaining particulars, to be added when they are diſcovered, and ſome cautionary Order made that the Miniſter may not be put upon this hard Dilemma, either to adminiſter to any againſt his judgement and conſcience, or to ſuſpend his owne act of adminiſtration with hazard to himſelfe, either for his perſon, or eſtate; which will be a greater inconvenience then any worthy Communicant can ſuffer, if he be upon the Miniſters miſtake unworthily denied his right to Gods Ordinance for one turne onelyonly; (for before the next celebration of the Sacrament that which was doubtfull before may be fully cleared) and of this difference there be two Reaſons.
1. If the party came worthily prepared, and were refuſed, he may have his part in the benefit of the Sacrament, as if he had actually received; for in ſuch a caſe God accepteth the will for the deed.
2. If he have well prepared his heart for that holy Communion, he hath ſo much charitie, as not to take offence at the ſcrupled conſcience of his Miniſter, at leaſt not to deſire that he ſhould act any thing againſt it, becauſe of the counſell and determination of the Apoſtle, Whatſoever is not of faith is ſinne, Rom. 14.23. ſo much humilitie, as to take the repulſe in a doubtfull caſe with meekneſſe, and patience; ſo much faith, as to beleeve that though his innocence for the preſent be under a cloud, the Lord will bring forth his righteouſneſſe as light, and his indgement as the noone day, Pſal. 37.6.
Object. If it be ſaid, the Miniſter may pretend conſcience when it is perhaps ſome ſecret grudge, which tempts him to put upon his Pariſhioner an open diſgrace.
Anſw. 1. I hope we ſhall have ſuch Miniſters, ſo well knowne by their faithfulneſſe in preaching, and conſcionableneſſe in walking, that there will be no ground for ſuch a ſuſpition at ſuch a time.
2. Though the conſciouſneſſe of mine owne innocent intentions might diſpoſe me, for mine owne particular, to accept of any penaltie that a civill Sanction can impoſe, or that the arbitrary revenge of the repulſed partie would inflict, if I were convinced to have kept any from the Sacrament out of ſpight, or a perverſe ſpirit, or inconſiderate raſhneſſe, without a cauſe which may be allowed to be juſt before a competent Iudge; yet I hope, that all who have authoritie to determine any thing upon ſuch miſcarriage of the Miniſter, will thinke it ſufficient, and anſwerable to exact juſtice, that he who ſhall abuſe his power or tranſgreſſe his dutie in ſuch a caſe, be dealt withall lege talionis; that is, that the Claſſis for his undue ſuſpenſion ſuſpend him from the Sacrament, which will bring ſo much more reproach and ſhame upon him, then he brought upon the party refuſed, as the more prudence, pietie, and charitie was required in him, and the more notice is taken of him when he prevaricates in his office and function, and is puniſhed for it in ſuch an open, and eminent manner.
Object. But to leave it in the power of the Miniſter, without an expreſſe and particular rule, to receive, or reject whom he pleaſeth, is to put into his hands an unlimited arbitrary power, which on all hands, in all ſorts of men is diſliked, and diſclaimed.
Anſw. 1. It is not to be left to the Miniſter alone, but to the Presbyterie.
2. Though he act alone in the adminiſtration it ſelfe, he is not to be thought to act by an arbitrary power, when according to his duty (following the rule and his preſent light) he endevoureth to put difference betwixt the holy and profane, betwixt the uncleane and the cleane, …zek. 22.26. and to preſerve the holy Sacrament from contempt, that by a confuſion of holy and unholy communicants, the Browniſts & others who act according to their principles, may not be hardened in their ſeparation from our ſacred Aſſemblies.
And in ſuch a caſe for any private man to obtrude himſelfe upon the Miniſter, is to act an arbitrary power upon him, yea an arbitrary tyranny if he ſhould be authoriſed ſo to doe: and ſhould it be ſo (out we have ſo much experience of the piety, prudence, and indulgence of the moſt Honourable Houſes, that we can never ſuſpect any ſuch preſſure to proceed from them) we can readily reſolve to act, or to forbeare what according to the Dictate of our conſciences we conceive to be enjoyned, or prohibited by our great Maſter, and to beare and ſuffer what ſhall be impoſed on us by our Superiours under him, to whom we profeſſe our obedience is due, (being but private perſons) either actively or paſſively, in whatſover they ſhall determine concerning our perſons, liberties, and eſtates.
2. For that he ſaith of ſevere lawes and puniſhments to be conſtituted, and good Magiſtrates choſen to ſee them actually executed, we confeſſe, if that could be generally, and perpetually expected, or but for the moſt part, there were great hope of much helpe by ſuch meanes againſt both the ſcandalous ſinnes contained in the Catalogue, and others of like kind; but ſo long as Magiſtrates are men of no purer mould, or metall, then Miniſters are, and they paſſe not through ſo ſevere an examination before they be admitted to their offices, as Miniſters doe, nor have ſo many obligations laid upon them for ſinceritie, and integritie, as are laid upon Miniſters; nor ſo many eyes upon them to obſerve their aberrations from a right rule, as Miniſters have; nor are like to have ſo many mouthes open to reprove, or reproach them for, or ſo many hands to reſtraine them from miſdoing, or to puniſh them for it, (as moſt Miniſters in regard of their poverty, and impotencie, for the moſt part may expect, which the Magiſtrates their ſuperiours in eſtate and authoritie need not ſo much to feare) there is no reaſon I conceive, to take all power of cenſure from the Presbyterie, for the Miniſters ſake (for the Elders are not denied to be capable of juriſdiction as they are members of the Civil State) and to put all upon the power, and vigilant and conſcionable execution of the Magiſtrate.
And I doubt not but we may confidently averre, and the experience of precedent and ſubſequent times will make it good, that it is ſo farre from being ſuperfluous that there be a concurrence of the Civill and Presbyteriall power for ſuppreſſion of ſinne, that when both are imployed and improved with all prudence, diligence, and conſcience, to ſuppreſſe the corruption of nature, and to prevent the ſpreading and prevailing of ſcandalous ſins, and when the ſevere and ſtrict diſcipline of private Families, and of common Schooles is added unto them, there will be no cauſe, for all that, to ſuſpect any pleonaſme either of piety, or civilitie, among the people of the Kingdome.
SECT. XV. Of Mr. Colemans Interimiſticall Magiſtracie.
NOr would that way which Mr. Coleman in his late (and yet perhaps too ſoon put forth) Re-examination of the Examination of his Sermon remembreth, be ſo ſufficient of it ſelfe, A Brotherly examination, reexamined. p. 1….as that if it had prevailed, there would have been no need of a Presbytery to ſupply the defect thereof, as he delivereth it: it is this,
At the extirpation of the Prelacie, the Honourable Parliament would have eſtabliſhed Commiſſioners in all Counties as an Interimiſticall Magiſtracie, &c. And this he ſeemeth to conceive a better way of Church Government then that of the Presbyterie; ſo much better, that if that had beene ſet up, this would have beene ſuperfluous.
But in this hiſtoricall paſſage of his, there be many particulars which may come under correction; for firſt, he ſaith the Parliament would have eſtabliſhed Commiſſioners in all Counties, as an Interimiſticall Magiſtracie; And would the Parliament have done it? why did they not doe it? was any power greater then the Parliaments? any prudence more prevalent then theirs? Secondly, Some, ſaith he, (and who they were is enough knowne) fearing that if once it were there placed, they ſhould never get it into their hands againe, cryed it downe, and were a ſtop in the way of the intended worke.
Anſwer.
Who theſe ſome were, is not knowne enough, I thinke not at all; for it is like that a party, a ſmaller party, (for ſo muſt that be which is a contra-diſtinct to the Honourable Parliament) ſhould oppoſe and overbeare the greater part, reſolutions being made by plurality of Votes? It is much more probable (to ſay no more) that ſome, and but ſome, would have ſet up an Interimiſticall Magiſtracie, and that the Honourable Parliament cryed it downe and were a ſtop in the way of the intended worke; my reaſon is,
1. Becauſe they never made Ordinance, or Order for that Interimiſticall Magiſtracie.
2. Becauſe they have done both for the Presbyteriall Government.
3. Becauſe an *Interim Germania deceſtabibis farrago. Bez. reſponſ. ad Baldwin. p. 49. See Bucolz. Ind. Chron. p. 562. ad an. 1548. Epiſt. Brentii Calvine. p. 77.Interimiſticall Temperament hath beene alwaies by the godly, and orthodoxe party attended with jealouſie and feare, and hath beene by them as much hated, as feared.
4. Becauſe that Interimiſticall Magiſtracie that was projected, was too like Prelacie to be liked (by ſuch as deſired a thorow Reformation;) and that in three things eſpecially.
1. In that it had no warrant in the word of God.
2. That it would ſhrinke up the power into a few hands, which ſhould be communicated to many, as the Prelacie did.
3. In that it was contrary to the example of all the truly reformed Churches in the Chriſtian world.