Light for Smoke, Section 5 – Section 6
SECT. V. Whether Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Preſbyteries be like the Independents gathering of Churches.
Smoke. Pag. 23. ANd when people are inſtructed, ſtill your worke remaines to prove your Preſbytery over Congregations, or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church; which may upon the Preſbytery more inſtly be recriminated then where you doe ſo often recriminate upon gathered Churches; and me thinks to me it is unreaſonable to taxe any for Church-gathering, when your Preſbytery is maintained by ſuch a kinde of principle; What is your Claſſicall, your Provinciall, your Nationall Preſbytery, but a Church gathered out of the reſt, call it a veronall, or repreſentative, or what you pleaſe?
Light. Still your worke remaines? You are ſtill putting worke upon me (as I told you before) which was no part of my undertaking, when I examined your Quere; and as unwilling to performe your own, for you ſay in the next precedent paragraph; it is not your worke to diſpute the Intereſt of Elders and people diſtinctly, and yet you have taken upon you a Diſcourſe of Church order in the opening of Mr. Prinnes Vindication; I did not ſo, nor was it needfull in the thing it ſelfe, being fully done by others, nor directly incident to my Anſwer to your paper; Nor if I thought it fit to argue and to diſcuſſe that controverſie, would I doe it in a debate with you, for the reaſons fore-alleadged.
And for your recrimination, that Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Presbyteries are gatherings of Churches out of Churches, which the Presbyterians condemne in your partie, it is a very impertinent and perverſe compariſon; wherein there are many conſiderable differences, (that make it criminall in your Church, and commendable in Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Aſſemblies) which beſides many other are theſe;
Firſt, Theſe ſubordinate gatherings are not made out of any conceipt favouring of ſingularitie, diſdaine, or contempt of entire communion with thoſe out of whom they are gathered, as in your gatherings of Churches, but out of care and compaſſion to them to conſult and provide for their good, as the gathering of the principall Patriots out of the countrey to be united in the Houſe of Commons, is not for making of a Schiſme from their countrey, but for meeting in counſell and care for their countrey.
Secondly, This gathering into Claſſes, &c. is with conſent and free choice of thoſe Societies out of which they are gathered, as it is in the choice of Knights, Citizens and Burgeſſes for the Parliament: not ſo in your Church gatherings, for thoſe who are left out, when you admit of Members in your ſelected choice for Church-way, are diſpleaſed with your neglects of them, and refuſall to adminiſter all the ordinances of God unto them.
Thirdly, Thoſe who you call out as Members of your new gathered Churches, might more conveniently joyne together in the adminiſtration of holy things, as they are by Gods providence diſpoſed of in Pariſhionall dwellings, then your covenanted members, who are many times in their habitations as farre diſtant as London and Dover, yea, ſometimes as farre as London and Amſterdam, Raterdam, Arnhem, or New England: But the gathering of Paſtours and Elders into Claſſicall Aſſemblies, is made with much conveniency, and withall in a kinde of neceſſitie, becauſe the Churches whom they repreſent cannot poſſibly all of them convene in one place, or if they could, they would be too many to be drawn from their dwellings, too many to be admitted to counſell and cenſure.
Fourthly, Gatherings of Miniſters and Elders into Claſſes, &c. makes much for preſervation of truth and peace in Parochiall congregations, but your gatherings of Churches are, and have proved the meanes to broach e…ours, and breed ſchiſmes.
Fifthly, The gathering of Elders for conſultation and proviſion for the welfare of other particular Churches, as it hath ſure ground of religious reaſon, ſo hath it the honour of moſt ancient and honourable preſcription from the*Bin. Tom. 1. Concil. pag. 2. Excuſ. Pariſ. 1636. fourteenth yeere after the reſurrection of Chriſt, Act. 15. to this day, whereas your gathering of Churches out of Churches in a State, and a time of reformation, is a new device, never practiſed, or approved by the godly in former ages.
Sixthly, The gathering of Miniſters and Elders into Aſſemblies Claſſicall, &c. is authorized by the Parliament, the ſupreame Iudicatory of the Kingdome, whereas your Church gathering is not allowed by authoritie, but taken up without it, and againſt it.
SECT. VI. It is unreaſonable to require an undertaking, that the beſt government in conſtitution ſhould he faultleſſe in execution; tyrannic more to be feared in Independency then in Preſbytery.
Smoke. Pag. 23. BƲt what if ſuch at your ſelfe and ſome other godly meeke of your way may propound nothing but wayes of meekneſſe, can you undertake to ſecure the people for hereafter, and for all, and for the way in its own nature?
Light. It is a moſt unreaſonable thing that you ſhould require ſuch a ſecuritie of thoſe who have the greateſt authoritie in their hands, much leſſe ſhould you looke for it from any private man, Miniſter or other; ſince no government how warrantable ſo ever, if managed by ſinfull man, can be ſecured from all abuſe, either by falling ſhort of dutie, by remiſeneſſe, or overſhooting it by rigour; But Sir any rationall man that knoweth the regular conſtitution of the Presbyteriall Government, and the experimentall execution of it in the Churches where it is eſtabliſhed, may be more bold to undertake for it, both for the government it ſelfe, and for the moſt probable conſequences of it, then any may engage for the way of Independency, and the manifold evill effects and fruits of it, whereof ſee Mr.*c. 3. a p 59, &c. Bayly his Diſſwaſive from errours.
Smoke. Pag. 23. You know Epiſcopacis beganne in meekneſſe, and Biſhops were brought in firſt for good, and for peace, but how proved they? tyranny had ever a countenance of meekneſſe, and love, till it got ſeated on the throne.
Light.Epiſcopacie began at ſuch a time as this wherein we live, and upon occaſion of ſuch an evill as now is much complained of, viz. the turning of Religion into Faction, and it was taken up as a remedy againſt it; but when in ſtead of an Antidote againſt contention, it became an Engine of oppreſſion, by the ſlothfulneſſe of ſome, as well as by the ambition of others, (for if ſome had not beene willing to do too little, others had not been able to uſurpe too much) Presbytery was by the Reformed Churches reſtored, and the preſidencie which before was perpetuall, (for feare of the returne of tyranny) was made ſo mutable, that none might be ambitious of it, or injurious by it. And if tyranny have (as you ſay) a countenance of meekneſſe, and love untill it get to be ſeated on the throne, it may be probable that Independencie is preparing for a tyranny, for it pretends much meekneſſe and love, and if it could prevaile, it is like it would ſoone ſet up the tyranny which now it diſclaimeth in others; For the obſervation of Machiavell would in all probability prove true in many of thoſe who meete in Independencie,aHomines ſubinde magis magiſ que ambitioſo… fieri, primo enin… co ſpectare ne ab aliis, opprimantur, poſtea etia… co euiti ut ipſi alios opprimere poſſins. Machiavel. diſp. l. 1. c. 46. p. 188. Men (ſaith he) grow more and more ambitious, for firſt, they ſee to themſelves that they be not oppreſſed, but afterwards their endeavours are to oppreſſe others; So it was with the Anabaptiſts in Germanie, and ſo it would be in many of the ſame ſpirit, eſpecially ſuch as are hardened by the warres in all kinds and degrees of inhumane hoſtility; and if we may judge of their ſpirit by the ſpightfull, diſdainfull, and wrathfull writings, and threats, and facts of many of them who ſort themſelves under Independency, and their oppoſites under the name of Popiſh, Antichriſtian, and prophane, we can expect no moderation or mercy from them, if their might were matchable to their Malignity.