Light for Smoke, Section 27
SECT. XXVII. The Authoritie of the Parliament not pleaded by the Preſbyterians as a ſupplement of Scriptures, as Mr. Saltm. ſuggeſteth; nor ſlighted by them as by Mr. Saltm. it is; of the pretended danger of the Magiſtrates engagement with the Miniſters; of the pretended tenderneſſe of conſciences in Sectaries.
Smoke. Pag. 58. BƲt you cloſe up with that of the Lords and Commous in an Ordinance, &c. I am afraid thoſe are ſuch proofes as you intend moſt in your Preſbytery, to make your ſupplement of Scriptures by Authoritie — and to make us beleeve what you cannot perſwade us to beleeve, and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture.
Light.You had made it a mattercNew Quere. p. 8. of Popiſh and Prelaticall jealouſie, to keepe up their ſuppoſed truths by ſuspecting every thing that appeares for an enemie; WhereupondExam. Sect. 12. p. 44. I ſhewed that there were other motives for oppoſing of Hereſie and Schiſme, (beſides ſuch a jealouſie) and I ſhewed it by inſtances of zeale againſt Hereticks in divers of the Ancients, and concluded with an Ordinance of Parliament of the 20. of October, 1645. wherein they endeavour for the compleat eſtabliſhment of purity and unitie in the Church of God; hereupon you ſay, you are afraid theſe are ſuch proofes as we intend moſt in our Preſbyterie; proofes for what? If you take it for conſtitution of a Presbyterie, we have proved that by Scripture before it was offered to the Parliament; if for execution, you muſt either intend it of an Ordinance of Parliament, to enable us to ſet up the Presbyterie, or for the particular proceedings in the Preſbyterie; If you meane it of the former, we muſt urge the Ordinance of Parliament for it; if any one queſtion it in a Civill Title, we muſt plead it by ſuch a warrant as the Ordinance; if for the particular proceedings, they muſt have ſuch profes and evidence as in other caſes of difference, by perſonall conteſtation.
Smoke. Pag. 58. But I hope that Honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture againſt us, then from their Authoritie.
Light.Doe you hope then that the Parliament will not eſtabliſh the Presbyterie by their Authoritie? or if they doe, that we will make no uſe of their Ordinance, to maintaine the puritie and unitie which that Honourable Senate intended, againſt the confuſion of Hereſie and Schiſme? If ſo, I doubt not but you will be deceived in both; and yet Sir the Presbyterian cauſe will be made good againſt the whole circumference of Sects, who Center in Independency, for toleration of multiplicity of profeſſions in matter of Religion.
Smoke. Pag. 58. But I have not to doe here with anſwer of Ordinances of Parliament. I contend not, but ſubmit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords ſake; nor doth my Argument lye againſt any thing of theirs, but yours: I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties, but Iudges, in our difference I appeale to the Parliament as to Caeſar; nor is it a faire proofe of truth to draw the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard.
Light. But I have not to doe with an Ordinance of Parliament, ſay you, you might have let it alone; I laid no ſuch weight of Argument upon it, as did engage you to anſwer it. Now whereas you ſay, you ſubmit to them in every Ordinance, it is but a complement, for were you ſerious and ſincere in this you profeſſe, would you doe as you, doe cry down Tythes as Antichriſtian, which the Parliament by Ordinance hath eſtabliſhed? or cry up ſuch a libertie of conſcience, and Preaching without Ordination, as they by Ordinance have forbidden? I could put the ſame Quere upon other particulars, wherein you make no more ſcruple in practiſe to goe croſſe to the Parliament, then in your words to contradict me.
Yet you ſay, you dare not undervalue them as to make them parties but Judges in our difference: Then their Authoritie muſt decide the difference; and if the deciſion ſtick on your ſide, will you not accept, or make uſe of it to countenance your cauſe againſt us? you will not, you cannot deny it; why then ſhould you ſay in your next words, It is no faire proofe of truth to draw the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard: If they be Iudges, as you call them, and appeal be made unto them, (as by you it is) why ſhould you impute it as a faulty drawing of the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard to produce their ſentence, or make uſe of their Authority?
Smoke. Pag. 59. You wonder conſidering who was engaged I would ſo undervalue them, to compare them with Papiſts and Prelates.
Light. You wonder? aMy Exam. of your New. Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 44.I ſaid, If you had well conſidered who were engaged for the eſtabliſhment of Church Government, and how farre, before you publiſhed your New Quere, you would not ſure have ſo farre undervalued their piety and prudence, as to compare them with Papiſts and Papall Prelates.
Of theſe words you have made a wonder; you have not onelyonly much freedome of fancy, but a great libertie of conſcience to amplifie, or extenuate, or exchange the words of your adverſarie as you pleaſe; and you doe it ſo often, as to make your credulous Reader, who doth not examine whether you have cited my Examination aright, to conceive that you have anſwered, yea conquered in the Controverſie; when you have but ſlandered my Text, declined the ſtrength of it, ſmoked the light of it, and confounded the order of it, and gotten the victory onelyonly of your own abuſive allegation, or interpretation thereof.
Smoke. Pag. 59. I did confider who was engaged, a Parliament, &c. and had I not highly valued them, I had not ventured ſo farre in my Quere.
Light.Not ſo farre as to oppoſe, retard, and reproach the Church Government, wherein they were ſo farre, ſo publiquely engaged; is this to value them, to value them highly? if ſuch be the price you ſet upon ſuch Honourable Patriots, I ſhall never be ambitious of your good acceptation, nor ſolicitous of your eſtimation of me, whether the rate you ſet upon me be pretious or vile.
Smoke. Pag. 59. I conſidered the fatall troubles which attended the Magiſtrates engagements with the Miniſters.
Light.If the Miniſters engagements in Religion be right, it is a happineſſe that Magiſtrates be engaged with them, and therefore on the one ſide promiſed as matter of great joy, and glory to the Church, that Kings ſhould be unto it as nurſing Fathers, and Queenes as nurſing Mothers, Iſa. 49.23. and on the other required as a dutie to pray for Kings and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet life in all godlineſſe and honeſty, 1 Tim. 2.2. and in all Ages to this day the orthodoxe party have much deſired the Patronage of Princes and civill States in their Religious miniſtrations, as a meanes to propagate the Goſpel in the power and puritie of the Ordinances of Chriſt; and if the Parliament ſhould (which the Lord forbid) yeeld to ſuch a toleration of Religions as you propound, I would know whether you would not deſire the ſecurity of State for that licence you luſt after, if any ſhould oppoſe you therein; and would you not have the power that granted it engage ſo farre, as to make it good unto you, and to ſuppreſſe thoſe who would debarre you of the libertie allowed you? We know the ſpirit of your partie by their ſpeeches, and ſome practiſes ſo well, that we doubt not of this, and we have cauſe rather to beleeve that you would not waite upon the Magiſtrates leiſure, to right you in ſuch a caſe, if you had power for more ſpeedy remedy in your owne hands.
Smoke. Pag. 59.And I conſidered the bloud which hath beene poured out by Nationall compulſion of teader conſciences.
Light.In what Nation doe you meane? if in England, as I ſuppoſe you doe, either onelyonly or chiefly, I confeſſe that in the time of Popiſh Tyranny there was much blood poured out of the ve…es of ſuch as had tender conſciences, ſo tender that they could endure death more willingly then Idolatry. And I deny not but the domination of the Starchamber, and the High Commiſſion were very Tyrannicall, and injurious to tender conſciences, and very bloody (eſpecially the Starchamber) to the porſons of ſuch as came under their cenſure; for I have read the reports of the cruel uſager of Mr. Prim…, Dr. Baſtwick…, and Mr. Burton; and truly Sir, I could not but be affected with compaſſion towards Mr. Lilburne, and with indignation towards his perſecutors (though he have often bewrayed a bitter ſpirit by many diſdainfull contumelies againſt them) upon the reading of the late Relation of his ſufferings proved before the Right Honourable the Houſe of Peeres, Feb. 13. 1645. wherein it is teſtified thataPag. 3. he was whipped from Fleet bridge to Weſtminſter ſo cruelly, that the cords bruiſed his ſhoulders, and made them ſwell as bigge as a penny leafe, and wheales on his backe bigger then a Tobacco-pipe; and that the Warden of the Fleet cauſed him to be gagged in ſuch a cruell manner as if he would have torne his jawes in pieces.
But did not the Parliament ſo farre abominate the Tyranny of theſe Courts as utterly to depoſe them, and to exclude the Biſhops out of the Houſe of Peers? and will you compare their engagements for the puritie and unitie of a reformed Religion, and Government, with the intolerable-Tyranny of ſuch mercileſſe oppreſſours?
And for the tender conſciences ſo much, ſo plauſibly pleaded for by you, and your partie, many who had good meanes to know Sectaries, and no bad minds to miſ-report of them, finde that for a few tender conſciences among them, there are many leprous, ulcerous, blinded, hardned, and cauterized conſciences; to which if the State ſhould be ſo tender as you would have them, it would be cruell to farre better Chriſtians.