Light for Smoke, Section 1 – Section 2
SECT. I. Of the Title Independent, in what ſence it is diſclaimed, in what acknoweldged; and of ſubordination idenied by Mr. S. and puritie in the Church held neceſſary by him.
Smoke. Pag.aIn the former edition the anſwer to me beginneth a new order of figures, ſo this quotation is p. 2. but in the ſecond edition it is p. 12. 12.
FOr the notion of Independencie you ſpeake of, I dare not owne it, becauſe I account my ſelfe both under a ſpirituall and civill ſupremacie, under Jeſus Chriſt and the Magiſtrate ſeverally, and exempt from neither.
Light. Your pretended dependencie on the Magiſtracie will not exempt you from the name or notion of Independencie, (a title diverſly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party, while ſome own and honour it, ſome diſclaime and abhor it,bMien Exam. of the New Quere. p. 2. as I have formerly ſhewed) for you give the Magiſtrate ſo little power in matter of Religion, thatcSmoke. p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of conſcience ſcience therein; cnceiving that, asdM. SAltm. Epiſtle to the Beleevers of ſeverall opinions. p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London, ſome travelling from the North, ſome from the South, ſome from the Eaſt, and ſome from the Weſt, yet all come thither, though there may be ſome miſtaking of the way in each, ſo is the gathering of the Saints into heaven. Which if you meane of ſo many ſeveral Sects of beleevers as in this Booke, and ſome other of your Pamphlets you plead for, you meane it of ſome who are as farre out of the way to heaven, as if a man at Lichfield ſhould travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London, or as if at Barwicke he ſhould travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough.
Smoke. Pag. 12. We dare not be Claſſicall, Provinciall, Nationall, theſe are no formes of wholeſome words, to which we are commended, nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſterie, and Fellowſhip; and if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, we muſt ſuffer till the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noone-day.
Light.The graduall ſubordination of Aſſemblies againſt the Independencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford, ſo that it is needleſſe to take up their defence in this place, at leaſt with you, who (as I have obſerved your genius) are not fit to be taken for an Antagoniſt in any Polemicall point.
And for that you ſay, they are no formes of wholeſome words, it is no more then the Arians ſaid of the words Trinitas, Eſſentia, Hemoeuſios, & Perſona, becauſe they found them not in the Scripture; And if you were not ſwayed by a ſpirit of Libertiniſme, you would thinke them very wholſome words, as ſignifying ſoveraigne remedies againſt the ruptures of Schiſme, and uleers or gangrenes of Hereſie.
Smoke. Pag. 12. Nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſters and Fellowſhip.
Light. Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Miniſterie and ſervice in reſpect of God, may be rulel and authoritie in reſpect of men? are there not Officers in the Church called Elders? and are not thoſe Elders Rulers? and thoſe Elders and Rulers Fathers? and is there not a ſpirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Goſpel? 1 Cor. 4.15. and muſt not theſe by the fifth Commandement be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood, and Fellowſhip? and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers? and may not the father, as the child gives him cauſe, uſe both the rod and the ſpirit of meekneſſe? if not, ſurely the Apoſtle would not have put this Queſtion to the Corinthians, Shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the ſpirit of meekneſſe? verſ. 21. of the ſame Chapter.
Smoke. Pag. 12. And if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, wee muſt ſuffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noon-day.
Light.If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Chriſt, I would call them Dependent, for the moſt of them are ſubordinate to Claſſicall, Provinciall and Nationall Aſſemblies; not Independent, as the feweſt are, and of thoſe few ſome of them are ſo unſound in doctrine that they deſerve not the title of Churches to be put upon them; and if you profeſſe your ſelfe Independent in that ſence you have acknowledged, and for that be ſo called, I pray you Sr. what ſuffering doe you complaine of? is it any ſuffering to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarſh, which you owne? and foro the bringing forth of your righteouſneſſe as the noone day; I muſt tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes diſcovery, that all may ſee, (but thoſe whoſe eyes are darkened with your Smoke) that the unrighteouſneſſe of thoſe Sectaries, whom you embrace as Independent Brethren, in broken forth as the ſmoke of the bottomleſſe pit, Revel. 9.2. with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion.
SECT. II. The Objection of unſeaſonableneſſe of Mr. Saltm. his Quare juſtified, and his groſſe miſtake or wilfull falſification of my words detected.
Smoke. Pag. 14. VVHat better ſeaſon could I come in then ſuch a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards eſtabliſhment? where no thing is ſetled, there nothing can be diſturbed — And whereas you ſay the Parliaments determinations were finall, that holds better for me who might have ſpoken to much leſſe purpoſe had I ſtaid till and had beene done, and the determinations ended and become finall; ſure it was a time then to ſpeake or never; and by your owne account too, for you are pleaſed to reckon up the proceedings of the State in the buſineſſe of Religion, which are ſuch as had I ſtaid I had had a worſe ſeaſon.
Light.In the Title page of my Examination I ſaid your Quaere was unſeaſoanble, and gave reaſons thereof, pag. 4, 5. and among others I reckoned up foure particulars of the ſubordination, and exerciſe of the Presbyteriall Diſcipline, ſet out already by Authority of Parliament, in reſpect whereof your Quere and determination upon it came too late; and it might have beene more ſeaſonable either while the matters were in debate of the Aſſembly of Divines, or when firſt the votes of the Aſſembly were preſented to the Parliament; but when both Parliament and Aſſembly, after much debate, were ſo farre, and ſo publiquely engaged for the Presbyteriall Government, it was too late for ſuch a novice as you by ſo poore and trifling a paper as you put forth to offer to oppoſe it; which was not like (being of ſo little worth) to be of any great weight with the Parliament, (though ſome Independents who will have all their Geeſe to be Swans, ſaid of it, it was a very rationall peece, whoſe fond opinion of it advanced it to the reputation to be thought worthy of a refutation) all the miſchiefe it was like to doe (for no good could reaſonably be looked for from it) was to interpoſe betwixt the command of the Magiſtrate, and the obedience of the people, and to prepare ſuch as are ſilly and perverſe to a prejudice, and to make them refractory againſt reformation intended; and this is one part of the Independents good ſervice they doe to the civill Authority.
Smoke. Pag. 15. For bayting my Quere with truth and peace, you allude to Chriſts allegory that we are fiſhers of men, and if I have no worſe things to bayte with then theſe two, truth and peace, none need I hope to be afraid of the hooke.
Light.In the ſecond Section of my Booke having ſet downe the Title of your looſe ſheete, A new Quere, &c. I ſay thus; He knew well enough the humour of liſtening after newes prevaileth with our people of all ſorts, and therefore being to fiſh in troubled waters he putteth upon his hooke that baite at which it was like many would be nibling. Where it is plaine as may be, my meaning was that your bait was Novelty, not Truth and Peace, where with I begin a new ſentence, and ſpeake diſtinctly of them afterwards, and therefore I may well come upon you with your owne Quere, (miſapplied to me) Why deale you not more candidly? Smoke. p. 16.why are you not more faithfull in your interpretation to the Originall?