Disputations Concerning Matters of Religion, Title page – Table of contents
A DISCOURSE OF DISPUTATIONS Chiefly concerning matters of Religion, with Animadverſions on two printed Books, (mentioned in the Contents following next after the Epiſtles:) The latter whereof, at the requeſt of Dr. John Bryan, (for Cenſure and Advice) being ſeriouſly peruſed; The Author of it, JOHN ONLEY, is thereupon convinced of Error, Slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miſcarriage, not onelyonly towards him, but all the Reformed Churches of the world, out of the way of his moſt affected ſingularity.
By John Ley, Rector of the Church of Solyhull in Warwickſh.
1 King. 18.36.
Anſwer him not.
Dial. inter Aug. & Hieron. Tom. 4. oper. Hieron. p. 397.
Non de Adverſario victoriā, ſed de mendacio quaerimus veritatē.
WHERETO IS ADDED A Conſolatory Letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed Son Mr. NATHANIEL BRYAN: Which immediately followeth after the Diſcourſe of Diſputations.
LONDON, Printed for Nath: Webb and Will: Grantham, at the black Bear in St. Pauls Church-yard, over againſt the little North door, MDCLVIII.
To the VVORSHIPFULL My much Honoured Friend, RIGHARD HOPKINS, Eſq; STEWARD of the City of COVENTRY.
SIR,
IN the publication of theſe papers, I could not but conceive you had ſome intereſt, as a friend to the cauſe and perſon moſt medled within them; nor to him onelyonly, but to all the(a)Dr. Briaes. Dr. Grow. Mr. Baſnet. three religious and learned Miniſters of your City, wherein (methinks) you much reſemble Geneva for number and quality, when it enjoyed an holy Triumvirat of Farellus, Viret, & Calvin, in that order Beza nameth them in the life of Calvin, and giveth them their ſeveral characters, ſo as of all three to make up one(b)Saepe mihi in ment…m veni… p…rfectum quodammedo videri poſſe paſtorem qui ex tribusillis eſſet conflatus. Beza in vitam Calvin. p. 8. perfect Paſtor. I ſhall doe thoſe renowned reformers no wrong, if I ſay of your Preachers, that each of them is complete in himſelfe without his partners: Such hath been the proficience of the Pulpit (both by preaching and praying) ſince their times, and more in England then elſewhere; as divers Travellers (who have had opportunity to know, and ability to judge; and many forraign Divines, who underſtanding our language, have read our printed Sermons, and compared them together with thoſe of other Nations) have cenſured. I teſtifie this truth the rather, becauſe, though there be ſome difference in judgement, (bleſſed be God it is not great) yet there is no diſſenting in affection among them. Religious duties are unanimouſly performed: Chriſtian ſociety and Miniſterial brotherhood ſweetly maintained, and all offices ſuitable to ſuch relations, mutually and affectionately exchanged: to whoſe concord and communion, I ſhall make bold to apply His Highneſs Eulogium of the Army in his Narrative from Briſtol, Sept. 14. 1645. in(c)Engl. Recovery. part. 2. p. 118. theſe words; Presbyterians, Independents, all have here the ſame Spirit of Faith and Prayer, the ſame preſence and anſwer, they agree here, and have no names of difference: Pity it is it ſhould be otherwiſe any where.
Now as I have matched your City with Geneva for your Miniſters, ſo I wiſh your City-Magiſtrates may match theirs in vigilancy, vigour, and good effects of Government, who (as Bodin, a famous French Papiſt, maketh the report of them)(d)Ridiculum eſt ad legem eſſe bonos; allam cenſuram quâ nil magis ac divinius cogitari potuit ad coercendas hominū cupiditates latenter primùm, & amicè, quam ſequitur animadverſio magiſtratuum. Jo. Bod. Method. Hiſt. c. 6. p. 245. Ita fit ut quae legibus nuſquam, &c. igitur nullae meretrices, nullae ebrietates, nullae ſaltationes, nulli menaici, null otioſi in ea civitate reperiuntur. Ibid. holding it a ridiculous thing, to be good onelyonly by good Lawes, follow Conſiſtorian Cenſures againſt the Contumacious, with civil Animadverſion of the Magiſtrates. Hence it commeth to paſs that thoſe vices which no where elſe, are there reſtrained, ſo that there is no whoredom, no drunkenneſs, no dancing, no beggars, no idle perſons to be found in that City.
My hopes come up the higher toward my wiſhes hereof, becauſe you do not onelyonly encourage your able, watchful, and painful Paſtors many wayes eſpecially, as the Apoſtle admoniſheth, Heb. 13.17. by your Chriſtian compliance with their holy Miniſteries, (ſeconded by their exemplary practice) but you do the like to your learned, pious, and induſtrious Schoolmaſter,(e)Mr. Samuel Frankland. alſo with the ingenuous and hopeful youths under his inſtitution. This you manifeſted in a very eminent manner, when the laſt year Mr. Major, with your ſelfe, the Aldermen, and many other ſubordinate Citizens, came in a venerable equipage to the Free-School, to grace their exerciſes with your preſence and audience: & though I cannot ſay with intelligence, of all or moſt, becauſe a good part of it was Greek, (a ſtrange Tongue even to the Roman Prieſts, and that bygGraecum eſt non poteſt legi. (Proverb) yet ſome did underſtand it; more the Latine: and the pleaſantneſſe of their voices, the gracefulneſſe of their elocution and action, the fidelity of their memories, preſented a gratefull experiment to ſuch as were skilled in neither of them, and exerciſed no faculty ſuperiour to ſence and fancy.hIt is under conſultation I heare hereafter to give ſome reſpective entertainment to ſuch in their Native Language. But that which the wiſer ſort of Spectators and Auditors of all ranks (I conceive) chiefly intended, was, to profeſſe themſelves opponents to the late illiterate Sects, who cry down Schools and Univerſities, and would have our Miniſters no more learned then the Italian Friers of the order of S. Ignorance, who (as Luther writeth of them) were forced to ſolemn oathes that they would neither know, learn, or underſtand any thing at all, but ſhould anſwer all queſtions with neſcio Now if you had confined your beneficence to the Miniſters and other profeſſors of learning within your own City-walls; I ſhould have held my ſelf the leſſe obliged to this publick acknowledgement: but, Sir,iLuther, Colloquia menſalia, or Divine diſcourſe at his Table. c. 40. p. 415. it is too extenſive in this kind to be either perſonally or locally limited. So that if the Arminians had not rendred the expreſſion ſuſpected of hereſie, I would call it Univerſall Grace, or Catholick charity. (to our whole reformed Tribe, and to all ingenuous Students their allies) if the Papiſts had not ſoiled that word with a ſavour of their Ubiquitary errour. I have this confidence by intelligence from ſuch as (upon experience) own you as a Patron of their juſt cauſes, in taking timely cognizance of them, and giving your efficacious countenance unto them: and to my ſelf, you have been pleaſed, (though yet I have had none opportunity to be any way ſerviceable to you) to anticipate my deſires, in the offer of your favour. For all which (in my brethrens name, and mine own) I profeſſe my ſelf,
Sir, Your ſincerely devoted ſervant, JOHN LEY.
ERRATA.
IN the Epiſtle to Samuel Ebrall, Eſq; in the ſecond Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. dele two. r. Parentheſis. p. 2. l. 18. r. your. p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation. P. 4. in marg. r. arrogantia. p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg. r. 26. r. Roſcius. l. 29. r. diſcovered. p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp. l. 18. r. Butler. p. 7. l. 1. r. catholicks. p. 8. l. 19. r. may. p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice. p. 15. marg. r. quod. p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges. p. 19. l. 25. r. 1. of God. p. 21. l. 24. of man. p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa. l. 29. r. all night. p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg. r. deletum. p. 28. l. 2. r. diſſentire. l. 8. adde for. p. 29. in marg. r. Poſſed. p. 34. l. 6. r. to. l. 22. r. things. in marg. r. ab. p. 35. l. 26. r. Expoſitors. p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus. p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius. p. 44. l. 5. adde day. p. 46. l. 33. add theſe. l. 34. adde Campian. l. 35. adde, the Conference. p. 47. l. 15. adde, it. p. 48 Chap. V. Contents of the Chap. adde with the cauſes of them. l. 22. r. was. p. 49. l. 1. r. two. p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. adde, it. l. 36. adde, as. l. 38. adde forenoted. l. 39. r. ſome. adde, a doubt. d. 54. l. 8. dele is. p. 55. l. 15. dele in another Chapter. p. 58. l. 10. adde, as a fained. l. 34. add, to doubtful debate. p. 62. l. 17. dele for. l. 33. dele for Coſterus. p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19. r. Coſterus. p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty. l. 16. adde In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges. l. 26. adde them. p. 95. l. 21. adde, a man to ſleep. p. 97. l. 8. r. helpleſs. p. 100. over againſt. l. 6. r. in marg. So in the Diſputation at Kenelnsworth publiſhed by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like.
To the VVORSHIPFULL my very worthy Friend, Samuel Ebrall Eſq;
Sir,
YOu were an hearer (as I have heard) of the Diſputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian, and John OnelyOnly, but (as he hath ſet it forth in print) it would be more ſuitable to ſay Dr. John OnelyOnly, and John Brian; ſo far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himſelf, without due reſpect to the modeſty of a Chriſtian, the ingenuity of a Scholar, and the diſcretion of an ordinary rationall man; and ſo much hath he vilified the Doctor (in another book publiſhed by him ſince) whom all men (who know him, and are of any note for Learning and Religion,) highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both: and for his excellent faculty, and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechiſing, there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. OnelyOnly his match among the Antipaedobaptiſts, (as he calleth his Aſsiſtants at the diſputation at Kill.) for inſolence of Spirit, ſupercilious contempt of ſuch as are not taken with his Tenets. Some I am ſure there are who though they have too much affinity with ſome of his fancies and opinions, ſhew much manſuetude and civility to thoſe that ſteer their Miniſteriall and Chriſtian courſe by other principles; yea and they hold religious communion with them in publick ordinances not distinctive. But Mr. OnelyOnly, as he hath a name of ſingularity, ſo he is the fitter to be the ringleader of ſome notorious Schiſme; like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage, to whom, if a denomination had been given him (out of a time of faction) according to his learning and manners, it muſt have been, not Primianus, but Ultimianus. This with my diſcourſe of Diſputations in matter of Religion, mine animadverſions on the printed Diſputation hold at Kill. and on Mr. D. his ſecond book, and my deſired advice to Dr. Brian, (concerning it) whether to anſwer him or no; I have preſented to publick view, with a particular addreſſe unto your ſelf; that of a true and intelligent witneſſe, you may become an equall and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. ſuper tota materia as now it is drawn out in his ſecond book: and I was glad of this occaſion to teſtifie how much contentment I take in the ſituation of my Reſidence, as in vicinity to yours, whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood, your friendly viſits, and many other affectionate offices; whereto there ſhall be no want of any anſwerable returnes which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers, and beſt obſervance of
Your faithfull friend. and humble ſervant JOHN LEY,
For the very Reverend his highly honoured Friend, Mr. Iohn Ley, Paſtor of Solyhull.
Reverend Sir,
YOur Conſolatory Letters I cannot ſufficiently bleſs God and You for, and therefore do again return my moſt humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expreſſed, withal earneſtly craving leave to make them publick; the doing whereof, will (I am aſſured) redound much to the glory of God, erecting many ſouls dejected for the like loſs, and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreſhing, which ſhall come from the preſence of the Lord.
Sir, there is another trouble fallen upon my ſpirit, wherewith I take the boldneſs to acquaint you; occaſioned by an Examination of ſome of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagoniſt John Onley, which hath been abroad (as I hear) a long time, but lately came to my notice by a Miniſter 20. miles diſtant. I find the Book ſo full of bitterneſs and arrogancy, that I queſtion whether it be better to let the man alone, or to anſwer him according to his folly: I have ſent it to you, requeſting your peruſal thereof, and your advice what I ſhall doe (with all convenient ſpeed) which ſhall lay a further Obligation upon.
Sir, your Fellow-labourer in the work of the Lord, and bounden ſervant, JOHN BRIAN.
To which Letter of Dr. Brian, a ſhort and ſummary anſwer is returned in the next leaf; a full one in the whole diſcourſe following.
A Table of the Contents of each Chapter.
CHAP. I.
HOw ſome have been, and are averſe from, or adverſe to diſputations in Religion, how far, and for what reaſons. pag. 3.
CHAP. II.
Of a contrary diſpoſition in ſome too much addicted to diſputation, in being too forward to make, or accept of offers of dispute, and multiplying of needleſs and preſumptuous queſtions and reſolutions in matters of Religion. p. 12.
CHAP. III.
That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and Reaſon, and not onelyonly lawful, but ſometimes alſo expedient and profitable. p. 17.
CHAP. IV.
An Hiſtorical collection of Diſputations of ſeveral ſorts, principally concerning differences in matters of Religion, in two Sections; the 1. Containing examples from the Apoſtles to Luther. 2. Of examples from Luther to the preſent age. p. 31.
CHAP. V.
Of the various iſſues and ſucceſſes of Conferences, Colloquies and Diſputations about matters of Religion. p. 48.
CHAP. VI.
How Disputations are to be ordered, that the truth may be cleared; and being cleared, both it and they who plead for it may be ſecured from reproachful miſreports. p. 57.
CHAP. VII.
Of the Diſputation at Kenelmworth, betwixt John Brian Dr. in Divinity, Minister at Coventry, and John Onley, Paſtor of a Church at Lawford (as he calls himſelf.) How it was occaſioned, undertaken, and continued at divers monthly meetings there. p. 73
CHAP. VIII.
Of the printing of the diſputation. By whoſe motion it was made. By whom, and how managed. p. 76.
CHAP. IX.
Of Mr. John Onley his quality and condition, his wit and utterance, his ignorance and arrogancy, his reproachful ſpeaking of ſuch as are not of his Sect, and partiality to himſelf and them; his carping at the Magiſtrates for medling with matters of Religion, and countenancing of Miniſters. p. 80.
CHAP. X.
A Concluſive Anſwer to Doctor Brians deſire of Advice, whether it be better to let Mr. O. alone, or to anſwer him according to his folly; ſent him a good while ago by his Son, but now publiſhed with enlargment for ſasisfaction of others as well as of the Doctor himſelf. Reaſons many and weighty for the Negative. p. 102.