Separation Examined, Text (3 of 3)

Separation Examined · Text (3 of 3)

p. 753 I have obſerved, that ſeven have been eſteemed enough to make a Church; ſuppoſe now one of theſe ſhould offend another of the ſeven, he muſt deale with him, if he will not heare, he muſt take two more, here are four of the ſeven, if he will not hear them, tell the Church, that is, the three left, the reſt are parties.

Some to prove that Mat. 16. To thee I give the Keyes, muſt be meant the Fraternity, ſay, that To Thee, here is the ſame with Mat. 18.

But this is ſomewhat doubted, for that in Mat. 18. may well bee meant of a particular Church, The viſible Church is here meant ſaith Mr. Hoober Sur. p. 278.but in this place the Church muſt bee meant of the Catholike viſible Church: for it muſt be ſuch a Church as muſt not faile.

But particular Churches may, this or that particular Church I meane.

2 But ſuppoſe i the ſo, yet why muſt that Mat. 18. be meant only of the Fraternity? Tell the Church, i. e. the Fraternity, if hee will not heare the Church, i. e. the Fraternity, where are the Officers, are they no body? one in New England would needs know of me, why they ſhould tell the Miniſters of it, when as it is, Tell the Church, not the Miniſters? this indeed would confirme it, and here we ſhould have brave order.

p. 76Mr. Vind. vin. p. 6.Cawdry upon that Text ſeemes to have a good Argument, ſince that the Kingdome of Heaven is there meant the Church, the keyes are given to Peter as diſtinguiſhed from the Church; It is not a reaſonable conſtruction (ſaith he) of the Text to ſay, I give to thee the keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven, that is, of the Church, and to mean, I give to the Church the keyes of the Church; whence he concludes, they were given to Peter, and ſo to the Officers for the Church, as the keyes are given to the Steward for the family. This Argument is worth the Anſwering.

Object. The ſtrongeſt Objection to mee is this, the firſt ſubject takes up the whole adjunct, for there is a reciprocation; therefore the Presbytery cannot be the firſt ſubject, for the keyes are not reciprocated with them; inſtance is given in Election, Admiſſion of Members, Diſcipline, which cannot be performed without the Fraternity.

Anſw. If reciprocation be ſo required, &c. then this will as well deny the people to bee firſt ſubject, for reciprocation cannot bee with them; for Preaching, Adminiſtration of Sacraments, Government &c. to be ſure the people cannot doe; there will be more ſaid for the Presbytery; they actually chooſe, they actually admit, they actually govern and exerciſe diſcipline, they have both the Power and the Act: but for the people they cannot doe any Act which belongs to the Officer, nor have ſo much as the power of it: we may ſee by this, where the power will cheifly reſide: to ſay, the Fraternity, though they have not officiall power, yet they have power to chuſe an Officer, and ſo conſequently, they are the firſt ſubject, this is very unſatisfactory, to have the Adjunct reciprocated at the ſecond hand, it being denyed before that they have the Adjunct; the reciprocation betweene homo & animal riſibile is not at ſecond hand

2 This doth not at all ſhake me, but I ſtand on my ground ſtill, conceiving, that the Church or ganized is the firſt ſubject of the power of the Keyes, not that I make the people equall ſharers in the power of the keyes with the Officers, but what I mean I ſhall expreſſe afterwards.

3 Yet am I not ſatisfied (nor could ever be) that whatever belongs to the Church muſt needs be included in the power of the keyes; Election, I look at it only as Potest as circa claves, but not to be a power of them.

The Text tells us the uſe of them, what thou bindeſt, what thou looſeſt, to bind and to looſe is the uſe of them: but what is this to the election of an Officer? when as hee may refuſe their Call, or the Call p. 77of any Church? how doe they looſe him or bind him? Electio noncogit.

For the other two things, Admiſſion, and Diſcipline: Thoſe Divines, who ſay, that Baptiſme makes men Members of the Church, if they can prove this ſtrongly, they will carry away the former, ſcil. that the people have nothing to do in Admiſſion of members, for baptiſme makes members; now to this I cannot yet fully agree, there might be much ſaid for the contrary. I conceive the New England Divines have ſpoken well to this beſides the opinion of M. Cartwright, Anſ to 32. Qu. p. 12.and Ames, who joyn with them.

So, thoſe Divines who affirme the Presbytery may excommunicate, renitente plebe, if they can prove it ſtrongly, they will carry away the latter, and then indeed its cleare, the people have no intereſt in the power of the keyes; but this neither can be admitted, and the ſtreame of Divines oppoſe this.

But though I yeeld the Miniſtry cannot orderly doe theſe things without the people, yet I deny the people do theſe things in the ſame way and order, that the Miniſtry doth them: And therefore Quaere, Whether it be proper to ſay, the people hath any power of the keyes?

For Admiſſions, this will be more troubleſome, becauſe we finde no examples of the Churches where the people did ſhew their power in Admiſſions: for that act of Paul, Act 9.26, 27. Whether it be ſufficient to prove it, I leave it to conſideration; they did not admit, why? they were afraid of him, the text ſaith, being a perſecutor, then no wonder the Apoſtles, as well as the people, were afraid of him; the 27 verſe ſaith, Barnabas carried Paul to the Apoſtles, not to the people, which would imply, the Apoſtles carryed the ſtroke in Admiſſions.

Further to ſearch into this, let us ſuppoſe the Miniſtry of the Church of Corinth preach, an Infidell heare them, the man is ſo far convinced of the vanity of his Heatheniſm, and danger of his ſinful luſts he wallowed in, and ſo far convinced of the neceſſity of that Doctrine which he heares, that he renounces his Idols, reforms his converſation, &c. now he comes to the Miniſters to ſignifie what is done, and what he deſires, to be received into the Church, and be baptized, being willing to give up himſelfe to that doctrine: the Miniſtry [inſtrumentally] hath wrought this; now what power hath the people here to hinder this man? is it at their choyce whether they will admit him or no? when the Officers ſee what effect the preaching hath had, here being a Diſciple made, ſhal they be hindred from baptizing him? what power p. 78have the people here? what ſhall they goe firſt and examine him? I know not where examination was ever given to the people; muſt he make his profeſſion of faith before all the Church, as Victorinus that brave Rhetorician? Aug. Con feſ. l: 8. c: 2.we find it was not their courſe to doe ſo with all thoſe whom they admitted, for many did onelyonly to the Presbyters: This power indeed the brethren have, that if any know this man to live in a known way of wickedneſſe, that cannot poſſibly ſtand with any hopes of faith, to come and give in witneſſe againſt ſuch a perſon to the Officers: I ſuppoſe this will be yeelded, and the Officers would not now baptize him. But what power more they have, I know not; they ſee his converſation, and can teſtifie of that, but it were ſtrange that it ſhould be left to the peoples choyce, whether they will admit a man or not, when the word hath had ſo much power, and they cannot bring in ſufficient objections to the contrary. Put caſe the major part of the members of the Church had drunk in ſome errors [that a major part may do ſo, hath been proved in our time] and they will not give their conſent to the admiſſion of the man, if they finde him not of their opinion [commonly thoſe who have drunke in error, uſe to look untowardly upon thoſe who are contrary] now the Miniſters have no power to admit this man, nor baptize him, though they ſee he hath right to it. But I leave that.

For Diſcipline, I conceive renitente plebe, the Elderſhip ſhould not excommunicate: it is in vaine to doe ſo indeed, if the people will hold communion: but yet this doth not argue that the people doe here act, as doth the Elderſhip; For the Elderſhip doth it Authoritativè, the people by a popular conſenting with the Officers, that the perſon bee excommunicate: the people doe act here obedientially to their Officers, therefore a vaſte difference is betweene them. I remember a paſſage of Mr. Hookers in the Aſſembly of Divines; When a caſe is brought to the Elders, the Elders having ſearched all things to the bottome, now the Elders bring the caſe to the Fraternity, and lay it down clear before them, this is the caſe, and this ought to be done, now (ſaid he) the people are bound to obey us, as well as when wee preach. And it is cleare, for as in preaching they diſcover the minde of God, ſo in this ſentence they declare the ſame concerning this act. Keyes 152 Cor. 10.6. We have in readineſſe to revenge all diſobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Mr. Cotton ſaith, the Apoſtles revenge of diſobedience by way of reproofe in preaching, doth not follow the peoples obedience, but proceedeth, whether the people obey or not; it was therefore their revenge by way of cenſure in Diſcipline, p. 79which they had in readines, when the obedience of the Church is fulfilled in diſcerning and approving the equity of the Cenſure, which the Apoſtle, or Elders have declared to them from the word.

That phraſe, diſcerning and approving of the equity, needs a little more clearing; but I leave them: However this Reverend Divine ſeems to refer that obedience unto the wil of Chriſt, by the words going before his expoſition, yet that hinders not, but it may in ſome ſence be applyed to their officers [who alſo obey Chriſt] for that phraſe is not ſtrange to have people obey their officers, Heb. 13.17. O bey your Rulers, there may be ſome thing in it, not only obey your Teachers, but Rulers; when they rule, as when they preach, Mr. Norton expreſſing, Reſp. ad Apol. p. 67.as I conceive, how the brethren act with the Elderſhip [for ſo I remember it was in his Tables which I had, & had ſome thoughts to have Printed them, but in that great fire, when Colcheſter was beſiedged (having lent them to a friend) they were burnt, as I heare) Partes judicii in rebus juriſdictionis, quales ſunt fratrum examinatio, dijudicatio & ſententiatio Cauſae per modum obedientiae, Presbyterio debitae, 2 Cor. 10.16. & cap. 2.9.

Mr. Gilleſpie, alſo beſides his own opinion giveth reaſons, Aar. rod, p. 289, &c.and alledgeth divers Divines, who interpret this place of Church cenſures: & theſe words, when your obedience is fulfilled, gives him one ground for his interpretation: for as Eſtius and Novarinus explain the Apoſtles reaſon, it is in vain to excommunicate all ſuch as are worthy of excommunication, when there is a generall renitency in the Church: but ſtill we obſerve the people act obedientially to their officers, that they did not at that time, was their fault.

Beſides, if excommunication be the higheſt act of Rule, and therefore cannot be performed where Rulers are not, as ſaith Mr. Cotton: and if a homogeneall body can expreſſe no ſpirituall Juriſdiction, but onelyonly withdraw, as ſaith Maſter Burroughs, then the people having Rulers, are not now made Rulers, nor have the power of juriſdiction; there is indeed juriſdiction exerciſed among them by reaſon of their Rulers, to whom they conſent and obey.

Government is proper to the Presbytery, ſaith acute Mr. Norton, Reſp: ad Apol. p: 65 67:and ſhewes under ſeven particulars how the Presbyters governe in Church affairs, and ſo in this exerciſe of Diſcipline: if ſo, then the people are governed in this act; how then doth a people governed, act in reference to Rulers governing, but by way of obedience? So that to mee there appeares a vaſte difference betweene the power p. 80of Diſcipline, as it is in the hands of the Presbytery, and as in the hands of the people, though the Miniſters cannot excommunicate without the people.

I ſpeake a few words to this point here, becauſe I would ſpare the labour in another place.

As for the Analogy drawne from the civill power, the people are the firſt ſubject of civill power; Ergo the Fraternity is the firſt ſubject of Church power; For the Antecedent I leave that, but the conſequence I ſhould deny, there is a great diſproportion.

Firſt, The People are not the effect of their Magiſtrates, or follow after them (as the people of Iſrael were not of Saul) but the Fraternity, quâ ſic, is the effect of the Miniſtry: The Apoſtles converted, and after them the Miniſters converted; Converting is but to make the people ſuch, for whom the power of the keyes is given:

Secondly, There is ſome thing in this; In Corporations, if the people have elected a man to be an Alderman, or Mayor, if he refuſe it, there is a Fine ſet upon him; ſome have been fined 20 li. ſome more according as the Corporations are: but if the body of the people will chooſe an Officer, and he will refuſe it, what then? I know no kind of Church act that reaches him: this ſhewes there is ſomething more in civill then Church power,

Thirdly, The people do give to their Magiſtrates a power to make Lawes, &c. for their good; but the Church gives no power into the hands of her Miniſters, but they have all their power immediately from Chriſt.

Fourthly, Hence the people may limit their people, or inlarge it: But the people cannot limit, nor inlarge the power the Miniſters have.

Fiftly, We ſee the Magiſtrates Act in the name of the people [in the name of the Commonwealth of England] but Miniſters doe not act in the name of the Church, but Chriſt; as ſaith Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Norton before quoted.

More might be produced, but I content my ſelfe with theſe; and though that maxime be received, Salus populi, Suprema lex, yet it hinders not but the people may ſave themſelves, though they be not the firſt ſubject of the keyes. Mr. Richardſon, whom Dr. Ames and Mr. Manuſcr: Tables.Hooker, honoured much, and follow much, placeth the power of binding, and looſing in the Governours, not in the people.

This diſcourſe I have runne into by anſwering to the firſt Propoſall, p. 81which being the maine, I have beſtowed more lines about it; the reſt I ſhall run over quickly. Come we now to the ſecond.

The ſecond Propoſall may be this; The ſecond Propoſall. No Congregational Divine dares put the forme of a Church in the expliciteneſſe of the Covenant, but theſe doe. Survey, pare firſt, p. 47, 48.Wee would have an explicite Covenant in every particular Church, this we judge to be the forme of a Church, and we cannot joyne with a Church without it.

A. Many people have taken up this by the end, a Covenant is the forme of a Church, underſtanding it of an explicite Covenant, but they know not what a Forme is; if they did, they would be more wary then they are. But let us heare what Congregationall men ſay, from whom you take up this word.

1 Mr. Hooker ſaith, an implicite Covenant preſerves the true nature of the true Church, &c. and an implicite Covenant is, when in their practiſe they doe that, whereby they make themſelves ingaged to walke in ſuch a ſociety, according to ſuch rules of government, which are exerciſed amongſt them, and ſo ſubmit themſelves thereunto, but doe not make any verball profeſſion thereof. Thus the people in the Pariſhes in England, when there is a Miniſter put upon them by the Patron, or Biſhop, they conſtantly hold them to the fellowſhip of the people in ſuch a place, attend all the Ordinances there uſed, and the Diſpenſations of the Miniſter ſo impoſed upon them, &c. by ſuch actions, they declare that by their practiſes, which others hold forth by publick profeſſion; thus farre Mr. Hooker, ſo Mr. Norton, Reſp. ad Apollon. p. 22.28. ſo the Confeſſion of Church Diſc. by the Synod of New England.

2 You have a Nationall Covenant, a ſolemne one, I thinke it is ſtrong enough if you obſerve it well: there is that which anſwers the Covenants you finde made in Scripture.

To ſay, by that we are made a Nationall Church; this were very ſilly, yet I thinke there may be ſo much ſaid for a Nationall Church that will not readily be anſwered. But ſuppoſe the Churches in New England [which God forbid] ſhould decline, &c. If the Generall Court ſhould make ſuch a Covenant to paſſe through all the Churches in the Colony, would it make a Nationall Church? they would conceive their Churches ſtill to be Congregationall.

3 I make no doubt but you ſhould have found (if you had but a little patience) that when the Miniſters had come to ſet up Diſcipline, they would have brought their people under p. 82ſome ſtricter tye, to ſubject to Church Diſcipline, I have heard ſome ſpeake of it; they would have found it too laxe, that implicite conſent to make people put in execution that, Matth. Read his firſt chapter, in ſome Churches he ſaith, there was Solennis proteſtatio ſubjection is, ſub diſcipliná Eccleſiaſticâ. p. 13.18.15, 16, &c. as ſome have found before them; and it was not without ſome cauſe that Apollonius ſets downe that, as one thing that is required of a Church-Member, and whom they will admit to the Lords Supper, That he ſhall promiſe to ſubject himſelfe to Diſcipline; he tells us, thus it was concluded upon in ſeverall Synods, he mentions fix Synods. I have found the experience of this ſo already, that I ſhould thinke my ſelfe in a poore caſe to exerciſe Diſcipline without it; the people feele ſome ſtricter tye upon their ſpirits, and I thanke God I have knowne good effects by it.

4 If you will needs goe cloſer doe, you may enter into a cloſe Covenant, as did thoſe worthy Chriſtians in Wetherfield, in that old Prophets dayes, who ſets downe their Covenant in his ſeven Treatiſes; but they did not ſeparate as you doe. Excell thoſe Chriſtians if you can.

The third Propoſall; The third Propoſall.We would have no Church-Members but viſible Saints.

A. This were a thing to be wiſhed indeed, and that I beleeve which the Miniſters would be glad, if they could attaine it; I gave you inſtances before out of their Bookes, and it is that which they would put forth their power to effect, ſo farre as the ſtate of the Kingdome is capable of, if once they were inveſted with power to exerciſe Diſcipline; and indeed as the condition of England ſtands, there is need of a Civill Power to back them; the caſe is not now, as in the Primitive times.

2 You muſt put a difference between Churches new erecting, and theſe in England, which have been Churches ſo long; when I raiſe a houſe new from the ground, I may then doe as I pleaſe, but if I be mending of an old houſe, I muſt doe as well as I can, repaire by degrees.

3 What would you have done with all the reſt, Excommunicate them? that's a peece of work indeed; and beſides, there is a great deale of worke to doe before we come to that, it may be many will not be found contumacious; nay you ſee, they doe ſeparate them from the Lords Supper, and divers begin to looke ſomething more narrowly to baptiſme.

4 How many corrupt Members doe you finde in the Church p. 83of Corinth and Galatia? for the latter, what a change was there made in their affections towards Paul? Gilleſp. Aar. rod. 287.who cloſe did they cleave to thoſe Judaizing Zelots? who turned them away almoſt to another Goſpel, inſomuch that though Paul wiſhed thoſe Seducers were cut off, Gal. 5.12. i. e. by Excommunication, yet he did not peremptorily command it, renitente Eccleſiâ. The Church of Corinth had drunke in vile errours, the women it ſhould ſeeme (diſorderly) would ſpeake in the Church; and for Members, 2 Cor. 12.20, 21. you may conceive by the ſins there mentioned, what they were many of them, Ch. 13.2. Aar. rod, 289.Paul indeed ſaith, he wil not ſpare them. This place Maſter Gilleſpie thinkes gives light to, Ch. 10. & 6. When your obedience is fulfilled; our Miniſters debarreſuch from the Supper.

5 If you did not thus ſeparate from them, they might doe more towards the reforming of their Congregations, but you weaken their hands, as I ſhall touch hereafter.

6 But what doe you meane by viſible Saints, what is required, or how would you judge of one? what, would you have them reall Saints? I ſuppoſe you doe not thinke ſo, croſſe to the texts, the Floore, the Drag-net, &c. what would you have ſuch, as by the exacteſt ſcrutiny that can be made, we may judge to be Saints really? I defire your Texts for this. Did the Apoſtles doe thus when they baptiſed any? ſurely they muſt either judge by an Apoſtolicall Spirit, but we ſee they were miſtaken if they did ſo; or elſe they muſt ſtay a good while and try men, winter them, The Churches after took more time, but they did not come to that exact ſcrutiny, &c. Bell. ener. to. 2. l. 2. c. 1. ſ. 5.and ſummer them (as we ſay) before they did judge of their Saint-ſhip; but this they did not doe, they baptiſed them quickly; ſuch Members as the Apoſtles admitted, we may, or elſe give us texts to the contrary. I have touched this in another Tract, deſiring, that thoſe who are for ſuch ſtrictneſſe in Members, would give us their grounds; remember Doctor Ames, Falſum eſt internas virtutes a nobis requiri, ut aliquis ſit in Eccleſiâ quoad viſibilem ejus ſtatum.

The fourth Propoſall; We would have power in admiſſion of Members, and in Excommunication.

Anſ. For admiſſion of Members:

1 When you bring proofe out of the Word, what power Church-Members have exerciſed in admiſſion of Members, I hope you ſhall finde none ſhall debarre you from having that power.

p. 842 When there are Members to be admitted, who never were Church-Members, you ſhall finde it granted, but that is not our caſe here; if you would have power in admiſſion to Sacraments, you have that liberty given you, to bring in Teſtimonie for, or againſt; and if you bring in ſufficient proofes againſt perſons, you ſhall finde they ſhall not be admitted; thus muſt you doe in any Church what-ever. If any good Chriſtian ſhall come, and give in teſtimony for another, the Miniſter will gladly receive it.

For Excommunication, the Presbyteriall Miniſters will not Excommunicate without the peoples conſent; you ſhall have liberty [firſt asking leave of the Miniſter, who is the Ruler, and Mouth of the Congregation] to propound any queſtion ſoberly, and gravely, which you would have cleared, before you manifeſt your conſent, if there be any thing darke to you, that ſo you may clearly obey them [for I hope you doe not looke to be equall with Officers in this Act] and I hope this is more then ever you ſaw practiſed in old times. Now that the Miniſters will not Act againſt the people [I ſuppoſe they meane the Body of the People, for if they meane, unleſſe all the people conſent, I would not conſent to the Presbyteriall Miniſters in this, that ſome few particular perſons, guilty it may be themſelves in ſome degree, ſhall obſtruct the ſentence, when the ſounder and major part of the Church conſents] heare their owne words.

In the great Cenſure of Excommunication, Lond. vindic. p. 25we ſay, That it ought not to be executed againſt the conſent of that particular Congregation, to which the party to be Excommunicated belongs; The fifth Propoſ.this is full.

The fifth Propoſall; We would have the liberty to Propheſie, as 1 Cor. 14, &c.

A. What doe you meane by Propheſying, or Prophets? If you meane ſuch Prophets as we finde in 1 Cor. 14. & 12. &c. you have two things to prove:

1 That theſe were Prophets in no Office.

2 Rutherf. Div. right, presbyt. p. 271. Gilleſp. Miſ. c. 5That the gift of Propheſying there mentioned was ordinary, and perpetuall; of the Presbyteriall Divines you have two men [there may be more for ought I know] to grapple with, that have ſtrongly debated this queſtion, and have anſwered all that is brought. Of the Congregationall Divines I finde two men of no ſmall worth, who though in ſome extraordinary p. 85caſe in places where Miniſters are not to be had, if there be any able Chriſtian fit to ſpeake, they would grant ſuch a liberty in a regular way; but for the places you bring to prove that it is an Ordinance of Chriſt for private members to propheſie, Keys 20.they oppoſe this: Mr. Cotton ſaith, That place 1 Cor. Reſp. ad Apol. p. 125.14.31. doth not ſpeake of ordinary private members, but of men furniſhed with extraordinary gifts, he proves it afterward. Mr. Norton ſaith, Propheſie, concerning which Paul ſpeaks, 1 Cor. 14. is not to be underſtood of any ordinary and perpetuall gift whatever, much leſſe of an ordinary and perpetuall gift of private brethren, and that he proves.

I intend not to lanch forth Into this Controverſie, for others have anſwered all thoſe arguments that are brought; but let me ſay this, When I conſidered theſe places, 1 Cor. 12.28. God hath ſet ſome in the Church, firſt Apoſtles, ſecondarily Prophets, thirdly Teachers. The 29. verſe, Are all Apoſtles? are all Prophets? are all Teachers? In the ſame order he reckons them. So Epheſ. 4.11. He gave ſome Apoſtles, ſome Prophets, &c. So Act. 13. 1. There was in the Church at Antioch certaine Prophets and Teachers, as Barnabas, &c. Prophets have ever their place next Apoſtles, and are ranked before Teachers; theſe texts are to me ſtrong proofes, that theſe Prophets were no ſuch private men as ours, nor their gifts ordinary; thoſe that would be ſuch muſt needs take place of their officers, you are before them, for theſe Prophets are alwayes placed before ordinary officers. That 1 Cor. 13.2. and 14. v. 22.30. theſe places wel conſidered will prove it was no ordinary gift.

But I would leave that way of arguing? and would argue againſt it from what I have obſerved about it.

1. It is needleſſe, what need is there of it? I have obſerved that the ordinary time when theſe Prophets goe to worke, is after the Miniſters have done preaching: what need is there of theſe men now to goe to Propheſying? why doe they not goe home and meditate upon the Sermons they have heard, and call them over in their families? but (for ſooth) now the brethren muſt goe to Propheſie.

2. It is not onelyonly needleſſe, but it is dangerous, Satan hath a deſigne in it.

Firſt, to undermine the power of the word preached, theſe perſons who have heard two Sermons before, run now to Propheſying, p. 86where is the word the people heard before? Tortul. hath an obſervation of the hereticks then, Nec ſuis praeſidibus reverentiam noverunt & hoc eſt quod. ſchiſmata apud hereticos fere non ſunt; quia cum ſint, non apparent ſchiſmata. Praeſcrip. adv Hae…t. This is very true of theſe kinde of people, ſo far as I have obſerved among moſt of them.this fine thing hath put out that.

Secondly, his deſigne is to blaſt the Miniſters, for I have obſerved, Miniſters, nor their preaching is in any requeſt with this generation, and the people are more taken with their propheſying, being a pretty new conceit, then they are with their officers preaching; be it never ſo ſolid.

A neare friend of mine (yet living) a Divine well knowne travelling into Germany, coming home in Holland he went to heare Mr. Ainſworth, who preached a very ſtrong Sermon (the perſon was able to judge) while Mr. Ainſworth was preaching, my friend obſerved the carriage of his members, it was, he thought, not becoming the Ordinance (I will not write all he told me, left I ſhould be thought to write out of malice) very dull and dead that was the faireſt; when Mr. Ainſworth had done, they now were to propheſie; my friend ſaid he obſerved, that thoſe, who ſate ſo dully and unreverently, while their Paſtor was preaching very excellently, now their turne came to propheſie, roſe up, and were ſo perke and lively, that he could but note their carriage. The word preached by officers, though never ſo able, doth little good, where this trade is driven.

3. I have obſerved, order with peace and unity, is ſeldome or never kept, where theſe perſons flouriſh: one thinkes his parts are as good as his brothers; this man he carps, and findes fault with his brothers doctrine; then come differences in, and heart-burnings; this man would be thought to be the chiefe, and moſt called upon to exerciſe, another likes not that, jangling, diſcord, breaches, I have knowne to be the fruit of this good work.

4. I have rarely knowne any of theſe perſons that were humble men: the bones of pride, and ſelfe-conceitedneſſe have ſtucke out ſhamefully in the chiefe of thoſe, whom I have knowne; what others are, whom I have not knowne, I cannot tell, but the moſt gracious, ſavoury, humble perſons that I have knowne, though as able as thoſe who are ſo forward, yet they cannot be brought to this practice, but content themſelves in improving what talents they have otherwiſe.

5. I doe not finde private men to be ſo able, as theſe ſuppoſe themſelves to be; ſome particular perſons, Chriſtians of good p. 87experience, and ripe underſtandings, and ſome that are ſchollars may be able to ſpeake to ſome points very well; but moſt what our Prophets deliver, either vile errours, as I have knowne, or elſe wrong the Scriptures very groſly many times: This man doth uſe to propheſie much, this is commendable in him that he is adverſe to other errours. I have known other Chriſtians beſides him, very eminent and ſound yet give groſſe interpretations of plaine Scripture.One of late was handling that Text of Cornelius, Act. 10. that he was a devout man, prayed, gave almes, &c. he caſt this gloſſe upon it, that Cornelius was but as our devout Papiſts, that uſe alſo to pray, and give almes; this is ſtrange that Cornelius was no other then ſuch a one, doth the Scripture ſet ſuch commendations upon ſuch a perſon? I doubt the man did not well know what it was to be devaut in Scripture account; the next words, fearing God, might have helped him to underſtand what manner of one he was. Being at London within leſſe then a yeare, I heard there was a meeting of Chriſtians, and the brethren were to propheſie, and it ſeems it was their manner to ſpeak ex tempore after the firſt had ſpoken; I ſuppoſe they would imitate that text, 1 Cor. 14.30. If any thing be revealed to another that ſitteth by, &c. I had no great ſtomacke to goe, yet I thought I would go hear, ſuppoſing that theſe perſons who cry up propheſying, had ſomething more excellent then other Miniſters, eſpecially being ſuch adverſaries to Black-coats: The text was 1 Theſ. 5. Quench not the Spirit; the next words, Deſpiſe not propheſying, were brought in be ſure, and charged home, that people ſhould obſerve that, as one way of quenching the Spirit, I beleeve they ſpake ex tempore: Learning, and Ordination they were cryed downe; the glorious new lights brought in by the illiterate men were cryed up; but ſuch a meſſe I had, that ſhould our poore Country Black-coats propheſie no better, we ſhould teach our people to deſpiſe propheſying.

Theſe things I have obſerved in this new invented Ordinance: the ſumme is, when you bring us the men that are qualified for ſuch a worke (ſuch as that worthy and honourable man Mr. Winthrop, who was a ſolid man, a good ſchollar, and naturall Philoſopher, fitted to ſpeake excellently, and did ſometimes, before Mr. Cotton went over to New England, when the officers deſired him, but I never heard whether he did, after Mr. Cotton came) and can prove thoſe texts to be meant of ordinary gifts, and the Prophets to be perſons out of office, then we ſhall give you leave to Propheſie, but not after other Sermons preached by your officers.

p. 88The laſt propoſall is this, The laſt propoſall.Wee would have liberty of Conſcience.

Anſw. Iren. p. 30.Mr. Burroughs ſaith, The Devill uſes to take ſanctuary in conſcience, hoping there men will be tender; but enquiry is to be made, whether he be indeed got in there, or in ſome other roome of the ſoule. What that worthy man hath ſpoken to this point, I refer the Reader to Chap. 6. of his Irenicum.

Becauſe conſcience is ſo often pleaded, and made the Aſylum for every opinioniſt, let us ſearch when a man may be judged by Chriſtian rules to be ſwayed by conſcience.

Firſt, I would looke that ſuch a man be one, that according to the beſt obſervation that can be made of him, hath a renewed conſcience: I muſt finde him to be uniforme, elſe I weigh not what he ſaith about his conſcience. There will be infirmities, but then they are but infirmities, and thoſe truly lamented.

Though a man have a renewed conſcience, Poſito abſtracto & concreto non statim ponitur modus agendi.yet I will not ſay that a true renewed conſcience is the cauſe why he maintaines ſuch an opinion, he may not be rightly conſcientious in that.

Secondly, ſuch a one is ready to give an account of his conſcience if you call him to it, if he will not give me a reaſon what moves his conſcience, I regard him no more: Conſcience is but a Deputy, it cannot make Lawes, but they are made before.

Thirdly, ſuch a man hath uſed all means, the beſt means he can, to find out Gods mind, prayer, reading, conferring with the ableſt Saints, and ſuch as have moſt skill to guide; yea, prayer and faſting, any way to finde out the truth his conſcience is troubled about: If he hath not uſed the beſt, and all means, I weigh not his plea of conſcience.

Fourthly, if after ſearching he cannot yet come to ſee what the ſtreame of holy and learned men doe hold and practiſe, but muſt differ from them, it will be a trouble and griefe to his ſpirit, that he ſhould differ from them, fearing leſt God ſhould hide it from him, ſeeing others how holy and able they are, and therefore thinking they may know more of Gods minde, then he doth.

Fifthly, ſuch a man will walke very humbly and reſpectively towards thoſe men, from whom he differs, being he knowes p. 89ſo holy and able, let us heare Mr. Burroughs ſpeake: Expoſit. Hoſ. c. 5. ver. 5. p. 395.Hos 5:5But you will ſay, every man pleads conſcience; how ſhall we know whether it be the ſtoutneſſe of his heart, or the tenderneſſe of his conſcience? Thus, if this man behaveth himſelfe humbly, and the rather humbly in all other things, becauſe he cannot ſee what his Brother doth in ſuch and ſuch particulars, and ſo is in danger to be an offence to his Brother, and therefore his ſoule is humbled, this is a good witneſſe that it is meere conſcience, and not ſtoutneſſe that makes him differ: But now, if his behaviour be high, and proud, when he differeth from his brother, he doth not take it to be an affliction to him, that he cannot ſee what his brother doth, but cenſureth him, and thinkes that it is either through his weakneſſe, or through his wilfulneſſe that he will not ſee, and ſo carries himſelfe high, and proudly before his brother, this witneſſeth to his face that it is ſtubbornneſſe, and ſingularity. Nay, then Mr. Burroughs, you have ſcarce left ten conſcientious Separatiſts in England, the former part of this I have not ſeen in any, the latter I have ſeen enough.

6 A man truly conſcientious, &c. in thoſe points where he doth agree with other learned and holy men, will there cleave cloſe to them, in oppoſing alſo all other points which he judgeth to be falſe; he will not be a ſlye enemy, or ſcoffer of ſuch, and a conniver at, and a favourer of other Sects and Opinions, which his heart tells him are not ſound, or at leaſt he doubts much of them.

Now the grounds of all theſe ſeverall heads in the triall of him, who differs purely out of conſcience, are theſe:

1. Becauſe ſuch a conſcience in the very formall notion of it carrieth this, viz. this mans heart is awed, and carried away with the Majeſty, and Authority of God and his Truth; it argueth much grace, if one takes it in the true notion, then I am ſure ſuch a heart will doe all theſe things.

2 Such a man is awed with all truths, Epheſ. 4.3. Phil. 2.2. 1 Cor. 1.10Eph 4:3Phil 2:21 Cor 1:10and therefore the command of unity, to be all of one minde, to ſpeake the ſame things; theſe have ſuch a power on his ſpirit, as it puts him upon all theſe.

3 Such a man conſiders that to be an offence to other godly Chriſtians, from whom he differs, is a thing that he had need take heed of; alſo a feare of weakning the worke of God in the place where he lives.

4 Such a one knowes the vileneſſe of his owne heart, and is prying into his own weakneſſes, others he can ſee more holy and p. 90able then himſelfe, and hence he feares himſelfe, and conceives ſuch men, being ſo holy and neare to God, I feare he may reveale that to them, which he conceals from me.

Now then, if you can bring us men who expreſſe all theſe, and walke truly by theſe rules, you ſhall not need to goe to the State, to get an Act for Toleration of tender conſciences, for I doubt not but Churches will be very tender of ſuch; God ſeldome leaves theſe to drink in any vile errour, if for a time they be miſ-lead, he will diſcover his minde to them ere long, I am aſſured. But alas, how farre are our people from theſe things? I doe not rehearſe them over againe, but either let theſe be diſproved to be no rules to judge by, or if they be, there are not ten (as I ſaid) of ſuch ſcarce to be found in England, who ſeparate from the Miniſtry, and Churches, and have betaken themſelves to their private houſes; yea, if we goe to our Congregationall Churches, and examine theſe, who plead for Liberty of Conſcience, we ſhall hardly finde theſe Rules obſerved. The ſumme is, you ſee, if indeed you be right conſcientious men, and lead by a pure Conſcience in the points wherein you differ, you ſhall have that liberty that Chriſt would have allowed you, and none will Domineere over your Conſciences.

I know of nothing more can be alledged, but I thinke I have taken in all that is brought againſt the Miniſtry, and Churches. It may be, ſome would be apt to caſt in this, That the Ministers are no friends to the State, ergo, &c.

I ſhall not ſtay to give any anſwer to this more then thus:

1 The Separatiſts were, before this Government was erected, to be ſure the leaven of all was layed, if not all actually ſeparated.

2 Where there are Miniſters, who are friends to the State, it is all one, for they ſeparate for all that.

3 Matters of State differ from the Church matters, and they were alſo very intricate and darke, eſpecially as ſome conceive, the Covenant and Proteſtation having been taken before, therefore in intricate things more time ſhould have been given, till you had ſeene God tying a knot upon things.

4 I know that many Miniſters had not hung off ſo from the State, but that they ſaw ſuch Separatiſts to be wincked at, they thought too much.

p. 91Obj. But you will ſay, Grant all this, that their grounds are inſufficient, why cannot you goe on in the worke of Reformation, ſet up Diſcipline, &c. and let theſe alone? how doe theſe hinder your worke from going on comfortably?

Anſ. If their grounds be inſufficient, Schiſme was eſteemed a great evill in the Apoſtles times: thoſe little matters in the Church of Corinth not comparable to ours, how doth the Apoſtle ſpeak againſt them? ſo in the Ages after, as may be ſeene in Auguſt. contra Permeni: &c. Irenae ſaith, Nulla ab eis tanta fieri poteſt correptio, quanta eſt Schiſmitis pernicies, l. 4. c. 26. So our Divines of late againſt the Papiſts, to prove they were not guilty of Schiſme, have laboured ſtrongly, but outs doe but phanſie grounds, and make a tuſh at Schiſme.then why doe they not come backe againe to the Churches from which they have departed? but before I give the anſwer, let theſe things be obſerved.

1 Few of theſe, who have any true good in them, but muſt and have acknowledged they have received it from the Miniſters, yea, in thoſe times, when there was much more corruption in the Churches then now.

2 Since they have left their Miniſters they have got nothing; many loſt the ſavour once they had, and ſome their comforts that were true, and ſome of theſe I know have come home againe; generally they run out of one errour into another, that is their thriving.

3 I never heard of one true Convert that was ever brought home to God amongſt them all; indeed the Principles they maintaine, will not ſtand with ſound converſion; for no Law muſt be to awaken men, and ſhew them their vile condition naturally, worke of faith is eaſie; teach no duty, but all Chriſt, [as if men could truly teach Chriſt, and no duty] theſe things ſpeake enough againſt them.

But I anſwer further, If the Claſſicall and Congregationall men would but joyne together [as they may if they will] and ſet upon that worke, they might doe ſomething, notwithſtanding theſe perſons, but yet they cannot comfortably hold ſo long as theſe are tolerated.

Queſt. Why, what harme have theſe done, or will they doe?

Anſ. I ſhall tell you, under ſeverall particulars.

1 They have much weakned the hands of the Miniſtry in the worke, they were once the joy of their Miniſters, their Crown, and had they held cloſe to them ſtill, holding up their old Principles, and walking reverently, they had very much comforted their hearts, and ſtrengthened their hands, now they p. 92came to the worke of Reformation; they could in time of Perſecution, when Ceremonies, and ſuch traſh abounded, cleave to them, and to thoſe, who were ſilenced, they were a comfort; but now thoſe who ſhould have joyned with their Miniſters, and carried on the worke with joynt prayers, they are gone. Cyprian compares the unity of the Church, De unitâ Eccleſ. 1 Kings, 11.30.to Chriſts Garment which had no ſeame, nor was divided; Schiſme he compares to the Garment which Abijah rent in twelve peeces, that was not good for Salomons houſe, how did it weaken the Nation? thus have theſe rendings weakned our Churches exceedingly: Vis unita fortior.

2 They are now turned the greateſt Perſecutors the Miniſters have, for tongue perſecution it is wheeled about, and reſides in this Generation: Puritans, Preciſians, were the old termes, but now the termes are, Baals-Prieſts, anti-chriſtians, Prieſts, and Black-coates are the ſobereſt termes, beſides other jeeres and ſcoffes; nay yet worſe, many of theſe would have the Miniſters utterly rooted up [we heard of a Petition drawne up by ſome of them to be preſented to the houſe for that end] they have threatned us what they would doe, and I doubt not, if the State would give them their wills, this ſhould be their firſt vote, Down with the Miniſtry; ſo that all the old Perſecutors were not comparable to theſe, they would have ſome downe, but honour the calling, theſe would cut downe all.

3 They are the Nurſeries of all Errous and Hereſies; where is there one ſociety that is not tainted? who can tell how groſſe they are [though we know many groſſe enough] for they meet in private houſes, who can tell what they vent there? but if they get into Pulpits, then they will vent ſomething, and thence we may gueſſe of the reſt; ſome of them have ſpoken a gainſt the Scriptures, yet ſome againe would have the Apocrypha to be Canonicall; as a company of Anabaptiſts ſpent the after-noon of a Lords day, to prove the Apocrypha to be ſo; the London Miniſters have ſet downe ſome bad enough in their Vindication, Mr. Edwards alſo [only he ſhould not have jumbled all Independents together, as if they did favour ſuch vile Opinions, he ſhould have ſpared ſome] now if we have ſuch Nurſeries among our Churches, we ſhall finde it a difficult worke to keep our Churches cleare: ſome of theſe curſed ſeeds will be blowne into the Gardens.

p. 934 They cauſe Church-Members to walke irregularly: if any doe not walke as they ſhould, or have drunke in any poyſon, if now the Brethren firſt, and then the Officers come to deale with them, they care for no body. If they be of any number to make a Society, that they can meet together, then they will rend away, and ſo meet together; but if not ſo many (if but one) yet they know where there is a Society of Separatiſts, who wil take them in; and hence, what care they for all Officers and Churches? But have you experience of this you will ſay? Yes that I have, I could inſtance quickly in more then one Church. Hence I have heard Congregationall Miniſters ſay, it was but a vaine thing to goe about to gather a Church in a Town where the Separation was, or if it were neere, neither have they gathered any.

5 They doe labour to draw away the hearts of our Members from us; it hath been the language of ſome to my people, You muſt not beleeve the Black-coats. Another time preaching about familie duties, as it lay in my Catechiſe in order, one of them would needs know of one of my people, what I had to doe to preach ſuch things, I muſt teach Chriſt; ſo none ſhall finde any ſetling who attend upon Miniſters; but bleſſed be God, there be many who can tell them its falſe, and I pray God keep me from their ſetling.

6 They have ſpoyled many hopefull young Plants, perſons newly awakened, who have given ſome hopes; they have come in, and [like the ſpirits at London] ſtolne them away; this bleſſed Burroughs complained of, whoſe Miniſtry in the beginning of theſe troubles worked excellently, and hoped for a fine crop, but this Generation got away thoſe young ones, Cap. 5. v. 7. p. 431.as they ſaw them moved, and leavened them with their errours; thus this man loſt many of his hopefull Plants; yea, I finde ſomething in his Expoſition upon Hoſea, where though he doth not expreſſe his owne particular trouble concerning this [for what I mention, was his ſpeech to ſome friends, I could ſet it downe larger then I have done] yet there is the thing, I know no ſuch dreadfull argument of Gods diſpleaſure againſt this Nation [theſe are weighty words, yea, he repeates it over againe at the end of the ſame Paragraph] as this, that as ſoone as young ones begin to know Jeſus Chriſt, there are preſently corrupt errours infuſed into them, under the notion of honouring Chriſt and free grace, &c.

p. 94For my owne ſelfe I am but weake, and God hath not honoured me in that kind, ſo as others of his Servants, yet I have known where I have been beſtowing paines, and have had ſome hopes, within a fortnight that an apparent change hath beene diſcerned: Some of this generation have come to draw them away into their Societies; telling them they ſhall never bee ſettled if they attend upon Miniſters.

If theſe things be ſeriouſly conſidered, you may eaſily judge how comfortably our worke will goe on, while theſe are tolerated amongſt us; this is poore comfort for Miniſters to goe about Church-worke, when as if their members will prove wanton, if their officers come to deale with them, and ſend for them, they ſhall ſcorne to come at them, and ſend them baſe letters abuſing their officers (I could ſet downe in the margent where ſuch things have been acted, but I forbeare) this is nothing, ſo long as the Separatiſts, the enemies of the Miniſtry, are tolerated, for they can reſort to them, yea, if all the members of Congregationall Churches, as well as of Presbyterian Churches, will ſeparate from their Officers, and goe into their private houſes, they may if they will, if they doe but meet together and exerciſe their gifts, it is ſufficient. So that though Chriſt hath appointed the ſtanding ordinance of the Miniſtry, and left the example how theſe ſhall bee orderly called, yet here is the foundation laid to deſtroy that Ordinance, and bring in nothing but confuſion; Chriſt was faithfull in his houſe as a Sonne, and ordered all things in that houſe, he hath uſed his Miniſters hitherto to bring home thoſe that he hath elected and purchaſed, he will have his houſe upon the Mountaines, but now we are come to this point not to care whether we have Ordinances or no, officers or no, what comfort then can we have in going about this work of reforming our Churches?

But further if it be well obſerved, theſe people are no ſuch friends to the State, though they are looked upon as the onelyonly friends the State hath; it will appeare if we conſider them in a morall or politicall reſpect.

Firſt, for the morall reſpect, the ſtrength of a Chriſtian ſtate lies, in having Chriſt on their ſide, and I am ſure the ſtrength of our State lyes there; now is that a way to keepe Chriſt on our ſide, to tolerate thoſe who ſeeke to undermine p. 95that whereby he is knowne in the world? take away Ordinances, and the Miniſters who are appointed by him to diſpenſe theſe Ordinances, where ſhall we know Chriſt? but theſe labour to doe this. Can it be for their ſafety to tolerate ſuch, that hinder his viſible Kingdome from being ſet up, (at leaſt with poore comfort?) what is the reaſon that all this while there is no Diſcipline ſet up? why are we in ſuch a ſhattered broken condition? no man hath any minde to ſtirre; our obſtructions are not from the Drunkards, Whoremongers, prophane ſwearers, &c. chiefly theſe carry ſo much conviction in their owne conſciences, that they dare not much appeare; but theſe Schiſmes and Errors tolerated have been our obſtructions: If it ſhal pleaſe the State but to put forth ſome power to heal theſe (not that I would have all errors knockt down with club-law) and but ſtand to the Miniſtry, I hope we ſhall ſee the Churches of England in another poſture, and things ſo carried, that no man, who walks by a pure conſcience, ſhall be juſtly offended; for as for the Claſſicall and Congregationall Miniſters, they are come ſo near, that I beleeve there will be no difference between them. Thoſe who hinder Chriſts Kingdome, cannot be true friends to a Chriſtian civill State. If any ſhall object, the State hath proſpered ſince theſe Schiſmes, and Errors have had their liberty, therefore God doth witneſſe for them: I ſhould ſay there is little Divinity in this kind of arguing, viz. to argue from Providence, to the maintaining of things croſſe to the word of God: beſides here is fallacia non cauſae pro cauſâ; For next to Gods own free & ſoveraign pleaſure, which was the main cauſe, the inſtrumental cauſe of the proſpering of Army, &c. muſt be referred to the many precious Saints of God, Miniſters and others, who are men reſolute for Chriſts Ordinances, and Officers; men who ſtand to their old Principles, abhorring theſe Errors and Schiſmes; who very much fearing, leaſt if the Scottiſh party prevailed in this way, there would be little liberty for the ſound and moderate Presbyteriall men, as well as Congregationall, and therefore they lay in hard with God, by faſting, and Prayer, for the diſappointing of the Scottiſh deſignes: and ſurely Chriſt hath more reſpect to his owne people, who are tender of his Ordinances, Truths, and Officers, and long to ſee him ſet up in all his Ordinances before they dye, rather then to ſuch, as make light of all the former. Few of theſe Separatiſts p. 96trouble faſting and prayer very much, they are ſo full of joy; they caſt off thoſe fleſh-afflicting Ordinances.

I would have none to miſtake me, as if I were an enemy to the Church of Scotland. No verily, I doe much honour divers of the Miniſters, and the Church of God is much bound to bleſſe God for their labours; both of former times, Rollocke &c. and alſo in theſe latter daies; I conceive that man is either proud, or ignorant, or erroneous, who ſhall read Mr. Rutherford againſt the Jeſuits, and Arminians, and doth not bleſſe God for him. Yea, the peeces that he, and Mr. Gilleſpie have writ concerning the controverſies of theſe times, for their learning, and ſweetneſſe of ſpirit in them, who can but bleſſe God for them, yea, though in ſome places croſſe to our Congregationall men? though they are condemned and ſleighted here, yet they are reverenced, and highly eſteemed amongſt the worthies in New England.

Yea, I adde further, I wiſh from my heart, that the Diſcipline of the Church of Scotland, as I finde it ſet downe in Mr. Rutherford, and others, were ſet up in England, though in ſome points a little croſſe to Congregationall principles; and yet lay all together, what I finde in Mr. Gilleſpie, I am ſo ſatisfied that I know men of moderate ſpirits in the Congregationall way, may be borne with, and live ſweetly with them. What the practices of the people in Scotland are, I know not [I am ſure they have not worſe hearts then mine] they are not their Practices, but their ſoundneſſe in Opinion, and Diſcipline I deſire, they muſt be honoured for their purity in Worſhip, againſt humane mixtures, and for their ſoundneſſe in the faith.

2 In a politicall reſpect they cannot be judged true friends to the State.

This appeares, Firſt, From what we have obſerved already among them; in that time, when the Levelling party ſtirred, how many of theſe did ſtrike in with that party, is well known here in the Country, and other great Townes, by drawing up Petitions [onelyonly they were interrupted in their worke] ſome again ſpeaking moſt baſely of the Parliament, they could match the old Royaliſts in their language; ſuch, I ſay, as are now, and then were tolerated; and I doubt if that party moves againe, we ſhall ſee what faithfull Subjects theſe are, though now they are tolerated as friends.

Secondly, The tolerating of theſe keep other men of great holineſſe, learning, and abilities from cordiall cloſing with the State; the Covenant to be ſure, is expreſly againſt Schiſme, and Hereſie. I have p. 97heard leading men ſay, if there were a good Ariſtocracy ſet up in the Nation, ſo that we might have true Patriots for the Nation; and if they would take ſome order with theſe Schiſmes, and Errors, ſo that the Ordinances and Government of Chriſt might be ſet up, indeed they could ſubmit very wel, if God ſhews it to be his mind to lay by Monarchy: Now it would be more honour and ſafety for a State, to have ſuch men cloſe with them, rather then ſuch as theſe are; I have heard this from ſuch, as are leading men before the Worceſter fight, which I adde becauſe it may be thought, now they would do it, now they ſee no other hopes.

I ſhall wind up this Diſcourſe againſt our Separatiſts [many of which, I am ſure, have before owned the Miniſters; yea, and received Baptiſme and the Lords Supper at their hands] by propounding a few Queſtions unto them.

1. Queſt. Queſtions propounded to the SeparatiſtsHave you any thing againſt your Miniſters in reſpect of their converſations [if they be ſcandalous in their lives, you have a way to help your ſelves] do they not walke in ſome meaſure as becometh Chriſtians?

2 Is not their Miniſtry wholeſome? doe they not preach ſoundly, converting, and edifying truths? though all have not the ſame gifts.

3 If you can charge them with either of theſe, have you with that reſpect, which becomes their places, dealt with them, and told them of ſuch faults? have you told them once and againe, yet they have refuſed to heare you, while you have patiently waited? you muſt do ſo towards a private brother, before you part, much more with a Miniſter.

4 Have you called in other Miniſters to hear the Caſe, and to judge in it? or are you only your own judges?

5 Doe they mixe any thing in the Worſhip of God, ſo as you cannot joyn with them in the worſhip without ſinne? and have you dealt with them as before?

6 If there be ſome thing which you would have received or done, have you given them convincing Arguments to prove it ought to be?

7 Was the thing you deſired Tanti, of ſo great conſideration, that the word wil clearly bear you out for ſeparating, becauſe you could not enjoy what you would have?

8 Might not meekneſſe of ſpirit waiting a while have won your Miniſters to a yeelding in ſome degree to what you deſired?

p. 989. Was there no Church in the Towne before you ſeparated, and entred into a Covenant together? (this I adde becauſe ſome of theſe call themſelves The Church) and are there no viſible Saints in the Towne but your ſelves?

10. When you did ſeparate, whoſe counſell had you? what Churches joyned with you in the act, and alſo were preſent when you did joyne together, to heare your Confeſſion of Faith, whether you were ſound in the Faith or no?

I heartily wiſh they would give in Anſwers to theſe Queſtions according to the word clearly, I thinke they will ſee themſelves ſnared. Let us in few words heare what others ſay concerning ſeparation.

Mr. Hooker, Survey Chu. diſ. in Pref.that eminent man of God ſaith, The faithfull Congregations in England are true Churches, and therefore it is ſinfull to ſeparate from them, as no Churches.

Mr. Norton, Reſp. ad Apollon. p. 156. &c.another Congregational man, acute and holy, hath written upon this ſubject excellently: If the Separatiſts doe underſtand the Latine tongue, they ſhall finde their practiſes overthrowne and condemned, Rejicimus Separatiſtas non diſtinguentes inter eccleſiam, & impuritates eccleſiae, Grave crimen ſchiſmatis. I wiſh we had a few of theſe Mr. Nortons in England, though he be a man who ſtands much for the peoples liberty, yet he ſo ordereth their liberty, that our Miniſters would be glad if they had their Churches governed, as is the Church whereof himſelfe, together with Mr. Na. Rogers, are officers; theſe are Congregationall men. De ſchiſmate.I will not rehearſe what I finde in Camero, becauſe he wrote before theſe times, and will be reckoned for a Presbyterian; foure grounds he gives for ſeparation, none of which I am ſure our Separatiſts can alleadge, 1. Grievous and intolerable perſecution. 2. When the Church is Heretical. 3. When Idolatry is ſet up. 4. When the Church is the ſeat of Antichriſt. I ſhall conclude with a ſpeech of his, Ʋt nihil aequè arguit ingenium ſpiritus Chriſti, ac ſtudium conſervandae ſocietatis & unionis, in quo charitas elucet; ſic etiam nullum eſt evidentius argumentum pravitatis ingenii humani (unde & inter carnis opera contentienes nominantur) quàm tumultuandi & rixandi ſtudium.

Object. But you have ſpoken againſt godly men all this while.

Anſ. Not againſt their godlineſſe one word, their ſchiſme & errors only I have oppoſed. But I know not what new Divinity we have got up in theſe dayes, that if they be godly men that drinke in p. 99errours, or practiſe inordinately; Oh, take heed how you ſpeake, they are godly men; there may be an unwiſe ſpeaking, when men ſhall onelyonly fling out againſt perſons, but confute nothing; but certainly godly men deſerve reproofe as well as others; I hope the being of a godly man doth not make that to be no ſinne in him, which is ſinne in another; but here is the ſubtilty of Satan, and it was all the game he had to play in thoſe times, I muſt now, ſaith he, get into an Angel of light, and I muſt worke among theſe godly profeſſors, This w… Satans plot in Cyprians time as he mentions in his booke De unitä Eccleſ. yet when he ſaw his heatheniſh worſhip would not proſper. but was caſt down, then hee plagued the Church with hereſie and ſchiſme.if I can get ſome of thoſe away, I ſhall get other hollow ones to cleave to them, and make a party: If I now make not a diviſion among them, but that they joyne all with one ſhoulder to ſet up Chriſts Kingdome, and thruſt down mine, it will go hard with my kingdome; now therefore, finde fault with the Ordination of Miniſters, it was Popiſh, ſo ſeparate from them; plead conſcience, that is a tender peece; ſtrive for exact purity (though it be beyond the rule as to viſible Church-fellowſhip,) and thus he hath found out his wayes to damp all the worke of Reformation.

I ſhall ſay no more but this, though ſome of theſe Separatiſts are godly men, yet if godly men ſtand thus as now we do, I beleeve God will not ſpare us, though we be godly men, but he will ere long bring ſuch plagues upon the profeſsing party in England, as ſhall make their hearts ake. For my part, I look on England thus, there have been choice ſervants of God in England, who laboured under the Hierarchicall oppreſſion, many ſtrong cryes have they made for the removall of that burden, and that they might enjoy him in his owne Ordinances, without the mixtures of mens inventions; God hath given us in the anſwer of thoſe prayers, as to the removing of what offended: and now ſaith God, looke you to it, yee Profeſſors, I give the power (which never your Fathers ſaw) into the hands of the Puritanicall **The old ſcoffe.party, let me now ſee how you will improve it for the advancement of my Church and glory; but verily if we improve it no better then now we do, we muſt look that God will not intruſt us with this power long (he doth not uſe to ſtay long before he viſits his Churches) but quickly deprive us of this liberty, and Lord if thou doeſt, thou ſhalt be juſt.

Having done with the Separatiſts, I ſhall now take a ſhort view of the agreements and differences that are with, and between the Claſſical and Congregational Divines, and then p. 100ſhall make bold to preſent an humble requeſt to the Congregational Divines.

1. Do the Claſſical-brethren ſtand for all the Ordinances of Chriſt, as Praying, Preaching, Sacraments, Diſcipline, &c? ſo doe the Congregational-brethren.

2. Do the Claſſical-brethren ſtand for Chriſts officers, Paſtors, ſach ers, Ruling-elders, Deacons, allowing ſuch, and onelyonly ſuch? o doe the Congregational-brethren. They agree in worſhip and in officers.

3. Do the Claſsical-brethren hold to the old doctrines of Faith, Repentanee, holding up the preaching of the Law in its method, to prepare before faith, to guide after faith? ſo do the Congregational-brethren, ſuch as we looke upon as ſound, and eſteem worth the regarding.

4. Do the Claſsical-brethren hold the government of the Church to be Presbyterial? ſo do the Congregational-men, ſuch as are the moſt acute. Beſides what Mr. Norton (none of the loweſt ranke) hath aſſerted in his book which I quoted before, I have heard him ſay, That if the Congregational-government did make the government of the Church democratical, he would give up the cauſe.

For my part, I am but among the weakeſt of Gods Miniſters, but yet I thinke it were no hard matter to prove the government of the Church to be Ariſtocratical: I enter not now into the debating of the queſtion, but this hath much ſtucke with me.

Firſt, there is government in the Church, I meane an externall politie, beſides an internall government of the Spirit, what ever our phantaſtical Spiritualiſts have dreamed of; the Scripture is too plain againſt theſe.

Secondly, then there are governours and governed; this muſt needs be yeelded, elſe government cannot be; for governours there are, none that are ſound in their wits can deny, if they owne the Scriptures.

Thirdly, the affaires then of the Church muſt be ſo carried, that theſe Relates may be kept diſtinct: for that government which deſtroys theſe, by making the Correlate, i. the body governed, to be governour (and ſo there are none governed) cannot poſsibly be, a government ſtanding ſo much with the light of nature. There is no government, if all rule.

p. 101Obj. But how can the government of the Church be Ariſtocraticall, when as you carry things by the ſuffrage of the people?

Anſw. I ſhould deſire alſo to propound theſe queſtions.

Firſt, would you not, if now Churches were conſtituting, give the people this liberty, that if any could bring in good teſtimony againſt a man, who was to bee received into the Church, that they ſhould do it, and if the thing be proved, will not you refuſe to admit ſuch a one?

Secondly, if it now come to caſting out of a member, will not you give liberty to any of the brethren, who ſhall (firſt asking you leave to ſpeak) in a ſober, grave way, propound ſome queſtion to the clearing of the caſe in hand, before the people joyn with you in cutting off a member, I ſay, would not you give this liberty?

Thirdly, will you excommunicate renitente eccleſiâ? your books ſay otherwiſe, and you know what both our Ancient and Moderne Divines have affirmed in this point, and therefore I quote none.

I do not mention election to be given to the people, for that hath nothing of government in it, and this you give fully; but if you grant me the three former heads, then which way you will prove the government to be Ariſtocraticall, the ſame way I ſhall. I have ſpoken to this before, and therefore conclude with Chamies, and others, the government is Ariſtocraticall.

Obj. But how can this be, if the people will not conſent, how are they governed?

Anſw. Put caſe Jonathan had been indeed a great malefactor, and Saul would have had him legally and juſtly put to death, but the people would not conſent to their King, but reſcue Jonathan, ſhall we hence conclude, ergo the government of Iſrael is not Monarchicall? the caſe is the ſame here.

Now I am upon this head, I ſhall deſire to make a little digreſsion, before I proceed to any more heads. Mr. Edwards in a Sermon at Colcheſter laid down this Theſis.

That there was no ſuch tyrannicall government in any Church (unleſſe it were in the Church of Rome) as is in the Independent Churches; he proved it thus, They carry all things by the ſuffrage of the people, and if all doe not conſent, they will cenſure them; how he will prove this? a ſpeciall example, in the Church of Boſton in New England, when p. 102they excommunicated Mrs. Hutchiſon; becauſe her owne ſonne did not joyne in the caſting out of his owne mother, he was likewiſe cenſured; an unnaturall thing, ſaid he, and ſo carried it, that both his owne friends, and other Miniſters, who were ſtrangers, thought he was alſo excommunicated, as they told me when I ſpake with them.

The ſtory doth ſomething concerne the head I am upon, and therefore I make bold to inſert it here. I was a little troubled at the paſſage, knowing well how things were carried, being preſent at that time, and ſo tooke occaſion ſome few weeks after, to give a bare narrative how the thing was carried with ſo much meekneſſe, I am ſure as none could accuſe me. The ſumme is this, When all wayes according to the word had beene tryed with Mrs. Hutchiſon to recall her, but none would prevaile, the queſtion was put to the Church to manifeſt conſent for her excommunication; her ſonne and ſonne-in-law (one more then Mr. Edwards mentioned) ſtood up to put ſome ſtop in the way (had they ſate ſtill, as any body would have expected, though they had ſuſpended their votes, I know not who would have ſpoken one word to them) Mr. Cotton roſe up, and gave them a grave admonition, that though their naturall affection might now worke, for which hee did not blame them, yet he would not have them preferre their mother before Chriſt, nor hinder their mother from that Ordinance, which might bee a meanes to ſave her ſoule; with theſe words they both ſate downe: they never had any other cenſure (if this be a cenſure) and the Church proceeded in her excommunication. Now I appeale unto all, to judge where was the tyranny in this act? yet though I carried this with all mildneſſe, this was the onelyonly cauſe why Mr. Edwards raked up all he could againſt me, and put it into print, even ſuch things as never were in my thoughts. But here you may ſee, they ſtand not upon the ſuffrage of all the people.

Fifthly, doe the Claſſical-men call for Synods? ſo do the Congregational-men, Mr. Cotton, Keyes c. 6. Mr. Norton, Reſpon. ad Apollon. p. 112. &c.

And certainly they are men of ſtrange ſpirits, who deny Synods to be uſefull, and no Ordinance of God: I doubt he did not well conſider what his pen let drop, and left it to poſterity, That he never ſaw any good that came by any Synod, but rather p. 103the contrary. A great Clerke indeed he was, but ſurely the man was in ſome paſſion; I am ſure I have knowne the contrary, much good come by Synods; but ſome of our Independents ſnutch up this ſentence of his, as if it were Apoſtolical. This is the difference, ſay the Congregational-men, the Synod bindes directivè, non juridicè, the Claſsical will have both.

When I obſerve what both ſides ſpeak of Synods, methinks this can be no ſuch matter of difference.

The Claſsical Brethren ſay, Lond. Vind. p. 23All the determinations even of Nationall Synods are to be obeyed no further, then they agree with the word of God; and that a Synod eſt judex judicandus; That Congregations are to examine with the judgment of diſcretion, what is ſent to them from Synods.

Mr. Rutherford ſaith, Peac. plea. p. 322.The Acts of the Aſſembly oblige all the abſents, not preſent in all their members, not becauſe of the Authority of the Church, but becauſe of the matter, which is neceſſary and agreeable to Gods word.

That people may not examine decrees of their Synods according to Gods word: That people may not reaſon or ſpeake in their Synods, Ib. p. 246.we acknowledge no ſuch Synods. This latter needs a little fencing, otherwiſe we ſhould have confuſion enough; our Churches in New England choſe out of every Church, two of the ableſt of the private brethren, and ſent them as their meſſengers, theſe indeed had liberty to ſpeake and propound doubts in the Synod, but it was not left free for any body to ſpeake, that would.

Mr. Gilleſpie ſtates a queſtion; Suppoſe a ſcandalous perſon would come to the Sacrament, Aar. rod. 477, 478.the Miniſter knowing him to be ſo, adviſeth the Elderſhip to joyne with him, and do their duty in keeping this perſon away, it may be they refuſe; Appeale is made to higher Aſſemblies, Claſſis, Synod, &c. they it may be will judge him fit for the Sacrament, this is their ſentence, muſt this Miniſter now obey the ſentence of the Claſsis or Synod? His determination is, That the Miniſter being cleare in his conſcience, and the matter of ſcandal ſufficiently proved, he muſt not doe an unlawfull act in obedience to men, but follow the rule, 1 Tim. 5.22. Keep thy ſelfe pure, his conſcience illuminated by Gods word is a rule to him of his owne perſonal acting, or not acting.

Come to the Congregational-men, Mr. Cotton ſaith, Keys p. 25We dare not p. 104ſay that the power of a Synod reaches no further then the giving connſell, they bind burthens, they bind not onelyonly materially, but formally, from the Authority of the Synod, See more, p. 53, 54.

Neither doe I ſee, that our reverend Divines in their preface to that book do oppoſe Mr. Cotton; for ſay they [in laying down Mr. Cottons judgement] Chriſt hath not furniſhed them only with ability to give Counſell, but with a Miniſteriall power and Authority, to determine, declare, and injoyn ſuch things, as may tend to reducing ſuch Congregations to right order and peace. But is there Authority? it may be my ſhallowneſſe; but for the preſent I doe not call to mind any power inveſted with Authority, but if they injoyne a thing to bee done, and it be refuſed, that Authority will reach further. Authoritas cogit, as is the kind of the Authority, Civill or Eccleſiaſticall.

Bleſſed Burroughs [in anſwering to that which ſome would have, Iren. p. 44.ſcil, that a Synod may formally excommunicate, becauſe by excommunication, they (i.e. Hereticall Churches) are put out of the Kingdome of Chriſt, into the Kingdome of Satan, and this will terrifie] ſaith, conſider whether this be not done before, and that with an authority of Chriſt, by thoſe former ſix things (mentioned in the page before) for Hereticall Congregations, or perſons are judged, and declared in a ſolemn Ordinance, by the Officers of Chriſt gathered together in his name, to be ſuch as have no right to any Church Ordinance, to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Chriſt; now if this judgement be right, are not ſuch perſons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Chriſt, and put under the power of Satan, conſequently?

Certainly, this cannot be a ground of ſuch difference, ſhall Non and Ex make ſuch a ſtir, when Non is as bad as Ex? I ſhould judge my ſelf, I am ſure, to be in as bad a caſe by the one, as the other, though for my part this notion of Catholike-viſible-Church, hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power; I could I ſay yeeld it, and yet not differ from theſe reverend Divines, if they follow home their non-communion cloſe.

Now if you ſay, what doth this helpe againſt Hereticall Congregations, though you have proceeded to Non-communion, they regard it not, but ſtill go on in their Hereſies, and leaven others? to that they wil ſay, what do they care for your excommunication, if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated, they would not care, but go on ſtill. Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it, viz. if a Synod hath declared againſt an Hereticall Congregation, p. 105being pertinacious, and ſo hath proceeded to non-communion, they will call in the Civil power to help, and ſo they have a way to help by their non-communion, and this muſt be the help of them though they be excommunicated.

This Mr. Norton intimates, Reſp, ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marſhal relates, that Zuinglius in a publick diſpute did ſo ſtop the mouthes of the Anabaptiſt; that they appearing to the Magiſtrates unreaſonably obſtinate, were baniſh d the City, Defen. ag. Tomb. 58.Eccleſiae appellant Magiſtratum in cauſis Eccleſiae non ad doctrinam declarandam, vel diſciplinam exequendam, ſed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam, vel diſciplinam ab eccleſiâ applicatam ſanctione Civili confirmandam. The dury which Mr. Cotton ſheweth to lye upon the Civill Magiſtrate inferres as much. As alſo Mr. Burroughs. And thus it was in New England; when the Synod (at which the Civill Power was preſent, as to hear, ſo to keep civill order) had conſuted and condemned the Errors and Hereſies, and ſo was broke up, then a Generall Court was called, which ſoon ſuppreſſed thoſe Hereſies, and brought the Churches to peace again.

If the Civill power would do as much here, we ſhould ſoon ſee our Churches in better order. What Civill Magiſtrates have done in this eaſe before, I need not mention, books are full. Its true, the Churches were, when there was no Civill Power to defend them, but oppoſe them; but we can finde how many Hereſies and Schiſmes they were then troubled with; ſhall the Church be in no better caſe under a Chriſtian Civill Power, Nurſing-Fathers, then at that time?

6 Doe the Claſſicall godly men looke upon their Congregations, having viſible Saints among them, to be true viſible Churches? ſo doe the Congregationall men judge them alſo. I gave inſtance before.

7 Would then the Claſſical brethren, have their members (being ſuch as have right to the Ordinance) to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to ſhew their communion? certainly ſo they ought; but why Congegationall men doe refuſe godly men, members of Claſſicall Churches, not admitting them to the Lords Supper, when they have deſired it, is very ſtrange to me; I wiſh our reverend Brethren would give us ſolid grounds for this practice, for it gives offence, and that juſtly. aaPreface to ſurvey ch. diſ.Mr. Hooker, and bbIren. p. 266.Mr. Burroughs have both ſaid they ſhould be admitted: Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church, where Doctrine and Worſhip is pure alſo, this perſon a member of it, a viſible Saint (it may be a real Saint) and ſhall he be denyed communion?

8 For Claſſes, Pref. ſurv. ch. diſ.the Congregationall men ſay Conſociation of Churches is not onelyonly lawfull, but in ſome caſes neceſſary. So Mr. Hooker. p. 106Mr. Cotton ſpeakes fully to this, Keyes p. 54, 55. weighty matters ſuch as, Election and ordination of Elders, excommunication of an Elder, or any perſon of publike note, the tranſlation of an Elder from one Church to another, it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common conſultation and conſent. I ſuppoſe thus much might have beene obtained of the Claſſical-brethren, that though in caſes of weight, as excommunication, they would not have ſuch an Ordinance carried on by one Miniſter, but have the thing ſeriouſly examined firſt, and debated in a Claſſis, yet when the thing had beene concluded upon, they would leave the execution of the ſentence to the officer, or officers of the Church, where the caſe lyeth. If ſo much might be obtained, I ſhould be very farre from oppoſing a Claſsis, I would not willingly live without one.

I know of no other material point of difference, as for the firſt ſubject of the power of the Keyes, that is but a notion, though its true, much practiſe depends upon it, yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the firſt ſubject, by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes; for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the firſt ſubject, and not the Fraternity, as is apparent in divers places of that booke.

The ſumme is, I wonder at our differnces, well might that worthy Divine ſay in his letter to me from New England, Its the wonderment of this ſide of the world, that you that are godly, and may agree, yet will not! ſurely the cauſe lyeth more in the Will, then any thing elſe. Give me leave therefore I pray, to make my humble requeſt to our Reverend Divines, the Congregational-men, that they would pleaſe to cloſe in with the Claſſical brethren, and not ſuffer theſe groundleſſe differences to trouble the Churches any longer. If you aske, Why doe you make your requeſt to us, are we the cauſe why they are not bealed? I cannot thinke the cauſe lyes onelyonly in the Miniſters; nay I have heard long ſince there had been an agreement among the Miniſters, had not ſome others that live by diviſions, broken it; but whether all Miniſters are of the ſame minde I know not: nay, I have obſerved the ſpirits of ſome Congregational-Miniſters carried with more eagerneſſe againſt the Claſsical-brethren, then è converſo, and I am ſure, if there be any blame among the Miniſters, it is charged moſt upon the Congregational-men, whether juſtly or no, it concernes p. 107you to cleare your ſelves: Beſides, at this time the Civill power moſt ſmiles upon you, and now it is a good time to ſhew you ſeeke the peace and flouriſhing of all Churches, by joyning with your fellow-brethren, and not to be content though your Interest be ſafe, unleſſe the whole may have comfort as well as your ſelves; for you cannot but judge that there are more true viſible Churches, then thoſe which are called Independent Churches, and that there be others that are true Miniſters, beſides the Independent Miniſters; why then ſhould not the comfort of theſe Churches and Miniſters be ſought? which cannot be, unleſſe your ſelves be pleaſed to declare againſt theſe errours and ſchiſmes of the times, and fall in with theſe Miniſters to carry on the worke of Chriſt together. Let mee, I beſeech you, preſent to your view a few things to be conſidered.

Firſt, the Claſſical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you; heare their words, Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121.We doe here manifeſt our willingneſſe te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union; and (ſuch of us as are Miniſters) to preach up and to practiſe a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things, that may conſiſt with the ſundamentals of Religion [what need then any other Toleration?] with the power of godlineſſe, and with that peace, which Chriſt hath eſtabliſhed in his Church; but to make ruptures in the body of Chriſt, and to divide Church from Church, &c. there is no warrant for this out of the word. The page before this, they offer as much as this, and ſpeake ſo Chriſtianly and ingenuouſly, that it muſt needs move any Chriſtian heart that loves the peace and proſperity of the Churches, to meet them halfe way, and not ſuffer any differences more to appeare.

As for that exception they make, the ruptures of Churches, I thinke it to be a very juſt exception; that golden rule hath place here, ut tibi, ſic aliis, would any of us be content to have other Miniſters take from us the beſt of our people that have choſen us before, and owned us for their officers? ſay what you pleaſe, you are men, and I know it would be a ſtrong temptation, when as for want of theſe, alſo their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches.

If you take away the beſt (who are the joy of a Miniſter) take away the worſt alſo. If you live neare a place where there is no Miniſter, and take in ſuch Chriſtians to you as the place affords, p. 108and returne them when the place is furniſhed: or if there be a Miniſter, and but few Chriſtians, ſo that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort, if he and his people will joyne with you they may, none oppoſe this; but when a godly Miniſter hath viſible Saints ſufficient in his Pariſh, to have theſe taken from him, is ſuch a thing which I would not have offered to me, therefore I would not offer the ſame to another. I know where the pinch lyes, on the Miniſters part, Our maintenance ariſeth from the members, &c. but for this the State hath provided an anſwer (and certainly it is a great mercy) reforme you in the place where you live, take none but Scriputre-viſible-Saints to the Sacraments, catechize, and doe what you can to reforme the reſt, the State hath provided for your maintenance, none ſhall keepe it from you, as well as the word gives it you, Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things. Chriſt ſent Paul not to baptize, but to preach the Goſpel, 1 Cor. 1.17. preaching is the ſpending worke, and the chiefe, of this all the Pariſh are partakers, I am ready to diſpenſe the Seales to all viſible Saints, therefore I know no ſcruple why I ſhould not receive from all, ſince all receive from me.

O but your members will not be content with this. I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Claſsicall Church, we ſee the differences are very ſmall; but ſuppoſe the worſt, let then your members remove into the Pariſhes where you live, and this is no offence to any; if they ſay, It will ſomething hinder their eſtate: Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their ſoules, Expoſ. Hoſ. c. 2. v. 1.2. p. 225.Hos 2:1Hos 2:2if they looke upon things very much concerning their ſoul, and will not buy them with ſome abatement of their profit: could this have beene once enjoyed, New England ſufferers had not been there now; Though Pariſhes are not Churches, yet Miniſters care muſt be bounded ſome where. I preſume you are willing to cloſe, ſo that you may not ſin.

I beſeech you firſt, what ſinne is it to let a godly Claſsicall man enjoy his owne members?

Secondly, What ſinne is it to admit a viſible Saint, and member of a Claſsical Church to communion with you?

Thirdly, what ſinne is it to declare againſt the errours and ſchiſmes of the times? you ſee it is the thoughts of the New England Divines, that through our too much connivence at theſe, this inundation of errours is like to deſtroy all. If theſe p. 109three be but yeelded, I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conſcience, and no man will trouble you.

2. A ſecond conſideration is this, you ſee thoſe who call for agreement, they are no babes, they are men, holy, learned, excellently gifted, and the arguments they give for their Claſsical forme of government are not ſlight, but ſuch as deſerve ſtrong heads to anſwer; it may be my ſhallowneſſe, but truly I cannot yet ſee ſome things they plead for to be clearly anſwered, as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-viſible; their arguments for their Presbyterial Church, from the Church of Jeruſalem, Corinth, &c. yet I have read the anſwers with a kinde of prejudice againſt the Claſsical way, being before engaged in the Congregational-way, and uſually then men are apt to make a little ſerve the turne: But I cannot yet be ſatisfied, and that ſuch a Church as is in this ſmall village where I live, ſhould have equall power with the Church of Corinth, and be exempted from all other power, though (which God forbid) we ſhould walke ſcandalouſly, is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve. There ſeemes to be ſomething in that which learned Mr. Hudſon hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34. Let your women keepe ſilence in the Churches. Here are Churches in Corinth, he doth not ſay, Let women, but Let your women (that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth, is a rule for all Churches) thoſe Congregations are called Churches, yet one combined Church of Corinth.

There are other points beſides which I mention not, but certainly the controverſie is not ſo clear as the controverſie againſt Papiſts, Socinians, &c. therefore I ſhould thinke that we had need cloſe the more with theſe men.

A third conſideration is this; unto me it is ſomething, I know not how it takes with others, the ſtrange things that God in his Providence hath ſuffered to fall out in Congregationall Churches, I meane for Diviſions eſpecially, and errours; that charge cannot bee denied of many Congregationall Members what errours they have drunke in; and for Diviſions, they are not ſecret things, but ſuch as the whole Nation knows, inſomuch that I have heard a ſerious Congregationall Miniſter, and an able man ſay, when he hath heard what crackes, and rendings there have been in Congregationall Churches, he thought ſeriouſly whether it were the way of God or no; how p. 110many Congregationall Churches may be reckoned where theſe have been, and if Miniſters doe not let their Members take their owne courſe, even what they will, and drinke in what errours they will, it is hard to keep a Church from rending, Ius Divi. p. 114 that learned Book.England gives ſtrong proofe of this. It is a very unhappy Story that Mr. Edwards relates of the Church at Arnheim, if it be true, I finde it quoted by the London Miniſters: where that Act was done in New England, that Mr. Cawdrey mentions in his Epiſtle to the diſſenting Brethren, I cannot imagine; but that is alſo ſtrange, if true; I ſuppoſe he relates as it was related to him, I know indeed where there is a ſad example of this kinde there alſo. This uſe I make of theſe things, that we had need take another review of Congregationall principles, in reſpect of that power which is given to the Fraternity, and in the meane time to be very tender towards the Claſſicall Brethren, and ſtudy agreement with them.

The fourth, The Claſſicall men are oppoſed in reforming their Churches, as well as the Congregationall men; now for theſe to be oppoſed, not only by the prophane part, whom they keep off from the Lords Snpper, but to be oppoſed alſo by the Congregationall men, that they prove a griefe to them, this is a hard chapter; certainly we had need more cloſe with them, and help to comfort them, rather then grieve them in their worke, they are ſcorned by the profane party, let not us ſcorne them.

5 Theſe Nurſeries of errours [I meane the Separatiſts, who caſt off Orthodox Officers] are as bad enemies to the Congregationall Churches, as they are to the Claſſicall; nay worſer, your Members will quickly drinke in their poyſon, yea, and goe away from you to them, Pag. 119.as experience hath teſtified; therefore it concernes you to joyne with the Claſsicall men againſt them; but by one paſſage I meet with in the London Vindication, it ſeems ſome Congregationall men doe not thinke ſo, for they in their complaint to you thus ſpeake; Are there not ſome of you that chuſe rather to joyne with Anabaptiſts, and Epiſcopall men then with us? and that will give letters dimiſſory to your Members, to depart from you to the Churches of the Anabaptiſts? and at the ſame time deny them to ſuch as deſire them, for to joyne with Churches of our Communion? we charge not theſe things upon you all, but upon ſome, whoſe names we forbeare to mention; this is very ſtrange, but this confirmes what I ſaid before, that the cauſe of our diſ-union is not altogether in the Claſsicall men.

p. 1116 I pray conſider what a fine Game the Devill hath played by this oppoſition between us, hath he not turned our Reformation into a deformation? Hath he not cauſed the building of the Temple to ceaſe? Doe not all things that concerne the Reformation of the Church ſtand at a ſtay? What doe we now? indeed thoſe who are for Congregationall Government, have the opportunity to gather Churches [as they call it] but what becomes of the whole? It was told me when I was in Spaine, [which was the winter before Naſeby Fight] that divers that were in religious Orders that lived there, were got into England; Certainly Jeſuits, or Devils have been here to hold the Congregationall, and Claſſicall Brethren at ſuch a diſtance, that while they have been contending about Government, we are in danger of looſing Ordinances, Truths, Government, and be ſwallowed up with a deluge of Errors, Schiſmes, and Hereſies; Divide & impera, that hath been Satans project.

7 I beſeech you conſider, whether we lye not open to Gods ſtroke: is there not matter of provocation given him, by reaſon of theſe Diviſions (that his worke ſtands at a ſtay) Errours, Schiſmes, Hereſies, and decay of godlineſſe that follows upon theſe, that he ſhould take away the Liberties he hath given us, and make us feele a heavie yoke againe? Surely theſe things will not be long borne. Mr. Caryll hath a ſad ſpeech, Expoſ. on Job, c. 5. ver. 9.God hath begun to doe ſo many marvells amongſt us, that I verily beleeve the worke he is about, will end in a marvell too; and we in the cloſe ſhall be made either a wonder of Mercy, or a wonder of Judgement to all the Nations round about.

We are made indeed a wonder in regard of the ſtrange Opinions, Hereſies, Diviſions, they wonder at us in New England; but till God ſets up his Kingdome in our hearts, Rom. 14.17.Rom 14:17conſiſting in righteouſneſſe, peace, and joyes of the Holy Ghoſt, and ſets up his Kingdome in the Nation, riding in triumph in his Ordinances, converting of ſoules, and battering down the prophaneneſſe of our hearts, ſcattering our Errors and Schiſmes, we ſhall not be a wonder of mercy to other Nations; but if God ſhall be pleaſed to let our hearts feele his inward Kingdome, and our eyes ſee his externall viſible Kingdome after that manner exalted, then Lord, ſome of us care not how ſoone we fall aſleep.

FINIS.

End of the text · Giles Firmin, Separation Examined (1652)