Reasons Against Independent Government of Particular Congregations, Part 3
But before I conclude, I will anſwer five or ſixe Reaſons, that be commonly alledged by them, for their Toleration in this Kingdome.
Reaſon. I.
THis is no more than what is granted to the French, and Dutch, who live amongſt us, and have Churches and Government of their owne way, exempt from the Government eſtabliſhed.
Anſwer. The caſe is quite different, and that will appeare by theſe particulars.
Firſt, Thoſe French and Dutch Proteſtants have nothing, nor deſire nothing, but that which is Originally according to the Church and people they were borne and brought up in, they enjoy nothing as Contra-diſtinct to the Proteſtants of France and Holland, but the Independant men move for that which is Contra-diſtinct to their owne Church and Nation; Yea, and to all reformed Churches.
Secondly, This liberty was granted by our pious Princes in times of perſecution to the Proteſtants, that ſo they might have here the exerciſe of their Religion in their owne tongue, when they could not enjoy it at home, and it hath beene of great uſe upon occaſions in this way ever ſince, for a refuge to the perſecuted Proteſtants, but what is your caſe to this? you may enjoy the Proteſtant Religion in this Land, and that by the Law and Authority of King and Parliament, what colour then, that you ſhould move for an exemption of your Churches?
Thirdly, theſe French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government, and in one way of Diſcipline with the Kingdome, if there be a reformation, which you will not.
Fourthly, Theſe Churches are not in an Independant government, neither doe they hold your Principles of the Church, but be as much againſt them (as we) they doe admit of appeales, and in all buſineſſe of greater moment have Synods.
Fifthly, They being ſtrangers amongſt us of different Nations and Tongues, not having thoſe relations of Kindred and acquaintance with us, but keeping themſelves, for the moſt part, among themſelves, there is not that danger of drawing away the people, nor of cauſing Schiſmes, as from you that are of our Nation, and tongue; neither have they, or doe ever vent principles againſt our Church and Government, (as you doe) but content themſelves with their owne way, they neither can, nor will admit ours to be members of their Congregations, in reſpect our people underſtand not their language, ſo that the people are ſo farre from leaving our Churches, and becomming members of theirs, as that our people cannot ſo much as reſort to their Congregations to heare them Preach, they Preaching in a language the people underſtand not, all which is quite contrary with you.
Sixthly, there is a great reaſon and neceſſity of allowing them Churches and places to Preach, and bee by themſelves, becauſe many of them underſtand not Engliſh at all, and for the benefit of ſtrangers of their Religion who come over, who elſe could not enjoy the publicke exerciſe of their Religion at all, and they may well be allowed ſome Diſcipline among themſelves in reſpect they maintaine al their own poore, not charging the Pariſhes where they live with them: all which will not hold as a ground for Toleration of Independancy: Their meetings by themſelves, are not upon your principles of a Church, or Church government, but becauſe of different language, &c.
Reaſon. II.
VVE ſeeke no more then what is granted us in Holland, and what wee may enjoy there in a Countrey where we be ſtrangers.
1. Anſwer. If your toleration in Holland, be a good ground for a toleration here, that we ſhould doe ſo becauſe Holland doth it, then there ſhould be a Toleration for all Religions amongſt us, as Jewes, Anabaptiſts, &c. And if you would have it ſo, ſpeake out plainely, there are ſome of you have whiſpered it, and often ſpoke of it in private, in the anſwer you give to theſe reaſons. Speake your mind, and if you juſtifie a Toleration of all Religions, I will diſcuſſe that queſtion with you, and take it up againſt you as not fit, neither in Divinity nor policy, as both againſt Rules of Conſcience and Policy.
Secondly, There may be a Toleration of you in Holland, with much more ſafety to the government eſtabliſhed and peace of that Church, then can be here in this Kingdome, the people of that Country not underſtanding your language, having little or no relation to you, nor you to them, of kindred, friendſhip, where as it is quite otherwiſe here.
Thirdly, That people of the Hollanders generally are an induſtrious people minding their buſineſſes, profits, and keeping to what's eſtabliſhed by their Lawes, not troubling their heads ſo much with other points of Religion, but here in England and eſpecially in the City of London, and great Townes, many Profeſſors are more idle and buſie bodies, tatlers alſo, as it is ſaid, 1 Tim. 5. 13. ver. Very wanton alſo in their Wits, affecting novelties in Religion, and liking of points that are not eſtabliſhed nor commonly held.
Fourthly, Holland tolerates you and many others, but it is more upon grounds and neceſſitie of worldly reſpects, becauſe of that benefit of exciſe towards the maintenance of warres which they have from them who live amongſt them, ſo that they are paid well for it, ſo that in this they meaſure things rather Ʋina Mercatoria, than by the rule of Scriptures; and were it not for that and ſuch reſpects which the ſtate of that State hath put them upon, they would never grant tolerations, but there is not the ſame reaſon here in any reſpect, our riches and ſtrength ſtanding in one way of Religion and not in tolerations.
Reaſon. III.
IF wee may not have a toleration and a liberty of erecting ſome congregations among you, this will force us to leave the Kingdome that wee may have the liberty of our conſciences, and if you doe, what cruelty is this.
1. Anſwer. There is no need of a Toleration for you, and yet no need of forcing you to leave the Kingdome that you may enjoy your Conſciences, and that will appeare if you calmely and meekely be content to heare Reaſons and Principles which you your ſelves agree to, as namely, you hold that our Churches be true Churches, our Miniſters true Miniſters, Ordinances of word, Sacraments true, and that you can partake with us in our Congregations in all Ordinances even in comming to the Lords ſupper, provided that ſcandalous and ignorant perſons be kept backe, and ceremonies removed; why then ſhould you deſire to ſet up other Churches, as different from ours? you can have but Word, Prayer, Sacraments, and Diſcipline in your owne, that you may enjoy in ours, is this any good reaſon for you to leave the Kingdome? I pray conſider well, ſome of your Miniſters at firſt comming over ſaid (as I have beene told from good hands) they could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongſt us upon the reformation hoped for, and they could yeild to Presbyteriall government, by Claſſes and Synods, ſo not enjoyned to ſubmit to it, as Jure divino, but ſince they have gotten ſome more hopes (I know not upon what grounds) they are now very hot for a Toleration, and will not heare of growing into one body with us.
Secondly, Seeing our Churches, Miniſters, and Ordinance, be true, for you to erect new, and to withdraw from ſuch Churches (though ſuppoſe they were in ſome things defective and not every way ſo rightly ordered as were to be deſired) I know can never be anſwered to God, eſpecially you having not the power and authority from God to order thoſe Churches otherwiſe, and I deſire you againe and againe to waigh whether you may not live in the Communion of ſuch Churches, where ſome thing may be yet deſired that is not, where it is not in your power to helpe, but that you are bound by the Command of God in ſuch caſes either to leave the Kingdome for that liberty, or elſe being private men in a Land where true Churches, Miniſters, and Ordinances are, to goe and ſet up divided Churches in that Land, both againſt the Lawes of the Land, and to the ſcandall of all the Churches, I beſeech you thinke upon it what is become of Fraterna toleratio, and of giving ſcandall, not to one Brother, but to thouſands of Congregations of Chriſt. And whether nothing wanting in matter of Order, may be Tolerated ſo long as a man is not put upon the practiſe of that which is unlawfull. As for thoſe Browniſts whoſe Principles and Conſciences (though very erroneous) hold that we have no true Church, Miniſtery, Ordinances, but all is Antichriſtian, they have a better warrant to ſet up new Aſſemblies, or to leave the Kingdome to enjoy their way; but as for you to withdraw and ſet up ſeparated aſſemblies upon no greater grounds, or cauſes, can never be juſtified, and I ſhall be ready upon that point to deale with any of you, and for your better ſatisfaction for the preſent, I wiſh the conſcientious and ſober Miniſters to read two pages in Maſter Robinſons Apologie, Chap. 12. De Eccle. Anglic. pag. 86, 87. Wherein he grants that Churches may not be departed from for circumſtantiall corruptions, nor for many inconveniencies, affirming that it is neither Chriſtian prudence nor charity to doe ſo; he ſhewes it is not an intolerable evill (though an evill to be lamented) for evill men to be ſuffered in the Church, nor that Diſcipline as it is called, or that Eccleſiaſticall government inſtituted by Chriſt, is neglected, or violated, but thats it, that the plaine contrary to it ſhould be eſtabliſhed by Law, and ſo he goes on: Now ſuppoſing our reformation, it will be otherwiſe with England then when he writ and the moſt that can be ſaid (ſuppoſing your principles the Truth, (though thats denyed by us) there will be but evill men ſuffered, and not men of the moſt profligate life, and Diſcipline inſtituted willbe but neglected or violated, not that which is quite contrary as eſtabliſhed by Law, take place.
Thirdly, You your ſelves live in, and are members of ſuch Churches, and thinke it unlawfull to forſake them, where, for many yeares together you beare with defects, and want ſome parts of government, and Officers appointed by Chriſt, more materiall then will be in ours, upon a reformation, as namely, without Paſtors, Elders, Widowes, many yeares together, without Sacraments a long time, without cenſures eſpecially unleſſe you allow people to be the inſtruments and exerciſe Excommunication without having Ordination of Officers, without prophecying alſo many yeares; Why can you not beare with ſome defects in our Churches, and be content to waite ſome yeares, till God either give you light to ſee your miſtakes, or elſe till we have more light to perfect what is wanting? You tell us that ſome things may be omitted for a time, as Circumciſion was in the Wilderneſſe, and that affirmatives doe not binde too alwayes, and that exerciſe of Diſcipline may be forborne for a time, when it is evident, it will not be for edification to the Church, but deſtruction; what ſhall hinder then, but that you ought to incorporate into our Aſſemblies, though ſomething yet were to be deſired? there is nothing contrary that will be put upon you (nor quite another thing.)If you may publiquely proteſt againſt ſuch as you know ſhould not be admitted, and declare againſt the Churches faultineſſe in not proceeding againſt them, you may communicate with them, becauſe you have done all you can in this caſe.
Fourthly, You may ſafely be members of our congregations in the reformation of us, and in theſe times, becauſe you may without danger ſhew your diſlike and ſpeake againſt ſcandalous perſons, and againſt the fault of the Church, if they admit ſuch to the Sacrament, which being done, your ſelves grant you may communicate with them, ſo a Letter ſent from Roterdam grants. And I have heard this alledged, as the reaſon why you firſt left our Churches, but that reaſon now ceaſes, ſeeing either ſuch perſons will be wholly kept away, or elſe you may proteſt againſt them (though I muſt tell you, that practiſe you judge your ſelves tyed to, is founded upon a falſe principle) namely that the power of government is given by Chriſt to the body of the Congregation.
Fifthly, There is a medium betweene perſecution (as you terme it) and a publicke Toleration, a middle way betweene not ſuffering men to live in the Land, and the granting them a liberty of ſeparated Aſſemblies, ſo that there is no neceſſity either of leaving the Land, or of enjoying exempt Congregations (for there is a third datur tertium) as for Inſtance, Perſons may be tolerated to inhabit in a Land, to enjoy their Lands, and liberties, and not be compelled to profeſſe and practiſe things which are againſt their conſciences; It is one thing to be forced and compelled poſitively to doe things againſt conſcience, and another thing, not to be ſuffered the publicke practiſe of ſome things in ſeparated Congregations, as to illuſtrate it thus, ſuppoſe the Papiſts upon their petitions to the Parliament ſhould have thoſe ſtatutes repealed, which enjoynes them to come to our Churches, (which they ſay is againſt their conſciences) though indeed they are bound by the command of God to come, and ought by the Magiſtrate to be compelled to come (as Doctor Davenant hath cleerely ſhowed) yet the granting the Papiſts a Toleration of the publicke Daven. determ. queſt. 2 7.exerciſe of their Religion, to the ſcandall of the Reformed Churches and diſhonour of God, were quite another thing, inſomuch as the Papiſts though they petition the firſt, (upon deepe Proteſtation of living peaceably, and according to the Lawes of the Land) yet they move not for the laſt: ſo I judge you may live in the Land freely, and enjoy your liberties and eſtates, comming to our Churches, enjoying the ordinances, and are like never to be compelled to profeſſe or practiſe what is againſt your judgements, the greateſt inconvenience is but the forbearing of ſomething you would have, which conſidering the queſtionableneſſe of the thing, and the many other evills which would attend it, if you ſhould enjoy it, you may in point of conſcience be well ſatisfied without it; ſo that conſider well, and you may find a medium betweene leaving the Land and enjoying a Toleration of exempt Congregations.
Sixthly, If all theſe former anſwers ſatisfie you not fully, becauſe (though theſe things be true) yet beſides theſe Ordinances and Miniſters, you muſt be in a Church way and Fellowſhip, as now you are, then know, according to your Principles of a viſible Church, laid downe by Maſter Robinſon, and by your ſelves in all your Manuſcripts, you may enjoy your way in having ſeverall viſible Churches, and that without that offence and ſcandall to Magiſtrates and Churches, and yet neither leave the Kingdome, nor have a Toleration, and Reb. Catechiſ. Anſ. to 2. queſt. Reb. Juſtific. pag. 221.that I will demonſtrate thus; two or three Saints joyning together in a Covenant make a Church, a greater number is not required, neither Officers to the eſſence of a Church; a greater addition of company to this two or three, though they may make for the well being and flouriſhing of the Church, yet they are not of the eſſence of the Church. Now then every one of you Manuſ. Treat. of a church. I propound theſe things as being according to their principles, but not as mine.in your owne Families, as the Husband, Wife, Children of age, and Servants, who are viſible Saints, may be joyned in covenant to walke in Gods wayes, and to watch over one another, ſo that here is a Church, and every Maſter in his Family may ſet up holy exerciſes, and exerciſe Diſcipline among themſelves for their Families, and thus in the Church that is in their houſe, they may exerciſe what Diſcipline they judge is wanting in ours, ſo that comming to our Churches to the Word, Prayer, Sacraments, they may ſerve God in their owne Families among themſelves in a Church way, in wayes of admonition, reproofe, and other cenſures; nay every Church Family, or moſt of them may have Officers alſo amongſt them, the Miniſters Families may have a Paſtor or Teacher, each Miniſter being made Paſtor of his owne Family, choſen alſo he may be by his Family, who alſo may Preach and inſtruct his Family, and exerciſe Diſcipline amongſt them; great Families, as Gentlemen or Citizens may themſelves be teachers of their Families, according to your Principles, or may have ſome in their Families fit to be choſen Elders and Teachers to them, eſpecially ſuch of them who keepe Schollers in their houſes, and ſtill choſen by the Church of this Family: But if there be ſome Church Families who have none fit for Officers to their Church (which can hardly be in theſe kindes of Churches) yet this is not of the eſſence of the Church. But as for ſingle perſons, as Young men and Mayds, who are of your judgement, if you aske what they ſhall doe, ſeeing they have no Families, and cannot joyne two or three in a Family to make a Church. I anſwer, they may be Servants unto men of their owne judgement, and live in the Families of their owne way, and ſo may be in a Church: And thus you may enjoy your owne way without ſcandall or diviſion, the Lawes not forbidding or medling what men doe in this kind, as how oft men pray in their owne Families, or catechiſe them, or whom they ſhut out from their Prayers and holy duties: But if it be ſaid, how ſhall ſuch (as are bred Schollers, the Miniſters of this way) be maintained? it is not being Miniſters to their owne Family will maintaine them? I anſwer, I have taken care to ſhow them a way for maintenance alſo, how they may enjoy their Country, their Conſciences, and maintenance, that ſo they need not be forced to ſeeke a Toleration of Churches, that they may be maintained, and that is thus; Suppoſing they will not take Paſtorall charges of Pariſhes, but onelyonly be Paſtors of the Church in their houſe, yet holding it lawfull (as they doe) to Preach in our Congregations, they may take Lectures amongſt us, and ſo be maintained, there will be want of many men for Lectures ſetled by gifts of the dead, and then no queſtion but the government of the Church, which ſhall be eſtabliſhed by Law, will be ſo moderate, that if men hold the maine points of Doctrine with the Church, be pious in life and peaceable, ſo as not to Preach nor ſpeake againſt whats eſtabliſhed by Law, nor doe not make Schiſmes to goe and ſet up ſeparated Aſſemblies (which practiſes cauſed troubles in the Church) they may enjoy all liberty and (as many Scriptures ſhow) freedome, though in point of opinion and judgement there may be ſome difference from things eſtabliſhed by Law (for I ſuppoſe we ſhall not have ſubſcriptions enjoyned to formes of government and Diſcipline) but onelyonly to Doctrines, and that alſo in maine and cleere poynts, ſo that by all this you may apprehend how without a Toleration, you may in a ſecret and peaceable way enjoy your Church fellowſhip with maintenance alſo. What ever elſe you ſeeke for by a Toleration of many Families to make a Church, is but for the more comfort & flouriſhing of your way, but not as that which is neceſſary to your way, now in a buſines which is but of conveniency, & not of neceſſity, according to your principles, (though you had a liberty & priviledge to enjoy it, yet) where ſo muchſcandal may come of your liberty, and it cannot be avoyded (for though one of the more ſober and conſcientious Miniſters and people could uſe it better, yet moſt would abuſe it; as the rigid Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, and many weake Chriſtians) you ſhould not uſe it but forbeare, ſo the Apoſtle teaches us, 1 Cor. 8. v. 9. So Gal. 5. v. 13. 14. 15. Now a ſcandall is ſome word or action, giving an occaſion of ruine to a weake brother, which practice of yours would certainely doe; now to the avoiding the ſcandall of the weake, All thoſe things are to be done or omitted, which may be done or omitted without ſinne, as Ameſius grants, lib. 5. de Conſ. cap. 11. So Gerſon ſpeakes, part 2. Reg. moral. A man is bound to deſiſt from every act, to which be is not neceſſarily tyed, where upon good grounds the ſcandall of the weake is feared. Now the ſetting up of ſeparated Aſſemblies in this Church, may be omitted without ſinne, neither are ye neceſſarily tyed to it, as will appeare by this ſixth Anſwer. Beſides, conſidering all the former anſwers, wherein you ſee what you may enjoy in this Kingdome in liberty of Ordinances and Conſciences, you are not tyed for ſome matter of convenience, which you might enjoy in another Kingdome, to withdraw from this Church, and to leave your owne Country, for your ſatisfaction in which point, I had rather Doctor Ameſius ſhould ſpeake then I, to whom I referre you, who in his caſes of Conſcience about this point, ſaith thus. A man may keepe Communion with a Church Ameſ. lib. 4. de conſ. cap. 24. de ….wherein wicked men are ſuffered, and good men depreſſed, and that upon ſeverall reaſons, amongſt others, upon this ground; Becauſe from ſuch a Church to a purer, there is oft times no removing without great dammages and hinderance, which ought to be avoyded alwayes (as much as may be) without ſinne: yea ſuch dammages and loſſes doe ſometimes cauſe that an affirmative precept ceaſes to bind. A man may joyne himſelfe and live in ſuch a Church, in which many defects are neceſſarily to be tolerated, yea, and joyne to that Church, where the power of removing ſcandalls, and caſting out wicked men is taken away, if he cannot without great prejudice and hurt, goe to a freer Church, and men ſinne not either in joyning to ſuch a Church, or continuing in it. But yet further he grants, a man may be a member of ſuch a Church in which ſome things inſtituted by Chriſt are wanting; and where ſome things appointed by men are introduced. So that I beſeech you Brethren, lay all theſe ſix anſwers together, and conſider ſadly whether God requires of you, unleſſe you may have a Toleration, to leave the Kingdome: to run many hazards and dangers for Churches after your way, when as you may enjoy ſo much at home without a Toleration of exempt Aſſemblies, as I have opened in theſe ſix anſwers.
Seventhly, If notwithſtanding all that is ſaid to you you will not be ſatisfied, without ſetting up Churches againſt the Church, it were better for you to leave the Kingdome, and to returne backe to your charges, and families into Holland, and others of your minde, who cannot be ſatisfied, to leave the Land, and to goe to New England, or elſe where, rather then by erecting of Churches by Toleration or without it to diſturbe the good and peace of three Kingdomes; and this will be no great harme to many of you, for you may eaſily returne, being able to live and ſubſiſt there comfortably (as you ſay your ſelves:) and for my owne part were I of your way (ſo farre as I know my owne heart) I had rather goe to the uttermoſt parts of the Earth, though to live in a hard and meane condition, than to diſturbe the peace or good of three Kingdomes, as you would doe by a Toleration. Looke what is commonly ſaid, praeſtat ut pereat unus quam unit as, It is better that one periſh than unity, ſo I ſay it is farre better a few Miniſters and people wanted ſome outward accommodations of their owne Countrey than that the good of the whole ſhould be ſo in danger, neither is there any cruelty or perſecution in it, (as they will be apt to phraſe it) for if the purity of Doctrine, holineſſe of life, peace of the Church cannot be preſerved by ſuch a Toleration (as I have in part ſhewed, and can make it plaine) then it ought not to be, and I will ſpeake for my ſelfe, and in the behalfe of hundreds of my Brethren, painefull in the Miniſtery, who have borne the brunt of the times, that we profeſſe we will ſubmit to the reformation and government eſtabliſhed by Law, which we doubt not but will be very bleſſed and glorious, but however things ſhould fall out, we would either patiently tolerate what is not in our ſpheare to reforme, or quietly ſit downe in the Kingdome, or elſe with leave betake our ſelves to ſome other Countryes, being fully reſolved in our Conſciences, that circumſtances in and about externall formes of Government in matter of order can never be ſufficient grounds to us, to ſet up Churches againſt a Church where true Churches are, and ſo to prove meanes of eternall diviſions and heart-burnings between Miniſters and people.
Reaſon. IIII.
I But if theſe Miniſters, and ſome ſuch Churches be not tolerated, they are afraid that in time they ſhall draw moſt of the good people out of the Land after them.
Firſt Anſwer. I heare one of them ſay ſo, but I ſuppoſe they rather hope then feare it, and this plainely ſhewes they have a good conceit of themſelves, and of their owne way.
Secondly, For their feare, we feare too (but not as they doe) but this, that if they have a toleration, they may draw away many good people, eſpecially if the ceremonies and the Liturgy ſtand in full force, and their Churches tolerated, they will make brave worke in a ſhort time (though I am confident God will preſerve many judicious, adviſed Chriſtians from their way notwithſtanding:) but let there be no Toleration granted, and they once well ſhipt, and a reformation amongſt us in government, and Miniſters, that feare is over with me, we feare it not, that many will follow them, for when that which firſt bred theſe men, the violent preſſing of ceremonies, the caſting out of good Miniſters, the many notorious perſons ſuffered in the Church without all cenſure, ſhall be removed, many will not be bred, and others will be ſatisfied, and I doubt it not but that the godly and painefull Miniſters of the Church of England, may and will, both out-Preach them, and out-live them, and may be compared with them for all excellencies, and abilities: for my part I ſhall ſpeake as I finde, I knew many of them long before they fell to this way, and know them ſince, and have not ſeene any of them better, or more profitable in life and Miniſtry, for their charge; onelyonly this I am ſure of, for ſome of them, whereas whilſt of the Church of England they Preacht often, now ſeldome, they goe looſer in their apparell and haire, they take leſſe care for the publicke in things that concerne the glory of God and Salvation of mens ſoules, their principles & ſpirits grow very narrow like their Churches, they grow more ſtrange, reſerved, ſubtile, in a word, they minde little elſe but the propagation of their Independant way, (as The Proteſtation Proteſted witneſſeth abundantly) and I ſhall ſpeake my Conſcience And what ever Liturgie or Ceremonies or Diſcipline are left to accompany this Nationall Church Government, tis indifferent with us, ſo as we may enjoy our Chriſtian libertie in the true uſe of ſuch Ordinances, and of ſuch Independant Government as Chriſt the onelyonly Law-giver of his Church, and Lord of the conſcience, hath left unto us in his Word.from the experience I have had of many of them having ſtudyed and obſerved them and their writings and never ſaw nor heard of any men who fell fully to that way, that ever had ſo large a ſpirit for good, afterwards to take that care of propagating the Goſpell and preaching the Word to men without; I never knew any man that ever God honoured ſo much, after he fell to thoſe principles as before, though the ſame perſons before have beene active for God, doing famouſly and worthily, yet when they fall to this way, they either blemiſh themſelves, or doe little; and the truth is, thoſe principles of ſeparation be ſuch as God did never honour much the men who held them: looke what is ſayd by them of Epiſcopacie, that the very calling of it hath ſuch a malignity in it, that it hurts the beſt men that are placed in thoſe chaires, that I may ſay truely, of this way, there is a malignity cleaves to it, hurting the men that fall to it, by altering their ſpirits and contracting their hearts, (though many of them continue good in the maine.)
Reaſon. V.
THis is no other but envie in the Miniſters that makes them againſt a toleration, becauſe they feare their people will deſert them and come to us, being ſo pure in Ordinances and Churches; and thus The Proteſtation Proteſted ſpeakes, and tis frequently in ſome of their mouths.
Anſw. 1. It is not out of envy to their miniſters and Chriſtians; for firſt I hold their practiſe ſinfull and unwarrantable to ſeparate from our Churches and to erect ſuch Congregations, and therefore I ſpeake againſt it, and that by the helpe of God I ſhall make good in a following diſcourſe.
2. It cannot be counted envie in Miniſters to be unwilling to have their flockes and people fall from them, is it envie in a father to be unwilling to have his children ſtollen from him and tempted away by ſtrangers? I aske ſuch of you who be fathers if you would be willing to have your Children forſake you and that with renouncing the womb that bare them, & the paps that gave them ſucke, throwing dirt into the face of Father and Mother? Now this is the caſe for Miniſters, to have their ſpirituall children whom they have begotten to God, who are their comfort and the fruite of all their Labours to fall from them and to deſpite them afterwards cannot be pleaſing, neither ought it: looke what the Jewes gave out falſely concerning the naturall body of Chriſt that his Diſciples came by night and ſtole it away, that may be ſayd truely of his Myſticall body, Beleevers you by your tolerations would have your Diſciples come by night and ſteale them away, and therefore we ought not to ſleepe, but to watch againſt you.
Anſw. 3. I envie you not, but pity and love you, and would not have you have ſuch a ſword as a Toleration put into your hands (though ſome amongſt you perhaps might uſe it better) to hurt your ſelves with, and to have ſuch an occaſion to run upon the rocke of Schiſme, and to goe out of the way dayly turning into errours on the right hand.
Anſw. 4. This Author would intimate and make the world beleeve, as if only the honeſt ſoules were with them, and would be for their way, but as for them who be againſt their way and toleration, they are not ſuch honeſt ſoules: but let them know honeſt ſoules are not onelyonly with them, for in the Church of England there ever have beene, and are as honeſt miniſters and people that have rejected your way, as ever any that fell to it, nay the greateſt Non-conformiſts and moſt able in that way, have writ the moſt againſt you, and laboured upon all occaſions to preſerve people from falling to you, as Mr Cartwright, Mr Brightman, Mr Parker, Mr Hilderſham, Dr Ames, Mr Bradſhawe, Mr Ball, Mr Dod, Mr Baines, with many others.
Reaſon. VI.
I But they be good men, and men of great gifts, and therefore they ſhould bee tolerated to have ſuch Churches, tis pity they ſhould leave the land, and we loſe their prayers.
Anſw. 1. The better men they be, and the more able, the worſe to ſet up ſeparated Churches, for they will the more endanger the peace of the Kingdome, and make the Schiſmes greater.
2. For their prayers we may have the benefit of them as well when they are abſent as preſent, and ſome of them have ſayd, they pray'd more for England, when out of it than when in it.
3. They left the Kingdome when it was in greateſt danger and in moſt neede of helpe, and provided for themſelves to keepe in a whole skin, and without them we ſtood here in the gap, and prevailed with God, and rather than to buy their company at ſuch a rate as a Toleration, it is better to want it, as I ſhewed before, and I queſtion not but the Kingdome will doe well enough though they returne, and the better unleſſe they ceaſe ſowing of their principles.
4. For this objection of being good men, I ſhall anſwere it at large in another Tractate, wherein I ſhall minde men of many dangers that may ariſe to them from good and eminent men, and fully ſhew what little ſtrength there is in that Reaſon; clearing alſo many things in reference to that Objection.
Queſt. I, but may not conſcientious men who agree with us in the maine in points of Doctrine and Practiſe, be tolerated and ſpared in ſome things wherein they differ from what is commonly received?
Anſw. Yes, I doe in my judgement much allow of bearing and forbearing one another in many differences of opinions and practiſes, ſo as Chriſtians ought Rom. 14. 3.not to judge nor cenſure one another, nor refuſe communion and fellowſhip by not admitting men into their Churches and to the Ordinances upon ſuch points (which is the great fault of the Independant Churches, denying communion to many Saints for ſome differences in Judgement about Church government and Orders; which practiſe of theirs is expreſſe againſt the 15. Rom. 7.) neither to force men to change their mindes and opinions by caſting them violently out of the miniſtry and Church (which was the practiſe of many in theſe late times, and hath cauſed ſo many Schiſmes and ſtirres amongſt us:) I approve not ſuch practiſes, but deſire to be a follower and lover of all the wayes of peace and Communion, with any who agree in the maine, and have ſomething of God and Chriſt in them: The practiſe of Anicetus and Polycarpus, with that of Cyprian, are infinitely pleaſing to me (and I wiſh they were more imitated) Polycarpus and Anicetus in the difference about keeping of dayes, though neither of them could perſwade the other to change their cuſtome, yet they kept faſt the bond of Chriſtian fellowſhip; Anicetus admitting Polycarpus to the Communion of the Roman Church, and departing in peace one from the other. Cyprian (though he erred in the point of rebaptization) yet he would not condemne them raſhly who were of a contrary opinion, nor refuſe Communion with them, profeſſing that for the difference of opinions, he would not breake the Lords peace with his Colleagues, nor remove any that was of a different minde from him, from the right of Communion: So that men may be tolerated in their differences of opinions, ſo long as they keepe Communion with a Church, and ſubmit to the Diſcipline and Orders ſo as to be peaceable and not to ſpeake againſt whats eſtabliſhed by common conſent, nor practiſe to the ſcandall and contempt of the Magiſtrates and Church: But if a few men, halfe a dozen or halfe a ſcore Miniſters, refuſe Communion with a Church, rending from the body, by ſetting up of a Church againſt a Church, Preaching and venting their opinions every where, to the diſturbance of a Kingdome, and the drawing of Diſciples after them, though they were Miniſters of gold, and had the tongue of men and Angells, yet they ſhould not have a Toleration; upon which ſubject they may read aCal. Farel. Epiſt. 397. Quod ſi pervicaciter recuſare inſtiterit, denuncient ſibi non eſſe loco fratris, qui communem diſciplinam contumacia ſua perturbet: ſemper hoc in Eccleſia valuit, quod veteribus ſynodis ſuit decretum, ut qui ſubjici communis diſciplinae legibus noluerit munere abdi…neque hic quaerenda eſt hominum authoritas, cum Spiritus Sanctus de talibus pronunciaverit, Eccleſiam non habere morem contendendi, valere ergo ipſum jubeant, qui communis ſocietatis jura reſpuit.Calvins laſt Epiſtle to Farellus, wherein Calvins counſell concerning Farellus Colleague is this; That if he will not be reduced to Order, the Miniſters ſhould tell him that he is not to be reckoned of as a brother, who doth diſturbe the common Diſcipline by his contumacie: This was ever a cuſtome in the Church which was decreed in ancient Synods, that who would not ſubject to the Lawes of common Diſcipline ſhould bee put by his place. Neither is the authority of men here to bee ſought after, when as the Spirit of God pronounces of ſuch, 1 Cor. 11. 16. That the Church hath no cuſtome of contending. So that in all this diſcourſe againſt a Toleration, I have not written out of violence of Spirit, cruelty, or ill will to the men, for I love and reſpect them, (though for the preſent in an errour) but from a zeale to the Glory of God, and the good of this Church for the preſervation of purity of doctrine, holineſſe of life and peace, (which cannot ſtand with a Toleration) and though I be earneſt in this cauſe, tis not from ſuddaine apprehenſion or paſſion, for I have had long thoughts of this Church way, and I doe apprehend more evill in it, than men doe ſee at firſt, or than the Independants can ſee, it being their owne cauſe, and they many wayes engaged in it: O that the Independant Miniſters would with an impartiall deſire of ſatisfaction, conſider what hath beene written, and be perſwaded to lay aſide all thoughts of ſetting up ſeparated aſſemblies, and come and grow into one body, joyning in one way with us! For which end I will commend to them the Councell of bFratrem vero illum qui hactenus a vobis diſſenſit, obſecramus in Domino ne ulterius pertinacia contendat ad repugnandum. Meminerit inter alia, quae Paulus in Paſtore requirit, hoc eſſe non poſtren foreign, neſit foreign, hoc eſt proprio judicio addictus. Et cene haec una eſt ex praecipuis virtutibus boni paſtoris, ſic exhorrere toto pectore contentiones ut nunquam a fratribus niſi ob cauſas maxime neceſſarias, diſſideat, Cal. Epi. 55.Calvin, given in a like caſe concerning a Miniſter, who diſſented from the the reſt of his fellowes. Let him remember amongſt other things what Paul requires in a Paſtor, this is not the laſt, that he ought not to be ſelfe willed, that is, addicted to his own proper judgement; and certainely this is one of the chiefe vertues of a good Paſtor, ſo from the whole heart to feare contentions, that he may never diſſent from his brethren, unleſſe it be for cauſes greatly neceſſary. Now conſidering what they may enjoy in this Church (as I have before ſhewed at large in the Anſwers to the three Reaſons) ſome circumſtances about the manner and forme of Diſcipline (as the exerciſing of it Independantly) cannot be a cauſe greatly neceſſary, eſpecially if we will beleeve Calvin cSubſtantiam Eccleſiaſticae diſciplinae exprimit di ſertis verbis Scriptura: forma autem ejus exercendae, quoniam a Domino praeſcript non eſt, a miniſtris conſtitui debet pro aedificatione, Cal. Epiſt. 55.who affirmes that the Scriptures expreſſe the ſubſtance of Eccleſiaſticall Diſcipline, but the forme of exerciſing it, becauſe tis not preſcribed by the Lord, it ought to be ordered and appointed by the Miniſters for edification. Pleaſe not your ſelves in your opinions, be not ſo addicted to your owne judgement (for tis certaine ſaith Calvin dEt certe omni, foreign, ſimulac ſe occaſio dederit, itarim …et Schiſmaticus. Cai in Tit. 1. v. 7.that every mar who is addicted and wedded to his owne judgement, ſo ſoone as ever an occaſion offers it ſelfe, will be a Schiſmaticke: of which reade more in that place.
And thus I have delivered my owne ſoule, hoping that either our brethren will withdraw their Petitions ſo as they ſhall never be read in the Honourable Houſe of Commons, or if they ſhould, I hope the Houſe will caſt them out, for I am perſwaded it ſhall never be ſayd of this Parliament in the ages to come, that they were the firſt that opened a dore for Tolerations, and for ſetting up of Churches againſt the Church; which if ever that dore ſhould be opened (which God of his mercy keepe ſhut) I leave it to their great wiſedomes to fore-ſee what infinite evils would in proceſſe of time come upon this Kingdome, and whether the ſucceeding generations would not write in their Chronicles and Hiſtories (as is written of Naaman, 2 King. 5. 1. Now Naaman was a great man with his Maſter, and honourable, becauſe by him the Lord had given deliverance unto Syria: He was alſo a mighty man in valour, but he was a Leper) Such a Parliament was great and Honourable becauſe by them the Lord gave deliverance unto England, it was alſo a mighty Parliament for executing juſtice, and for making ſuch and ſuch excellent Lawes, but it granted a Toleration; whether this would not caſt a darke ſhaddow upon their glorious light, and be as a dead flye in the Oyntment of the Apothecary; I humbly ſubmit to their judgement. But to conclude this diſcourſe both againſt Independancie, and againſt Tolerations, the day is ſhortly comming will try all, and I rejoyce in the thoughts of it, in regard of the accounts I ſhall give about this controverſie of Separation, nothing doubting but in that great day (Chriſt of his rich grace pardoning the weakneſſes that have, may, and doe cleave to me in the manner of managing it) will owne my whole worke, and endeavours againſt that way of Separation, as ſtirred up by his owne Spirit, and followed all along by his Spirit, enabling mee in it and to it above my owne ſtrength; and though I expect many cenſures and reproaches from that ſort of men yet then I ſhall have prayſe with God, and the reward of all my labour, for truth, love, peace, and holineſſe, which I aime at in this and all other Diſcourſes about this Controverſie.
FINIS.
End of the text · Thomas Edwards, Reasons Against Independent Government of Particular Congregations (1641)