A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant, Dialogue (3 of 3)
Pa.
I will not denie but that he which doth ſet vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes, maketh himſelfe God, euen as a ſubiect which taketh vponupon him to make lawes, and to refuſe the lawes of the Prince, maketh himſelfe as it were a king. But I ſay the Biſhop of Rome doth not ſo, for he hath the holie Ghoſt and cannot erre. And ſo when he doth forgiue ſinnes, he doth no more then is warranted by the word: and in very deede which ye take vponupon ye to doe.
Pro.
What ſhould I ſtand to anſwere bare words: wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghoſt, but by the lying ſpirit of the diuel, becauſe he hath ſo flatly troden downe Gods word, and brought in his owne lawes in ſtead of it. I will not ſtand to recite particulars, all the world may iudge. And whereas ye ſay, he doth not forgiue ſins, but as we doe take vponupon vsus: that is but a ſhift which ye hauehave deuiſed: for all that will may ſee, whether this bee all one: to pronounce remiſſion of ſins to the penitent, which we do: and to ſend forth pardōs, whereby for ten ſhilling matter, a man might not onelyonly hauehave forgiuenes of his ſins paſt, but libertie for a good time after to commit many ſinnes. If this be not the man of ſinne, where ſhall we finde him? Who doth take vponupon him to bee God, if he do not, which for money will forgiue a man whatſoeuer he doth commit againſt God? Shall a rotten ſtinking carrion thus blaſpheme, and men not eſpie that hee is the great Antichriſt? I hauehave now ſhewed yée how the Pope boaſteth himſelf to be God: but I dare not ſay you will recant.
Pa.
When I ſee matter which may force me to recant I will do it, but for ought that I ſee brought to the purpoſe, to proue that which you promiſed, there is cauſe rather why you ſhould recant, and renounce your errors, and returne againe to the holy mother, which is ready to receiue thoſe that returne to her, how vnkindly ſoeuer they hauehave behaued themſelues toward her.
Pro.
The diueliſh ſtrumpet is almoſt left deſolate, and therefore ſhe laboureth to draw as many as ſhe can, and to entice them to her louelove: faire and foule, tag and mag, all are welcome, none come amiſſe now: Murtherers, whoremaſters, whores, bawdes, drunkards, and all ſuch like: if they will take her for their mother, ſhe is not aſhamed to take them for her children, and to make them partakers of her holineſſe. But let vsus come againe to the matter. Saint Paul in the ſame chapter ſayth, That Antichriſt ſhould come with lying ſignes and wonders: and ſo is it alſo expreſſed in the Reuelation, that the beaſt ſhould that way ſeduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth. If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope, how ſhall it euer bee fulfilled, or where ſhall wee looke for it? What hath béen all your outcries, but myracles, myracles? Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea, and feſtiuall, and ſuch other pure bookes, what ſhall he finde but myracle vponupon myracle: and ſo true, that if a man would lye for the whetſtone, hee may there ſtore himſelfe, if hee will hauehave a whole bundle. The people did beléeue them, for why, the Scripture ſaith,2. Theſſ. 2. GOD ſhould ſend them ſtrong deluſion to beléeue lyes. I dare ſay boldly, that although you Papiſts, a great nū ber of ye, hauehave put on impudent and ſhameleſſe faces, to maintaine lyes: yet there is not one of ye, but wil bluſh, if he ſhould take vponupon him to defend that ſtinking puddle of lyes, and fained wonders, which ye fed the common people withal. A man may be aſhamed to recite them, leaſt thoſe which know not the matter, ſhould thinke he doth lie.
Pa.
What way can you proue that the myracles of the Church were falſe, and counterfeit? Will you take vponupon ye to condemne ſuch things as were done long ſince? If there bee ſome things written which might wel enough be left out: is the Church to be charged with that which eueryevery particular man doth? There were abuſes crept in, which the Biſhop himſelfe did not know of. Is it reaſon he ſhould be blamed?
Pro.
I thinke no wiſe man will doubt but that this is a ſufficient proofe, that your myracles were but iugling caſts in the darke, becauſe ye had ſuch ſtore then, & hauehave none now: alas there is as great néede now as euer there was. And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget, pull it forth and let vsus ſee it, that we may giuegive ſome credit vntounto ye. Nay your mother had no good counſell giuen her, when ſhe had ſuch plentie to ſpend it ſo waſtfully as ſhe did, and to kéepe none for a deare yeare. I wiſſe a few of thoſe great wonders which ſhée ſhewed in time paſt, would now ſtand her in great ſtead.
Pa.
Mocke on, take your pleaſure, there is none to controule ye. VVhat though there be neede at this time, yet the world is vnworthie: euen as Chriſt ſaid to the Phariſies when they required a ſigne, Matth. 19.This euill and adulterous generation ſeeketh a ſigne, but there ſhall no ſigne be giuen them but the ſigne of Ionas the Prophet. Euen ſo what reaſon is it, that the holy mother ſhould ſhew any wonders and myracles vntounto you, which are worſe then the Phariſies?
Pro.
Alacke good old mother, ſhe hath néede as much as euer ſhe had to ſhew her cunning: but the world is not worthie. Although ſhée might winne great credit by it, yet ſhe had rather kéepe a good conſcience. And therefore ſhe doth follow ye example of Chriſt, which would not doe any myracle at the requeſt of the Phariſies. Yea but why doth ſhe not ſhew ſome of her power to her own chickens, for feare leaſt they ſhould be drawn frō her. Chriſt wrought myracles ſtill to his diſciples, although ye Phariſies were vnworthie. No there is ſome other let, the window doth ſtand too wide opē, there commeth too much light. Your mother would play one feate, but that ſhe feareth ſhe ſhould not make her conueiance ſo cleanly, but that one or other would eſpie her. She doth vſe worſe meanes a great deale.
Pa.
What can you tell what myracles the Church doth, you hauehave not faith to beleeue them? She worketh more then you are made priuie of.
Pro.
I doe certainly perſwade my ſelfe that I know not all that ſhe doth: ſhe hath learned to be more cloſe then to let eueryevery man ſée what ſhe doth. And yet ſometime wee ſée more then we can well like of. Your little pretie moulden God in the boxe doth giuegive her counſel how to deale againſt her enemies.
Pa.
I ſee well when men are fallen away, they care not what blaſphemies they vtter. This is farre from the thing which ye offered to proue.
Pro.
If a man may vtter blaſphemy againſt a péece of dow, then I hauehave blaſphemed. But I doe aſſure ye I will neuer craue pardon for it. I am ſtill in the matter which I tooke in hand, which was to ſhew that the Pope is Antichriſt. I could make plaine proues vntounto ye out of other places of Scripture, & eſpecially out of the Reuelation, where the holie Ghoſt doth of purpoſe ſet forth the kingdome of Antichriſt.
Pa.
VVill ye take vponupon ye to expound the Reuelation, and the things are ſet forth in it ſo darkly by myſteries, that no man can ſay preciſely, this or that is the ſenſe? but when you hauehave interpreted things one way, another may make as good and as probable a ſenſe another way. What one thing is there which maketh ſo plainly againſt vsus, as ye would beare men in hand? Doth it not make as plainly againſt you?
Pro.
Although the Lord hath ſpoken darkly in the Reuelation, yet not ſo darkly but that it may be vnderſtood, otherwiſe to what purpoſe was it giuen? Wherefore are thoſe pronounced bleſſed which reade & heare it,Reuel. 1. if none can expound it? it would hauehave béen a great deale more hard to vnderſtand, if the myſteries had béen but barely vttered: but becauſe there is alſo an expoſition of the chief things, which doe as it were couple all the reſt together: it is no hard matter to finde the ſenſe, eſpecially, when as the expoſition is in ſo flat and plaine tearmes, that euen the very obſtinate Papiſts of your ſide are driuen to confeſſe them: and not only in word, but alſo in writing.
Pa.
What can ye ſhew that is confeſſed by our men, which ye ſay they are forced to confeſſe both in word and writing?
Pro.
Reuel. 11.Saint Iohn ſaith, in the 11. chapter, that the beaſt which riſeth out of the bottomleſſe pit, ſhould make war againſt ye two witneſſes which the Lord would ſend, & ouercome them, and ſlay them. And their bodies ſhould lye in the ſtréetes of the great citie, which ſpiritually is called Sodome and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. Ieruſalē was deſtroyed, and Chriſt although he was (if we reſpect the place) crucified there, but yet if wee reſpect the authoritie he was crucified at Rome, becauſe he was put to death by Pylate, who had there the authoritie vnderunder the Romane Emperour.
Moreouer, in the 17. chapter, he ſaith plainly, This woman which thou ſaweſt, is the great citie which raigneth ouer the kings of the earth. Other things he ſetteth downe, as the ſeuen hils and ſeuen kings, all which do of neceſſitie deſcribe Rome, for there was, nor is none other citie vntounto which they may in any colour bee aſcribed. Therefore as I ſayd, it is confeſſed (becauſe it is ſo plaine that it cannot be denied) euen by your men, that Saint Iohn indéede in the Reuelation doth call Rome Babylon. What fooles are thoſe which cannot by and by ſee that if Rome bee Babylon, and then Sodome and Egypt, that the Pope muſt néedes be Antichriſt.
Pa.
VVhat foole is it which cannot ſee the weakeneſſe of your argument. I pray ye doth it in good ſadneſſe follow, that becauſe the Scripture (as wee confeſſe) doth call Rome Babylon: therefore the Biſhop of Rome is Antichriſt. VVhat if one ſhould reaſon thus, London is a wicked citie, therefore the Biſhop of London is a wicked man. Were not this a prety argument? And why is not the other as good? Rome of old time euen when S. Iohn did write, was ſo full of wickedneſſe that he called it Babylon: and therefore the Biſhop of Rome then was Antichriſt. For ye muſt as well bring in then, as now. Are yee ſo poore a Logitian to frame an argument after that ſort? Can ye not diſtinguiſh betweene a citie, and the Biſhop of a citie? Either you were but a while at Cambridge, or elſe ye ſpent your time euill.
Pro.
O great wiſe man, what a quicke and ſharpe ſight hauehave you. And how ſound a Logitian you ſhew your ſelfe, if to be blinde, bee to be a Logitian. Doe ye take it in good ſadneſſe, that I would frame my reaſon thus, Rome is Babylon, therefore the Pope is Antichriſt, without conſideration of circumſtances therto annexed. No ſir, although it follow not at all, if we barely conſider the citie and the Biſhop: yet if ye put on your ſpectacles, & looke well vponupon other circumſtances, ye ſhall bée forced to confeſſe that if Rome bee Babylon, the Pope is Antichriſt.
Pa.
If ye can proue ſuch a conſequence by circumſtances, I ſuppoſe ye would be able for a neede to proue Pauls ſteeple and Charing croſſe to be couſin germanes. Ye hauehave as many circumſtances belonging hereto, as to the other. They be both made of ſtone, and dwell both in one citie, and peraduenture much about one age. But perhaps yours are neerer matters.
Pro.
As for Paules ſtéeple and Charing croſſe, I hauehave knowen them but a while. I can not teſtifie of any kindred betwéen thē, I leaue that to you. Sure I am of this, that ye ſhal as ſoone prooue the one of them to be the Father, & the other the Sonne: as ye ſhall be able to diſproue this reaſon, Rome is Babylon, therfore the Pope is Antichriſt. I pray ye tell me this: wherfore doth S. Iohn, deſcribing the kingdom of Antichriſt, deſcribe or note out alſo the Citie of Rome? Is it not to let vsus to vnderſtād, that if we wil ſéeke for Antichriſt, we ſhal find him there? Rome is his ſeat, he that would find him let him goe thither, for there S. Iohn placeth him. When a man is come thither, where ſhal a man looke, for this little fellow which is exalted aboue al, that is called God, which ſitteth in the temple of God, ſhewing himſelfe that he is God: is there any other there which beareth this likenes? Peraduēture ye wil ſay this was fulfilled in ſome of the Emperors which would be taken for God. Yea ſir, but there was none of ye wicked Emperors which did ſit in the tē ple of God. Neither was there any of them which did ſeduce the world by lying wonders. Wée muſt find ſuch an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings & Emperors, which ſitteth in the Temple of God & ſeduceth by myracles. But perhaps he ſhall ariſe at Rome hereafter, and is not yet come. Surely then let vsus neuer looke for him: if we think there ſhal ariſe one at Rome, which ſhall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope, or doe more fained myracles, and lying wonders then he hath.
Moreouer, tell me this: is there any man ſo ſimple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation,Reuel. 17. where the Angel doth ſhew ye miſtery of the woman (which he calleth the great whore) and of the beaſt which beareth her: that wil not by & by confeſſe, yt ſéeing Rome is that whore, borne vp with ye ſcarlet coloured beaſt with ſeuen heads: the Pope alſo muſt néeds be Antichriſt: for he is one of ye heads of the beaſt. The heads of the beaſt being ſeuen, are (ſaith the Angel) ſeuen Kings, where ſhould they reign? At Rome. Fiue (ſaith he) are fallen, one is, another is to come. Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome: whereof it is wel knowen, fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote. One was thē ſtanding, which was ye Empire. And the ſeuenth or laſt ſhould ſhortly follow. Where is he that hath riſen at Rome to be the ſeuenth & laſt of theſe kings, if it be not ye Pope? O ye fooliſh Papiſts, hauehave ye come thus far as to cōfeſſe that Rome is Babylon, which is the great whore, & ſo tel men where they muſt ſéek for Antichriſt: And wil ye denie the Pope to be ye beaſt? Why, they be ioined together. Shew vsus ſome other, vponupon whō we may ſée the brand which the ſcripture hath ſet vponupon Antichriſt? We now, by that which you hauehave granted and confeſſed, muſt not looke for him elſwhere, but at Rome: & vntill ye can ſhew vsus ſome other there, we ſée none ſo like him, as the Popes holines. If ye can ſhew any other, put men out of doubt.
Pa.
Doth the Scripture ſay that Antichriſt ſhould bee at that place which is called Babylon. Where find ye any ſuch thing? It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie, not becauſe Antichriſt ſhould reigne there. Againe, where yee take the interpretation of ſeuen heads to be ſeuen kings in Rome, as you ſay, ſeuen kinds of gouernment: fiue were fallen, one was, which is the Empyre, one was to come: which ſay you muſt needs be the Pope, for hee hath reigned in the laſt place. Yea, but ye ſayd fiue were fallen, to giuegive place to the ſixt: ſhould not then the ſixt alſo fall to giuegive place to the ſeuenth? How then is your interpretation true, ſeeing the Empire hath ſtood euer ſince?
Pro.
Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel. ſet forth the ſame Antichriſt which S. Paul doth deſcribe, which he calleth the beaſt which all the world ſhould wonder after and worſhip?
Doth he not ſet forth the whore ſitting vponupon the beaſt? Is not the whore by you confeſſed to be Rome? will ye hauehave the beaſt to beare her, and not to be at the ſame place? the beaſt that riſeth out of the bottomles pit, and killeth the ſaints. Reuel. 11.
Where ſhal their bodies lie, in ye ſtréets? doth he not ſay in the ſtréets of the great citie, which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt: & afterward in the ſeuentéenth chapt. he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth, is it not all one beaſt which he ſpeaketh of, & al one citie? doth it not follow that where he ſhall kill, there be ſhal raigne? and as for the other thing which ye take exception againſt: I confeſſe the Empire did ſtill retaine the name, and was not quite caſt down: neuertheles it was not indéede an empire, when the Emperors themſelues were brought downe ſo farre in ſubiection to the Pope, as to hauehave him tread in their necke, and to hold his ſtirrops.
Pa.
If the Pope were Antichriſt, as you would make men beleeue, then what became of ye Church all that while, when men beleeued in him, & when he raigned? you confeſſe a thouſand yeres or there about, ſince the Biſhop of Rome had the ſoueraignty. Would God forſake his Church a thouſand yeres, or eight hundreth yeeres? is it like that God which is ſo gracious and merciful, would caſt off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres, and ſuffer to periſh? O how hard harted are you, how vnreuerently minded againſt our anceſtors, how vnkind children, ſo to iudge of the fathers? let them beleeue ye that will: ye be al heretikes, I will keepe me to the ancient faith.
Pro.
Now ye returne to your old fortreſſe againe: yee ſuppoſe that ye hauehave ſome of thoſe poore ſoules in hand which yee may ſeduce, becauſe they are ignorant. Ye can lay forth this matter ſo pitifully among them, yt ye can make them euen wéepe again. But when ye come among ſuch as hauehave vnderſtanding out of Gods word, and know the ſtate of the Church, they laugh at your follie. This is a great queſtion, what became of yt Church? we anſwere as the ſcripture telleth vsus:Reue. 17. the beaſt & the dragon did perſecute & murther the ſeruants of God. The whore of Babylon was drunken with ye blood of the ſaints.Reuel. 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes: God did neuer forſake his Church one day, much leſſe a thouſand, or 8. hundreth yéeres: it doth not follow yt becauſe Antichriſt was exalted in the church, therefore the church was vtterly forſaken and deſtroied. Although corruptions came into the church apace for the ſpace of this 8. hundreth, or a thouſand yeres: yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable eſtate, & nothing ſo corrupted, as within theſe 5. or 6. hundreth yeres, which ſpace we may indéed aſcribe to the reign of Antichriſt: and yet euen in this ſpace he could neuer vtterly deſtroy the Church, for the moſt gracious God did preſerue that litle remnant which was his: and none did periſh but thoſe which loued not the trueth, and therfore God did ſend them ſtrong deluſion to beleeue lies.
None but thoſe which worſhipped the beaſt, and wondered after the beaſt, and receiued the marke of the beaſt: whoſe names were not written in the booke of life. We reuerence our godly fathers, & ſhew no vnkindneſſe towards them.
Pa.
I will deale with ye then vponupon your owne confeſſion: ye grant that for the ſpace of fiue or ſixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned, and the trueth ſuppreſſed. Where was the Church for this ſpace, this is a long time: will ye condemne all the world for the ſpace of theſe fiue hundred yeres? It ye can ſhew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope, ſhew them, Or will ye ſpeake of a church which ye can ſhewe no members of? ſuch folly there is in a number of yee.
Pro.
Anſwere you to a queſtion of mine, and I wil giuegive you an anſwere by and by to yours: when ſaint Iohn ſayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beaſt: & power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints, and to ouercome them. And againe, when all both ſmal and great, rich & poore, bonde & frée, were compelled to receiue a marke, and none might buy & ſel but thoſe which had the marke or name of the beaſt, or the number of his name.
Tell me, where was the true Church then, whē this was fulfilled? whether were al thoſe condemned or not, (if they returned not by repentance) which worſhipped the beaſt, or had his marke? Saint Iohn ſayth, they were killed with the ſword, not a temporall ſworde. Where then ſhall we in theſe times ſéeke out the godly fathers, but ſuch as were perſecuted by the beaſt? Of theſe there be hiſtories, which ſhew in all times that there were ſome.
Pa.
I may ſoone anſwere your queſtion, by ſhewing your great ignorance. He ſayth, all the world worſhipped the beaſt, and you will needes hauehave it to be the Church: is there no difference betweene theſe two. You muſt proue ſuch a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world. God hath promiſed to be with his Church to the end of the world, and therefore that can not fall away. Did the beaſt which S. Iohn ſpeaketh of cauſe all the Church to worſhip him? If you can ſhew that, then ye proue ſomewhat.
Pro.
Here is a blind ſhift brought in to anſwere the queſtion which I demand. He ſayth (ſay you) al the world, & you will hauehave it al the Church. I do not ſay yt any part of the Church did fall away, if we vnderſtand by the Church thoſe which are the elect of God, and the true members of Chriſts body: for theſe can neuer be ſeduced to follow the beaſt, Chriſt hath promiſed to be with theſe to the end of the world. But when by the Church wee vnderſtand all thoſe companies which do profeſſe Chriſt outwardly, thoſe may be ſeduced and fall from the truth, being but the outward & viſible Church: and theſe are here by S. Iohn called the world: which thing is manifeſtly to be proued thus: thoſe nations & people where the beaſt ſhould reigne, or which follow the beaſt, are called the world: now it is manifeſt that the beaſt, being the ſame Antichriſt which S. Paul ſetteth forth, ſhould reigne in the Church: for he muſt ſit in the Temple of God. It is therefore alſo as manifeſt that the viſible Church is called in that place the world. The other nations of the world did not follow the beaſt. But if any will be ſo wilfull & peruerſe as not to ſée plainely by this, yt the beaſt ſhuld beare ſway ouer the nations which were the viſible church: let thē further cōſider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme, that ye beaſt ſhould make war with the ſaints, & ouercome them. If hee ſhall make war with the ſaints, and ouercome them: where ſhall he then raigne, but in the viſible Church? the true ſaints of God ſhal not raign in ye viſible church outwardly, for he ſhall outwardly ouercome them. O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beaſt, which becauſe he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the ſaints, would hauehave him continue ſo ſtill for euer.
Pa.
If a man ſhould grant all that which you ſay, that there ſhould be a falling away in ye church yet this is not likely that God would ſuffer ye grea-, teſt part, and almoſt all to periſh. For what a fewe hauehave thoſe been which hauehave reſiſted the Pope, in reſpect of thoſe that hauehave ioyned with him.
Pro.
This is a very fooliſh obiection, eſpecially to thoſe which conſider the ſtate of Gods Church at all times in the world, what a fewe were the ſéed of Abraham in reſpect of al other nations of the world, whom God caſt off many hundred yeeres? what a few were they among the ſéede of Abraham, which continued good in reſpect of thoſe which did degenerate? What a few were there in the Church when Chriſt came, which were faithful? it appeareth they were very fewe.
Pa.
There be ſundry things ſpoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichriſt which ſhould come, and likewiſe by S. Iohn, which cannot agree to the pope: as for exāple, the one doth ſay that the Lord ſhall deſtroy him with the breath of his mouth. Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope? the other ſayth, that Antichriſt ſhould continue but a ſhort time, he alſo ſetteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe. How abſurdly then is this applyed to the Biſhop of Rome, which hath continued euer ſince the Apoſtles by ſucceſſion? Who is able to denie this? I am afraid Antichriſt, if he be not yet come among you, will come ſhortly, for you are euen his forerunners.
Pro.
Sundry things there are (ſay you) ſpoken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn, concerning Antichriſt which cannot agrée to the Pope. And for example ye name two, the one, that it is ſaid the Lord ſhal deſtroy him with ye breath of his mouth: the other, that he ſhould continue but a little while, as namely thrée daies and an half. Theſe things agrée right wel to the Pope: although this latter might ſéem to be otherwiſe: for a thouſand yeres, if we reſpect it according to men is a long time, but with the Lord it is but as yeſterday. Fiue or ſix hundred yeres by it ſelfe is ſomwhat, but cōpared with eternity, it is but a little: & ſo although we grant yt it is duplicate page duplicate page almoſt a thouſand yéeres ſince the Biſhop of Rome was exalted ſo high, yet it is but a while. But ſay you the time is limitted thrée dayes & an half: is it poſſible that any man ſhould reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichriſt, what he ſhould doe, and the ſame alſo ſet out by ſounding of ſeuen Trumpets,Reuela. 16. in ſeuerall ages, in which it is apparant he ſhould continue, that can bee ſo ignorant as to take it of common daies & not eueryevery day to containe many yeres? are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for ſeuen naturall dayes to the wéeke?Daniel 9. when it is certaine that the ſeuen wéekes, did containe almoſt fiue hundred yeres. Ye are ouer fooliſh to make this cauil. Where as ye ſay the Biſhop of Rome hath continued euer ſince the time of the Apoſtles, & therefore it could not be vnderſtood of him: it is very true that there hath bin a ſucceſſion of Biſhops there euer ſince, but yet not of ſuch Biſhops, for ſixe hundreth yeres after Chriſt were paſt, before ye Biſhop of Rome was takē to be vniuerſal Biſhop and head of the Church: all the Biſhops for yt ſpace or at leaſt the moſt of them were godly men, & ſome of them ſuffred martyrdome. As for the other matter which is the fall of Antichriſt by the breath of the Lords mouth, it is a marueilous cléere teſtimony which wee may vſe to proue the pope to be Antichriſt. What I pray ye is the breath of the Lords mouth but the goſpel preached? by what other meanes hath this beaſt bin ouerthrowen? when he had gotten al the kings in ſubiection, and ſworne vntounto him, when not one durſt mooue warre againſt him, but ſayd who is able to warre with the beaſt: how hath the Lord brought him downe but by the Goſpel? And looke in the Reu. 14. Reuel. 14.There he ſaith, he ſaw an Angel flying in the midſt of heauē, hauing an euerlaſting Goſpel to preach to them that dwel vponupon the earth, to eueryevery nation, tribe, tongue, and people, ſaying with a loude voice: Feare God, & giuegive glory to him &c. And by & by it followeth, that another Angell followed, ſaying, She is fallē, ſhe is fallen, Babylon the great citie &c. Is it not manifeſt by this, that whē the preachers ſhould publiſh the Goſpel (for that Angel doth ſignifie the miniſters of the Goſpel, whom he doth call Angels in the 1. chap.) Babylon ſhould be caſt downe: his kingdom ſtood by worſhipping of creatures, therfore whē the Goſpel doth wil men to feare God, and to giuegive glory to him, and not to worſhip creatures, ſtraightway he cōmeth down. I would wiſh all men to conſider this.
Pa.
Do you make account that the pope is fallē: or can ye ſay that he is fallen, becauſe a number are fallen from him? They are fallen and not he. I hope in God to ſee him ſet vp againe. If ye hauehave no better matter then this, to ſhew his fal, it is no matter.
Pro.
I cannot tell what yee count to bee fallen: ſure I am of this, his credite is marueilouſly cracked. He yt had knowen him 60. yeres agone, and ſhould looke vponupon him now, would ſay he were nothing ye man he was, for he hath bin in a ſore cōſumption, & none of all his phiſitions can tel which way to cure him. Then he could ſhoote out thunderbolts ouer a great part of the world, and kings would quake at them: now eueryevery man dare come within the noiſe of the crack & feare no danger at al. We muſt not think yt he ſhould be vtterly deſtroyed at once, for the contrary is plainely to be gathered out of the Reuelat. Reade the 16. Reuel. 26.chap. ye ſhal find thus: The fift Angel powred forth his vial vponupon the throne of the beaſt: and his kingdome was darkened, & they did gnaw their tongues for ſorrow. Here ye ſée a beginning which doth fret at the guts: and cauſe ye to bite for anger. Then it followeth that the ſixt Angel powred foorth his viall vponupon the great riuer Euphrates, &c. Yet the kingdome of the beaſt is not vtterly caſt downe, although his munition bee throwen downe. For it doth by and by follow: I ſawe thrée vncleane ſpirits like vntounto frogs comming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beaſt, & out of the mouth of the falſe prophet: then he ſaith, they are the ſpirits of deuils, working wōders which go vntounto ye kings of ye earth to moue thē to battel. Surely I ſee no cauſe why we may not take your Ieſuits to be of theſe frogs: do not they go forth into kingdoms to remoue rebellions & wars? is it not to hold vp ye beaſt▪ & that by al ſuch wicked & diueliſh means as there can be no worſe.
Pa.
The Ieſuites be holy men, and do no more but that which is their duetie, by the appoyntment of their great ſhepheard. They labour to vpholde Peters chayre, and the trueth: and therefore they doe it not by any vnlawfull meanes; much leſſe by ſuch wicked & diueliſh meanes as you do charge them. I will not ſtand to reaſon with ye about thoſe places which ye apply againſt ye pope, I doubt not but they may be anſwered wel enough with ſilēce.
Pro.
The Ieſuites muſt néeds be holy men, or elſe the Iebuſites could not: for they hauehave almoſt as many letters in their name as they had, I ſuppoſe in déed that they do all at the appointment of their ſhepheard: for from whence ſhould we look for ſuch holy-déeds, but from ſo holy a father. They labour to vpholde Peters chayre, and to throw downe Paules doctrine. Trueth in déed is vpholden by trueth, and néedeth no falſehoode to help her: which is a moſt manifeſt argumēt that you hauehave not the truth, becauſe as I ſayd ye do vphold it by all wicked and diueliſh meanes.
Pa.
A man would ſuppoſe to heare you ſpeake generally that yee had great matters, but when yee come to make good in particular, then there is nothing. Ye are to be likened to an emptie barrell, which if a man knocke, giueth a luſtie ſound, but pull out the ſpigot, and there commeth not forth one drop. What are thoſe wicked and diueliſh meanes? ſhew them.
Pro.
I perceiue you will both knocke and pull out the tap alſo: and néeds I muſt by broching ſomewhat, let ye ſée your want of ſkill, which did not knocke néere enough to the bottome. I pray ye tell me, are lies and forgeries diueliſh?
Pa.
No man doth denie but they are, can yee charge ye Catholikes with any? if there be any thing which is not in all points true, ye muſt not by and by condemne it, when as it is to a good ende: as namely to keepe the people in deuotion & in awe.
Pro.
True it is, when ye ſay, your forgeries and lies which are out of all number, were to kéepe the people in awe, and to terrifie them, & ſo hold them in a fooliſh blind deuotion. This ye did when your kingdome ſtoode, let anie impudent papiſt in the world denie the dunghill of groſſe lies in the legend and feſtiuall, & ſome other bookes of yours. Very childrē may laugh to heare them: if I ſhould reckon them, or ſtudie to reckon them, I néede no other penance inioyned me. But of thouſands a few, as theſe: when the diuell came to tempt S. Dunſton, he held the diuell by the noſe with a hot paire of tongs, & cauſed him to rore & crie out: it ſéemeth it was ſome yong diuel, which had a tēder noſe. A rich man which neuer had done good déed in his life, but only in anger did throw a loafe at a poore mans head, when he died the diuell came for his ſoule becauſe he had done neuer a good déede: on the other ſide our Lady ſhe claymed the ſoule, becauſe he had giuen a loafe to a poore man: the diuel he replied, that it was no good déed, becauſe he did it not of deuotion, for thē he muſt hauehave béen ſaued. In fine, the matter was ſo hard to iudge whoſe he was, yt he was ſent againe into the body. He was not admitted to to goe to heauen nor to hell, nor yet to Purgatorie. But it ſéemeth our Lady was ſomwhat too haſtie, for being no better man, ſhe ſhould firſt hauehave let him bin well fried in Purgatorie, & ſo peraduenture ſhe would but that the diuell was ſo greedy that he would not tarrie. She did not wiſely neither, for what a number of ſoules might ſhe loſe, caught by other diuels whiles ſhe was pleading for this. S. Katherine did vowe her ſelfe to bee married to none but Chriſt, and therefore the Virgin Marie did appeare to the holy Hermite Adrian, & ſent him to bring Quéen Katherine to a place where ye mariage ſhould be ſolēnized: which was a goodly gorgious Abbey erected for that vſe: where a multitude of glorious virgins did méet the new bride, & bring her in, where ſhe was maried to Chriſt, in the preſence of the bleſſed Lady, whō they ſalute as Quéene of heauen, Lady of the world, & Empreſſe of hell, ſhe biddeth her new daughter welcome, ſhe caried her into ye quier to Chriſt, who tooke her by the hand, & ſo was maried vntounto her, & put a ring vponupon her finger, & did charge her to kéepe it in remēbrance. There was ſuch a glory at that mariage as neuer the like: the bleſſed Virgin alſo ſo glad of her new daughter; and Chriſt of his new wife, muſt néedes cauſe excéeding ioy. Our bleſſed Lady came often among ye in thoſe dayes: and now ſhe doth ſcarce viſite ye once in ſeuen yeares. What ſhould be the cauſe, is ſhe wearied, or hath ſhe conceiued ſome diſpleaſure againſt ye? I pray ye tell me.
Pa.
You are diſpoſed to play and ſport your ſelfe. What if ſome did write ſuch things which were their owne deuiſes? Is the Church to be blamed: and if ſo be they were allowed by the church, you are not to be taken for an indifferent Iudge: becauſe you do not vnderſtand them. If the bleſſed Virgin did then appeare often, it might be becauſe they were then more worthy, or ſome other cauſe which we know not. Is it not enough now, although ſhe do not appeare, that ſhe heareth the prayers of thoſe which cal vponupon her, & helpeth thē.
Pro.
If I play becauſe I recite ſome part of your diuinity: how did your good ghoſtly men play which deuiſed them. Yea how did your Antichriſtian Synagogue play in ſetting them forth to be read openly to the people, and that in the Church. Your blind ſhiftes cannot ſerue the turne. Your vaine ſpéech is not worth the anſwering. Ye ſhall pardon me, if I procéede a little further in the declaration of your holy lyes. Ye hauehave a goodly hiſtorie (if the booke of lyes be true) of Saint Kenelme once king ouer ſome part of England: wherein you hauehave many a faire myracle. The ſtory is very long, and therefore I muſt tell but the ſumme of it. King Kenelme had one ſiſter which was a wicked woman, & hated him, conſpired his death, with Aſheberd his gouernour: who going abroad with the king, which being heauie and layd downe to ſléepe, the traytour made a pit & purpoſed to kill him: but he awoke and tolde him he did labour in vaine: God would not hauehave him killed there. He gaue him a ſmall rod, and told him, that where he ſhould ſet it in ye earth, there he ſhould be martyred. Then this traytor wēt forth together with him vntounto a Hawthorne, and there he pight the rod, & forth with it bare leaues and grew vp, & ſuddenly waxed a great Aſh trée, which doth ſtand there vntounto this day, & is called Kenelmes Aſh. He ſmote off his head there, and buried his body in a valley betwéene two high hils. Then Quendred his wicked ſiſter was glad, and was Quéene. Now although the body did lie in vnhallowed buriall, yet no man durſt take it vp, for feare of Quendred the Quéene. But a poore widow had a white cow which was eueryevery day driuen into the wood of Clēt, where ſhe would depart from the reſt of the kine, and goe into the valley, and there did reſt all the day ſitting by the corps, and at night returned home, neuer eate meate, and yet was fatter and gaue more milk then any of the kine. This thing did continue certaine yeres. Afterward as the Pope was at Maſſe in Rome, there came a white Doue, and let fall a ſcroll vponupon the Altar, in which was written thus in letters of golde: In Clent, in Cowbage, Kenelme king borne, lieth vnderunder a thorne, his head off ſhorne. The Pope and all his could not tell the meaning thereof, vntill an Engliſh man did expound it. The Pope did ſend to the Archbiſhop of Canterbury, & willed the body ſhould be taken vp. They came to the place which they knew by the white cow: they digged vp the body, and in the place there did ſpring vp a well, which is called Kenelms well vntounto this day: where many of the people hauehave béen healed. When they had vp the body, it was brought to the Abbey of Winchcomb. By ye way they were ſo drie that they fainted: The Abbot of Winchcombe pitched his croſſe downe, & there ſprang vp a well. Before they came at the Abbey all the bels did ring without mans hand. Quendred demanded wherefore the bels did ring, it was told her that ye body of her brother was taken vp, and that the bels did ring alone. That is euen as true ſayd ſhe, as both mine eyes are fallē out of my head vponupon this booke. And by and by both her eyes fell vponupon her Pſalter, vponupon which ſhe was reading, and it is ſéene to this day where they fell vponupon the booke. This is all as true, as any lye in the world may be.
Pa.
What of all this, how can you tell whether this were true? Why might it not be ſo?
Pro.
It might bee true as well as the reſt of all your lying wonders, which yee coyned to ſeduce the blinde people into Idolatry. Ye had gotten this aduantage to perſwade that the Pope could not lye nor erre. And therefore whatſoeuer ye did inuent, although it were neuer ſo groſſe, it would be credited: not onelyonly when they prayed to an Image to make them beléeue that it did ſweate in taking paynes to pray for them, and rowle the eyes: but alſo all your fained wonders, of which I will yet giuegive a little further taſte. For although they may ſéeme vnprofitable to bee vttered, yet becauſe they declare your ſpirit of lying, whereby Antichriſt is knowne: there is vſe in them. What a goodly ſtorie is there of your Saint Dominike? When he was at Rome, hee ſawe in a night Ieſu Chriſt in the ayre, holding thrée ſpeares, & brandiſhing them againſt the world: and his mother ran haſtely againſt him, & demaunded what he would doe. He ſayd, all the world is full of vices, and therefore I will deſtroy them with theſe ſpeares. Then ſhée fell downe at his féete and ſayd: Deare ſonne hauehave pitie, & tarie thy iuſtice by thy merciemercy. He ſayd, Thou ſéeſt what iniuries they doe me. She ſaid, Son temper thy wrath & tarie a little: I hauehave a ſeruant a noble fighter againſt vices, he ſhal run ouer al & vanquiſh thē vntounto thée. And I ſhal giuegive vntounto him another ſeruant to help, ye ſhal fight as he doth. And our Lord ſaid, I am appeaſed. But I would ſée who they be. Then ſhe ſhewed him S. Dominike, and S. Francis, and he praiſed them. Here the bleſſed Lady did helpe at a pinch, or elſe all had bin marred. Theſe her two Apoſtles which ſhée did ſende forth, euen the two Friers, Saint Dominike and S. Francis, were woorth all the twelue Apoſtles of Chriſt. There were certaine Ladies heard S. Dominike preach, which had bin ſeduced by heretikes: which knéeled down at his féete, and told him their caſe, prayed him to helpe them. He had them tarry a little, and they ſhould ſee what Lord they had ſerued. Anon they ſaw ſpring out of the middle of them a cat right foule and horrible, which was bigger then a great dog: which had great flaming eyes, a broad tongue, and bloody, ſhe had a ſhort tayle, out of which iſſued a terrible ſtink. She turned her about among the Ladies a while, and afterward mounted vp by the bell rope into the ſtéeple, and went away, leauing a foule ſtinke behind her. Thus were theſe good Ladies deliuered by holy S. Dominike. After S. Dominike was dead he healed many, & rayſed vp ſundry from death. The bleſſed Virgin S. Mary might doe the Pope now a great good turne, to giuegive him two ſuch as Dominike and Francis: and it may be if he beg hard and call lowde enough, ſhe will heare him.
Pa.
Goe too, you hauehave theſe things out of the Legend: who did euer allow it to be canonicall? What ſhould we regard what is ſpoken there? Ye may be better occupied.
Pro.
If it were not allowed, why did Frier Iohn of Vignay tranſlate it out of Latin into Engliſh? Why had it this price ſet vponupon it to excell all other bookes as far as gold doth excel all other mettals? And therefore is called Legenda Aurea, that is to ſay, Golden Legends. The feſtiuall, which was read vponupon Saints daies in the church, doth fetch as many authorities out of the Legend, as out of the Scriptures. I perceiue you are loth to heare any further: & therefore I will tell the leſſe. What ſay ye to that good Lady which was ſo deuout in the ſeruice of the bleſſed Virgin: and yet at a time vponupon the purification her Prieſt was from home, ſo that ſhe could not hauehave Maſſe. Neuertheleſſe ſhe went into her Chappel and praied to the bleſſed Virgin, ſo long vntill ſhée fell on ſléepe. At the laſt ſhe ſaw a great companie of goodly Virgins, and one glorious Virgin aboue the reſt. She ſaw alſo one come in with a bundle of candles. She ſaw a prieſt goe to Maſſe with two Deacons, which were Laurence and Vincent: The prieſt was Chriſt. EueryEvery one had a candle giuen them light, and ſo had ſhe: two yong Angels began the introite of the Maſſe: the Angels bare the Tapers, before the prieſt all the virgins did ſing ye Maſſe. When the offering came, eueryevery one brought their candle, and they ſtayed for this woman which did not come with hers, the great Ladie ſent to her two times, and yet ſhe would not come. She ſent the third time to pray her to offer her candle, or elſe to take it from her. She would not: then the meſſenger laid hold of the candle, he pulled and ſhe pulled ſo long, that the candle was betwéene them pulled in péeces, he had one end, and ſhe another, and withall ſhée did awake and found the péece of candle in her hand. Then ſhée did know certainly ſhée had heard Maſſe, and thanked God and our bleſſed Lady. Surely they did her wrong, for they ſhould hauehave awaked her firſt, and then hauehave bid her offer her candle. If I had béen as this Lady, I would hauehave made much of that péece of candle. For it is like that ſome Chaunler in heauen made it. For Chriſt & the Angels occupie candles, whenſoeuer they ſay Maſſe. If I ſhould tell all the tales of holy S. Anthonie, which fought with a number of diuels: of good S. Patrike, which in Ireland did finde out Purgatorie: of pitifull S. Francis: of chaſt Saint Hagnes, which yet was ſo gentle to be wooed, that at diuers times ſhe would holde forth her finger to receiue a ring. Indéede I doe not remember that ſhe did receiue any but of prieſts: by which it doth appeare ſhe loued them well. If (I ſay) I ſhould tell all of theſe and a number moe, I cannot tell whether you Papiſts might be iudged the greater liers for deuiſing, or I the greater foole for rehearſing. To bée ſhort, he that will come to your dunghill, hée can light no where amiſſe dig where hée will, he ſhall finde it ſpade déep. Let him come with his dungcart as oft as hee will, he ſhall ſoone fill it. I ſuppoſe the diuell hath well emptied his bags among ye.
Pa.
I told ye, I hauehave nothing to do with thoſe things, if yee can ſhew any forgeries among vsus now: the things which are paſt, wee cannot iudge of them.
Pro.
That which is bred in the bone, will not out of the fleſh. Yee hauehave it ſo naturally in ye to lye, that ye cannot leaue it. Ye are not aſhamed to falſifie the Scriptures, the ancient writers, and Councels: ye are not aſhamed to deuiſe and ſpread abroad foule ſlaunders, againſt ſuch men as GOD rayſed vp to throw downe Antichriſt. Although it bée of things impoſſible, yet tell it and a number beléeue it. As for exāple, a great Biſhop of yours did preach in open aſſemblie, that the Diuell came like a trimme fellow, fell in louelove with a mans daughter, begat her with childe, which was Martin Luther. Is it like that the Diuell could beget children now in his old daies? and yet I know it goeth for paiment among the ignorant blind papiſts. A number of things ye deuiſe againſt Caluin, Beza and others, which are euen as true as that.
Pa.
Theſe men were ſo good that a man need not to deuiſe any thing of them: he may find euen enough of that which is true: and too much to be told.
Pro.
You are not ſure of it, although ye affirme it.
Pa.
Yes I am very ſure of many things.
Pro.
Did ye euer know any of theſe men: or hauehave ye ſéene their conuerſation?
Pa.
What though I hauehave neuer knowne any of them, nor ſeene their conuerſation. I hauehave heard enough, and that by ſuch as I may beleeue.
Pro.
If that bee ſufficient, yee might hauehave heard of Chriſt that he had a diuell,Matth. 9. and by as credible men as you hauehave any: likewiſe that he was a glutton,Matth. 11. and an vnmeaſurable drinker of wine, a friend of Publicanes and ſinners. Ye might hauehave heard many things alſo againſt S. Paul. This is the equitie which is among you Papiſts. Some one of ye doe deuiſe a lye, and then ye toſſe it from one to another, vntill at the laſt it hath a paſſeport giuen it from ſuch credible men, that it may go where it wil. But I will let this paſſe, and come to ſome other of your wicked meanes, by which yee labour to ſtay vp the rotten chayre of Antichriſt. I will come yet to greater and more ſhamefull villanies, which trueth neuer néedeth, becauſe the Lord doth ſupport her.
Pa.
Can you finde ſuch matters againſt vsus, and not ſee your ſelues? I warrant ye, that which ye doe accuſe vsus of is to be found in you: howſoeuer ye accuſe vsus, and excuſe your ſelues.
Pro.
Where can ye finde that euer ye truth was maintained by periuries, and breaking couenants? Let a man reade and reade again, among all Heathen men, Turks, and Iewes, where ſhall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed, that they might ſweare and forſweare to deceiue, and not make conſcience to kéepe the oth? Among you this is a principle, faith is not to bee kept with heretikes. Which alſo yee doe from time to time put in practiſe. It is not to bee looked for that you ſhould ſticke to make lyes, when yee dare publiſh it to the world in writing, that ye may lawfully forſweare your ſelues, and breake the faith which ye hauehave giuen by oth. By this meanes ye hauehave cōmitted very horrible ſlaughters, and cruell murthers: the like whereof hauehave ſcarſely béen heard of. Are theſe practiſes of God, O ye bloody, periured, forſworne wretches? Doth the holy Ghoſt leade men into ſuch kind of dealing? no verely, it is the ſpirit of the father of lyes, of periuries, of murthers, which ye are lead withall. Gods ſpirit is the ſpirit of trueth, hee neuer teacheth men to lye, and to deale falſly: and therefore thoſe people are bewitched, which think the Pope & his adherēts to bee lead by the ſpirit of God: when as they be ſo full of all abominable treacheries.
Pa.
What ſhould we meddle with theſe things: I cannot tell how a man ſhould perſwade you, to ſee the authoritie of the Church. You iudge of all things after your owne reaſon. I hauehave no delight to deale in theſe matters: I will not ſay that which I could ſay.
Pro.
I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in theſe matters. It were a great deale better if they were kept cloſe among your ſelues. For now no man that is wiſe will truſt ye, neither vponupon promiſe nor yet vponupon oth, which ye breake ſo often. There be many goodly rules which ye deuiſe now ſecretly among your ſelues. But what ſhould you go about to perſwade with me in theſe matters, which am not firſt perſwaded how great authoritie the Church hath? For ye hauehave none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow theſe things. Gods word doth curſe and condemne periuries and murders committed by ſuch treacheries. To diſpute out of that for the maintenance of them, yee know yee ſhall hauehave but a cold ſuite of it. It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aſide, and to ſet forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things. He is of another maner power then men wéete. The GOD which hath ſpoken in the Scriptures, can doe nothing nor ſay nothing but trueth: but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will, and to ſay what hee liſt, whether it bee true or falſe. This is a mightie God, he can play both faſt and looſe at his pleaſure. Let a thing bée neuer ſo much commended by God in ye Scriptures, if he ſay it is naught, then is it naught. So on the other ſide, whatſoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill, he hath power to make it good. This is the cauſe why you ſay many are deceiued, they looke but to the Scriptures, and forget this God, which hath power ouer the Scriptures.
Pa.
If you may accuſe what ye liſt, then it were well. But let vsus ſee wherein the Pope hath challenged any ſuch power.
Pro.
HaueHave not I ſhewed ye already in ſome part, as in lyes, murders and periuries? Will ye hauehave more? what ſay ye to treaſons and rebellions? Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treaſon? Doth he not diſcharge ſubiects of their obedience and ſubiection to their Prince? Doth he not giuegive any of them leaue to kill their Prince? and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious? What diuell can goe further then this? Doth not God ſet vp Princes, and hath not hee put the ſword into their hands? Doth not he charge men to bée ſubiect & to obey them? Doth not he ſay, that whoſoeuer doth reſiſt them, doth reſiſt the ordinance of God? and that thoſe which doe reſiſt, do purchaſe to themſelues damnation. O ye traiterous wretches, doe ye not ſée that yée draw all thoſe into damnation, & vnderunder Gods curſe, whom ye draw from their louelove and obedience towards their Prince? Let all men conſider this: hath a greaſie balde Prieſt of Italie, power againſt Gods word, to giuegive leaue to ſubiects and inferiour perſons in England, to play the vilaines and traytors againſt their ſoueraigne prince, whom God hath ſet ouer them: for whoſe defence God doth require at their hands to giuegive their liues? Shal the foule beaſt of Rome hauehave power to reward yt déede in heauē, which God hath threatned to puniſh in hell? Let all the people of this land conſider this, and ſhun ſuch filthy & abominable men. Some will ſay, wherefore ſhould wee eſchew them being honeſt? If ranke traytors be honeſt, then are all the Ieſuites, Seminaries, and popiſh prieſts, with ſuch as louelove and harbour them, to be counted honeſt.
Pa.
I ſee more and more that I cannot preuaile by ſpeaking, and therefore I will giuegive ye ouer, ſay euen what ye liſt. I ſee it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke. I could anſwere ye to the full, if it might doe good. Thus much I will ſay, that it is one thing to commit treaſon againſt a prince which is godly: and another thing, to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince. The ſubiects indeede may not diſobey and rebell: but when the prince is no right prince, then they are no longer ſubiects. What ſay ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges? did not he ſlay Eglon king of Moab, and that vnderunder colour of a meſſage? What ſay ye to Iehoiada the prieſt? did not hee cauſe them to ſlay Athaliah, when ſhe had reigned certaine yeares, and ſet vp Ioaſh to bee king? If the prieſt of the law had this power, how much more the prieſt of the Goſpell?
Pro.
Ye would giuegive me ouer now, ye ſay, but your traiterous heart is ſo full that it will not ſuffer ye. Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people, whom ye may draw to your opinion: or with ſuch as ye know to beare the ſame minde that you doe. Among theſe ye dare be bolde to reaſon the matter to the full. But this I ſay vntounto ye, let the diuell bring his note booke with him: let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the ſkill they can: yet the word of God ſhall ſtill be able to beate them downe in this matter, to proue that ſubiects incurre damnation, when they rebell againſt princes, which are the miniſters of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring, I will ſhew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for. And then I will let ye ſee, how it is to be proued by the law of God, that ſubiects hauehave no ſuch power againſt their princes: but that eueryevery priuate man doth very horribly rebell againſt the Lord God, which rebelleth againſt the powers ſet vp by God.
Pa.
Howſoeuer yee may ſeeme to dally with thoſe examples which I hauehave alleaged, yet ſure I am, they proue that which I doe alleage them for, both yt it is lawful to kil wicked princes, & alſo by colourable dealing: for we hauehave example of the one in Ehud, and of the other alſo in Iehoiada.
Pro.
I will maintaine that which I hauehave ſaid, and ſhew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for. It is ſet forth in the Iudges, that Iſrael had done euill in ye ſight of the Lord, and he made Eglon king of ye Moabites to preuaile againſt them, & to bring them into ſeruitude. When the children of Iſrael cried vntounto the Lord, he raiſed vntounto them a deliuerer, euen Ehud. Afterward it is ſet foorth how he came, went with a preſent to Eglon, deſiring to ſpeake with him alone, and ſo ſlew him. Conſider well in this ſtorie, firſt, how Eglon was an vniuſt vſurper,Iudg. 3. oppreſſing Iſrael like a cruell tyrant where he had no right. Secondly, Ehud is no priuate man, but raiſed vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer. Wherefore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon, euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight againſt ſuch as inuade his land, and to kil thē. Laſtly, where Ehud did it colourably, we may not draw it into an exāple, becauſe it was done by an extraordinary ſpirit: which ye pope cannot giuegive to other, becauſe he hath him not himſelf. If he could giuegive to a priuate man, that ſpirit which Ehud had to warrāt him, thē were it ſomwhat. As for the example of Athaliah the mother of king Achaſia,…. King. 11. after ſhe ſaw her ſon was dead, did ariſe & murder al ye kings ſéed, or the blood royal, and ſo vſurped the kingdome: ſhe was neither lawful Quéene, nor yet to be ſuffred to liue, becauſe ſhe had cōmitted ſo horrible and cruel murder. Wherfore Iehoiada, in whoſe cuſtody the yong king was ſecretly kept, whē he brought him forth to be crowned, did not by his owne right ſet vp a king, whō it pleaſed him: but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right, & to put downe the wicked murderer & vſurper. This now maketh nothing at all for the pope, whē he taketh vponupon him power to depoſe kings at his pleaſure, and to ſet vp whom he ſhall thinke good.
Pa.
I ſee well a man cannot bring you to ſee the power which the prince of the Apoſtles had, and now his ſucceſſor hath for to depoſe princes. What ſhould a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth?
Pro.
Chriſt Ieſus whē he was deſired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land: anſwered,Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider? Wherby he doth euidently ſhew that he had no ciuil authority, no not in ye leaſt cauſes: for els hee would not hauehave ſaid, who made me a iudge: much leſſe he had authoritie in the higheſt matters, as to depoſe kings. And for this cauſe when Pilate did aſke him, if hée were a king, he did anſwer:Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world: & likewiſe he did teſtifie his ſubiection to ye Emperor,Matth. 17. when he & Peter did pay tribute. How thē doth it come to paſſe that the pope ſhuld chalenge to hauehave that becauſe he is M. vicar, which neither Chriſt nor Peter had? No, he hath it not yt way, but becauſe he is the man of ſin which hath exalted himſelfe aboue all that is called God. Moreouer, what ſayth Chriſt to his Apoſtles? The kings of the nations rule ouer them,Matth. 10. and they that are great exerciſe authoritie ouer them: but it ſhall not be ſo among you. I pray ye ſir, if the Apoſtles might not be as kings & princes, how had Peter this power to be king of kings, or how cā a prieſt in Italie, becauſe (as he ſaith) he is the ſucceſſor of Peter, hauehave this high dignitie, to be ſo farre aboue kings? Ye muſt néeds confeſſe, vnleſſe ye will be wilful, that the Pope can hauehave no ſuch power neither from Peter, nor Chriſt: they doe both renounce him. Then I reaſon thus, (as I ſaid before) Princes are ſet vp by God: he hath made them his ſubſtitutes here on earth, he hath not alone giuen them ye ſeate and the ſword, but alſo hee hath clothed them with glorie, & put vponupon them as it were of his owne robes, when he calleth them Gods. We are cōmanded to be ſubiect, to honor and obey, not to reſiſt vnderunder paine of damnation. If they command any thing which is diſagréeing to Gods will, they hauehave not that power ouer our conſcience: wee muſt obey God rather then man. Neuertheleſſe we are ſtil ſubiects to that power which they hauehave receiued from God. And being but priuate men, we muſt ſay with Dauid, God forbid that I ſhould lay my hand vpō my maſter the king, the Lords annointed. I ſay therefore that your Ieſuites, or whoſoeuer fauour them (which know their practiſes) are traytors before God and man: becauſe they dare lift vp their hand againſt their ſoueraigne prince, placed in the throne by the high God, and ſubiect to no creature in earth. I ſay therefore let all men take héede of your curſed and damnable waies. Let all men ſée, that your kingdome is not of God, which ye vpholde by treaſons, periuries, lyes, murders, and all kind of euill meanes.
Pa.
All is nought of our ſide, and all good of yours. Ye are ſo malicious that whatſoeuer we do ye condēne it, your charity doth ſhew what ye are.
Pro.
We muſt néeds ſay all that is nought, which God ſaith is ſo. I confeſſe our charitie and yours are not al one, for the charitie of you papiſts, is a burning louelove. Ye can both louelove a man, and cut his throte alſo. The Lord defend his people from ſuch Vipers: which ſting to death, when they be gentleſt of all. But Idolatrie is alwaies cruell, & cannot be maintained, but with diueliſh and bloody mindes.
Pa.
I know ye doe account vsus to be Idolaters, and ſo ye do call vsus, but we are as far from it as you be: wee condemne it, and hate it more then you do. And although ye goe about to abuſe and wreſt the ſcriptures againſt vsus, yet ye ſhall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worſhip of God.
Pro.
Will ye confeſſe if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the falſe Church, and that ye are fallen away from the trueth, that the Pope is Antichriſt.
Pa.
I muſt needes confeſſe that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth: but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie, I ſay ſtill wee be the furtheſt frō it of all other. And in this I think my ſelfe ſufficiently armed to ſtand againſt all the heretikes in the world, proue what ye can.
Pro.
Al thoſe which worſhip idols, are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters. But it ſeemeth you Papiſts doe not worſhip idols: at leaſt ye would beare men in hand ye doe not, when as in very déede ye doe it in moſt ſhamefull maner. Where hath it euer béene heard of that men hauehave more doted vpō ſtocks and ſtones, then the Papiſts? Wil ye ſtil then be paſt ſhame, and ſay you hate idolatrie, you are furtheſt from it of all other?
Pa.
I ſay ſtill, and neede not be aſhamed, that it is the blindneſſe of you heretikes, which either cannot or will not ſee that ours is no Idolatrie. This ſin of Idolatrie is where they worſhip Idols: wee hauehave images of the true God, of the bleſſed Virgin, of the Apoſtles, and of other Saints: wee hauehave no idols of feined and falſe Gods: wee worſhip not the images themſelues neither, but the things which are by them repreſented. Moreouer, we doe not giuegive latria to the images of Saints, but dulia, which God in the ſcriptures doth neuer condemne. I ſay therefore ye helpe vsus when ye ſay we worſhip ſtocks and ſtones, or that we worſhip any beſides the true God. You are the idolaters your ſelues.
Pro.
You would faine purge and cléere your ſelues from idolatrie, and therefore ye hauehave deuiſed theſe diſtinctions: firſt, ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image, yours are Images but not Idols. Secondly, ye ſhift the matter that ye do not worſhip ye Images themſelues, but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of. And laſt of all, your déepe diſtinction betwéene latria, which is worſhip, which ye giuegive onelyonly to God, and dulia, which is ſeruice, which ye beſtow vponupon the Saints. I will lay open how vaine theſe things are: and yet how they be ſubtill to deceiue poore ignorant ſoules.
Pa.
I know your anſwers well enough, ye take vponupon ye to defend, that an Idoll and an Image are all one. And ſo when it is ſaid, God made man after his owne Image, yee may tranſlate it after his owne Idoll. It may be ſaid of the picture & image of the prince, this is the princes Idoll. Likewiſe if a painter paint an image of a dog, ye may ſay this is an Idoll of a dog. Ah Sirs this is ouer groſſe, ye ſhew by this what your skill is in other things.
Pro.
Now muſt ye néeds win the ſpurres, becauſe wee ſay that Image and Idoll is all one: ſauing that the one is Greeke, and the other Latin. Ye ſay, thē we muſt ſay God made man after his owne Idoll: which were very groſſe. I confeſſe that in our tongue it were groſſe indéed, becauſe the word Idoll is by common vſe of ſpéech taken alwaies in euill part, but in the Gréeke tongue it was not ſo. But I will come néerer vntounto ye, to ſhew your deceitfull dealing in this: ſhall wee deſire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue, in the ſcriptures: in which it is ſaid, that God made man after his owne image, and in which there is much ſpoken of idols? What if I proue that hee vſeth the ſame word where hee ſpeaketh of idols, which he vſeth where hee ſaith, God made man after his owne image? Will there then be ſuch a difference?
Pa.
When I ſee this, then I will beleeue it, before I will not: the Scriptures do ſpeake of images, & it may be there is the ſame word. But you muſt proue it where hee doth ſpeake it of thoſe which were idols indeed, of the heathen, & of falſe gods.
Pro.
I wil ſhew where he ſpeaketh of idols indéed which were worſhipped by the heathē, and proue that he vſeth the ſame word. The word in Moſes is Tſelem, after which Adam was created: Gen. 1. Now looke where hee ſpeaketh to the children of Iſrael by Moſes, to command them to break down the idols of the heathen, and ye ſhall finde the ſame word. As Numb. 33. He ſaith, ye ſhall deſtroy Tſalme, Maſſecotham, that is their moulten images. In the 2. booke of Kings, chap. 11. it is ſaid, They went into the houſe of Baal, and brake downe his images, which he calleth by ye ſame name. By this it doth appeare, that in the holy ſcriptures there is no ſuch difference betwéene idol and image, as the Papiſts would beare men in hand. For theſe were idols by their owne confeſſion, which yet are ſet forth vnderunder that ſame word, which Moſes vſeth for the likenes of God, after which man was created.
Pa.
All this doth proue nothing, for wee doe grant that which ye hauehave ſaid. Becauſe idols be alſo images, although eueryevery picture and image bee not an idol: for an idol is an image which is worſhipped and taken to be God.
Pro.
It doth proue this, for which I did alleage it, that the ſame word is in that tongue vſed indifferently for the image of GOD, and for the idols of the heathen. But becauſe ye ſay it doth proue nothing, ſéeing idols be images, although eueryevery image is not by and by an idol, vnleſſe it be worſhipped. Let me demand this: Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll?
Pa.
I know no man which doth deny, but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid. But you muſt go further then that: for ye muſt proue that thoſe which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images: and ſo images and idols to be all one.
Pro.
Ye ſay right, for thoſe which the ſcripture condemneth, we muſt cōfeſſe to be idols: then if I proue that the ſcripture doth condēne images, it muſt néeds follow that they be idols. I require no more, for it is manifeſt that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God, as in Deuterono. 4. there is forbidden not onelyonly Semel, but alſo Temnuah and Tabnith. And in Eſay 40. Demuth. Who will bee ſo mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden: and therefore that images are idols.
Pa.
I ſee no cauſe why I ſhould not deny it, for they were alſo idols, becauſe they were made to be worſhipped.
Pro.
I ſée no cauſe why I may not eſtéeme you to be obſtinatly blinded. Becauſe in theſe places which I hauehave cited, he doth not onelyonly ſpeake of the true GOD, but alſo the reaſons which are ſet downe to forbid the images, doe diſproue not onelyonly the worſhipping, but alſo the very making. For why doth Moſes tell them, ye heard the voyce of words, when God ſpake, but yee ſaw no ſimilitude? Why doth Eſay ſet forth the incomprehenſible greatnes of the Lord: but to conclude as he doth, that there can no ſimilitude be made of God? And therefore this concluſion doth ſtand ſure, that images in the Scripture and idols bee all one. And therefore the Papiſts do but iuggle when they ſhift their hands of idolatrie in this maner: we doe not worſhip idols, we do but ſerue images. Ours be the images of the true God: and we take them not to bee any more then images. If this would hauehave ſerued the turne, the Iſraelites might hauehave anſwered to Moſes, and Eſay, well enough.
Pa.
Are ye of the minde that eueryevery picture or image of God is forbidden to bee made, although a man doe not worſhip it. Doth the Scripture ſay any ſuch thing?
Pro.
I muſt néedes be of that minde, when I hauehave the words of the cōmandement, Thou ſhalt not make, &c. and not onelyonly thoſe places which I did alleage with reaſons to forbid the making, but alſo other reaſons: as namely, that GOD dwelleth in light which none can come vntounto, whom neuer man ſaw, neither can ſée, as S. Paul ſaith. Againe,1. Tim. 6. Acts 17. the ſame Apoſtle telleth, that the Godhead is not like ſiluer or golde, &c. Againe, God is incorruptible, man is mortall: which reaſon is vſed in the 1. chap. to the Romanes. Sundry things may bée ſpoken to ſhew that an image is a teacher of lyes: and therefore accurſed and abominable before God. For it is wicked to lye of a man: but moſt abominable to tranſforme God into an heape of lyes: as when a man ſaith, this is the picture of God: then muſt it be taken to be like God: or els why is it his image more thē another thing: theſe lyes then are in it, God is inuiſible, this is ſéene: God is aliue, this is dead: God is incomprehenſible, for the heauen of heauens cannot containe him, this is contained in a ſmall roome: God is almightie, this hath no power: God is glorious, and incorruptible, this is ſubiect to ruſt and corruption: yea to conclude, it is nothing but lyes, becauſe it doth neither in ſhape, becauſe God is a ſpirit, and that is a groſſe ſubſtāce, neither in any property ſet forth that which is in God, but the quite contrary. If any ſhould picture your Pope like a dog or a toade, ye would not take it well: and yet hee is liker to either of theſe, then the Lord is to any image: yée doe more diſgrace him when ye picture him like any creature, then ye can doe to any man to picture him like a toad.
Pa.
What though it bee not like him in ſome poynts, is it therefore to bee condemned? If men ſhould worſhip it, that were euil: but we worſhip that which it doth repreſent.
Pro.
I am out of doubt that ye worſhip that which the image doth repreſent: that is not God, for it doth not repreſēt him in any point, but it is the diuell, who is the father of lyes, and therefore the father of images which are full of abominable lyes. But you papiſts hauehave a prety conueiance, when ye beare men in hād, that Idolaters are they, either which worſhip falſe gods, or which worſhip the images themſelues, of the true God. As though either the heathen men were ſo groſſe, or the Idolaters among the Iewes, as to take the image it ſelfe to be God. Thoſe are poore men which know not that.
Pa.
The Iewes did worſhip the calfe it ſelf, and take it to be God. The heathen did take their Idols to be Gods: and therefore they did worſhip them.
Pro.
To proue that theſe did not worſhip the idols themſelues, nor take them to bee gods: a few reaſons may ſerue. For if it be ſhewed that the heathen did not, then muſt it néedes follow that the Iewes did not: vnleſſe ye will make them which had more knowledge of God, to be more brutiſh then the other. Now for the heathen, S. Paul ſaith,Rom. 1. that which might bée knowne of God was manifeſt in them: which he expreſſeth to bee the eternall power & Godhead. If then the ſenſe of the Godhead could not bee rooted out of the hearts of theſe, much leſſe out of the hearts of ye Iewes. This thing is manifeſt in the heathen, that beléeued the gods and goddeſſes to be in heauen: & therfore they thought (as their writings do ſhew) that oftentimes they came downe from heauen, and appeared to them in the likenes of men and women. I néede not recite particulars.
Pa.
The heathen did beleeue that the idols were gods: els why ſhould S. Paul perſwade, Acts 19.that thoſe were not gods which are made with hands. The learned among the heathen, did thinke as you ſay, but not the multitude.
Pro.
Although the heathen did know that the idols were not the very gods themſelues, yet this perſwaſion of S. Paul was not néedleſſe, becauſe they did aſcribe a certaine diuinitie vntounto them: they thought the gods and goddeſſes came downe into them, and did there receiue honor. Euen as you papiſts thought of your idols, and therefore you would trudge a great way on pilgrimage. As for the other excuſe which ye make it is falſe: for when Paul and Barnabas came to Lyſtra,Acts 14. and had healed a man that was lame, did not all the multitude cry out, Gods are come downe vntounto vsus in the likenes of men? They took Barnabas to be Iupiter, and Paul to be Mercurie. And thē Iupiters prieſt came to hauehave offered ſacrifice vntounto them, as he had done to the idoll. The Iewes therfore which had ſéene the wonders which God wrought in Egypt & in ye red ſea, which had heard him ſpeak out of the fire, with ſo great terror: could not bee ſo brutiſh, as to think the Calfe which they ſaw Aaron make, to be the God indéed which had brought them out of Egypt, but the image to repreſent the ſame God, whom they ment to worſhip in it. Where the fooliſh papiſts may ſee that in this foule idolatrie of the Iewes, they neither did worſhip the idoll it ſelf: neither any falſe gods. You doe worſe then they, becauſe ye worſhip the idols of thoſe which are no gods: as of the virgin Mary, and other Saints.
Pa.
I tolde ye before that we doe not worſhip any image, but the thing repreſented: I ſayd alſo that we doe not worſhip the Saints: for wee giuegive not latria vntounto them, but dulia: which you can not proue to be any where forbidden. But you wil hauehave your owne ſaying to charge vsus with what ye luſt.
Pro.
We charge ye not with any thing but that which is eaſie to be proued: I hauehave ſhewed that the groſſe idolaters among the heathen did not take the very image to be God, neither did worſhip it, but that which it did repreſent. And now I tell ye, that as ye play the beaſts that way, ſo now ye play ye part of ſubtil fooles: which in ſeducing others, deceiue your ſelues. For this difference which ye make betwéene latria, and dulia, is not found in the ſcriptures. And beſides that, the word of God doth forbid to giuegive dulian to any but God.
Pa.
You hauehave ſet down two things which ye will neuer be able to proue: the one, that ye ſay there is no ſuch difference between latria and dulia: the other that dulia is to be giuen only to God. If ye cā proue theſe two, let vsus ſee a peece of your cūning.
Pro.
Our Sauiour Chriſt is a very competent Iudge in this matter: and he vſeth the one word for the other. For where it is ſaid in Moſes Deut. 6. and alſo 10. Thou ſhalt feare the Lord thy God, and him ſhalt thou ſerue: he doth expreſſe it in Matth. 4. Thou ſhalt worſhip the Lord thy God, & him onelyonly ſhalt thou ſerue: I cite it to this end, to ſhew that where Moſes hath ſet downe tagnabod, Chriſt doth tranſlate it by the Euangeliſt, latreuſcis: which is ſuffcient to ſhew that he put no difference betwéene them. To proue that dulia is forbidden to images, we néede goe no further then to the commandement, where he doth forbid to make them: and then he ſaith, Thou ſhalt not bow to them: neither ſhalt thou ſerue thē: for he vſeth the verbe gnabad. I might alleage ſundrie other places: as Pſalm. 97. where he ſaith, They ſhall be confounded gnobede peſel, which ſerue the grauen image. You blind Papiſts would pluck out mēs eyes, by your vaine ſhifts and fooliſh diſtinctions: you make a difference where there is none. If euer there were abominable and foule idolatrie committed in the world, either by Iewes or Pagans, or other, it is among you, ye goe, no doubt, as farre as euer did any. Now a daies the papiſts, at leaſt a number of them, doe waxe more craftie: they will not with their forefathers alow any thing to the idols themſelues: but al to the things which they repreſent: wheras in times paſt the controuerſie was whether the image was to be worſhipped with the ſame worſhip, that the firſt paterne that it did repreſent was? Some of your great clarks did affirme the one way, and ſome the other: for one part defendeth that the images of the Trinitie, and of the Croſſe were to bee worſhipped with latria, diuine worſhip: the other part doth reply that latria is proper only to God: and therefore not to be giuen to the images: they muſt adore thē with ſome lower worſhip. But ſhift how yée can, agrée or diſagrée among your ſelues, the holy word of God ſtandeth ſtill, condemning and accurſing ye as deteſtable Idolaters. For ſay what ye can, ye aſcribe and giuegive worſhip vntounto them.
Pa.
HaueHave ye by this proued, that dulia is to be giuen only to God?
Pro.
I ſuppoſe that it is proued, when the Scripture doth make no difference, but vſeth latria, and dulia in one ſenſe. For ye all confeſſe now that diuine worſhip is to be giuen only to God. Ye take dulia for a diuine ſeruice or adoration: doth it not then follow that God is robbed of his right, who is our Lord and wee his ſeruants? Now all may ſée, that are not obſtinate, that the Romiſh Church is not the true Church of Chriſt, becauſe ye commit idolatrie. I doe therefore conclude, that al which will hauehave ſaluation, muſt remoue themſelues from ye, and returne home to the ancient and true Catholike Church.
Pa.
I wonder with what face ye can ſpeake thus: ye would hauehave men depart from our church, as you ſay to the ancient & true Catholike church: when as ye cannot ſhew vsus that antiquitie: for maſters it is well knowne how yong your Church is. To the ancient Church, we would not deny to returne, if we were out of the way: but to you, which are newly ſprung vp, we may not.
Pro.
It is a ſtrange thing that men are ſo wilfull: we doe beléeue all the doctrine & faith, which the Prophets and Apoſtles taught and beléeued: we cleaue only to this, & admit none other, and yet your blind eyes cannot ſée what antiquitie we call ye vntounto. Wee are but men of late yeares, if the doctrine which wée teach be no elder, I would wiſh ye not to beléeue it. But ſeeing we bring nothing but that which was from the beginning, wee may boldly ſay that ours is the ancient Catholike Church: and therefore all thoſe which be not members of it cannot hauehave ſaluation. As for you, looke how farre ye are gone from the doctrine of the Prophets and Apoſtles, ſo farre are ye remoued from the true Catholike Church. Your doctrine is contrary to theirs, your Pope is nothing like Chriſt and his Apoſtles.
Pa.
I ſee that I cannot remoue you, nor you ſhal not remoue me. I muſt euen leaue ye as I found you. I am ſorie that ye are ſo far ſpent: yet I hope one day to ſee ye of a better minde. For a day will come when this geere will be better looked vponupon.
Pro.
I may not be remoued from that which I know moſt certainly to be the trueth: vntounto that which is moſt curſed lies. And as for you, I leaue ye to the Lord, no hope I ſee to winne yée: for the day which ye hope for, wée ſée that the Lorde hath hitherto miraculouſly diſappoynted yée: and hath brought to light your traiterous purpoſes. Our hope is that the ſame Lorde will ſtill protect our gracious Quéene and her honorable counſellors. Wonderfull great bleſſings hath GOD beſtowed vponupon vsus by her, and by them. For which as many as hauehave any drop of grace, cannot but giuegive heartie thankes and praiſe to the Lord, and ſure I am, that vnleſſe our ſinnes doe prouoke him, he is ready to beſtow greater. Although a great number of ye: euen as it were very diuels incarnate, doe enterpriſe and gape for her deſtruction, and the deſtruction of thoſe ouer whom ſhe doth ſpread her wings to couer them. Al good ſubiects within this realme, both to GOD and their prince, are bound in conſcience, not onelyonly to curſe, hate, and deteſt, from the bottome of their hearts, your helliſh and cruell practiſes: but alſo to lift vp their hands and hearts to heauen, and to powre out continuall ſupplications to the Lord, for the preſeruation of her Maieſtie, and her Counſell. Deſiring God to guide them with his ſpirit, to doe nothing but that which is good and pleaſing in his ſight: alſo to giuegive them al gifts of wiſedome and courage, and to multiplie their dayes, with true honour in this life, and eternall bleſſednes in the life to come. If men did ſée how néedfull this prayer is at this time, that this realme, & the poore Church of God in this realme may be in ſafetie: it would cauſe them in ſtead of a few ordinarie colde prayers in this behalfe, to ſend forth ſtrong cries into the eares of the Lord, and to powre out riuers of teares, to moue him to pitie and compaſſion. For when that greaſie prieſt of Italy doth ſet ye on, to ſpoyle vsus of all peace both for body and ſoule: and to take from vsus
End of the text · George Gifford, A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant (1599)