Answer to a Popish Pamphlet Called the Touchstone of the Reformed Gospel, Part 2 · Subpart 7
7 THat the Church can erre, and hath erred.
VVHichWhich he ſayeth is expreſlie contrary to Iſai. 59. 21. To which before I anſwer, I will ſtate the queſtion, and ſhowe what is trulie to be held of the Churches infallibilitie, to wit, as their owne Cardinall Turrecremata in his ſumma de Eccleſia lib. 2. cap. 91. declareth, ſaying, That the Church cannot erre, is ſo to be taken, that GOD doth ſo aſſiſt her even to the the end of the World, that there are ever ſome, albeit not all, who hauehave true faith which worketh by charitie, and who holdeth the true profeſſion thereof. As were the 7000. in Iſrael who had not bowed their knee to Baal, and the few orthodox, when (as Lyrnenſis ſpeakeh) The whole world groaned and wondred that it was become Arrian. But when the papiſts ſpeak of the Churches infallibilitie, they underſtand not the univerſal church, but the Roman and weſterne part thereof. Next they diſtinguiſh the Roman Church into the Collective Church, which is the whole number of Teachers and profeſſours. And into the Repreſentative, which is, Biſhops and others aſſembled in a generall Councell. And thirdlie, into the Virtuall Church, which they call the Pope, and to whom onlie in end they aſcribe infallibilitie, as Bellarmin teacheth lib. 4. de pont. cap. 2. and 3. And with him Suarez, Valentia and others.
Now to come to the places of ſcripture which he adduces. Firſt, I anſwere to them generallie, that none of them proveth the Popes infallibilitie, to whom only they aſcribe the ſame, 2. I anſwere to Iſai. 59. 21 that ſayeth, As for me, this is my Covenant with them (ſayth the Lord) my spirit that is upon thee and my words which I hauehave put in thy mouth ſhal not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy ſeed, nor out of the mouth of thy ſee…s-ſeed from hence forth and for ever▪ according to Hugo Cardinalis; That theſe words are ſpoken to Chriſt by the Father, (as Turrecremata alſo ſpeaketh) promiſing that God ſhould ſo aſſiſt his Church, and the Elect therin which are this ſeed ſpoken of, even to the end of the World, that there ſhould ever be ſome that ſhould hold the true profeſſion of faith. Which anſwere ſerveth alſo for Ioh 14. 16. 17. where Chriſt promiſeth to his Apostles the Comforter, who is the Spirit of truth. whom the World cannot receive. becauſe they are not Elect, and who ſhould dwell in them and be in them. as he is onelie in the Elect likewiſe.
The third place is Math. 18. 17. And if he neglect to heare the Church, let him be to thee as a Heathen & publican. To which I anſwere, that this place ſpeaketh onelie of a particulare Church. Which Papiſts granteth may erre, as alſo relateth onelie to diſcipline and Church cenſures, & not to doctrine or determination in matters of faith, but of fact and ſcandale.
The fourth place is, Epheſ. 5. 27. where it is ſaid, That he might preſent to himſelf a glorious Church without ſpot or wrinckle. Whereunto I anſwere. That their late Eſtius out of Auguſtin ſhoweth that the Apoſtle ſpeaketh, not of th… Church Militant, but Triumphant, and as ſhee ſhall be after the bleſſed Reſurrection, and this is alſo the expoſition of Ierome lib. 3. dial. cont. Pelag. as alſo of Primaſius & Thomas. (ſayeth hee.)
As for the Fathers whom he only citeth, but not their words, never one of them in theſe places doeth prove his point.
But before I leave this point of the Popes infall…bilitie, into which the Churches at laſt doth reſolve, I will inſiſt heerein a little more, ſeing it concerneth the whole Fabrick of poperie, and is the baſis whereon it ſtandeth, being that rock whereon the Church is built, as Bellarmin teacheth (lib. 4. de pont. cap. 2. & 3.) And will batter the ſame with four arguments furniſhed by thēſelves unto us. Wherof the Firſt is, That this very queſtion it ſelf amongſt Romaniſts. Whether the Pope may be depoſed for hereſie, preſuppoſeth that he may be an Heretick, and that he may be depoſed for hereſie, Bellarmin granteth (lib. 2. de pont. cap. 30. §. 5.) ſaying, Wee cannot deny, but that Pope Adrian with his Councell at Rome yea, with the whole eight generall Councell, thought that the Pope for Hereſie might bee judged, adde this alſo that the eſtate of the Church, (ſayeth he) ſhould be miſerable, if it ſhould be forced to acknowledge him for their Pastour, who were a ravening Wolfe 2. Howſoever it is now the moſt cōmon opinion that the pope cannot erre, yet, it is confeſſed that many Roman Catholick Doctours of great note, do maintayne the contrary, to wit, that hee may erre not only perſonallie, but alſo as Pope and judiciallie, which (as Bellarmin confeſſeth lib. 4. de pont. cap. 2.) was not onelyonly the opinion of Nilus, Gerſon, Almain, and the Doctours of Paris, but alſo of Pope Adrian the 6. & Alfonſus à Caſtro. To whom hee might hauehave added the Councels of Conſtance and Baſil, alſo Ockam, Michael Ceſenas, Cardinall Cameracenſis, and Cuſanus, Waldenſis, Picus Mirandula, Lyra, Canus, Eraſmus & their late Stella, with all others who mantaine that the Councell is above the Pope. Theſe two aſſertions then being directlie contradictorie, that the Pope cannot erre, & that the Pope (even as Pope) may erre, and this laſt being maintayned by famous Doctours and Councels of the Roma… Church, (as ſaid is) wee may not onlie ſee what ther bragged of unitie is, but alſo that papiſts hauehave no ſure ground of their faith at all, who build upon the Popes infallibilitie, ſo much controverted amongſt themſelves, and as yet in queſtion.
3. It is manifeſt that the Popes hauehave foullie erred de facto, & been Hereticks, therefore it followeth, that they may erre, and ſo are not infallible. And that they hauehave erred and beene Hereticks, is witneſſed by moſt famous Romaniſts, for it is manifeſt (ſayth Alfonſus à Caſtro (lib. 1. cont. hereſ. cap. 4.) That Pope Liberius was an Arrian, & Anastaſius the ſecond a Neſtorian, ſo likewiſe doth Canus teſtifie (Loc. Theol. lib. 6. cap. 8.) that Honorius was a Monothelite, and by the ſixth and ſeventh generall Councels cō demned as an Hereticks, and their late Didacus Stella on Luke 22. 30. ſhoweth that manie Popes have beene groſſe Hereticks and Idolaters, as Marcellinus (ſayeth he) who ſacrificed to Idols. Liberius who was an Arrian (as Platina and Bellarmin alſo witneſſeth, lib. 4. de pont. cap. 9) and Anaſtaſius the 2. who for the crime of Hereſie (ſayeth hee) was rejected of the Church, and manie others who perſiſted not in the Catholike faith, but were againſt the ſame. Wherefore (ſayeth their owne Lyra) on Math. 16.) It is evident that the Churches stabilitie conſiſteth not on men, either in regard of their eccleſtiaſticall dignitie, or ſecular, ſeing many Princes and Popes too, hauehave beene found to hauehave made Apoſtafie from the faith.
4. Out of their owne grounds I argue againſt the Popes infallibilitie thus. 1. If he hauehave any ſuch infallibiliitie, he hath it as he is Biſhope of Rome, and conſequentlie Peters alleadged ſucceſſour. 2. He cannot be Biſhope of Rome, but he muſt be in holie orders. 3. He can not receive orders (which papiſts call a ſacrament) but from him, who hath power to ordain or giuegive orders, upon which grounds that are granted, I reaſon thus, in reſpect That the validitie of a ſacrament dependeth upon the intention of the giver, as Bellar. teacheth (lib. 3. de juſtifi. cap. 8.) Which none can know but the giver. Therefore none can know that this Pope or any other, is or hath beene infallible, becauſe he cannot be ſo, except he be in holy orders from one that had power to give them, and that hee that had that power, had alſo an intention to give thē, (whoſe intention (ſayth Bellar.) none can knowe, and conſequentlie à primo ad ultimum, none can know whether ſuch a Pope be trulie Pope or no, & by a ſecond conſequence, whether he be infallible or no, according to the pretended priviledge as he is Peters ſucceſſour. And ſo upō what an unſure & ſandie foundation papiſts build their faith, and conſequentlie their ſalvation, let anie man judge. But I cannot admire enough Bellarmins impudency that ſayeth (lib. 4. de pont. cap. 2.) That all Catholicks agree in this, that if the Pope alone, or with a particular Councell decerne in any thing that is doubtfull, whether he erre, or not, yet hee is obedientlie to be heard by all the faithfull (ſayeth hee.)