Answer to a Popish Pamphlet Called the Touchstone of the Reformed Gospel, Part 2 · Subpart 32 – Subpart 33
32. THat the Saints pray not for us.
TO which point I anſwere firſt in generall, That the controverſie is not (as I ſpoke of Angels) what the ſaints in heaven out of their charitie do for the Church & their fellow brethrē in general, but what our duty is, & if it be lawfull for us to pray to thē in particular. Next I anſwere to the wreſted places of ſcripture which he bringeth to prove that they pray for particular men ordinarlie and in particular caſes, knowne unto them (as hee ſaid before) The firſt whereof is Revel. 5. 8. where, The twentie four Elders in heaven are ſaid to fall downe before the Lamb, having everie▪ o…e harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the ſaints. to which I anſwere, That Haymo, Beda, Aquinas, and Richard de S. victore, all expound theſe Twentie four elders to repreſent the church militant, ſaid to bee in heaven (as that woman Revel. 12. is ſaid to be) becauſe of their heavenlie diſpoſition and affections, & becauſe that this was repreſented in a heavenlie viſion to Iohn, and are ſaid to have Harps and golden vials, the ſpeech being borrowed frō the Leviticall Miniſtrie, as the Ieſuit Ribera ſhoweth, to expreſſe the ſpirituall worſhip of Chriſtians praiſes & prayer under the goſpell, as wee ſee foreprophecied, Mal. 1. 11.
The ſecond place of Canonicall ſcripture which he bringeth, is Ier. 15. 1. Tho Moſes and Samuel ſtood before mee, yet my mind could not bee towards this people. To which I anſwere 1. That the ſpeech is hypotheticall or by ſuppoſition, & therfore nowiſe concluding, as our Saviours like ſpeech ſhoweth Iohn 21. 23. 2. This cannot prove that Moſes and Samuell did pray for the people Being then till Chriſts Reſurrection in Limbus Patrum, as Bellarmin ſayeth, (lib. 1. de ſanctis, cap. 20) and ſo not injoying Gods ſight or preſence, and therefore they neither praied for men, nor wer prayed unto by men. And 3. This their praier is meant for the people of God onlie in generall, and not for any one in particular.
The third place is, Revel. 2. 26. Hee that overcometh and keepeth my words to the end, to him I will giuegive power over the nations, and hee ſhall rule them with a rod of iron. Therfore (ſayth he) ſeing Chriſt imparteth his power to them upon the nations, they may pray for them over whom they are ſ…t. To which their owne Ieſuite Ribera anſwereth thus, Our Saviour alogether ſpeaketh here of power (ſayeth he) that the ſaints ſhall exerciſe in the day of j…dgement, upon all nations that hauehave not obeyed Chriſt, judgeing them with Chriſt, and giving them over to the p…niſhment of eternall death, ſignified by ruling them with an iron rod, as wee ſee cap. 19. 15. Thus we ſee that they are ſo farre frō praying for them being alive, that they are to adjudge them to eternall puniſhment after death.
His laſt place is from the parable of the rich-glutton Luke 16. Praying to Abraham for his brethren, and it were abſurd (ſayeth he) that the damned in hel ſhould hauehave greater charitie than the ſaints in heaven. To which I anſwere 1. That this is a parable (as hath been proven) and therefore not argumentative. 2. The damned in hell hauehave no charitie or Chriſtian vertue at all, and therefore this Rich glutton did it not out of charitie to his brethrē, but to eſchewe the augmenting of his owne torment, by their continuance in theſe ſinnes, wherein he had given them ill example or inducement, when he was alive with them. 3. To argue from the practiſe of a damned Wretch in hell, which had ſo bad a ſucceſſe, as not to be heard, to alike practiſe which Chriſtians ſhould uſe on earth, is a bad inference, and a worſe directorie.
As for fathers, hee citeth onelie Auguſtin, Hilarie and Damaſcen, but not their words, of whom Auguſtin maketh nothing for him in that place, neither Hilarie, for what he ſpeaketh is onelie of Angels, grounded alſo upō an Apocryphall book onlie, Tobit. And as for Damaſcen (as I ſhew before) as hee is not of ſo great antiquitie, ſo alſo he is noted by Sixtus Senenſis in his Bibliotheck (lib. 6. Annot. 187.) to bee hereticall ſpeciallie concerning the proceſſion of the Holie ghoſt.
33 THat wee ſhould not beſeech God to grant our prayers for the ſaints merits, nor do we receiue any benefit thereby.
VVHichWhich he ſayeth is contrarie to Exod. 32. 13. where it is ſaid. Remember Abraham, Iſaac and Iſraell thy ſervants. To which I anſwere, That this was to remember his owne free promiſe which hee made to them, that he ſhould bee their God, & the God of their ſeed after them, as the very following words ſhoweth, ſaying, To whom thou ſweareſt by thy ſelf, and ſaid, I will multiplie your ſeed, as the ſtarrs of heaven, as their owne Lyra upon that place ſhoweth, and the ſubſequent place which he citeth proveth, 2. Chron. 6. 16. ſo that this was not to remember their merits, (which Iacob wee ſee utterlie diſclaimeth Gen. 32. 10.) but his own free promiſe and mercies.
The ſecond place is 2. Chron. 6. 16. Now therefore O Lord God of Iſraell, keepe with thy ſervant that which thou haſt promiſed him. Where we ſee againe clearly, no mention of merite on Davids part (which hee everie where alſo diſclaimeth) but only of the free promiſes of merciemercy made to David on Gods part, as we ſaid before.
The third place is, Exod. 20. 5. I will ſhowe merciemercy to thouſands of them that louelove me and keepe my Cōmandements, which place maketh clearlie againſt merit, wher the Lord ſpeaketh onlie of merciemercy, which he will ſhowe on the godlie and their ofſpring, as the Apoſtle ſpeaketh, 2. Tim. 1. 16. The Lord give merciemercy to the houſe of Oneſiphorus for he oft refreſhed me. And wher merciemercy is onlie, it excludeth merite.