The Grand Debate Between Bishops and Presbyterian Divines, Document 2 · Reply 19 – Section 27
Repl. The miſchiefs which you pretend, are Inconveniencies attending humane Imperfection, which you would cure with a miſchief; Your Argument from the abuſe againſt the uſe is a palpable Fallacy, which caſt out Phiſicians in ſome Countries, and rooted up Vines in others, and condemneth the reading of the Scriptures in a known. Tongue among the Papiſts; If the Apoſtles (that complained then ſo much of Diviſions, and preaching falſe Doctrines, and in envy and ſtrife, &c.) had thought the way of Cure had been, in ſending Miniſters about the world, with a Prayer-book, and Sermon-book, and to have tied them only to read either one or both of theſe, no doubt but they would have been ſo regardful of the Church, as to have compoſed ſuch a Prayer-book, or Sermon-book themſelves, and not leſt us to the uncertainties of an Authority not infallible, nor to the Diviſions that follow the Impoſitions of a queſtionable power, or that which unqueſtionably is not Univerſal, and therefore can procure no univerſal Concord. If one man among you draw up a form of Prayer, it is his ſingle conception: And why a man as learned and able may not be truſted to conceive a Prayer, for the uſe of a ſingle Congregation, without the dangers mentioned by you, as one man to conceive a Prayer for all the Churches in a Dioceſs or a Nation? we know not; Theſe words (That the miſchief is greater than the pretended good) ſeem to expreſſe an unjuſt Accuſation, of ordinary conceived prayer, and a great undervaluing of the benefits: If you would intimate that the Crimes expreſſed by you are ordinarily found in Miniſters prayers, we that hear ſo much more frequently than you, muſt profeſs we have not found it ſo (allowing men their different meaſures of Exactneſs, as you have even in writing) Nay to the praiſe of God we muſt ſay, that multitudes of private men can ordinarily pray without any ſuch Imperfection, as ſhould nauſeate a ſober perſon, and with ſuch ſeriouſneſs, and aptneſs of Expreſſion as is greatly to the benefit and comfort of ourſelves, when we joyn with them; And if ſuch general Accuſations may ſerve in a matter of publick, and common fact, there is no way for the Juſtification of the Innocent. And that it is no ſuch common guilt, will ſeem more probable to them that conſider, that ſuch conceived Prayers, both prepared and extemperate, have been ordinarily uſed in the Pulpits in England, and Scotland, before our dayes till now, and there hath been power enough in the Biſhops and others, before the Wars, to puniſh thoſe that ſpeak Ridiculouſly, Seditiouſly, Impiouſly, or Blaſphemouſly; And yet ſo few are the Inſtances (even when jealouſie was moſt buſy) of Miniſters puniſhed, or once accuſed of any ſuch fault in Prayer, as that we find it not eaſy to remember any conſiderable number of them: There being great numbers puniſhed for not reading the Book, for playing on the Lords dayes, or for preaching too oft, and ſuch like, for one that was ever queſtioned for ſuch kind of praying. And the former ſhewed that it was not for want of will to be ſevere, that they ſpared them as to the latter. And if it be but few that are guilty of any intolerable faults of that nature in their Prayers, we hope you will not go on to believe, that the miſchiefs that come by the failings of thoſe few, are far greater than the benefit of conceived prayer by all others. We preſume not to make our Experiences, the meaſure of yours, or of other mens. You may tell us what doth moſt good, or hurt to your ſelves, and thoſe that have ſo communicated their Experiences to you; But we alſo may ſpeak our own, and theirs that have diſcovered them to us. And we muſt ſeriouſly profeſs, that we have found far more benefit to our ſelves, and to our Congregations (as far as our Conference, and Converſe with them, and our obſervation of the effects alloweth us to diſcern) by conceived Prayers, than by the Common-Prayer-book, We find that the benefit of conceived Prayer is to keep the mind in ſerious Employment, and to awaken the affections, and to make us fervent, and importunate, And the Inconvenience is that ſome weak men are apt as in Preaching and Conference, ſo in Prayer to ſhew their weakneſſe, by ſome unapt Expreſſions, or diſorder, Which is an evil no way to be compared, with the fore-mentioned. good, conſidering that it is but in the weak, and that if that weakneſſe be ſo great as to require it, forms may be impoſed on thoſe few, without impoſing them on all for their ſakes (as we force not all to uſe Spectacles, or Crutches, becauſe ſome are purblind or lame) and conſidering that God heareth not Prayers, for the Rhetorick, and handſome Cadencies, and neatneſſe of Expreſſion, but will bear more with ſome Incurioſity of words (which yet we plead not for) than with an hypocritical, formal heartleſſe, lipſervice; For he knoweth the meaning of the Spirit even in the groans, which are not uttered in words; And for the Common-Prayer our Obſervation telleth us, that though ſome can uſe it judiciouſly, ſeriouſly, and we doubt not profitably, yet as to the moſt of the vulgar, it occaſioneth a relaxing of their attention, and intention, and a lazie taking up with a Corps, or Image of devotion, even the ſervice of the lips, while the heart is little ſenſible of what is ſaid. And had we not known it we ſhould have thought it incredible, how, utterly ignorant abundance are of the ſence of the words which they hear, and repeat themſelves from day to day even about Chriſt himſelf, and the Eſſentials of Chriſtianity. It is wonderful to us to obſerve that rational Creatures can ſo commonly ſeperate the words from all the ſenſe and life, ſo great a help or hinderance even to the underſtanding, is the awakening or not awakening of the Affections about the things of God; And we have already ſhewed you many unfit Expreſſions in the Common-Prayerbook, eſpecially in the Epiſtles and Goſpels, through the faultineſſe of your Tranſlations, as Eph. 3. 15. (Father of all, that is called, Father in Heaven and Earth) And that Chriſt was found in his Apparel as a man) That Mount Sinai is Agar in Arabia, and bordereth upon the City now called Jeruſalem) Gal. 4. 25. (This is the Sixth Month which is called Barren) Luke 1. (And when men be drunk) John 2. with many ſuch like, which are parts of your publick worſhip; And would you have us hence conclude, that the miſchiefs of ſuch Expreſſions are worſe, than all the benefits of that worſhip: And yet there is this difference in the Caſes, that weak & raſh Miniſters were but here and there one; But the Common-Prayer is the ſervice of every Church, and every day had we heard any in extemporary Prayer uſe ſuch unmeet Expreſſions, we ſhould have thought him worthy of ſharp reprehenſion, yea though he had been of the younger or weaker ſort; Divers other unfit Expreſſions, are mentioned in the Exceptions of the late Arch-Biſhop of York, and Primate of Ireland, and others (before ſpoken of) And there is much in the prejudice or diſeaſed Curioſity of ſome hearers, to make words ſeem Idle, Impertinent, or Ridiculous which are not ſo (and which perhaps they underſtand not) ſome thought ſo of the inſerting in the late Prayer-book, the private opinion of the Souls departed praying for us; and our praying for the benefit of their prayers; As for the ſecurity which you call for, (though (as is ſhewed) you have given us none at all againſt ſuch errors in your forms, yet) we have before ſhewed you, that you have as much as among imperfect men can be expected: The ſame that you have, that Phyſitians ſhall not murther men, and that Lawyers and Judges ſhall not undoe men, and that your Pilate ſhall not caſt away the ſhip, you have the power in your hands of taking or refuſing as they pleaſe or diſpleaſe you, and of judging them by a known Law for their proved miſcarriages, according to the quality of them, and what would you have more.
[To prevent which miſchief the former Ages know no better way, §. 5.than to forbid any Prayers in publick, but ſuch as were preſcribed by publick Authority: Con. Carthag. Can. 106. Milen. Can. 12.]
Repl. To what you allege out of two Councils, we anſwer, 1. The Acts of more venerable Councils are not now at all obſerved (as Nice 1. Can. ult. &c.) nor many of theſe ſame which you cite. 2. The Scripture, and the conſtant practice of the more antient Church allowed what they forbid. 3. Even theſe Canons ſhew that then the Churches thought not our Liturgy to be neceſſary to their Concord: Nor indeed had then any ſuch form impoſed on all, or many Churches to that end. For the Can. of Counc. Carth.) we ſuppoſe you meant Council 3. Can. 23.) mentioneth Prayers even at the Alter, and alloweth any man to deſcribe and uſe his own Prayers, ſo he do but firſt, cum instructionibus fratribus eas conferre, Take advice about them with the abler Brethren. If there had been a ſtated form before impoſed on the Churches, what room could there be for this courſe. And even this much ſeems but a Caution, made newly upon ſome late abuſe of Prayer. The ſame we may ſay de Concil. Male Can. 12.: If they were but a prudentioribus tractata, vel comprobata in Synodo, new Prayers might by any man at any time be brought in, which ſheweth they had no ſuch ſtated publick Liturgy as is now pleaded for. And even this ſeemeth occaſioned by Pelagianiſme, which by this Caution they would keep out.
We hope your omiſſion of our 8th. deſire (for the uſe of the new Tranſlation) intimateth your grant that it ſhall be ſo; But we marvel then that we find among your Conceſſions, the alteration of no part but the Epiſtles and Goſpels.
[As they would have no Saints dayes obſerved by the Church, ſo no N. 9.Apocriphal Chapter read in the Church, but upon ſuch a reaſon, as would exclude all Sermons, as well as Apocripha, viz. becauſe the holy Scriptures contain in them all things neceſſary either in Doctrine to be believed, or in duty to be practiſed; if ſo, why ſo many unneceſſary Sermons? why any more but reading of Scriptures? If notwithſtanding their ſufficiency, Sermons be neceſſary, there is no reaſon why theſe Apocriphal Chapters ſhould not be as uſeful, moſt of them containing excellent diſcourſes, and rules of mortality, it is heartily to be wiſhed that Sermons were as good; if their fear be that by this mean… thoſe Books may come to be of equal eſteem with the Canon, they may be ſecured againſt that by the Title which the Church hath put upon them, calling them Apocriphal, and it is the Church's testimony which teacheth us this difference, and to leave them out, were to croſs the practice of the Church in former Ages.]
Repl. We hoped when our deſires were delivered in writing they would have been better obſerved and underſtood: We asked not (that no Apocriphal Chapter may be read in the Church,) but that none may be read (as Leſſons) for ſo the Chapters of holy Scripture there read, are called in the Book, and to read them in the ſame place under the ſame title, without any ſufficient note of diſtinction, or notice given to the people that they are not Canonical Scripture, they being alſo bound with our Bibles) is ſuch a temptation to the vulgar to take them for Gods Word, as doth much prevail, and is like to do ſo ſtill. And when Papiſts ſecond it with their confident affirmations, that the Apocriphal Bookes are Canonical, well refelled by one of you, the R. Reverend Biſhop of Durham,) we ſhould not needleſly help on their ſucceſſe. If you cite the Apocripha as you do other humane writings, or read them as Homilies, (when and where there is reaſon to read ſuch) we ſpeak not againſt it,) to ſay that the people are ſecured by the Churches calling them Apocripha, is of no force, till experience be proved to be diſ-regardable, and till you have proved that the Miniſters is to tell the people at the reading of every ſuch Chapter that it is but Apocriphal, and that the people all underſtand Greek ſo well as to know what Apocripha ſignifieth. The more ſacred and honourable are theſe Dictates of the holy Ghoſt recorded in Scripture, the greater is the ſin, by reading the Apocripha, without ſufficient diſtinction to make the people believe that the writings of man are the Revelation and Laws of God; And alſo we ſpeak againſt the reading of the Apocripha, as it excludeth much of the Canonical Scriptures, and taketh in ſuch Books in their ſtead, as are commonly reputed fabulous. By this much you may ſee how you loſt your Anſwer by miſtaking us, and how much you will ſin againſt God, and the Church, by denying our deſire.
[That the Miniſter ſhould not read the Communion Service at the N. 10.Communion Table, is not reaſonable to demand, ſince all the Primitive Church uſed it, and if we do not obſerve that golden Rule, of the venerable Council of Nice, Let antient cuſtomes prevail, till reaſon plainly requires the contrary: We ſhall give offence to ſober Chriſtians by a cauſeleſſe departure from Catholick uſage, and a great advantage to enemies of our Church, than our Brethren I hope would willingly grant, The Prieſt standing at the Communion Table, ſeemeth to give us an invitation to the holy Sacrament, and minds us of our duty, viz. To receive the holy Communion, ſome at leaſt every Sunday, and though we neglect our duty, it is fit the Church ſhould keep her ſtanding.]
Repl. We doubt not but one place in it ſelf is as lawful as another, but when you make ſuch differences as have miſleading intimations, we deſire it may be forborn. That all the Primitive Church uſed when there was no Communion in the Sacrament, to ſay Service at the Communion Table, is a crude aſſertion, that muſt have better proof before we take it for convincing, and it is not probable, becauſe they had a Communion every Lords day: And if this be not your meaning, you ſay nothing to the purpoſe: To prove that they uſed it when there was none; And you your ſelves deviſe many things more univerſally practiſed than this can at all be fairly pretended to have been. The Council of Nice gives no ſuch golden Rule as you mention; A Rule is a general applyable to particular Caſes, the Council only ſpeaks of one particular; Let the antient Cuſtom continue in Aegypt, Lybia, and Pentapolis, that the Biſhop of Alexandria have the power of them all;) The Council here confirmeth this particular Cuſtom, but doth not determine in general of the Authority of Cuſtom. That this ſhould be called a Catholic uſage ſhews us how partially the word (Catholick) is ſometimes taken. And that this much cannot be granted, as leaſt we advantage the enemies of the Church, doth make us wonder whom you take for its enemies, and what is that advantage which this will give them; But we thank you that here we find our ſelves called Brethren, when before we are not ſo much as ſpoken to, but your ſpeech is directed to ſome other (we know not whom) concerning us, your reaſon is that which is our reaſon to the contrary, you ſay (The Prieſt ſtanding at the Communion Table ſeems to give us an Invitation to the holy Communion, &c.) what when there is no Sacrament by himſelf or us intended? no warning of any given? no Bread and Wine prepared? Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Therefore we deſire that there may be no ſuch ſervice at the Table when no Communion is intended, becauſe we would not have ſuch groſſe diſſimulation uſed in ſo holy things, as thereby to ſeem (as you ſay) to invite Gueſts when the Feaſt is not prepared, and if they came we would turn them empty away. Indeed if it were to be a private Maſs, and the Prieſt were to receive alone for want of Company, and it were really deſired that the people ſhould come, it were another matter; Moreover there is no Rubrick requiring this ſervice at the Table.
[It is not reaſonable that the word Miniſter ſhould be only N. 11.uſed in the Liturgy, for ſince ſome parts of the Liturgy may be performed by a Deacon, others by none under the Order of a Prieſt, viz. Abſolution, Conſecration, it is fit that ſome ſuch word as Prieſt, ſhould be uſed for thoſe Offices, and not Miniſter, which ſignifies at large every one that miniſters in that holy Office, of what Order ſoever he be; The word Curate ſignifying properly all thoſe who are truſted by the Biſhops, with Cure of Souls, as antiently it ſignified, is a very fit word to be uſed, and can offend no ſober perſon. The word Sunday is antient. Juſt. Mart. Ap. 2. And therefore not to be left off.]
Repl. The word (Miniſter) may well be uſed in ſtead of Prieſt and Curates,, though the word (Deacon) for neceſſary diſtinction ſtand; yet we doubt not but (Prieſt) as it is but the Engliſh of Presbyter) is lawful; But it is from the common danger of miſtake, and abuſe that we argue. That all Paſtors elſe are but the Biſhops Curates, is a Doctrine that declares, the heavy charge and account of the Biſhops, and tends much to the eaſe of the Presbyters minds if it could be proved. If by (Curates) you mean ſuch as have not directly by divine Obligation the Cure of Souls, but only by the Biſhops Delegation.) But if the Office of a Presbyter be not of divine Right, and ſo if they be not the Curates of Chriſt, and Paſtors of the Church, none are; And for the antient uſe of it, we find not that it was ſo from the beginning: And as there's difference, between the antient Biſhops of one ſingle Church and a Dioceſan that hath many hundred, ſo is there between their Curates. But why will you not yield ſo much, as to change the word (Sunday) into the (Lords Day) when you know that the latter is the name uſed by the Holy Ghoſt in Scripture, and commonly by the antient Writers of the Church, and more becoming Chriſtians. Juſt. Mart. ſpeaking to Infidels, tells how they called the Day, and not how Chriſtians called it; All he ſaith is that on Sunday, that is ſo called by Heathens, the Chriſtians hold their meetings. See the uſage of the Church in this point in Auguſt. Cont. Fauſtum Manithaeum. Lib. 18. Cap. 5.
[Singing of Pſalms in Meeter is no part of the Liturgy, and ſo N. 1….no part of our Commiſſion.]
Repl. If the word Liturgy ſignifie the publick Worſhip, God forbid we ſhould exclude the ſinging of Pſalms: And ſure you have no fitter way of ſinging than in Meeter) when theſe and all Prayers conceived by private men (as you call the Paſtors) whether prepared or excemporate, (and by purity of reaſon-preaching) are caſt out, what will your Liturgy be? We hope you make no queſtion, whether ſinging Pſalms, and Hymns were part of the Primitive Liturgy, and ſeeing they are ſet forth, and allowed to be ſung in all Churches of all the people together) why ſhould they be denyed to be part of the Liturgy; we underſtand not the reaſon of this [N. 13. 14.] The 13. and 14. we ſuppoſe you grant by paſſing them by.
[The phraſe is ſuch, &c.] The Church in her Prayers uſeth no more offenſive phraſe, than St. Paul uſes, when he writes to the N. 17.Corinthians, Galathians, and others, calling them in general the Churches of God, Sanctified in Christ Jeſus, by vocation Saints, amongſt whom notwithſtanding there were many, who by their known ſins (which the Apoſtle endeavoured to amend in them) were not properly ſuch, yet he gives the denomination to the whole, from the greater part, to whom in charity it was due. And puts the reſt in mind what they have by their Baptiſme undertaken to be, and what they profeſs themſelves to be, and our prayers and the phraſe of them, ſurely ſuppoſes no more than that they are Saints by calling, ſanctified in Chriſt Jeſus, by their Baptiſme admitted into Chriſts Congregation, and ſo to be reckoned members of that Soeiety, till either they ſhall ſeparate themſelves by willful Schiſme, or be ſeparated by legal Excommunication, which they ſeem earneſtly to deſire, and ſo do we.]
Repl. But is there not a very great difference between the Titles, given to the whole Church (as you ſay from the greater part; as the truth is from the better part, though it were the leſſe) and the Titles given to Individual members, where there is no ſuch reaſon? we call the Field a Corn field, though there be much Tares in it, becauſe of the better part, which denominateth: But we will not call every one of theſe Tares by the name of Corn. when we ſpeak of the Church, we will call it holy, as Paul doth: But when we ſpeak to Simon Magus, we will not call him holy, but ſay (Thou art in the gall of bitterneſſe, and the bond of Iniquity, and haſt no part or lot in this matter, &c.) We will not perſwade the people that every notorious Drunkard, Fornicator, Worldling, &c. that is burried as a Brother, of whoſe Reſurtection to life Eternal, we have ſure and certain hope, and all becauſe you will not Excommunicate them. We are glad to hear of your deſire of ſuch Diſcipline: But when ſhall we ſee more than deſire: and the edge of it be turned from thoſe that fear ſinning, to thoſe that fear it not.
[The Connexion of the parts of our Liturgy is conformable to the Example of the Churches of God before us, and have as much dependence N. 16. §. 1.as is uſually to be ſeen in many petitions of the ſame Pſalm, and we conceive the Order and Method to be excellent and muſt do ſo till they tell us what that Order is which Prayers ought to have, which is not done here.]
Repl. There are two Rules of Prayer, one is the nature of the things, compared (in matter and order) with nature and neceſſity: The other is the revealed will of God in his word: In general the holy Scripture; more eſpecially the Lords Prayer: The Liturgy (for the greateſt part of the Prayers for daily uſe) is confuſed, by which ſoever of thoſe you meaſure it; You ſeem much to honour the Lords Prayer, by your frequent uſe of it (or part of it) we beſeech you diſhonour it not practically by denying it for matter, and order to be the only ordinary perfect Rule we know about particular Adminiſtrations, when it is but certain ſelect requeſts that we are to put up, ſuited to the particular ſubject, and occaſion, we cannot follow the whole method of the Lords Prayer, which containeth the heads of all the parts; where we are not to take in all the parts, we cannot take them in that order; But that none of all your Prayers ſhould be formed to the perfect Rule, that your Let any which is the comprehenſive Prayer, and that the body of your daily Prayers (broken into ſeveral Collects) ſhould not (as ſet together,) have any conſiderable reſpect unto that order, nor yet to the order which reaſon and the nature of the thing requireth, which is obſerved in all things elſe, and yet that you ſhould admire this, and be ſo tenacious of that, which in conceived Prayer you would call by worſe names than confuſions, this ſhews us the wonderful power of prejudice; We were thus brief in this exception, leſt we ſhould offend by inſtances: But ſeeing you conceive the order and method to be excellent, and to be willing to hear more, as to this and the following exception, we ſhall annex a Catalogue of defects, and diſorders, which we before forbore to give you: The Pſalmes have ordinarily an obſervabe method: If you find any whoſe parts you cannot ſo well ſet together, as to ſee the beauty of method, will you turn your eye from the reſt, and from the Lords Prayer, and chooſe that one to be your Preſident! or excuſe diſorder on that pretence.
[The Collects are made ſhort as being beſt for devotion as we obſerved before, and cannot be accounted faulty, for being like thoſe … §ſhort but prevalent Prayers in Scripture; Lord be merciful to me a Sinner; Son of David have mercy on us; Lord encreaſe our Faith.]
Repl. We do in common ſpeech call that a Prayer, which containeth all the ſubſtance of what in that buſineſſe and addreſſe we have to ſay unto God, and that a Petition which containeth one ſingle requeſt; uſually a Prayer hath many Petitions. Now if you intend in your addreſſe to God, to do no more than ſpeak a tranſient requeſt or ejaculation (which we may do in the midſt of other buſineſſe) then indeed your inſtances are pertinent. But why then do you not give over when you ſeem to have done, but come again and again and offer as many Prayers, almoſt as Petitions. This is to make the Prayer ſhort, (as a Sermon is that is cut into ſingle Sentences, every Sentence having an exordium, and Epilogue as a Sermon,) but it is to make the Prayers much longer than is needful or ſuitable to the matter; Do you find this the way of the Saints in Scripture? Indeed Abraham did ſo, when Gods interlocution anſwering the firſt Prayer, called him to vary his requeſt, Gen. 18. But that's not our caſe: The Pſalms and Prayers of David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Aſa, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, and the other Prophets, of Chriſt himſelf, Joh. 17. are uſually one continued ſpeech, and not like yours, (as we ſaid before.)
[Why the repeated mention of the Name and Attributes of God, ſhould not be more pleaſing to any godly perſon, we cannot imagine, or §. 3.what burden it ſhould ſeem, when David magnified one Attribute of Gods mercy, 26. times together. Pſal. 36. Nor can we conceive why the Name and merits of Jeſus, with which all our Prayers ſhould end, ſhould not be as ſweet to us as to former Saints and Martyrs, with which here they complain our Prayers do ſo frequently end: ſince the Attributes of God are the ground of our hope, of obtaining all our Petitions ſuch Prefaces of Prayers as are taken from them, though they have no special reſpect to the Petitions following are not to be termed unſuitable, or ſaid to have fallen rather caſually, than orderly.