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The World Possessed with Devils · Pierre Viret

The World Possessed with Devils, Dialogue 3 – Title page 2

¶The third Dialogue called white Deuilles.

Tobie, Ierome, Theophrast, Euſtace.

Tobie.

SEyng we are all agreed to talke of white Deuils, now yt wee hauehave talked of blacke Deuilles.

Eust.

And I am ready to heare what thou wilt ſaie, touching them.

Ierom.

Before Theophrastus enter into this matter, I thinke good to remember one poinct, whiche I forgate, when I talked of the difference, whiche wee ought to make, betwene blacke and white Deuils.

Tobie.

What is that?

Ierom.

It is, that as there is difference, betwene blacke & white Deuils, there are alſo diuers kindes of white deuils. For as ſome deuils are blacker one thē another, ſo ſome are likewiſe whiter one thē another.

Tobie.

I thinke thou meaneſt thereby, that ſome of thē hauehave fairer ſhewe of goodneſſe then other ſome hauehave, and can better counterfect the Angelles.

Ierom.

That is without doubt, and therfore in comparyng ſome with other ſome, thei maie ſeme to be blacke Deuils, which otherwiſe ſeme to be white.

Tobie.

I doe not well vnderſtand, what thou meaneſt.

Ierom.

I will make thee vnderſtande it by example. Seyng the Papiſtes, whiche reſiſt the Goſpell, be named Chriſtians as well as other, thei maie bee counted white Deuils, in compariſon of Iewes, Turkes and Painims, whiche declare thēſelues to be open enemies, bothe of Chriſt & his Goſpell: but if thou compare them with thoſe, that bragge of the title and reformation of the Goſpell, the perſecuting Papiſtes wil ſeme blacke deuils, when other ſhall ſeme white. For, thei be bothe falſe Chriſtians, but th'one hath a fairer ſhew then th'other, for he couereth hymſelf with the cloake of the Goſpell, & the reformation of theſame.

Tobie.

I vnderſtand thee very well, but let vsus now heare what Theophrastus hath to ſaie.

Theo.

The Euāgeliſtes ſaie not onelyonly,Marke. 5. that thoſe poſſeſſed wherof we ſpake before came & preſented thē ſelues before Chriſt,Luke. 8. but S. Marke and S. Luke ſaie farther,Matth. 8. that he of whō thei write, fell on his knees before Chriſt,The Deuilles worſhippyng and cōfeſſing Ieſus Chriſt. & worſhipped hym. And furthermore, all the thre Euāgeliſtes whiche hauehave written this ſtorie, witneſſe, that both theſe poſſeſſed cōfeſſed openly, that Ieſus Chriſt was the Sonne of God, yea, of the higheſt God.

Tobie.

Thei made almoſte as good a cō feſſion of Ieſus Chriſte,Ihon. 6. as ſainct Peter and his fellowes did.Matth. 8.

Theo.

But thei did it not with ſuche a hart, nor to ſuche an ende, for that thei wer Deuilles, whiche ſpake it by the mouthes of theſe poſſeſſed.

Tobie.

I thinke no leſſe. But what was the cauſe thinkeſt thou, that thei did ſo? for the Deuill hateth none ſo muche as Ieſus Chriſte, and feareth nothyng more then that Ieſus Chriſt ſhould bee eſteemed and acknowledged emong menne, for the true ſonne of God, as theſe Deuilles confeſſed.

Theo.

The Deuill honoured not Ieſus Chriſte, onelyonly by the mouthes of theſe poſſeſſed, but alſo by other, of whiche Sainct Marke and Saincte Luke make expreſſe mention.Marke. 1. Thei ſaie firſt,Luke. 8. that in the Sinagogue of Capernaum, there was a manne whiche had an euill Spirite, that cried out when he perceiued Ieſus Chriſt, and ſaied emongeſt other thynges, I knowe that thou art the holy one of God.

Tobie.

Wherefore did the Deuill call Ieſus Chriſt, the holy one of God?

Theo.

It is as muche to ſaie, as that he knewe Ieſus Chriſte, to be the holy one of holy ones,Ihon. 17. that is to ſaie, the true ſonne of God,Actes. 16. whō the Father hath ſent to ſanctifie mankinde: we read alſo in the Actes of the Apoſtles,The Soothſayer of Philip. that Macedonia in the toune of Philippi, there was a maide that had a ſpirite of ſothſaiyng, whiche gather maſtres muche gain with ſothſaiyng, ſhe followed Paule and his fellowes, and cried ſaiyng: theſe men are the ſeruauntes of the moſte high God, whiche ſhewe vntounto vsus the waie of ſaluation, and this did ſhe many tymes.

Tobie.

This Deuill whiche ſpake in this ſothſaiyng maide, made no mention of Ieſus Chriſte, in the wordes whiche he vſed to Paule and his fellowes.

Theo

Though he named not Ieſus Chriſt by name, yet he did hym the greateſt honor that might bee. For, praiſyng the Apoſtles and ſeruauntes of Ieſus Chriſt, as he praiſeth them, he declareth their doctrine to be of God, and to bryng true ſaluation vntounto mā. Now, ſeyng the Apoſtles taught, that this ſaluation was communicated to man, by Ieſus Chriſt, and by none other: this euill Spirite plainly confeſſed, that Ieſus Chriſt was the ſauior of the world, the true ſonne of God, and generally all ye doctrine contained in the Euangeliſtes, whiche he approued, in the approuyng of the Miniſters of theſame, becauſe thei preached it.

Tobie.

Thou haſte not yet tolde me,The confeſſiō and conſtrained praiers of Deuilles. why theſe euill ſpirites made ſuche confeſſion, and why thei ſhewed this honour to Ieſus Chriſt, whom the deuill goeth about with might and maine, alwaies to diſhonour.

Theo.

There are many cauſes that moued them ſo to doe. Firſt, when the Deuill muſt appere before God, he is like a tranſgreſſor, that cōmeth before his Prince and Iudge. Who, how wicked and rebellious ſo euer he be, is cōſtrained ſpite of his teeth to acknowledge hym his Prince & Iudge, & to confeſſe ye truth vntounto him of al his miſbehauior. For, if he will not confeſſe it willingly, the racke ſhall make him confeſſe it whether he will or no. So theſe Deuilles whiche were in theſe poſſeſſed, were in the preſence of Chriſt, not onelyonly as tranſgreſſors, whiche are brought before the Iudge, to hauehave ſentence of condemnation, but as tranſgreſſours, whiche the Iudge hymſelf tooke with the dee…e doyng, and which are preſently condemned, becauſe thei can not deny the fault, that thei were takē withall. For Ieſus Chriſt tooke theſe d…s exerciſing the greateſt crueltie that thei could, on theſe perſones whom thei had poſſeſſed, and ſeducyng the people as muche as was poſſible. And becauſe thei are perpetuall enemies of God, & are taken with the deede doing, and cannot reſiſt his power, thei are conſtrained by force to honor hym, & ſhewe hym homage, and to acknowledge and cō feſſe him to be ſuche as he is Thei do it likewiſe to flatter him, becauſe thei knew well inough that it bootes not to reſiſt hym by ſtrength, for he is ſtronger then thei.

Tobie.

Me thinketh that theſe words aagree very well with ye other words which the Deuils vſed to Ieſus Chriſt▪ For, thei cried?The cōplaint of Deuilles. What haſt thou to do with vsus Ieſus the Sonne of God?Math. 8. Art thou come hetherto torment vsus before the tyme?Mark. 5. Wee praie thee and charge thee by God,Luk. 8. that thou torment vsus not. It is alſo writtē, that thei beſought Ieſus very inſtantly, that he would not ſend thē out of the countrey, nor into ye bottomleſſe pitt, but if he would …aſt them out of the poſſeſſed, that he would giuegive thē leaue to goe amongſt the heard of Swine y• fed therby, and to remaine amōgſt them.

Theo.

The poſſeſſed of which S. Mark and S. Luke make mention, whiche was in y• Sinagogue of Capernaum, cried alſo: Oh what haſt thou to do with vsus Ieſus of Nazareth? Art thou come to deſtroy vsus?

Tobie.

By theſe wordes wee maie eaſily iudge,Marke. 5. that the worſhippyng confeſſiō and praier that theſe Deuilles made,Luke. 8. was but by conſtraint, and therefore proceeded not of any good will either of the poſſeſſed, or of the Deuilles that were in them, but by the power of God, whiche enforced and cō ſtrained them ſo to ſaie. Thei alſo did it, to obtaine gentler intreating at Ieſus hand, then thei deſerued.

Theo.

It wel appeareth, that thei know Ieſus Chriſt, but thei will not obeie hym, but reſiſt hym as muche as thei can. And though thei bee not able to reſiſt hym,The Deuilles deſire attonement. yet thei will, yet thei will fight againſt hym: but perceiuyng that thei be too weake and ouercome, thei giuegive hym faire words, thei beſeeche hym as their maiſter. And here it ſhould ſeeme that their furie and rage wer ſubdued, but it is but in ſhew and by force. Thei complaine of Ieſus Chriſte as if he did them wrong, or that he vſed them more vncurteouſly thē thei deſerued, and before their tyme be come. To bee ſhort…, thei deſire nothyng but peace and agreement.

Tobie.

And notwithſtanding, ſeing that the Deuill is authour of warre and ſtrife▪ peace can not greatly pleaſe hym.

Theo.

Alſo he deſireth not peace for that it pleaſeth him, but only to eſcape y• hands of Ieſus Chriſt. For he is … th… enemie whiche being beaten & ouercome, deſireth to get out of his enemies handes that hath ouercome him, yt afterwarde he maie more ſtrongly and cruelly warre againſt hym.

Tobie.

It is no maruaile though the deuill vſe this ſubtiltie and diſſimulation: for there are diuers men that … the ſame many tymes, not onelyonly towards m…n, but towards GOD himſelf. Wherefore, in my iudgement, we may wel compare them to theſe poſſeſſed, & make thē their fellowes.

Theo.

Tel me thy mynd more plainely.

Tobie.

I hauehave knowen diuers, that in tyme of health & proſperitie, hauehave not onelyonly giuen them ſelues ouer to the greateſt filthineſſe and miſcheef that is poſſible for any man to committ, but alſo hauehave openly withſtood God, as if thei would willingly defi… hym, and pluck him out of his celeſtiall Throne. But afterwarde when God hath laid his hand on them, either by greeuous and dangerous ſickneſſes, or by ſome other miſery and miſhap, ſo, that the daunger was extreame, thei then became good Deuils,Good Deuils when thei could do no more harme. like to thoſe of whom wee talke. Thou neuer ſaweſt more gētle, more tractable, nor more deuout people in outwarde ſhew. Thei are the beſt Catholiques that maie be found. Thei yeeld, thei promiſe to become the honeſteſt mē in ye world. They will neuer doe more amiſſe, but will liue a ſtraiter and holier life, thē holy Hermites themſelues. But when it is once paſt, and the daūger eſcaped, thei forget all that thei hauehave promiſed, and like wilde beaſtes that hauehave gotte their uerkes out of the coller, thei retourne to their firſt nature, and become worſe then euer thei were.

Theo.

There is nothyng that more manifeſteth thoſe ſortes of Deuiſſes and poſſeſſed,The Goſpell manifeſteth Deuilles. then the pure preaching of the word of God: it is then principally, that thei vſe thoſe wordes that the Deuils vſed whiche Ieſus Chriſt caſt out, whereof wee talked euen now. For there are many (but chiefly) Prieſts, Monkes, and other principall vpholders of Antichriſt, & of his ſinagouge, which is the Romiſh Court and Church,) whiche many tymes plaie the prankes of this Deuill. For thei reſiſt the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt, and thoſe that maintain and followe the ſame with might and maine, with fire and ſworde, and by al other meanes that thei can imagine and inuent. It is them that crie out againſt Ieſus Chriſt, and ſaye: What haſte thou to doe with vsus: why art thou come to tormēt vsus before our tyme? Suffer vsus in peace and quietneſſe, wee hauehave nothyng to ſaie to thee. I thinke Ierome, that thou haſt often heard, the enemies and perſecutours of the Goſpell, vſe ſuche like wordes.

Ierom.

It is ordinarie with the wicked enemies of God,The wicked accuſing of the Goſpell. to laie all the fault on the Goſpell, and on thoſe that faithfully fauor and followe the fame, accordyng to their duetie, as if thei wer rebelles, fraimakers, ſedicious, and troublers of common peace and quietneſſe.

Theo.

Wee hauehave manifeſt examples of this that thou ſpeakeſt,Luke. 23. as well in the Prophetes and Apoſtles,Actes. 27. as in Chriſt hymſelf, for theſe hauehave all been burthened, with the ſelf ſame accuſation.

Ierom.

The like maie be ſaied of all the Martyres, and other faithfull Chriſtians, whiche hauehave liued at all tymes in y• world. But to retourne to our talke, of thoſe Deuilles and poſſeſſed, I my ſelf hauehave heard ſome ere now, that hauehave fa…ed to the true Miniſters of the Goſpell, whom God had ſent to declare his truthe: who the Deuill ſent ye hether:The cōplaint of the newe poſſeſſed. What hauehave ye to doe here? Why …ary ye not in your owne countrey, ye runnagates: what hauehave you to doe with vsus? We hauehave nothyng to doe with you, we care not for you. Why ſuffer you vsus not in quietneſſe and peace? But I remember a pretie ſaiyng of a Curate once, to a Preacher that beganne firſte to preache the Goſpell in that countrey.

Theo.

Why, what ſaied he?

Ierom.

Why came ye ſo ſoone,The maner of gettyng of goodes by Prieſtes and Monkes. if ye had taried a while longer, all had been ours.

Theo.

What ment he by that?

Ierom.

He ment that if theſe newe preachers, had not come ſo ſone, and hauehave preached then yt Goſpell, which ſo ſore warreth againſt the Pope and all his Prieſtes and Monkes: thei would in ſmal tyme wt their falſe doctrine and Religion, with their abuſe and ſu…tle practiſes, eaſely hauehave ſcraped and gathered all the gooddes in the worlde to themſelues, and hauehave lefte little or nothyng to othes.

Theo.

He perceiued it very well: and therefore we maie liken hym and his fellowes, to thoſe deuils whiche crie: Why art thou come to torment vsus before our tyme?

Ierom.

Theſe kind of fellowes that ſaie, Qui noſtra toll…t inimicus eſt: he that taketh awaie ours, is our enemie. Thei regarde not whether thei hauehave gotten the gooddes that thei poſſeſſe, well or euill, wherefore thei eſteeme all thoſe to be enemies,To whom the goodes of the Churche belong. that in reaſon demaunde reſtitution of them, and declare that it belongeth not to theim, but that thei hauehave ſtolen it frō the churche, and poore members of Ieſus Chriſte. And becauſe thei hauehave gotten theſe greate riches whiche thei, their parentes and frendes inioye,The cloake wherewith the Prophetes of Antichriſt couer them. and whereby thei be maintained, and doe get daily more and more, vnderunder title of their falſe priſthood, Mōkerie, and falſe religion, thei crie out againſt thoſe that condemne their eſtate, as if thei were murtherers. For thei knowe that thei cannot bee long mainteined, if that coler or maſke be taken awaie, wherwt thei maſke and coue… all their falſhoode, abuſe, and blaſphemie.

Theo.

It is very hard for ſimple & ignoraunt men,The colour that the Deuilles complaint hath againſt Ieſus Chriſt. to knowe the wrong, that theſe enemies of the truthe, dooe to the true ſeruauntes of God, by reaſon of the Deuiliſh ſubteltie yt thei vſe, and their ſhameleſneſſe not vnlike theſe Deuils, that complained of Ieſus Chriſte: and aſked hym, what he ha… to dooe with them, as if he had offered them greate wrong, and warred againſte theim without reaſon. For, as for theim, it ſemeth that thei hauehave nothyng to ſaie, but that Ieſus Chriſt ſhould ſuff… thē in peace and quietneſſe: and therefore ye fault is not in them, as thei ſaie, that there is no agreement betweene Ieſus Chriſte and them, if Ieſus Chriſte did not trouble them, and were cauſe of all the ſtrife.

Ierom.

I am afraied if thou hold on,What is firſt to be conſidered in all controuerſie. that thou wilt become the deuills atturney, for it ſeemeth by thy talke, that thou giueſt a very good colour of reaſon to their cauſe.

Theo.

If wee ſhould onelyonly regarde the complaint of the Deuilles, without conſideryng the principall cauſe, whervpō this diſagreeyng is grounded, it might ſeeme that Ieſus Chriſt was in great fault. But we muſt conſider, who began the ſtrife.

Ierom.

Seeyng that God is the God of peace,1. Cor. 14. and not of ſtrife,Phil. 4. and the Deuill is a murtherer from the beginnyng,Ihon. 8. it is not to bee doubted, but that the Deuill is the aucthour of all the diſcord and ſtrife.

Theo.

I putt the caſe that a whorehunter or haude,The cōplain… of thoſe that doe wrong againſt thoſe that receiue wrong. ſteale awaie an honeſte mans wife, and the houſbande commeth, and demaūdeth his wife of this ruffian, that hath ſtollen her awaie, and reuileth this ruffian or haude, for the wrong that he hath dooen hym, and goeth to lawe with hym, whereby there ariſeth great ſtrife, I would aſke of thee who were in the faulte? Either the houſbande, who hath had this great wrōg, or the Rauiſher, who hath plaied hym this wicked pranke.

Ierom.

This whorehunter or ba…ed, hath as muche reaſon to complaine and … angrie, as hath a theefe or robber, whiche is called to account of theftes and robberies whiche he hath committed, and whiche is called to iudgement for theſame.

Theo.

It is certain, that ſuche fellowes would hauehave nothing to doe, with thoſe that thei hauehave wronged, neither with ſuche iudges, as ſhould call them to accoumpte; and pronounce ſentence againſt them.

Ierom.

But neuertheleſſe it followeth not, but that thei whiche hauehave been thus wronged, hauehave iuſte occaſiō to purſue their right. Neither doeth it followe, but that Iudges and Magiſtrates, dooe verie well execute their office, in condemnyng ſuche accordyng to their deſertes. And though thei crie out againſt thoſe whiche ſue thē: we hauehave nothyng to do with you, thei maie well be anſwered: but we hauehave to doe with you. For if the wicked and giltie might be quitte, and eſcape the gallowes with ſuche cōplaintes and cries, thei would al eſcape. And if there were reaſon in theſe cōplaintes, the Iudges and not the giltie ought to be condemned, thei that demaunde iuſtice, and not thei whiche hauehave cōmitted the fact and deſerued correction and puniſhement. Wherefore the common prouerbe is well verified in ſuche, as bothe offer wrong and complain, that the lambe hath troubled the wolues water, & he can bothe bite & whine.

Theo.

This is the greateſt wickedneſſe in the worlde, and yet it is daiely vſed againſt Ieſus Chriſt and his Seruauntes, whenſoeuer thei hauehave to doe with the wicked, and reproue them of their faultes, and goe about to bryng them vnderunder the yoke of the Lorde. This is the cauſe that thei crie out againſt the Goſpell: This is the meanes that thei trouble the world with.The cauſe why the wicked complain of the Goſpel▪ This is the cauſe that eueryevery man crieth againſt the ſeruantes of God: Let vsus accuſe them of fellonie. What ſaieſt thou Tobie?

Tobie.

You hauehave talked of Prieſtes and Mōkes, and ſuch other which you cal Papiſtes, how thei cōplaine as ſore wronged, becauſe thei go about to reforme them, accordyng to the word of God, but hauehave you no ſuch poſſeſſed among you? you yt …unt ſo much of the reformation of the Goſpel? But I promiſe you I will not accuſe you any farther in this matter, but will leaue it to Eustace, who ſhal go forward with it▪

Euſt.

As for me,Thei whiche abuſe the Goſpell makyng it ſerue to their owne gaine and affection. I knowe many, whiche liked the Goſpell well, when in the beginnyng their Preachers cried againſt the abuſe yt thei ſaid was in the Romiſh church, and in Prieſtes and Monkes. Thei liked well alſo, that the goods of ye church ſhould be taken frō Prieſts and Monkes, to hauehave the gouernmēt of them themſelues, vnderunder colour that the Prieſts and Monkes abuſed them, and that thei ſhould be put to better vſe, but God knoweth how euill thei are beſtowed vpō many, & in many places.

Tobie.

The worſt is,Thei that can not ſuffer to be reproued by the Miniſters of the Goſpell. that thoſe whiche hauehave not doen herein as thei ought, and whiche dayly forget themſelues more and more, cannot nowadaies ſo much as ſuffer the Preachers to admoniſhe and reproue them, and to ſtirre them to beſtow it where thei ought to beſtowe it, accordyng to the order and diſcipline that heretofore hath been vſed in the Primitiue Churche euen ſince the Apoſtles tyme.

Euſt.

Therfore we may well ſaie of thē, as Theophrastus and Ierome ſaid euē now of our Prieſtes and Monkes. For I doubt not, but if thei were called to account for the beſtowyng of ſuch goods, and if it wer taken out of their handes, as it was taken from our Prieſtes & Monkes, and giuē to ſuch as ſhould better▪ beſtow it, thei would take pepper in the noſe, and fal to plaiyng that Deuils parte wherof you ſpake euen now in good earneſt. I am ſure thei would at the leaſt play ye part as well as you ſaid that our Prieſtes, Monkes, and their adherentes plaied it, when it ſtood them vpō.

Tobie.

Yea, ſome of them play that part very well, againſt their owne Preachers, but I know not by what meanes. For firſt ther are many that are ſo meale mouthed, that thei dare ſcarce open their mouthes to ſpeake one woorde that ſhould diſpleaſe in reprouyng their faultes. Some other better knowing their office, & leſſe eſteeming their belly, dare boldly reproue the faultes of …hoſe that do amiſſe, and ſpecially in the beſtowyng of the goodes of the poore, but yet thei deale not ſo ſharply with them as thei ought. For thei vſe them more fauourably then thei vſed the Biſhoppes, Prieſtes and Monkes. There is no talke of taking away the adminiſtration from them, but onelyonly to correct ſuch manifeſt faultes, as eueryevery man doeth plainly ſee.

Euſt.

If thei can not ſuffer to bee admoniſhed and reproued ſo fauourably as thou ſaieſt, how would thei ſuffer their Preachers to vſe them, as thei hauehave vſed our Prieſtes and Monkes in like matter?

Tobie.

Thou maieſt will thinke, that if Prieſtes and Friers went about to defend their cauſe with fire and faggot, theſe fellowes would not ſuffer their ſwordes to ruſt in the like cauſe, whiche thei are well able to do▪ if thei were put to it, but the beſt …,Hirelinges & good sheepeheardes. thei hauehave no great cauſe to feare their Preachers therein. For firſt, ther are more flatterers and hyr…linges whiche will diſ…ſemble mens faultes and encourage them therein, then true preachers whiche will ſpeak freely according to their office. Secondly, the Miniſters are of very little power, and therfore there is no daunger to be feared that waie. Thirdly, I thinke that thoſe whiche be of the beſt ſort among thē, deſire the abuſe onelyonly to bee corrected, and that the goods maie bee employed and beſtowed as thei ought to be. And it is al one to them who doe it, ſo it be doen according to the order that the Church requireth.

Euſt.

Mee thinkes thou art be…ome atturney for the preachers that thou ſpeakeſt laſt of, for thei that wel allow the doctrine whiche thei preache,A ſlaunder on the good Miniſters of the Goſpell touchyng the adminiſtration of the Churche goodes. ſpeake not ſo well for them as thou haſt doen, but contrariwiſe accuſe them, and ſaie: that thei would hauehave the adminiſtration of the Church goodes in their own hands, to diſpoſe as thei think good, as Prieſtes and Monkes hauehave doen heretofore.

Tobie.

There is a common Prouerbe that ſaieth: when a man will hang or kill a dogge, he will make hym beleeue that he is mad. So there are ſome that cannot abide ſuch preachers as neither can nor wil be dombe dogges as thei would hauehave thē, but ſaie madneſſe to their charge, to make all men hate hym, and to the ende that thei and their Miniſterie might hauehave the leſſe aucthoritie. For, the leſſer aucthoritie that the Miniſterie and Miniſters of the truth hauehave, the greater libertie hauehave Sacrilegers, Theeues, and Extortioners, and all other wicked ones. And let the authoritie be once taken from theſe, thei feare not the hirelynges:Flatteryng Miniſters. for thei are dombe Dogges, which will either barke or hold their peace for a ſoppe, or morſell, or for a meſſe of hott broth, or a good bang with a ſtaffe. And to be ſhorte, thei marke what either pleaſeth or diſpleaſeth their maiſters, to y• ende that thei anger them not. Yea, and to pleaſe them the better, thei ioyne with them, to barke againſt thoſe, with whom thei ought to ioyne, to hunt out the Wolfe.

Euſt.

It is poſſible that theſe of whom thou ſpeakeſt, hauehave vſed the reformation of the Goſpel (ſuche as it is) chiefly to be fingeryng of Churche goodes. And becauſe thei hauehave vſed ye title of the Goſpell to get it into their handes, therefore thei vſe the Miniſters that reprooue them of the euill adminiſtration thereof (as thei liſt, fearing leaſt thei reprooue them to the ſame ende, that thei themſelues reproued our Prieſts and Monkes: that is, to ſupplye the ſame place, and enioye the ſame goodes.

Tobie.

It maie be that there are ſuch as thou ſpeakeſt of, but I think there are many … ſaie otherwiſe then thei think, and make this onelyonly a meane to put the Preachers to ſilence, accuſing them of vprores, ſeditions, and to be buſie fellowes, & ſuche as will take the authoritie & power of the Magiſtrates in hande: And therefore thei laie to their charge yt thei be troubleſome, and that if their vndiſcreete pratyng were not, all would bee quiet enough: therefore thei crie out that thei ſhould ſuffer them in peace, for thei hauehave nothyng to ſaie to thē, ſo that no man hauehave any thing to ſay vntounto them, for thei hauehave that thei would hauehave.

Euſt.

Then accordyng to my firſt talke, wee maie place theſe (of whom thou now ſpeakeſt) among the number of thoſe poſſeſſed whiche complaine of the rigour and wrong that Ieſus Chriſt ſhewed vntounto thē, as well as Theophraſt and Ierome hauehave placed of Prieſtes and Monkes.

Tobie.

I wil not ſay againſt it, but there are other as well as the…e, whiche doe the like:The enemies af the diſcipline of the Churche. when any thyng is ſpoken of the obſeruing of ſuch diſcipline, as Ieſus Chriſt hath appointed, and his Apoſtles and Diſciples, and al the true auncient Church hauehave put in vr…, and practiſed according to the holy word of God. To be ſhort, thei can be contented to heare the preachers crie out againſt the wickedneſſe of Prieſtes and Monkes, but in no wiſe thei maie not awaie to heare of their own. Thei would faine hauehave a Goſpell preached without repentance, & without amendment of life. Thei would hauehave ſuche libertie vnderunder title of the Goſpell, as to be let loſe to their owne pleaſures. Thei would be vnburthened of the Popes yoke (whom thei call Antichriſt,) but will not bee burthened with Chriſtes yoke. Thei would be very wel content, neither to hauehave Prieſtes nor Monkes, for their findyng was coſtly, and the reſtoryng of Church goodes very harde to heare of: And therefore are contented to hauehave Miniſters and Preachers, but not ſo many as thei had Prieſtes, for ſauyng of charges in maintainyng them: wherein thei ſhew them ſelues to be good houſbandes, but great hinderers to the poore flock of Chriſt,Lack of good Miniſters of the Goſpell. which remaine without ſuch foode, & ſuch aboundāce as is neceſſary for them, and all for lacke of ſuch preachers & ſuch number as is needful. But the worſt is,The cōtempt of the Miniſters of the Goſpell. that thei would hauehave our poore Miniſters and Preachers heads vnderunder their girdles, as if thei were their ſeruantes, and toſſe them frō poſt to piller at their pleaſure. And if the Miniſters will not do it, but if ſome of them (well vnderſtād their office,) vſe ſuche ſufficient honour vntounto them as thei ought, to the ende that Ieſus Chriſt and the miniſterie of his Church be not diſpiſed and diſhonoured, ſtraight waies thei cry out, that ſuche Miniſters be bothe ambicious and rebelles, and that thei will take vponupon them the Magiſtrates office. To be ſhort, if any Miniſter go about to bryng in ſuch diſcipline and reformation of the Churche as the Goſpell requireth, ſtrait waies thei ſaie: Why come you hether to trouble vsus? Can not you liue quietly your ſelues, and ſuffer other to doe ſo to? You would pluck the ſworde out of the Magiſtrates hande, but ye would bee well ſwadled with it for your laboures. We hauehave it by the haft, and you ſhall wryng it from vsus by the edge if ye will needes hauehave it.

Euſt.

For ought I can perceiue, ſuche fellowes would neither hauehave Prieſts, Mōkes, Preachers nor Miniſters, to the end that no bodie might let thē, but to know as thei liſt.

Tobie.

I beleue verely that there are ſuch as thou ſpeakeſt of▪ Thei that are content with outwarde ſhewe of religion onelyonly.but becauſe thei ſee that thei can not liue without ſome forme of religion, neither hauehave any forme of religiō without ſome Miniſters of what qualitie ſo euer thei bee: therefore thei are conſtrained at the leaſt to make ſome outward appearāce. For thei foreſee well enough, that all the worlde would crie out on them, calling thē Athiſtes and Epicures, & would laie to their charge, that thei receiued not the reformation of the Goſpell, ſuche as it is, but onelyonly to ſcratch to themſelues the Church goods vnderunder title of the ſame, and to vſe what libertie thei liſt. Therefore thei are contented to hauehave Preachers to preache, ſo that thei rubbe them not to harde on the gall. Againe, there are other, which are contented to let them ſpeak what thei will, when thei ſee that thei can not ſtop their mouthes, and alſo whē thei can not reproue and hinder them, but with great diſhonor to themſelues. But when the Miniſters are earneſt with them to liue accordyng to the doctrine preached, there begins the ſtrife. And herein thei be like to thoſe Monkes of whom the Prouerbe is ſaied: Ryng to Mattins and ſpare not, but ſay Mattins who liſt.

Euſt.

Me thinkes theſe of whō thou ſpeakeſt, commit the ſame fault that thei burthen the Pope,Chaunge of Popedome. Biſhoppes, Prieſtes, and Monkes withal: for thei accuſe them of vſurpyng the power of bothe ſwordes, that is to ſaie, bothe the ſpiritual and temporall ſword: and that which thei doe, ſeemeth to me not much different, but only that where thei accuſe the Pope and his Churchmen of takyng the tē poral ſword from the Magiſtrate, thei them ſelues goe about to take awaie the ſpirituall ſworde from the Churche and Miniſters of the ſame, in as much as thei go about to rule them after their owne fantaſie. For if thei take their miniſters to be the true miniſters of the Goſpell, thei ought to ſuffer them to execute the charge that God and the Church hath giuen them. If thei goe about either to take it from them, or to hinder them therein, thei are tyrauntes both to the Church & Miniſters of the ſame. Wherfore the Miniſters hauehave greater occaſion to complaine of them, then thei hauehave of their Miniſters: for thei need not greatly to feare, leaſt the miniſters of the church ſet their feete on their throtes, for that thei hauehave brought thē ſo low, that in my ſimple iudgemēt, it is not to be doubted.

Tobie.

Thou maieſt alſo ſay, that if thei be true Miniſters, thei will goe about no ſuche thyng, though thei might.

Eusta.

I will leaue to diſpute, whether thei be true miniſters or no, for thou knoweſt myne opinion touchyng that: But for that thei eſteeme them to bee ſuche, I hauehave good occaſiō to ſaie thus muche againſt them. For if thei hold them for ſuche, then maie the miniſters iuſtly complaine of them, for takyng awaie that ſpirituall ſworde of the Churche, whiche God hath committed to them, aſwell as thei complaine for takyng awaie their ſworde. Contrariwiſe, if thei holde not their miniſters for the true miniſters of God, why doe thei allow them? And why are thoſe better welcome to theim, whiche goe aboute to pleaſe them in all thynges, like idle belles & hirelinges, then thei that go about to execute their charge, accordyng to the commaundement of the worde of God? By this we maie well perceiue, to what ende theſe fellowes hauehave receiued the Goſpell, and how thei vſe it to their gaine. Thei crie out againſte the Pope, and yet thei goe about to ſet vp ſuche an othe emong them ſelues, in that thei doe that, whereof thei accuſe the Pope and his. The difference is,Temporall Pope. that where this is a ſpirituall Pope, thei would make a Temporall Pope, who is more to be feared then yt Pope whiche thei condemne, if he once take roote, and be admitted and maintained: But I wil leaue this talke, for it belongeth not to me. I leaue y• charge to thoſe, whom it toucheth nerer then me: onelyonly touchyng this, becauſe I feare me, leaſt the worlde fall in decaie as faſte this waie, as euer it did, on the Pope, Prieſtes, Monkes, and Romiſhe Churche ſide, accordyng to our former talke.

Eusta.

Theophrast and Ierome maie not marueile, if I and ſuche as I am, cannot followe the Religion and liuyng, whiche thei followe, conſideryng that wee ſee ſo greate diſorder and fault in thoſe, whiche doe moſte vant of that reformatiō, which thei ſo muche ſet out: for we perceiue, that thei cānot agre themſelues.The diuiſion among thoſe that brag of the reformation of the Goſpell. The Miniſters are one againſt an other. And if thei diſagree together, thei diſagree worſe with the Magiſtrates & people, and eche of them accuſeth other. And for my part, me thinkes the Miniſters that hauehave forſaken the Romiſhe churche, to ſet forward that reformation, whiche thei now hauehave, deſerue to be vſed as thei are. For in ſekyng to get the Magiſtrates and peoples fauour againſt the Pope, Prieſtes and Monkes, thei hauehave ſo deſpiſed the ſtate of Prieſthoode, and miniſterie of the Churche, and ſo magnified the ſtate of Magiſtrates, that thei now feele the fruites thereof. Thei thought to ſett the Magiſtrates and people, againſte the Pope and his Churche men, but thei hauehave now ſet them againſt thēſelues. For thei now drinke of the ſame cup, that thei gaue other to drinke of. Thei thought thei ſhould bryng a greate enterpriſe to paſſe, if thei could driue out the Prieſtes and Monkes, to ſette thoſe in their ſteede,Magiſtrates which vſurpe authoritie ouer the Churche. whom thei hauehave now placed. Thei thought it a goodly reformation in ye church, to aboliſhe all the Cannons and Decrres, with the good ſtatutes, whiche the auncient Fathers and Doctors had ordained, to maintaine good diſcipline in the Churche. Thei hauehave putte all into the Magiſtrates handes, and hauehave made them maiſters of the church. It is no maruaile, though thei will not onelyonly maintain that, whiche thei hauehave in poſſeſſiō, but alſo encroche farther, to be out of the ſubiection of all diſcipline. Yea, thei are not contented herewith, but where thei ſhould be ſubiecte to the diſcipline, whiche hauehave been ordained in the churche, thei themſelues will appoincte ſuche diſcipline, aſwell to the Miniſters, as to the whole churche, as ſhal ſeme good vntounto theim. Yet when thei hauehave that, thei themſelues will not bee ſubiecte to that lawe and diſcipline, which thei hauehave appoincted to other, but will diſpence with it, aſwel for themſelues, as for thoſe whom thei fauor as thei thinke good, euē aſwell as the Pope. Wherfore, thei can neither blame the Pope, nor his churche menne herein, but thei muſt likewiſe blame themſelues, for that thei doe theſame.

Tobie.

If it bee not theſame, at the leaſt it is verie like.

Eusta.

Furthermore,Mans traditions chaunged into other as ill. I cā not ſe by what reaſon, thei can reiect the Traditions of our good aunciente Fathers, vnderunder the title of mannes Traditions, ſaiyng, that thei were men, and that wee muſt ſtaie onelyonly vponupon the pure woorde of the Lorde. Why, are thei not then contented with this woorde? Why, can thei not then awaie with ſuche diſcipline, as Ieſus Chriſte hymſelf hath ordained: And ſuche as his Apoſtles and diſciples hauehave practiſed? For I would aſke them but this queſtion. Seeyng thei reicte all Eccleſiaſticall Traditions, vnderunder colour that wee ought to followe onelyonly the woorde of GOD, whiche worde condemneth all mannes Traditions: are not thei men as well as our predeceſſors were? And if thei can not ſuffer the traditiōs of our predeceſſors, what reaſon is it, that we ſhould the rather receiue theirs, in ſteede of the ſimple and pure ordenaunces of Ieſus Chriſt? For I dare ſaie, that thei hauehave aboliſhed, as many or more as theirs, whiche hauehave better ground, and are muche more agreable to the rule and Diſcipline of the Primitiue Churche.

Tobie.

I confeſſe for my part, that there is greate abuſe growne, in the aunciente diſcipline of the Churche: But me thinkes thei ſhould be contented to correct thē, and keepe that which is good, and accordyng to the firſt ordenaunce of Ieſus Chriſt, & not aboliſh al.

Eusta.

Thou ſaieſt truthe. But thei maie not be tolde of their faultes, whiche be verie greate. For if thei be tolde of them, then thei crie out: why doe you trouble vsus? Are not all thynges in good order? And, if we goe about to ſhewe theim their diſorder by the worde of God, and wherein their Traditions are different from the ſame, thei anſwere, that thei will diſpute no more, and that thei bee alreadie reſolued, what thei ought to beleeue and followe. And yet when we made the like anſwere to them, and thoſe that holde the ſame religion, thei mocked vsus, and ſaid we anſwered ſo, becauſe we durſt not ſtand to the trial and that wee hauehave ſuche miſtruſt in our weapon, that we be afraied to enter into combat.

Tobie.

Surely, now I perceiue that thou art at them in good earneſt, me thinkes thou handleſt theim as thei ought to bee handled. For thou beateſt them with their owne rod, and condemneſ? theim with their owne ſentēce. But I praie thee, how art thou become ſo greate a doctor in diuinitie? How couldeſt thou perceiue all this that thou haſt ſpoken?

Eusta.

How could I not perceiue yt, which is manifeſt to all menne: For, ſince our firſte conuerſation together, might I not wel perceiue that, whiche I ſawe and heard daiely? I reporte mee to Ierome and Theophraſtus thē ſelues, whether this be true or not? For, although we be of Religion and opinion differēt, yet I take thē to be ſo honeſt, that thei will not lye againſt their owne conſcience.

Theo.

Tobie and you hauehave made a verie long diſcourſe, wherein ye hauehave very nere touched vsus, and likewiſe all theſe that dooe bragge at this daie, of the reformation of the Goſpell, wherin ye hauehave neither ſpared Magiſtrate, Miniſter, nor people.

Eusta.

Yet we hauehave ſpared you more, then you hauehave ſpared vsus: or our Prelates, paſtors, or Magiſtrates. But when wee ſaie trothe, what neede we to ſpeake.

Theo.

I cōfeſſe that whiche you hauehave ſpoken, is not ſo falſe as I would it wer: but me ſeemeth you doe vsus wrong, in that you make no difference, betweene thoſe that abuſe the Goſpell (as you ſaie) & thoſe that liue accordyng to theſame: but condemne all, as well the good as the euill, without iudgyng the cauſe:Condemnation without iudgyng the cauſe. wherin me thinkes ye ſhewe your ſelues, as if ye would condemne Ieſus Chriſt, as well as the deuills▪ whiche complained of hym, becauſe thei are one againſt an other, & at difference: if we condēne all thoſe that are at ſtrife, we muſt aſwell condēne God as the deuill: for thei were alwaies at ſtrife, & ſhall neuer be otherwiſe,Perpetuall ſtrife betwene God and the Deuill, and his ſeruaunts. nor cā not. Now, if God and the deuill bee at ſtrife, we maie not ſaie, that thoſe which take Gods part in aniwiſe, agree with thoſe that take the deuills parte. And to take bothe parts is impoſſible: ſeyng then that it is ſo, it can not bee but that (thoſe whiche ſerue the deuill, and will not become obediēt to God) will alwaies burthen ye true ſeruantes of God, with theſaid complaintes, that the deuils laied to Ieſus Chriſte. For, if the deuil durſt do it to the maiſter, it is not to be doubted, but yt he wil giuegive boldneſſe to his to do the like to ye ſeruantes of Ieſus Chriſt, ſeyng he durſt doe it to Chriſt hymſelf.

Eusta.

I agree to all that. But you that glorie ſo muche in the reformation of your Goſpell, bragge to bee all faithfull, all good men, to followe the pure worde of God, to be all led and guided by the holy ghoſt, and condemne all others that are not of your ſecte.

Theo.

That notwithſtādyng it followeth not, that all thei that bragge of ſuche things, be ſuche as thei would bee eſtemed. For, the churche of God will neuer be without hypocrites and falſe brethren,The euill and the good mingled together in the Churche. mingled emongeſt the children of God, whiche bryng more dangerous and offenſiue warre to the churche of God, thē any other enemies whatſoeuer thei be. And therfore there will alwaies be ſuche Deuilles, and ſuche poſſeſſed inough in the churche as thou ſpeakeſt of, that will cry out on Chriſt and his ſeruantes, and complaine on them, but yet thei are not of the Churche. For there is great differēce betwene beyng of the Churche,The Churche perſecuted by her owne. and beeyng in the Churche. But where cā the deuill aſſaile Chriſt nerer, and more ſubtilly then in his church? What ſort of men can he better vſe to ſerue his purpoſe, then thoſe, whiche onelyonly will be holden for the true mēbers of the churche, but ſuche as ſhalbe in greateſt credite, and aucthoritie in theſame? If thou wilt talke of Miniſters, I would aſke of thee: when was the churche euer without falſe Prophetes, dombe doggs flatterers, and Hirelynges, whiche hauehave alwaies warred againſt the true Prophetes & Apoſtles, and againſt the true Miniſters of the lorde? And hauehave not theſe been moſte promoted, and beſte eſtemed emongeſt men? If ye talke of Kynges, Princes, Lordes, and Magiſtrates, conſider how many hauehave there been found, that hauehave yelden ſuche obediēce to the worde of God, whiche hath been declared vntounto theim by the Prophetes, and other miniſters of the Lorde, and hauehave ſhewed thē ſuche honour and reuerence as thei ought? For one that hath been founde to yeld ſuche duetie to their Miniſter, as behoued, there hauehave been twentie found that hauehave doen the contrary, which hauehave not been contented not onelyonly to deſpiſe the doctrine of the true ſeruauntes of God, but hauehave alſo driuen them out, and perſecuted them themſelues. And when I ſpeake this, I ſpeake not of ſuche Princes and Magiſtrates whiche hauehave had dominion ouer ſuche people and Nations as wer eſteemed Infidels, but I ſpeak of thoſe that reigned ouer the people whiche were eſteemed of God and of his Church. But how many hauehave been founde among this people whiche would hauehave diſpoſed the religion after their owne fantaſies, to make it ſerue to their affections and commodities, & whiche hauehave vſurped the offices in the church, which belonged not to them?…eroboam. Ahaz. Ozia. Ieroboam, Ahaz, and Ozias, whiche were Kynges ouer Iuda and Iſraell, do ſufficiently witneſſe vntounto vsus. And when all theſe wer reproued by ye Prophets, how were thei receiued?Achab. After that Achab with his Ieſabel had peruerted all the diuine ſeruice,Ieſabell. by the meanes of his falſe Prophets, what ſaid he to Hely? Was it not laied to his charge, that it was he ye troubled all Iſraell? Hely whiche onelyonly went about to ſet vp the true ſeruice of God accordyng to his lawe,Hely. troubled all:2. Kyng. 18. and Achab whiche was cauſe of all the ruine that was in the Churche of God,Achabs reproche to Hely. was a good Kyng, and very zealous of the glorie of God. Wherefore rightly Hely anſwered him: it is thou & thy fathers houſeholde that troubleſt Iſraell. And here doeth Achab ſhewe hymſelf like theſe Deuilles which complained of Ieſus Chriſt. And yet all theſe Kynges of whom I hauehave ſpoken would not be holden for Infidelles,The rebellion of the Magiſtrates and people againſt the Miniſters of the Lorde. no more then thoſe whiche in theſe daies will be holden for Chriſtiā Princes & magiſtrates, yea, reformed accordyng to the Goſpell: and neuertheleſſe, thei will receiue the Goſpel but according to their own pleaſure. And if that in al tymes there hath been ſuche contradiction of Princes and magiſtrates againſt the ſeruauntes of God, and if thei refuſed to ſubmit themſelues to the worde of God, the rebellion was not leſſe amōg ye people, whiche commonly followe the maner of their Princes and Lordes, & rather of thoſe that rebell againſt God and his ſeruauntes, thē of thoſe that ſhewe their duetie as thei ought to God warde. And ſithe it is ſo, what reaſon is it to condēne as wel the true ſeruauntes of God, the good Magiſtrates, and other good men which do well diſcharge their office, as their aduerſaries, which from tyme to tyme hauehave troubled the Churche.

Euſt.

I graunt that wer no reaſon, but this is nothyng to my talke.

Theo.

It is al one: For it ſemeth that thou wouldeſt hauehave ſo perfect a Churche, yt there ſhould be no diſſention or diſcord: but it is in vaine to looke for any ſuch here, as our Sauiour Chriſt hymſelf hath well declared vntounto vsus by the parables and ſimilitudes which he vſed. For there will alwaies bee ill fiſhe among the good in the net of the Goſpel, and the Lordes fielde will neuer bee ſo cleane in this worlde,…ypocrites a…ong the …ithfull in … Churche. but that there will bee alwaies darneſſ mingled with the good ſeede, which wil be ſo like in growing, y• it cā not be knowen frō the other,Math. 13. till it ſhewe it ſelf farther.

Euſt.

What is the cauſe thereof?Marke. 4.

Theo.

Among others there are twoo moſt worthie to be noted.

Euſt.

Whiche be thei?

Theo.

The firſt is,Matth. 13. that the Deuill doth alwaies mingle his ſeed with the Lords ſeed, vntill the Lorde doe cleane ſeparate them.

Euſt.

And what is the ſecond?

Theo.

The ſecond is, that the very childrē and ſeruaunts of God are neuer ſo perfectly regenerated in the worlde,Rom. 6. 7. 8. neither can not ſo well mortifie their olde Adam & ſinful fleſh,Imperfections in the perfecteſt. but that there alwaies remaineth many carnall affections in them, yea, euen in the perfecteſt, whiche is the cauſe thei can not be ſo perfect as thei ought to be. Wherefore, the moſt iuſt are greatly greeued, that thei can not become ſo obedient to the will of God as thei deſire, and as God in his law requireth: euē as S. Paule witneſſeth of hymſelf.Roma. 7. But I wil leaue to talke any more hereof at this tyme, becauſe I wil come to ye point yt Tobie talked of touching the new temporal Pope.

Tobie.

Truely I would gladly heare thy mynde therein.

Theo.

I doubt not but the Deuill would be glad to doe as muche as you hauehave ſpoken touchyng this matter, in thoſe places where the ſpiritual Pope is beaten doune.The foundation of the ſpiritual Pope He hath heaued vp his ſpirituall Pope, vnderunder ye title of Miniſter of the Churche, and hath taken occaſion to giuegive vntounto hymſelf many goodly titles, and ſuche authoritie as the ſpirite of God giueth to ye true Miniſters of his word, and their Miniſterie: But if the Deuill and his falſe Prophetes and paſtors hauehave abuſed the name of this holy miniſterie and the true miniſters of the Lorde, to vſurpe tyrannie ouer the Churche of Ieſus Chriſt vnderunder this colour: it followeth not therefore that the authoritie of the true Miniſterie of the church, and the true miniſters of the Lord, (which is giuen them of God and not of men) ought to bee diminiſhed.Euill reforming of the Churche. For whoſoeuer vſeth ſuche meane to correct the fault that the Pope and his hauehave committed in this behalfe, doth not reforme the Church, but deforme it more thē it was before. And therefore when the true Miniſters of the Goſpell preached in the beginnying againſt the Pope and other falſe Sheepeheardes whiche hauehave abuſed the miniſterie of the Church, and wholy ouerthrowen it: and whē thei hauehave admoniſhed Princes and Magiſtrates to ſet to hande, that the abuſe whiche was in the Church might bee corrected and reformed accordyng to ye word of God: thei preached not that the Magiſtrates ſhould take any tyrannie ouer ye Church, whiche thei condemned, and that thei ſhould tread the miniſterie therof vnderunder their feete: but that thei ought to beſtow their whole power in reſtoryng of it to ſuch perfectneſſe, as it ought to be according to Gods word. And to the ende that the Magiſtrates ſhould not ſticke at it,The declaration of the Miniſters to the Magiſtrates. and think that it belonged not to them, thei ſhewed them what was their duetie, and how muche God had honoured them in callyng them thereto. Thei likewiſe declared vntounto them, the honour that the ſpirite of God ſheweth to that holy ſtate in ye ſacred Scriptures: and what diſhonour and iniury the Pope and his prophetes hauehave doen vntounto it. Wherein thei did not amiſſe, but faithfully executed their charge. If there be any that hauehave paſſed their boundes therein, I will not excuſe their fault. And likewiſe, if there be any Magiſtrates,Magiſtrates abuſing the Goſpell aud their office. that ſtretch that farther thē thei ought, whiche hath been preached vntounto them by the true miniſters of the Lorde, touchyng the authoritie and power that ye Lord hath giuen them: the fault is not in the true miniſters, but in thoſe which abuſe their doctrine, which is the doctrine of God. For ther is no more reaſon to blame them in ſuch caſe then to blame the Prophetes and Apoſtles becauſe thei writ of the excellencie, as wel of the miniſterie of the Goſpell, as of the ſtate of Magiſtrates. For thei wrote not yt which thei hauehave written, to giuegive the Deuill, falſe prophetes, and tyrauntes, occaſion therby to vſurp tyrannie ouer the Church, but becauſe the troth is ſo, and that it is needfull that the faithfull ſhould ſo vnderſtande it: for whom thei hauehave both written and preached, and not for tyrauntes or enemies of the Churche. If there be thē any Magiſtrates in theſe daies, whiche vnderunder title of authoritie and power that God hath giuen them, will take more authoritie and power ouer the Churche then God willeth them, and will make the Miniſterie of the ſame ſubiect vntounto them, as the Pope hath made thē ſubiect to hym and his, and hath alſo made ſubiect the power and authoritie of Princes & Magiſtrates: theſame doe verely ſett vp a newe Pope,Popedome chaunged & not aboliſhed chaungyng only his coate and maſke. And by this meanes Sathan ſhall eſtabliſhe a newe Popedome, vnderunder another colour, but al wil come to one ende, though thei take an other waie. And ſo the tyrannie that he tofore tyme hath vſed ouer the Churche and miniſterie of the ſame,A Popedome more daungerous then the firſt. ſhall not bee taken awaie, but onelyonly chaunged and diſguiſed.

Tobie.

Nay, it will be worſe: for it wil not onelyonly bee chaunged and diſguiſed, but more inforced.

Theo.

How can that be?

Tobie.

Thou knoweſt, that what power ſo euer the Pope and his, hauehave ouer the church in their eſtate, yet can thei not doe what thei liſt, except thei do otherwiſe then thei ought to doe. For, firſt thei cā put no man to death: but muſt deliuer vp to ye ſecular power ſuche as thei iudge worthy of corporal puniſhmēt, either for hereſie, or cōmittyng of any other crime againſt the faithe and religion. But if the whole power of the church, be in the magiſtrates handes, thei maie bind and looſe as thei liſt. Thei nede not to borrowe the ſword of an other, whiche thei enioye theimſelues. Furthermore, notwithſtandyng the greate abuſe in the Romiſhe Churche, yet were the Councels, Sinodes, and auncient cannons alwaies of ſome aucthoritie with thē. There is neither Pope, Cardinall, nor Biſhop, that dare vndertake to admit any into ye Miniſterie of the Churche, except he hauehave paſſed the order which he muſt paſſe, and without ſome forme of electiō. If any be depoſed out of the miniſterie, he ſhal not be depoſed without beyng heard, as appertaineth to hym: that is to ſaid, without forme of Eccleſiaſticall iudgement. But if the whole power be in the Magiſtrates hand, thei may place or diſplace the Miniſters as thei liſt, without any Eccleſiaſticall order, be it right or wrong. Thei maie vſe thē as ſeruauntes, that whē thei are wearie of them, thei maie put them awaie, or put thē to death as thei liſt, I meane if the Magiſtrates bee tyrantes, and hauehave none that dare gainſaie thē, without the like daunger. And ſo Wolues ſhalbe thruſt into the Churche of God, and the true ſhepheardes ſhalbe driuen out. For tyrantes will neuer abide to heare the troth, as it ought to be told thē: and if thei be no tyrantes, thei will be content with the charge whiche the lorde hath giuen thē, and will beware how thei attribute to their particular, that whiche is common to all the Churche, or which is ſpecially ioyned to the Miniſters of the ſame.

Theo.

I perceiue thou ſpeakeſt reaſon: for though the Pope and his, abuſe, and hauehave of long tyme abuſed, bothe Councelles and auncient Cannons, and that thei vſe no part of the auncient diſcipline of the churche, but onelyonly the names and titles: yet dare thei not ſo openly give themſelves over to … thei would, if that bridle were not.

Tobie.

Therevpon I conclude, that if this bridle could not ſo kepe thē, within their boū des, but that thei hauehave ouerpaſſed them verie muche, as you ſaie: it will be worſe, whē the power of the churche is in the hādes of thoſe, whiche are armed with the temporall ſword, whiche hauehave none other Lawes to reſtraine them, and keepe them in their boundes, but ſuche as thei themſelues will take and thoſe at their pleaſure. And beſides that, how oftē chaunceth it, that th…e of this eſtate, hauehave neither learning nor knowledge, and are the leaſt exerciſed in matters belongyng to the Churche: And yet theſe ſhalbe thei, that ſhal commaūde Miniſters and Preachers what thei liſte, on paine of their ſworde: and ſhall appoinct thē lawes touchyng their eſtate & miniſterie, and likewiſe to the whole church.

Theo.

I confeſſe ye al theſe incōueniences might come of ſuche tyrannie. And therfore the true miniſters of ye Goſpell,Good Miniſters preuent the newe Popedome. perceiuyng the ſubtiltie of ſatan in ſuche caſe, & forſeing his pretence, preuent ſuche thynges betime. Wherfore, thei crie no leſſe againſt ſuche tiranny & abuſe (whē thei perceiue it) then thei hauehave heretofore cried againſt the tyrāny and abuſe of the Pope, and the Popiſhe churche.

Tobie.

There are very fewe that doe ſo,Prieſtes and Monkes tranſformed. for I know the greateſt part to belly gods, flatterers, hirelinges, who hauehave the good will of the Magiſtrates and higher powers, ſpeake as pleaſeth them whom thei ſeeke to pleaſe, and confirme their tyrannie: In ſteede of reprouyng them, and fightyng in the quarrell of the libertie of the Churche. Wherefore, if thei hauehave good occaſion to call our Prieſtes and Mōkes belly gods, and falſe Shepherdes: your preachers are not voide of the ſame fault, thei can plaie that parte well inough.

Theo.

I would I could in all pointes diſproue thee herein. But I praie thee conſider whēce thoſe belly gods are come to vsus: come not the moſte parte of them frō thoſe, whom thou mentionedſt euen now? Thinkeſt thou that all thoſe prieſtes and monkes, that now hold on our ſide, are now wholy vnprieſted & vnmonked? Thinkeſt thou not that the deuil hath ſent thē emongſt vsus, to …aſider the Goſpel, hauing inough to … his turne beſide. Wherefore it is no meruaile, if he goe about to ſow thoſe …ermine vnderunder other habite and …ler, where ſuche Apoſtates will … receiued in their … habit. For he is contented that thei vncloth ye outward habit, ſo thei vncloche not their prieſthood or monkehood. But tho there be ſuche, yet thanked bee God there are other, whiche are ready & contēted not onelyonly to be driuen awaie and baniſhed in maintainyng the libertie of ye true diſcipline of the Churche, in deſpite of tyrantes, but alſo to giuegive their livesin ſo good a qua…ell.

Tobie.

If there be any ſuche, thei … thicke ſowē, but come thin vp: and beſides that, thei ſhall finde very fewe, either of their …, or of the Magiſtrates or commēs, that wil ſticke to thē in the maintenaunce therof: but almoſt all ſortes of men crie out againſt thē, and againſt rebelles & ſedicious perſons that trouble the whole churche. Now, what better hope of reformation, is there too be loked for at your han̄des, then at ours? but onelyonly that it is like … ouerthrowen with you, then euer it was … nere) by the Popes … I dare ſaie: that I ſe already …, that vnderunder title of reformatiō by the Goſpell ſome chriſtian Princes hauehave in … vſurped more, tyranny▪ ouer the Churches in their dominion, their … and his adherentes in ſixe hundred yeres.

Theo.

Thou talkeſt at pleaſure of affectiō that thou beareſt againſt vsus and our religiō. But in this meane while,True reformation of the Churche. thou cōſidereſt not the goodneſſe of thoſe that feare God, aſwell Miniſters, Magiſtrates, as common people. For, as there are good Shepherdes, whiche faithfully execute their office, vſurpyng nothing ouer the Churche or Magiſtrates, but honoryng thē as thei ought, according to the worde of God: So likewiſe, are there many true chriſtiā Magiſtrates, which let helping hande, bothe to the churche, and miniſters of theſame, not to oppreſſe thē, but to helpe and further thē in their charge, aſmuch as either of their offices requireth. And when this agremēt is betwene the Magiſtrates and the miniſters, the people whiche are committed to their charge, do willingly frams themſelues, to yeld to God and their paſtors … his ſeruantes, the honor & obedience, whiche thei owe…vntounto thē. And though the nomber of theſe be not ſo great, as it is to be wiſhed, yet there is good hope, that the Lorde will make perfecte that good worke, whiche he hath begun in his churche.The ignorāce of many. For, there are many that e…re rather of ignorance, then of malice! aud for feare …eaſt ſome newe tyranny ſhould bee vſed ouer the Churche; the Magiſtrates and the people, vnderunder colour of Miniſterie, then for any hatred thei beare to good diſcipline.

Tobie.

You cā very well excuſe your …aultes: this is alwaies your maner, when ye cā not gainſaie that, whiche is euident to all men, to make ſome execuſe. And yet will ye not accepte the excuſes of other, though thei be neuer ſo reaſonable.

Theo.

I excuſe nothing, but that that is to be excuſed.Ignoraunce worthie of blame. I excuſe not ye ignorance of thoſe whiche are ignorant of the thinges that wee talke of, and chiefly ſeeyng the Goſpell hath been preached ſo long, and ſo plainly emong thē. For if thei be ignoraunt, it is their owne fault. It maie be alſo ſome preachers faults, which hauehave not declared theſe things as thei ought: neither hauehave had ſo greate care of the diſcipline of ye churche, as is requiſit. Some …,Fault in the Miniſters. becauſe thei are ignorant themſelues, and vnderſtand not the gouerning of the church. Some for not caring greatly for the flocke to thē committed, and not bearyng ſo feruent a zeale to the glory of God, & the edification of his churche. Some other, becauſe thei be flatterers, and are afraied to get the… will of men, but eſpecially of the higher ſort: knowing that thei will not willingly ſubmit thēſelues to diſcipline. But how ſoeuer it be, there is difference betweene thoſe that ſinne ignorantly, (though it be neuer ſo groſe) and thoſe that ſinne vponupon pretenced malice. And …n thother ſide,Falſe detractours to hinder the diſcipline of the Churche. there are ſo many falſe reporters, & make bates emong men, but chiefly about princes & magiſtrates, which with their flatterers & ſlanderers go about nothing els but to hinder yt true diſcipline bee not receiued, and reſtored into the church, as of neceſſitie is requiſit. And this thei do, becauſe thei are afraied of it thēſelues, for that thei will neither be ſubiect to god nor his church. And theſe fellowes finde more, whiche nor onelyonly giuegive eare to theim, but alſo … detractiōs, then the good preachers find that followe the true doctrine whiche thei preach. Theſe are of the nōber of thoſe deuils, which crie out againſte the ſeruauntes of God, and complaine of them, after thei have doen the worſte thei can againſt them, in ſekyng to ouerthrow the whole miniſterie of the church, and all true reformation.

Tobie.

Me thinkes we hauehave talked long inough, of theſe maner of deuilles and poſſeſſed, whiche complaine of thoſe whom thei hauehave wronged, and accuſe ſuche as hauehave receiued greate iniurie at their handes, tell me duplicate page duplicate page now if thou hauehave any more to ſaie of other kindes, … whiche we hauehave not yet ſpoken.

Theo.

Thou muſt further note, that thoſe deuilles whiche complained of Chriſt, complained not onelyonly, that he tormented theim before their tyme, but alſo made requeſte vntounto hym, that he would not ſende theim to the bottomeleſſe pitte, nor out of the Countrey▪ but that he would ſuffer them there.

Tobie.

What ſaieſt thou to that?

Theo.

Firſt I ſaie, that all the wicked are … offēded, whē thei ſe & perceiue their iudge.…ow the true Miniſters of …he Lorde are …dges of the …icked. Now the miniſters of the Lorde are as Iudges to the wicked, for that Ieſus Chriſt condēneth thē by the iudgement pronounced vntounto them by the mouth & miniſterie of his ſeruantes. And therfore it is writtē of Ezechiel, …zech 22.that the lorde ſent hym as iudge of ye people,…on. 16. whoſe Prophet he was. And Ieſus Chriſt ſaid: that he would ſende the holie ſpirit to his Apoſtles, whiche ſhould reproue the worlde of ſinne, as a iudge whiche condē neth him, by the preaching of the goſpell annoūced by the Miniſters of theſame. For the maner of ſpeche that Ieſus Chriſte vſeth in this place, importeth ſo muche. And this cauſeth the wicked to murmure againſt the Miniſters of the lorde (as theſe wicked ſpirites) when thei are conſtrained to ſe them & heare thē.The wicked will neuer finde tyme to heare the condemnation. Furthermore, the wicked are herein like to thoſe wicked ſprites, whiche would alwayes prolong the time, as the giltte which are condemned to the gallowes. For, thei thinke it won tyme, if thei maie delaie it ſo, that thei be not conſtrained to come to accōpt. Theſe deuills denied not,The reaſons of thoſe tha… are conuinced by the word of God▪ but that thei had well deſerued to be driuen out, and ſent to the bottō leſſe pitte, becauſe thei could not deny it: but thei feared leaſt thei ſhould be ſent thether before that tyme. For the wicked would neuer willyngly appere before the Iudge, & therefore can neuer finde meete tyme to come to iudgement. There are alſo many, whoſe cō ſciences beare thē witneſſe, that that whiche the true Miniſters of the Goſpell preache is trothe: & that whiche thei demaūde touching the reformation of the Goſpell is very reaſonable. At the leaſt thei can not gainſaie it by the worde of God, how muche ſoeuer thei calominate againſte it. And becauſe thei hauehave nothyng els to ſaie, thei complaine that the miniſters are too earneſt and too ſharpe, and that the people will not ſo be won. Thei ſaie that thei muſt go ſoftly to woorke, & by little and little tary a time. But in the meane time thei conſider not, that thei and the Miniſters maie die the whileſt▪ and that it is requiſite y• eueryevery man make hymſelf ready in tyme, to giuegive accompt to the high Iudge, who graū teth no dela…e whē y• houre is come. Thei cō ſider not likewiſe,… with … profite is …ungerous. y• ſome hath bin taried for more then x. or xv. yere, ſome other more then xx. or xxx. yeres: & yet thei are ſo far frō amē dement, that thei are daiely worſe and worſe.

Tobie.

Then wee maie well ſaie by them, that thei are the worſe for the keepyng.

Theo.

Thei waxe ſo euill, that after long looking for, thei are leſſe ready to doe good, then euer thei were. Thei ſo well determine to amende, that when thei feele theimſelues earneſtly preſſed, not onelyonly in worde, but alſo in deede, and that thei will tary no lōger, but that ye ſeruantes of God will at length know if God ought to bee heard in his Churche, or men, and if theſe Dogs, Hoggs, Foxes, and Wolues, whiche are in the Churche, ought alwaies to bee ſuffered: then declare thei thēſelues to be very Hogs, Dogs, Wolues and Foxes. And while we let the time paſſe, thei thei counterfect the ſhepe▪ But when we go aboute by true markes▪ to knowe whether thei be ſheepe or no, thei can not awaie with this triall: Then ſhewe thei what thei cā do. Thei are not contented to tread vnderunder foote the pearles,Dogges and ſwine turne againſt the ſeruauntes of God. whiche are caſt before them, and the holy thynges, whiche are giuen them, as thei ha…e doen of long tyme, but thei tourne againſt the ſeruauntes of God (whiche offer them vntounto them) to bite and tread thē in peeces,Matth. 7. as Ieſus Chriſt ſaieth that Doggs and Hoggs will doe, to thoſe (whiche againſt his commaundemente, to caſte the Pearles and precious ſtones of his Goſpell, before them.

Tobie.

It maie be,The puniſhment of God, for too long bearyng with abuſe. that the Miniſters doe well deſerue ſuche reward. For, ſeeyng that Ieſus Chriſt hath forbidden them, ſo to prophane and ſoile his holie thynges, why hauehave thei ſo long doen it, againſt the commaundement of Ieſus Chriſte.The reproche of the Papiſts for pollutyng the ſacramēts in reformed Churches. For in this caſe (mee ſemeth) there is muche more diſorder emōg you that brag of the reformation of the Goſpell, then emong vsus whom you cal Papiſts. For you make no difference betwene Dogs Hogs and ſhepe, and principally in the adminiſtration of your Sacraments. We do not ſo in our churches, whiche you call Popiſhe. For whatſoeuer our curates and ſhepherdes be, yet thei will knowe their ſheepe: and will not receiue any (ſpecially to y• ſupper, which thei celebrate) without thei firſt knowe what faith or religion thei be of. But your paſtors and Miniſters are conſtrained to receiue indifferently, all ſuche as ſhal preſent themſelues to your ſupper. Your reformation is ſo well eſtabliſhed, that if a common whore, a theefe, a robber, or a Iewe, a Turke, come to you, your Miniſter dare not refuſe hym, except he will indanger hymſelf to be depoſed frō the Miniſterie, at the leaſte. Thinke you, that offendeth vsus not greatly? And that it letteth not many men of good conſcience from yelding to your ſect? For though you blame our forme of religiō, yet we thinke, if we do not better then you, wee can not lightly doe worſe. For at the leaſt we obſerue our Ceremonies, and that forme of diſcipline, whiche we hauehave in our churches, better then you obſerue thoſe, which you ought to obſerue, if ye had receiued ye Goſpell, as you brag. Seyng then that your Miniſters hauehave ſo long tyme giuen to hogs & dogs, thoſe thynges whiche you eſteme to be moſte precious and holie, is it not good reaſon, that thoſe hogs and dogs ſhould ſhew themſelues to be ſuche, & ſhould puniſhe the diſhonour, whiche thei ſhewed to God and his worde, and his holy Sacramēt is. For you bragge to hauehave all theſe thinges.

Theo.

I agree, that thei hauehave lingered therein too long: and that the puniſhment whereof thou ſpeakeſt, is very iuſt. And it cannot be otherwiſe, ſeing that Ieſus Chriſt hath foreſhewed it. For in admoniſhyng his Apoſtles not to giuegive holy thynges to dogs, nor to caſt pearles among Swine,Math. 7. leaſt thei treade them vnderunder foote, and teare them in peeces whiche offer them: He gaue thē warnyng hereby, propheſiyng and threatnyng what ſhould happen vntounto them, if thei failed herein. And although our Miniſters be faultie herein,Thei that wil deferre the tyme with God. in that thei hauehave deferred the time to long, ſome for feare of diſpleaſure, & ſome for loſing of that thei hauehave, watching for better opportunitie, yet are thei burthened by diuers, to be to haſty, to wilfull, and to raſhe. And this is the cauſe, that ſuche alwaies deferre the tyme ſo long.

Tobie.

Therefore I feare mee thei ſhall ſweetly abye for it one daie, & ſhall then perceiue what ſheepe thei hauehave in their flocke.

Theo.

Seyng that God hath ſpoken it, we neede not to diſpute whether it ſhall come to paſſe or no. Or whether we ought to deferre the tyme ſo long or no. Wee neede to determine no more, or take any other councell in it. Thei that dooe otherwiſe declare one of theſe two: either that thei wil controll God, as if that whiche he hath ordeined were not well enough, and that rule which he hath giuen to his Church were not ſufficient: or els ſhewe themſelues rebellious againſt him, in not obeyng him. And therfore we ought not to appoint or limit any time, to doe yt whiche he hath commaunded. For if we mynde to obey hym, wee ought not to delaie any tyme, ſeyng wee knowe his will.The hypocriſie of thoſe whiche ſeeke excuſes. And therefore I iudge them leſſe hipocrites which ſaie plainly. Lett vsus caſt of this yoke wherewith thei would yoke vsus,Pſalm. 2. and let vsus breake this bande wherwith thei would binde vsus, and let vsus do as we were wont: then thei whiche make delay, and excuſe them ſelues with the tyme. For thei dare not ſpeake ſo openly as the other doe, nor vtter their mynde, becauſe thei are ſomewhat more ſhamefaſt and hipocrites then the other. But whileſt thei thus deferre the tyme, thei and their miniſters maie dye: and then muſt thei bothe appeare before the iudgement ſeate of God, who will neither allowe appellation or delaie.

Tobie.

I am ſure if Ieſus Chriſt ſhould hauehave demaunded of the Deuills which complained of hym, what tyme thei would hauehave hym graunt them, thei would neuer hauehave founde conuenient tyme, but would as well hauehave complained on hym a thouſand yeares after, as then: Likewiſe, if God ſhould giuegive vsus our choice what tyme we ſhould obey his commaundementes, and doe as he requireth vsus, we would be as hard to pleaſe as thei.

Theo.

Therefore he demaundeth not our aduiſe, neither putteth it to our choice, but commaundeth:The obediēce whiche we owe to God. and when he commaundeth we ought to obeye. And if we obeye not, nor ceaſe from wickedneſſe, he hath as great power to driue vsus awaie, to cauſe vsus to do what ſo euer pleaſeth hym, whether we will or no, as he had to driue out the wicked Spirites, whiche he caſt out whether thei would or no, notwithſtandyng their reſiſtance, complaintes, and requeſtes. Though we reſiſt & ſeeke neuer ſo many waies to auoyd it, yet will he be maiſter. Yet we hauehave one poinct more to conſider in the requeſt of theſe Deuilles. That is: that thei deſire to remaine ſtill in the Countrey, that thei might vexe other, if thei might no more vexe thoſe poore perſons out of whom thei were caſt.

Tobie.

Thei did ſhewe by that experience, when thei entered into the Swine whiche fedde there by: for if thei might hauehave doen worſe, thei would not hauehave ſpared. Ther are many men which doe the like,Deſire to doe miſchiefe. when thei can not hinder or let the worde of GOD in one place, thei goe to an other: For thei can no more be without doyng miſchiefe, then theſe Deuilles. Wherefore thei bryng all out of order whereſoeuer thei come, and carrie this peſtilence with them whereſoeuer thei goe.

Tobie.

I knowe many ſuche Deuilles.

Theo.

And knoweſt thou none like to thē of Genezareth?

Tobie.

Why aſkeſt thou that queſtion?

Theo.

Thou knoweſt that after our Sauiour Chriſt had caſt out theſe Deuilles that wee talke of, and that thei had drouned the Swine into whiche thei entered, the Genezarians were greeued with the loſſe of their Swine,The Genezarian…. and that ſuche thinges happened in their Countrey: and therefore when thei vnderſtoode what Chriſt had doen to theſe poſſeſſed, thei met him and praied him to depart their Countrey.

Tobie.

Me thinkes thei were muche ouerſeene therein: for ſeing thei vnderſtood of the great power of Chriſt, and what good he had doen (not onelyonly in theſe two poſſeſſed, but alſo to all the Countrey, whiche thei keepe in greate ſubiection and feare) thei had iuſter occaſion to beſeche hym, yea, and with great ſute to intreate him to tary emongeſt them, then to praie hym to depart. For what feare and horror was all the Countrey in, hauyng theſe twoo ſo daungerous, furious, and outragious poſſeſſed?

Theo.

Thei ſhewed thē ſelues herein not onelyonly ouerſeen, but wholy madd, and hereby ſhewe, that thei needed not to bee ſo greeued with the loſſe of their Swine, for that the declared themſelues to be very ſwine, yea, vile and deteſtable Swine: For thei did ſet more by earth then by heauē: thei eſtemed Swine better then their own ſoules. For, thei might well thinke what goodneſſe was to be found at Chriſtes handes in recompence of them, ſeyng he had ſuche power ouer the deuil him ſelf. But ſeyng thei were ſuche filthy ſwine themſelues, Chriſt would ſhewe by the workyng of theſe Deuilles in the ſwine, how he could vſe ſuche ſwine as y• Genezariās were and all ſuche other as wer giuē ouer by gods iuſt iudgements, according to their deſertes.

Tobie.

Becauſe thei were verie ſwine thē ſelues, peraduenture thei were afraied, leaſt he would likewiſe hauehave vſed them ſo.

Theo.

But to driue awaie Chriſte,The true meane to driue awaie the Deuill. who hath power to driue awaie deuills, is not the waie to flie frō the deuill, but to receiue hym. Wherefore the beſt waie to driue him awaie is to become the Sheepe of Ieſus Chriſte, who is come to tranſforme Dogges, Hogges, and Wolues into ſhepe and Lābes,Eſa. 11. 2…. and to bee their ſhepeheard, as Eſaie propheſied.

Tobie.

Thou diddeſt aſke mee now, if I knewe any that were like theſe Genezariās, I praie thee tell me thy ſelf, who be thei that be like them.

Theo.

Although the Genezarians were greeued for the loſſe of their ſwine, yet ſainct Luke teacheth an other poincte,Luke. 8. that cauſed them to doe, as thei did to Chriſte.

Tobie.

What ſaieth he?

Theo.

Thei that were in great terror and feare, ſeyng Chriſte doe as he did. For, if thei had been onelymoued wt the loſſe, thei would ſkante hauehave intreated hym,Feare of the power of god without taſte of the goodneſſe thereof. to departe their Countrey, but would rather hauehave vſed commaundementes, threatnynges, yea, and peraduenture hauehave laied handes on hym (if God would hauehave permitted.) But thei were aſtonied at the power and diuine vertue, whiche Ieſus Chriſte ſhewed before their eyes in that coūtrey, by ſo merueilous a worke: and therefore thei flattered hym, rather for feare, then louelove. And where theſe deſired hym to departe their Countrey,Matth. 8. the poore poſſeſſed, whom he had healed,Marke. 5. offer to followe hym as his diſciples,Luke. 8. whether ſo euer he goe.

Tobie.

Therby thei ſhewe, yt Ieſus Chriſt hath ſo deliuered them, frō the power of the Deuill, that thei are leſſe poſſeſſed, then the other of the countrey. For, if the Deuill had not had greate power of the Genezarians, thei would rather hauehave yeelded to Ieſus Chriſt, and followed hym as Diſciples, then to hauehave driuen hym out of their Countrey.

Theo.

That is certaine. For it had been better for them, to hauehave departed their countrey themſelues, yea, to hauehave left wiues and Children, then euer to hauehave ſuffered Ieſus Chriſt to depart from them. And therefore if we well conſider the worke of Ieſus Chriſt, as well in the poſſeſſed whiche he healed, as in the Genezarians, we maie by them learne to knowe the diffrence, that is betwene thoſe that effectually taſte of the grace of the Goſpell, and ſuche as hauehave not taſted thereof as thei ought. Theſe poore poſſeſſed taſted therof:Diuers knowledge of the Goſpell. and therefore thei eſtemed nothyng in the worlde ſo muche as Ieſus Chriſt, but offered themſelues to followe hym, whatſoeuer did happen. Contrariwiſe the Genezarians taſted not of this grace, but had onelyonly a knowledge of the diuine power, whiche thei ſawe in Ieſus Chriſte, whiche knowledge made theim to feare hym, but taught theim not to louelove hym, and followe hym, thereby to bee made partakers of greater goodes, without cōpariſon then that was, which thei thought he had ſpoiled them. The moſte part of men are thus diſpoſed to Godward:Feare of God without any louelove towards hym. becauſe thei knowe the power he hath to puniſh, thei fear hym. This feare cauſeth them to honour and worſhip hym, but not hartely: thei feare hym as wicked ſubiectes feare their Prince, whō thei honour and reuerence againſt their willes, for feare of his power: And therefore all the honour and ſeruice, that thei doe to hym, is but onelyonly fained. So the greateſt parte of men feare and honor God, but yet thei wiſhe hym ſo farre from theim, that thei might neuer heare ſpeake of hym, or hauehave to doe with hym. All thei that hauehave not taſted the ſweteneſſe of the goodneſſe of GOD, are lead by ſuche Spirite and affection towardes hym. And this is the cauſe, that ſo fewe receiueth the Goſpell as thei might. For, ſeeyng it is hard,The cauſe that letteth many from followyng the Goſpell. yea, & impoſſible to followe it, but that it wil bring ſome incommoditie, bothe to the bodie and goodes, of thoſe that faithfully followe it, it ſeemeth to bryng alwaies euill lucke followeth it.

Tobie.

Yet there is no man but will brag and ſaie, that he followeth the Goſpell.

Theo.

That is true, but the moſt parte would hauehave ſuche a Chriſte as the Genezarians deſired to hauehave: that is, that thei might not loſe their Swine by hym: thei would alſo hauehave ſuche a Goſpell.

Tobie.

There are ſome that are not onelyonly contented that the Goſpell coſt them nothyng,Suche ſwin… as bothe reiect Chriſt themſelues and cauſe o…ther to doe the like. but thei would gaine and be enriched vnderunder colour of the ſame.

Theo.

I praie thee Tobie ſhew me what is the cauſe that Popes, Cardinalls, Biſhops, Prieſtes, and Monkes reſiſt the Goſpell ſo ſtoutly, and perſecute it ſo cruelly?

Tobie.

Thei will not tel thee that: for thei ſaie, it is thei that maintaine the Goſpell, and thoſe whō thei perſecute are Heretickes.

Theo▪

And what cauſeth the doctrine of the Goſpell to bee hereſie to them? None other thyng, but that thei feare if it ſhould bee receiued & practiſed as it ought to be amongeſt Chriſtians, thei ſhould be driuen out of their ſtoyes and ſtalles, wherein thei are fed as fat as Millers Swine: for thei had rather be ſwine to Sathan and Antichriſt to be fatly fed in their Stoyes as thei are, then to be ſheepe of the flock of Ieſus Chriſt, or labouryng Oxen in the harueſt of the Lord. Thoſe likewiſe whiche are of alliaunce to them, either by parentage, conſanguinitie, or affinity, or by any other meane, and ſpecially thoſe whiche ſerue them, and liue of their deceite, ſet more by theſe fatt Swine, then by Ieſus Chriſt the true ſheapheards of their ſoules. For theſe Swine fatten the porredge with their fatt, or at the leaſt vnfattē them not, but vnfatten inough of others, to fatten their parentes, affines, freendes, and other maintainers of their Mother holy Churche, whiche Mother hauehave fed them ſo fat. Wherefore, it is no maruaile though thei be lothe to leaue her, or to be weaned frō ſuche breaſts. There is an other ſorte, whiche though thei receiue no profite of ſuche ſwine, yea, and knowe the trothe of the Goſpell: neuertheleſſe, thei had rather be ridd of Ieſus Chriſt, and driue him out of their Countrey, then thei would driue out ſuche ſwine, becauſe thei feare leaſt ſuch chaunge ſhould trouble them, and leaſt thei ſhould hauehave ſome hinderance touching their bodies or temporall goods. To be ſhorte: we ſee daiely if there bee any talke of the kyngdome of Chriſte, the like that happened to Herode and thoſe of Ieruſalem, when Ieſus Chriſt was borne.

Tobie.

Why? what happened to them.

Theo.

Sainct Mathew ſaieth:…ath. 2. that when by meane of the wiſe men whiche came to worſhippe Chriſt, newes came to Ieruſalem that the Kyng of the Iewes was borne, not only Herode, but al the Cities of Ieruſalem was troubled with hym.

Tobie.

It is no meruaile though the Tyraūt Herode was troubled, for he feared the loſſe of his kyngdome, whiche by right belō ged not to hym.Mē troub at the b… of Ieſus Chriſt. But what needed thei of Ieruſalem to bee troubled with ſuche newes? Had thei not greater occaſion to reioyce? For beſides that Meſſias was promiſed to them, at whoſe handes thei looked for full & perfect reſtoryng of all thynges: it is to bee doubted, but thei had rather hauehave a Kyng of their owne Countrey and blood, then ſuch a ſtraunger and Tyraunt as Herode was.

Theo.

Thou ſaieſt troth, and therefore the faithfull whiche were the true Iſraelites among thoſe people, reioyced very much whē thei heard of the birth of Ieſus Chriſt, their Kyng, their ſauiour and redeemer.

Tobie.

Wee hauehave good witneſſe thereof, and namely in the Sheepheards to whom it was firſt ſhewed, and after in Simeon, which ſo longed to ſee that great goodneſſe of God whiche he ſawe.Luke. ….

Theo.

The other whiche were carnall and worldly menne, and not true Iſraelites, but onelyonly in name, denied that Herode would not ſo eaſily leaue his kyngdom, and that the Romanes would not ſuffer any other prince to raigne in Iuda, but themſelues, and thoſe appoincted by them. Whereby thei thought that there muſt needes be greate chaunge in Iurie: and this chaunge could not bee without great warres & troubles: whiche ſhould greatly trouble the common ſtate, and ſo become hinderaunce vntounto theim. And becauſe thei would liue in quietneſſe, thei had rather remaine in the ſtate wherein thei were, (tho it were miſerable) then fall into thoſe troubles, whiche thei thought would be greater. For, thei were already vſed to this yoke, and therfore thei thought it not ſo heauie, as thei did at the firſt, before thei were vſed to it.

Tobie.

Mee thinkes neither Herode nor the Iewes,…e vaine …re that ty…nts hauehave, … the Go…ll ſhould …der their …gdome. neded to feare that, ſeyng Chriſt came not to raigne after the maner of worldly kynges, as he hymſelf witneſſeth. Therefore neither Herode, nor the Romanes neded to feare, that he ſhould take awaie their poſſeſſion,…th. 18. neither the Iewes,…. 6. 18. that he ſhould trouble their Countrey, in takyng of their Kyngdome.

Theo.

That is verie true: But the ſtate was then as we ſe it now, whē Ieſus Chriſt ſheweth hym ſelf to the worlde, by the Preachyng of the Goſpell. For, why doe tyrauntes perſecute it? But becauſe thei feare (like Herode) leaſte it ſhould hinder their Kyngdome? And how many are there, that would be glad to be lightened, of the Romiſhe Antichriſt yoke,Worldly quietneſſe, preferred before the quietneſſe o… the conſciēc… & hauehave greater libertie, whiche notwithſtandyng had rather beare it, then by ſuffryng neuer ſo little trouble, to bee deliuered by meanes of the Goſpell: Thereby we may well perceiue, what care ſuche hauehave of their ſoules or Saluation. None but the true children of God eſteeme Ieſus Chriſte, and his Goſpell, better then their Swine: and therefore, are alwaies ready to forſake all, rather then Ieſus Chriſte, to abide all daungers, rather then ſuffer hym to departe from them: yea, to keepe hym with them, as muche as thei can with all their might, and to followe hym whether ſoeuer he goe, for thei eſteeme the libertie of their conſcience more, then all the Kyngdomes or Lordſhips of the worlde.

Tobie.

Are there not ſome emōg you, that bragge of the reformatiō of the Goſpell, that are like thoſe that thou talkeſt of?

Theo.

There are more thē I would wiſh. For there are many, that although thei ſe an vnſpeakeable confuſion in the Churche of God,…ei that re… the diſci…ne of the …urche to …oyd trou…. and in all eſtates: yet thei will heare of no better reformation, then that whiche thei hauehave, becauſe their bodies are in quiete and reſt. Wherefore, thei feare if any ſhould goe aboute, to eſtabliſhe better order, (to th'ende that God bee not diſhonoured as he is, and the people better inſtructed and ordered) leſt ſome troubles might ariſe, whiche ſhould trouble that worldly quietneſſe, wherin thei would liue. And therefore, thei had rather roote in the mire, and ſuffer other to roote with thē, then to hauehave thoſe troubles whiche thei ſo ſore feare. Wherein thei are greatly deceiued: for the meane to liue in quiet, is not to caſte of the yoke of Ieſus Chriſte,…he yoke of …hriſt and …e yoke of …athan. but to embrace it: and thei muſt neceſſarily bear the yoke of Sathan, whiche will not beare Chriſtes yoke.…ath. 11. Now it is eaſie to Iudge, whiche of the twoo is lighter and eaſier to be borne, and which bringeth greater quietneſſe (by all meanes) vntounto man. For as Ieſus Chriſt witneſſeth that his yoke is light, pleaſaunt, and amiable, ſo he promiſeth quietneſſe to the ſoules and conſciences of thoſe whiche beare it, and ſubmitte themſelues to hym and his Diſcipline, and followe him as their Maiſter.

Tobie.

I doubt not but theſe of whom thou ſpeakeſt, doe proue to their coſte, that whiche thou ſaieſt: and thinkeſt by that meane, to auoide a light and eaſie paine, are deceiued, finde for one paine an hundreth.

Theo.

If ſuche men knewe what it were, to ſerue God from the bottome of their hart, thei would not thinke or trouble: for there is no paine in ſeruyng God, but onelyonly in ſeruyng the Deuill. For none ſerue GOD as thei ought, but ſerue hym with good harte: and to ſerue with good harte, is ſo farre frō beyng paine, that contrariwiſe, it is a ſingular pleaſure to vsus: and as for thoſe that ſerue the Deuill, although thei take pleaſure in euill doyng (for that it is more naturall to thē then to doe well) yet thei ſerue hym as bonde and ſlaues, and the pleaſures that thei hauehave in ſeruyng hym, are like the pleaſures of the ſicke. Who (contrary to the councell of the Phiſition) eate and drinke that, whiche deliteth their phantaſie, and afterwarde become ſicker thereby.

Tobie.

Wee hauehave alreadie ſpoken heretofore of thoſe, whiche are contented to hauehave the Goſpell and Religion, onelyonly in outward ſhewe. Me thinkes wee maie well ioyne thē with theſe, of whiche wee now talke.

Theo.

Wee maie well ſo doe.

Tobie.

Seyng wee hauehave ſufficiently and largely talked, of the old and newe Genezarians; tell vsus if thou hauehave any more to ſaie, touching the poſſeſſed, of whom thou madeſt mention before.

Theophrast.

I hauehave muche more to ſaie: but we will leaue of that till an other tyme.

FINIS.

THE SECOND PART OF THE DEMONIACKE VVORLDE, or worlde poſſeſſed with Diuels, conteining three Dialogues:

1. Of Familiar Diuels.

2. Of Lunaticke Diuels.

3. Of the coniuring of Diuels.

Tranſlated out of French into Engliſh by T. S. Gentleman.

❧ Imprinted at London for Iohn Perin, and are to bee ſolde in Paules Church-yard, at the ſigne of the Angel. 1583.