Whole Works, Tract 6
An other declaration of the Church, wherein hee aunſwereth to Maiſter More.
IN my firſt booke I dyd declare how that certayne men dyd take vppon them to bée counted of holy Church, whoſe maners and lyuynges, dyd nothyng agrée wyth holy church. But after that, commeth M. More, and hée layeth to my charge, that I counted all the ſpiritualtie to bée naught, becauſe hée would make my name ſomewhat odious vntounto them. But verely hée doth mée great wrōge, for it was neuer my meanyng, nor yet my ſaying. But myne intent was to declare that neyther the Pope, nor his colledge of Cardinalles, nor yet all the Byſhoppes in the worlde, gathered togither, did make holy Churche, becauſe of theyr names, or elſe for theyr long gownes, or for theyr ſhauen crownes, or elſe annoynted fingers, nor yet for any other exterior thynges, that the worlde had in admiration. But yet neuertheleſſe I dyd graunt, and alſo doe now confeſſe many good men to hauehave ſhauen crownes, and alſo longe gownes. But yet for theſe thyngs, they were neuer the more of the church.
All the popes learning hath béene, xiiij. queſt. i c. Quodeū que in verbo Reconciliat.that hée and his, hath béene ye church, the which can not erre, and all things that belong vntounto them, were called ye goods of holy church. All lawes made by them, were the lawes of holy Church. They myght not bée conuē ted before any temporall Prince, becauſe they were men of holy church. They myght not bée hanged for murther, becauſe they were annoynted, and of holy church.
Briefely, there bée innumerable ſuch thynges inuented of them, to maynetayne and to defēde theyr holyneſſe, and to proue that they bée holy Church, the which thinges I thynke M. More can not denye. And if hée woulde, yet there bée a great many of bookes forth comming, to proue my ſentēce againſt him. And alſo ye practiſe that hath béene vſed in ye worlde, will teſtifie the ſame.
I thinke M. More, nor yet any mā lyuyng, dyd euer know in hys tyme, M. More would hauehave vsus to thinke there is none other holy church but ye Pope and his Cardinals and Byſhops &c.that any man was iudged, or taken to bée of the church, but ſuch men as I hauehave ſpoken of. And I thynke thys name church, was neuer named, but it was taken ſpecially, and principally, for thoſe men that had ſhauen crownes, and other lyke tokens. Let mée bée reported to thoſe men that bée alyue. Now, becauſe I ſaw that theſe thynges were nothyng the cauſe of holy church, nor yet belonged greatly to holy church, therefore I ſay, was I moued to declare what holy church was, and who were thereof, and by what ſignes and tokens men myght know her.
¶ Now to declare this, I brought certaine places of ſcripture to prooue, that this worde Eccleaſia, was taken in ſcripture, for the whole congregatiō, both of good, and bad. But I ſayd, I would not greatly ſpeake of that cō gregation, for that was not it, that could not erre, of the which was mine intent to ſpeake. And I brought for me, ye ſaying of S. Paule. Chriſt hath Epeſ. 5.geuen hym ſelfe, for his Church, that hée might ſanctifie her, and clenſe her in the fountaine of water, through the worde of lyfe, to make her to hym ſelfe a glorious church, without ſpot, or wrincle, or any ſuch thyng. But that ſhée might bée holy, and without blame. To prooue, that the Churche was clenſed by Chriſt, I brought the ſaying of S. Auguſtine for mée. Of Chriſt is the church made fayre. Firſt Aug. de ver bis Domini. ſerm. l.was ſhée filthy in ſinnes, afterwarde by pardon, and by grace, was ſhée made fayre. &c.
Moreouer, to proue, ye this church was made cleane by Chriſt, and not by names, or by clothyng, or by any other exteriour thyng, I brought for me ye ſaying of S. Iohn. If ye ſonne of God hauehave deliuered you, then are you Iohn. 6.truely deliuered. Alſo S. Paule. You are waſhed, you are ſāctified, you are 1. Cor. 6.iuſtified, in ye name of Ieſus Chriſt, & in the ſpirite of God. But vntounto theſe things, doth M. More anſwere, that I doe not well to exclude, out of this Church bad mē, for ye knowne church (ſayth hée) ſtandeth in a gathering togither of good mē and bad: & to prooue that, hée bringeth in certeine parables of our Sauiour Chriſt.
To this I aunſwere, that I neuer denyed, but that there was ſuch a cō gregatiō of good, and bad: but I ſayd, that that was not ye very true church, afore God, though it beare the name of the Church, and in very déede, hys owne parables doth declare, that our maiſter Chriſte ſhall at length, géeue ſentence agaynſt them, that call them ſelues falſely of the Churche. Iudas was called an Apoſtle, and taken ſo of all his company, but yet our maiſter Chriſt calleth him the deuil. Now if M. More will hauehave Iudas in hys Now euill men be in the church.Churche, I muſt bee content, that hée ſhall alſo betraye Chriſte. The very trueth is, that bad men bée mixt here in the Churche, and after outwarde ſignes, bée taken for members of the Churche, ſpecially if they bée not excommunicate. But the Churche, whiche I dyd ſpeake of, was not a felowſhip gathered togither in a cōſent of exteriour things, and ceremonies, as other politicke felowſhips bée. But it is a felowſhyp ſpecially gathered in What the very true church is?the vnitie of fayth, hauyng the holy ghoſt within them to ſanctifie their ſpirites, whiche doth ſet their truſt onelyonly in the redemptiō promiſed thē, in Chriſtes bleſſed bloud.
This I ſay, is the very true church of God, let the worlde ſay what they will, and let men call them ſelues as it pleaſeth thē. For as S. Paule ſaith, Roma. ….hée that hath not the ſpirite of God, is none of his. Alſo M. Mores learnyng Homo mortuus non eſt homo.will graunt that euill men, bée the dead members of the Churche: what they bée worth, let other men iudge. But M. More reckoneth, that there is not ſuch a Churche here in earth, that is without ſpot, and wrincle, as S. Paul ſayth. For the Church, ſayth Epheſ. 5.hée, is here gracious, and not glorious. Truely, I hauehave marueile, what hée meaneth, thus to expound Saint Paules ſaying: for I thinke hée can not prooue, but that S. Paules ſaying is verified of the Church, that is here militant, and not of the church triumphaunt. But I will not at this tyme greatly diſpute with M. More. But, and if hée were as hée hath béene, I would ſay ſome thyng more to hym, then I will doe at this tyme. Hée can neither mocke me, nor ieſt me out of cōceite, and if I were diſpoſed to couple with hym, nor it is not hys foule, & ſhameles woorkes, and vntrue ſayinges, that hée layeth to me, that could feare me. But now, that it hath pleaſed M. More layeth many thynges to me wrōg fully.God (without any helpe, or know ledge of me) to bryng hym vntounto this fall, I will praye to God for hym, to geue hym grace, that hée may reuoke all ſuch falſe doctrine, as hée hath brought into the worlde. For doubtles, if hée abyde in the meanyng, that hée is now in, I doe not ſée, how hée can dye Gods ſeruaunt. Yea, his own knowen Church is agaynſt hym, whō (hée ſayth) men are bound to beléeue, vnderunder payne of damnation. But truely, as God ſhall iudge me, I am ſory for hys trouble, if I could helpe hym with any lawfull meanes, I would doe my beſt, ſo euill will beare I him.
But to procéede farther in my matter, I will not greatly ſpeake much of the Church, by the reaſon, that many other men, ſence my fyrſt writinge, hauehave declared this article, much better then I can doe it. Wherefore I will all onelye reſite the places of holy doctours, that I hauehave brought for mée in my fyrſt booke, and the intent wherefore I aleaged them, to prooue that ye Church was afrée thing, throughout all the world, and not bounde eyther to place or to perſon. I brought for me ye ſaying of S. Auguſtine, ſaying theſe wordes. The holy Church are wée. Aug. Serm. 99. de tempore.But I doe not ſaye, are we, as one ſhould ſay, we that bée heare all onelyonly that heare mée now, but as many as bée heare faythfull chriſtean men in this Church, ye is to ſay, in this Cytie, as many as bée in this region, as many as bée beyonde the ſea, as many as bée in all the whole world (for from ye ryſing of the ſunne, tyll the goinge downe, is the name of God prayſed.) So is y• holy Church our mother. &c.
Alſo Lyra ſayth, The Church doth Lyra in Mar. ca. xixnot ſtand in men, by the reaſon of ſpirituall power, or ſeculer dignitie. For many princes, and many Popes, and other inferiour perſōs, hauehave ſwerued from the fayth. Wherfore the church doth ſtand in thoſe perſons, in whom is the true knowledge, and confeſſion of fayth, and of veritye. &c.
Here Lyra ſayth as much as I doe in cleare wordes. And M. More doth not, nor yet cā refell hym. Afterward I bring a ſaying of S. Auguſtine, to prooue, that the Church hath ſpottes, and wryncles in her: And yet by confeſſing of them, and by ſtycking to Chriſtes bloud, they bée not imputed vntounto her. This is his ſaying.
The whole Church prayeth, Lord De verbo Apoſt. ſer. xxix.forgeue vsus our ſinnes. Wherfore ſhe hath ſpottes, and wryncles. But by knowledging of them, her wryncles bée ſtreatched out, and by knowledging, her ſpottes are waſhed away. The Church continueth in prayer, ye ſhée myght bée clenſed by knowledgeing of her ſynnes. And as long as we here liue, ſo ſtandeth it. And when eueryevery mā departeth out of this body, all ſuch ſinnes are forgeuen hym, the which ought to bée forgeuē. For they bée forgeuen by dayly prayer, and hée goeth hence clenſed. And the Church Anotable ſaying of S. Auguſtine.of God, is layde vp in the treaſure of God, for puregolde, & by this meane the Church of God is in the treaſure of our Lord, without ſpotte or wrynkell.
It foloweth: Let vsus therefore pray that God may forgeue vsus, and that we may forgeue our dettours, ſéeing it is ſayde: and it ſhall be forgeuen vntounto you. We ſay this dayly, and dayly we doe this, and this thing is done dayly in vsus. We are not here without ſinne. But we ſhall departe hence without ſynne. &c. Let eueryevery man iudge, whether that this place of S. Auguſtine, maketh for my purpoſe, or not, that is to ſay, whether that ye Church hath any ſpottes or wrincles in her, or not. And yet neuertheles, ſhée hath no ſpottes nor wrincles. For S. Auguſtine ſayth, ye Church of God is in the treaſurie of God, without any ſpotte, ſo that through Gods mercy, nothing is imputed vntounto her. Her cleannes is not, ye ſhée hath no ſpots: but béecauſe, that for Chriſtes ſake, there is nothing layd to her charge.
M. More maketh many wordes of …enyall ſynnes, and deadly ſynnes. But to ſpeake after his owne ſchoole men, it ſhould bée to harde for hym to defende that expoſition, that hée here maketh of S. Auguſtine. But to proue that the Church is cleane, by the reaſon of Chriſt, I brought for mée their owne lawe, whoſe wordes bée theſe. De co…ſe. D. iiij. c. Igitur.Therefore is ye Church holy, becauſe ſhée beléeueth righteouſly in God. &c.
Furthermore, to prooue that this congregation of faythfull men, is the Church, that can not erre, I brought for mée their owne lawe. Whoſe wordes bée theſe. The holy Church can not erre. &c. Alſo in an other place xxiiij. q. i. Ar…cta in gloſa.The Congregation of faythfull men muſt néedes bée, which alſo can not erre. &c. So that it is cleare, firſt, that there muſt nedes bée a congregation of faythfull men, which bée neyther bounde to Rome, nor to Hieruſalem, uor yet to any certayne place, but it is ſpread abroade throughout the whole worlde, and ſtandeth in the vnitye of faythfull chriſten men. And that is the church, that God ſuffereth uot to erre in thoſe thinges, that belong to ſaluation. Wherefore I dyd ſay in my other booke, that the Popes councels were not the church, that coulde not erre. For, for y• moſt part, thoſe coū ſels did not order themſelues after Gods worde. Wherfore I ſayd, they myght well erre. And for that cauſe a pryuate perſon, hauing ſcripture for hym, ought to bée preferred afore a whole counſell, if they had no ſcripture. For Gods worde ought to bée iudge ouer all counſels, and to prooue this, I brought for mée the ſaying of Panormitanus, which ſayth. The De electio. c Significal. 1.counſell may erre, as it hath erred, concernyng ye contracte of matrimony, inter Raptorem & Raptam. And ye ſaying of S. Hierome, was afteaward preferred aboue the ſtatute of y• coū ſell, The counſell of Weld…us did erre.as it is prooued 36. queſt. 2. Tria. For in theſe thynges concernyng the fayth, the ſaying of a priuate perſon, is to bée preferred before the ſaying of the Pope, if hée hauehave better reaſōs and Scriptures of the newe and olde teſtament for hym, then the Pope hath. Neyther it can helpe to ſay, that the counſell can not erre, becauſe ye Chriſt did pray that the fayth of the church ſhould not fayle. For I aunſwere to thys, that though the generall counſell doe repreſent the whole vniuerſall church, yet neuertheleſſe, in very déede, there is not the vniuerſall church, but repreſentatiue. For the vniuerſall church ſtandeth in the election of all faythfull men, throughout the whole worlde, whoſe head & ſpouſe is Chriſt Ieſus. And the Pope is but the Ʋicar of Chriſt, and not ye very head of the church. Thys is the Church that can not erre. &c. Here ſayth this Doctour, that ſame ſētence of the church, that I ſayd. I brought alſo for the ſame purpoſe, the ſaying of Auguſtine, whoſe words bée theſe. Thoſe counſels that be gathered in Au. de Bapt. li. 2, cap. 3.eueryevery prouince, muſt without doubt geue place to the auctoritie of the full counſels, which bée gathered of all chriſtendome. And alſo thoſe full coū ſelles oftentymes muſt bée amended by the full counſelles that come afterwarde, if any thing bée opened by experience, that was before ſhutte, and if any thing bée knowne tha… was before hydden. And this muſt bée done without any ſhadow of ſuperſtitious The full counſels may erre.pride, without any boaſted arrogācy, without any contention of malicious enuy, but wyth holy méekenes, with holy peace, and with Chriſten charitie. &c. Here S. Auguſtine ſayth plainly, that the full counſelles may erre, and may bée refourmed.
After this I did declare, how a mā ſhould know this church, & by what How a man may knowe the church.fignes and tokens, & ſayd, that where as the worde of God was purely and ſincerely preached, and the ſacramēts orderly miniſtred, after the bleſſed ordinaunce of Chriſt: and where as mē did patiently ſuffer for the veritie, & the hearers did apply their lyuing to Chriſtes doctrine, and with méeknes receaued the holy ſacaments: Theſe I ſayde, were good and perfect tokens to iudge vppon, that there were certayne members of Chriſtes church. And to prooue this, I brought alſo S. Auguſtine, ſaying: Our holy mother The church ſuffereth.the church, through all the world ſcattered farre and wyde, taught in her true head Chriſt, hath learned not to feare the contumelies of the Croſſe, nor yet of death: But more, & more, is ſhée ſtrengthened, not in reſiſting, but in ſuffering. Alſo Chriſoſtomes Chriſ. in opere Im ꝑſecto.wordes bée theſe. They that bée in Iudea, let them flye vp to the mountaines, that is to ſay, they that bée in Chriſtendome, let them géeue themſelues to ſcriptures. Wherfore commaunded hée that all chriſten men in that tyme, ſhould flie vntounto ſcriptures? For in that tyme, in the which, hereſies hauehave crepte into the church, there can bée no true probation of chriſtendome, nor no other refuge vntounto chriſten men, willing to know the verity of fayth, but the ſcriptures of God.
Before by many wayes was it ſhewed, which was ye church of God, and which was the congregation of ye Gentiles. But now, there is none other By ſcriptures men may know the veritie.waye to them that will knowe, whiche is the very true Churche of Chriſt, but alonely by ſcriptures. By workes, firſt was ye church of Chriſte knowne, when the congregation of chriſten men, eyther of all, or of many were holy, the which holynes had not the wicked men. But now, chriſten men bée as euill, or worſe, then heretikes or Gentiles: yea, and greater continencie is founde amonge them, then chriſten men. Wherefore hée that will know which is the very church of Chriſt, how ſhall hée know it but by ſcriptures onelyonly? And therfore our Lorde, conſidering that ſo great confuſion of thynges ſhoulde come in the latter dayes, for that cauſe commaundeth hée, that chriſten men, willing to reſerue y• ſtedfaſtnes of true fayth, ſhoulde flée vntounto none other thyng, but vntounto ſcriptures. For if they hauehave reſpect vntounto other thynges, they ſhall bée ſclaundered, and ſhall peariſhe, not vnderſtandinge, which is the true church. &c.
Maiſter More hath no great thing in this pointe agaynſt mée, ſauynge, that hée ſayth, theſe ſayinges are none of Chriſoſtomes, but of an other mā written in Chriſoſtomes name. Neuertheleſſe, I let it paſſe: let other men iudge betwéene vsus both. Afterwarde, becauſe that I ſawe ſo great perſecution vſed by the popes church agaynſt all maner of ſortes of good men, whome M. More caulleth heretikes, more for his pleaſure then for theyr deſeruynge: For this cauſe, I ſay, I brought a ſaying of Hilarius, Hila. contra Arrianos.to prooue that they that did exerciſe ſuch tyranny, were more to bée compared to the Arians, then to Chriſtes church: his ſaying is this. The church doth threaten with banyſhmentes, & impriſonmentes, and ſhée compelleth men to beléeue her, which was exiled and caſt in priſon. Shée hangeth on ye dignitie of her felowſhop, the which was conſecrated by the threatenings of perſecutours. Shée cauſeth Prieſtes to flee, that were encreaſed by the chaſing away of Prieſtes. Shée glorieth that ſhée is loued of ye worlde, the which coulde neuer bée Chriſtes except the worlde did hate her. &c.
After this I brought a ſaying of S. Barnard, to proue, that the name of Barn. ſuꝑcā. ſerm. 33.ſpirituall array, & gorgious apparell ye is vſed in ye Popes church, dyd not make ye Church. Hys ſaying is thus: They bée the miniſters of Chriſt, but they ſerue Antichriſt, they goe gorgiouſly arayed, of our Lordes goodes vntounto whom they geue no honor. And of theſe commeth the decking of harlots, that thou ſéeſt dayly, the game players diſguiſing, & kings apparell. Of this commeth golde in their brydells, in their ſaddelles, and in their ſpurres: ſo that their ſpures bée brighter then the aulters. Of this commeth their plenteous wyne preſſes, & their full ſellers, bolking from this vntounto ye. Of this cōmeth their tūnes of ſweete wynes. Of this bée their bagges ſo fylled. For ſuch thinges, as theſe bée will they bée rulers of the Church. As Deacons, Archdeacons, Byſhops, & Archbyſhops. &c.
Men may make an expoſition of S. Barnarde, but it wil bée hard to frame hym to their purpoſe. But for a concluſion, M. More, and I doe vary, but in this poynt, that hée ſayth, the very Church of God ſtādeth by them, that The true church of Chriſt ſtādeth onelyonly in them that are good men.bée good, and bad, and I ſay, that the trew church of Chriſt, ſtandeth in thē onelyonly, that bée good men. For the kingdome of Chriſt is diſtincted in very déede, from the kingdome of ye deuyll. For euell men bée doubtles the membres of the dyuell, as Paule ſayth, Ephe. 2. Alſo our M. Chriſt ſayth, vntounto the Pharyſyes: You are of your father the dyuell. Wherefore it can not ſtande with no learning, that wicked men, which bée the members of the deuyll, and bée gouerned by hym, can bée members of Chriſts body, though that in this preſent lyfe, they bée not yet ſo declared vntounto ye worlde. God ſend vsus all his grace, y• we may bée of his holy Church, and mēbres of his bleſſed Sonne Ieſus Amen.
FINIS.