Whole Works, Answers · Rastell 2
¶ An other booke agaynſt Raſtell, named the ſubſedye or bulwarke to his firſt booke, made by Iohn Frithe pryſoner in the Tower.
IT neadeth not Chriſtē reader (I thinke) now that thou haſt ouerread and diligentlye pondered in thine inward ſenſes that the treatiſe of Iohn Frith, wherein he confuteth all the reaſon which Raſtel, More, and Rocheſter, made for the maintenance and vpholding of the bitter paynes of purgatory: to commende vntounto thee thys briefe worke folowing, named a ſubſedy, A ſubſedy, defence, or bulwarke.defence, or bulwarke to the ſame. And much les nedeth it to dehorte thee from the vayne & childiſh feare, which our forefathers hauehave had of that place of purgatory, as theyr good woorkes which at this day remayne vppon the earth founded for theyr thence deliueraunce, do teſtifie. And foraſmuch as thou art a Chriſten man, and reioyſeſt in Chriſt, I dare boldlye affirme for thee, that thou takeſt neyther pleaſure nor ioy of that place, like as ſome perſons Much ioy made for yt finding of purgatory although it were to ſmall purpoſe.do, which triumphed of late, and with much ioy and clapping of handes ſent tidinges into all partes, that purgatorye was founde agayne: becauſe they read in a booke named the Inſtitution of a Chriſten man, this worde Purgatory. And yet hauehave I not heard hetherto, that the ſelfe ſame perſons hauehave ſhewed any tokens of gladnes, for Gods woorde tranſlated into engliſh: ſo that to me they ſeeme to reioyce more, to hauehave the ſely ſoules purged with puniſhmentes when they be departed, then to hauehave them purged with the worde of God while they be here. Who wil think but as they hauehave vttered theyr hartes concerning Purgatory with theyr tongues, euen ſo ſay they in theyr ſtomakes, that their holy father the Pope (whome we may as iuſtly call the Biſhop of Rome, ſeeing Chriſt is deuided into Peter & Paule.he is there the head of S. Peters church: as we may call the head of S. Paules church in London, Byſhop of London) hath recouered agayne here in England his old authority, yea that he neuer yet loſt, becauſe they finde in theyr churches copes, ropes, bels and beades, with other lyke holineſſe, and on themſelues long gownes, ſhauen crownes, and fingers annointed with the holy oyle of idlenes. For who will ſay but that theſe holy reliques declare the byſhop of Rome as clarkly as this worde purgatory proueth a place to be where ſoules after the departure from theyr bodies ſuffer paines and puniſhmentes. Doth not this preaty pageant of purgatory ſignifie and prognoſticate what Tragedye they will play hereafter, when the word of God ſhall blow and ſcatter from the face of the earth, the darke cloudes and miſtes of mens inuentions, and ſhall ſcoure away yt ruſt of fleſhly vnderſtanding of the ſcriptures in other things likewiſe as it hath done in this, if ought may be found in that booke wherwith they may reſiſt? that ſuch thinges may be picked out of it, the fruite which commonly hath come of all counſels, conuocations, and ſynodes ſince the Apoſtles time (very few excepted) cauſeth me ſomewhat to feare: for if a mā wey the good with the bad that hath ſprong from them, he will perchaunce thinke that the lay people of all eſtates may well and iuſtly ſay, farewell the one wyth the other: and no maruayll, for they hauehave not bene all the children of one father that hauehave bene in counſels, as they hauehave not bene all ſheepe that hauehave gone in ſheepes clothing: and oft times the greater part ouercommeth the better. Which things gathered by experience and by reading, cauſeth me oftentimes to wiſhe, that they which would be counted ſinceere and true miniſters of the Goſpell, eyther might and would cleane abſtayne from ſuch counſelles, that they hauehave no part in them, or els that they would geue no more place to the fruites of infidelitie (I meane mans inuentions and carnall interpretations which the fayth in Chriſt neuer begatte) then S. Paule gaue to Peter hys colleague, when he left the table of the Gentiles and went to the Iewes, which facte of Peter in my iudgement Paule might more conueniently hauehave approued, ſeeing Peter did it to the entent he would not offēd his weake brethren the Iewes wyth hys eating: then the true and ſincere miniſters of Chriſt in the Goſpell may winke at many thinges vſed in theſe dayes among the diſciples of the Goſpell: much leſſe may they approue thē with the faſhion of theyr own liuing, and confirme them with the auctoritye of a Counſell, and with preching they ſay it is not time to ſpeake againſt thē: yet is it time to leaue them, and no longer to ſeeme to allow them, vnleſſe they entend alwayes to walk in them. Had the author of this booke looked after a time, as ſome do, he had not written againſt Purgatorye when he did. I feare me ſome maintaine blindnes more with theyr ſimulation, then they open the lyght with theyr preaching. But this hauehave I ſpoken (good Reader) beſides my purpoſe, which was none other then to admoniſh the Rocheſter More, and Raſtel, are all three defenders of one herely.that although Rocheſter, More, and Raſtell, hauehave all three (as thou perceiueſt by reading thys former treatiſe) ſtiffely defended one hereſie, yet ſhouldeſt thou not hauehave of all three, one iudgement or opinion.
More and Rocheſter were men of high dignitie in thys worlde, the one a Byſhop, the other Chauncelor of this noble realme of England, both auncient in yeares, of ſo great wit, and ſo More and …of … and ….ſingular erudition in all kinde of learning, eſteemed as well of themſelues, as of many other, that no two lyke might in all this land be found: it was thought that for theyr dignity no man durſt, for theyr yeares witte and learning no man was hable to gay…ayt them: wherfore they were perſw…d to be the moſt meete of all other to …ake in hand the defence of the terrible paynes of purgatory, eyther the very …oū datiō, or els the chief building ſe… vpō yt foūdatiō of ye church of Rome. Raſtell had nothing cōmon wt them. But onelyonly many yeares, and a witte ſophiſticall, which he called naturall reaſon. As Raſtel was but an … rior to Rocheſter and More.appartayning to Gods worde, he acknowledged himſelfe ignoraunt therof: notwtſtanding he had ſuch opinion of his witte, that he thought he could as well proue purgatory by it, as the other two had done by the ſcriptures, wherin I thinke he was not deceiued. And as theſe three perſons were not like, ſo tooke they the aunſwer made to them not a like: More and Rocheſter More and Rocheſter thoughte foule …ne of Iohn F…th… anſwere.thought foule ſcorne (ſee what the glory of this world, and high eſtimation of our ſelues doth) that a yong man of ſmall reputation ſhoulde take vppon him ſo cleane contrary to theyr opinion to write againſt them, and (to be ſhort) tooke the matter ſo greuouſlye, that they could neuer be at quiet in theyr ſtomackes vntill they had dronken his bloud. Raſtell though he perceaued his naturall reaſon to be ſore ſayd to, yet was he not malicious, as the other were: and therfore wrote he agayne. Which worke of Raſtell came Raſtel was not malicious, but gladly recogniſed his ignorance.to his handes, when he was priſoner in the Tower of London, where he made the aunſwere following to the ſame: which aunſwer after Raſtel had read, he was well content to count his naturall reaſon fooliſhnes, and wyth harty thankes geuen to God, became a childe againe, and ſucked of the wiſedome which commeth from aboue and ſaueth all that be noriſhed therewith: In the which he continued to his liues end with the honor and glory of God. To whome be prayſe for euer.
Amen.
¶ Here foloweth the Preface of this booke.
BRother Raſtell I thāke you that it hath pleaſed you to be ſo fauourable vntounto me a poore priſoner, as to ſhew me a copie of your booke whiche you hauehave written to confute my reaſons and Scripture that I hauehave alledged agaynſt Purgatory, for that hath cauſed me to make a ſubſidie defēce and bulwarke to my booke, whiche by Gods grace ſhalbe an occaſion to open more light, although not to you, yet at the leſtwiſe vntounto them whoſe hartes the prince of this world hath not blinded but 2. Cor. 4.that the light of the Goſpell and glorie of Chriſt may ſhyne in them. And where as you write and proteſt that you will bryng no Scripture agaynſt me. But onelyonly rehearſe my Scripture agayne which I hauehave alledged vnperfeitly and woūde me with myne owne dartes, and will but euen do as one that playeth at tennes with an other toſſing the balle agayne, I doe verye well admitte your ſimilitude.
Notwithſtanding you know right well that it is not inough for a man playing at tennes to toſſe the balle agayne, but he Iohn Frith ſemeth that he could pla… well at ten…e.muſt ſo toſſe it that the other take it not. For if the other ſmite it ouer agayne then is the game in as great ieoberdy as it was before, beſides that hee muſt take heede that he neither ſmite to ſhort of the line not yet vnderunder, for then it is a loſſe and he had bene better to let it goe. And finally ſometyme a man ſmiteth ouer and thynketh all won, and yet an vngracious poſt ſtandeth in the way and maketh the ball to rebounde backe againe ouer the corde & ſo loſeth the game. And that wil anger a man, and I aſſartayne you that ye hauehave toſſed neuer a ball but ye offende in one of theſe pointes, & yet beſides that ſome tyme ye playe a touche of legerdemayne and caſt me a ball which whē it commeth I perceaue to be none of mine, and all the court ſhall iudge the ſame. Theſe poyntes ſhalbe declared when we come to them and now I will aunſwere in order.
Raſtell.IN your Prologue you aſſigned two cauſes of the making of your firſt booke of purgatory with out allegyng any textes of ſcripture for ye profe therof, which are the controuerſie of two ſortes of people. One ſorte you Raſtel alleageth two cauſes why he made hys fyrſt booke in the defence of purgatorie.ſay be thoſe that beleue not in Chriſt, but deny Chriſt and his Scripture as bee the Turkes Paynimes and ſuch other miſcreauntes. An other ſort be they that beleue in Chriſt & his ſcripture nor wil deny no text of holy ſcripture, but yet they will conſtrue expounde and interprete theſe texts after theyr owne willes and obſtinate mynde. &c.
Now let vsus conſider your foreſayd cauſes & ponder whether your booke hauehave or may do any ſuch good as you ſay pretended, & whether it hauehave conuerted thoſe ſortes of people, or els be any thyng lykely to do ſuch a fact. And firſt let vsus ſée what it profiteth yt firſt ſort which are infidels not beleuyng in Chriſt nor his ſcripture. Our ſauiour Chriſt ſayth, he that beleueth Iohn. 3 Iohn Frith anſwereth to Raſtels two cauſes.is not damned, & Iohn Baptiſt confirmeth the ſame ſaying: he that beleueth in ye ſonne hath euerlaſtyng lyfe, but he that beleueth not in the ſonne ſhal not ſée life, but the wrath of God abydeth vponupon hym. Here it is euidēt not by my expoſition, but by the conſent of all Chriſten men, that thoſe infidels are damned, for what entent then ſhould Raſtell teach them that there is a Purgatory: without Chriſt ther is no way but dānation, as ſcripture & all faythfull men teſtifie. Then would I know by what way he wold perſuade that there were a Purgatory (which ſhould be away & a meane to ſaluation and not to damnatiō) for thē which beleue not in Chriſt. This Raſtelles firſt cauſe proued to be in vaine.I am ſure of (and I thinke Raſtell be leueth it alſo) that the infideles ſhall neuer come in it though there were one? This you may ſée that his firſt cauſe is very vayne, and that if they dyd beleue it they were in déede deceyued.
Now let vsus procéede vntounto the ſecond ſort of people (which beleue in Chriſt and his ſcripture) and yet miſconſtrue it expoundyng it after theyr own willes. And let vsus ſée what frute they take of this booke & what it profiteth them & we ſhall finde that it leſſe ſerueth theſe men then the firſt: for if this men beleue in Chriſt and in hys Scripture, then is it not poſſible that they ſhould receaue or admitte that thyng which is agaynſt the Scripture both by the expoſition of them ſelues & of all the world. For this is both agaynſt Scripture and all faithfull mē that there ſhould be any way to health if we exclude Chriſt and hys Scripture. And ſith Purgatory is counted away to health, he that would go about to proue it (ſecludyng Chriſt and Scripture) is agaynſt Scripture and all faythfull men.
Beſides that if they be ſo obſtinate that they will not receaue the verye Scripture but expounde it after their own willes & wreſt it after the ſame, then wil they much leſſe receaue your booke which is ſo playne agaynſt ſcripture, & therfore if you would thinke that they could bee tamed by your booke which notwithſtandyng ſo wreſteth Scripture, then may I very wel In apt and good example.lyken you to hym that hath a wilde horſe to tame which when he perceiueth that hee can not hold hym with a ſcoktiſhe ſnafle will yet labour to breake him with a rootē twine threde: So that I can eſpye no maner of profite that cā come of your booke if you can alledge no better cauſes then you yet ſhew, but that it had bene a great deale better vnwritten.
And brother Raſtel where you ſay Frith aunſwereth gently Raſtels bitter tauntes.that I auaunce & boaſt my ſelfe much more then becommeth me, and that I detract and ſlaūder my neighbours, & that I prouoke all men that read my booke rather to vyce then to vertue with ſuch other thynges as ye lay to my charge, I truſt I ſhall declare my inconuenience and geue you a ſufficient aunſwere.
¶ An aunſwere to Raſtels firſt chapter which reproueth me for boaſtyng my ſelfe.
IN the firſt chapter of this booke Raſtell Raſtell.laboureth to proue that I am ſore ouer ſéene in laudyng & boaſtyng my ſelfe & that I lyke my ſelfe ſo well that he is ſure that other men do lyke me the leſſe, and that he feareth that God will therfore lyke me & fauour me rather the worſe then the better.
Here he iuggeleth wyth me, and Frith.would make me beleue that he toſſed me mine own ball agayne, but when I beholde it, I perceaue it to be none of mine: for he hath cut out all that Frith meteth here with a falſe ball.ſhoulde make for me, ſo that he hath geuen it cleane an other ſhape then euer I entended that it ſhould hauehave, as it appeareth by hys writing which rehearſeth my words in this maner.
I am ſure, there are many that Raſtell.maruell that I being ſo yong dare attempt to diſpute thys matter agaynſt theſe thrée perſons. But my wordes Frith.are theſe: I am ſure that there are many that will much maruell, that I being ſo yong and of ſo ſmal learning dare diſpute this matter. &c.
Here Raſtell leaueth out the wordes, (and of ſo ſmall learning) for if he had put that in, he had bewrayed himſelfe. For I thincke no man ſo mad as to ſay, that he which ſayeth himſelfe to be both yong and of ſmall learning, ſhoulde prayſe and boaſte hym ſelfe.
Alſo immediatly after the wordes Note here the modeſty of Iohn Frith.of hys firſt allegation I ſay on thys maner: And as touching my lerning I muſt needes acknowledge (as the truth is) that it is very ſmall, which I thinke is but a baſe boaſting: and anone after I ſay, I would not that any man ſhould admit my wordes or learning except they will ſtand wyth the ſcripture, and be approued therby. Lay them to the touchſtone, and trye them with Gods word, if they be found falſe and contrary, then damne them, and I alſo ſhall reuoke them with all mine hart. &c.
Finally, I exhorted them to read my booke, not aduertiſing who ſpeaketh the wordes, but rather what is ſpoken: by which wordes you might well ſee, that I entended not to boaſt my ſelfe, and all this hauehave I written, and be left it out euē in the firſt page (as he calleth it) wherin he reporteth that I boaſt my ſelfe.
Notwithſtanding one thing doth Raſtell.ſore vexe him, that I ſhould recite the Epiſtle of S. Paule, wherby he ſaith I would hauehave men beleue that I had the ſpirite of God, and thinke that though I be young that I ſée viſions and eſpye the truth, and that myne elders hauehave dreamed dreames and wandered in phantaſies.
Thys he recounteth to be a great Frith.boaſt, and that thys one place ſhoulde winne him the fielde: whereunto I aunſwer that indéede my wordes do not proue that thing which you ſéeme No man ought to cō demne, that which he hath not ſene.ſo ſurely to gather of them: but my wordes do argue on this maner, that no man ought to condemne a thing before he read it, and then to geue ſentence, and becauſe you ſéeme ignoraunt in the matter, I ſhall declare it vntounto you, and how it ſtandeth, It is a coulour of Rhetorike, and is called Auantopodoſis, that is to ſaye, An aunſwere to an obiection that a man might hauehave here made, on thys maner: thou graunteſt thy ſelf yong and of ſo ſmall learnyng, dooſt thou then thinke that we ſhall once read or regard thy booke, ſpecially ſith it is written againſt auncient mē both of great wit & dignity? To theſe two pointes I aunſwer preuenting theyr obiection, that they ſhould not deſpiſe it becauſe of my youth: for as the ſpirite of God is bound to no place, euen ſo is he not addict to any age or perſon, but enſpyreth where he will, & when he will, and bring in for an example God inſpireth youth aſwell as age.that he enſpyred yong Timothy prouing thereby, that the youth of it ſelfe is not to be deſpiſed, but according to the learning which it bringeth, and that therfore they may not deſpiſe my youth, but firſt read what doctrine I bring, and therafter to iudge it. No more in this I proue not, that I am enſpyred, and hauehave the ſpirite of God as Timothie had, but onelyonly proue that God may enſpyre youth, as he did Tymothe, and that therefore ye ought firſt to read before you condemne: for you know not who is enſpyred, and who not, vntill you hauehave read theyr workes, or ſéene theyr factes. Thus you may ſée that my wordes define not, that all youth is enſpired, although ſome may be: but I exhort …. Theſſ. 1.that no man deſpiſe propheſies, but proue all, and approue that is good. And to make the matter more playne I ſhall bring you an example out of Paule to the Hebrues, which Hebr. 13.exhorteth them to hoſpitalitie, for by that ſome men vnwares hauehave receaued Angels to harbour, be not therefore vnmindfull of it. Here Paule exhorteth you to hoſpitalitie, and ſhewing you that by thoſe meanes ſome men hauehave receaued angels into their houſe, he would not hauehave you thinke yt all the geſtes that you ſhall receaue ſhall be angels, but ſome ſhall be leud loſels. And likewiſe I in exhorting you to read my booke, and not deſpiſing my youth, becauſe that ſometime God enſpireth the yong, would not hauehave you thinke that the bookes made of yong men (which ye ſhall receaue) ſhall be holeſome doctrine, but ſome men be lewd and vnfruitfull, neuertheleſſe euen as if they receaued not thoſe geſts they ſhould alſo put away angels if any came. So if you deſpiſe to read ſuch bookes as be written by young men, you may alſo fortune to deſpiſe them which are written by the inſpiration of Chriſtes ſpirit, and therefore ye ought to read.
But be it in caſe I had indéed praiſed Frith ſpeaketh to cauillers.my ſelfe (as I hauehave not) and that I had ſayd that I had the Spirite of God, what inconuenience ſhould folow thereof? would you therof argue that my doctrine were falſe? If that were a good argument, then were Chriſtes Doctrine falſe, then were Paule a falſe prophet, and our fayth nothing: for Chriſt ſaid to the Iewes Iohn 8.that he was the light of the worlde. And againe he ſayd, It is my Father that glorified me, whome ye call your God. Now if it had bene a ſufficient A mā may vſe godly & modeſt boaſtyng.argument to condemne hys doctrine becauſe the world calleth it boaſting, thē ſhould we hauehave beleued no truth at all. Beſides that Paul ſéemeth not 2. Cor. 11.a little to boaſt him ſelfe, if men looke on it with a carnall eye, for he ſayth, that he thincketh not him ſelfe inferiour vntounto yt hyeſt Apoſtles: and ſayth againe, that if they glory to be the miniſters of Chriſt (though he ſpeake vnwiſely) he is more copious in labours, in ſtripes aboue meaſure, in priſon more often, often at the poynt of death. &c.
Should we for theſe words thinke that his doctrine were not right? Nayverely that doth not improue the doctrine, but that it may be good & holeſome for a man may boaſt him ſelfe & do well ſo he referre yt prayſe to God from whom all goodnes commeth: but be it in caſe that I ſhould ſay that God of hys mere mercy and for the louelove that he oweth me in Chriſt and hys bloud had geuen me hys ſpirite This is a thankfull, & godly boaſting.that I might be to his laude & prayſe to whom be thankes for euer. Amen. would you thinke that this were ſo greate a boaſtyng that the doctrine ſhould be impayred therby? Ah blinde guides I pray God geue you the light of vnderſtandyng, I beſeche you brother Raſtell be not diſcōtent with me if I aſke you one queſtion, be ye a Chriſten man or no? I am ſure you will aunſwere yes, then if I brought you the text of Paule which ſayth, he that hath not yt ſpirite of God is none Roma. 8.of his, I pray you how will you auoyde it, notwithſtādyng if you wold auoyde yt text, yet will I lay an other blocke in the way that you ſhal not be able to remoue, and that is the ſaying of Paule. 2. Corin. 13. Know ye not 2. Cor. 13.your ſelues that Chriſt is in you? except ye be reprobate perſons, now how ſoeuer you would iudge of your ſelues, I thinke verely that I am no ſuch & therfore whereas before I dyd not ſo write. Now I certifie you that Frith the faithful ſeruaunt and true martyr of Chriſt.I am Chriſtes, cōclude what ye wil, & the day ſhall come that you ſhall ſurely know that ſo it is, albeit in meane ſeaſon I be reputed a laughyng ſtoke in this world for I know in whom I truſt and he can not deceaue me.
Then bryngeth he againſt me that Raſtell.I ſay we hauehave bene long ſecluded frō the Scripture and alſo that our fore fathers hauehave not had yt light of Gods word opened vntounto them.
I maruell what Raſtell meaneth Frith.by bryngyng this for his purpoſe, for Raſtell ſheweth himſelf to be very ignoraunt.I thinke it no boaſtyng of my ſelfe, but if ye thinke that it be vntrue, I thinke he is very blynde. For what Scripture hath the poore commons bene admitted vntounto euen til this day? It hath bene hid and locked vp in a ſtraunge tounge and from them that hauehave attayned the knowledge of that toung hath it bene locked with a thouſand falſe gloſes of Antichriſtes makyng and innumerable lawes. And where I ſay our forefathers hauehave not Frith ſheweth his meaning how yt ſcripture was kept from our forefathershad the light of Gods worde opened vntounto them, I meane that they hauehave not the Scripture in their owne mother toung, that they might hauehave conferred theſe iugglyng miſtes with the light of Gods word as the proceſſe of my wordes can teſtifie which he hath holy left out, but I beſech the Chriſtē reader once to read the place for my diſcharge and his confuſion, ye ſhall finde it in the ſecōd leafe of my booke.
And now he alledgeth agaynſt me that I ſhould ſay this: iudge Chriſten Raſtell.reader what reaſons Raſtell hath brought and how he hath ſoluted thē, for in my minde both his reaſons and ſolutions are ſo childiſh and vnſauery, ſo vnlearned and baren ſo full of faultes and phantaſies that I rather pitie the mans déepe ignoraunce and blyndnes which hath ſo deceiued him ſelfe through Philoſophie and naturall reaſon, then I feare that he by his vayne probations ſhould allure any man to conſent vntounto hym.
I thinke Raſtell layeth not this agaynſt Frith.me, becauſe I boaſt my ſelfe in theſe wordes: And verely as touchyng the truth of thoſe woordes I will adde thus much more vntounto thē, that I neuer wyſt man yt was coūted wiſe whiche hath brought ſo ſlender reaſons except he entended to deſtroy a thing which ye ſéeme to hauehave build.
And finally where as I exhorte all men to iudge and conferre the Scriptures Raſtell.which Syr Thomas More and my Lorde of Rocheſter alleadge for theyr opinions and would hauehave them to ponder their reaſons and my Raſtell cauileth.ſolutions vntounto them annexyng theſe wordes I am ſure yt my ſmal learning hath condēned their hygh eloquence, that my folye hath brought to nought their wiſedome & that my youth hath diſcloſed their feſtered ignoraunce.
There Raſtell thinketh that I ſtād Frith.well in my owne conceite and boaſt my ſelfe aboue the Moone becauſe I touch M. More his kynſman: but let Raſtell take this for an aunſwere, if M. More would kéepe him within his owne bondes that is with medling of More would not be ignorant in any thing & therfore vnderſtood nothing as he ſhould hauehave vnderſtand, neyther his duty to the prince, nor yet to God.worldly matters onelyonly, I would neuer compare with him, yet he muſt remember that a dawber may correct hym in his owne craft, but it is euen as Socrates ſayeth, when a man is wiſe in one thyng then will hée take vponupon him to define all thynges and be ignoraunt in nothyng and ſo diſdayneth the gift that he hath and proueth hym ſelfe vnwiſe.
Furthermore I ſée no great praiſe that I here attribute vntounto my ſelfe: but confeſſe my ſmall learning, my folly, and my youth: neuertheleſſe if he recount it a prayſe, becauſe I ſay it hath cōdemned theyr hie eloquence and theyr wiſedome, and diſcloſed theyr ignoraunce, then let hym alſo annexe the wordes that I wrote ſaying. And it is euen the olde practiſe of God, to chooſe the fooliſh things of the worlde to confound the wiſe, to chooſe the weak to confound the mighty, A good concluſiō made by Iohn Frith againſt Raſtels firſt chapter.and to chooſe the vile things which are of no reputation to confound thē of hye degrée, that no fleſh might boſt it ſelfe in his ſight, to whom onelyonly be prayſe and thankes for euer. Amen.
Where all men may ſée that I referre all prayſe to him which onelyonly is worthy: and ſo I may conclude, that you hauehave not looked indifferently on my booke.
An aunſwer vntounto Raſtels ſecond chapter, which improueth me for rayling & diſpraiſing others.
IN the ſecond chapter he raungeth Raſtell.the field, and ſearcheth out with all diligence, what worde I hauehave ſpoken that might be takē in the worſt ſence, and calleth them rayling, geſting, and ſcolding woordes: And becauſe he would hauehave me to be abhorred of the Reader, he alleageth not onelyonly theſe wordes that are ſpoken againſt himſelfe, but alſo that are ſpoken againſt my lorde of Rocheſter, and ſyr Thomas More, not that he entendeth to aunſwer for them, or to defend theyr parties ye may be ſure, but onelyonly to leaue nothing behinde which ſhould ſéeme to make for him, like a noble orator, the wordes that he reproueth are theſe:
There Raſtell taketh hys foundation Raſtell.vponupon a ſtarke lye, and there he maketh two lyes: and there he maketh thrée lyes.
Here I would deſire my brother Frith.Raſtell to pardon me of a little ignoraunce, for ſurely I thought it had bene no more offence to call a lye, a lye, then to call a ſhéepe a ſhéepe: notwithſtanding ſith he recounteth it to be rayling, geſting, and ſcolding, I will hereafter temper my ſelfe, and chaunge my words, and will ſay that when he lyeth (that by hys leaue) he maketh a fitten.
It angreth him when I ſay, that Raſtell.Raſtel hath loſt his wit in purgatory, and therefore I will ſay ſo no more. Frith.But thys I will affirme (be Raſtell neuer ſo furious) that whoſoeuer maketh ſuch reaſons and ſolutions, and counteth them good in earneſt, that he hath no wit in hys head, whereſoeuer he loſt it: but if you would read Raſtels firſt argument which I hauehave ſet in my booke in the twelf leafe, then you ſhall perceyue whether I ſay the truth, or not.
Alſo he aleageth that I ſhould ſay, that Raſtell.ſaying of Raſtell is againſt ſcripture: but if ye count that railing, and and would not hauehave me ſay ſo much vntounto him, I will count the man ſomwhat Frith.ſtately: and this I enſure him, that if God ſuffer me to liue, I wyll ſay ſo agayne, take it as he will.
Alſo he reciteth as a great reproch Raſtell.that I ſhould ſay, I marueyll how our ſcholemen may abide this felow. And ſurely the ſame I ſay agayne, for Frith.he proueth both ſainte Thomas and them alſo foles & double f…oles, which if I ſhoulde ſo do, would be counted baynous hereſie.
Then he rehearſeth what I ſay of Raſtell.M. More, and my L. of Rocheſter, and all to helpe his matter, that when I ſay, the ſmall probations and ſlender reaſons that thoſe two witted men, Syr Thomas More, and my Lorde of Rocheſter had brought to confirme Purgatorye, made my hart to yerne.
What rayling or ieſting this is, let Frith.other men iudge, but thys I dare auow that I ſayd the truth: for what ſhould a man do or ſay, to ſée them ſo contrary in theyr tales. M. More ſayeth, Rocheſter contrary to More, and More contrary to Rocheſter.that there is fire and no water in purgatory: and my lord of Rocheſter ſayth, that there is both fire and water. M. More ſayth, that the miniſters of puniſhment are deuils: and my lorde of Rocheſter ſayth, that the miniſters of puniſhment are angels. M. More ſayth, that both the grace & charity of them that lye in the paynes of purgatory are increaſed: my lorde of Rocheſter ſayth, the ſoules of purgatory obtayne there neyther more fayth, nor grace, nor charitie thē they brought in with them. Now iudge good Reader, whether I hauehave rayled, or ſayde the trueth, but all this doth Raſtell leaue out full craftely: he reciteth full diligently both the head and tayle, but the middle which expoundeth the matter wil he not let you ſée.
He alleageth alſo againſt me, that Raſtell.I ſay, M. More is ſore deceaued, and ſet on the ſand euen at the firſt brunt, and in the beginning of hys voyage, and that I would wiſh M. More a little more witte.
Euen that I ſay agayne, and affirme Frith.it to be true, and is ſo euidently proued in the beginning of mine aunſwer agaynſt M. More, that I néed to ſay nothing, but only referre the reader vntounto the place.
Alſo he improueth me for ſaying in Raſtell.an other place, that M. More ſheweth him in one text twiſe ignoraunt, and yt he is to buſte, for he vnderſtandeth not the phraſe of ſcripture.
This and ſuch other ſayinges he Frith.alleageth (which I paſſe ouer:) for I count it folly to ſpend paper and laboure about the rehearſing of them, for if you read my booke, you ſhall ſée all theſe points ſo plainly proued that he mought be aſhamed to make mention of them.
This he counteth geſting, ſlaundering, Raſtell.and rayling, ſaying that no reaſonable man will thincke theſe poyntes to be thinges belonging to vertue, but rather ſpices and braunches Raſtell is a bitter taunter.of pride, and that I ſhew not my ſelf therin charitable but rather malicious, nor no wiſedome therein but rather …olly, adding that if I had bene halfe a yeare at two ſcholes, that is to ſay, the ſchole of diſcretion, and the ſchole of charitie, I ſhould more hauehave proſpered in vertuous learning, then I hauehave done in other ſcholes this vij. yeare: and ſayth, that I hauehave bene at the ſcholes of ſlaundering, rayling, and geſting.
Deare brother, if it had bene ſo, Frith.that I had ſpoken certayne wordes in déede, which mighte hauehave ſéemed in your eyes to be rayling, detracting, and ſlaundring (as I hauehave not, ſauing a little geſting) woulde you diſproue my doctrine thereby? What will you then ſay to S. Iohn baptiſt which calleth Math. 3.the phariſies (then heades of the church, as are now our doctoures) generation of vipers? would you therefore conclude that his doctrines were naught? I thinke you be not ſo chyldiſh. And it ſéemeth this one ſentence to be more rayling, and ſlaundering, then all that I hauehave written.
What wil you ſay to Chriſt which called the ſcribes and phariſies hypocrites, Math. 15. 16. 22. And in the 13. he ſéemeth to rayle aboue meaſure where he calleth thē hypocrites, The reprouing of the papiſticall hypocrites muſt not be called rayling.and blinde guides, paynted ſepulchers, whych outwardlye appeare righteous, but within are full of hypocriſie, ſerpents, and generation of Ʋipers. Beſides that he calleth Herode Foxe. Luc. 13: and the Iewes Luc. 13.he called a froward and aduouterous generation, Math. 12. 16: and in the 17. he ſayth, O vnfaythfull and ouerthwart nation: woulde you thinke it ſhould excuſe the Iewes which refuſed his doctrine to ſay that he rayled, and that no reaſonable man woulde thinke thoſe things to be pointes, belonging to vertue, but rather ſpices and braunches of pride and that hée ſhewed not hym ſelfe charitable, but malicious, nor no wiſedome therein but folie, would it excuſe them to ſay (as you do to me) that if he had bene one halfe yeare at ſchole of diſcretion and charitie, he ſhould more hauehave proſpered in vertuous learning and that he had bene at the ſcholes of ſclanderyng, rayling and ieſtyng.
Finally S. Paule in your eyes might appeare to rayle and ſlaunder and to be cleane deſtitute of Gods ſpirite, which as Luke ſaith repleniſhed Luc. 13.with the holy Ghoſt ſayd to Clemas that reſiſteth hym. Actes. 13. O thou ful of all ſuttelty & deceite thou ſonne of the deuill and enemy of all righteouſnes ceaſeth not to peruerte the rightwayes of the Lord. I can bryng many …o ſuch ſayinges of Peter, Iohn, Iames, and Iudas, and yet I thincke you will not improue their doctrine thereby but becauſe I ſtudye to be ſhorte, I ſhall count it ſufficient to hauehave warned the reader of this. Notwithſtanding peraduenture Raſtell wil not yet be aunſwered, but will ſay that albeit I hauehave touched inough as concernyng thoſe thynges that appeare railyng and ſlanderyng in his eyes, yet I brought none that ieſt as I do, whereunto I may aunſwere and alledge for me Helias the The Prophetes and Apoſtles were great reprouers of the vngodly and wicked.Prophet which both mocked the falſe Prieſtes and ieſted with them, ſaying call loude vntounto your Gods for peraduenture they are a ſléepe and cā not here, or els they be gone out of towne. I cannot inough meruell that my brother Raſtell would vſe ſuch maner of reaſoning with me as to improue my doctrine becauſe of my raylyng and ieſtyng.
For ther with he hath made a foule hole in his kinſmans beſt coate for eueryevery mā perceiueth that M. More his bookes are ſo full of rayling, geſtyng and baudye tales, that if the furious Momus & Venus had take out theyr partes there ſhould be very little left for Vulcanus.
Raſtell.After this Raſtell diſſenteth to the purpoſe of his matter & would proue that my expoſitions of Scripture are not good becauſe they are an occaſion to bryng yt people to boldnes of ſinne and to moue the people to delite in other mens faultes, and to laugh therat, and to put you an exāple: he ſayth, if I ſhould take vponupon me the expoſitiō of this text. In principio erat verbum & verbum erat apud deum &c. and expound it after this maner.
As it is a fond expoſition, ſo it is falſe metre.In the begynnyng of this yeare
Iohn Frith is a noble Clerke
He killed a mylſtone with his ſpere
Keepe well your geeſe your dogges do barke.
I trowe ſayth Raſtell all wiſe men would thinke that this were a fonde expoſition & yet this expoſition would pleaſe childrē fooles and mad men, as well as the expoſition of S. Auſten or S. Hierome or any other Doctor of ye Church, becauſe it would make them to laugh, ſo (ſayth Raſtell) Frith maketh ſuch expoſitiōs with ieſtyng and rayling to make the people laugh, not regardyng to edifie the people, nor to prouoke them to vertue mekenes or charitie nor to leaue their ſinne, but rather geueth them boldnes & to beleue that there is no Purgatory nor A ſore and fond ſaying of Raſtell.hell, but mocketh and ieſteth at thoſe reaſons that bee made for proofe of Purgatory.
Now as touchyng the firſt part, Firth.where he ſaith that my expoſitions be an occaſion to bryng the people to boldnes of ſinne, I aſke hym why? his aunſwere is becauſe I geue thē boldnes that there is no Purgatory, nor yet hell, thereto Raſtell by his leaue (maketh a fitten) I dare not ſay hee Frith is a good ſcholer & ſone hath lerned his leſſon, he will ſay no more they lye, for that is bitter.maketh a lye for that hee would call rayling for I neuer denyed hell, but affirme in many places of my booke & euē in the firſt ſide of myne aunſwere agaynſt him I affirme hell, and perpetuall damnation, but when ye come to the proofe of his wordes, then you ſhall ſée how wiſely the mā cōcludeth, for he thinketh that ab inferiori ad ſuū ſuperius confuſe diſtribue, men ſhall thinke it a good conſequent as if I ſhould ſay that we lacke fire in priſō, then would he cōclude that there lacked fire in all Middleſex. Or if I wold ſay their were no wit in Raſtels head then would hee conclude that there were no witte in no mās head, but he hath ſo long ſtudyed Philoſophy, that hee hath cleane forgotten his principals of Sophiſtry, notwithſtandyng we wil forgeue him this faute for the man is ſomewhat aged and therfore I thinke it is lōg ſince he read them, and that they are now out of his memory: neuertheleſſe he will ſay that hys argument is not ſoluted for although I denye not hell, yet I denye Purgatory, and ſo I geue the people an occaſiō to ſinne, becauſe they feare not Purgatory, whereunto I hauehave ſo ſufficiently aunſwered in Raſtels vij. argument that I wonder that hee is not a ſhamed to bryng the ſame agayne but he truſteth that my bookes ſhall neuer be read, and his may go ſurely abroad, and therefore he may ſay what he will onelyonly hee careth not what he ſaith ſo he hold not his peace.
And where hee reporteth that I Raſtell.make expoſitions to make the people to delite to heare of other mēs fautes and to laugh thereat, therto will I ſay nay, till he be at layſure to proue it, Frith.and where he ſayth, if he ſhould take vppon hym to expounde, In principio erat verbum in this maner.
Raſtell.In the begynnyng of this yeare
Iohn Frith is a noble Clerke
He killed a mylſtone with his ſpere
Keepe well your geeſe the dogges do barke.
Saying that all wiſe men would ſay that this were a fonde expoſition.
Therto I aunſwere that, ſaying: Frith.for the ryme & meter they might well ſay that a gooſe had made it for any I gooſe would hauehave made better ryme and meter then Raſtell did.reaſon, that is therin, and yet as touchyng the meter, the ſecond verſe lacketh a foote, and is ſhorter then his felowes, but if you put out this word Frith, and put in this worde Raſtell for it, then ſhall his meter alſo be perfite, and that halting verſe ſhal runne merely with his felowes vppon hys right féete on this maner.
In the begynnyng of this yeare
Iohn Raſtell is a noble Clerke
He killed a mylſtone with his ſpere
Keepe well your geeſe the dogges do barke.
Thus I hauehave amended his meter, Frith taketh payne to amende Raſtels meter, but not his reaſon.but as for the reaſon I leaue it to him ſelfe to amende it at his layſure. In the end of his ſecond chapter he ſayth that I entende with my expoſitions to bring the people to beleue in foure other great errours, wherof the firſt is that there is no hell, ordeined for any that is of Chriſtes faith, although he do neuer ſo many ſinnes but let vsus ſée how he proueth it.
An Aunſwer to Raſtels third Chapter, which would proue that I deny hell.
IT ſéemeth (ſayth Raſtel) by the reaſons Raſtell.that Frith hathe alleaged that his entēt is to bring the people in beléefe that there is no hel, for I alleage in my aunſwer to Raſtels dialoge the ſaying of S. Paule. Ephe. 1. Chriſte Ephe. 1.choſe vsus in him before the beginning of the world, that we might be holy & without ſpot in his ſight, and againe Eph. 5. Chriſt loued his cōgregation Frithes aunſwere to Raſtels thyrd chapter.and gaue himſelf for it, that he might ſanctifie it in the fountaine of water thorow the word to make it wythout ſpot or wrincle or any ſuch thing, but that it ſhould be holy and wythoute blame.
And vponupon theſe textes I conclude, Frith.that if Chriſte hauehave ſo purged vsus that we are wtout ſpot, wrinckle or blame in his ſight, (as Paule teſtifieth) then wil he neuer caſt vsus into Purgatorie. For what ſhould be purged in them, that are withoute ſpotte, wrinckle or blame. And then ſomwhat to declare the matter how we be ſinners as lōg as we liue, and yet without ſynne in the ſight of God, adde theſe woordes which I would that all men did well note, and bicauſe Raſtell leaueth out the beſt of the matter, I will rehearſe my owne wordes againe.
Peraduenture eueryevery man perceiueth not what this meaneth that we are rightwiſe in his ſight, ſéeing that eueryevery man is a ſinner. 1. Ioh. 2. therfore I will bréefely declare the meaning of the Apoſtel. This is fyrſte a cleare caſe, that there liueth no man vppon the earthe without ſynne, not withſtanding all they that were choſen in Chriſt before the foundation of How we are righteous in the ſight of God, & yet …e ſinners.the world were laid, are without ſpot of ſinne in the ſight of God. Epheſ. 1. ſo that they are both ſinners, & rightwiſe if we conſider the imperfection of our faith and charitie, if we conſyder the conflict of the fleſh and the ſpirite. Galath. 5. if we conſider our rebellious membres whiche are vnderunder ſinne. Rom. 7. then are we gréeuous ſinners: and contrary wiſe, if we beléeue that of that mercifull fauor God gaue his moſt deare ſonne to redeme vsus from oure ſinne, if we beléeue that he imputeth not our ſinnes vntounto vsus, but y• his wrath is pacified in Chriſte & his bloud, if we beléeue that he hath fréely giuen vsus his Chriſte, and with him all things, ſo that we be deſtitute of no gift. Rom. 8. then are we righteous Roma. 8.in his ſight, and oure conſcience at peace with God, not thorowe oure ſelues, but thorowe oure Lorde Ieſu Chriſt. Ro. 5. So maiſt thou perceiue Roma. 5.that thou art a ſinner in thy ſelfe, and yet art thou rightwiſe in Chriſte, for We are ſinners in our ſelues and yet righteous in Chriſt.thorow him is not thy ſinne imputed nor reckened vntounto thée, & ſo are they to whome God imputeth not theyr ſinnes, bleſſed rightwiſe wtout ſpot, wrinkle, or blame. Rom. 4. Pſal. 31. Roma. 4. Pſal. 31.And therfore will he neuer thruſt thē into purgatorie, and for proofe of this I alledge (as Raſtel beareth me witneſſe) diuers texts of S. Paul. Eph. 2. Rom. 4. 5. 7. 8. but that notwithſtanding Raſtell.Raſtel ſayth that I hauehave not recited them ſufficiently, for I hauehave left out ſomwhat which I hauehave reherſed for the opening of the truth, and then bringeth in that S. Paule exhorteth and biddeth vsus we ſhall vſe no fornication, vnclenneſſe, auarice, filthe or fooliſh ſpeaches, for ſuch ſhall hauehave no inheritance in the kingdom of heauē, and euen ſo ſay I too, but iudge good Fi…h.reader, what is this to the purpoſe: for it neither maketh for purgatorie, neither agaynſt it. This text I coulde hauehave alleaged if I had endeuored my ſelfe that we ſhould doe good woorkes (which I neuer knew chriſtian man deny) but elſe as touching my matter it is nothing to the purpoſe, and as well he mighte hauehave improued me bicauſe I bring in no text to proue that yt father of heauen is god, or to proue that which neuer man doubted of.
Then he alleageth Paul. Ro. v. vj. Raſtell.ſaying, though grace doe raigne thorow Chriſt, ſhall we therfore dwel in ſinne, nay God forbid ſayth Paule, & euen ſo ſay I againe: he alleageth Rom. viij. that there is no dampnation Raſtell ſetteth a trap wherein he wilbe taken hym ſelfe.to them which be in Chriſt Ieſu if they liue not after the fleſhe, and euen ſo ſay I, but Raſtell will ſay the contrary anone.
Beſides that he alleageth Rom. iij. we be fréely iuſtified by grace, by Chriſtes redemption to ſhew hys iuſtice for the remiſſyon of ſynne done before (and yet ſaythe Raſtell) Paule ſayth that the law is not deſtroyed by fayth but made ſtable, but thys hathe Frith left out of his boke to cauſe the people to beléeue that they be cleane purged by the bloud of Chriſte only, and that there néede no purgatorie.
By theſe words you may euidently Frith.perceyue what Raſtell meaneth by thys alleaging of Paule, for the eſtabliſhing of the lawe, verely that the worke of the lawe ſhould iuſtifie and The workes of the law can not iuſtifie vsus.cleane purge you from ſynne whyche is contrary to Paul and all ſcrypture, for euen in thys ſame Chapter that he alleageth, Paule ſaith: that of workes of the law no fleſh ſhalbe iuſtified in hys ſyght, and ſaythe that the rightwiſeneſſe of God commeth by faythe of Ieſu Chriſt vntounto all, and vppon all that beléeue. But as touching good works, I wil touch more héereafter.
Furthermore Raſtell ſayth, that if Raſtell.my argumentes coulde proue that there is no purgatory, it muſt follow Raſtelles blind argument.as wel that there is no hell for vsus that be chriſten men though we continue ſtill in ſinne: for if we be bleſſed with out ſpot, wrinkle, or blame, and that therefore he will not caſt vsus into purgatory, then he will not caſt vsus into hell whatſoeuer ſinne we do commit.
Here Raſtell vttereth his blindenes Frith.vntounto you, and ſheweth you what vnderſtanding he hath in ſcripture: firſt he armeth himſelfe wyth a falſe ſuppoſition, and yet therupon he concludeth his argument falſly. His ſuppoſition is this, that al men which are baptized with materiall water are very Chriſten men and hauehave the true fayth, Note well this worthy & learned argument.and be thoſe which Paule affirmeth to be without ſpot, blame, or wrinkle. But thereto I ſay nay, for euen as the outwarde circumciſion made not the Iewes the elect people and children of ſaluation, ſo doth not the outwarde baptiſme make vsus the faythfull members of Chriſt: but as they were the children of God, which were inwardly circumciſed, euen ſo they that are waſhed inwardly from the concupiſcens of thys worlde, are the members of Chriſt, whom Paule affirmeth ſo to be purged through his bloud. Agayne, you may know that Raſtell knoweth none other faith but that which may ſtand with all maner of ſinne, but the faith which we ſpeak of, is the ſame which worketh through charitie, wherof Paule, ſpeaketh Gal. 5. They that hauehave thys fayth, are borne of God and ſinne not, theſe Gallat. 5. 1. Iohn 3.that hauehave this faith do hope and looke daily for deliuerance out of this thraldome and body of ſinne: and in the meane ſeaſon they purify themſelues 1. Iohn. 3. …. Iohn. 2.as he is pure. For if a man will ſay that he knoweth Chriſt or beléeueth in him, and kepeth not his commaundementes, he is a lyar, and we renounce him to be any of this number that we ſpeake of. And when Raſtell ſayth, I woulde conclude there is no hell for them that be Chriſten men, though they continue ſtill in ſinne. I Frith.aunſwer, he that committeth ſinne is of the deuill, and I ſay agayne, that the Chriſten that we ſpake of, which are the children of God cannot continue Such chriſten people as are the children of God, will not dwell nor abide in ſin…e, and ſo for thē there is no hell.ſtill in ſinne, but ſéeke all meanes to fulfill Gods commaundementes. Notwithſtanding the chriſten which Raſtel ſpeaketh of which are the children of the deuill, may do as they liſt: and indéede they had néede to make a frende of Raſtell to helpe them into his purgatory, if it be any better then hell: for they ſhall neuer come in heauen, except they repent and walke innocently Luke. 12.in this world, as Chriſt and his little flocke hauehave euer done: for they that walke otherwyſe are none of his, though they weare miters.
This little flocke it is that are ſo The ſmaller number belong to Chriſt, and not y• greater.purged (and not Raſtels multitude) and for this is there neyther hell nor purgatory ordeyned, euen as for the hope that continueth ſtill in ſin is ordayned no heauen. And that there is no hell ordained for theſe faythfull folowers of Chriſt, I will proue euen by this worde of Paule which Raſtel rehearſed before. Rom. 8. That there Rom. 8.is no damnation to them that be in Chriſt Ieſu, if they liue not after the fleſh. Here Raſtell hath ſmitten the ball quite vnderunder the corde, and hath Here Raſtel is taken in his owne trappe.alleged that, that ſhall condemne him. For if there be no damnation, but becauſe you are ſomewhat ſlow in perceauing the matter, I ſhall reduce it into a Sillogiſmus on this manner: There is no damnation vntounto them Maior.that be in Chriſt Ieſu if they liue not after the fleſh, but after the ſpirite. EueryEvery hell is dānation. Ergo, there is no hell to them that be in Chriſt Ieſu Minor.if they liue not after the fleſh but after the ſpirite. This is in the firſt figure made by Relarent. not by any profite that I thinke that the poore cōmōs can take by ſuch babblyng but onelyonly to ſatiſfie your mynde and pleaſure. Notwithſtandyng one thyng I muſt Raſtel falſyfieth the ſcripture.put you in remembraunce, that you hauehave falſly tranſlated the text for the text hath not that cōditional although I was contented to take it at your handes to ſée what you could proue, but the text ſayth thus there is no dā nation to them that are in Chriſt Ieſu, which walke not after the fleſh but after the ſprite: where Paul doth certifie you that they which are in Chriſt Ieſu, walke not after the fleſh but after 1. Cor. 8. Galath. 2.the ſpirite, ſo that you may gather by Paule that if they walke not after the ſpirit they are not in Chriſt Ieſu, that is to ſay: they are none of Chriſtes, although Raſtell will call them Chriſten men, therfore deare brethrē looke that no man deceiue hym ſelfe, for Chriſt is not yt miniſter of ſinnes. If we be deliuered frō ſinne through Roma. 6. 1. Iohn. 2. Phil. 2. Pet. 1.Chriſt, then muſt we walke in a new conuerſation of our life, or els we are ſtill in darknes. Remember that we hauehave this precious treaſure in frayle, britell and earthy veſſels, let vsus therfore with feare and trembling, worke our health, and make ſtable our vocation and electiō, for if we retayne the Roma. 1.truth & knowledge of God in ſinne and vnrighteouſnes we ſhall ſhortly perceiue the wrath of God vppon vsus with infinite deluſions, and the ende of vsus ſhalbe woorſe then the begynnyng: awake therfore and vnderſtād your health.
Now you may ſée howe he concludeth that I eſtablyſhe thys error, that there is no hell, for ſéeing mine arguments, There is no hell to thoſe that are in chriſt Ieſu.and Paule Rom. viij. doe conclude that there is no hel nor dampnation to them that are in Chryſt Ieſu, and are hys faythfull followers, he thinketh it ſhould well folowe that if there be no hell for them, that there is no hell for no man: for in hys ſeconde chapter, and alſo in the beginnyng of the third, he ſaythe that I deny hell, There is a …or ſuche as feare not God nor … his cō maundements.and when we come to hys probation, there is nothyng ſayd but that whych Paul confyrmeth, that is, there is no damp…ton for them that are in Chryſt Ieſu, which walke not after the fleſh, but after the ſprite, whych are thorow Chryſte wythoute ſpotte wrynkle or blame. And ſo though Raſtel appeare to hymſelfe to conclude lyke a ſage Philoſopher, yet I anſwer you he cō cludeth lyke an ignorante Sophyſter as all mē may ſée, for it foloweth not: Paule and Fryth ſay there is no hel, as contrarywiſe it foloweth not there As there is no heauē for good & euil, ſo there is▪ no hell for good and euill.is no heauen for Raſtelles Chryſten men whych contynue ſtyll in ſynne, Ergo there is no heauen for the deuil theyr father, and yet is there heauen for Chryſte and hys electe. I hauehave before declared how Chryſtes elect are ſynners and no ſynners. And nowe bycauſe you ſhoulde not miſtake the tertes of S. Iohn whych I before alleaged, I wyll ſhew you how they do commyt ſynne, whych I dyd alſo fufficiently touch in my anſwer agaynſt Raſtels dialoge, euen two leaues frō the ende, and yet I wyll touche it agayne, bycauſe you ſhall not thyncke that I woulde not leade you in ignorance and darkneſſe.
There are two partes in a faythfull There are two partes in man, that is. the outwarde man and the inward man.man, whych rebell eche agaynſte other, and are at contynuall ſtryfe, and both of them hauehave diuers names in ſerypture, the one is called the inward man, the heart, the mynde, the wyll, and the ſpryte: the other is called the outward man, the rebellyous membres, the bodye of ſynne and the fleſhe, and theſe in a faythfull man kéepe contynuall warre, and allbeit the one be ſubdued and taken pryſonner of the other, yet neuer conſenteth to hys ennemy, he can not leaue him, neyther will make peace wyth hym, but wyll laboure what he can, and wyll call for all that he thynketh wyll helpe hym to be deliuered from hys ennemie, and then warreth vppon hym a freſhe, what tyme the faithfull man is brought to the knowledge of God, and beléeueth in Chryſt, and hath his will and mynde renued with the ſpryte of God that conſenteth to the lawe of God, that is good, ryghteous and holy, and beginneth to louelove the lawe, and hath a will and a deſire to fulfill the lawe of God, and not to deſpyſe hys heauenly father, and looke howe much he loueth the lawe, countyng it ryghtwiſe and holye. Euen ſo muche doth he hate ſynne whych the Howe the inward mā reſiſteth the aſſaultes of the outward man.lawe forbiddeth and abhoreth it in hys heart and inward man, and then albeit the outwarde man and rebellious membres do at time beſéege him and take hym captyue vnderunder ſynne, yet doth not the inward man conſent that thys ſynne is good and the lawe naught, whych forbyddeth it, neyther dothe the heart delighte in thys ſame ſynne, neyther can it delyght in ſuche ſynne, bycauſe the ſpirite of God teſtyfieth vntounto hym that it is abhomynable in the ſyghte of God, and then fyghteth the inwarde man agaynſte the outwarde wyth faythe, prayer, almoſe déedes and faſtyng, and laboureth The faithful man feareth Gods diſpleaſure.to ſubdue the membres, lamenting that he hath bene ouercome, bycauſe he feareth to diſpleaſe God hys father, and deſyreth him for the bloud of hys ſonne Chriſte, that he will forgeue that whych is paſt, and hys diligence that he taketh in tamyng hys membres, is not recompēce towards God for the ſinne that is paſte, but to ſubdue the fleſhe yt he ſynne no more, thys rebellion had Paule. Rom. 7. ſaying, that he dyd not that good thing Roma. 7.whych he would, but the euill whych he hated, that he did, that is, he did not fulfil yt good lawe of God, as hys hart, will, and inwarde man deſyred, but dyd the euill as touchyng hys fleſhe and outwarde man whych he hated, and ſo he ſynned with hys outwarde man, then howe is thys true, that he that committeth ſynne is of the Deuill, and he that is of God committeth no ſynne, was not Paule of God? yes verely, and all be it he committeth ſynne wyth his membres & outwarde man, yet he ſinned not, for he ſaythe. If I doe that thyng that I hate, then How a mā may cōmit ſinne, and yet ſinne not.is it not I that doe it, but the ſynne that dwelleth in me, and euen lykewyſe the faythfull folowers of Chriſt commit no ſynne, for they hate it, and if they fortune to be entangled wyth ſynne, it is not they that doe it (as Paule ſaith) but the ſynne that dwelleth in them, which God hathe left to exerciſe them, as he left yt Philiſtians to exerciſe and nurtoure the children of Iſraell, and if the remnauntes of Sinneremaineth in oure outward membres, to exerciſe the inward mā in reſiſting of ſinne.ſinne fortune at anye time to looke aloft and begin to raigne, then he ſendeth ſome croſſe of aduerſitie or ſickneſſe to helpe to ſuppreſſe them. And thus ſhall it be as long as we liue, but when we be once deade, then oure members rebell no more, and then néedeth neyther purgatorie nor anye other croſſe, for the outwarde man is turned into vanitie, and our inwarde Iohn. 15.mā was euer pure thorow beléeuing the worde of God, and neuer conſented to ſinne, and néedeth nother purgatorie in this world nor in the world to come, but only for ſubduing the outward man, and therfore after this lyfe he ſhall neuer hauehave any purgatorie. Marke well what I ſay and reade it againe, for more ſhall reade it then ſhall vnderſtande it, but he that hathe eares let hym heare.
The ſeconde erroure that Raſtell layeth to my charge, is, that I wold bring the people in belefe that repentance of a man, helpeth not for the remiſſion of his ſinne.
IN prouing this ſecond error againſt me, Raſtel taketh ſo great paynes, Raſtell.that he is almoſte beſydes hym ſelfe. For he ſaith that I would make men Frith.beléeue that it forceth not, whether they ſinne or no. Why ſo brother Raſtel? verely becauſe I allege S. Iohn, Raſtelwold faine canel, but he cannot tell at what.S. Paule, Erechiell and Hieremie to quenche the hotte fire of purgatorie, and allege no aucthorities to proue good woorks, whervnto I anſwer (as I did before) that it is nothing to my purpoſe, for the prouyng of good workes doth neither make for purgatorie nor againſt it, I coulde hauehave alleaged all thoſe textes if I had entended my ſelfe to proue that I ſhoulde doe good woorkes (which I neuer knewe chriſten man denie) but as touchyng my matter it is nothyng to the purpoſe, and as well he mighte hauehave improued me, bicauſe I bryng in no textes to proue that the father of heauē is god, or to proue that whych neuer manne doubted of, notwithſtanding if Raſtel had indifferent eyes, I ſpake ſufficiently of good woorkes in the. 34. argument againſt hys dialoge, let all men read the place and iudge.
Raſtel taketh the matter very gréeuouſly that I attempt to allege howe S. Iohn & S. Paul ſend vsus to Chriſt, Raſtell.and then adde that we know no other to take away ſinne but only Chriſte, and becauſe I adde this worde only, therfore he thinketh that I cleane deſtroy Frith. There is no meane to put away ſinne, but only by Chriſte.repentance, whereunto I aunſwere, that I added not thys woorde only for naught, but I did it by the authoritie of S. Iohn, which ſaith: if we walke in the lighte, as he is in the lyght, we hauehave felowſhip with eche other, and in the bloud of Ieſu Chriſte hys ſonne, purifyeth vsus frō all ſinne, wherupon I ſay that for vsus which are in the lyght, hys bloud only is ſufficient, but for your chriſten men whych continue ſtill in ſinne, and walke in darkeneſſe after theyr father the Deuill, muſte ſome other meanes be For ſuche as dwell in the lyght of Chriſt, hys bloud onlye to ſufficiēt.founde, or elſe they ſhall neuer enter into the kingdome of heauen.
But bicauſe I will be ſhort, let Raſtell note that I fynde two manner of repentance, one is without faith, and There are two maner, of repentances.is ſuche a repentaunce as Iudas and Raſtels chriſten men which continue ſtill in ſinne hauehave at the latter ende, which dothe rather purchace them an halter then the remiſſion of ſinnes.
An other repentance foloweth, iuſtification and remiſſiō of ſinnes, and is a floriſhing frute of faith, for when True repē tance is a floriſhing frute of faith.by faith we do perceiue the fauor and kindneſſe that our louing father hath ſhewed vsus in his ſonne Chryſt Ieſu, and that he hathe reconcyled vsus vntounto hymſelfe by the bloude of hys ſonne. Thē begin we to louelove him, the more we hate the body of ſinne, and lamēt and be ſory that our membres are ſo fraile, that they can not fulfil the lawe of God, and ſo in mourning and bewayling our infirmitie, it cauſeth vsus to abſtaine from bothe meat & drinke and all worldly pleaſures, which is What pure faſting is.is the pure faſting that we talke of, but you vnderſtande it not: and thys repentaunce commeth not to purge the ſinnes which is cōmitted before, but only taketh an occaſyon by the ſinnes before committed, to knowe what poyſon there remained in oure ſleſhe, and ſéeketh all meanes to make vsus hate this body of ſinne, and to ſubdue it wyth all manner of works that God hathe appoynted, to the entente that it ſhould in time to come no more diſpleaſe God our moſte merciful father, which of gentleneſſe ſo often pardoneth and forgeueth vsus, as I hauehave touched before. This is the maner of repentaunce which I finde in ſcripture, but this helpeth that we ſhoulde ſinne no more, but what Raſtell dreameth, I wot not. But to expreſſe to the vttermoſt what I meane Repentāce liuely declared by an example.by repentaunce, marke this example. If a man build an houſe which dothe coſt him muche labor and money, and hauehave layde no ſure foundation, but that when a tempeſt commeth, hys houſe dothe fall, then will he be very ſory, and repente that he hathe ſo fooliſhly beſtowed his money and labor. Not wtſtanding, all thys great ſorow & repentance can not ſet vp his houſe againe whych is fallen, but only it taketh an occaſion by the ruine of the houſe, to teache the owner witte againſte an other time, that when he buildeth againe, he may make a ſure foundation. Euen ſo though thou repent neuer ſo much, that can not get remiſſion for the ſinnes that is paſt, but that muſte be pardoned onelyonly by the faithe of Chriſtes bloude. Neuertheleſſe it dothe teache thée witte, and learne thée to tame thy body and ſubdue it, and caſt a lowe foūdacion, that in time thou mayſte the better reſiſte the aſſaultes of the deuill, the worlde and the fleſhe. This doth Frith teach of repentaunce, let the worlde take it as they will, but Chryſtes ſhéepe doe heare his voyce.
¶ The third errour which Raſtell layeth againſt me is, that I would make men beleue that they need not to do penaunce for the ſatiſfaction of their ſinnes.
EVery childe may aunſwer him to thys if he euer read or perceaue what I wrote before of repentaunce, for as they take repentaunce for the ſorow and mourning that followeth the crime, euen ſo they call penaunce the good workes that enſue of repentaunce, and theſe good woorks which folow do mortifie the members, and How good workes do mortify our membres.exerciſe vsus in Gods commaundementes that we ſinne no more: but they can get no more remiſſion of the ſinne which is once paſt, then that which they call repentaunce: and yet do we neyther deſtroy ſorowing for ſinne, nor good workes as he falſly reporteth by vsus, but we teach you how they ought to be done, and that they are fruites of fayth, and mortifie our members, and are profitable to our neighbour, and a teſtinony vntounto vsus Good workes are the fruites of fayth.that we are the children of our heauenly Father, as by example I ſay, that neither the ſunne nor the moone do iuſtiūe vsus, or purchaſe remiſſion of our ſinnes, and yet I woulde not that Raſtell ſhould ſay, that I deny or deſtroy the ſunne and the moone, for I ſay that without them we can hauehave no light, and that we can not be without them. And as touching the ſolution of this, that penaunce taking in his largeſt ſignification, both for good workes and taking of paynes, is not ſatiſfaction for ſinnes. I muſt tell you once againe that there are two manner of ſatiſfactions, the one is to God the other to my neighbour. To God There are two maner of ſatiſfactions.can not all the world make ſatiſfaction for one crime: inſomuch that if eueryevery graſſe of the ground were a mā as holy as euer was Paule or Peter, and ſhoulde pray vntounto God all theyr life long for one crime, yet could they not make ſatiſfaction for it, but it is onelyonly the bloud of Chriſt, that hath made ful ſatiſfaction vntounto God for all ſuch crimes. Heb. 7: or els were Hebr. 7.there none other remedye, but wee ſhould all periſh. There is an other ſatiſfaction which is to my neighbour whom I hauehave offended, whom I am Satiſfactiō to our neighbour.bound to pacifie as we two can agrée, and as the lawes of the realme determine betwéene vsus, as if I had defamed him, then am I bound to pacifie hym, and to reſtore hym to hys good name againe: if I hauehave murdered any man, then by the lawes of the Realme I muſt dye for it, to pacifie my neighbour & the common wealth: But yet I am ſure Raſtell is not ſo childiſh, as to thincke that thys ciuyle ſatiſfaction is the verye ſatiſfaction which pacifieth Gods wrath for breaking his law: For if thou murther a man, and ſhould dye a hundred times for it, yet except thou hauehave ſatiſfaction of Chriſtes bloud, thou ſhalt be damned thereto: and ſo I ſpake that no tēporall paine was inſtituted of God for the intent that we ſhould ſatiſfye Gods wrath therby, as it is plaine in my booke if Raſtell could ſée.
¶ The fourth errour that he layeth agaynſt me is, that I would perſwade the people that good works ar nothing auailable.
NOw are we come to the fourthe errour, where Raſtell vntruly reporteth on me that I would perſuade the people that good woorkes done by any man in thys worlde is nothing auayleable vntounto him that doth them, & that it is no hurt nor hindraunce vntounto any man, though he neuer do none. Becauſe I ſay they iuſtifie not before God, therfore he thinketh that other men would vnderſtand me as wiſely as he doth, and argue that they are no thing auayleable, but I muſt deſire him to put on hys ſpectacles and looke agayne vppon my booke, and he ſhall finde theſe woordes. Peraduenture Good workes are to be done and why?thou wilt aunſwere vntounto me, ſhall I then do no good déedes? I aunſwere, yes: thou wilt aunſwere me, wherefore? I aunſwere, thou muſt do them becauſe God hath commaunded thē. I aunſwere, thou art lyuing in thys worlde with men, and haſt conuerſation with them, therfore hath God appoynted thée what thou ſhalt do to the profite of thy neighbour and taming of thy fleſh, as Paule teſtifieth, Ephe. 2. We are his worke in Chriſt Ieſu, Epheſ. 2.vntounto good woorkes, which woorkes God hath prepared that we ſhoulde walke in them. Theſe woorkes God would hauehave vsus do that the vnfaithfull might ſée the godly and vertuous conuerſation of his faythfull, and therby be compelled to glorifie our Father which is in heauen. Math. 5. and ſo are they both profitable vntounto thy neighbour, Good workes are profitable to our neighbour and alſo a teſtimony that we are the children of God.& alſo a teſtimony vntounto thée, by the which a man may know that thou art the right ſonne of thy heauē ly Father, and a very chriſt vntounto thy neighbour: and after teacheth that we ought to do theſe woorkes without hauyng reſpect eyther to heauen or hell, but attending through charitie the wealth of our neighbour. &c.
I wonder that Raſtell is not aſhamed to ſay that I would make them beleue that they are not auaylable, therfore good reader note my wordes, firſt I ſay we muſt do them becauſe God hath commaūded them, is it not auaylable to kéepe the commaundements of God? ſecondaryly I ſay that they are to the profite of my neyghbour: is it not auaylable? thirdly I ſay that they tame our fleſh, is it not auailable? fourthly I ſay they are to the glory of God, is it not auailable? Fiftly I ſay they are a teſtimony to them that doth them by the which mē may know yt he is yt very ſonne of God, is that not auaylable? belyke Raſtell coū teth nothing auailable but that which iuſtifieth before God, he will ſay the ſonne is not auaylable becauſe it iuſtifieth not, fire is not auaylable in his eyes bycauſe it iuſtifieth not. &c.
Then Raſtell ſayth that I make a wonders worke with yt Scripture, & alledgeth certaine textes yt we ought to do good workes (which I neuer denyed) and thereupon would conclude that woorkes ſaue and iuſtifie, and playeth me the ball luſtly ouer the corde, but as God would there ſtode a poſt right in the way and he hytte it ſo full, that it made the ball to reboūd ouer agayne backward, for in the alledgyng of his purpoſe Paule ſayth. Ephe. 2. he hath cleane loſt the game: Ephe. 2.the wordes are theſe, by grace you be ſaued by your fayth and that is not of We are iuſtified by grace and fayth, whiche is not of our ſelues, but is the gift of God.you, it is the gift of God and not of woorkes that no man ſhould glorifie hym ſelfe, we are the workes created of God in Chriſt Ieſu whiche God hath prepared that we ſhould walke in them, here becauſe he would hauehave the latter ende of the text to ſerue for hys purpoſe whiche teacheth good workes (which I neuer denyed) hée bryngeth in that thyng whiche cleane confuteth his opiniō, for his opinion (which in all places he hath laboured to proue) is that we are ſaued by good workes, but now marke what he alledgeth out of Paule by grace you be ſaued by your fayth: and that is not of you, it is the gift of God and not of workes. For that no man ſhould glorifie him ſelfe, here Paule ſaith plainly that our ſaluatiō is not of workes: and ſo hath Raſtell caſt down that he Raſtell hath here ouerthrowē all that he hath before built and ſet vp.built before, and may be likened to a ſhrewde cowe, whiche when ſhe hath geuen a large meſſe of milke turneth it downe with her hele.
Thus hauehave I aunſwered to as much of Raſtels treatiſe as I could get, if there be any more whiche may come to my handes I ſhall do my diligence to diſcloſe hys diſceite ſo that God geue me leaue to kéepe the court with hym he ſhall wynne but litle, except he conuey his balles more craftly, and yet the truth to ſay we play not on euen hand, for I am in a maner as a man bound to a poſt, and can not ſo well beſtow me in my play, as as if I were at libertie, for I may not hauehave ſuch bookes as are neceſſary for me, neither yet penne, inke, ne paper, but onelyonly ſecretly, ſo that I am in continuall feare, both of the Lefetenaūt and of my kéeper, leſt they ſhould eſpy any ſuch thyng by me: and therfore it is litle meruell though the woorke be vnperfite: for when ſoeuer I heare Ihon Frith was ſtreightly kept.the keyes ryng at the doore, ſtrayte all much be cōueyed out of the way (and then if any notable thyng had bene in my mynde) it was cleane loſt, & therfore I beſech thée good reader count it as a thyng borne out of ſeaſon, which for many cauſes can not hauehave his perfeite forme and ſhape, and pardon me my rudenes and imperfection.
¶ FINIS.