Whole Works, Tracts 1 · Tract 4 · Part 3
An aunſwere to M. Mores ſecond booke.
IN the firſt Chapter ye may not try the doctrine of the ſpiritualtie by the Scripture: But what they ſay, that beleue vndoubtedly and by that try the Scripture. And if thou The Pope…be …d by ſcripture & by ſcripture muſt be iudged ….finde the playne contrary in the Scripture, thou mayſt not beleue the Scripture, but ſeke a Gloſe and an allegorie to make them agree. As whē the pope ſayth, ye be iuſtified by the woorkes of the ceremonies and Sacramentes and ſo forth, and the Scripture ſayth, that we be iuſtified at the repentaūce of the hart through Chriſtes bloud. The firſt is true playne, as the pope ſayth it and as it ſtandeth in his text, but the ſecōd is falſe as it appeareth vntounto thine vnderſtandyng and the literall ſence that killeth. Thou muſt therfore beleue the Pope and for Chriſtes doctrine ſeeke an allegorie and a myſticall ſence: that is, thou muſt leaue the cleare light and walke in the miſte. And yet Chriſt and his Apoſtles for all their miracles required ☞ Iohn. 5.not to be beleued without ſcripture, as thou mayſt ſee Iohn. v. and Act. xvij. and by their diligent alledgyng of Scripture through out all the new Teſtament.
And in the end he ſayth for his pleaſure, None can miniſter the Sacramentes ſuper…ly but the Popes generation.that we knowledge, that no man may miniſter Sacramēts but he that is deriuede out of the Pope. Howbeit this we knowledge, that no man could miniſter Sacramentes without ſignification which are no Sacramentes, ſaue ſuch as are of the Popes generation.
The iij. Chapter.
IN the third Chapter & in the Chapter folowyng, he vttereth how fleſhly mynded he is, and how beaſtly he imagineth of God, as Paule ſayth. 1. 1. Cor. 2.Cor. 2. the naturall man can not vnderunder ſtand the thyngs of the ſpirite of God. He thinketh of God, as he doth of hys The naturall & carnall man ſauoreth not the thinge that be of God.Cardinall, that he is a monſter, pleaſed when men flatter him, & if of whatſoeuer frailtie it be, men breake his cō maundementes, he is thē ragyng mad as the Pope is & ſeketh to be venged. Nay, God is euer fatherly minded toward the elect mēbers of his Church. He loued them yer the world began, in Chriſt. Ephe. 1. He loueth thē, while they be yet euill & his enemies in their Rom. 5. God is fatherly to his elect members.hartes, yer they be come vntounto y• knowledge of his ſonne Chriſt, and yer his law be written in their hartes: as a father loueth his young ſonne, while he is yet euill & yer it know the fathers law to conſent therto.
And after they be once actually of his Church and the law of God & faith of Chriſt written in their hartes, their hartes neuer ſinne any more, though as Paul ſayth. Rom. vij. the fleſh doth Rom. 7.in them that the ſpirit would not. And when they ſinne of frailtie, God ceaſeth I… we ſinne of frailtie God is mercifull & ready to forgeue.not to louelove them ſtill, though he …e angry, to put a croſſe of tribulatiōs vponupon their backes, to purge them and to ſubdue the fleſh vntounto the ſpirite or to all to breake their conſciences with threatnyng of the law and to feare thē with hell. As a father when his ſonne offēdeth him feareth him with the rod, but hateth him not.
God did not hate Paule, when he perſecuted, but had layd vp mercy for hym in ſtore, though he was angry with him to ſcourge him and to teach him better. Neither were thoſe things layd on his backe which he after ſuffered, to make ſatiſfaction for his foreſinnes, but onelyonly to ſerue his brethren and to keepe the fleſh vnderunder. Neither The new life doth tame the fleſhe and ſerue her neighbour▪did God hate Dauid when he had ſinned, though he was angry with hym. Neither did he after ſuffer to make ſatiſfactiō to God for his old ſinnes, but to kepe his fleſh vnderunder & to keepe him in mekeneſſe and to be an example for our learnyng.
The iiij. Chapter.
IN the fourth ſayth he if the Churche were an vnknowē cōpany, how ſhould the infidels, if they longed for the fayth, come thereby? O whether wandereth a fleſhly mynde, as though we firſt God ſeketh vsus and we not hym.ſought out God. Nay, God kitoweth his and ſeketh them out & ſendeth his meſſengers vntounto them & geueth them an hart to vnderſtand. Did the heathē or any nation ſeke Chriſt? Nay, Chriſt ſought them and ſent his Apoſtles vntounto them. As thou ſeeſt in the ſtoryes from the begynnyng of the world and as the parables and ſimilitudes of the Goſpell declare.
And when he ſayth, he neuer founde nor heard of any of vsus, but that he would More a lying papiſt.forſweare to ſaue his lyfe. Aunſwere, the more wrath of God wil light on them, that ſo cruelly delite to torment them and ſo craftely to beguile the weake. Neuertheleſſe yet it is vntrue. For he hath heard of Sir Thomas Hitton whō Sir Thomas Hitton.the Byſhops of Rocheſter and Caunterbury ſlew at Maydſtone and of many yt ſuffered in Braband, Holand, & at Colen and in all quarters of Dutchland and do dayly.
And when he ſayth that their Church hath many Martyrs, let hym ſhewe me The Pope hath no martyrs.one, that dyed for pardons, and Purgatory that the Pope hath fayned, and let him take the maſtrie.
And what a do maketh he, that we ſay, there is a Church that ſinneth not & that there is no man but that he ſinneth, whiche are yet both true. We read. i. Iohn. iij. he that is borne of God ſinneth 1. Iohn. 3.not. And Epheſ. v. men louelove your wiues as the Lord doth the Churche, and gaue him ſelfe for her, to ſanctifie There is a church that ſinneth not.her and to clenſe her in the fountaine of water through the word, and to make her a glorious Church vntounto hym ſelfe, without ſpot or wrincle.
And i. Iohn. i. If we ſay, we hauehave no ſinne we deceaue our ſelues and make him a lyer and hys word is not in vsus. M. More alſo wil not vnderſtand that the Church is ſome time taken for The churh is double.the elect onelyonly whiche hauehave the law of God written in their hartes & fayth to be ſaued through Chriſt written there alſo. Which ſame for all that ſay with Paule, that good which I would, that do I not. But that euill which I hate, that do I: ſo it is not I that do it, but ſinne that dwelleth in my fleſh.
And Gala. v. the fleſh luſteth cōtrary to ye ſpirit & the ſpirit cōtrary to y• fleſh, Gal. 5.ſo that theſe two fightyng betwene thē ſelues, ye can not do what ye would. For they neuer conſent that ſinne is good nor hate y• law nor ceaſe to fight againſt the fleſh, but aſſoone as they be fallen, riſe and fight a freſh. And that the Church is ſome tyme taken for the cōmō raſcal of all that beleue, whether with the mouth onelyonly & carnally with out ſpirite neither louyng the law in The carnall church ſinneth.their harts, nor feelyng the mercy that is in Chriſt, but either runne all together at riot or keepe the law with cautels and expoſitions of their owne faynyng and yet not of louelove but for feare of hell, as the theues do for feare of the galowes, & make recompence to God for their ſinnes with holy dedes.
He alſo will not vnderſtand, that Two maner faithes.there be two maner faythes: one, that is the fayth of the elect, which purgeth them of all their ſinnes for euer. As ye ſee Iohn. xv. ye be cleane ſayth Chriſt, Iohn. 15.by the reaſon of the word: that is, thorough beleuyng Chriſts doctrine. And Iohn. i. he gaue them power to be the ſonnes of God, through beleuyng in his name. And Iohn. iij. he that beleueth the ſonne hath euerlaſtyng lyfe, & a thouſand like textes.
And an other of them that be called The …aith of them that be called▪ but not elect.and neuer electe. As the faith of Iudas, of Symon Magus, of the deuill, and of the Pope. In whoſe hartes the law of God is not written, as it appeareth by their workes. And therfore when they beleue many thynges of Chriſt, yet whē they come vntounto the ſaluation that is in his bloud, they be but Iewes and Turkes & forſake Chriſt and runne vntounto the iuſtifying of ceremonies with the Iewes & Turkes. And therefore they remayne euer in ſinne within in their hartes.
Where the elect hauing the law written in their breſtes & leuyng it in theyr ſpirites, ſinne there neuer, but without in the fleſh. Agaynſt whiche ſinne they fight continually and miniſhe it dayly with the helpe of the ſpirite, thorough prayer, faſting and ſeruing their neighbours louyngly with all maner ſeruice, out of the law that is writtē in their harts. And their hope of forgeueneſſe is in Chriſt onelyonly, through his bloud and not in ceremonies.
The v. Chapter.
ANd vntounto hys v. Chapter I anſwere, by the Pope the ſcripture The Pope hideth the ſcripture.is hid and brought into ignoraunce, & the true ſence corrupt. And by thē that ye call heretickes we know the ſcripture and the true ſence thereof. And I ſay, that the Pope keepeth the ſcripture as did ye Phariſeis, to make marchaundiſe of it. And agayne, that the heretickes become out of you, as out of the Scribes and Phariſeis came the Apoſtles and Chriſt himſelfe & Iohn Baptiſt, and that they be plucked out of you and graffed in Chriſt and built vppon the foundation of the Apoſtles and Prophetes.
And in the end, when he ſayth that The heretikes be fallen out of the miſt.the heretickes be fallen out of Chriſtes miſticall body, which is the Pope and hys. I aunſwere that ye be a miſticall body, and walke in the miſt and wyll not come at the light, and the heretikes be departed out of your miſt, and walke in the cleare light of Gods worde.
The vj. Chapter.
IN the vj. he ſayth that the heretikes be all nought, for they all periure and abiure. He yet ſaith vntrue. Many abyde vntounto the death. Many for theyr Why many …all.weakeneſſe are kept out of your hāds. Many for their ouer much boldneſſe in their owne ſtrength be deliuered into your handes and fall in the fleſhe, their hartes abiding ſtill in the truth, as Peter and thouſandes did, & after repent and be no leſſe Chriſten thē before, though ye hauehave them in deriſion vntounto your owne damnation. And many becauſe they come to Chriſt for fleſhly liberty and not for louelove of the truth, fall as it becommeth them vnderunder your handes: as Iudas and Balam, which at the beginning take Chriſtes parte, but afterward when they fynde eyther loſſe or no vauntage, they get them vntounto the contrary part, and are by profeſſion the moſt cruell enemyes, and ſubtelleſt perſecuters of the truth. Looke Maiſter More and reade and marke well.
The vij. Chapter.
IN the vij. he ſayth, that he hath holy Saintes and holy counſels on hys ſide. Name the Saintes & proue it. Name the counſelles and the holy Prelates Councels.thereof. Thou ſhalt ſhew me none other Popes or Cardinals, then ſuch as we hauehave now, that will obey neyther God nor mā, or any law made by God or man: but compell all men to follow them, ſtrengthning their kyngdome wyth the multitude of all miſdoers.
He ſayth alſo that good and bad worſhip Saintes, the good well and the bad euill How cōmeth it then that ye ſhew not the difference, and teach to do it well? I ſee but one faſhion among all the popiſhe.
And finally he ſayth, he is not boun… to anſwere vntounto the reaſons and ſcriptures that are layde agaynſt them. It is inough to proue their part, that it is a ☜common cuſtome, and that ſuch a multitude do it, and ſo by his doctrine the Turkes are in the right way.
The viij. Chapter.
IN the viij. he ſayth, the Saintes be Saintes.more charitable now then when they liued. I anſwere, Abrahā was while he lyued as charitable as the beſt. And yet dead, he anſwered hym that prayed to hym, they hauehave Moſes and y• Prophetes, let them heare them. And ſo Luke. 1…hauehave we, not Moſes and the prophets onelyonly, but a more cleare light, euen Chriſt and the Apoſtles, vntounto which if we harken, we be Saintes already.
And to proue that they in heauen be better then we in earth, he alleageth a text of our Sauiour Luke. vij. that the worſt in heauen is better then Ihon Baptiſt. Now ye text is, he that is leſſe in the kingdome of God is greater thē Luke. 7.he. We that beleue are Gods kyngdome. And he that is leaſt (in doyng ſeruice vntounto hys brethren) is euer the greateſt after the doctrine of Chriſt. Now Chriſt was leſſe then Ihon, and Chriſt dy… ſuch ſeruice as all the Saintes could not do.therfore greater then he. And by theyr owne doctrine, there was no Sainte in heauen before the reſurrection of Chriſt, but what care they what they ſay, blynded wyth theyr owne ſophiſtrye.
Moreouer curſed is he that truſteth in ought ſaue God ſayth the text, and therfore the Saintes would hauehave no man to truſt in them whyle they were aliue. As Paule ſayth 1. Cor. 3. What 1. Cor. 3.is Paule ſaue your ſeruaunt to preach Chriſt. Did Paule dye for you? were ye baptiſed in the name of Paule? Did I not mary you to Chriſt to put your truſt in hym? And agayne, let no man reioyce or truſt in man, ſayth he. For all are youres, whether Paule, or Appollo, or Cephas: whether the world, life, death, preſent thynges, or thynges to come: all are youres, and ye are Chriſtes, and Chriſt is Gods. If my fayth be ſtedfaſt in the promiſes that I hauehave in Chriſtes bloud, I néede but to pray my father in Chriſtes name, and he ſhall ſend me a legion of Angels to helpe me: ſo that my fayth is Lord ouer the Angels and ouer all creatures to turne them vntounto my ſoules health and my fathers honour, and may be ſubiect vntounto no creature, but vntounto Gods woorde in our Sauiour Chriſt We may not truſt to Saintes.onelyonly. I may hauehave no truſt therefore in the Saintes. If ye ſay, ye put no truſt in them, but onelyonly put them in remembraunce of their dutie, as a man deſireth his neighbour to pray for him, remembring hym of hys dutie, and as when we deſire our brethren to helpe vsus at our neede. That is falſe, for ye put truſt in all your ceremonies & all your holy deedes, and in whoſoeuer diſguiſeth hymſelfe and altereth hys coat from the common faſhion, ye and euen in the coates of them that be not yet Saintes, after your dortrine.
If a prieſt ſayd maſſe in his gowne, would ye not riſe againſt hym and ſlea hym, and that for the falſe fayth that ye hauehave in the other garmētes. For what honour can thoſe other garmentes do to God more then hys gowne or profite vntounto your ſoules▪ ſeyng ye vnderſtand nought thereby? And therto in the collectes of Saintes ye ſay, ſaue me God and geue me euerlaſtyng lyfe for the merites of thys or that Saint, eueryevery man after his phantaſie, chuſing hym one Saint ſingularly to be ſaued Prayer to Saintes is a great ſuperſtition.by. Wyth which collectes I pray you ſhew me, how ſtandeth the death of Chriſt? Paule woulde ſay that Chriſt dyed in vayne if that doctrine were true.
And therto in as much as ye ſay, the Saintes merite or deſerue not in heauen, but in this worlde onelyonly, it is to be feared leaſt their merites be ſore waſted, and the deſeruynges of many all ſpent thorowe our holy fathers ſo great liberalitie.
Abraham and the Prophetes, and y• Apoſtles, and many ſince prayed to no Before Chriſt we vſed not to pray to Saintes.Saintes, and yet were holy inough.
And when he ſayth, they could helpe when they were aliue. That was thorow their fayth in beleuing the promiſe. For they had promiſes that they ſhuld do ſuch miracles to ſtabliſh their doctrine, and to prouoke vntounto Chriſt, and not vntounto them ſelues.
And whē he proueth that ye Saintes be in heauen in glory wyth Chriſt already, ſaying: if God be their God they be in heauē, for he is not the God of the dead. There he ſtealeth away Chriſtes argument wherewyth he proueth the M. More deſtroyeth the reſurrection.reſurrection, that Abraham and all Saintes ſhoulde riſe agayne, and not that their ſoules were in heauē, which doctrine was not yet in the worlde. And wyth that doctrine he taketh away the reſurrection quite, and maketh Chriſtes argumēt of none effect. For when Chriſt alleageth the Scripture that God is Abrahams God, & addeth to, that God is not God of the dead but of the liuing, and ſo proueth that Abraham muſt riſe agayne: I deny Math. 2….Chriſtes argument and ſay wyth M. More, that Abraham is yet aliue, not becauſe of the reſurrection, but becauſe hys ſoule is in heauē. And in like maner Paules argument vntounto the Corrinthians is nought worth. For when 1. Cor. 15.he ſayth, if there be no reſurrection, we be of all wretches the miſerableſt. Here we hauehave no pleaſure, but ſorrow, care, and oppreſſion. And therfore if we riſe not agayne, all our ſuffering is in vayne. Nay Paul, thou art vnlearned▪ go to Maiſter More and learne a new way. We be not moſt miſerable, though we ryſe not agayne, for our ſoules go to heauen aſſoone as we be dead, and are there in as great ioy as Chriſt that is riſē againe. And I maruell that Paule had not comforted the Theſſalonians wyth that doctrine, if he had wiſt it, that the ſoules of their 1. Theſ. 4.dead had bene in ioy, as he did wyth the reſurrection, that their dead ſhould riſe agayne. If the ſoules be in heauen in as great glorie as the aungels after your doctrine, ſhewe me what cauſe ſhould be of the reſurrection.
And when hee ſayth, Whether the Saintes do it them ſelues, or by interceſſion made to God, it maketh no matter, ſo we be holpe, it appeareth by his doctrine, that all is good that helpeth, though a man pray vntounto the deuill, by whom many be holpe. Now in Chriſt we hauehave promiſes of all maner helpe & The more truſt we hauehave in Saintes, the leſſe we hauehave in Chriſt.not in them. Where then is our faith to be holpe by Chriſt when we hope to be holpe by the merites of Saintes? So it appeareth that the more truſt we hauehave in Saintes, the leſſe we hauehave in Chriſt.
And whē he bringeth in a ſimilitude that we pray Phiſitions, though God can Phiſitionshelpe vsus, and therefore we muſt pray to Saintes. It is not like, for they hauehave naturall remedies for vsus which we muſt vſe & not tempt God. But the Saints hauehave no natural remedies nor promiſe of ſupernaturall. And therfore it can be but a falſe ſuperſtitious fayth. And where no natural remedy is there god hath promiſed to helpe thē that beleue in hym,
And moreouer when I pray a Phiſition or Surgion and truſt to be holpe by them, I diſhonour God, except I firſt pray to God & beleue that he will woorke with their doctrine and medicines and ſo receaue mine health of the hand of God. And euen ſo whē I pray to man, to helpe me at myne neede, I ſinne except I complayne firſt to God We muſt firſt call vppon God, & then ſende for the phiſition.and ſhew him my nede and deſire hym to moue one or an other to helpe me, & then whē I am holpe, thanke him and receaue it of his hand, in as much as hee moued the hart of hym that holpe me & gaue him wherewith, and a commaundement to do it. M. More, Chriſt is not diſhonoured becauſe that they which here preach hym truly, ſhall ſit and iudge with hym. Tyndale. That to be true ye Scripture teſtifieth, but what is that to your purpoſe that they whiche be dead can heare vsus & helpe vsus? How beit, if M. More ſhould deſcribe vsus thoſe ſectes, I am ſure he would paint them after the faſhion of my Lord Cardinals holy chaire, as he doth God after the ſimilitude of worldly tyraunts and not accordyng to his owne word. For they that be worldly and fleſhly mynded The fleſhly mynded cānot iudge the thinges that be of God.can but fleſhly imagine of God all together lyke vntounto the ſimilitude of worldely thynges.
M. More. The Apoſtles and Saintes were prayed ſo when they were aliue and God not diſhonoured. Tynd. What helpeth that your carnal purpoſe. I hauehave aunſwered you vntounto that & many thinges …o in the obediēce and other places agaynſt whiche ye reply not, but keepe your tune and vntounto all thyng ſyng kokow, kokow, we be the Church & can not erre. The Apoſtles had Gods word for all that they dyd and ye none. 1. Cor. 3.And yet many diſhonoured God and Chriſt for their falſe truſt & confidence whiche they had in ye Apoſtles as thou mayſt ſee by Paul to the Corinthians.
Then he breaketh forth into open blaſphemy and ſayth that it behoueth More driueth from God.vsus to pray vntounto Saints and that God will els not heare vsus, for our preſumptuous malaperteneſſe. So it is now preſumptuous malaperteneſſe to truſt in Gods word and to beleue that God is true. Paule teacheth vsus to be bolde Heb. 4.to goe vntounto God & ſheweth vsus good cauſe in Chriſt, why we ſo may & that God would ſo hauehave vsus. Neither is there any cauſe to kepe vsus backe, ſaue that we louelove him not nor truſt him. If a man ſay, our ſinne ſhould keepe vsus backe. I ſay it we repent and beleue in Chriſt, Chriſt hath taken them away and therfore, through hym we may be bolde. And Chriſt ſayd at his laſt Supper Iohn. xvj. I ſay not that I will Iohn. 1….pray for you vntounto my father, for my father loueth you. As who ſhould ſay, be not afrayed nor ſtād without the dores as a daſtard: but be bolde & go into my father your ſelues in my name, & ſhew your complayntes, for he now loueth you, becauſe ye louelove my doctrine. And Paul ſayth Ephe. ij. we hauehave all an opē Epheſ. 2.way in through him, and are now no more forenners or ſtraungers but of ye houſhold of God. Of God therfore we be bold as of a moſt louyng and mercifull We may be bolde to … ſort to god for he … leth vsus ſo to do.father, aboue all the mercy of fathers. And of our Sauiour Ieſus we be bold, as of a thyng that is our owne and more our owne then our owne ſkinnes, and a thyng that is ſo ſoft and gentle, that lade we him neuer ſo much with our ſinnes, he can not be angry nor caſt them from of his backe, ſo we repent and will amende. But M. More hath an other doctrine to driue vsus frō God and to make vsus tremble and be afferde of him.
He likeneth God to worldly tyrauntes, at whom no man may come, ſaue a few flatterers whiche miniſter vntounto them all vol…ptuouſneſſe & ſerue their lu…es at all pointes which flatterers muſt firſt be corrupt with giftes, yer a man may come at the kyng. Thē hee ſayth, a man may pray to eueryevery dead M. More is againſt the Popes profite.man. That me thinketh ſhould be agaynſt the Popes doctrine and profite alſo. For he will hauehave no man prayed to vntill he hauehave cāueſed him, I would ſay, canoniſed hym, and till God or at the le…t way the deuill hauehave ſhewed miracles for him.
Then he bringeth how one that was dead and in the inuiſible purgatory holpe Purgatory▪an other that was alyue and in the viſible Purgatory. This is a ſtraunge caſe, that a man there may helpe an other & not him ſelfe. And a more ſtraūge caſe that God heareth a man here for hym ſelfe, beyng in his owne Purgatory and helpeth … purgatory viſible, and a purgatory in…ſible.him cleane out, or caſeth him if it be to ſore. But and he be in the Popes Purgatory God wil not heare him for him ſelfe, and that becauſe the Pope might hauehave ſomewhat to deliuer hym. And the ſtraungeſt caſe of a… is that the Pope is almighty there and God can do there nought at all as the Pope can not here in this Purgatory. But becauſe this is not Gods word nor lyke Gods doctrine, I thinke it no damnable ſinne to beleue it Poetrie.
Then how ye may pray for them and to them, till they be canoniſed: and whē Canoniſ…they be canoniſed, but to them onelyonly, for then ye be ſure that they bee in heauen. By what token? I may be as ſure by ye canoniſing, as I am that all the Byſhops How you may know who be Saintes in heauen.which the Pope confirmeth, be holy men, and all the Doctours that he maketh well learned, and that all the Prieſts which he annoynteth hauehave the holy ghoſt. If ye ſay, becauſe of the miracles, then do men wrong to pray King Henry of Windſore.for kyng Henry of Windſore at Cambridge and Eton. For he, as men ſay doth miracles. And alſo if the miracles certifie vsus, what nedeth to buy the Popes canoniſyng?
The ix. Chapter.
IN the ix. he putteth no ieopardy to A ſtraunge doctrine to pray to him for helpe that is dead & damned,pray to him that, is dāned and to ſticke vp a candle to him, nor I trow vntounto the deuill thereto, if hee might hauehave a vauntage by him.
Then he maketh no ieopardy to do and beleue what ſoeuer an open multitude called Gods Church doth and beleueth. For God will hauehave an open Church that can not erre. For ſayth he, when the Iſraelites fell to Idolatry, the true church remained in Hieruſalē among the Iewes. Firſt I ſay, if a man had no better vnderſtandyng then M. Mores doctrine, he could not know whether were yt true Church, the Iewes or the Iſraelites. For the Iſraelites were in number v. The Iſraelites were …o in number thē the Iewes.tymes moe then the Iewes and worſhypped God, though as preſent in the Image of a Calfe, as yt Iewes for the moſt part, preſent in the Arcke of teſtimonie. And ſecondarely he ſayth falſe. For the Iewes were fallen into open Idolatrie a thouſand tymes worſe thē the Iſraelites, euen in their very tēple, as it appeareth by open ſtories and by the Prophetes: ſo that for their open Idolatrie, whiche they would for no The Iewes committed Idolatry.preachyng of the Prophetes amende, their Prieſtes therto reſiſtyng the Prophetes and encoragyng the people in their wickedneſſe, God ſent them captiue out of the land. Yea and the people erred in folowing the Scribes and Phariſeis & the open multitude called Gods Church, at yt cōmyng of Chriſt, as it is to ſee in the Goſpell, contrary vntounto M. Mores deceitfull Poetry. And agayn, God reſerued hym a litle flocke euer in Iſraell and had euer Prophets God euer reſerueth a litle flocke.there, ſome time openly and ſome time in perſecution, that eueryevery man muſt hide hym ſelfe and keepe hys fayth ſecret: and euen in the houſes of the euill kynges both of Iewry and alſo of Iſraell he had good people, and that among the hyghe officers, but ſecretly, as Nicodemus among the Phariſeis. So that the very Churche was eueryevery where ofttymes in captiuitie and perſecution vnderunder their brethren, as we bee vnderunder ours in the kyngdome of the Pope.
Then he putteth no ieopardy to worſhpp an vnconſecrated hoſte. But with More feareth not to worſhip an vncōſecrated hoſ…e.what worſhyp men ſhould woorſhyp the conſecrated doth he not teach, neither the vſe of that Sacrament or any other, nor how ought may be worſhipped but teacheth onelyonly that all thynges may be worſhypped, and ſheweth not the right worſhyp from the falſe.
Then he noteth Paul. 1. Cor. 1. how he exhorteth vsus to agree onelyonly, but not 1. Cor. 1.on the truth or on the good, but onelyonly to agree a great multitude together. O this We muſt firſt know the true way & then agree in the ſame.deepe blindneſſe. Dyd not Paule firſt teach them the true way? And did hee not inſtruct them a new in the true way and in the ſaid Epiſtle rebuke the falſe confidence that they had in men, the cauſe of all their diſſention and all errours that were among them?
Then he ſayth, the Iewes had Saintes in honour, as the Patriarkes and Prophetes. We teach to diſhonour none: But the Iewes prayed to none.
More. Chriſt rebuked not the Phariſeis for garniſhyng the ſepulchres of the Prophetes but for that they folowed the cōditions of thē that ſlew them. Tyndale. Chriſt rebuked the falſe truſt the Iewes had in their wil works.Yes and for their falſe truſt in ſuche woorkes as we do you. And ye Syr thinke that ye deſerue heauen in worſhyppyng the Saintes bones, and be as ready to ſlea them that beleue, teach and lyue as the Saintes dyd, as your fathers were to ſlea thē: beſides that ye worſhyp Saintes that folowed Chriſt after the example of your holy Cardinall, of whom I doubt not but that ye will make a God in proceſſe of tyme alſo.
Then repeateth he for forgettyng, how Eliſeus bones raiſed vp a dead body That was to confirme his preachyng onelyonly. For the Iſraelites, as wicked as they were, neither prayed to hym, The myracles done by the prophetes and Apoſtles. was to cō firme their doctrine.neither kiſſed his bones, nor offered nor ſticked vppe candels before hym. Whiche thyng if they had done in the kyngdōe of y• Iewes, I doubt not but that ſome good kyng wold hauehave burnt his bones to aſhes, as wel as the braſen Serpent, that was as great a relique as dead bones. And Chriſt ſhewed miracles at the findyng of the croſſe. That was to ſtabliſh the faith of Chriſtes death and that it ſhould be a memory of his death, & not that we ſhuld truſt in the wood as we do. For which falſe abuſe, yt whole land where Chriſt dyd his miracles, is deſtroyed.
Then he alledgeth the woman that was healed, through touching of Chriſtes Chriſt made the woman whole and not hys coate.coate, becauſe we ſhould worſhyppe it. When Chriſt ſayd her fayth hath made her whole, not in the coate, but in Chriſt.
And the miracle was ſhewed, to prouoke to the worſhyppyng of the preachyng and not of the coate. Though to kepe the coate reuerently in the memoriall of the deede, to prouoke vntounto the fayth of Chriſt were not euill of it ſelfe. Miracles were done for the confirmation of doctrine.And Paule by your doctrine, ſent hys napkin to heale yt ſicke, that mē ſhould ſhrine his ſneueled napkin, and not to beleue his preachyng.
The x. Chapter.
THe x. chapter of Saint Walary is meete for the auctor, and his worſhipfull doctrine.A filthy chapter.
The xi. Chapter.
IN the xi. he iuggleth wyth thys miſticall terme Latria. I anſwere God is no vayne name, but ſignifieth one that is almighty, all mercifull, all true Latri….and good, which he that beleueth will goe to God, to hys promiſes and Teſtament, and not follow his owne imaginations, as M. Mores doctrine teacheth.
He ſayth, that bodely ſeruice is not Latria. No but bodely ſeruice done & referred vntounto hym▪ which is a ſpirite, is Idololatria.
He truſteth, that men know the Image from the Saint. I aſke M. More why God did hide Moſes body & diuers Moſes.other. The Iewes would hauehave knowen yt Moſes had not bene God, Moſes▪ bones.and that Moſes bones had not bene Moſes. And they knew that the braſē ſerpent was not God, and that yt golden The braſen Serpent.calues were not God, & that wod and ſtone were not God. But Syr there is euer a falſe imagination by. The world becauſe they can not worſhip God in the ſpirite, to repent of euill and to louelove the lawe, and to beleue that he wyll helpe at al neede, therfore runne they vntounto their owne imaginations, and thinke that God for ſuch ſeruice as they do to Images, will fulfill their worldly deſires: for godly cā they nought deſire. Now God is a ſpirite and wilbe worſhipped in hys woorde God is a ſpirite and wilbe worſhipped ſpiritually.onelyonly which is ſpirituall, and wil hauehave no bodely ſeruice. And the ceremonies of the olde law he ſet vp, to ſignifie his word onelyonly, and to keepe the people in mynde of hys teſtament. So that he which obſerueth any ceremony of any other purpoſe is an Idolater, that is, an Image ſeruer.
And when he ſayth, if men aſke women whether it were our Lady of Walſingam or Ipſwich that was ſaluted of Gabriel, or that ſtoode by Chriſt when he hung on the croſſe, they wyll ſay neyther nother. Then I aſke hym what meaneth it that they ſay, our Lady of Walſingam pray for me, our Lady of Ipſwich The Idolatrou… perſō worſhippeth the Image for yt Saint.pray for me, our Lady of Wilſdō pray for me, in ſo much y• ſome which recken thēſelues no ſmall fooles, make them roules of halfe an houre long, to pray after that maner. And they that ſo pray, thou mayſt …e ſure, meane our Lady that ſtoode by the croſſe, and her that was ſaluted therto.
Then he rehearſeth many abuſes, and how that womē ſing ſonges of ribaudry Proceſſion…, though they be abuſed may not be put downe.in proceſſions in cathedral churches, vntounto which abhominatiōs yet our holy church that cānot erre, cōſent wyth full delectatiō. For on the one ſide they will not amende the abuſe. And on the other ſide they hauehave hyred M. More to proue with his ſophiſtry that ye things ought not to be put downe.
Then he bringeth in how the wilde Wilde Iriſhe. Welch mē.Iriſh and the Welch pray, when they go to ſteale. And aſketh whether, becauſe they abuſe prayer, we ſhould put all praying downe. Nay M. More, it is not like. Many thinges are altered for the abuſes ſake.Prayer is Gods commaundement, & where fayth is, there muſt prayer needes be & cannot be away. How be it, thynges that are but mens traditions and all indifferent thynges which we may be as well without as wyth, may well be put downe for their diſhonouring of God, thorow y• abuſe. We hauehave turned kiſſing in the Church into the Pax. We hauehave put downe watching all night in the church on ſaintes eues, for the abuſe. And Ezechias brake the Ezech…as.braſen ſerpēt 4. King. 18. for the abuſe. And euen ſo, ſuch proceſſions and the multitude of ceremonies, and of holydayes to, might as wel be put downe. And the ceremonies that be left would hauehave their ſignifications put to them, and the people ſhould be taught them. And on the Sondayes Gods woorde woulde be truely preached. Which if hys holy church would do, neyther the The true preaching of Gods worde remoueth theft and an other wickednesIriſhe nor yet the Welſhe woulde ſo pray. By which praying and other like blyndneſſe M. More may ſee, that buzſing in Latine on the holy dayes helpeth not the hartes of the people. And I wonder that M. More can laugh at it and not rather weepe for compaſſion, to ſee the ſoules for which Chriſt ſhed hys bloud to periſh. And yet I beleue that your holy Church will not refuſe at Eaſter to receaue y• tithes of all that ſuch blynde people robbe, as well as they diſpence wyth all falſe gottē good that is brought them, and wyll lay the enſample of Abraham and Melchiſedeck for them.
The xii. Chapter.
IN the xij. he alleageth that S. Hierome and Auguſtine prayed to Saints, and concludeth, that if any ſecte be one better then an other they be the beſt. I anſwere, though he coulde proue that they prayed to Saintes, yet coulde he not proue hymſelfe thereby of the beſt ſect nor that it were good therefore to pray to Saints. For firſt the Apoſtles, Patriarkes and Prophetes were ſure to be folowed, which prayed to none. ☞And agayne, a good man might erre in many thynges and not be damned, ſo that hys errour were not directly agayuſt A good mā may erre & yet not be dampned.the promiſes that are in Chriſtes bloud, neyther that he held them maliciouſly. As if I beleued that the ſoules were in heauē immediatly, and that they prayed for vsus, as we do one for an other, and did beleue that they heard al that we ſpake or thought, and vppon that prayed to ſome Saint, to pray for me, to put hym in remēbrance onelyonly, as I pray my neighbour, and without other truſt or confidence, and though all be falſe, yet ſhould I not be damned ſo lōg as I had no obſtinacie therein, for the fayth that I hauehave in Chriſtes bloud ſhould ſwalow vp that errour, till I were better taught, but M. More ſhould hauehave alleaged the places where they prayed vntounto ſaintes.
And then he alleageth agaynſt hym ſelfe, that the miracles were wrought by God, to confirme hys doctrine and to teſtifie that the preacher there was a true meſſenger. But the myracles that confirme praying to Saintes, do not confirme. Th… myracles of Saintes confirme mans imaginations.Gods doctrine. But mans imaginations. For there was neuer man yet that came forth and ſayd, loe, the ſ…ul…s of the Saintes that be dead be in heauen in ioy with Chriſt, and God wyll that ye pray vntounto them. In token whereof I do this or that miracle.
And when he triumpheth a little after, as though all were wonne ſaying, if our olde holy doctours were falſe and their doctrine vntrue and their miracles fayned, let them come forth and do miracles themſelues and proue ours fayned. Syr, ye hauehave no doctours that did myracles to ſtabliſhe your worſhippyng There were no doctours neither Apoſtles that did myracles to eſtabliſhe the worſhipping of …amages.of Images and ſo forth. Your doctrine is but the opinion of faythleſſe people, which to cōfirme yt deuil hath wrought much ſubtiltie. And as for the myracles done at Saints graues and at the preſence of reliques, as long as true myracles endured, and vntill the ſcripture was antentickly receaued, were done to confirme the preaching yt ſuch Saints had preached while they were aliue. And therto the myracles which Witches do, we confound not wyth other myracles, but wyth ſcripture we Witches.proue them not of God, but of the deuill, to ſtabliſhe a falſe fayth, & to leade from God, as your doctrine doth. And likewiſe where we can confound your where true doctrine is ſet forth▪ there needeth no myracle.falſe doctrine with autēticke & manifeſt ſcripture, there neede we to do no myracle. We bryng Gods teſtament cōfirmed wyth myracles for all that we do, & ye ought to require no more of vsus.
And in like maner do ye firſt geue ☜vsus autenticke ſcripture for your doctrine. If ye hauehave no ſcripture, come Let y• Papiſtes for lacke of ſcriptures come torch and do miracles.forth and preach your doctrine, and cō firme it wyth a myracle. And then if we bring not autenticke ſcripture agaynſt you or confounde your myracle wyth a greater, as Moſes dyd the ſorcerers of Egipt, we wyll beleue you.
And when he ſpeaketh of tryall of Gods wor… to y• touchſtone to tri… myracles.myracles, what do ye to trie your myracles, whether they be true or fayned. And beſides that, Gods worde which ſhould be the triall ye refuſe and do all that ye can to falſifie it.
And when he ſpeaketh of ſectes of heretickes, I anſwere, that they which ye call heretickes, beleue all in one Chriſt, as the ſcripture teacheth, and ye in all ſaue Chriſt. And in your falſe The …ectes in y• popiſts church are almoſt innumerable.doctrine of your owne fayning wythout ſcripture, ye hauehave as many ſundry ſectes as all Monkes and Fryers and ſtudents in diuinitie in all your vniuerſities. For firſt yer ye come to diuinitie, ye be all taught to deny the ſaluation that is in Chriſt. And none of you teacheth an nother ſo much as the articles of your fayth. But follow almoſt eueryevery man a ſundry doctour, & in ye ſcripture hys owue brayne, framyng it euer after the falſe opinions whiche he hath profeſſed yer he come at it.
And when he ſayth that God would ſoone vtter fayned myracles. I anſwere, Mahomets doctrine hath preuailed theſe viij. hundred yearesGod hath had at all times one or another to improue yours wyth Gods woorde. And I aſke whether Mahometes fayned myracles hauehave not preuayled viij. hundred yeares. And your abhominable deedes worſe then the Turkes teſtifie that ye louelove the truth leſſe then they. And vntounto them that The cauſe of falſe miracles.louelove not the truth hath God promyſed by the mouth of Paule 2. Theſſ. 2. to ſend them aboundaunce and ſtrength of falſe myracles, to ſtabliſhe them in lyes and to deceaue them and lead thē out of the way, ſo that they cannot but periſhe for their vnkindneſſe, that they loued not the truth to liue therafter, & to honour God in their members.
And whē he ſaith, the heretickes hauehave Where the Scripture is, there nedeth no miracles.no miracles. I anſwer, they nede not, ſo long as they hauehave autentickeſcripture.
And when he ſayth, God ſheweth no myracles for the doctoures of the heretickes. No more he nedeth not, for all they preach is the ſcripture confirmed wyth myracles, and receaued many hundred yeares agoe. And therefore God nedeth not to ſhew myracles for The preachers of the worde of God nede no miracles.them whyle they liue to ſtrength their preaching. And to ſhew myracles for them when they be dead, to moue the people to pray to them and to put their truſt in them as ye do in yours, were to make them Idoles & not Saintes.
And when he ſpeaketh of myracles done in their churches in tyme of perſecution. I anſwere, thoſe were not the miracles of your Churche but of them that beleued the Scripture and ſuffered for it, as yt heretickes do now. For ye had neuer perſecution for your falſe Falſe docctrine was neuer perſecuted.doctrine, which ye hauehave brought in beſides the Scripture, nor any that dyed for it: But ye perſecute and …lea, whoſ… euer with Gods woorde doth rebuke it. And as for your owne miracles of which ye make your boaſt, ye hauehave fayned them ſo groſly throughout al your The Papiſtes are aſhamed of their Legēd of lyes.Legendes of Saintes, that ye be now aſhamed of them and would fayne bee rid of thē if ye wiſt how with honeſtie, and ſo would ye of a thouſand thinges which ye hauehave fayned. And the cauſe why heretickes fayne no miracles as ye doe, is that they walke purely and entend no falſehead.
And why the deuill doth none for them, is that they cleaue faſt to Gods word whiche the deuill hateth and can do no miracles to further it, But to hinder it, as he doth with you. Read the The deuill hath holpē Popes to their dignities.ſtories of your Popes and Cardinals, & ſee whether the deuill hath not holpe them vntounto their highe dignities. And looke whether your holy Byſhoppes come any otherwiſe vntounto their promotions, then by ſeruing the deuil, in ſetting all Chriſtendome at variaunce, in ſheddyng bloud, in bringyng the common wealth to tyrāny and in teaching Chriſten Princes to …ule more cruelly then did euer any heathen, cōtrary vntounto the doctrine of Chriſt.
And as for the Turkes and Saraſenes that ye ſpeake of, I aūſwere that they were Chriſtē once, at the leſt way for the moſt part. And becauſe they had no louelove vntounto the truth to liue their after The cauſe why the Turkes & Iewes ca… not come to to the truthas ye hauehave not, God did ſend them falſe miracles to cary them out of the right waye as ye be. And as for the Iewes, why they hyde out, is onelyonly becauſe they hauehave ſet vp their own righteouſneſſe, as ye hauehave, and therfore can not admit the righteouſneſſe that is in Chriſtes bloud, as ye can not, and as ye hauehave forſworne it.
And when he ſayth, in that they hauehave miracles and the heretickes none, it is a Popiſh doctrine nedeth miracles but Chriſtes doctrine nedeth not now of miracles, for it was confirmed by Chriſt with myracles.ſure ſigne that they be the true Churche and the heretickes not. Had ye Gods word with your miracles and the heretickes doctrine were without, then it were true. But now becauſe ye hauehave miracles without Gods word, to confirme your falſe imaginatiōs, and they whiche ye call heretickes hauehave Gods word cōfirmed with miracles, fiue hū dred yeares together, it is a ſure ſigne that they be the true church & ye not, in as much alſo as Chriſt ſaith, that y• deceauers ſhall come with miracles: ye & in his name therto, as ye do. For whē chriſt ſaith there ſhal come in my name yt ſhal ſay he him ſelfe is Chriſt, who is Math. 24.that ſaue your Pope, that wilbe Chriſtes Ʋicare and yet maketh men to beleue The Pope commeth … Chriſtes name with falſe miracles.in him ſelfe, in his Bulles & Calues ſkinnes and in what ſoeuer he liſteth. And who be thoſe falſe annoynted that ſhall come with miracles to deceaue the elect if it were poſſible, ſaue your Pope with his greſiamus?
And when he repeteth his miracles, to proue that the olde holy Doctours were good men in the right belefe. I aunſwere agayne, that the Doctours which planted Gods word watered it with miracles, while they were alyue, And whē they were dead God ſhewed The preachers of gods word confirmed the ſame with miracles whyle they were alyue.miracles at their graues, to confirme the ſame, as of Heliſeus. And that continued till the Scripture was full receaued and autenticke. But ye can not ſhew, nor ſhal any Doctour which beyng aliue preached your falſe doctrine confirmyng it with miracles, as God doth his Scripture.
Then ſayth hee, God had in the olde Teſtamēt good mē ful of miracles, whoſe liuing a man might be bold to folow, and whoſe, doctrine a man might beleue by reaſon of theyr miracles, and then iuggleth God ſuffe…eth ſuch as hauehave no louelove to hys truth, to be deceaued with lying miracles.ſaying: if God ſhould not ſo now in the new Teſtamēt hauehave Doctours with miracles to confirme their doctrine and liuynges, but contrarywiſe ſhould bryng to paſſe or ſuffer to bee brought to paſſe with falſe miracles, that his church ſhuld take hypocrites for Saintes, which expoſided the Scripture falſly, then ſhould hee deceaue his Church and not hauehave his ſpirite preſent in his Church, to teach them all truth, as he promiſed them. I aunſwer, God ſuffereth not his Church Why the Pope tell.to be deceaued: But he ſuffereth the popes Church: becauſe they hauehave no louelove vntounto the truth to lyue after the lawes of God, but conſent vntounto all iniquitie, as he ſuffered the Churche of Mahomet. Moreouer y• gift of miracles was not all way amōg the preachers in the old Teſtament. For Iohn Baptiſt did In the Popiſh church all miracles are wrought by dead Saintes.no miracle at all. The miracles were ceaſed longyer Chriſt. And as for you in the Popes kingdome had neuer mā that either confirmed Gods doctrine, or your owne with miracles. All your Saintes be firſt Saints when they be dead and then do firſt miracles, to confirme tithes and offeringes & the Poetrie which ye hauehave fayned, and not true doctrine. For to confirme what preachyng S. Thomas of Cā terbury.doth S. Thomas of Canterbury miracles? He preached neuer nor liued any other life then as our Cardinall, and for his miſchief dyed a miſchieuous death. And of our Cardinall, if we be not diligent, they will make a Saint alſo and make a greater relique of his ſhew then of the others.Thomas de Aquino
And of your dead Saintes let vsus take on… for an example. Thomas de Aquino is a Saint full of miracles, as Friers tell. And his doctrine was, that our Lady was borne in original ſinne. Dunce.And Dunce doyng no miracle at all, becauſe I ſuppoſe no man wotteth where he lyeth, improueth that with his ſophiſtrie and affirmeth the contrary. And of the contrary hath the Pope, for the deuotiō of that the gray Friers gaue him, ye may well thinke, made an Article of the fayth.☜
And finally as for the miracles, they are to make a man aſtonied & to wonder Miracles.and to draw him to heare the word earneſtly, rather then to write it in his hart. For whoſoeuer hath no other felyng of the law of God that it is good, then becauſe of miracles, the ſa…e ſhall beleue in Chriſt, as did Symon Magus and Iudas: and as they that came out of Egypt with Moyſes, and fell away Our fayth may not be grounded onelyonly vponupon miracles, but vponupon the worde of God.at eueryevery temptation, & ſhall hauehave good workes like vntounto our Popes, biſhops and Cardinals. And therfore when the Scripture is fully receaued, there is no nede of miracles. In ſo much that they which will not beleue Moſes and the Prophetes when the Scripture is receaued, the ſame wilbe no true beleuers by the reaſon of miracles, though one aroſe from death to lyfe to preach vntounto them by the teſtimonie of Chriſt.
And agayne, how doth S. Hierome, Auguſtine, Bede and many other old Doctours that were before the Pope was cropt vp into ye conſciences of mē and had ſent forth his dānable ſectes, to preach him vnderunder yt name of Chriſt, as Chriſt propheſied it ſhould be, expounde this text, thou art Peter and vppon this rocke I will builde my Math. 1….Church, and this text, Peter feede my Iohn. 21.ſheepe, and all power is geuen me in heauen and in earth, and innumerable ſuch textes cleane contrary vntounto all thoſe new old holy doctours that hauehave made the Pope a God? They knew of no power that man ſhould hauehave in the kyngdome of Chriſt, but to preache Chriſt truly. They knew of no power The Apoſtles of Chriſte knew no ſuch authoritie as the Pope now vſurpeth.that the Pope ſhoulde hauehave to ſend to Purgatory or to deliuer thence, neither of any Pardons nor of any ſuch confeſſion as they preach and teach, neither were many that are articles with you, Articles of their faith. They all preached forgeueneſſe of ſinnes thorough repentaunce toward the law and fayth in our Sauiour Chriſt, as all the Scripture playnly doth and can no otherwiſe be taken, and as all the hartes of as many as louelove the law of God, do fele, as ſurely as the finger feeleth the fyre hoate.