Whole Works, Answers · More

Whole Works · Answers · More

p. 32The ſecond booke which is an aunwere vntounto Syr Thomas More.

MAiſter More begynneth M. More begynneth pitifully.with the ſely ſoules of Purgatory and maketh them to wayle and lamēt, that they heare the world waxe ſo faynte in the fayth of Chriſt that any mā ſhould neede now to proue Purgatory to Chriſtē mē, or that any mā could be found which would in ſo great a thyng ſo fully and faſtly beleued for an vndoubted article this. xv. hundred yeare, begyn now to ſtaggar and ſtand in doubt. &c.

Verely me thinketh it a foule faute Frith.ſo ſore to ſtomble euen at the firſt. It were a great blot for him, if he ſhould be compelled by good authoritie to cut of. iiij. hundred of his foreſayd nūber. Now if we can not onelyonly proue that Purgatory in 400. yeare after Chriſt was neither beleued as an article of y^t fayth nor yet for an vndoubted truth.he muſt cut of that iiij. hundred yeare, but alſo bryng witneſſe that it was neither at that time beleued for an article of y^t fayth nor yet for an vndoubted truth: thē I thinke ye would ſuppoſe this man ſomewhat out of the way. And that will I proue by Gods grace. S. Auſten was foure hundred yere after Chriſt. And yet in his time was it not fully and faſtly beleued for an article of the fayth, no nor yet fully and faſtly beleued to bee true. For hee him ſelfe writeth in his Enchiridion on this maner ſpeakyng of Purgatory. p. 33After he expounded the place of Paul. 1. Cor. 3. and had taken this 1. Cor. 3.1 Cor 3word fire not for Purgatory, but for temptation and tribulation, he added theſe wordes in the. 69. chapter. It is not incredible that ſuch a thyng ſhuld alſo chaūce after this life, & whether it be ſo or not it may be queſtioned &c. Of theſe woordes may we well perceaue S. Auſten doubted of Purgatorythat he counted it not for an article of y^t fayth, neither yet for an vndoubted truth for if it had bene an article of y^e faith, or an vndoubted truth then would hee not hauehave ſayd, Poteſt etiā queri, that is to ſay: it may be queſtioned, doubted or moued: for thoſe holy fathers vſed not to make queſtions & doubtes in articles of the fayth among thē ſelues, neither yet in ſuch things as were vndoubted true: they Roma. 4.vſed not to diſpute whether Chriſte dyed for our ſinnes & roſe agayne for our iuſtificatiō, but onelyonly beleued it.

Beſide: that the occaſion why hée wrote the booke entitled Enchiridion was this. There was one Laurētius a Chriſtē man, which inſtantly required of S. Auſten that he would write him a forme of his belefe whiche hée might continually beare in hand and whereunto he ſhould ſticke. Ʋpō this wrote him S. Auſten this litle booke, where in he commaundeth hym not fully and faſtly to beleue (theſe are M. Mores wordes) that there was a Purgatory: but ſayth that it may be queſtioned, doubted or moued whether there be ſuch a place or not. Of this hauehave we playne euidence that it was none article of y^t fayth in S. Auſtens M. More much deceaued in the accomptyng of hystyme (which was foure hūdred yeare after Chriſt) neither yet vndoubted truth. And ſo may all men ſée that M. More is ſore deceaued and ſet on the ſand euen at the firſt brunte and in the begynnyng of his viage.

His ſecond reaſon that he hath to M. More.proue Purgatory is this. The very miſcreauntes & Idolaters, Turkes, Saracenes and Paynimes hauehave euer for the moſt part thought and beleued M. Mores ſecond reaſon.that after the bodyes are deceaſed: the ſoules of ſuch as were neither deadly dampned wretches for euer, nor on the other ſide, ſo good but that their offences done in this world hauehave deſerued more puniſhment then they had ſuffered and ſuſtained there, were purged and puniſhed by payne after the death, ere euer they were admitted vntounto their wealth and reſt. And ſo muſt there nedes be a Purgatory.

I aūſwere, if it were lawfull to require Frith.wiſedome in a man ſo wiſe as M. More is counted, here would I wiſh him a litle more wit, for I thinke M. More maketh a falſe and fond argument.there is no wiſeman that will graunt this to be a good argumēt, y^t Turkes, Saracenes, Paynimes & Iewes beleue it to be true, Ergo, we muſt beleue that it is true: for I will ſhewe you a like argument. The Turkes, Saracenes, Paynimes & Iewes beleue that we hauehave not y^t right Chriſt, but that we are all damned which beleue in Chriſt. Is it therfore true? ſhal we turne our fayth becauſe they beleue that we be deceaued? I thinke there is no man ſo fooliſh as to graūt him this. But if M. More will hauehave his reaſō hold, he muſt argue on this maner: The miſcreauntes and infidels Iohn Frith amē deth M. Mores argument.before named beleue that there is a Purgatory & their belefe is true, therfore we muſt beleue that there is a Purgatory. Now foloweth this argument ſomewhat more formally. Here might I put him to the profe of his Minor: which is, that their belefe (in beleuyng Purgatory) is true: which thyng he ſhall neuer be able to proue. But I hauehave ſuch confidence of the truth on my ſide that I will take vponupon me to proue the negatiue, Cut̄ that their belefe is not true as cōcernyng Purgatory. For theſe miſcreauntes Iohn Frith proueth the negatiue to be true.which beleue Purgatory, beleue that there is a Purgatory for vsus that be Chriſten: for they beleue that we are fallē from all truth and vtterly dāned. But they thinke that there is a Purgatory for them ſelues wherin they ſhalbe purged & puniſhed vntill they hauehave made full ſatiſfactiō for their ſinnes committed: but that is falſe, for neither Turkes, Saracenes Paynimes nor Iewes whiche beleue not in Chriſt hauehave or euer ſhall enter into any Purgatory, but they are all p. 34dāned wretches becauſe they beleue not in Ieſu Chriſt. Iohn. 3. Now ſith Iohn. 3.John 3they be deceaued, for they hauehave no Purgatory, but are all damned as many as beleue not. Alas what blindnes is that to argue that we muſt folow them which are both blynd and out of the right way?

After this diſputeth he by naturall Raſtell had his argumentes frō M. More.reaſon that there muſt be a Purgatory, his diſputation continueth a leafe and an halfe, out of the which Raſtell tooke all his booke. And ſo are all his apparent reaſons diſcloſed before agaynſt Raſtell. Then begynneth he with the Scripture, on this maner.

IT ſemeth very probable and likely M. More.that the good kyng Ezechias Ezechias.for no other cauſe wept at the warning of his death geuen him by the Prophet, but onelyonly for the feare of Purgatory.

The ſtory is written. 4. Kinges. 2. Frith. 4. Kinges. 2 Eſay. 38.Isa 38And Eſay. 38. Exechias was ſicke vntounto the death. And Eſay the Prophete and ſonne of Amos came vntounto him ſaying, this ſayth the Lord, diſpoſe thy houſe for thou ſhalt dye and not liue. He turned his face vntounto the wall and prayed the Lord ſaying, I beſeche thée Lord, remember I pray thée, how I hauehave walked before thée in truth and in a perfite hart & hauehave done that thyng which is pleaſaunt & acceptable before thée. Then Ezechias wept with great cryeng: theſe are the wordes of the text. We cā not perceaue by the text that he was a great ſinner, but rather the contrary, for he ſayth that hee had walked before the Lorde in truth and in a perfite hart, & hath done that thyng which is pleaſaunt and acceptable before the Lord. And therfore it is nothyng lyke that hee ſhould feare Purgatory neither yet hell. Thou wilt peraduēture aſke me, if he wept not for feare of Purgatory, why did he then wepe? I will alſo aſke you a queſtion, and then will A queſtion to Maſter More.I ſhew you my minde. Chriſt dyd not onelyonly wepe, but feared ſo ſore that he ſweat like droppes of bloud runnyng downe vppon the earth, whiche was more then to wepe. Now if I ſhould aſke you why Chriſt feared & ſweate ſo ſore: what would you aūſwere me? A very apt ſimilitude.that it was for feare of the paynes of Purgatory? forſooth he that would ſo aunſwere ſhould be laughed to ſcorne of all the world, as he were well worthy. Wherfore was it then? Ʋerely euen for feare of death, as it playnly appeareth after: for he prayed vntounto his Father, ſaying: my father if it be poſſible let this death paſſe fro me. Math. xxvj. So fearefull a thyng is Math. 26.Matt 26death euen vntounto the moſt pureſt fleſh. And euen the ſame cauſe will I aſſigne in Ezechias, that he wept for feare of death and not for Purgatory. Now procedeth he further & promiſeth to proue it by playne euident textes, as it is very needefull for the text that hee alledged before is ſomewhat to farre wreſted and yet will it not ſerue him.

HaueHave ye not (ſayth he) the wordes M. More.of Scripture written in the booke of the kynges, Dominus deducit ad in feros & reducit: Our Lord bryngeth folke down into hell, and bringeth them thence agayne? But they that bee in that where damned ſoules be, they be neuer deliuered thence againe. Wherfore it appeareth well that they whō God deliuereth and bryngeth thence agayne, be in that part of hell that is Purgatory.

This texte is written in the firſt Frith. 1. Kynges. 2booke of the kynges and in the ſecond chapter, and they are the wordes of Anna which ſayth: The Lord doth kill & quickē againe: he ledeth downe into hell & bryngeth agayne. Here he thinketh to hauehave good hold. But ſurely his hold will fayle hym, for in this one text hee ſheweth him ſelfe twiſe ignoraunt. Firſt becauſe he knoweth M. More here ſemeth to be ignoraunt in the Hebrue toung. Gene. 42.Gen 42not that the Hebrue word, Sheol, doth not ſignifie hell, but a graue or a pitte that is digged. As it is written Gene. 42. Si quid aduerſitatis acciderit ei in terra ad quam pergitis, deducetis canos meos cum dolore ad inferos, that is if any euill chaūce vntounto my ſonne Beniamin in the lād whether you go, you ſhall bryng down myne hoore heares with ſorow vntounto my graue, not vntounto hell nor yet vntounto Purgatory, for he p. 35thought neither to go to hell nor Purgatory for his ſonne, but thought that he ſhould dye for ſorrow if his ſonne had any miſchaunce.

Beſides that he is cleane ignoraūt M. More … of the maner of the ſpeakyng of the Prophetes.of the cōmon maner of all Prophetes which for y^e moſt part in all Pſalmes, Hymnes and other ſonges of prayſe (as this is) make the firſt ende of the verſe to expounde the laſt and the laſt to expounde the firſt. He that obſerueth this rule ſhall vnderſtand very much in the Scripture although hee be ignoraunt in the Hebrue. So doth this place full well expounde it ſelfe without any imagination of Purgatory. Conferre the firſt part of y^e verſe vntounto the laſt and you ſhall eaſely perceaue it. The firſt part of the halfe verſe is this. The Lord doth kill, and The Lord doth kill & rayſe again.that expoūdeth the other halfe of this verſe where ſhe ſayth, hee leadeth downe to hell, ſo that in this place to kill and to leade downe to hell is all one thing. And likewiſe in the ſecond part of the halfe verſe, to quicken agayne and bryng agayne is all one thyng. Now if any man be ſuperſtitious that hée dare not vnderſtand this thyng as figurately ſpoken, then may he verifie it vponupon them that God rayſed from naturall death as he did Lazarus. Iohn. xj. And all beit no man Iohn. 11.John 11can deny but that this ſence is good and that the text may ſo be vnderſtād, yet in my minde we ſhal go more nye vntounto the very and pure truth, if we expounde it thus. The Lord doth kill and quickē agayne, he leadeth downe to hell and bringeth agayne: that is, hee bryngeth men into extreme affliction and miſerie (whiche is ſignified by death and hell) and after turneth not hys face vntounto them and maketh them to folow hym. And to this well agréeth the. 78. Pſalme that ſpeaketh Pſal. 78.Ps 78of the children of Iſrael (which figure his elect Church and congregation.) Theyr yeares paſſed ouer in perpetuall trouble, whē he deſtroyed or killed …hen God ſaith he killeth & doth quicken againe, what the meanyng therof is.them, then they ſought hym, they turned and beſought him buſely. He meaneth not here that he had firſt killed them by temporal death and after their death made them to ſéeke hym: but that he had wrapped them in extreme afflictions and perpetuall troubles, and that he ſore ſcourged them whē they brake his cōmaundements & yet after turned his mercyfull face vntounto hym.

Finally, if you will hauehave the pure vnderſtādyng of this place. Note the wordes of the iij. children Daniell. 3. Daniell. 3.whiche were caſt into the fornace of fire and yet preſerued frō death thorough the mighty hand of God, theyr wordes & ſong was this: Benedicite Anania, Azaria, Miſaell Domino, laudate & ſuperexaltate eum in ſecula: quia eruit nos de inferno, & ſaluos fecit de manu mortis, & liberauit nos de medio ardentis flammae, & de medio ignis eruit nos. That is: blyſſe ye anania, azaria, and miſaell the Lord: prayſe and aduaūce him for euer. For he hath plucked vsus out of hell, & hath ſaued vsus frō the power of death. He hath deliuered A true interpretatiō of Scripture.vsus from the middeſt of the burnyng flāme and hath plucked vsus out frō the middes of the fire. Here may you ſée the ſame maner of ſpeakyng & how the laſt ende expoundeth the begynnyng. Theſe childrē ſay that God hath plucked them out of hell, and yet were they neither dāned nor in Purgatory nor dead. But the next part of this verſe expoundeth their meaning which ſayth: he hath ſaued vsus from the hand of power of death. So may ye know that to bee plucked out of hell, and to be ſaued from the power of death, are all one thyng. And again where they ſay that God hath deliuered them from the burnyng flamme, and that hee hath plucked them from the middes of the fire, is all one ſenſe as eueryevery child may well perceiue: and therfore is M. More to blame to be ſo A foule fault in M. More.buſie ſeyng he vnderſtandeth not the phraſe and manner of ſpeache of the Scripture.

THen bryngeth hee in the Prophet M. More.Zachary which ſayth. Tu quo que in ſanguine Teſtamenti tui eduxiſti vinctos Zacharie.tuos de lacu in quo non erat aqua. Thou haſt in the bloud of thy Teſtament brought out thy bounden priſoners out of the pitte or lake p. 36in which there was no water. Now in hell is there no redemption, and in lymbo patrum the ſoules were in reſt? wherfore it appeareth clerely that thoſe priſoners whiche hee brought out of their payne, hee brought onelyonly out of Purgatory.

This text is ſpoken Zachary. 9. for Frith.a full aunſwere of this text I néeded no more but to bring the authoritie of Zacharie. 9Zech 9my Lord of Rocheſter agaynſt hym. For hee expoundeth the place of the Pſalme. 66. for Purgatory, whiche Pſal. 66.Ps 66ſayth. Tranſiuimus per ignem & aquam & adduxiſti nos in refrigeriū, we hauehave gone thorough fire and water & thou haſt brought vsus into coleneſſe: If this text of the Pſalme ſerue for Purgatory which ſayth that there is both fire and water, as my Lord of Rocheſter doth affirme & bringeth alſo Origine to confirme it, then can not this place of Zacharie ſerue, whiche ſayth that there is no water. And ſo muſt M. More néedes bee ouerſene, for Origene and Rocheſter bee able to wey vp him. Here might I ſay vntounto thē More and Rocheſter can not agree.both that they ſhould firſt agrée with in thē ſelues and then would I ſhape them an aūſwere. Howbeit I know my part ſo ſure that I will confute them both, and proue that neither other place ſpeaketh any thyng of this paynfull Purgatory that the deſcribe. But my Lord of Rocheſters authoritie ſhall be differred vntill the thyrd part whiche ſhalbe a ſeuerall booke agaynſt hym.

This place verely approueth not How the ſauyng of the Prophete Zachary is to be vnderſtand.Purgatory but ſheweth the vertue of Chriſtes redemption which through his bloud redemed his captiues & priſoners that is to ſay them whom hee foūd bound with the ſtrōg bondes of ſinne to euerlaſtyng damnatiō which were ſubiectes vntounto the deuil and the extreme enemyes of God, but why calleth hee them his? verely becauſe they were choſen in Chriſt Ieſu before the begynnynge of the worlde, that they with him and through hym ſhould enioy the euerlaſtyng inheritaunce of heauen. Why are they called bounde and priſoners? Surely becauſe they were captiues, boūde and impriſoned vnderunder the deuill through the ſinne that Adā committed. Roma. Roma. 5.v. why ſayth he that he deliuered thē out of the pitte where in is no water? Forſooth that is euen as much to ſay, as hee deliuered them out of hell and from eternall damnation. Thou wilt An obiectiō and aunſwere therunto.happely ſay, hee deliuered them not out of hell and from eternall damnation, for his priſoners that is to ſay, they y^t ſhalbe ſaued neuer came there. I aunſwere, that they ſhould without doubt hauehave gone thether & hauehave bene dāned perpetually, except that Chriſt by his death had deliuered and loſed them. And therefore ſayth the Scripture that Chriſt deliuereth vsus out of hell, becauſe he ſaueth and deliuereth vsus that we come not there, which els ſhould ſurely enter into it for euer. It is alſo a common maner of ſpeach among vsus, if a man ſhould go to priſon for debt or any ſuch matter, & one of his frendes come in y^t meane ſeaſon which pacified the aduerſaries & payeth that debt, then may we well ſay, that he hath deliuered this man out of priſon although hee came not there, but ſhould hauehave gone thether. And likewiſe when we ſay that ſuch a mā hath deliuered his frend from the galowes, we meane not that he was all ready hanged, for then were the deliueraūce to late but we meane that he deliuered him that hee ſhould not be hanged. Furthermore if a mā might A queſtion to maſter More.bee bold to aſke M. More whether Chriſt hauehave redemed, looſed and deliuered him in the bloud of his Teſtament? I thinke he would aunſwere yea. Now if we ſhould aſke him further, from whence he hath deliuered him? I am ſure he is not ſo ignoraunt as to ſay that Chriſte hath deliuered him from Purgatory, but euen that be hath deliuered him from eternall death and damnation. And ſo hath Chriſte deliuered vsus from the pytte wherin is no water, that is to ſay, frō hell and euerlaſtyng damnation, not y^t we were in hell all ready (although we were bound vnderunder ſinne and ready to be caſt therein, but becauſe we ſhould not enter into hell. This is the pure vnderſtandyng of the texte. p. 37Here might I diſpute w^t him both of A true and plaine expoſition of the prophet Zachary.hell & of Limbus patrum but becauſe I wilbe as ſhort as poſſible is I will deferre y^t vntil an other occaſiō y^t I may reaſon with hym ſomewhat at large.

AN other place is there alſo in M. More.the old Teſtament that putteth Purgatory quyte out of queſtion. For (ſayth he) what is playner then the places whiche in the booke of the Machebees make mention of Machabeus.the deuoute remembraunce, prayour, aſmoſe & ſacrifice to be done for ſoules, when the good and holy mā Iudas Machabeus gathered money among the people to buy ſacrifice withall to be offered vp for the ſoules of them that were dead in the battaile. What ſhift finde they here? Surely a very ſhameleſſe ſhift Sore ſpo… of M. More.and are fayne to take them to that talkyng which is their ſhote anker alway, when they finde the ſtorme ſo great that they ſee their ſhyppe goeth all to wracke. For firſt they vſe to ſet ſome falſe gloſſe vntounto the text, and if that helpe not, then fall they to a ſhameles boldnes, and let not to deny the Scripture and all.

The place whiche hee reciteth is Frith.written. 2. Macha. 12. And to ſay the 2, Mach. 12truth, y^t booke is not of ſufficiēt authoritie to make an article of our fayth: neither is it admitted in the Canō of the Hebrues. Here he obiecteth that the Church hath allowed it, and the holy Doctours, as S. Hierome. S. Auſtine and ſuch other I aunſwere: S. Hieromes mynde is opened vntounto vsus by the Epiſtle which he wrote before y^t Prouerbes of Salomō, his wordes are theſe. Sicut Iudith & Tobie Machabeorum libros, legit quidem cos eccleſia, ſed inter canonicas Scripturas non recipit, ſic & haec duo volumina legat ad aedificationem plebis, non ad authoritatem eccleſiaſticorum dogmatum confirmandum. That is lyke as the Church The bokes of the Machabees are not in the Canon of y^t Hebrues.doth read the bookes of Iudith, Tobias, & the Machabées, but receaueth them not amōg the canonicall Scriptures, euen ſo let it read theſe twoo bookes (he meaneth the booke of Sapience and Eccleſiaſticus) vntounto the edifieng of the people, and not to confirme the doctrine of the Church therby. And it is nothyng lyke that S. Auſten ſhould diſſent from S. Hierome, for they were both in one tyme, yea & S. Hierome out lyued S. Auſten. And therfore the Church could not admit any ſuch bookes either before S. Auſtens tyme or in his tyme, but that S. Hierome ſhould hauehave knowne of it. And ſo may you gather that if S. Auſten allow theſe bookes, or els ſay that the Churche hath allowed them, you may not vnderſtād that they hauehave allowed and receaued them as canonicall Scriptures, for then you make S. Hierome a lyar. But thus you muſt vnderſtād it, that they hauehave receaued them to be read for the edifying of y^e people, and not to confirme the doctrine of the Church or articles of the fayth thereby, according to S. Hieromes expoſitiō. Now may you ſée that our ſhote anker (as he called it) is ſo ſtrōg that all his ſtormes and waues can not once moue it, for we deny not but that the booke is receaued of the church to be read, and we ſhew by S. Hierome for what entent it is receaued and read, not to proue any article of our faith therby, but onelyonly to order our maner of liuyng therafter in ſuch poyntes as are not repugnaunt vntounto the canonicall Scripture.

But yet for this once, to do the mā pleaſure we will let ſlyppe our ſhote anker & take the ſeas with him. And for all their furious wyndes and frothy ….waues, we wil neuer ſtrike ſayle, ſo ſtrong is our ſhyp and ſo well ballaunced. Be it in caſe that this booke of the Machabées were of as good authority as Eſay: yet can he not proue this fury and paynefull Purgatorye therby. For it ſpeaketh not one word neither of fire nor payne, but it ſpeaketh of a ſacrifice offred for the dead, y^t they might be loſed frō their ſinnes becauſe there is a reſurrectiō of y^t ded. which may wel be without any paine or fire. So that this concluſion is very The meaning & true expoſition of the Machabees touching purgatory.bare and naked? It is good to offer ſacrifice for the dead that they may be looſed from their ſinnes, Ergo, there is a ſenſible fire which doth puniſhe the holy and choſen people of God. I am p. 38ſure there is no child, but he may perceaue that this argument is naught.

Beſides that is to bee doubted ….whether Iudas did wel or not in offering this ſacrifice. And therfore ought we not of a fooliſh preſumption to ſolow his facte vntill we knowe how it was accepted. Peraduenture thou wilt ſay that the déede is commended in the ſayd text, where it ſayth: But becauſe he conſidered that they which with godlynes had entred their ſléepe (that is their death) had good fauour layd vp in ſtore for them, therefore is the remēbraunce to pray for the dead holy & wholeſome, that they may be looſed from their ſinnes. I aunſwere, that the perſons whiche were ſlayne in the battayl for whom this prayer & ſacrifice was made, were founde to hauehave vnderunder their clokes oblations of idols which were at Iamniam, & for The ſlaughter of the Iewes was is for idolatry.that cauſe were they ſlayne as it is playne in the text, yea and all the hoſt prayſed the right iudgement of God. Now theſe men that were ſo ſlayne were damned by the law. Deut. vij. whiche ſayth. The images of their Deutro. 7.Gods thou ſhalt burne with fire, & ſée that thou couet not the ſiluer or gold y^t is on them nor take it vntounto thée leſt Iudas Machabeus was deceaued in hys ſacrifice.thou be ſnared therewith, for it is an abomination vntounto the Lord thy God. Bryng not therfore the abomination vntounto thine houſe leſt thou be a dāned thing as it is: But vtterly defie it and abhorre it for it is a thyng that muſt be deſtroyed. Of this may we euidētly perceaue, that albeit Iudas dyd this thyng of a good mynde, yet was he deceaued, for his ſacrifice could nothyng helpe them ſith they were damned by the law, and entred not their ſlepe with godlyneſſe as he ſuppoſed.

Furthermore it is euident that the ….Iewes had ſacrifices for the ſinnes of them that liued. Leuit. 4. 5. 6. &c. But how knew they that theſe ſacrifices would extende them ſelues vntounto the ſinnes of the dead? And they were cō maunded vnderunder the payne of curſing that they ſhould adde nothyng vntounto the word of God. Deut. 12. Ʋerely it Deut. 12.Deut 12is lyke that the Prieſtes euen at that tyme ſought their owne profite, abuſed the ſacrifices, & deceaued the ſimple people.

M. More alſo ſayth, that the money 4was ſēt to buy ſacrifices which ſhoulde be offered for the ſinne of the ſlayne. Now knoweth eueryevery Chriſten that all maner of ſacrifices & offeryngs were nothyng but figures of Chriſt which ſhould be offered for the ſinne of his people. So that when By Chriſtes death all ſacrifices ceaſed.Chriſt came, all ſacrifices & oblations ceaſed. If thou ſhouldeſt now offer a calfe to purge thy ſinne, thou were no doubt iniurious vntounto the bloud of Chriſt, for if thou thought his bloud ſufficiēt, then wouldeſt thou not ſéeke an other ſacrifice for thy ſinne.

Yea I will go further with you 5there was not one ſacrifice in the old Teſtamēt that purged or tooke away ſinne. For the bloud of oxē or goates can not take away ſinne. Heb. x. But Heb. ….all the ſacrifices which were thē offered, did but ſignifie that Chriſt ſhould come and be made a ſacrifice for vsus, which ſhuld purge our ſinne for euer. Now were their ſacrifices and oblations inſtitute of God and yet could they not take away ſinne: but onelyonly No ſacrifice cā take away ſinne but onelyonly the ſacrifice made by Chriſt.ſignified that Chriſt through his bl…d ſhould take it away. What madnes then is come into our braynes that we thinke that our oblations whiche are ordained but of our owne imagination ſhould take away ſinne?

What if Iudas gathered ſuch an 6offeryng in the old Teſtamēt, ſhould it then folow that we muſt doe ſo to, which know that Chriſt is come and that all oblations are ceaſed in hym? ſhall we become Iewes and go backe agayne to the ſhadow and ceremonie ſith we hauehave the body and ſignificatiō The holieſt men hauehave fallen.whiche is Chriſt Ieſue? Be it that Iudas were a holy man, might he not do yet amiſſe? Be it in caſe that he dyd well, ſhall we therfore ſtraight wayes out of his worke ground an article of our fayth? Dauid was an holy man & yet committed he both murther and aduoutry ſhal we without further enſearchyng the Scriptures ſtreightwayes folow his example? Abraham was an holy man and was commaū ded of God to offer his owne ſonne: p. 39ſhall we offer our children therfore? Gedſon and Ioſue deſtroyed the vnfaythfull Kyngs and Princes and did well and were prayſed of God. Muſt we do ſo to? And wherfore ſhall we The example of Iudas Machabeus is profitable to y^e church, and therfore it muſt be folowed.more felow the example of Iudas thē of the other? Shall I tell you why? Ʋerelye for this example of Iudas bringeth money vntounto our ſpiritualty. Theſe xij. thouſād drachmas ſhyne ſo bright in their eyes, y^t without other cādle lanterne or ſpectacles they hauehave eſpyed an article of our fayth: you may not conſider that they hauehave taken this text of. xij. thouſand drachmes for an Epiſtle in ſoule maſſes, for then peraduēture you might fall into ſome ſhrewed ſuſpection, that they ſhould do it of couetouſnes, which faulte can not be eſpyed in our ſpiritualtie, as you know well inough.

He that holdeth any ceremony of 7.the law as neceſſary, is boūd to kéepe and fulfill the whole law. This is euident of Paul. Gal. 6. where he ſayth, Gallat 6.If ye be circumciſed, then are ye debtours to fulfill the whole law. That is if ye put any confidence in circumciſion or recounte it as neceſſary (for els it is of it ſelfe, neither good nor euil) then make you your ſelues boūde vnderunder the law which burthen neither we nor our fathers could beare, and tempt God. Act. xv. And this ſacrifice Actes. 15.Acts 15of Iudas was but a ceremony & ſignified y^t Chriſt ſhould with his bloud Raſtell.quench our ſinnes. Ergo, he that keepeth or coūteth this ceremony as neceſſary (as are all the articles of the fayth) doth captiue him ſelf vnderunder the law and tempteth God to ſpeake no more ſharpely.

Yet will I go a litle nere vntounto you. 8.Iudas hym ſelfe beleued not y^t there was a Purgatory. For in the tyme of The ſcholemē ſay that in the tyme of the olde Teſtament there was no Purgatory.the old Teſtament there was no purgatory as the Scholemen graūt themſelues but onelyonly a place of reſt which they called Limbus patrum: wherfore they are pitiouſly deceaued that will proue Purgatory by the textes of the old Teſtament, ſith, as they ſay themſelues, there was no Purgatory at that tyme.

Finally, I cā not finde a place that 9.of it ſelfe more properly cōfuteth this phantaſticall Purgatory, then doth this ſame texte whiche they ſticke ſo ſore to, imaginyng that it ſtabliſheth Purgatory. The text ſaith on this maner, except hee had hoped that they which were ſlayne ſhould riſe agayn, It ſhould ſéeme voyde and in vayne to pray for the dead. If you fayne a Purgatory, thē muſt this text néedes be falſe: for be it in caſe that the dead ſhould not riſe agayne. Now ſayth the text that it were voyde & in vayne to pray for the dead if they ſhould not riſe agayne. But if there were a Purgatory wherein they ſhould be purged and puniſhed in the meane ſeaſon: then were it not in vayne to pray for them to deliuer them out of that payne, but rather very frutefull and neceſſary although they ſhould neuer ryſe agayne. And therfore if this text be of authoritie, is it impoſſible that there ſhould be any Purgatory, neither is there any text that in my iudgement can better vndermine Purgatory and make it fall.

Peraduenture you deſire to know my mynde in this place, and that I ſhould expoūd vntounto you what Iudasment A declaration of the meanyng of Iudas Machabeus in offeryng hys ſacrifice for the dead.in his oblatiō ſith he thought of no Purgatory as y^t foreſayd text doth well ſpecifie. Ʋerely I thinke that Iudas beleued that there ſhould be a reſurrection, as this text prayſed hym, ſaying, thinkyng well and deuoutly of the reſurrection. For among the Iewes there were many that beleued not the reſurrection of our fleſh, and they that beleued it were yet ſo rude and ignoraūt, that they thought they ſhould ryſe but to obtayne a carnall kyngdome & hauehave their enemyes ſubdued vnderunder them without rebellion. And thereto ſticke the Iewes vntounto this day. And it is moſt lyke that this ſhould be his meanyng, we ſhall all ryſe agayne, and poſſeſſe this land in peace, and theſe men which are ſlaine are out of the fauour of God becauſe they hauehave contrary to the law. Deut. Deut. 7.Deut 7vij. Take of the idols oblations, therfore is it beſt that we ſend a ſacrifice vntounto Ieruſalem to pacifie the wrath of God towardes them, leſt whē they p. 40riſe againe the Lord ſhould ſend ſome plague amongeſt vsus for their trāſgreſſiō which they committed while they were here lyuyng. If any mā can better Iudas Machabeus thought of no Purgatory.geſſe I am wel cōtent to admit it, but this is playne inough: he thought that this ſacrifice could not helpe thē before they ſhould riſe agayne, which doth fully deſtroy Purgatory. For where he ſayth that it were voyde & in vayne to pray for the dead excepte they ſhould ryſe agayne: Is euen as much to ſay vntounto hym that hath any witte as that this prayer & ſacrifices can do them no good before they be riſen agayne from death: for els were it not in vayne to praye for them although they ſhould neuer ryſe agayn. As by example, if I ſay to a man that he ſhall neuer obtayne his purpoſe except he ſhould ſue to the kings grace, it is euen as much to ſay to a mā that hath any wytte, as he ſhall neuer obtaine his purpoſe before he hath ſued to the kynges hyghnes.

Maſter More goeth about to ieſt M. More is like to be proued an inſipient.them out of countenaunce which ſay that the booke of Machabées is not autētike becauſe it is not receaued in y^t Canon of the Hebrues and ſayth that by this reaſon we may alſo denye the booke of Sapience & proue our ſelues inſipientes: but verely, if he admitte the booke of Sapience to be true and autentike, I feare me it will go nye to proue hym an inſipient for grauntyng that there is a Purgatory. Read the. 45. argument agaynſt Raſtell, & then iudge whether I ſay true or not.

Hetherto hauehave I let ſlyp our ſhoteanker and hauehave runne the Seas with hym, grauntyng him for his pleaſure that this booke ſhould be of as good authority as Eſay. Not that the Church or holy Doctours, or any wiſe man ſuppoſeth it of ſo good authoritie, but onelyonly to ſée what concluſion might be brought vponupon it (that once graūted.) And if any man would require my Iohn Frithes iudgement of y^• bookes of the Machabees.iudgement as concerning this booke, I would ſhortly aunſwere that either this booke is falſe and of no authoritie, or els that Chriſt & his Apoſtles all holy Doctours & Scholemen therto are falſe and without authoritie. For he that admitteth prayers and ſacrifice to be done for the dead, yea & alſo affirmeth that they are holy and whole ſome for ſuch ſinnes as are dā ned by the law of God (which are in déede very mortall) doth not he agaynſt the word of God, yea and alſo agaynſt the cōmon conſent of all mē? But this booke doth ſo: which admitteth prayer and ſacrifice to bée done for the dead that were ſlayne in the battayle for theyr offence, yea and alſo damned by the law. Deut. 7. Now conclude your ſelues what ye thinke of this booke.

Thus much hath M. More brought (to proue his purpoſe) out of the old Teſtament and I thinke ye ſée it ſufficiently aunſwered. And now he entendeth to proue hys Purgatory by good and ſubſtaunciall authoritie in the new Teſtament alſo.

FIrſt let vsus conſider (ſayth Maſter M. More.More) the wordes of the bleſſed Apoſtle and Euangeliſt. S. Iohn. 1. Iohn. 5.1 John 5where he ſayth. Eſt peccatum ad mortem, non dico vt pro eo roget quis. There is ſayth hee ſome ſinne that is vntounto the death, I byd not that any man ſhould pray for that, this ſinne as the interpreters agree is vnderſtād Deſperatiō and impenitency are damnable ſinners.of deſperation and impenitēce, as though Saint Iohn, would ſay: that who departe out of this world impenitent or in deſpayre, any prayer after made can neuer ſtand hym in ſtede. Then it appeareth clearely that S. Iohn meaneth that there are other whiche dye not in ſuch caſe for whom hee would men ſhould pray, becauſe that prayer, to ſuch ſoules may be profitable. But that profite can no man take beyng in heauen where it needeth not, nor beyng in hell where it boteth not, wherefore it appeareth that ſuch prayer helpeth onelyonly for Purgatory, which thou muſt therfore nedes graunt except thou deny S. Iohn.

The text is written. 1. Iohn. 5. Frith. 1. Iohn. 5.1 John 5which ſayth: there is a ſinne vntounto the death, I byd not that any man ſhall pray for that. In this place doth M. More vnderſtād by this word death, p. 41temporall death, and then he taketh his pleaſure. But we will deſire hym to looke two lynes aboue, and not to ſnatch one péece of the text on this faſhion. I will rehearſe you the whole text and then ye ſhal heare myne aunſwere. The text is this, if any man perceaue that his brother doth ſinne, a ſinne not vntounto y^t death, let him aſke and he ſhall geue hym lyfe, to them that ſinne not vntounto death. For there is ſome ſinne that is vntounto death I bid not that any mā ſhould pray for that. Now marke myne aunſwere. Death and life be contrary and both wordes are in this text, therfore if you vnderſtand this woord death for temporall death, then muſt you, alſo vnderſtand by this word life, temporall lyfe. And ſo ſhould our prayer reſtore men agayne vntounto temporall lyfe. But I enſure you, M. More taketh this word M. More is confuſe in the interpretation of the ſcriptures.death ſo confuſedly that no mā can tel what he meaneth. For in one place he taketh it for temporall death, ſaying: who ſo depart out of this world impenitent. &c. And in an other place he is compelled to take it for euerlaſtyng death. Therfore will I ſhewe you the very vnderſtandyng of y^t text. And better interpreters deſire I none then Chriſt him ſelfe which ſayd vntounto the Phariſeis, eueryevery blaſphemy ſhall be forgeuen, but y^t blaſphemy againſt the holy ghoſt (which S. Iohn calleth a ſinne vntounto the death) ſhall neuer be forgeuen, but is giltie vntounto euerlaſtyng damnation. Marke. iij. what ſinne or blaſphemie is this? verely Marke. 3.Mark 3y^t declareth S. Marke, ſaying. They What blaſphemy and ſin againſt the holy ghoſt …s.ſayd that he had an vncleane ſpirite y^t was y^t ſinne vntounto death euerlaſtyng, that was the ſinne, that ſhould neuer be forgeuen. He proueth ſo euidently vntounto thē that his miracles were done with y^t ſpirite of God, that they could not deny it. And yet of an hard and obſtinate hart, euen knowyng the contrary, they ſayd that he had a deuill within hym. Theſe Phariſeis dyed not forth with, but lyued peraduenture many yeares after. Notwithſtā ding if all the Apoſtles had prayed for theſe Phariſeis whiles they were yet lyuing, for all that their ſinne ſhould neuer hauehave bene forgeuen them. And truth is that after they dyed in impenitencie and deſperation, which was the frute of that ſinne, but not the ſinne it ſelfe.

Now ſée ye the meanyng of this The pure vnderſtanding.text, and what the ſinne vntounto death or agaynſt the holy ghoſt is. If any man perceaue his brother to ſinne a ſinne not vntounto death, that is not againſt the holy ghoſt: let him aſke and he ſhall geue him life, that is, let him pray vntounto God for his brother and his ſinne ſhalbe forgeuen him. But if he ſée his brother ſinne a ſinne vntounto death, that is, agaynſt the holy ghoſt, let him neuer pray for him for it boteth not. And ſo is not the text vnderſtand of prayer after this lyfe (as M. More imagineth) but euen of prayer for our brother which is lyuing with vsus.

Notwithſtanding this ſinne is not lightly knowne, excepte the perſon knowledge it hym ſelfe, or els the ſpirite of God opē it vntounto vsus. Therfore may we pray for all men, except we hauehave euident knowledge that they hauehave ſo offended as is before rehearſed. And this is his text taken from him wherwith he laboureth to proue Purgatory.

What ſay they to the wordes of M. More. Apoca. 5.S. Iohn Apoc. 5. I hauehave heard (ſayth he) eueryevery creature that is in heauen and vppon the earth and vnderunder the earth, and that be in the Sea and all thynges that be in them, all theſe hauehave I heard ſay, benediction, and honour, and glory and power for euer be to him, that is ſitting in the throne and vntounto the lambe. By the creatures in heauen hee meaneth aungels. By the creatures vponupon the Note.earth, he meaneth men. By the creatures vnderunder the earth, he meaneth the ſoules in Purgatory. And by the creatures in the Sea hee meaneth men that ſayle on the Sea.

By this text I vnderſtand not onelyonly Frith.aungels and men, but alſo heauen and earth and all that is in them, euē all beaſtes, fiſhes, wormes, and other creatures & thinke that all theſe creatures do prayſe the Lord. And where he taketh the creatures vnderunder y^t earth p. 42for the ſoules in Purgatory: I take … and More doth not agree.it for all maner of creatures vnderunder y^t earth, both wormes vermine and all other. And where he draweth the text and maketh the creatures in the ſea, to ſignifie men that are ſayling on the Sea: I ſay that the creatures in the Sea do ſignifie fiſhes, and ſuch other thyngs, and that S. Iohn by this textment euen playnly that all maner of thynges geue prayſe vntounto God and the lambe, yea and I dare be bold to adde that euen the very deuils & damned ſoules are compelled to prayſe hym. For their iuſt puniſhment commendeth his puyſaunt power & righteouſnes. Neither néedeſt thou to wōder or thinke this any new thyng, for Dauid in the 148. byddeth Serpentes beaſtes and byrdes to prayſe the Lord, as it is alſo written Dani. iij. And Paule ſayth Roma. 8. All maner A▪ true expoſition of the Scripture.of creatures long for our redemption and prayſe God for it, yea and mourne that the laſt day is not yet come that the elect children of God might enter into reſt: for then ſhall alſo thoſe creatures be deliuered frō their corruptiō and bondage into the libertie and glory of the children of God. Now iudge Chriſten reader whiche ſentence ſtandeth moſt with the Scripture and glory of God.

Doth not the bleſſed Apoſtle. M More.S. Peter as it appeareth. Actes. ij. ſay of our Sauiour Chriſte in this wiſe. Quem Deus ſuſcitauit ſolutis doloribus inferni. In theſe woordes he ſhewed that paynes of hell were loſed: but thoſe paynes were not the paynes of damned ſoules. And in limbo patrum there was no payne, Ergo, it was the payne of Purgatory which he looſed.

Alas what ſhall I ſay? I am in a Frith.maner compelled to ſay that this mā wandreth in wilfull blindneſſe. For els were it not poſſible that he ſhould erre ſo far as to bring in this text for hys purpoſe. The woordes of Peter are theſe: Ye men of Iſraell heare theſe wordes, Ieſus of Nazareth a man ſet foorth of God for you wyth powers, wonders, and tokens which God hath done by hym among you, as (you your ſelues know) after he was deliuered by the purpoſed counſell and foreknowledge of God, and you receyued hym of the handes of the wicked, ye crucifyed and kylled him whom God hath rayſed, diſſoluing the paynes of death: for it was impoſible that he ſhould be ſubdued of it. Here in ſtead of theſe wordes More purpoſely corrupteth the ſence of the Scripture.The paynes of death, he ſetteth the paynes of hell (as it is moſt like) euē of a purpoſed deceit. For albeit the mā would not take the payne to read the gréeke, yet if he had but once looked vponupon the tranſlation of hys olde frende and companion Eraſmus, it would hauehave taught him to hauehave ſayd, ſolutis doloribus mortis, that is, diſſoluing the paynes of death, according to the Gréeke, and very woordes of Luke which wrote theſe actes in the gréeke tongue.

And albeit the old tranſlation vſeth thys worde Infernus which is diuerſly taken in ſcripture, both for death, for a graue, & for hell, yet in this place is maiſter More wythout excuſe which calleth it hell in our Engliſh tongue. For albeit the woord of it ſelf were indifferent in the Latine, yet it is not indifferent in the Engliſh: for there is no Engliſh man that taketh thys woord hell, eyther for death, or for a graue, no not maiſter More himſelf. For firſt he tranſlateth the text falſely More falſely deſcāteth vppon the Scriptures.calling it hell, and then he deſcanteth on a falſe ground, and calleth hell, not death but purgatory: when S. Peter brought in theſe wordes for no other purpoſe but to proue y^t Chriſt was riſen from death through the power of hys Father, meaning, that God the Father dyd rayſe hys Sonne Chriſt notwythſtanding the ſorowfull paynes and panges which he ſuffred vntounto y^t death, for it was impoſſible that Chriſt ſhould be vtterly ſubdued of death. So that thys text proueth no more purgatory, then it proueth that maiſter More was hyred of the ſpiritualty to defend purgatory. Beſides M. More a proctour for Purgatory.that, if it ſhould ſerue for Purgatory (which no wiſe man wil graunt whē he ſéeeth the proceſſe of the Text) it ſhould proue nothing, but that Chriſt p. 43ſhould lye in the paynes of purgatory vntill God hys Father had holp him out: for the paynes▪ which he ſpeaketh of were Chriſtes paynes, which no man can deny if he read the Text. But what a fond opinion were that, to fayne that Chriſt which was without ſinne, ſhould be tormented in the paynes of purgatory.

The bleſſed Apoſtle Paule in his M. More. 1. Cor. 3.1 Cor 3firſt epiſtle to the Corinthians the third chapter, ſpeaking of our ſauiour Chriſt the very and only foundation of all our fayth and ſaluation, ſayth: If any man builde vponupon this foundation gold, ſiluer, precious ſtones, wood, hay, or ſtrawe, eueryevery mans worke ſhall be made open, for the day of the Lord ſhall declare it, for in the fire it ſhalbe ſhewed, & the fire ſhall proue what maner of thyng eueryevery mans worke M. More would faine proue a purgatory.is. If any mans worke that he hath builded thereon do abide, he ſhall hauehave a reward: if any mans worke burne, he ſhall ſuffer harme, but he ſhalbe ſafe, but yet as by fire. And finally he concludeth that thys woord fyre, muſt néedes ſignifie the fyre of Purgatorye.

He that conſidereth the order or F…ith.proces of the text ſhall eaſely perceiue that thys man erreth: for the Text ſpeaketh of the preachers, & blameth the Corrinthians that they made ſuch ſectes and diſſentions among them ſelues, for one ſayd that he was Paules man, and held on hys ſide: an other ſayd that he was Peters man: the thirde did ſticke to Apollo, and ſo foorth, euen as our friers do now a dayes, one ſect holdeth on S. Fraunces, an other of S. Dominike, the thyrd of S. Auſten. &c. S. Paule rebuketh theſe ſectes, & called the perſons carnall, commaunding them to take Chriſt for theyr head, & to cleaue onelyonly to him: and as for Apollo, Peter, and Paule he ſayth, that they are but miniſters of the woord▪ eueryevery mā according to the gyfte geuen hym of God, the one more, the other leſſe.

Paule planted Apollo watred, that is, Paule ſet the Corinthians in the ground of Chriſtes fayth, and then came Apollo and preached them further of Chriſt, and comforted them to abide in the way which they walked in: howbeit it was onelyonly God that made them proſper in the woord and gaue the encreaſe. Neuertheles eueryevery He ſhal laboreth much in Gods by … nyard ſhall receaue much. &c.man ſhall receaue according to his labour: if he preach much, the more ſhall be his reward: if he preach litle, therafter ſhall he be rewarded. For we are Gods workmē to preach hys worde, and you are Gods huſbandry whom we muſt till and dreſſe in declaring you the woord and perpetuall will of God: you are become Gods building thorough the grace of God which he hath geuen me, whome we muſt frame and ſo couch by the word of God, that we may make of you a temple of liuing ſtones. Lyke a wiſe woorkemaiſter hauehave I layd the foundation, for I firſt beganne to preach you Chriſt. Now commeth there an other and buildeth vponupon this my foū dation entendyng to inſtruct you further in the wayes of Chriſt. But let eueryevery mā take hede how he buildeth or preach vntounto you, for no man cā lay any other foundation then is layed already, for all our buildyng and preachyng leneth onelyonly on this pointe and principall ſtone, to declare vntounto you what Chriſt hath done for you.

If any builde on this foundation What it is to builde on gold, ſiluer or precious ſtone.gold, ſiluer, or precious ſtones, that is: if any man preach purely the word of God, which is likened to gold, ſiluer, and precious ſtones becauſe that as theſe are not conſumed with matteriall fire, but rather made more pure, euen ſo the pure word of God ſuffreth neither hurt nor damage in ſpirituall fire, that is temptation and perſecution.

Or els if any man build vponupon this What it is to buyld on wood, haye or ſtubble.foūdation woode, hay, or ſtubble, that is, if a man of good entent (but yet thorough ignoraunce) preach and teach you to ſticke vntounto ceremonies & mēs traditions (although they ſéeme neuer ſo glorious) and to ſuch thynges as are not groūded on Scripture (as S. Cyprian taught and defended to Cyprian.rebaptiſe hym, that was once Baptiſed and after fallen into hereſie, yea & p. 44many Byſhops conſented vntounto hym, yet was it ſurely a great errour) this is woode, haye and ſtubble that cā not endure the fire of temptation & lyght of Gods word.

EueryEvery mans worke ſhalbe declared for the day ſhall open it. Albeit it proſpere for a ſeaſon in the darke and can not be perceiued, yet whē the day commeth, which is the light of Gods worde, it ſhalbe eſpyed and iudged. The day ſhal open it that ſhalbe reuelated in fire, and the fire ſhall proue eueryevery mans worke what it is. Fire ſignifieth temptation, tribulation, perſecution &c. whiche ſhall proue eueryevery mans workes. If any mans worke that hee hath builded doe abyde this How eueryevery mans work is tryed by fire.fire, that is, if the word that a man hath preached do abyde all aſſaultes & temptatiōs, it is a token that they are ſurely grounded on the Scripture of God, and then ſhall the preacher receiue his reward. If any mans worke be burnt, that is if the preachers wordes will not abyde the tryall and light but vaniſh away, then is it a token that they are not well grounded on Scripture, and ſo ſhall he ſuffer hurt, for it ſhalbe a great croſſe and vexation to the preachers hart that he hath bene ſo deceiued hym ſelfe and hath alſo ledde other into his errour. Notwithſtādyng he ſhalbe ſaued, becauſe of his fayth in the foundation, which is Chriſt, and his ignoraunce ſhalbe pardoned ſith he erreth not of a malicious purpoſe but of a good zeale. But yet ſhall it be as it were a fire to him, for it ſhall greue his hart to ſée that he had laboured in vayne, and that hee muſt deſtroy the ſame which he before through ignoraunce preached: this is the proceſſe & pure vnderſtandyng of the text.

There is no man but he graūteth that theſe wordes, foundation, laying Wordes figuratiuely ſpoken.of foundation, buildyng, gold, ſiluer, precious ſtones, wood, haye and ſtubble are figuratiuely ſpoken: and why cā they not ſuffer that this word fire be ſo taken to? But where they finde this word fire, what ſoeuer the proceſſe be, there plante they Purgatory by and by, without any further conſideratiō. And yet if they had any iudgement at all, they might well perceaue by Paules owne wordes that he tooke not this worde fire for material fire, as they groſſely imagine, but proceded in his Allegory and ſpake it figuratiuely: for Paule ſaith, He ſhalbe ſaued, but ſo as it were thorough fire. Marke well his wordes, he ſayth not that he ſhalbe ſaued through fire. But as it were thorough fire, ſignifiyng that it ſhalbe a great grief & veratiō vntounto him. So that by theſe wordes of Paule, a very child may perceaue what he ment.

Furthermore, if they be ſo ſtifnecked that they will not bow to y^t truth, but ſtill perſeuer in their owne phantaſies faynyng Purgatory out of this place: thē will I boldly ſay vntounto them that there ſhall no man enter into it but onelyonly preachers. For in this place Paul onelyonly ſpeaketh of them, and affirmeth that it is their preachyng and learnyng that ſhall be ſo proued thorough fire, and that ſuch a Preacher ſhall be ſaued, but yet as it were thorough fire. And therfore may the temporaltie be of good comfort, for I promiſe them that by this texte they ſhall neuer hauehave hurt in this their painfull Purgatory.

DOth not our bleſſed Sauiour M. More. Math. 12.Matt 12him ſelfe ſay that there is a certaine ſinne which a man may ſo cō mit agaynſt the holy ghoſt, that it ſhall neuer be remitted▪ nor forgeuen, neither in this world, nor in the world to come? Now when our Lorde ſayth that the blaſphemy agaynſte the holy ghoſt ſhall not be forgeuē, neither in this world, nor in the world to come, he geueth vsus cleare knowledge, that of other ſinnes, ſome ſhall bee forgeuen in this world, and ſome in the world to come.

Although this argument be a very Frith.Sophiſme, yet is there neither one rule in Sophiſtry that can proue this A ſubtile ſophiſme.argument, nor yet one Sophiſter ſo fooliſh as to graunt it.

For if I ſhould ſay vntounto mine enemy that I would neither forgeue him p. 45as lōg as I lyued nor after my death, becauſe hee had done me ſome haynous treſpaſſe, then would men coūt hym worſe thē made that would ſay, Frith will not forgeue his enemy as long as he lyueth nor after his death, Ergo, ſome mē will forgeue their enemyes after their death. For when I ſay that I will not forgeue hym, neither in my life nor after my death, I meane that I wil neuer forgeue him, and make that addiction becauſe hée ſhould not of fooliſhnes looke for any ſuch forgeueneſſe.

But thus foloweth the argument There is no remiſſiō of ſinnes after this lyfe.well, It ſhall not be forgeuen in thys world nor in the world to come, ergo, it ſhall neuer be forgeuen. And euen ſo doth the holy euangeliſt S. Marke expounde theſe woordes of Chriſt in the thyrd chapter. For Mathew ſaith chap. 12. He that ſpeaketh agaynſt the holy Ghoſt ſhal neuer hauehave it forgeuen in this world nor in the world to come: Marke expoundeth it thus, Marke. 3.Mark 3he that ſpeaketh a blaſphemy agaynſt the holy Ghoſt hath no remiſſion for euer, but is giltie vntounto euerlaſtyng damnation.

But of thys I hauehave ſpoken ſufficiently before (in ſoluting the Text 1, Ioh. 5.) both what the ſinne and alſo how the text is to be vnderſtand. Neither affirmeth the Scripture in any place that any ſinne is forgeuen after thys lyfe, but ſayth, be ready for ye know not the time when the Lorde ſhall come, as who ſhould ſay, in this lyfe is remiſſion and full mercy to be had: labour therfore to attayne it, for after thys lyfe is no ſuch forgeuenes, but euen as the Lord findeth thee, ſo ſhall he iudge thée. Hys next and laſt argument of ſcripture is this:

CHriſt ſayth, as it is rehearſed in M. More. Math. 12.Matt 12the xij. of Matthew, that men ſhall yeld a reckenyng of eueryevery idle worde, and that ſhall be after thys preſent lyfe. Then wotteth eueryevery man that by that reckoning is vnderſtand a puniſhment therefore, which ſhal not be in hell, and much leſſe in heauen, and therfore can it be no where els but in Purgatory.

Verily I hauehave not heard of a patrone Frith.that ſo vnprofitably defendeth hys clyent, nor yet of any man that geueth himſelfe ſuch proper trippes to caſt himſelfe, except he went about M. More doth quyte ouerthrow hym ſelfe.to betray and vtterly deſtroy the part which he would ſéeme to fauour: for thys text maketh more agaynſt hym, then any that he brought before ſéemeth to make with him. The wordes of Mathew are theſe: I tell you that of eueryevery idle woord that men ſpeake, ſhall they yéeld a reckoning in the day of iudgement: but that leaueth he out full craftely. Now let vsus reaſon of thys text. By the reckoning is vnderſtood a puniſhment for the ſinne (as maiſter More ſayth himſelf) and thys reckoning ſhall be vppon the day of dome, ergo, then this puniſhment for ſinne, can not be before the day of dome, but either vponupon or els after the day of dome: For God will not firſt puniſh them, and then after reckon with them to punyſhe them a new: And ſo is purgatory quite excluded: Here by M. Mores argument, Purgatory is quyte excluded.For all they that euer imagined any purgatory do put it before the iudgement: for when Chriſt commeth to iudgement then ceaſeth purgatory as they all conſent: neyther is there any prayer or ſuffrage which at that time can do any helpe at all. And ſo hath maſter More by thys text geuen him ſelfe a proper fall.

Here may you ſée how ſtrong hys reaſons are: and what wil happen to him that taketh in hand to defend the falſhode agaynſt the truth of Goddes woord: for hys reaſons make more agaynſt him then wyſh him. You may well know that if hys matter had ben any thing lykely, he would hauehave coloured it of an other faſhion. But ſith ſuch a patrone ſo greatly commended for his conueyance & wiſedome handleth this matter ſo flenderly, you may well miſtruſt hys cauſe. Thys is the laſt reaſon grounded of Scripture, wherwith he hath laboured to proue purgatory. And after thys reaſon he reckeneth vp the doctours, and ſayth for his pleaſure that al make for him: but as touching the doctoures I will make a ſufficient aunſwer in the third p. 46part, which is agaynſt my Lorde of Rocheſter.

Thus he leaueth the Scripture, which he hath full vnmanerly handled, and now endeuoureth himſelfe to proue his purpoſe by ſome probable reaſons. And firſt he bringeth in hys old argument that the church can not erre, to the which reaſon I néede not to aunſwer, for William Tyndall hath declared aboundantly in a treatiſe which by Goddes grace you ſhall ſhortly hauehave, what the church is, and alſo that it both may erre, & doth erre, if the pope and his adherents be the church, as M. More imagineth.

AFter thys he confirmeth hys fantaſie M. More.with phantaſticall apparitions, ſaying: that there hauehave in eueryevery country and in eueryevery age apparitions bene had, and well knowne & teſtified, by which men hauehave had ſufficient reuelation and proofe of purgatorye. Howe many hauehave by Gods moſt gracious fauour appeared to theyr freendes after theyr death, and ſhewed themſelues holpen and deliuered thence by pilgrimages, almeſdeedes, prayer. &c. If they ſay that theſe be lyes, then they be much worſe then their maſter Luther himſelfe, for he conſenteth in his ſermons that many ſuch apparitions bee true, and they be true: then muſt there needes be a purgatory.

Here playeth maſter More the ſuttle M. More is a ſubtill Sophiſter.ſophiſter, and would deceiue men wyth a fallace, which lyeth in thys woorde, true, ſo that when he ſayeth that ſuch apparitions be true, thys ſentence may be taken two maner of wayes. One, that it is true that ſuch phantaſticall apparitions do appeare to diuers, and that I thinke no man be ſo foliſh but he will graunt him.

And yet in déede are they no ſoules but very deuils that ſo appeare to delude men, that they ſhould fall frō the the fayth of Chriſt and make a God of their owne workes truſtyng to be ſaued thereby. But to ſuppoſe this true that they are the ſoules of Purgatory which ſo appeare, is very fonde falſe and agaynſt all Scripture, for Eſay ſayth, ſhall we go from the quicke vntounto the dead? that is, ſhall we enquire Eſay. 8.Isa 8of the dead and beleue them in ſuch pointes as cōcerne our wealth? Nay ſayth he, but vntounto the law & witnes, that is vntounto God and his word.

And ſo are we moniſhed by Eſay Truth is not to bee ſought of the dead.in the. 8. that we beleue no ſuch phantaſies, we are commaūded by the law of God, that we enquire not of the dead, not for the truth, for God abhorreth it. Deut. xviij.

Beſides that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doth vtterly condemne all ſuch apparitions, that they are no ſoules which appeare but very deuils. For when the rich man deſired that Lazarus might go & warne Luke. 16.Luke 16his brethrē, that they ſhould not come into that place of payne, Abrahā aunſwered, that they had Moſes and the Prophetes, addyng alſo, that if they beleued not them, then would they not beleue although one ſhould riſe agayne and tell it them.

And ſo may I conclude that it were in vayne to ſend them any ſuch apparitions of ſoules, & that in very déede there are no ſoules ſent of God, but that they are verely deuils whiche come to delude the people, & to withdraw them from Chriſt. Furthermore all men graunt that the appearyng of Samuell was but an illuſion of the deuill, thou ſhalt finde the ſtory. i. Reg. xxviij.

It is not long ſith ſuch a queſtion 1. Kinge. …3was moued in Oxford, the thing was this, there was a poore man of the coū trey, whiche was ſore troubled with ſuch apparitions, for there came a thyng to him which deſired him to go certaine pilgrymages and to do certaine other ceremonies whereby it ſayd that it ſhould be deliuered from innumerable torments which it now ſuffered. The poore man beleued that An apparition of a ſpirite moued to certeine of Oxford.this thyng ſayd truth, and dyd as it commaunded. Notwithſtandyng it came ſo often vntounto him, that what with labour and what with feare, the mā was almoſt beſides him ſelfe, and then was hee ſent to Oxford to aſke counſell what was beſt to bee done. The queſtion was moued to one Doctour p. 47Nicolas, and hee affirmed by & by that it was no ſoule but the very deuill, and that he ſhould no more folow the fendes appetite. Then was it moued to D. Kyngton, and he affirmed the ſame. Finally, they enquyred of D. Roper what his minde was therin, & he ſayd that he would looke on his booke, and when he had looked his pleaſure, he gaue this aunſwere. Let him alone a while (quoth he) and I warraunt you, that this felow ſhall either hang him ſelfe, or drowne hym ſelfe, or come to ſome other miſchief. Thus determined theſe men whiche are a great deale to ſuperſtitious to diſſent from any of the old Doctours, yea or els from their owne Scholemen. And yet would M. More make vsus beleue that they were very ſoules, & that by ſuch ceremonies they might be deliuered.

Now commeth M. More to ſolute thoſe two reaſons that were brought agaynſt Purgatory in the Supplication of Beggers, which was y^t whole occaſion of his booke. And marke how ſlender his ſolutiōs are. The firſt reaſon is this. If there were any Purgatory out of which the Pope might deliuer one ſoule by hys pardon, then may he by the ſame authoritie deliuer many: and if he may deliuer many, then may he deliuer them all. The ſecond reaſon is this. If he can deliuer them for money: then may he alſo deliuer them wythout money. And then is he a very cruel tyraunt which kéepeth them in paynes ſo intollerable (as he imagineth him ſelfe) vntill they pay money.

THe firſt hee ſoluteth on this maner: M. More his ſolution of the two former reaſons.Sith our Lord ſendeth them thether for ſatiſfaction to be made in ſome maner for their ſinne: the Pope ſhould rather agaynſt Gods purpoſe delyuer them free then chaunge the maner of their ſatiſfaction frō payne into prayer, almoſe or other good workes to be done by their frendes for them in ſome pointe profitable and neceſſary for the whole corps of Chriſtēdome or ſome good member of the ſame.

As concernyng ſatiſfaction, I hauehave ſpoken ſufficiētly before agaynſt Raſtell. Frith.The Scripture knoweth no other ſatiſfaction to be made for ſinne towardes God, but onelyonly the bloud of his ſonne Ieſu Chriſt, for if there were an other ſatiſfaction then dyed Chriſt in vayne: yea and he that ſéeketh any other ſatiſfactiō for his ſinne (towardes God) then Chriſtes bloud (which muſt be receiued with a repē tyng hart through fayth) doth deſpiſe Chriſtes bloud and treade it vnderunder his féete. And ſo is the firſt part of M. Mores ſolution falſe, that they ſhould M. More his argument is falſe.be ſhut in Purgatory to make ſatiſfaction.

Beſides that where hee ſayth that if the Pope ſhould ſo deliuer them, he ſhould deliuer them free. I ſay nay. For the Pope can deliuer no mā from thence vntil ſatiſfactiō be made, as both he & all his adherentes graūt. And therefore to finde away how he might ſeme to deliuer thē, he fayneth that he hath in his hands the merites of Chriſtes paſſion, and the merites of all Saintes to deſtribute them at his pleaſure. And therfore might the Pope apply the merites of Chriſtes paſſion & of other Saintes vntounto theſe ſely ſoules and ſo deliuer them. For thoſe merites ar inough to ſatiſfie for y^t ſoules in purgatory, if there were ten tymes ſo many. And ſo ſhould the Pope deliuer them not frée, but chaū gyng the maner of their ſatiſfaction from payne, into merites of Chriſtes paſſion and of all Saintes. And ſo is this reaſon not abated but rather ſtrō ger thē it was before. Howbeit to ſay the truth, the merites of Chriſtes paſſion are onelyonly diſtributed vntounto the faythfull, and tha… by God and his ſpirite and not by the Pope. And as for the merites of Saintes can not helpe other, for they hauehave to litle for them ſelues if God ſhould enter into iudgement with them. Pſalme. 104. And Chriſt ſayth: Luke. 17. when Chriſt ſayth.you hauehave done all that is commaunded you, ſay we are vnprofitable ſeruauntes. To this well agréeth the parable of the x. Ʋirgins. Math. 25. whiche could not depart with any of theyr oyle, for feare that they ſhould p. 48not hauehave had inough for them ſelues.

THe ſecond reaſon byteth him ſomwhat, and therefore he calleth it vnreaſonable, and would auoyd it by an example on thys wiſe:

Preſuppoſe that the Pope may M. M…e…ſecond reaſon.deliuer al ſoules out of purgatory, yet if he were therfore cruell as oft as he leueth any there. This vnreaſonable reaſon layeth cruelty vntounto the blame of God which may vndoubtedly deliuer al ſoules thence and yet he leaueth thē there. This blaſphemye ſhould alſo touch hys hye maieſtie for keeping any ſoule in hell, from whence no man doubteth but that he might if he liſt deliuer them all for euer.

I aunſwere, that the example is F…ith.nothing like, for God can deliuer no man neither from hell, nor from purgatory (if ſuch one were) vntill hys iuſtice be counterpayſed, as I hauehave ſufficiently proued agaynſt Raſtell. And if you obiect his abſolute power then aunſwer I that he hath an abſolute iuſtice as well as an abſolute power, and ſo can hys abſolute power do nothing vntill hys abſolute iuſtice be ſatiſfyed. And agayne I ſay, that God hath no power nor luſt to do agaynſt hys ſcripture and himſelf: God cānot be againſt himſelfe.but his power & luſt is to fulfill that he hath promiſed: vntounto the faythfull, euerlaſting glory: and vntounto the wicked eternall damnation. So that god by hys ſcripture can deliuer no man out of hell, for then had he power to make himſelfe a lyer, & ſo were he no God: neither can he deliuer any man out of purgatory (ſuppoſed that there were one) vntill hys iuſtice be pacified. But the pope (as he ſayth himſelfe) hath the full ſatiſfaction in hys own hand wherby Gods iuſtice muſt be pacified: wherfore it is onelyonly the popes fault, which hath the ſatiſfaction in his power, and will not geue it till he hauehave money, & not Gods fault which muſt néedes tary vntill ſatiſfaction be made. And ſo is thys reaſon as ſtrong as it was before, & the pope proued a cruell tyraunt.

BVt yet to excuſe the pope he ſayth, It is not meete that the Pope M… More.ſhould be ſo quicke in deliueraūce: for ſo ſhould he geue a great occaſion to mē boldly to fall into ſinne and litle to care or feare how ſlowly they ryſe agayne, and that were not mete for his office.

Forſooth this is a gentle reaſon. He Frith.may not be quicke in deliueraūce becauſe he ſhould geue men occaſion of ſinne. But for one peny he will quyte deliuer you and that with ſpede. For A penny offred into S. Dominickes boxe worketh great matter.if ye offer a peny into S. Dominikes boxe, aſſoone as ye heare y^e peny ryng in the boxe, euen ſo ſoone is the ſoule in heauē. Call you not that quicke deliueraūce? If you geue not that peny, then may he not deliuer the ſoule, for it ſhould be an occaſion of ſinne. But if you geue that peny thē is there no ſuch occaſiō of ſinne. Such great vertue Note what ve… is in a p…y.hath that one peny in M. Mores ſight, that it cleane wypeth away the occaſion of ſinne.

Furthermore, if this redemption may be done for money, it ſhall be ſtill an occaſion vntounto the rich that they regard not ſinne, and yet they had more néed to be brydeled then the poore: for where riches & aboundaunce is there raygneth ſinne moſt of all. Howbeit I hauehave ſhewed ſufficiently before agaynſt Raſtell, that they which feare not to ſinne but for feare of purgatorye, ſhall neuer come into it, but be damned in hell. For we ſhould not abſtaine from ſinne for any feare, but for the pure louelove that we hauehave to god our moſt mercifull Father. &c.

THen commeth maiſter More to this imagination, that we ſhould ſay, how no mans prayer or good M. More.deed can help an other. And (ſaith he) if that were true, thē could not Chriſtes bitter pasſion proſite vsus.

Sir mine opiniō of Chriſtes death Frith.is this: 1 We hauehave al ſinned in Adam without our own conſent and worke.Ioh. Frith declareth his opinion of Chriſtes death.

1 And we are looſed from ſinne thorough Chriſt without our workes or deſeruinges.

2 Sinne is come into the world thorow Adam, and is puniſhed w^t death.

2 The death through Chriſt is turned into a medicine, and cleane finiſheth ſinne.

p. 493 One mans ſinne whiche is Adam, hath condemned many men.

3 One mans grace which is Chriſt, hath vanquiſhed ſinne and holpen many.

4 If one mans ſinne be able to condemne vsus without our workes.

4 Then much more is Gods grace of power to ſaue vsus without our workes.

5 Sinne thorough Adam was planted in vsus.

5 Grace thorough Chriſt is planted in vsus.

6 Sinne hath had dominion ouer all men through Adam.

6 Grace preuaileth ouer vsus through Chriſt.

7 Death thorough ſinne is planted in vsus.

7 Life through grace is plāted in vsus.

8 Death thorough ſinne hath dominion ouer vsus.

8 Lyfe through grace preuayleth ouer vsus.

9 Synne and death hauehave cōdemned all men.

9 Grace and life hauehave ſaued all men.

10 Thorough Adam, Adams ſynne was counted our owne.

10 Thorough Chriſt, Chriſtes righteouſneſſe is reputed vntounto vsus for our owne.

¶ Of this may you perceaue that we thinke that Chriſtes death profiteth vsus, for we take hys death and reſurrection for our whole redemption and ſaluation. Now as concernyng How mens prayers & good dedes do help one an other.mens good déedes and prayers, I ſay that they profite our neighbours: yea and good woorkes were ordeined for that entent that I ſhould profite my neighbour through them: And prayer ought to bee made to God for eueryevery ſtate. But if I ſhould graūt that ſuch workes & prayers ſhould helpe them that are departed, thē ſhould I ſpeake cleane without my booke, for the word of God knoweth no ſuch thyng. Let them therefore that pray for the dead examine them ſelues well with what fayth they do it, for fayth leaneth onelyonly on the, word of God, ſo that where his worde is not there can be no good fayth: and if their prayer procede not of fayth, ſurely it can not pleaſe God. Hebrues. xj.

NOw. ſuppoſe (ſayth M. More) that Purgatorye could in no M. More.wiſe be proued by Scripture, and that ſome wold yet ſay plainly that there were one and ſome would ſay playnly nay, let vsus now ſee whether ſorte of theſe twayne myght take moſt harme if their parte were the wrong. Firſt he that beleued there were Purgatory, & that his prayer and good workes wrought for his frendes ſoules might relieue them therein, and becauſe of that vſed much prayer and almoſe for them, he could not leſe the reward of his good wil although his opiniō were vntrue and that there were no Purgatory at all. But on the other ſide, he that beleueth there is none, and therfore prayeth for none: if his opiniō be falſe and that there be Purgatory in deede, hee leſeth much good, and getteth hym alſo much harme. For hee both feareth much leſſe to ſinne, and to lye lōg in Purgatory, ſauing that his hereſie ſhall keepe hym thence, and ſende hym downe deepe into hell.

I aūſwere, that he ſhould take moſt Frith.harme that beleued there were a Purgatory, if his opiniō were wrong and could not be proued by the Scripture (as M. More ſuppoſed) for he ſhould ſinne and tranſgreſſe agaynſt the law of God which ſayth. Deut. xij. That I commaunde thée that onelyonly do vntounto the Lord, neither adde any thyng nor diminiſh. And before in the iiij. chap. of the ſame booke, ye ſhall not adde vntounto the woorde that I ſpeake vntounto you neither ſhall ye take any thyng from it. And agayne in the v. chapter ye ſhall not decline neither to the left hād (doyng that which is good in your owne ſight) neither yet vntounto the right hand, doyng that which I manifeſtly forbyd you as though he ſhould ſay, doe that onelyonly whiche I commaunde thée. And where M. More ſayth that hee can not leſe the rewarde of hys good will, although his opinion be vntrue. I aunſwere yes for it is but choſen holyneſſe which Paule condē neth. p. 50Colloſ. 2. which ſurely ſhall rather be imputed vntounto hym for ſynne then for any good worke. And becauſe It is better not to beleue that which the ſcripture aloweth not, thē to make a fayth where we ſhould not.(as I ſayd before) it can not be done through fayth. I ſay that it is vtterly reproued of God. And on the other ſide he that beleueth it not, ſith it can not be proued by Scripture, cā catch no harme at all, although his opinion were falſe, but rather much good and prayſe both of God and all good men: becauſe he feareth to ſwerue frō the word of God, and had leuer not to be leue that thyng which is true (be it in caſe that purgatory were) and not ſet forth in Scripture, for ſo ſhall he be ſure not to ſinne: then to beleue for an article of y^t fayth that thyng which is falſe in déede, for ſo ſhould he ſurely ſinne and tranſgreſſe agaynſt God and his holy woorde. And ſo is there great perill to beleue a thyng for an article of the fayth whiche is not opened nor ſpoken of in Scripture: But if I beleue it not (although it were true) yet is there no ryght nor law that can condemne me. Now may you ſée, that to beleue for an article of the fayth that there is a Purgatory, ſith it can not be proued by Scripture, may condemne a man and make hym lye for euer in the paynes of hell, where as the other ſhoulde but a litle lenger lye in the paynes of Purgatory (if there were one) and ſo ſhal he be ſure to catch moſt harme that beleueth there is a Purgatory. Sauyng (ſayth Maſter More) that M. More.hys hereſie ſhall keepe hym from thence, and ſende him downe depe into hell.

Before he ſuppoſed y^t it could not be Frith.proued by ſcripture. And now (ſtanding the ſame ſuppoſitiō) he calleth it an hereſie, & anhereſie is a ſtiffe holdē opinion repugnant vntounto Scripture. What is hereſie.If Purgatory can not bee proued by Scripture (as he maketh his ſuppoſition) then cā not the contrary opiniō be repugnaunt to Scripture, & thus of his own ſuppoſitiō he doth euill to cal it an hereſie. And where he ſayth, M. More is a ſore, iudge.that his opiniō ſhall ſende hym down déepe into hell, verely he ſteppeth to farre in Gods iudgement to conclude and determine ſo cruelly, & ſpecially in the ſame argument where he ſuppoſeth that it can not be proued, for if it can not bee proued by Scripture, whereby will ye condemne hym ſo déepe that holdeth the contrary? forſooth you are a fierce iudge. God geue you eyes to ſée.

FInallye, if ye pitie any man in M. More.payne, neuer knewe ye payne comparable to ours, whoſe fire paſſeth The fire of purgatory is a meruellous hot fire.as farre in heate all the fires that euer burned vppon earth, as the hoteſt of all thoſe paſſeth a fayned fire paynted on a wall.

Verely among all his other Poetrie Frith.it is reaſon that we graunt hym this. Yea and that our fire is but water in compariſon to it. For I enſure you it hath alone melted more gold Beholde here the force of the fire of purgatory.and ſiluer for our ſpiritualties profite out of poore mens purſes, then all the gold ſmithes fires within England, neither yet therewith can the ragyng heate be aſwaged. But it melteth caſtels, harde ſtones, landes and tenementes innumerable. For all your ſectes of Religion, Monkes, Friers, Chanons and Nunnes, with other Prieſtes regulare & ſeculare, by this fire, multiplication and alcumye hauehave obtayned their whole riches and pleaſures: euen the ſwete of England. And ſo muſt we graunt hym that this fire is very hote.

Now may you wel perceaue what a ſlender foūdation their hote purgatory hath. For by this confutatiō may you eaſely ſée that it hath no grounde nor authority of Scripture. Notwithſtandyng it is the foundation of all religions and cloyſters, yea and of all the goodes that nowe are in theſe ſpiritualtie. Are not they witty worke men whiche can buylde ſo much on ſo ſlender a foundation? Howbeit they hauehave made it ſo toppeheuye, that it is ſurely lyke to hauehave a fall. Thus hath M. More fully aunſwered to all that he can ſay for purgatory.Maſter More a full aunſwere, both to hys Scriptures whiche were to farre wreſted out of theyr places, and alſo to hys owne apparent reaſons. Howbeit if hys maſterſhyppe be not fully pacified, let hym more groundly p. 51open hys mynde, and bryng for his purpoſe all that he thinketh to make for it and I ſhall by Gods grace ſhortly make hym an aunſwere and quyet his mynde.

¶ Thus endeth the ſecond booke.