Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 11 · Account 22 · Examination 2
*Talke betweene Doctour Martin and the Archbishop.
MAyster Cranmer, yee hauehave tolde here a long glorious tale,Take betweene D. Martyn and … Archb…hop. pretending some matter of conscience in apparaunce, but in veritye you hauehave no conscience at all. You saye that you hauehave sworne once to Kynge Henrye the eyght aga…nste the popes iurisdiction, and therefore yee may neuer forsweare the same, and so yee make a greate matter of conscience in the breache of the sayde othe. Here will I aske you a question or two. What if ye made on oth to an harlot to liue with her in continuall adultery ought you to keepe it?
Cran.
I thinke no.
Mart.
…What if you did sweare neuer to lende a poore man one penny, ought you to keepe it?
Cran.
I thinke not.
Mart.
Herode did sweare what soeuer his harlot asked of him,Iephthes …. he would geue her, and he gaue her Iohn Baptistes head: did he well in keeping his oth?
Cran.
I thinke not.
Mart.
Iehpthe one of the Iudges of Israell did sweare vntounto God: that if he would geue hym victorye ouer hys enemies, hee woulde offer vntounto GOD the firste soule that came forth of hys house: it happened that hys owne daughter came first, and he slue her to saue his othe. Did he well?
Cran.
I thinke not.
Mart.
So sayth S. Ambrose de officijs. *That is, it … with ….Miserabilis necessitas quae soluitur parricidio. Then maister Cranmer, you can no lesse confesse by the premisses but that you oughte not to hauehave conscience of eueryevery othe, but if it be iust, lawful and aduisedly taken.
Cran.
So was that othe.
Mart.
That is not so, for first it was vniuste, for it tended to the taking away of an other mans right. It was not lawfull, for the lawes of God and the Churche were agaynst it. Besides, it was not voluntary, for euerye man and woman were compelled to take it.
Cran.
It pleaseth you to say so.
Mart.
The Archb. … to the … not … the pope.Let all the world be iudge. But sir, you that pretend to hauehave suche a conscience to breake an othe, I praye you did you neuer sweare and breake the same?
Cran.
I remember not.
Mart.
I will helpe your memory. Did you neuer sweare obedience to the sea af Rome?
Cran.
In deede I did once sweare vntounto the same.
Mart.
Yea that ye did twise, as appeareth by recordes & writinges here ready to be shewed.
Cran.
The Archb. … first to the pope ….But I remember I saued al by protestation that I made by the counsayle of the best learned men I coulde get at that time.
Mart.
Harken good people what this man saythe. Hee made a protestation one day, to keepe neuer a whitte of that whiche he woulde sweare the next day, was thys the part of a christian man? If a christian man would bargayn with a Turke, and before he maketh his bargayn solemnly, before witnesse readeth in hys Paper that hee holdeth secretly in hande, or peraduenture protesteth before one or two, that he mindeth not to performe what soeuer hee shall promise to the Turke: I say if a christian man would serue a Turke in thys manner, that the Chrystian man were worse then the Turke. What would you then saye to this man that made a solemne othe and promise vntounto God and his church, and made a protestation before quite contrary?
Cran.
That which I did, I did by the best learned mens aduise I could get at that tyme.
Mart.
I protest before all the learned menne here, that there is no learning will saue youre periury herein, for there be two rules of the Ciuill lawe cleane contrarye agaynst you, and so brought forth his rules: whiche beyng done, he proceeded further. But will you hauehave the truth of the matter? Kyng Henry the eyght euen then meant the lamentable chaunge which after you see came to passe: and to further hys pittifull proceedings from the diuorcement of hys moste lawfull wife,Doct. Martyn would proue the Archb. periured in forswearing his othe made to the Pope. to the detestable departyng from the vnitie of Christes Churche, thys manne made the foresayde protestation, and on the other side, hee letted not to make two solemne othes quite contrarye, & why? for otherwyse by the Lawes and Cannons of thys Realme hee coulde not aspire to the Archbyshopricke of Caunterbury.
Cran.
I protest before you all, there was neuer manne came more vnwilling to a Byshopricke, then I did to y•.Doct. Cranmer vnwilling to be made Ar…hb. In so much that when king Henry did sende for in Poste, that I should come ouer, I prolonged my iourney by vii. weekes at the least, thinking that he woulde be forgetfull of me in the meane tyme.
Mart.
You declare well by the way that the kyng tooke you to be a manne of good conscience, who could not fynd within all his realme anye manne that woulde set foorth his straunge attemptes, but was enforced to send for you in Post to come out of Germany. What may wee coniecture hereby, but that there was a compacte betweene you beyng then Queene Annes Chaplen, and the king. Geue me the Archbishopricke of Caunterbury,False slaunder of D. Martyn▪ and I will geue you licence to liue in adultery.
Ctan.
You say not true.
Mart.
Let your protestation, ioyned with the rest of your talke, geue iudgement. Hinc prima mali labes. Of that your execrable periurye, and his coloured and to shamefullye suffered adultery, came heresie and all mischiefe to thys Realme.
And this hauehave I spoken as touching your conscience you make for breaking youre hereticall othe made to the king. But to breake youre former othe made at two sundry times bothe to God and hys Churche, you hauehave no conscience at all. And now to aunswere an other parte of your Oration, wherein you bringe in Gods worde, that you hauehave it on your side and no man ells, and that the Pope hath deuised a new scripture contrary to the scriptures of God, yee playe herein as the Pharseis did whiche cryed alwayes *Nay the Phariseys cryed not Verbum Domini, but Templ… Domini, as the Papists do now agaynst the Protestantes.Verbum Domini, Verbum Domini. The word of the Lord, the word of the Lord, when they meant nothing so. This bettereth not your cause, because you say you hauehave Gods word for you, for so Basilides and Photinus the heretickes sayde, that they had Gods worde to maintayne theyr heresie. So Nestorius, so Macedonius, so Pelagius and briefly all the hereticks that euer were, pretended that they hadde GODS word for them, yea and so the deuill being the Father of Heresies alledged Gods worde for him, saying: Scriptum est, It is written: So sayde hee to Christe, Mitte te deorsum, Cast thy selfe backward, whiche you applyed most falsely agaynst the Pope.So did King Ezechias, and Iosies downe with Monumentes of Idolatry, and … commended. But if you marke the Deuils language well, it agreed wyth your proceedinges moste truelye. For Mitte te deorsum, Caste thy selfe downeward, sayde hee, and so taught you to cast all thinges downeward. Downe with the Sacramente, downe with the masse, downe with the Aultars, downe with the Armes of Chryste, and vpp with a Lyon and a Dog, downe with Abbeyes, downe with Chauntreys, downe with Hospitalles and Colledges, downe with *An other false slaunder of D. Martyn.fasting, and Prayer, yea downe with all that good and godly is. All your proceedinges and preachynges tended to no other, but to fulfill the Deuils request, Mitte te deorsum. And therefore tell not vsus that you hauehave Gods worde. For God hath geuen vsus by his worde, a marke to know that your teachyng proceeded not of God, but of the Deuill, and that youre doctrine came not of Christ, but of Antichrist. For Christ sayde there shoulde come agaynst hys Churche, Lupi rapaces, id est Rauening Wolues, and Pseudo apostoli, id est, False Apostles. But howe shoulde we knowe them? Christ teacheth vsus saying:Whether these be the fruites of the Gospellers or of the Papist… more, let the conuersation of them both geue iudgement. Ex fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos, id est. By theyr fruites yee shall knowe them. Why, what be theyr fruites? Sayncte Paule declareth: Post carnem in concupiscentia, & in munditia ambulant: potestatem contemnunt. &c. i. After the fleshe they walke in concupiscence, and vncleannesse: they contemne Potestates. I gayne: In diebus nouissimis erunt periculosa tempora, erunt se ipsos amantes, cupidi, elati, immorigeri parentibus: proditores. &c. In the latter dayes there shall bee perillous times. Then shall there be men louing themselues, couetous, proud, disobedient to parentes, treason-workers. Whether these be not the fruites of youre Gospell, I referre me to thys worshipfull audience: whether the sayde Gospell beganne not with periurye, proceeded with adultery, was mayntayned with heresie, and ended in conspiracy.
Anno 1556. March.Now sir, two poyntes more I marked in youre raging discourse that you made here: the one against the holy sacrament: the other agaynst the Popes iurisdiction, and the authoritie of the Sea Apostolicke.
Touching the first, ye say you hauehave Gods word with you,Doctrine of the Sacrament. yea and all the Doctoures. I woulde here aske but one question of you: whether Gods word be contrarye to it selfe, and whether the Doctours teache doctrine contrary to themselues, or no? For you mayster Cranmer, hauehave taught in this high sacrament of the Aultar three contrary doctrines, and yet you pretended in euerye one, Verbum Domini.
Cran.
Nay, I taught but two contrary doctrines in the same.
Mart.
What doctrine taught you when you condemned Lambert the sacramentary in the kinges presēce in Whitehall?
Cran.
I mayntayned then the Papistes doctrine.
Mart.
So was Saint Augustine first a Pagane, then a Manichee, & then a Catholicke.That is to say, the Catholicke and vniuersall doctrine of Christes Church. And how when kinge Henrye dyed? did you not translate Iustas Ionas booke?
Cran.
I did so.
Mart.
Then there you defended an other doctrine touchyng the Sacramente, by the same token, that you sent to Lynne your Printer, that where as in the first Printe there was an affirmatiue, that is to say, Christes body reallye in the sacramente, you sent then to your Prynter to put in a not, whereby it came miraculouslye to passe, that Chrystes bodye was cleane conueyed out of the Sacrament.
Cranmer.
I remember there was two Prynters of my sayde booke, but where the same not was put in, I cannot tell.
Mart.
Then from a Lutherane yee became a Swinglian, which is the vilest heresie of all in the highe misterie of the sacrament, and for the same heresie you did helpe to burne Lambert the Sacramentary, which you now call the catholicke fayth and Gods word.
Cranmer.
I graunt that then I beleeued otherwise then I do nowe,Doct. Cranmer first wonne to the knowledge of the Sacramēt by B. Ridley. and so I did vntill my Lord of London D. Ridley did conferre with me, and by sondry perswasions and authorities of Doctoures drewe mee quite from my opinion.
Mart.
Now sir, as touching the last parte of your Oration, you denyed that the popes holinesse was Supreme head of the church of Christ.Supremacye of the Pope.
Cran.
I did so.
Mart.
Who say you then is supreme head?
Cran.
Christ.
Mart.
But whome hath Christ left here in earth his Uicar and head of his Church?
Cran.
No body.
Mart.
Ah, why told you not king Henry this when you made him supreme head? and now no body is.
This is treason agaynst his owne person, as you then made him.
Cran.
I meane not but eueryevery king in his owne realme and dominion is supreme head, and so was hee supreme head of the Church of Christ in England.King Henry was not Supreame head, but onelyonly of his owne Realme. The Pope will be vniuersall head ouer all.
Mart.
Is this alwayes true? and was it euer so in chrystes Churche?
Cran.
It was so.
Mart.
Then what say you by Nero: he was the mightiest Prince of the earth after Christ was ascended: was he head of Christes Churche?
Cran.
Nero was Peters head.
Mart.
I aske whether Nero was head of the Churche or no? if he were not, it is false that you sayd before, that all Princes be and euer were heades of the Churche wythin their realmes.
Cran.
Nay it is true, for Nero was head of the church that is, in worldly respecte of the Temporall bodies of men, of whome the Church consisteth: for so he beheaded Peter and the Apostles. And the Turke too is head of the church in Turky.
Mart.
Then he that beheaded the heades of the Church and crucified the Apostles, was head of Chrystes Churche and he that was neuer member of the Churche, is head of the church, by your new founde vnderstanding of Gods worde.
¶It is not to be supposed contrarye, but muche other matter passed in this communication betweene them, especially on the Archbyshoppes behalfe. Whose answeres I do not thinke to be so slender, nor altogether in the same forme of wordes framed, if the truthe, as it was, might be knowne: but so it pleased the Notarye thereof being too muche parcially addicted to his mother Sea of Rome in fauour of his faction, to diminishe and driue downe the other side, either in not shewing all, or in reporting ye thing otherwise then it was:The aunswere of the Archb. not sincer… ly reported. as the common guise is of moste writers, to what side their affection moste wayeth, theyr Oration commonly inclineth. But let vsus proceede further in the story of this matter.
It followed then (sayth this reporter) when the Archbishop thus hadde aunswered and the standers by began to murmure agaynst him, the Iudges not contentee with hys aunsweres, willed hym to aunswere directly to the Interrogatoryes: whiche Interrogatories articulated agaynst him in forme of lawe, were these vnderunder following.