Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 11 · Account 18 · Examination 16 – Examination 17

Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2 · Book 11 · Account 18 · Examination 16 – Examination 17

p. 1824¶The thirtenth examination of Mayster Philpot, before the Archbishop of Yorke, and diuers other Bishops.

…THe Thursday after, I was called in the morning before the Archbishop of Yorke, the Byshop of Chichester, the Bishop of Bath, and the Bishop of London. The Byshop of Chichester being first come, beganne to talke with me.

Chich.

I am come of good will to talke with you, to instruct you what I can, to come to the Catholicke church, & to will you mistrust your owne iudgement, & to learn first to hauehave humility, & by the same to learne of others that be better learned then you, as they did learne of such as were their betters before them.

Phil.

We must all be taughte of God, and I will with all humilitye learne of them that will infourme me by Gods worde, what I hauehave to doe. I confesse I hauehave but little learning in respect of you,Fayth consisteth not in learning but in beleuing. that both of your yeares and great exercise to excell therin: but fayth consisteth not onelye in learning, but in simplicitye of beleuing that whiche Gods woorde teacheth. Therefore I will bee gladde to heare both of your Lordshippe, and of any other (that God hath reuealed vntounto by hys word) the true doctrine therof, and to thank you, that it doth please you to take paynes herein.

Chich.

You take the first alleged, amisse, as though all men should be taught by inspiratiō, and not by learning. How do we beleue the gospel, but by the authority of the church and because the same hath allowed it?

Phil.

S. Paule sayth: He learned not the Gospell by men, The authority of the Churchneyther of men, but by the reuelatiō of Iesus Christ: which is a sufficient proofe that the Gospell taketh not his authoritye of man, but of God onelyonly.

Chich.

S. Paule speaketh but of his own knowledge how he came thereto.

Phil.

Nay, hee speaketh of the Gospell generally, Whyche commeth not from man, but from God, The place of S. Austen I would not beleeue the worde if the Church did not moue me. &c.and that the Churche must onelyonly teach that which commeth from God, and not mans preceptes.

Chich.

Doth not Saynt Augustine say: I would not beleue the Gospell, if the authority of the Churche did not mooue me thereto?

Phil.

I graunte that the authoritye of the Churche doeth moue the vnbeleeuers to beleeue, but yet the Church geueth not the woorde his authority:The word hath his authority onelyonly of God & not of the Church. for the woorde hath his authority onelyonly from God, and not of man: mē be but disposers thereof. For firste the worde hath his beyng before the Churche, and the woorde is the foundation of the church: and first is the foundation sure, before the building theron can be stedfast.

Chich.

I perceiue you mistake me. I speake of the knowledge of the Gospell, and not of the authority: for by the church we hauehave all knowledge of the Gospell.

Phil.

I confesse that. For fayth commeth by hearing, and hearing by the worde.The word is the foundation of the Church and not the Church of the word. And I acknowledge that God appoynteth an ordinarye meanes for men to come vntounto the knowledge now, and not myraculously, as he hath done in times past: yet we that be taught by men must take heede that we learne nothing els but that which was taught in the Primitiue church by reuelation. Here came in the Byshop of Yorke, and the Bishop of Bath, and after they had saluted one another, and commoned a while together, the Archbishop of Yorke called me vntounto them, saying,

Yorke.

Syr, wee hearing that you are out of the way, are come of charity to enforme you, & to bring you into y^e true fayth, and to the catholicke church againe,Talke betweene the Archbish▪ of Yorke and Iohn Philpot. willing you first to hauehave humility, and to be humble & willing to learne of your betters: for els we can do no good with you. And god sayth by his Prophet: On whom shall I rest, but on the humble & meeke, and such as tremble at my word. Now if you will so be, we will be glad to trauell with you.

Phil.

I know that humility is the doore wherby we enter vntounto Christ, and I thanke his goodnes I hauehave entred in at the same vntounto him, & with all humility heare whatsoeuer truth you shall speake vntounto me.

Yorke.

What be the matters you stande on, and require to be satisfied in?

Phil.

My Lord, & it please your grace, we were entred into a good matter before you came, of the church and howe we should know the truth but by the church.

Yorke.

In deede that is the head, we neede to begynne at. For the church being truely knowne, we shal sooner agree in the particular thinges.

Phil.

If your Lordships can proue the church of Rome to be y^e true catholicke church it shall do much to persuade me toward that you would hauehave me encline vntounto.

Yorke.

Why, let vsus go to the definition of the church. What is it?

Phil.

It is a Congregation of people, dispersed throughe the worlde, agreeing together in the woorde of GOD,The Church defined. vsing the Sacramentes and al other thinges according to the same.

Yorke.

Your definition is of many wordes to no purpose.

Phil.

I do not precisely define the church, but declare vntounto you what I thinke the church is.

Yorke.

Is the church visible or inuisible?

Phil.

It is both visible and inuisible.The Church both visible and inuisible. The inuisible church is of all the electes of God onelyonly: the visible consisteth of both good and bad, vsing all thinges in fayth, according to Gods word.

Yorke.

The church is an vniuersall congregation of fayth full people in Christ through the world: which this worde Catholick doth well expresse: for what is Catholicke els?Catholicke defined by S. Austen. doth it not signify vniuersall?

Phil.

The church is defined by S. Austine to be called Catholike p. 1825in this wyse: Ecclesia ideo dicitur Catholica, quia vniuersaliter perfecta est & in nullo claudicat: The Church is called therefore Catholike, because it is throughly perfect, and halteth in nothyng.

Yorke.

Nay, it is called Catholike, because it is vniuersally receyued of all christian nations for the most part.Catholicke defined by the Papistes.

Ph…lpot.

The Churche was Catholique in the Apostles tyme: yet was it not vniuersally receyued of the worlde: but because their Doctrine whiche they had receyued of Christ, was perfect, and appoynted to be preached and receyued of the whole world, therfore it is called the Catholike fayth, and all persons receiuyng the same, to be counted the catholike church. And S. Austine in another place writeth, that the catholike church is that which beleeueth aright.

Yorke.

If you wyll learne, I wyll shewe you by Saint Austine,Vniuersalitye & Succession. writing agaynst the Donatistes, that he prooueth the catholick Church by two principall pointes, which is, vniuersality and succession of Bishops in one Apostolical Sea from time to time. Now thus I will make myne argument.

This consequent being reduced into a Syllogisme of the first figure, will ground vponupon a false Maior. Ergo, Da- Vniuersalitye and Succession make a true Church. ri- The Churche of Rome hath vniuersall succession. j. Ergo, the Church of Rome is the true Church▪The Church of Rome is vniuersal, and hath her succession of bishops from time to time.

Ergo, it is the Catholicke Church.

How answer… you to this argumēt?

Phil.

I denye the antecedent, that the Catholique Churche is onelyonly knowne by vniuersality, and succession of Byshops.

Yorke.

I will prooue it. And with that he brought forth a booke which he had noted out of the Doctours, and turned to his common places therin of the church, and recited one or two out of S. Austine, & specially out of his Epistle written agaynst the Donatistes, where S. Austine manifestly **To this is sufficiently aunswered …efore, pag. 1980. looke in the latter end of the 11. examination. Vniuersalitye alwayes to be ioyned with Veritye.proueth, that the Donatistes were not the catholick church, because they had no successiō of bishops in their opinion, neither vniuersality: & the same force hath S. Austines argument agaynst you.

Phil.

My Lorde, I hauehave weighed the force of that Argument before now, & I perceiue it maketh nothing agaynst me, neither it commeth to your purpose. For I will stand to y^e triall of S. Austine for the approbatiō of the catholick Church, wherof I am. For S. Austin speaketh of vniuersality ioyned with verity, & of faythfull successours of Peter, before corruption came into the Church. And so if you can deduce your argumēt for the sea of Rome now, as S. Austin might do in his time, I woulde say it might bee of some force: otherwise not.

Yorke.

S. Austine proueth the Catholicke church **Not principally by your leaue my Lord.principally by succession of bishops, and therfore you vnderstād not S. Austen. For what, I pray you, was the opinion of the Donatistes, agaynst whom he wrote? Can you tell? What country were they of?

Phil.

They were a certayne sect of men, affirming among other heresies, that the dignity of the sacramentes depended vponupon the worthines of the Minister: so that if the minister were good, the sacraments which he ministred were auayleable or els not.

Chichest.

That was theyr error, and they had none other but that.The errour of the Donatistes. And he read another authority of S. Austen out of a booke, which he brought euen to the same purpose that the other was.

Phil.

I challenge saynt Austen to be with me throughly in this poynt, & wil stand to his iudgement, taking one place with an other.

Chich.

The church may be certayne and yet not tyed to one place.If you will not hauehave the Church to be certeine: I pray you by whom will you be iudged in matters of controuersy?

Phil.

I doe not deny the Churche to be certayne: but I denye that it is necessarily tyed to any place, longer then it abideth in the word, & for all controuersies the word ought to be iudge.

Chich.

But what if I take it one way, and you an other? how then?

Phil.

S. Austine sheweth a remedye for that, and willeth, quòd vnus locus per plura intelligi debeat: August. de doctrina christiana.That one place of the Scripture ought to be vnderstand by the moe.

Yorke.

How aunswere you to this argument?

Argument a … non suffici…nte et non total….Rome hath knowne succession of Bishoppes whiche your church hath not.

Ergo, that is the Catholick Church, and yours is not, because there is no suche succession can be proued for your Church.

Phil.

I denye (my Lorde) that succession of Bishoppes is an infallible point to know the church by: for there may be a succession of bishops knowne in a place,The Argument denyed. and yet there be no church, as at Antioche and at Hierusalem, and in other places, where y^e Apostles abode as well as at Rome. But if you put to the succession of bishops succession of doctrine withall (as S. Austen doth) I will graunt it to be a good proofe for the Catholick church:… but a locall successiō onelyonly is nothing vayleable.

Yorke.

You will hauehave no church then, I see well.

Phil.

Yes, my Lord, I acknowledge the catholicke church, as I am bound by my Creed: but I cannot acknowledge a false church for the true.

Chich.

Why, is there two catholicke churches then?

Phil.

No, I know there is but one catholicke Church, but there hauehave bene and be at this present, that take vpō them the name of Christ & of his church, which be not so in deed, as it is written: That there be that call themselues Apostles & be not so in deed, but the Synagogue of Sathan and lyers. Apoc. 2.Rev 2And now it is with vsus, as it was with the two women in Salomons time, whiche lay together,3. Reg. The m…ther … of … to the … man … tyme, … falsly … true mo…thers … from … and the one suppressed her childe, and afterward went about to challenge the true mothers childe.

Chich.

What a babling is here with you nowe? I see you lacke humilitye. You will goe aboute to teache, and not to learne.

Phil.

My lords, I must desire you to beare with my hasty speech: it is my infirmity of nature. All that I speake is to learne by. I would you did vnderstād all my mind, that I might be satisfied by you through better authority.

Chich.

My Lord, and it please your grace, turne the argument vponupon him, which you hauehave made, and let him shewe the succession of the Bishoppes of his Churche, as we can doe. How saye you, canne you shewe the succession of Byshops in your Church from time to time? I tell you, this argument trubled Doctour **So ye say now, when ye would geue him no leaue no… tyme when he was aliue to make his aunswere….Ridley so sore, that he coulde neuer answere it: yet he was a man well learned, I dare say you will say so.

Phil.

He was a man so learned, that I was not woorthye to cary his bookes for learning.

Chich.

I promise you he was neuer able to aunswere that. He was a man that I loued well, and he me: for he came vntounto me diuers times being in prison, and conferred with me.

Phil.

I wonder, my Lord, you should make this argumēt which you would turne vponupon me, for the trial of my churche whereof I am, or that you would make bishop Ridley so ignoraunt that he was not able to aunswere it, since it is of no force. For behold, first I denyed you that local succession of Bishops in one place, is a necessary poynt alone to proue the Catholicke church by, and that which I hauehave denyed, you can not proue:Succession of Bishop… alone is …o sufficient poynt to proue the Catholicke Church. and is it then reason that you should put me to the triall of that, which by you is vnproued, and of no force to conclude agaynst me.

Chich.

I see, my Lordes, we doe but loose our labours to reason with him: he taketh himselfe better learned then wee.

Phil.

I take vponupon me the name of no learning? I boaste of no knowledge, but of fayth & of Christ, & that I am bound vndoubtedly to know, as I am sure I do.

Chich.

These hereticks take vpō thē to be sure of al things they stād in. You should say rather with humility, I trust I know Christ, then that you be sure therof.Leaue your reuiling termes, … Lord … goe to the matter. Note how these men groūd their fayth not vponupon Gods word, but vponupon the determination of their owne knowne Church.

Phil.

Let hym doubte of his fayth that listeth: God geue me alwayes grace to beleue that I am sure of true fayth & fauour in Christ.

Bath.

How will you be able to answere heretickes, but by the determination of the knowne Catholicke church?

Phil.

I am able to answere all heretickes by the woord of God and conuince them by the same.

Chich.

Howe arrogantlye is that spoken? I dare not say so.

Phil.

My Lord, I pray you beare with me: for I am bolde on the truth side, & I speake somewhat by experience that I hauehave had with hereticks: and I know the Arians be the subtlelest that euer were, & yet I hauehave manifest scriptures to beat them downe withall.

Chichester.

I perceiue nowe you are the same manner of man I hauehave heard of, whiche will not be satisfied by learning.

Phil.

Alas, my Lord, why do you say so? I do desire moste humbly to be taught, if there be any better way y^t I should learne: and hitherto you hauehave shewed me no bett…r: therefore I praye your Lordshippe not to misiudge without a cause.

Bath.

If you be the true Catholicke church, then will you hold with the real presence of Christ in y^e sacrament, which the true church hath euer mainteined.

Phil.

And I my Lord, with the true Churche doe holde the same in the due ministration of the sacrament: but I desire you, my Lord, there may be made a better conclusiō in our first matter, before we enter into any other: for if y^e Church p. 1826be proued, we shall soone agree in the rest. In the meane while my Lorde of Yorke was turning his booke for moe places to helpe forth his cause.

Yorke.

My Lord of … dri…e… to seeke … bookes. August de implicitate …edendi. …. Philpot … rep…ted to …. … Poyntes … proue … Catho…cke church … of S. Austen. 1. Consent of al natiōs. 2. Sea Apo…licall. 3. Vniuersalitye. 4. Catholicke▪ Aunswere to the Archbishops 4. poyntes.I hauehave found at length a very notable place, which I hauehave looked for all this while, of S. Austine De simplicitate credendi.

Chich.

It is but folly (my Lorde) that your Grace doe read him any moe places, for he esteemeth them not.

Phil.

I esteeme them, in as muche as they bee of force: as your Lordship doth heare me deny no doctors you bring, but onelyonly require the true application of them, according to the writers meaning, & as by his owne wordes may be proued.

Yorke.

I will reade him the place, and so make an end. After he had read the sentence▪ he sayde, that by foure speciall poynts here S. Austine proueth the catholick church. The first is, by the consent of all nations, the secōd, by the Apostolick Sea, the third, by vniuersalitie, & the fourth, by this word Catholicke.

Chich.

That is a notable place in deede▪ and it please your Grace.

Phil.

I pray you, my Lord, of what church doth S. Austine write the same, of Rome, or not?

Yorke.

Yea, he writeth it of the Church of Rome.

Phil.

I will lay with your Lordshippe as much as I can make, it is not so▪ and let the booke be sene.

Bath.

What art thou able to lay, that hast nothing.

Yorke

Doth he not make mention here of the Apostolicke sea, whereby he meaneth Rome?

Phil.

That is very straitly interpreted my lord, as though the Apostolicke Sea had bene no where els but at Rome. But let it be Rome, and yet shall you neuer verify y^e same, vnlesse all the other conditions do go therewith as S. Augustine doth proceed withal, wherof none except the Apostolicke sea can now bee verified of the Churche of Rome. For the fayth which that Sea now maynteineth hath not the consent of al nations neither hath had. Besides that, it cannot hauehave the name of Catholick, because it differeth frō the Catholicke Churches which the Apostles planted, almost in all thinges.

Yorke.

Nay, he goeth about here to proue the Catholicke Church by vniuersality:Christes church ceaseth not … his Church albeit … tyme of persecution i… be hid sometime in corners. First aunswere to his reason▪ and … him ob…tinate …terward. & how can you shew your church to be vniuersall fifty, or an hundreth yeares ago?

Phil.

That is not materiall, neither any thing agaynst S. Augustine. For my church (wherof I am) were to be coū ted vniuersal, though it were but in x. persōs, because it agreeth w^t the same that the Apostles vniuersally did plant.

Yorke.

I perceiue you are an obstinate man in your opinion, & will not be taught: wherefore it is but lost labour to talke with you any lenger: you are a member to be cut of.

Chichester.

I hauehave heard of you before how you troubled the good Bishop of Winchester, and now I see in you that I hauehave heard.

Phil.

I trust you see no euill in me by this. I desire of you a sure ground to build my fayth on, & if you shew ne none, I pray you speake not ill of him that meaneth well.

Chichester.

Thou art as **Because … Lord, … be not … to aunswere him.impudent a felow as I hauehave cō muned withall.

Phil.

That is spoken vncharitably my Lord, to blaspheme him whom you can not iustly reproue.

Chich.

Why, you are not God. Blasphemy is counted a rebuke to Godward, and not to man.

Phil.

Yes, it may be as well verified of an infamy layde to man speaking in Gods cause, as you now do lay vntounto me for speaking freely the truth afore GOD, to maynteyne your vayne Religion. You are voyd of all good ground. I perceiue you are blind guides and leaders of the blinde, & therfore (as I am bounde to tell you) very hipocrites, tyrannously persecuting the trueth, which otherwise by iust order you are able to conuince by no meanes. Your owne doctors and testimonies which you bring, be euidently agaynst you, and yet you will not see the truth.

Chichest.

…HaueHave we this thanke for our good will comming to instruct thee?

Phil.

My Lordes, you must beare with me, since I speake in Christes cause:… and because his glory is defaced, and his people cruelly and wrongfully slayne by you, because they will not consent to the dishonor of God, and to hypocrisie with you. If I told you not your fault it should be required at my hands in the day of iudgement. Therfore know you (ye hypocrites in deed) that it is the spirit of God that telleth you your sinne, & not I. I passe not (I thank God) of al your cruelty. God forgeue it you, & geue you grace to repent. And so they departed.

¶An other talke the same day.

THe same day at night before supper, the bishop sent for me into his chappell in the presence of y^e archdeacon Harpesfield, Doctor Chadsey, & other his Chapleines,Anot… … of M. Phil… before …he …ishop. and his seruauntes: at what time he sayd.

Lond.

Maister Philpot, I hauehave by sundry meanes gone about to do you good, and I maruell you do so litle consider it: by my trueth I can not tell what to say to you. Tell me directly, whether you will be a conformable man or no, & wherupon you chiefly stand.

Phil.

I hauehave tolde your Lordships oftentimes playne enough, wheron I stand chiefly, requiring a sure probation of the Church wherunto you call me.

Harps.

S. Austen writing agaynst the Donatistes, declareth foure speciall notes to know the Church by:Concerning these 4. poynt aunswered suf…ficiently befo…. the cōsent of many nations, the fayth of the Sacramentes confirmed by antiquity, succession of Bishops, and vniuersality.

Lond.

I pray you Mayster Archdeacon, fette the booke hither: it is a notable place, let him see it. And the booke was brought and the bishop read it, demaunding how I could aunswere the same.

Phil.

My Lorde, I like S. Austens foure poyntes for the triall of the catholicke churche, whereof I am: for it can abide eueryevery poynt therof together, which yours can not do.

Harps.

HaueHave not we succession of Bishops in the Sea and church of Rome? Wherfore then do you deny our Church to be the catholicke church?

Phil.

D. Austine doth not put succession of Bishops onelyonly to be sufficient, but he addeth the vse of the Sacramentes according to antiquity and doctrine vniuersally taughte & receiued of most nations from the beginning of the primatiue Church, the whiche your Churche is farre from. But my church can auouch all these better then yours: therfore by S. Austins iudgement which you here bring, mine is the catholicke church, and not yours.

Harps. Chad.

It is but folly (my Lord) for you to reason w^t him, for he is irrecuperable.It is best for you to lay so, when you hauehave no other way to shift of his Argumentes.

Phil.

That is a good shift for you to runne vntounto, when you be confounded in your owne sayinges, & hauehave nothing else to say: you are euidently deceiued, and yet will not see it when it is layd to your face.

THus hauehave I at large set forth, as many of y^e sayd Iohn Philpot his examinations & priuy conferences, as are yet come to light, being faythfully written with his owne hand. And although he was diuers other times, after this examined, both openly in the Consistory at Paules, & also secretly in the bishops house: yet, what was there sayd, is not yet sufficiently knowne, either because M. Philpot was not himselfe suffered to write, or els for that his writings are by some kept close, and not brought forth otherwise thē as the bishops Register hath noted, whose handling of such matters, because it is (either for feare or for fauor of his Lord and maister) very slender, litle light of any true & right meaning can be gathered, especially in the behalfe of the answerer. Howbeit such as it is, such thought I good to put forth requiring the reader to iudge hereof according to his aunsweres in his former examinations.