Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 11 · Account 14 · Examination 2
¶Maister Latimer appeareth before the Commissioners.
NOw after M. Ridley was committed to the Maior, then the Bishop of Lincolne commaunded the Bailyffes to bring in the other prisoner,M Latimer … the …. who eftsoones as he was placed, sayd to the Lordes.
Lati.
My Lordes, if I appeare agayne, I pray you not to sende for mee vntyll you bee ready. For I am an olde man, and it is great hurt to myne olde age to tary so long gazyng vponupon the colde walles. Then the Byshop of Lincolne sayd:
Linc.
M. Latimer, I am sory you are brought so soone, although it is the Bailyffes fault, and not myne: but it shall be amended.
Then Master Latimer bowed his knee downe to the ground,The order of M. Lati… …. holdyng his Hat in his hand, hauing a kerchefe on his hed, and vponupon it a night cap or two, and a great cap (such as Townes men vse, with two broad flaps to butten vnderunder the chin) wearyng an olde thred bare Bristowe fryse gowne gyrded to his body with a peny leather gyrdell, at the which hanged by a long string of leather his Testament, and his spectacles without case, depending about his necke vponupon his brest. After this the Byshop of Lincolne began on this maner:
Linc.
M. Latimer, you shall vnderstande that I and my Lordes here hauehave a Commission from my Lord Cardinall Poles Grace Legate a latere, The oratiō … Lincolne … M. Latimer.to this Realme of England, from our moste reuerent father in God the Popes holynesse, to examyne you vponupon certayne opinions and assertions of yours, whiche you as well here openly in disputations in the yeare of our Lorde. 1554. as at sundry and diuers other tymes dyd affyrme, mayntayne, and obstinately defende. In the whiche Commission be especially two poyntes: the one whiche we muste desire you is, that if you shall nowe recant, reuoke, and disanull these your errours, and togeather with all this Realme, yea all the worlde confesse the trueth, we vppon due repentance of your part should receiue you, reconcile you, acknowledge you no longer a strayed sheepe, but adioyne you agayne to the vnitie of Christes Church, from the which you in the time of schisme fell: So that it is no new place to the which I exhort you: I desire you but to returne thyther from whence you went.
Consider M. Latimer, that without the vnitie of the Church is no saluation,But this Church … standing on the truth of Gods word, … the … of man. and in the Church can be no erroures. Therefore what shoulde stay you to confesse that whiche all the Realme confesseth to forsake that whiche the Kyng and Queene their Maiesties hauehave renounced and all the Realme recanted: it was a common errour, and it is nowe of all confessed: it shall be no more shame to you, then it was to vsus all. Consider M. Latimer, that within these .xx. yeares this Realme also with all the worlde confesseth one Church, acknowledged in Christes Church an head, and by what meanes and for what occasion it cut of it self from the rest of Christianitie, it renounced that whiche in all tymes and ages was confessed, it is well knowen,How you … the …, your owne actes can beare witnes. and might be now declared vppon what good foundation the sea of Rome was forsaken, saue that wee must spare them that are dead, to whom the rehearsall woulde be opprobrious: it is no vsurped power as it hath bene termed, but founded vppon Peter by Christe, a lure foundation, a perfect builder, as by diuers places as well of the auncient fathers as the expresse worde of God,The Popes authoritye. may be proued.
With that M. Latimer, which before leaned his head to his hand, began somewhat to remoue his cap and kerchef from his eares.
The Byshoppe proceeded saying: for Christe spake expresly to Peter saying,… pasce oues meas, & rege oues meas, the whiche worde doth not onelyonly declare a certayne rulyng of Christes flocke, but includeth also a certayne preeminence and gouernment, and therefore is the king called Rex à regendo: so that in saying rege, Christe declared a power whiche he gaue to Peter, whiche iurisdiction and power Peter by hand deliuered to Clement, and so in all ages hath it remayned in the sea of Rome. This if you shall confesse with vsus, & acknowledge with all the realme your errours and false assertions, then shall you doe that whiche we most desire, then shall we rest vppon the first part of our Commission, then shall we receiue you, acknowledge you one of the Churche, and according to the authoritie geuen vntounto vsus,… Latimer. minister vntounto you vponupon due repentaunce, the benefite of absolution, to the whiche the Kyng and Queene their Maiesties were not ashamed to submit them selues, although they of them selues were vnspotted, and therefore needed no reconciliation, yet lest the putrification and rottennesse of all the body myght be noysome, and do damage to the head also, they (as I sayd) most humbly submitted them selues to my Lorde Cardinall his grace, by hym, as Legate to the Popes holynes, to bee partakers of the reconciliation: but if you shall stubburnely perseuer in your blindnes, if you wyll not acknowledge your errours, if you as you stande nowe alone, wyll be singular in your opinions, if by schisme and heresie you wyll styll diuide your selfe from our Churche, then must wee proceede to the seconde part of the Commission, which we would be loth to do, that is, not to condemne you, for that wee can not doe (that the temporall sworde of the Realme, and *Qui tradid… runt metio…naius pecca…m habent, sayth Christ.not wee will do) but to separate you from vsus, acknowledge you to be none of vsus, to renounce you as no member of the Churche, to declare that you are filius perditionis, a lost chylde, and as you are a rotten member of the Churche, so to cut you of from the Church, and so to commit you to the temporall Iudges, permittyng them to proceede agaynst you, accordyng to the tenor of their lawes.
Therefore M. Latimer,Perswasions vsed to M. Latimer … to the vnitye of the Popes Church. for Gods louelove consider your estate, remember you are a learned man, you hauehave taken degrees in the Schole, borne the office of a Byshop, remember you are an olde man, spare your body, accelerate not your death, & especially remember your soules health, quiet of your conscience, consyder that if you shoulde dye in this state, you shall be a stinkyng sacrifice to God: for it is the cause that maketh the Martyr, and not the death: consyder that if you dye in this state, you dye without grace, for without the Churche can be no saluation.Reasons to perswade the flesh, but not … con…cience. Let not vayne glory hauehave the vpper hande, humiliate your selfe, captiuate your vnderstandyng, subdue your reason, submit your selfe to the determination of the Churche, doe not force vsus to doe all that we may doe, let vsus rest in that parte whiche wee most hartely desyre, and I, for my part, (then the Byshop put of his cap) agayne with all my hart exhort you.
After the Byshop had somewhat paused, then M. Latimer lift vp his head (for before he leaned on his elbowe) and asked whether his Lordshyp had sayd: and the Byshop answered yea.
Lati.
Then will your Lordship geue me leaue to speake a worde o… two?
Linc
Yea M. Latimer, so that you vse a modest kynd of talke, without raysing or tauntes.
Lati.
I beseech your Lordshyp, licence me to sit downe.M. Latimer hath leaue to sit downe. Answere of M. Latimer to the B. of Lincolne.
Linc.
At your pleasure M. Latimer, take as much ease as you wyll.
Lati.
Your Lordshyppe gentlye exhorted mee in manye woordes, to come to the vnitie of the Churche. I confesse (my Lorde) a Catholicke Churche, spread throughout all the worlde, in the whiche no man may erre, without the whiche vnitie of the Churche no man can be saued:The vniuersall Church hath not his foundation onelyonly in Rome. …rg…ment. Christ bad Peter regere, gouerne his pe… ple. Ergo, the Pope … Rex, to reigne … Kinges and Emperours. but I knowe perfectly by Gods woorde that this Churche is in all the worlde, and hath not his foundation in Rome only, as you say, and me thought your Lordshyp brought a place out of the Scriptures to confirme the same, that there was a iurisdiction geuen to Peter, in that Christe bad hym regere, gouerne his people. In deede my Lord, sainct Peter did well and truely his office, in that he was byd regere: but since the Byshoppes of Rome hauehave taken a new kynd of regere. In deede they ought to regere, but how my Lord? not as they will them selues: but this regere must be hedged in, and digged in. They must regere, but secundum verbum dei: they must rule, but accordyng to the worde of God.
But the Byshops of Rome hauehave turned regere secundum verbum dei, into regere secundum voluntatem suam: Regere … to regere … voluntatē. Deut. 21.they hauehave turned the rule accordyng to the woorde of GOD into the rule accordyng to their owne pleasures, and as it pleaseth them best: as there is a booke set foorth whiche hath diuers poyntes in it, and amongest other, this poynt is one, whiche your Lordshyppe went about to proue by this woorde regere, and the argument whiche he bryngeth foorth for the proofe of that matter, is taken out of Deuteronomie, where it is sayde: if there ryseth anye controuersie amonge the people, the Priestes Leuitici generis, of the order of Leuiticus shall decide the matter secundum legem dei, accordyng to the lawe of GOD: so it muste be taken. This booke perceyuing this authoritie to be geuen to the Priestes of the olde lawe, taketh occasion to proue the same to be geuen to the Byshops and other the Cleargy of the new law: but in prouyng this matter, where as it was sayde there, as the Priestes of the order of Leuiticus shoulde determine the matter accordyng to Gods law (that accordyng to Gods law) is left out, and onelyonly is recited: as the Priestes of the order of Leuiticus shall decide the matter,Cli…ping of Gods Scriptures by the Catholickes. so it ought to be taken of the people: a large authoritie I ensure you. What gelding of Scripture is this? what clippyng of Gods coyne? With the which termes the audience smiled. This is muche like the regere whiche your Lordshyp talked of. Nay, nay my Lordes, we may not geue such authoritie to the Clergie, to rule all thynges as they wyll. Let them keepe them selues within their commission. Now I trust my Lord▪ I do not rayle yet?
Linc.
No M. Latimer, your talke is more like tauntes then rayling: but in that I hauehave not red the booke which you blame so much, nor knowe not of any suche, I can say nothyng therein.
Lati.
Yes my Lorde, the booke is open to be red, and is intituled to one whiche is Bishop of Glocester,The author of this booke was D. Brookes, which there was in the commission. whom I neuer knew, neither did at any tyme see him to my knowledge. With that the people laughed, because the Byshop of Glocester sat there in commission.
Then the Byshop of Glocester stoode vp, and sayd it was his booke.
Lati.
Was it yours my Lorde? In deede I knewe not your Lordshyp, neither euer did see you before, neither yet see you now, through the brightnes of the Sunne shining betwixt you and me. Then the audience laughed agayne: and Maister Latimer spake vntounto them saying: Why my maisters, this is no laughyng matter, I aunsweare vppon lyfe and death. Vae vobis qui redetis nunc, quoniam flebitis.
The Byshoppe of Lincolne commaunded silence, and then sayde:
Linc.
M. Latimer, if you had kept your selfe within your boundes, if you had not vsed such scoffes and tauntes, this had not bene done.
Brookes B. of Glocester speaketh.After this the Byshop of Glocester sayde in excusing of his booke.
Gloc.
M. Latimer, hereby eueryevery man may see what learnyng you hauehave.
Then M. Latimer interrupted hym saying:
Lati.
Lo, you looke for learnyng at my handes, whiche hauehave gone so longe to the schole of obliuion, makynge the bare walles my Librarie, keepyng me so long in prison without booke or penne and inke: and nowe you let me lose to come and aunsweare to Articles. You deale with me as though two were appoynted to fyght for lyfe and death, and ouer nyght the one through friendes and fauour is cheryshed, & hath good counsayle geuen hym howe to encounter with his enemie. The other for enuye or lacke of friendes,The Catholicks how vnreasonable they are in their vsing of men. all the whole nyght is set in the stockes. In the mornyng when they shall meete, the one is in strength and lusty: the other is starke of his limmes, and almoste dead for feeblenes. Thynke you that to runne through this man with a speare is not a goodly victory?
But the Byshoppe of Glocester interruptyng his aunswere proceeded, saying:
Glo.
I went not about to recite any places of Scripture in that place of my booke:The Catholicks alleage the Scriptures but take not all. for then if I had not recited it faythfully, you myght hauehave had iust occasion of reprehention: but I only in that place formed an argument á maior…, in this sense: that if in the olde lawe the Priestes had power to decide matters of controuersies, muche more then ought the authoritie to be geuen to the clergy in the new law: and I pray you in this poynt what auayleth the rehersall, secundum legem dei.
Lati.
Yes my Lorde, very muche. For I acknowledge authoritie to be geuen to the spiritualtie to decide matter of Religion, and, as my Lord sayd euen nowe, to regere: but they must do it secundum verbum dei, and not secundum voluntatem suam, according to the worde and lawe of God, and not after their owne will, after their owne imaginations and fantasies.
The Byshop of Glocester woulde hauehave spoken more, sauyng that the Byshop of Lincolne sayde, that they came not to dispute with M. Latimer, but to take his determinate aunsweres to their Articles, and so began to propose the same Articles whiche were proposed to M. Ridley. But M. Latimer interrupted him, speaking to the bishop of Glocester: well my Lord, I could wish more faythfull dealyng with Gods woorde, and not to leaue out a part, and snatche a part here and an other there, but to rehearse the whole faythfully.
But the Byshoppe of Lincolne not attendyng to this saying of Maister Latimer,The protestatiō of M. Latimer. proceeded in rehearsing the Articles in forme and sense as I declared before in the examination of the Articles proposed to Maister Ridley, and requyred Maister Latimers aunswere the fyrst. Then Maister Latimer makyng his protestation, that notwithstandyng these his aunsweres it shoulde not bee taken that thereby he would acknowledge any authoritie of the Byshoppe of Rome, saying that he was the Kyng and Queene their Maiesties subiecte and not the Popes, neyther coulde serue two maisters at one tyme, except he should first renounce one of them: required the Notaries so to take his protestation, that what soeuer hee shoulde saye or do, it shoulde not be taken as though he did thereby agree to any authoritie that came from the Byshop of Rome.
Linc.
The Byshop of Lincolne sayd, that his protestation shoulde be so taken:1. Article. but he required him to aunsweare briefly affirmatiuely, or negatiuely to the first Article, and so recited the same agayne: and Maister Latimer aunswered as foloweth.
Lati.
I doe not deny (my Lorde) that in the Sacrament by spirite and grace is the very body and bloud of Christ,The body of Christ in the Sacrament receiued by spirite & grace. because that eueryevery man by receiuyng bodylye that bread and wine, spiritually receyueth the body and bloud of Christe, and is made partaker thereby of the merites of Christes Passion: but I denye that the body and bloud of Christe is in such sort in the Sacrament as you woulde hauehave it.
Linc.
Then Maister Latimer, you aunsweare affirmatiuely.
Lati.
Yea, if you meane of that grosse and carnall beyng,M. Latymer agaynst the grosse and carnall being of christ in the Sacrament. 2. Article. What chaunge is in the bread and wine in the Sacrament, not in the nature but in the dignitye of representing. which you do take.
The Notaries tooke his aunsweares to bee affirmatiuely.
Linc.
What say you Maister Latimer to the seconde Article? and recited the same.
Lati.
There is, my Lorde, a chaunge in the bread and wine, and suche a chaunge as no power, but the omnipotencie of GOD can make, in that that whiche before was bread, shoulde nowe hauehave that dignitie to exhibite Christes body, & yet the bread is still bread, and the wine still wine: for the chaunge is not in the nature, but in the dignitie, because nowe that whiche was common bread hath the dignitie to exhibite Christes body, for where as it was common bread, it is nowe no more common bread, neither ought it it to be so taken, but as holy bread sanctified by Gods worde.
With that the Byshop of Lincolne smyled, saying:
Linc.
Lo Maister Latimer, see what stedfastnesse is in your doctrine: That whiche you abhorred and despised moste, you now most establyshe: for where as you moste rayled at holy bread, you nowe make your communion holy bread.
Lati.
Tush, a rushe for holy bread. I say the bread in the communion is an holy bread in deede.
But the Byshoppe of Lincolne interrupted hym and sayde.
Linc.
O, you make a difference betwene holy bread,Substance of bread & wine in the Sacrament vnchanged. and holy bread (with that the audience laughed.) Well maister Latimer, is not this your aunsweare, that the sustaunce of bread and wine remayneth after the wordes of consecration?
Lati.
Yes verely, it must nedes bee so, for Christ him selfe calleth it bread, Saint Paul calleth it bread, the Doctours confesseth the same, the nature of a Sacrament confirmeth the same, and I call it holy bread,Difference betweene Christs holy bread & the Popes holy bread. not in that I make no difference betwixt your holy bread & this, but for the holy office whiche it beareth, that is, to be a figure of Christes body, and not onelyonly a bare figure, but effectually to represent the same.
So the Notaries penned his aunsweare to be affirmatiuely.
Linc.
What say you to the third question?3. Article. and recited the same.
Lati.
No, no my Lorde, Christe made one perfect Sacrifice for all the whole world, neither can any man offer him agayne, neither can the Priest offer vp Christe agayne for the sinnes of man, which he tooke away by offeryng hym selfe once for all (as Saint Paul sayth) vppon the crosse, neither is there any propitiation for our sinnes, sauyng his crosse onelyonly.
So the Notaries penned his aunswere to this Article also to be affirmatiuely.
Linc.
What say you to the fourth Maister Latimer? and recited it. After the recitall whereof,4. Article. when Maister Latimer aunsweared not, the Byshop asked hym whether he heard him or no?
Lati.
Yes, but I doe not vnderstande what you meane thereby.
Linc.
Mary onelyonly this, that these your assertions were condemned by M. Doctor Weston as heresies: is it not so M. Latimer?
Lati.
Yes, I thinke they were condemned. But how vniustly, he that shall be iudge of all knoweth.
So the Notaries tooke his aunswere, to this Article also to be affirmatiuely.
Linc.
What say you M. Latimer to the v. Article? and recited it.…. Article.
Lati.
I knowe not what you meane by these termes. I am no Lawyer: I would you would propose the matter plainely.
Linc.
In that we proceede accordyng to the lawe, we muste vse their termes also. The meanyng onelyonly is this, that these your assertions are notorious, euill spoken of, and yet common and recent in the mouthes of the people.
Lati.
I can not tell howe muche nor what men talke of them. I come not so muche among them, in that I hauehave bene secluded a long tyme. What men report of them I knowe not, nor care not.
This aunswere taken, the Bishop of Lincolne sayd:
Linc.
M. Latimer, we meane not that these your aunsweres shalbe preiudiciall to you.… To morowe you shall appeare before vsus againe, and then it shalbe lawfull for you to alter and chaunge what you wyll. We geue you respite till to morowe, trustyng that after you hauehave pondered well all thynges against to morowe, you wyll not be ashamed to confesse the truth.
Lati.
Now my Lord I pray you geue me licence in three wordes to declare the causes why I hauehave refused the authoritie of the Pope.
Linc.
Nay M. Latimer, to morowe you shall hauehave lycence to speake xl. wordes.
Lati.
Nay my Lords, I beseech you to do with me now as it shall please your Lordships: I pray you let not me be troubled to morow agayne.
Linc.
Yes M. Latimer, you must needes appeare againe to morowe.
Lati.
Truely my Lorde, as for my part I require no respite, for I am at a poynt: you shall geue me respite in vayne: Therefore I pray you let not me trouble you to morowe.
Linc
Yes, for wee trust God wyll woorke with you agaynst to morowe. There is no remedy, you must needes appeare agayne to morowe at eight of the clocke in sainct Maries Church. And forthwith the Bishop charged the Maior with M. Latimer, & dismissed him, and then brake vp their Session for that day, about one of the clocke at after noone.