Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 12 · Account 135
*The order of the second dayes talke. ¶The Lord keeper of the great Seale, the Archbyshop of Yorke, the Duke of Northfolke, and all the Counsell being set, the Byshops on the one side, and the Protestantes, that is, the late banished Preachers on the other side, thus beganne the Lord Keeper.
MY Lords and maisters, I am sure ye remember well, what order of talke and writing was appoynted to be had this day in this assembly,The second dayes talke. at our last meeting, whiche I will not refuse now to repeat agayne for the shortnes of it, which was that ye appoynted here on both sides should bring in english writing, what ye had to say in the second question, and in this place appoynted to reade the same. Therfore begin my Lordes.
Winchester.
I am determined for my part that there shall be now red, that which we hauehave to say for the first questiō.
L. Keper.
Will ye not then proceede in the order appoynted you?
Winch.
I am, as I sayd prouided for the first question or proposition: and we should suffer preiudice if ye permit vsus not to intreat of that first, and so we would come to the second questiō, and this is the order we would vse. I iudge all my brethren are so minded.
Bishops.
We are so determined.
L. Keper.
I know not what you would do for your determined order: but ye ought to looke, what order is appointed you to keepe, which ye by this meanes doe breake and litle regard.
Winch.
Sith our aduersaryes part, if it please your Grace and honours, hauehave so confirmed theyr affection and purpose, we suffer a preiudice or domage, if ye permit vsus not the like. Hereat Doctour Watson bishop of Lincolne being at this talke very desirous to hauehave spoken, sayd nowe to the Bishop of Winchester. I pray you let me speake, which was permitted him, we are not vsed indifferently, sithen that you allowe vsus not to open in present writyng what we hauehave to say for the declaration of the first question, in so much, as that whiche ye take for the infirmation of the same, was meant nothing to that purpose, for that which Mayster Cole spake in this last assembly, was not prepared to strengthen our case, but he made his Oration of himselfe, and ex tempore, that is, with no forestudyed talke.
At such the Bishops wordes, the Nobility and other of the audience muche frowned and grudged at, sith that they well knew that Maister Cole spake out of a writing which he held in his hand, and often read out of the same, & in that the same places which the Bishop informed him and appoynted him vntounto with theyr fingers, all whyche thinges doe well declare the matter to bee premeditate, and not done ex tempore, for that Mayster Cole was appoynted by them to be theyr speaker. Whereupon this, the bishop of Lincolne was the worse takē, notwithstanding he went onward complayning & sayd: we are also euil ordered as touching the time, our aduersaries part hauing warning long before, & we were warned only two dayes before the last assembly in this place. What with this busines & other trouble, we hauehave bene driuen to hauehave bene occupyed the whole last night. For we may in no wise betray the case of God, nor will not doe, but susteine it to the vttermost of our powers, as we ought so to endeuour by all maner of meanes. But hereunto we want presētly indifferent vsing.
L. Keper.
Take ye heede that yee deceiue not your selues when it shall come to iust triall of the matter, and that thē it be not proued agaynst you, that ye complayne without cause when the order and your maner towardes it shalbe duely wayed. I am willing and ready to heare you after the order taken and appoynted for you to reason therein, and farther or contrary to that I cannot deale with you.
Lich. Cou.
Let vsus suffer no misorder or iniury herein, but be hea…d with indifference, that is to say: conuenient and meet we should hauehave here.
L. Keper.
I praye you Syrs heare me, and marke it you well. It was concluded on by my Lordes of the counsell, who you wel know of, that theyr writing, whiche ye are now so willing to hauehave heard, should hauehave bene read the first day, and then did we vnderstande that Mayster Cole had sayd what you would hauehave him, and as much as you willed him to say, and vponupon that indifferency emonges, I iudge ye were asked in the ende of Mayster Coles rehersall, whether that whiche he spake, was it ye woulde hauehave him say, and ye graunted it. Then whether ye would that he shuld say any more in ye matter. Ye answered no, wherupon the other part was hard, which you hearing then in deede without all good indifferencie or playne dealing, ye pretended that ye had more to saye. So marke you wyth how small equitie you vsed your selfe.
The B.
We had in deede more to say, if we might hauehave bene indifferently heard.
L. Keeper.
Geue me leaue I saye, and looke what gaynes you should hauehave if your present request should be granted you: that call so muche of indifferent vsing, howe you shoulde vse those other men. For many who are here presently, were then away, so would you hauehave your writyng now red to them, whiche heard not this. Marke ye whether it had not bene more fit that ye had prouided it against the first day, when they orderly read theyrs, sith to my knowledge, and as farre as I hauehave hadde to doe in the matter, you were of both sides (I am sure) warned at one tyme. Howbeit to satisfy your importunacie and earnestnes of this crying out to hauehave your first writing heard, I might well allow, if it so pleased the rest of the Queenes most honorable Counsell, that you dispatching the worke on the second question, appoynted for this daye, and geue vsus vp your writing for the first, so that when the daye commeth that each of you shall aunswer the other in confirmation of the first question, that then the same daye ye shall hauehave time to read this your first writing, whiche ye now would so fayne read. To this order all the Counsel willingly condescended.
Lich Co.
Nay my Lordes, they reading one, and we two bookes in one day, wee shoulde not hauehave time enough to read them both. It would occupy to much time.
L. Keeper.
For my part I might well stay at the hearing of them both, and I iudge the rest of the Counsell, and lykewise the whole audience. At whiche saying there was a shoute crying on all sides: yea, yea, wee woulde heare it gladly.
Lincolne.
We cannot read them both at one time: for theyr writing (I am sure) would require an houre and a halfe, if so be it be so long as theyr laste was, and then our aunswere woulde require no lesse time after the fyrste question.
L. Keeper.
I hauehave shewed you we could be well contented to tary out the time when it commeth thereunto. Therefore ye neede not to be therein so curious, and wee graunting you thus muche, and yet ye will obey no orders, I cannot tell what I shall say vntounto you.
Lincoln.
We hauehave bene wonderfully troubled in the order of this disputation. For first it was appoynted vsus by my Lord the Archbishop that we shoulde dispute, and that in Latine, and then had wee an other commaundement that we should prouide a Latine writing, and nowe at last we willed to bring forth our writinges in english.
At these wordes the Lord keeper of the great seale, the Archbishop, with all the Counsell muche mused, and many murmured at such his wrong report of the order well taken. Whereupon with an admiration the Lorde keeper aunswered: I maruaile much of the vsing of your selfe in this poynt, sith I am assured the order was neuer otherwise taken then that you shoulde bring forth in Englishe writing what you had to say for your purpose.
Hereupon the Byshops of Lichfield and Chichester, to excuse my Lord of Lincolne, sayd: we so vnderstood the order, my Lordes.
L. Keeper
Howe likely is that, sith that it was so playnely told you? But to end these delayes, I pray you follow the order appoynted, and beginne to entreate of the seconde question.
Lich. Co.
We were appoynted this day by youre honours to bring in what we had to say in the first question.
At the which saying the audience much grudged, who heard the former talke, contrary to such his reporte.
L. Keeper.
The order was taken, for that your writinges were not ready the last time that ye shoulde yeld the same to these men, meaning the Protestantes, as soone as ye might, and vponupon the receipt of your writinges, you shuld hauehave theyrs, and this day ye should entreate of the second question, and of the thyrd, if that ye had leysure enoughe. This was the order my Lordes, except my memory much fayle me. The same all the Counsell affirmed.
Lincoln.
We were willed then to bring in this daye oure writing for the first question also.
Lorde Keeper.
Ah syrs, if ye bee so harde to bee satisfied, and to encline to the trueth, let my Lordes here say what was then determined.
B. Yorke.
Ye are to blame to stand in this issue, for there was a playne decreed order taken for you to intreat of the second Question. Wherefore leaue you your contention herein, and shew what ye hauehave to say in the second Question.
L. Keper.
Go to now, begin my Lordes.
Linc. Couen.
It is cōtrary to the order in disputatiōs that we should begin.
Chester.
We hauehave the negatiue: the affirmatiue therefore they must begin.
Lich. Couen·
They must first speake, what they can bring in agaynst vsus, sith that we are the defending part.
Chester.
So is the schole maner, and likewise the maner in Westminster hall is, that ye plaintifes part should speak first, and then the accused party to answere.
Lich. Couen.
I pray you let the proposition be read, & then let vsus see who hath the negatiue part, and so let the other begin.
L. Keper.
The order was taken that ye should begin.
Lich. Couen.
But then we should do agaynst the Schoole order.
L. Keper.
My maisters, ye inforce much the schole orders. I wonder muche at it, sith diuers of those orders are ofte times taken for the exercise of youth, and ought to mainteine a fashion and many prescriptions, whiche we neede not here to recite, much lesse obserue. We are come hither to keepe the order of God, and to set forth his truth & herevnto we hauehave taken as good order as we might, which lieth not in me to chaunge.
Carlile.
We are of the catholicke church, and abide therein, and stand in the possessions of the truth, and therfore must they say what they hauehave to answere against vsus, and so we to mainteine and defend our cause.
Lich. Couen.
Yea, euen so must the matter be ordered.
Chester.
When they bring any thing agaynst vsus, it is sufficient for vsus to deny it. Therfore must they begin.
Lich.
And when they affirme any thing, and we say naye, the proofe belongeth to them, and so it behoueth them to shew first what they affirme, and for what cause and purpose.
L. Keper.
Here resteth our purpose, & whole matter, whether you will begin, if they do not, sith it was determined ye should begin.
Lich. Couen.
We heard of no such order.
L. Keper.
No did? Yes, and in the first question ye beg…n willingly. How commeth it to passe that ye will not now do so?
Chester.
Then had we the affirmation, which sith that our aduersaries hauehave now, they should presently begin.
This the Protestantes denyed, saying that they in the first day had the negatiue, wherein they did not yet refuse to begin.
L. Keper.
If you hauehave any thing to say, my Lordes, to the purpose, say on.
Lich.
A particular sorte of men can neuer breake an Uniuersall Churche, which wee nowe mainteine: and as for these men, our Aduersary part, I neuer thought that they would hauehave done so much as hauehave named themselues to be of the catholicke Church, challenging the name as wel as we.
Protestantes.
We doe so, and we are of the true Catholicke church, and maynteyne the verity therof.
Lincolne.
Yet woulde ye ouerthrowe all Catholicke order.
Horne.
I wonder that ye so much stand in who shoulde begin.
Lincolne.
You count it requisite that we shoulde followe your orders, as we hauehave takē the question at your hands, in that sort as you hauehave assigned them.
Lich. Couen.
Yea, euen so are we driuen to do now.
L. Keper.
Nay, I iudge if ye marke the matter well, the questions are neither of their propounding them to you, nor of your deuise to them, but offred indifferently to you both.
Horne.
In deed my Lordes of the Queenes most honourable Counsell, these questions or propositions were proposed vntounto vsus by your honors, and they then hauing the preheminence, chose to themselues the negatiue, & yet frely began first: now agayne why do they not the like.
Liechfield being angred that he shoulde so straightlye speake agaynst them, went quite from the matter, saying: My Lord keeper of the great seale, and you the rest of the Queenes most honorable Counsel, I hope that you all, & the Queenes Maiesty her selfe, are inclined to fauour the verity in all thinges, & the truth of the catholicke church, which we must, will, or can do no otherwise, but earnestly maynteyne to the vttermost of our power, and to thys purpose let vsus now well way who are of the true Catholicke church, they or we.
L, Keeper.
Tary, now you goe from the matter, and make questions of your owne.
Lichfield.
Yet not straying from his digression, sayd thus: we must needes goe to worke, and trye that first, of what Church they be of. For there are many Churches in Germany. Mayster Horne, maister Horne, I pray you which of these Churches are you of?
Horne.
I am of Christes catholicke Church.
L. Keeper.
Ye ought not thus to runne into voluntary talk of your owne inuenting, nor to deuise newe questions of your owne appoyntment, and thereby enter into yt talke: ye ought not so to doe. But say on, if you hauehave anye thing to say in this matter.
Lich.
Nay, we must first thus go to worke with them as I hauehave sayd, if that we will search a truth: howbeit of the truth we hauehave no doubt, for that we assuredly stande in it. These men come in, and they pretend to bee doubtfull. Therefore they shoulde first bring what they hauehave to impugne or withstand vsus withall.
Winch.
Let them begin: so will we goe onward with our matter.
Chester.
Otherwise, my Lordes, if they should not begin, but end the talke, then shoulde the verity on our sides bee not so well marked, for they should depart speaking last, cum applausu populi, with the reioising triumph of the people.
Winch.
Therefore I am resolued that they shall begin or that we say any thing.
Chester.
I am sory my Lordes, that wee shoulde so longe stand in the matter, with your honours and make so many wordes, and so much adoe with you, whom we ought to obey: howbeit there is no indifferency if they begin not: and surely we thinke it meete, that they shoulde for theyr partes geue vsus place.
Lich.
Yea, that they shoulde and ought to doe where anye indifferencie is vsed.
Aelmer.
We giuegive you the place (do we not?) and depriue you not of the preeminence, because you are Byshoppes: therefore I pray you begin.
The Byshop.
A goodly geuing of place I assure you: yea marie ye gaue place, suche wordes they vsed, wyth more scoffes.
L. Keeper.
If ye make this assembly gathered in vayne, and will not go to the matter, let vsus rise and depart.
Winch.
Contented, let vsus be gone: for we will not in this poynt geue ouer.
I pray you my Lords, require not at our hands that we should be anye cause of hinderaunce or lett to our religion, or geue any such euil example to our posteritie, whiche we shoulde doe if we gaue ouer to them, whiche in no wise we may, or will do.
L. Keeper.
Let vsus then breake vp, if you bee thus minded. With these wordes the Bishoppes were strayght wayes rising. But then sayd the Lord keeper: let vsus see whether eueryevery one of you be thus minded. How say you my Lorde of Winchester, will you not begin to read your writing?
Winch.
No surely. I am full determined, and fully at a poynt therein, how soeuer my brethren do.
Then the Lord Keeper asked how the Bishoppe was called who sate next to Winchester in order. It was the Bishoppe of Exceter, who being enquired his mind herein, answered that he was none of thē. Thē the Lord Keeper asked the other in order, and first Lincolne, who sayde he was of the same minde that Winchester was of: & likewise answered Lichfield Couen. Cole and Chedsy. Then Chester being asked his sentence, sayd: My Lordes, I say not that I will not read it, if yee commaund vsus: but wee ought not to do it: yet I desire your honors not so to take it, as though I would not hauehave read it. I meane not so.
L. Keeper.
How say you to it: my Lord of Carlile?
Carlile.
If they should not read theyrs this daye, so that our writing may be last read, so am I contented that ours shall be first read.
L. Keeper.
So would ye make orders your selues, and appoynt that we should spend one day in hearing you.
Abbot.
Then ye Abbot of Westminst. was asked his mind who sayd: and if it please your honours, I iudge that my Lordes here stay most on this poynt, that they feare when they shall begin first, and the other aunswere thereupon, there shall be no time geuen to them to speake, whiche my Lord misliketh.
L. Keeper.
Howe can it otherwise be in a talke appoynted in such assembly and audience: thinke you that there can be continuall aunswering one another? when shoulde… after that sort hauehave an end?
Lich. Couen.
It must bee so in a disputation to seeke out the trueth.
L. Keper.
But how say you, my Lord Abbot, are you of the mynde it shalbe read?
Abbot.
Yea forsooth, my lord, I am very wel pleased with all. Harpesfield being inquired his mind, thought as the other did.
L. Keper.
My Lordes, sith that ye are not willing but refuse to read your writing after the order taken, wee wyll breake vp and departe: and for that ye willl not that wee should heare you, you may perhaps shortly heare of vsus.
THus hauehave we declared the order and maner of this cō munication or conference, at Westminster, betweene these two parties, wherin if any law or order were brokē, iudge (good reader) wher the fault was, and consider with al what these Papistes be, from whō if ye take away their sword and authority from them, you see all their cunning how soone it lyeth in the dust, or els why would they not abide the triall of writing? why would they or durst they not stande to the order agreed vponupon? Whether shoulde we say ignoraunce or stubbernes to be in them more, or both together? Who first being gently (as is sayd) and fauorably required to keep the order appointed, they would not. Then being secondly (as appeared by the Lord Keepers words) pressed more earnestly, they neither regarding the authority. &c. of that place, nor their owne reputation, nor the credite of the cause, vtterly refused that to doe. And finally being agayne particularly eueryevery of them aparte distinctly by name required to vnderstande theyr opinions therin, they al, sauing one (which was the Abbot of Westminster, hauing some more consideratiō of order and hys duety of obedience then the other) vtterly and playnly denyed to hauehave theyr booke read, some of them as more earnestly then other, some so also, some other more vndiscretly, and vnreuerently then others. Wherupon geuing such example of disorder, stubbernes, and selfe will, as hath not bene seene and suffered in such an honorable assembly, being of the two estates of this Realme, the nobility and the commons, beside the presence of the Queenes Maiestyes most honorable priuy counsell, the same assembly was dis. missed, and the Godly and most Christian purpose of the Queenes Maiesty made frustrate. And afterward for the contempt so notoriously made, the Byshop of Wincester & Lincolne,Bishopspes cōmitted to the Tower. hauing most obstinatly both disobeyed commō authority, and varyed manifestly from theyr owne order, and specially Lincoln, who shewed more folly then the other: were condignely committed to the Tower of London, and the rest (sauing the Abbot of Westminster) stoode bound to make dayly theyr personall appearaunce before the counsell, and not to depart the Cittye of London and Westminster, vntill further order were taken with thē for their disobedience and contempt.
Besides the former protestation or libell written and exhibited by the Protestantes, concerning the first question, there was also an other like writing of the fayde Protestantes made of the second question, but not published, which if it come to our hand, we wil likewise impart vntounto thee.
As these Byshops aboue named were committed to the Tower, so Boner Bishop of London, about the same time,Boner cast in the Marshalsey. was commaunded to the Marshalsea, whereas hee both in his blinde bloudy heresy, and also in his deserued captiuity long remayned, abiding the Queenes pleasure, gods pleasure, I beseech him, so be wrought on that person, that the Church of Christes flocke, if they can take or looke for no goodnesse of that man to come, yet they maye take of him and of other no more harme herafter, thē they hauehave done alredy. We al beseech thee this O Lord eternal per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
Aboute this time, at the beginning of the flourishing reigne of Queene Elizabeth, was a Parliament summoned, and holden at Westminster, wherin was much debating about matters touching religion, and great study on both parties employed, the one to reteine still, the other to impugne the doctrine and faction which before in queene Maries time had bene established. But especially here is to be noted that though ther lacked no industry on the papistes side, to holde fast that, which they most cruelly from time to time had studied, & by al meanes practised to come by: Yet notwithstanding, such was the prouidence of God at that time, that for lacke of the other bishops, whome the Lorde had taken away by death a little before, the residue that there were left, could doe the lesse: and in very deede, God be praysed therefore, did nothing at all in effect. Although yet notwithstanding there lacked in them neyther will nor labour to do what they could, if their cruell abilitie there might hauehave serued. But namely amongest all other,D. Storyes impudent word… in the Parliament. not onelyonly the industrious courage of Doctor Story but also his wordes in this Parliament are worthy to be knowne of posteritie, who like a stout and furious champion of the popes side, to declare himselfe howe lustie hee was, & what he had and would do in his maisters quarrell, shamed not openly in the saide Parliament house to brast out into such impudent sort of words, as was wonder to all good eares to heare, and no lesse worthy of history.
The summe of which his shameles talke was vttered to this effect: First beginning with himselfe, hee declared,The wordes of D. Story … the Par…iam…nt house. that where as he was noted commonly abroad, and much complayned of, to hauehave bene a great doer, and a …e…ter forth of such religion, orders, and proceedinges, as of hys late soueraigne that dead is, Queene Mary, were set forth in this Realme, hee denied nothing the same, protestyng moreouer that he therein had done nothing, but that both his conscience did lead him thereunto, and also his commission did as wel then commaund him, as now also doth discharge hym for the same, being no lesse ready now also to doe the like, and more, in case hee by this Queene were authorised likewise, and commaunded thereunto. Wherefore as I see (sayth he) nothing to be ashamed of, so lesse I see to be sory for, but rather sayd that he was sory for thys, because he had done no more thē he did, and that in executing those lawes, they had not bene more vehement and seuere. Wherein he sayd, there was no default in him, but in them, whom he both ofte and earnestly had exhorted to the same, being therefore not a little greeued with them, for that they laboured onelyonly about the young and little sprigges and twigges, whyle they should hauehave stroken at the roote, and cleane hauehave rooted it out. &c. And concerning his persecuting and burning them, hee denyed not, but that he was once at the burning of an herewygge (fo… so he termed it) at Uxbridge, where he tost a faggot at his face as hee was singing Psalmes,This Martyr burnt at Vxbridge was M. Denley. and set a wynbushe of thornes vnderunder his feete, a little to pricke him, wyth many other words of like effect. In the whiche words he named moreouer syr Phillip Hobby, & an other knight of Kent, with such other of the richer and higher degree, whom his Counsell was to plucke at: & to bring them vnderunder coram, wherein sayd he if they had followed my aduise, then had they done well and wisely. This or much like was the effect of the shameles and tyrannicall excuse of hym selfe, more meete to speake with the voyce of a beast, then of a man.
Although in this Parliament some diuersitie there was of iudgement & opinion betweene parties, yet notwithstanding through the mercifull goodnes of the Lord, the true cause of the Gospell had the vpper hand, the Papistes hope was frustrate, and theyr rage abated, the order and proceedinges of king Edwardes time concerning religion was reuiued agayne, the supremacie of the Pope abolished, the articles and bloudy statutes of Queene Mary repealed, briefly the furious firebrandes of cruell persecution, which had consumed so many poore mens bodyes, were now extinct and quenched.
Finally, the olde Byshops deposed, for that they refused the othe in renouncing the pope and not subscribing to the Queenes iust and lawfull title. In whose rowmes and places, first for Cardinall Poole, succeeded D. Mathew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury. In the place of Heth, succeeded D. Young. In steede of Boner, Edmund Grindall was Bishop of London. For Hopton, Thurlby Tonstall, Pates, Christoferson, Peto, Coates, Morgan, Feasy, White, Oglethorpe. &c. were placed Doctor Iohn Parkust in Norwich, D. Coxe in Ely, Iuell in Salisbury Pilkenton in Duresme, Doctor Sandes in Worcester Mayster Downam in Westchester, Bentam in Couentry and Lichfield, Dauid in S. Dauies, Ally in Exceter, Horn in Winchester, Scory in Hereford, Best in Carlile, Bullingham in Lincoln Scamler in Peterbury, Bart let in Bath, Gest in Rochester, Barlo in Chi. &c.
¶And here to make an end of this Story. Now it remayneth to proceed further to the Appendix in supplying such thinges as hauehave either bene omitted, or newly inserted, as foloweth.
❧The Appendix of such Notes and Matters, as either hauehave bene in this History omitted or newly inserted.
IN this Story of Sir Roger Acton aboue mentioned pag. 587.Referre this to the pag. 587. I finde that with him were taken many other persōs, that all the prisons in & about London were replenished with people. The chiefe of thē, which were 29. were condemned of heresy, & atteynted of high treason, as mouers of war agaynst theyr king, by the temporall law in the Guild hall the 12. day of December, and adiudged to be drawne and hanged for treasō, and for heresy to be consumed with fire, Gallowes and all, which iudgement was executed in Ianuary following on the sayde Syr Roger Acton and 28. other.
Some say that the occasion of theyr death was the cō ueyance of the Lord Cobham out of Prison. Other write that it was both for treason (as the aduersaries termed it) and heresy.
Certayne affirme that it was for feyned causes surmised by the spiritualty, more of displeasure thē truth, as seemeth more neare to the truth.