Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 12 · Account 29 · Examination 3
¶The third examination of Richard Woodman (copied with his owne hand) before D. Langdall parson of Buxted in Sussex, and Chaplaine to my Lord Montague, and M. Iames Gage, at my Lord Montagues house beside S. Mary Oueries in Southwarke, the 12. day of May, Anno. 1557.
THe 1…. day of May the Marshal came to the Marshalsee & sent for me to speake with him.The third examination of Richard Woodman, before D. Langdale, and M. Iames Gage, May. 12. When I came before him, & had done my dutie, he asked my name, & what countrey man I was, I shewed him both. Then he asked me when I was abroad in the city. To whom I answered, if it shal please your maistership, I was abroad in the citie on Monday was seuennight.
Marshall.
What made you abroad?
Wood.
The B. o… Chichester sent for me to talke with mee at home at his house beside S. Nicholas shambles.
Mar.
Were you abroad no otherwise then so?
Wood.
No forsooth: I was neuer abroad since I was sent hither, but then. For I hauehave nothing to do abroad, vnlesse they send for me.
Mar.
This is a marueilous matter. I promise you I was not so rebuked these 7. yeares,False lyes and lewde reportes. as I was for you within these 3. dayes. It is reported that you were abroad in the citie at certaine Tauernes, & spake seditious wordes both in the Tauernes and Streetes as you went.
Wood.
Syr, the trueth is, I was in neuer a house or Tauerne, whiles I was abroad, but in the bishops house, as my keeper can, & will (I am sure) testify: nor I neuer talked with any man in the streetes as I came, but with my keeper, sauing with one man in deede, of the Parishe of Framfield in Sussex, where M. Iames Gage dwelleth. His name is Rob. Smith, being one of my most enemies: who stood in a waine as we came by, and was vnlading of Cheese (me thought) but a litle way from the Marshalsee. In deede I bade him God speede, and asked him howe he did: and he sayd, well, he thanked me: and he asked me how I did, and I sayd, well, I prayse God: & that was all the talke that we had: & these wordes were spoken as I came by him. I promise you sir, I stoode not still while I spake thē, as my keeper can tell: and I thinke these words were no seditious wordes, but might be spoken well enough (I thinke) or els it were very strayt.
Marshall.
Woodman warned to appeare.Then it is to bee thought, that that man reported otherwise then it was. I am gladde it is as you say. Well make you ready, for you must go forth straight way, where you shall be examined of that and of other thinges, where you shal aunswere for your selfe. Go make hast: for I will …ary till you be ready.
Wood.
Woodman taketh his leaue of his fellowes.So I departed from him, & went to my prison felowes, & took my leaue of them desiring thē to pray for me, for I thought verely to come no more to them. For I supposed I should hauehave gone before the Counsell, because the Marshall sayd he would tary for me himselfe: and especially because he sayd it was reported that I had spoken seditious words, it made me to think it is possible that there may be some false things imagined vponupon me, to bring me to my end. I remembred that Christ sayd: The seruant is not aboue his Lord. Seyng the Iewes brought false witnes agaynst Christ, I thought they would do much more, or at the least doe so to me, … God would suffer thē: which made me cast the worste. But I was and am sure (I prayse my Lord God) that all the world is not able to accuse me iustly of any such thing. Which thing considered, made me mery and ioyfull: and I was surely certified that they coulde do no more against me, then God would geue them leaue: And so I bad my prison fellowes farewell, and went into the Porters Lodge to the Marshall, and he deliuered me to one of his owne men, and to one of my Lord Mountagues men,Woodman deliuered to one of the Lord Mountagues men. and bade me go with them: and they caryed me to my Lord Mountagues place in Southwarke not farre from S. Mary Oueries, and brought me into a chamber in my Lord Mountagues house: and there was one Doc. Langdale, chapleine to my Lord. My keepers sayd to the Docto…: this is the man that we went for.
Lang.
Is your name Woodman?
Wood.
Yea forsooth, that is my name.
Lang.
Then hee beganne with a greate Circumstaunce, and sayd: I am sory for you, that you will not be ruled, but stand so much in your owne conceite, displeasing your father and other, iudging that all the Realme doth euil, saue a few that doe as you do: with many such wordes, whiche be too long to rehearse: but I will declare the substaunce of them.
Lang.
What think you of them that died long agone, your Graundfather,Religion esteemed by auncitors & Grandfathers, and by place. with theyr fathers before them? You iudge them to be damned, & all other that vse the same that they did, throughout all Christendome, vnlesse it be in Germany and here in England a few yeares, and in Denmark: & yet they are returned againe. Thus we are sure this is the truth, and I would you should do well. Your father is an honest man and one of my parish, and hath wept to me diuers times, because you would not be ruled: and he loueth you well, & so doth all the country, both rich and poore, if it were not for those euill opiniōs that you hold with many such like tales of Robin Hood.
Wood.
I pray you geue me leaue to speake a fewe wordes to you.
Lang.
Yes, say your mind.
Wood.
You hauehave told a great tale and a long, as it were agaynst me (as you thinke) saying, I hold this and that: I iudge my Father and my Graundfather, and almost al the world, without it be a few that be of our sect. But I iudge no manne. But the xij. of Iohn declareth, who it is that iudgeth, and shall iudge in the last day. The father shal not beare the sonnes offences, nor the sonne the fathers offences: but that soule that sinneth shall dye, as sayth the Prophet. And agayne,Multitude not to be followed in doing euill. To doe as most men doe and to doe as a man ought to doe, are two things. we may not folow a multitude to do euill, as sayth the Prophet: For the most goe the wrong way. And Christ sayth in the xij. of Luke, that his flock is a litle flock. Here be places enough to discharge me, although I do not as the most doe. But can any man say, that I do not as I ought to do? where be my accusers?
Lang.
What, you be full of scripture me thinke, and call for your accusers, as though you were afrayde to vtter your mind to me. But I woulde hauehave you not to be afrayde to talk with me: For I meane no more hurt to you then I do to my selfe, I take God to my record.
Wood.
I cannot tell. It is hard trusting of fayre wordes, when a man cannot trust his father nor brother,Hard trusting any man in thi… world. Woodman… blamed fo… aunswerin… with Scriptures. nor other that hauehave bene his familiar frendes, but they deceiue him. A man may lawfully follow the example of Christ towardes them that he neuer saw before, saying: Be as wise as Serpentes, and as innocent as doues. Beware of men, for they goe about to betray you. And it maketh me suspect you much, because you blame me for answering with the scriptures. It maketh me to doubt that you would take vauntage of me, if I should speake mine owne wordes. Wherefore I will take as good heede as I can, because I hauehave bene deceiued already by them I trusted most. Wherefore blame me not though I aunswere circumspectly. It shall not be sayd, by Gods helpe, that I will run wilfully into mine enemyes handes, and yet, I prayse God, my life is not deare to my selfe, but it is deare with God: Wherfore I will do the vttermost that I can to keepe it.
Lang.
You be afrayd where no feare is,D. Langdales talke with Richard Woodman, vponupon what occasion, & by whose procurement. Woodman charged with his owne hand writing. for I was desired of Mayster Sheriffe and his brother, and of other of your frendes, to talke with you, and they told me thot you were desirous to talke with me, and now ye make the matter as though you had nothing to doe with me, & as though you were sent to prison for nothing: for you call for your accusers, as though there were no man to accuse you. But if there were no man to accuse you, your own hand writing did accuse you enough, that you set vponupon the Church doore (if you be remembred) and other letters that you let fall abroad, some at one place, and some at an other. Wherefore you need not to cal for your accusers. Your own hand wil accuse you enough, I warrant you: it is kept safe enough. I would not for two hundred pounde there were so much agaynst me.
Wood.
I will not deny mine owne hand, by Gods helpe. For it cannot be lightly counterfayted. I doe not deny but I wrote a letter to the priest and other of the parish, declaring to them theyr folly and presumption, to come into my house without my louelove or leaue and fet out my childe, and vse it at their pleasure.Richard Woodmans writing …et vponupon the the Church dore vponupon what occasion. Which moued me to write my mind to them: and because I coulde not tell how to conuey it to them, I set it on the Church doore. Which letter my Lorde of Chichester hath: for he shewed it me whē I was before him: wherin is conteined nothing but the very scriptures, to theyr reproch. Let it be layde before me when you or hee will: I will answere to it by the helpe of God, to all theyr shames that I wrote it to. And as for any other letters, I wrote none, as you say I did, neither had I wrote that, if they had done like honest neighbours. Wherfore if they be offended with me, for that I wil aunswere thē with Christes wordes, in the 18. of Math. woe vntounto themselues, because they gaue me the occasion.
And whereas you sayd, I was desirous to speak with you, and that Maister Sheriffe and his brother, and other of my frendes willed me to talke with you, and that I fare nowe as though I had nothing to doe with you, and as though I were sent to prison for nothing: the truth is, I know no more wherefore I am sent to prison, thē the least child in this towne knoweth. And as for me, I desired not M. Sheriffe to speake with you: but in deede he desired me that I would speake with you, & to vtter my fayth to you.Woodman required of M. Sheriffe and other his frendes, to talke with D. Langdale. D Langdale Pa…on of Buxsteede, where Woodman… father dwelt. For he supposed that I did not beleeue well: & he reported you to bee learned. But I refused to talke with you at the first. For I remēbred not that you were the parsō of Buxted: wherfore I sayd to him, I would not vtter my faith to any but to the bishop. I sayd, he is mine Ordinary: wherfore I appeale vntounto him. I am commaunded by S. Peter in the first Epistle the thyrd chap. to render account of my hope that I hauehave in god, to him that hath authority: wherfore I will talke with none in that matter, but with hym. Wherefore send me to him, if you will, or els there shall no man know my fayth, I tell you playnely.
These wordes then made the Sheriffe angry, and he went his way: and when he was gone from me, I remē bred that it was you that he would hauehave me to talke with, and then I remembred that I had made a promise to my father, and goodman Day of Uefield, not past a fournight before I was taken,Woodmans friendes desirous to heare him and D. Langdale talke together. that when so euer you came into the country, I would speak with you by Gods helpe, because they praysed you so muche, that yee were learned, and they would fayne here vsus talke.
So al these thinges called to remēbrance, I desired my keeper, which was the Sheriffes man to shew his maister that I would fayne speake with him: for I had remēbred things that were not in my mind before, when I spake to him. So he went to his maister, & shewed him the matter, and he came to me: and then I told him my mind, & what promise I had made: and he said, he would send for you on the morow, as he did, and the messēger brought word you could not come: you preached before the Queene, he sayde. Wherupon the Sheriffe came vp himselfe, and spake to the Bishop that he should come downe, but he was sicke. So when he came home agayne, he sent me to the Bishop, and I hauehave talked with him twise already,… By…hop was … Christo…erson. W…odman …. and I am sure he can find no fault in me, if he say iustly: and yet I know not wherefore I was sent to prison: For I was not guilty of that whiche was layde to my charge, that I had baptised children, the which I neuer did, as God knoweth: wherefore I hauehave wrong to be thus handled.
D. Lang.
In deed it hath bene reported that you hauehave christened children, & that you christened your owne child: but since I heard say you would not hauehave the child christened, which is a damnable way, if you deny baptisme: and they sayd, your child was not christened in a fourtnight or three weekes after it was borne, and the chiefest of the Parishe were fayne to fetch it out of your house agaynst your wyll. Wherefore you wrote rayling wordes agaynst the Prieste and them for theyr good will:… the which declareth that you allowe not baptising of children. And if the childe had dyed, it had bene damned, because it was not Christened, and you shoulde hauehave bene damned, because you were the lette thereof.
Wood.
What abhominable lies hauehave you told? Be you not ashamed to speake such wordes as you hauehave done? Fyrste you say, I christened mine owne childe, and by and by you sayd, I denyed baptising of childrē, and that my child was a fortnight or three weekes old ere it was baptised. What abhominable lyes be these? I neither baptised my child my selfe, neither held agaynst the baptising of it, but did moste gladlye allowe it: for it was baptised as soone as it was borne, and I was glad therof: therfore you be to blame to report so of me.
Lang.
…I pray you, who baptised it? some vnthrift of your prouiding.
Wood.
Nay surely the Midwife baptised it.
Lang.
But it was your mind that it should be so.
Wood.
Nay sure, I was not me home by almost xx. miles nor heard that my wife was brought to bed four dayes after the child was christened. For it was not like to liue: & therfore the Midwife baptised it.
Lang.
Would you hauehave had it to church to hauehave bene christened,D. Langdale to …. if it had not bene christened?
Wood.
That is no matter what I woulde hauehave yone. I am sure you can not denye but it is sufficiently done, if the Midwife do it, and I hold not agaynst the doing of it, neither did I it my selfe, as you sayd I did.
Lang.
Wherfore were you displeased with them that fet it to Church?
Wood.
First tell me whether the child were not truely baptised by the Midwife?
Langd.
Yes, it was truely Baptised, if shee Baptised it in the name of the Father, and of the Sonne, and of the holye Ghost.
Wood.
Yes that I am sure shee did, and you graunte that was sufficient: and the cause that I blamed them for, was because they did more to it then neede was,…odman … without … cause. by your owne saying. Yea, they fet it out of my house without my leaue: the which was not well done.
Lang.
They had it to Church to confirme that was done.
Wood.
Yea, but th… was more then needs. But God forgeue them, if it be his will. But let that matter passe. But I would you should not say that I hold agaynst baptising of children, for I doe not, I take God to recorde: but doe allowe it to be most necessary, if it be truely vsed. But me thought you spake wordes euen now that were vncomely to be spoken: if a childe die, & be not baptised, it is damned. How thinke you? be all damned that receiue not the outward signe of baptisme?
Lang.
Yea that they be.
Wood.
How proue you that?
Lang.
… childrē … …mned … Doctour …dale … …ptisme.Goe, sayth Christ, and baptise in the name of the father, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost, and he that beleueth, and is baptised, shalbe saued: and he that beleueth not shalbe damned. These be the wordes of Christ, which are my warrant.
Wood.
Then by your saying, baptisme bringeth fayth, and all that be Baptised in the water, shall be saued: shall they? how say you?
Lang.
Yea, that they shall: if they die before they come to discretiō,… childrē … by D. Langdale, … be …. they shalbe saued eueryevery one of them, and all that be not baptised shall be damned eueryevery one of them.
Wood.
Then my spirite was moued with him to reprooue him sharply, because I had manifest scriptures fresh in my mind agaynst his saying. Then sayd I.
O Lord God, how dare you speake suche blasphemye agaynst God and his word, as you doe? howe dare you for your life to take vponupon you to preache, & teach the people, & vnderstand not what you say?Richard Woodmad chargeth D. Langdale with ignorance in the scriptures▪ For I protest before GOD you vnderstande not the scriptures, but as far as naturall reason can comprehēd. For if you did, you would be ashamed to speake as you do.
Lang.
Wherein hauehave I spoken amisse? take heede, you hauehave a toy in your head wil make you dispayre. I dare say you can not tell what you say. Wherefore reproue you me as you do?
Wood.
Because you blaspheme GOD: and as for dispayring, take heed to your selfe. For I can not see but you be out of your wit alreadye· and as for me, I prayse God, I can tell what I say, and what you hauehave sayd: the whiche shall turne to your shame, if you wil talke the Scriptures with me.
So, when hee perceiued that I spake earnestlye, and challenged hym to talke by the woorde, his colour began to chaunge, and his fleshe beganne to tremble and quake. And I sayd.
Proue your sayinges true, if you can: for I will proue them false, by Gods helpe. You sayd. All children, or other that be not baptised with water, all shall be damned. I dare not say so, for all the good in the worlde. And you brought in the saying of Christ for your warrant. In the xvi. of Marke it is written: Who so beleueth, and is baptised, shalbe saued: which words be very true: and who so beleueth not, shalbe damned. Which words be very true also. He sayeth: He that beleueth not, shalbe damned. Yea S. Iohn sayeth: He that beleueth not, is condemned already, because he beleueth not. But neither of these two scriptures, nor no other scriptures in all the newe Testament sayth, that he that is not baptised, shalbe damned, or is damned already. But if he beleue not, he shalbe damned, and is damned already, as is aforesayd. Then he woulde hauehave interrupted me, & would hauehave layd to my charge, that I was an Anabaptist. But I wold geue him no place to speake, but sayd:
Let me make an end, and then say what you can. You shall hauehave as much to doe, by Gods helpe, with this matter, as euer you had to aunsweare thing in your life. You knowe (I am sure) it is no maner to plucke a tale out of a mans mouth, nor it is not the order of reasoning, as you know that better then I can tell you. Then Doctor Langdale bade me say on.
Wood.
My saying was, that they that beleue not,Fayth, not Baptisme saueth. Not lacke of Baptisme, but lacke of fayth condemneth. shall be damned, and be dāned already. But I dare not say, for all the goods vnderunder heauen, that all they that receiue no materiall baptisme by the water, shall be damned, as you hauehave sayd: yet I would you should not gather of these wordes, that I denye Baptisme, as you were aboute to laye to my charge, or euer I had halfe told my tale. But I would not hauehave you, nor no man so rash in iudgement, to cōdemn the thing yt they are not able to proue by the worde, & to make it seme to the simple, that the outward washing of the water were the cause of fayth.
Langd.
Why, is it not so? will you denye it? Howe say you? Will you denye it? I say, the childe hath no fayth before it is baptised: and therefore the baptising bringeth the fayth. How say you to it? Make me a playne answere to this question.
Wood.
Nowe I perceiue you goe about nothing els, but to take vauntage of my wordes. But by Gods helpe, I will aunswere you so,Baptising of water is not the cause of fayth. The Catholicks do hold the contrary. that you shall well see your sayings vntrue. And yet I will not speak mine owne wordes, but the wordes of the holy Ghost, out of the mouth of the prophets and Apostles: and then aske them whether they wil deny it.
You sayd, that fayth commeth by Baptisme, had by the vse of material water.A Catholicke paradoxe. The purpose of Gods election standeth by grace and not by reason of workes. I must be so bold to aske you where Iacob was baptised before he had fayth. S. Paule sayth in the ninth chapter to the Romanes: Or euer the childrē were borne, or euer they had done eyther good or bad, that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, not by the reason of workes, but by the grace of the caller, the elder shall serue the younger. Iacob I hauehave loued, and Esau I hated. How think you, had this childe fayth or euer he were borne, or no? answere to this, if you can.
Lang.
What, you speake of the olde Lawe, Iacob was not christened, but circumcised. I speake of Baptisme and you are gone from baptising to the time of Circumcision: answere me to the baptising. And me thinke by your talk, you deny originall sinne and free will,Doctor Langdales Argumēt, Children dying without Baptisme may be saued. Ergo, children hauehave no originall sinne. by the wordes that you brought in of S. Paule.
For if children can bee saued without baptisme, then it must needes follow, that children hauehave no originall sinne, the which is put away in the baptising. But I thinke you know not what originall sinne is, nor free will neyther me thinke by your talke.
Wood.
Yes, I prayse God (I thinke) I can tell them all better then you can, me thinke euē by your words. First I pray you what free will hath man to doe good of himselfe? Tell me this first, & then I will answere to all your other questions that you hauehave obiected agaynst me.
Lang.
I say that all men hauehave as much free will nowe, as Adam had before his fall.Absurde doctrine.
Wood.
I pray you how proue you that?
Lang.
Thus I prooue it, that as sinne entred into the world, & by the meanes of one that sinned, all men became sinners, the whiche was by Adam, so by the obedience of man,Aunswere. This righteousnes by Iesus Christ commeth vponupon all men, not in taking away imperfections of nature, but in not imputing the imperfections of man to damnation. righteousnesse came vponupon all men that had sinned, & sette them as free as they were before theyr fall, the whiche was by Iesus Christ. Rom. v.
Wood.
Oh Lorde, what an ouerthrowe hauehave you geuen your selfe here in originall sinne, and yet can not see it? For in prouing that we hauehave free wil, you hauehave denied quite original sinne. For here you hauehave declared that we be set as free by the death of Christ, as Adam was before his fall, & I am sure Adam had no originall sinne before his fall. If we be as free nowe as he was then, I maruell wherefore Paul complayned thrise to God, to take away the sting of it, God making him aunswere, and saying: My grace is sufficient for thee.
These wordes with diuers other, approueth originall sinne in vsus: but not that it shall hurt Gods electe people, but that his grace is sufficient for all his.We are made free by the death of Christ, not from falling but from damnation due by the lawe for our falling. Originall sinne. But you saye in one place, it is not without baptisme: and in an other place you put it away quite by the death of Christ: and in verye deed you hauehave spokē truer in the matter thē you be aware of. For all that beleue in Christ, are baptised in the bloude of Christ that he shed on the Crosse, & in the water that he swet for payne & putting away of our sinnes at his death. And yet I say with Dauid in the 51. Psalme: In sinne was I borne, and in sinne hath my mother conceiued me: but in no suche sinne that shall bee imputed, because I am borne of God by fayth, as Sayncte Iohn sayth. Therefore I am blessed,Iohn, 3. Psal. 23. as sayth the Prophet: Because the Lorde imputeth not my sinne, and not because I hauehave no sinne: but because God hath not imputed my sinnes. Not of our owne deseruing, but of his free mercy he hath saued vsus. Where is now your free will become that you spake of?Perfect doctrine. If we hauehave free will, then our saluation commeth of our owne selfe, & not of God: the which is a great blasphemy agaynst God and his word.
Iames. 1.For Saynt Iames sayth: EueryEvery good gift, and eueryevery perfect gift commeth from aboue, from the father of light, with whō is no variablenes, neither is he chaunged into darcknesse. Of his owne will he begate vsus. For the winde bloweth where it lusteth, and we heare the soūd therof, as sayth S. Iohn: But we cannot tell from whence it commeth, Iohn. 3.neither whether it goeth: Euen so is it with eueryevery one that is borne of God. For S. Paule sayth: It is God that woorketh in vsus the will and also the deed, Phil. 2.euen of good will. Seing then that eueryevery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue, & lighteth vponupon whom it pleaseth God, and that he worketh in vsus both the will and the deede: me thinke all the reste of our owne will is little worthe,Adams free will nothing. or nought at all, vnles it be to wickednes. So me think here be places enough to proue that a man hath no free will to doe good of himselfe: with a hundred places moe, that I could recite if time did serue. And as for originall sinne, I thinke I hauehave declared my mind therin, how it remaineth in man: whiche you can not denye, vnlesse you deny the word of God. Now, if you will suffer me, I will proue my saying of Iacob and Esau, that I brought in, to proue that faith was before baptisme, and you refused it, because (you sayd) Iacob was not baptised.Fayth was before baptisme. If you will geue me leaue, you shall see what I can say therin: for me think you think my talke long. This I sayd, because I saw he was sore offended at my sayinges.
Lang.
Saye what you canne, For it auayleth me to saye nothing to you.D. Langdale seemeth to be put to silence. For I was desired to sende for you, to teache you, and there will no wordes of mine take place in you: but you goe about to reproue me. Saye what you will for me.
Wood.
I take not vponupon me to teach you, but to aunswere to such thinges as you lay vntounto my charge: and I speake not mine owne minde, but the minde of the holy Ghoste, written by the Prophetes and Apostles. Wyll you geue me leaue to aunswere briefly in that matter, that you may report to other what I holde? And he sayd, he was contē ted. But I thinke it was for nothing, but to hauehave caughte vauntage of my wordes.
Wood.
Children dying without baptisme are not therefore damned, speaking absolutely.First, if you be remembred, you said, that if my child had dyed without baptisme, if I had bene the cause that it had not bene baptised, the child should hauehave bene damned, and I too. How say you?
Lang.
Yea that you should.
Wood.
That is moste vntrue. For the Prophete sayeth: The father shall not beare the childes offences, nor the childe the fathers offences: but the soule that sinneth shall dye. Children beare not the offences of their fathers.What could the child hauehave done withal, if it had died without baptism? the childe coulde not do withall. How say you vntounto this? And I am sure: that which I brought in in the olde Law, to proue that fayth is before baptisme, is not disagreeable vntounto the word. For Circūcision was a figure of baptisme. And that I may bring to proue baptisme by, as wel as S. Peter did: for he brought in Noes sloude,1. Pet. 3. whiche was a long time before Iacob & Esau, to proue baptisme, saying: While the Arke was a preparing, Gene. 6▪wherein few (that is to saye) eight soules were saued by water, like as Baptisme also nowe saueth vsus, not in putting away of the filth of the flesh, but there is … good conscience consenting to God.
Here Peter proueth, that the water had not saued Noe and the other seuen, no more then it saued all the rest, if it had not bene for theyr fayth, which fayth now saueth vsus: not in putting away of the filthy sinne of the fleshe, by the washing of the water, but by a good conscience consenting vntounto God.
But you sayd: If they be baptised with the water, if they dye before they come to yeares of discretion, they be al saued: the which S. Peter is cleane agaynste, vnlesse you graunt that children hauehave fayth before they be baptised.
Nowe I aske you what consent of conscience the children hauehave, being infantes. For you say they beleue not, before they bee Baptised: Ergo, then they consent not to be Baptised, because they beleue not. And by this it followeth that none shalbe saued, althogh they be baptised. I would fayne see how you can aunswere to this.
Lang.
You are the most peruerse man that euer I knewe. You wote not what you say. The children are baptised in theyr *Nay rather in the fayth of their Parentes. Neyther is it the fayth of the Godfathers and Godmothers▪ that sanctyfieth the child but their dilligence may helpe him in seeing him catechised.Godfathers and Godmothers fayth, and that is the good conscience that S. Peter speaketh of: and the Christening is the keeping of the law, that S. Paule speaketh of, saying: neither is Circumcision any thing worth, nor vncircūcision any thing worth, but keping of the lawe is altogether. Like as the Circumcision was the keping of the old law, so is baptisme the keeping of the new law.
Wood.
Ah, me thought if you would talke with me, you should be fayne to bring in the old law, to mainteine your sayinges by (for all that you refused it) when I brought it in. But yet it serueth not for your purpose, so muche as you think for. For here you hauehave confessed that neither circumcision auayleth, nor vncircūcision: the which you your selfe hauehave coupled with Baptisme, prouing that none of them both preuaileth, but keping of the law is altogether: the which law is kept (you say) by the outward signes: the which is nothing so, for Abrahā beleued God, & that was counted to him for righteousnes: And this was before he was Circumcised.False doctrine of D. Langdale. Fyrste where he sayth the keeping of the law is altogether. Secondly, that the keping of the lawe standeth in the outward signes. Thirdly, that children dying before Baptisme are damned. Fourthly, that childrē be baptised in the fayth of their Godfathers and Godmothers. &c. Many called but fewe chosen. Luke▪ 12. So the children beleue before they be either Circumcised, or Baptised, according to my first saying of Iacob and Esau: Iacob I loued, but Esau I hated.
These wordes declared that Iacob hadde fayth in hys mothers wombe: also Iohn Baptist was sanctified in his mothers wombe, and therfore it was counted to them for righteousnesse: and I am sure, if they had dyed before, they had eyther receiued Circumcision or Baptisme as concerning the outward deed, they should hauehave bene saued. For Gods giftes and callinges are such, that he cannot repent him of them. But by your saying he doth both repent and chaūge. For you say, keeping of the outwarde law is altogether. But a bad excuse is as good as none at all.
And where you sayd, the children be Baptised in their Godfathers and Godmothers fayth, they being all vnbeleuers, in what fayth is that childe baptised then? in none at all, by your owne saying. Whiche woordes made him stampe and stare.
Lang.
What? then you woulde count that there were very few beleeuers, if there be not one of three that beleeueth. You enter into Iudgement agaynst the people. Belike you thinke there be none that beleue well vnlesse they be of your minde. In deed then Christes flocke were a very litle flocke.
Wood.
In deede these bee Christes woordes, in the 12. of Luke, the which we may see to be very true. Yea you sayd, if there were not one amongest three, that were very few. But there is not one amongest three hundred, for any thing that I can see. For if there were, there would not be so many that would seeke their neighbors goodes & lyues as there be.
Lang.
Is the flocke of Christ such a litle flock as you speak of? you may call it a great flock. How many be there of thē: Can you tell me?
Wood.
A prety question, I promise you, it is that you aske me: as though I did make my selfe equall with God.
No, no, you shal catch no such vauntage of my words nor I know not how many there be. But I will tell you as nigh as I can. For therefore you looke, I am sure, that I should enter into Iudgement.
Lang.
Gods elec…on stan…eth not by … most …, but by the fewest. …ath. 7. Luke. 12.Yea, I pray you tell me as much as you can, seing you be so cunning.
Wood.
You shall see my iudgement in it by and by. First the Prophet: Follow not a multitude to do euill, for they must go the wrong way. For the most go the wrong way. There is one poynt to know them.
Thē christ sayth in the 7. of Mat. Broad is the way & wide is the gate that leadeth into destruction, and many there be that go in thereat: and strayte is the gate, and narrow is the waye that leadeth vntounto life, and few there be that finde it. And in the xii. of Luke, it is written (which words were spoken of Christ) Come you little flocke, it is my fathers will to geue you a kyngdome. The third poynt is this. In the thyrd of Mark and second of Mathewe: You (saythe Christe) shall knowe the tree by the frutes. …. 3. Math. 2.A good tree bringeth foorth good fruites, and a badde tree tree bringeth forth bad fruites: So by fruites I know them. For eueryevery tree that bringeth not foorth good fruites, must be hewn downe and cast into ye fire (into hell I thinke Christ meant) and your fruites declare that you be one of them.… Argumentes … to be … taketh … agaynst …odman …. Thus hauehave I proued foure wayes that the people that shalbe saued, is but a small companye in comparison of the rest. But if that be not enough, for the proofe thereof, I hauehave twenty wayes more to proue it by, and you were neuer the nere of your purpose.
Lang.
What a naughty man are you? you would make the patientest mā in the world angry with you. I thinke your talke is nothing but pryde and vayneglorye, wt frumpes, and mockes, and dispising & iudging of men. It was time such a fellow were taken in deede. Suche a one is enough to trouble a whole country. I thinke he is blest of GOD that tooke you: for you are not meete to be in a common wealth.
Wood.
With diuers other such like wordes that I cannot recite, they came out so thicke, with stamping and staryng and chasing as though he had bene out of his witt. I held my peace, vntil he had made an end of his tormētors talk and then I spake.
Wherein hauehave I sayd amisse? or hauehave I not answered you vntounto eueryevery question that you hauehave demaunded of me? What fault can you finde in one word that I hauehave sayd? I dare say you can finde none. I maruayle why you take on thus agaynst me, hauing no cause so to doe.
Lang.
No, no, you hauehave not aunswered me to original sin, you deny originall sinne.
Wood.
With these wordes came in at the dore M. Iames Gage: And I thinke hee stoode at the dore a good whyle before he came in, and that Doctour Langdall sawe hym: For his face was to the dore ward,…. Iames … talke with Wood…n. and my face was from it.
Gage.
Ah Woodman, me thinke mayster Doctor and you cannot agree.
Wood.
Yes sir me thinke we agree very well.
Lang.
Without doubte sir he is the naughtiest man that euer I talked with in all my life: for he will hauehave his owne way in all thinges.
Gage.
Woodman, leaue that pride. Do not trust so muche to your own wit. Harken to this man. This is a learned man, I tell you. He is knowne to be learned. For els hee shuld not be allowed to preach before the Queenes maiesty: and I dare say he will tell thee nothing, nor will thee to doe nothing, but that he will do himselfe: and I dare say he will not go to the Deuill to bring the thether: How say you M. Doc.? Thou mightest think vsus mad, if we would hurt our selues to hurte thee. No I promise thee, my brother, neither I, nor no gentleman in the Country, I think of my conscience, but would thou shouldst doe as well as their owne bodyes and soules, as a great many of them hauehave sayd to thy face whilest thou wast at my brothers, the which thou canst not deny.
Wood.
Sir, I can saye none otherwise but I was gently entreated at your brothers, both with meate and drynke & gentle wordes, both of you and him, and diuers other gē tlemen: and I am sure you nor they can say, that you foūd me vnreasonable at any time. For I sayde I was contented to learne of them that were able to teache me, and so I am, as God knoweth: and here M. Doctour (I think) can say no otherwise: for I dare say he can find no fault in the talke that we hauehave had.D. Lang…le com…ayneth to … Gage of Woodman, causeles. Woodman falsely be…ed.
Lang.
No mary, I can finde nothing els in you, I promise you mayster Gage, if you had bene here, you woulde hauehave sayd so your selfe. He tooke me vp in deede, and sayd he maruailed how I durst preach. For he sayde, I vnderstoode not the scripture, but as farre as naturall reason comprehended? as though he vnderstoode all, and I nothing. With diuers other such like words he made a great complaint to him on me, & sayd to mayster Iames Gage, he would make you beleue that I could finde no faulte in in him. Yes iwis: he denieth originall sinne.
Gage.
Yea? doth he so? by S. Mary that is a great matter, Woodman: leaue yt pride. That pride wil come to naught. Can ye liue without sinne?
Wood.
Sir, now I perceiue he will soone lye on me behinde my backe, when hee will not sticke to lye before my face.
He sayth I denied originall sinne: and it was he hymselfe, as I will let you be iudge in the matter. For as hee went about to proue that man hath free will, he sayd wee were set as free by the death of christ,D. Langdale denieth originall sinne, yet accuseth Woodman, for the which he is culpable himselfe. as Adam was before his fall: which wordes proue playnely that we hauehave no original sin: And I tooke him withall, & sayd: had Adam originall sinne before hys fall? and then hee coulde not tell what to say but cauilled with wordes, and sayd he meant not so: and therefore I maruell he is not ashamed to make such lies to my face, These wordes made them both astonyed.
Gage.
M. Doctour he sayd euen now you coulde finde no fault in all his talke. I will bid you aske him a question, that I will warrant you shall finde faulte enough, I pray you aske hym howe he beleeueth in the Sacramente of the Aultar. I thinke hee will make but a bad accompte thereof.
Wood.
Yes, I wil make accompt good enough of that, by Gods helpe.
Lang.
Well, how say you to the sacrament of the aultar?
Wood.
I say I know no such sacrament, vnlesse Chryst be the aultar that you meane.
Gage.
Lo, I told you, you should soone finde fault in him if you came to that poynt with him. You shuld hauehave begun with that first, and neuer hauehave talked with him about other thinges. What?Woodman knoweth no Sacrament of the Aultar, vnlesse they take Christ to be the Aultar. know ye not the sacrament of the aultar?
Wood.
No sure, I know no such, vnlesse christ be the aultar that you meane: for Christ is the aultar of al goodnes. And if you meane Christ to be the aultar of the sacrament you speake of, you shall soone heare my minde and beliefe therein.
Lang.
Well, we meane Christe to be the aultar. Say your minde, and go briefly to worke: for I thinke it almost dinner.Woodmans iudgement of the Sacrament.
Gage.
I pray you go roundly to worke, yt you may make an end before dinner.
Woodman.
Yes, you shall soone heare my minde therin by Gods helpe. I doe beleue that whensoeuer I come to receaue the sacrament of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ being truely ministred according to Christes Institution I beleuing that Christ was borne of the virgine Mary, & that he was crucified on the crosse, and shed his bloude for the remission of my sinnes, and so take and eate the sacrament of bread and wine in that remembraunce, that then I doe receiue wholy Christ, God and manne, mistically by fayth. This is my beliefe of the sacrament, the whiche no man is able to disproue.
Gage.
By S. Mary I can finde no fault in this.D. Langdale seeketh a knot in a rushe. How say you Maister Doctour?
Lang.
Sir, you see not so much in it as I do. For he goeth craftely to worke: I tell you, as I hauehave heard. For though he hauehave graunted that the faythfull receauer receaueth the body of Christe, God and man, yet hee hath not graunted that it is the body of Christe before it bee receaued, as you shall see by and by I warrant you, by hys owne wordes.Whether the Sacrament be be the body of Christ before it be receaued. How say you? is it the body of Christ as soone as ye words be spoken by the Prieste or not? for these wordes will try hym more then all the rest.
Wood.
Doth the worde say that it is his body before it is receiued? if it do, I will say so to.
Gage.
Why? then you shall agree well inough, if you wyll be tryed by the word.
Wood.
Yes forsooth, that I will: God forbid els.
Gage.
Why? the worde sayth it is his body before it is eaten.
Wood.
Those words would I fayne heare:Luke. …2. but I am sure they be not in the Bible.
Lang.
No, that you shall see by and by (M. Gage quoth he) & turned to the xxii. of Luke, & there he read, Whē supper was done, Christ tooke bread, gaue thankes, and brake it, Eating goeth before the wordes of consecrating.and gaue to his Disciples, and sayd: take, eate, this is my body. Then they spake both at once: Here he saith it is his body.
Wood.
M. Gage, I doe not deny but he called it his body but not before eating, as I saide before. Wherefore I pray you marke the wordes. Christ sayd, Take, eate, I pray you Sir marke these wordes that he sayd, Take and eate, D. Langdale driuen to his shiftes.and thē he said, it was his body. So you see, eating goeth before. For he sayd: eate, this is my body. So according to the verye worde, I doe beleue it is his bodye. Whiche wordes made them both astonied.
Lang.
Why, then by your saying, Iudas eate not the body of Christ. How say you? did he not?
Wood.
Nay, I ask you. Did he?
Lang
I aske you.
Wood.
And I aske you.
Lang.
And I aske you.
Woodman.
Mary and I aske you. And I bid you answer if you dare for your life. For what soeuer you aunswere: vnlesse you say as I hauehave sayd, you will damne your own soule. For M. Gage, I protest before God, I would you should do as well as myne owne owne soule and body: & it lamenteth my hart to see how you be deceaued with thē: they be deceauers all the sorte of them. He cannot answer to this, but either he must proue Iudas to be saued, or els he must proue that it is no bodye before it bee receiued in fayth, as dou shall well perceiue by Gods helpe, if he dare to aunswere the question.
Gage.
Yes, I dare say he dareth. What? you neede not to threaten him so.
Wood.
Then let him aunswere if he can.
Then he sayd he knew what I woulde saye to him: therefore he was much in doubt to answere the question.
Lang.
Mayster Gage, I will tell you in your eare what words he will aunswere me, or euer I speake to him.
Wood.
Then he told M. Gage, a tale in his eare, & sayde:
Lang.
D. Langdale afrayd to aunswere to Richard Woodman.I hauehave told M. Gage what you will say.
Gage.
Yea, and I will tell the truth for both parties.
Wood.
Well, how say you? did Iudas eate ye body of christ or not?
Lang
Yea, I say Iudas did eate the body of Christ.
Wood.
Then it must needes f…llowe, That Iudas hath euerlasting life.The Catholicks hold that Iudas did eate the body of Christ. Argument. Who so euer eateth the fleshe of Christ hath euerlasting lyfe. Iohn. 6. Iudas did eate the fleshe of Christ: Ergo, Iudas hath euerlasting lyfe. For Christ sayth in the 6. of Iohn: Who so eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud: hath eternall lyfe, and I will rayse him vp at the last day. If Iudas did eate Chrystes body, I am sure you cannot deny but that he did both eat hys flesh, and drynke his bloud, and then is Iudas saued by Christes owne wordes. Therefore nowe you are compelled to say that it was not christes body, or els that Iudas is saued.
Gage.
Surely these be the verye wordes that M.D. tolde me in mine eare, that you would say to hym.
Wood.
Well, let vsus see, how well he can auoyd this argument.
Lang.
Iudas is damned, and yet he eate the body of christ: but he eate it vnworthely, and therefore he is damned:
Wood.
Where finde you that Iudas did eate the bodye of Christ vnworthely?
Lang.
S. Paules words misalleaged by D. Langdale.They be S. Paules wordes. i. Corinth xi. chap.
Wood.
M. Gage, I desire you for gods sake marke my wordes well what I saye. If S. Paule speake anye suche wordes there or in anye other place, if there be anye suche wordes written in al the whole Bible,1. Cor. 11. that euer any man eate the bodye of Christ vnworthely, then say that I am the falsest man that euer you heard speake with tongue. But in deede these be the wordes of S. Paule: Who so eateth of this bread, and drinketh of this cuppe vnworthely, eateth and drinketh his owne damnation; Making no difference of the Lordes body expounded.because hee maketh no difference of the Lordes body: that is, because hee presumeth to eat the sacrament of the Lordes body without sayth, making no difference betwixt the sacrament and other bread and drynke: And that is S. Paules meaning, and not that any man doth or can eate the body of Christ *Christ speaketh of eating his fleshe simply, without any determination of vnworthynes: that is simply who soeuer beleueth in Christ he shalbe saued neyther is any vnworthines in beleeuing in Christ.vnworthely. For who soeuer eateth the body of christ, hath euerlasting life, as is aforesayd in the 6. of Iohn. With which wordes one came from them to come to dinner in all the hast.
Gage.
I am sory. I woulde fayne heare more of this talke but we shall hauehave an other day wel inough.
Lang.
Nay M. Gage, I will neuer talke with him more: for he is the vnreasonablest man that euer I talked wyth in all my life.
Wood.
Then M. Gage put of hys capp and desired hym yt he would not refuse to talk wt me, and that it might not bee greeuous to hym. For he sayde: wee wyll seeke al the meanes possible to make him an honest man, and to keepe him from burning, if we coulde. For if my brother and I had not bene, he had bene burned ere this tyme. Thē there was great curtisie betwixt them.
Lang.
Sir, for your sake, & for my mayster your brothers sakes and for his fathers sake,Note well the working of this mans charitye, to doe for a man more at request, then for any compassion of the partye. and other of his fryendes sakes, that hauehave spoken to me many tymes with weeping teares, I will doe the best to hym that I can: but for no louelove nor fauour that I beare to him. I tell you truth.
Gage.
Woodman, you heare what M.D. sayth. When wyl you come agayne?
Wood.
Euen when you will send for me. For I am a prysoner, and cannot come when I woulde. Or if I shoulde desire to come, it will cost me money, and I hauehave none to geue: but if you send for me, it shall cost me none.
Gage.
Well, I will send for you on Friday or Saterdaye, at the farthest: for to morow I must ride forth of towne & I would fayne heare your talke.
Wood.
Sir I would be very glad you should heare oure talke alway, and I trust in God you shall heare me say no thing, but the word of God shall be my warrant. So M. Gage tooke his leaue and went his way to his lodgyng, which was right in my way as I went vntounto prisonward agayne: and when hee came without my Lorde Mountagues gates: there we met with one Hode of Buxted, a Smith. Then sayd M. Gage.
Gage.
Woodman, I had forgot one thing, that Hode hath brought me in remembraunce of as soone as I saw hym, for hee heard when the tale was tolde me.
Gage.
Hode, did not you heare when Smith of Framfield tolde me that hee sawe Woodman abroad in the Cittie at libertie?
Hoode.
Yea forsooth, that I did.
Gage.
Yea surely, and I was very glad, for I had wel hoped you had bene conformable. But I heard otherwise afterward agayne, that you had leaue of the keeper to go abroad and speake openly in the streetes, as you went vpp and downe.
Wood.
In deede so the Marshall told me to day.Lewde tales and false lyes raysed vponupon Woodman. But in deed I was neuer abroad since I came to prison, but whē I was sent for, and in deede the same time I was abroad with my keeper, comming from the Bysh. and as I was comming, euen not farre from ye Marshalsey, I saw goodman Smith, stād in a Wayne vnlading of Cheese & I asked him how he did, euen as I went by and neuer stayed for the matter, and therupon it did rise. So I departed frō them, with my keeper to the Marshalsea agayne, where I now am mery I prayse God therefore, as a sheepe appoynted to be slayne.