A Little Stone Found to be Counterfeit, Treatise · Part 2 · Section 12

A Little Stone Found to be Counterfeit · Treatise · Part 2 · Section 12

p. 340SECTION XII. Reply to M^r. Lockiers Anſwers to ſome Objections from SECTION 47. to the end, wherein ſeparation from not onelyonly this Church of Scotland, but all the Proteſtant Presbyterian Churches, as Idolatrous, is driven at.

section 1 MR. Lockier having hitherto gone about, as he could, to maintain that the power of the Keyes and Government of the Church of Chriſt, ought not to be in the hands of Officers and Governours ſet over the Church in the Lord, by the Lord himſelf; but in the hands of the whole Church, and that in the hands of every particular Congregation, independently and ſupremely without aſſociation in or ſubordination unto any common Eccleſiaſtick Government (which how well he has aſſerted and maintained we leave it to all underſtanding impartiall Readers to give their judgement) he applyes himſelf, to Anſwer ſome Objections againſt the things he has handled, as he ſayeth. But what Objections are they I pray? none of thoſe which are brought directly againſt the p. 341points maintained by him before this. Likely he found theſe too hard for him to grapple with, and therefore thought it his wiſedome to paſſe them rather by in ſilence. And the Objections he brings, are onelyonly ſome things which he conceived might been ſaid againſt his deſigne in caſting this Little Stone at Presbyterian Churches, to drive all good Chriſtians, if they might be affrighted, to ſeparation from them. A wicked and ſhamefull deſigne, eſpecially for a man profeſſing Godlineſſe to have ſet before him. I mind not here to inſiſt or enlarge myſelf upon the Queſtion of Separation from Churches, not onelyonly becauſe other learned men have ſpoken abundantly and well upon that purpoſe, namely my Reverend and Learned Collegue in the Miniſtrie, and Superiour in the ſociety wherein I live, M^r. Rutherfurd in his Peaceable Plea and Due Right: But alſo becauſe I find nothing brought by this Author, upon the mater, worth the ſtaying upon, in handling that mater. I ſhall onelyonly give ſome few notes upon ſome things the Author, I think out of hear of paſſion, hath vented himſelf in.

section 2 Having Sect. 47. objected to himſelf thus. You ſeem to be for ſeparation from a Presbyteriall Church. We find no ſeparation but in caſe of Idolatry. To this Sect. 48. he anſwers thus in ſumme. That not only heathens had their idolatry as Dagon, but alſo Chriſtians theirs, as a ſupreme Biſhop over all Churches, which he inſinuateth to have been the Papiſts Idolatrie. Alas! he might have given other inſtances of their Idolatry then this (as their worſhiping a breaden god, Crucifixes, Relicks, Saints departed, Images, &c.) then a ſupreme Biſhop, or Archbiſhop over the Church in ſuch a Nation (the Prelaticall Proteſtants Idol he would ſay) and then a combination of Biſhops over Churches (hereby meaning an aſſociat Presbyterie or Aſſembly Presbyteers Ruling more Churches, odiouſly calling them Biſhops) that to him is alſo Idolatry. So, that command 2 Cor. 6. 17. come out from one kind of Idolatrie, is come out from all; Or elſe that rule binds only to ſeparate from Heathniſh Idolatrie. What is not warranted by the Word is an Idol—Anſw. We ſhall not deny but that whatſoever is practized in the Worſhip of God, or ſet up as an Ordinance without Gods warrand in his Word, may be comprehended under Idolatry taking Idolatrie in a large ſenſe; but that every thing ſet up or practized p. 342in the Worſhip of God, or in Ordinances, is ſuch Idolatry as is a ground ſufficient to ſeparate from a Church wherein it is practized, as no true Church, is a conceit in it ſelf without warrand of the Word, nay directly contrare to the allowed practiſe of Gods people in the Word, both in Old and New Teſtament. This conceit of M^r. Lockiers, is very Brouniſme and rigide Separatiſme ingraine. But of this and the place 2 Cor. 6. 17. ſee enough in the Reverend Author whom I laſt mentioned. But as for aſſociation or combination of Churches, under a common Presbyterie, it is warranted in the Word of God, and ſo is his Ordinance, as has been abundantly proven, and what Mr. Lockier has brought to the contrare, we truſt has been ſufficiently refuted. And therefore let him conſider, his account he has to make to Almighty God, for ſo atrocious a calumnie as his branding it with the name of Idolatrie, and involving all the Reformed Orthodox Churches of Jeſus Chriſt, in the fearfull crime of Idolatrie. And as for his preſſing ſeparation from all the Reformed Churches as Idolatrous, I ſhall ſay no more, but bring ſome Godly men amongſt Independents themſelves giving teſtimony againſt him. Hear Mr. Hooker, ſpeaking in the name of the Divines of new England of the Congregations of old England. I would (ſayeth he) intreat the Reader that if he meet with ſuch accuſations, that we nullifie all Churches beſide our own—that we are rigide Separatiſts, &c. ſuch bitter calumnies, a wiſe meek ſpirit paſſeth by them as an unworthy and ungrounded aſperſion. That which that Godly man in name of many other Independent Brethren with him, intreats may not be believed to be thought or ſaid by them, accounteth it an unworthie and groundleſſe aſperſion, Mr. Lockier with open mouth ownes and proclaimes that and worſe: Then we ſee what the Diſſenting Brethren in the Aſſemblie of Divines ſay of their keeping communion with Presbyterian Churches, Papers given in to the Honourable Committee, &c. pag. 29, 30. holding communion with neighbour Churches in baptizing our Children (as occaſion may fal out in abſence of Miniſters) in their Churches, by occaſional receiving the Communion in their Churches; Alſo our Miniſters to Preach in their Congregations, and receiving theirs alſo to Preach in ours, as Miniſters of the Goſpel, as mutually their ſhall be a call from p. 343each other; when we have any caſes hard and difficult for our ſelves, to adviſe with the Elders of their Churches; in caſe of choiſe of Elders, to ſeek the approbation and right hand of fellowſhip from Godly Miniſters of their Churches; and when an Ordination falls out, to deſire the preſence and approbation of their Elders with our own; In caſe any of our Churches miſcarry through mal-adminiſtration, to be willing upon ſcandall taken by their Churches, to give an account as unto Sister Churches offended, and to eſteem and account (as we do) a ſentence of non-Communion by them, by Churches, againſt us, upon ſuch ſcandals wherein they are not ſatisfied, an heavy and ſad puniſhment, and to be looked upon, as a means to humble us, and an Ordinance of God to reduce us. If thoſe men, pillars of the Independent way, had accounted, as M^r. Lockier does, Presbyterian Churches to be idolatrous, would they have profeſſed to hold & retain ſuch Communion with them? Nay, do they not themſelves, alledge all theſe things, as Arguments to evidence that they are far from the mind of thoſe who accounts them falſe Churches. All this (ſay they) is more, then as if in nothing they were to be complyed with, nor their Churches to be communicated with in any thing which ſhould argue Church Communion, more is ſaid and done by thoſe who account them falſe Churches.

section 3 His ſecond obj. Sect. 49. Anſw. Sect. 50. is but a fiction ſet up by himſelf, that he may ſeem at leaſt, to gain a victory. We uſe not to reaſon ſo, many has been converted under Preſbyteriall Government, doth not this ſeal it to be of God. We know many have been, and doubts not but ſome are at this day, converted, under Papall Government which is very Antichriſtianiſme. But this, Sr, we tell you, that Presbyteriall Government in the exerciſe thereof, has been the bleſſed means under God of Converting ſouls, reduceing them from their ſinfull wayes to God and his Son Chriſt Jeſus, the terrour of evill doers, the preſerver of his Church, the Hedge that has guarded the Vineyard of the Lord from Foxes, the very Hammer of Errours, Haereſies and Haereticks, and therefore is ſo much at this day maligned and hated of all ſuch, that, in theſe lamentable times, has turned aſide unto their looſe and erroneous wayes. 'Tis true, Presbyterians takes p. 344it for no good Argument to prove Epiſcopall Government to be of God, that many were Converted under it; and believes it was a Government of mans invention: Yet, Presbyterians never thought of Churches under Epiſcopall Government, in which the truth of the Goſpel was Preached, and Sacraments adminiſtred according to Chriſts inſtitution, for their ſubſtance, as you think of Presbyteriall, that they were falſe Churches. But ſomething more of this in conſidering his next Objection and Anſw: thereunto, which fully unbowels the Authors deſign againſt Presbyterian Churches.

section 4 The Objection he frameth to himſelf is this. But many Godly being in the Preſbyterian way, is it not more proper to purge then to pull down all: To make uſe of the root, and not up with root and branch. To which his Anſwer in ſumme is: that it was juſt ſo objected by the Godly in England when the Preſbyterians would have down with our Epiſcopall Church; But it behoved to be up root and branch. So muſt now the Preſbyterian. The Lords controverſie has come about to it, and means the ſame. And thereupon he gives his plain and faithfull warning to his dear Brethren. Does this man know of what ſpirit he is? To ſpeak ſo Edomitelike of all Presbyterian Churches. Down with them, raze them to the ground, up with root and branch of them. Hoc Ithacus velit & magno mercentur Atridae. I think the man has wiſhed a peece of acceptable ſervice to Antichriſt, and his father the Devil. Lord grant him mercy of it. 'Tis none of our pleading for the Presbyterian way, that many godly being in it, therefore ſimply purging of Presbyterian Churches, were more proper then rooting up and pulling down all. If any man, Sir, has come to reaſon with you, thus poorly for Presbyterian Churches, we doubt not but ere that time he has dealt treacherouſly againſt the truth. We tell you, the Presbyterian way, is Gods way inſtituted in his Word, the contrary whereof you, but beggingly ſuppoſe in framing your Objection, but has not, nor ever will prove. Yet this we affirme, that albeit there be in Churches, corruptions, not only in the converſations of many perſons, but alſo in ſome things in the Worſhip and Ordinances, yet if they be not ſuch corruptions as everts and deſtroyes the foundation and ſubſtance of Religion: But there p. 345is therein, the ſubſtance of the Goſpel orthodoxly Preached, the Sacraments for their ſubſtantialls agreeable to their inſtitution, the way to be kept is, purge out the old leaven. And there is neither in Old nor in New Teſtament, warrand for ſeparating from, or pulling down and rooting up ſuch Churches. And as to that Mr. Lockier alledgeth, that Presbyterians would have down Epiſcopall Churches: Either he has not underſtood or miſrepreſented Presbyterians mind in that matter: Indeed Presbyterians were zealous to have the corrupt office of Prelacy plucked up, root and branch, becauſe a plant that God had never planted in his Church, and could not hear of a purging or circumciſing of it, that ſome would been at, by clipping from them officialls and ſuch other appendicles and limiting them thus and thus. But that the whole frame of Churches that were under Prelaticall government ſhould be razed down to the ground, pluckt up root and branch, caſt all in a heap of ruine, that out of the ruines thereof, their ſhould been picked out here and there ſome ſtones, to build up new Churches, it never entered in the thoughts of ſome Presbyterians. Nay, but on the contrary, even in the time that Prelats poſſeſſed their Government, ſound Presbyterians, as with the one hand they did fight againſt Prelats, the corrupt Officers; So did they at that ſame time with the other hand, againſt Separatiſts (with whom Mr. Lockier here agrees) maintaining the Churches of England to be true Churches from whoſe communion it was not lawfull to ſeparat. Witneſſe amongſt ſundry others, that grave and judicious peece written by ſundry non-conforme Divines jointly, in the times of Prelats, and publiſhed by Mr. Rathband, An. 1604.

section 5 But Mr. Lockier in his SECT. 53. goes about to prove that it is not purging that muſt be applyed to Presbyterian Churches, but they muſt be pulled down and pluckt up root and branch, or utterly ſeparated from. His diſcourſe in ſumme commeth to this much. When the forme of Churches or their matter is right, tho many things may be done amiſſe, then purging may be uſed, but when matter and forme both are corrupt and naught, as it is in Preſbyterian Churches. For forme, knit by ſituation, and by forrain forinſecall Elderſhips: For matter three parts of four naught, prophane, Atheiſts, of Elders and people; So that the p. 346Church ſtate is quite dead; 'Tis not a man but a carcaſe, not a Church, but a neſt of unclean birds, a den of theeves: to depart is proper. But to talk of purging ſuch, the dead, is diſcourſe full of weakneſſe, if not of unwillingneſſe to ſee and cenſure our own ſhame—…ſw. Verily S^r, I am of the mind that any judious man that reads your diſcourſe in this Section, will account it ſuch as is full of that which ye charge on others, weakneſſe and much worſe, I will not ſay the worſt that might be ſaid, but ſhall rather pray God to be mercifull to you in this matter, ſo blinded with prejudice and tranſported with paſſion, far otherwiſe then becometh a man profeſſing, to have the meek and wiſe Spirit of Chriſt. 1. If ſpeaking ſo broadly, he mean of Presbyterian Churches through the World (as indeed your diſcourſe here for pulling them down and ſeparating from them, runneth generally without any exception or limitation) that for their matter, three parts of four are naught, prophane atheiſts, &c. What bold, and blind conjecturing is this? 2. If ye mean only the Church of Scotland, and that therein three parts of four are naught, prophane, atheiſts, both Elders and people: Yet I ſay, who art thou that judgeth another mans ſervant? No doubt many amongſt us are nothing ſuch as they ought to be, and it has been alwayes ſo for the moſt part, in Churches from the beginning: But that they are ſo many and ſo groſſe, prophane, atheiſts, both people and Elders, for a man that is a ſtranger to the moſt part of our Churches, Elders and people thereof, to pronounce ſo peremptorly, is more then he dare anſwer to God or his own conſcience upon ſecond conſiderat thoughts. 3. Suppoſe it were ſo indeed, that three of four in Churches, were naught, yet, ſuppoſing in Churches, there be the true Doctrine of the Goſpel Preached, the Sacraments, for their ſubſtance and eſſentialls agreeable to their inſtitution, the acts of worſhip for matter pure, muſt therefore, Gods people ſeparat from thoſe Churches, and the true Ordinances and Worſhip of God therein: Or muſt the Churches be pulled down, and plucked up root and branch? Shew us warrand either of precept or practice for this in the whole Word of God. Nay the ſtrain of Prophets, Apoſtles, and Chriſt himſelf are clearly, as the Sun-ſhine, againſt it. How often was it ſo with the ancient Church, that we may p. 347ſay, more then three parts of four were prophane and naught? And yet did not the Godly and the Prophets of the Lord continue in the exerciſe of the Ordinances and Worſhip of God in that Church? Was it not ſo in the Church of the Jews, in the time of Chriſt being amongſt them upon earth? Did ever Chriſt for that require his Diſciples to depart and ſeparat from that Church? Or did he not himſelf, never a white the leſſe, continue in the Church communion thereof? Yea when in glory writing a Letter to the Church of Sardis, of whom he teſtifies, that they had a name that they were living, but yet were dead, and that there were but a few names there which had not defiled their garments: Yet his wiſe and meek zeal is not for pulling down and rooting up and ſeparating from the Church Communion in his Ordinances and Worſhip. But that is his direction, v. 2, 3. Be watchfull and ſtrengthen the things which remain and are ready to die.—Remember therefore how thou haſt received and heard, and hold faſt and repent. 4. But ſuppoſe that de facto, in ſome Churches the generality of perſons Elders and people were ſo groſſe and abominably prophane, that there were no living for godly ones amongſt them, is this a good Argument to prove that the very ſpecies and kinde muſt be deſtroyed and plucked up root and branch? Unleſſe that Mr. Lockier could ſhew that the way of Presbyterian Churches of it ſelf, in its very kind, allowes Churches to be conſtitute ſo, of perſons notoriouſly prophane, and atheiſts, that will not follow: But if he ſhall ſay this, we will avow it to be a ſlander. 5. When as he will have our Churches to be deſtitute of a right forme, becauſe they are not united by way of their Church-Covenant, but are knit together only by ſituation, and by forrain forenſicall Elderſhips: And upon this account, will have them no Churches, but only carcaſſes of Churches. It is utterly falſe that we make ſituation or cohabitation in place or a forrain Elderſhip the form of our Churches. We ſay according to the Word of God, that the form which gives the being to the Univerſall Church Viſible, and unto every member thereof, is the profeſſion of, and entering unto that generall Covenant with God in his Son Jeſus Chriſt, and whereby every Chriſtian is oblidged and engaged to walk in all the wayes of God and perform all duties towards God, and other Chriſtians, p. 348in all their relations, required of them, according as God giveth opportunity and occaſion to perform and exerciſe them. As for Mr. Lockiers Church-Covenant, diſtinct from that generall Covenant with God in Chriſt, as the form of a particular Church giving it the being of a Church, and right to the Ordinances of Chriſt, 'tis nothing elſe but a new device of men, having no warrand of precept or example in the Word of God either of the Old or New Teſtament: And his un-Churching of our Churches for want of ſuch a Covenant as this, is like many other things in this peece, has more boldneſſe in it then underſtanding or reaſon. Concerning this matter of the Church-Covenant. See M^r. Rutherfurd. Due Right of Preſbytery. Caudrey. Review of M^r. Hookers Survey, cap. 4. Gul. Apollon. Conſider. of certain Controverſies.

section 6 Mr. Lockier going on yet more to vent his Brouniſticall ſeparation objects to himſelf thus, SECT. 54. But will no my proteſt ſerve the turn? If things be corrupt in the Church, and I proteſt againſt them, may not I go on with that Church? As for inſtance: If they take in corrupt members or admit corrupt or impenitent communicants; And I proteſt againſt thoſe, may I not go on and partake with theſe, and yet be innocent, and enjoy as much preſence of God in his Ordinances, as if all were holy and good? To which he anſwereth, SECT. 55. 1. If proteſting were only words then ſuch a thing will do. But to ſay, the precious ſhould not mingle with the vile, and yet the man doth this daily and continually, is not to proteſt but to mock, and diſſemble; Becauſe here is not a meer paſſiveneſſe in this man, as to the going on in that thing which he proteſts againſt. 2. Again, in practical things, tis not ſo much a mans word as his practice, which gives the diſlike. If a man of an idolatrous Church, ſhould ſtand up and proteſt againſt the Maſſe, and yet ſtill go to Maſſe, I doubt how well this would pleaſe God, or deliver him from guilt. Naaman implicitely proteſts againſt the idolatry he had practiſed, that he would worſhip no God, but the God of Iſrael: and did he continue to bow down? Yes, ſay ſome, but he begs pardon for it. But moſt aptly in our laſt Engliſh Annot. The word being rendered in the time paſt: Pardon that I bowed down. 3. Proteſting is a piece of revenge, p. 349which is the vehemence of Repentance, and the clearing of ones ſelf, which how well this will accord with halting and halving, is worthy of deep thoughts of heart: Can two walk together, &c. 4. And our Brethren, when they proteſt againſt an Aſſembly do not ſubmit unto it.

section 7 Here is ſweet ſtuffe forſooth, very Brouniſticall ſeparation ingrain'd. That if any things be corrupted in a Church, ſuppoſe, wicked and ſcandalous perſons be retained therein and admitted to Ordinances, albeit therein be the true Doctrine of the Goſpel Preached, and worſhip, for the acts thereof, and other Ordinances for their ſubſtance right, Godly Chriſtians muſt ſeparate from ſuch Churches and may not in the very inſtituted Ordinances of Chriſt, and true exerciſe of worſhip, joyn with ſuch Churches, wherein ſuch wicked perſons joins with them. This is the drift and upſhot of this paſſage, as any diſcerning man may perceive, tho it be very intricately and confuſedly expreſſed: We ſhall not need to fall upon a refutation of this vile errour, which has been ſo learnedly and fully refuted, of old by the Orthodox Ancients, eſpecially Auguſtin and Optatus in Donatiſts, by the firſt Reformers in the fantaſtick Anabaptiſts. See particularly, Mr. Rutherfurds Learned Diſputes on this purpoſe, in his Peaceable Plea, and in his Due Right of Preſbytery. I ſhall for the preſent note but ſome few things on that which Mr. Lockier hath here.

section 8 And firſt to the propounding of the caſe in the Object. as it is ſo generally and comprehenſively expreſſed. If things be corrupted in the Church, and I proteſt againſt them, may I not go on with that Church? We owne not the affirmative of it. We acknowledge that it is not lawfull to go on with any Church, in the practice of things that are corrupt in it. 2. We acknowledge further that there may be ſuch corrupt things in a Church, or a ſociety taking unto them the name and profeſſion of a Church, as that it is not lawfull to go on with ſuch a Church or join with them in Church communion at all, as where the Worſhip is groſſely idolatrous, or Doctrine is publickly taught or profeſſed contrary to the very foundation of Chriſtianity. But bring the caſe to the particular corruption inſtanced by the Author, and then we ſay, that if in a Church, through negligence or looſneſſe of diſcipline, corrupt p. 350members be admitted, or wicked ſcandalous perſons be admitted to the Communion, the Godly indeed ought in an orderly way to teſtify againſt ſuch a corruption, to ſay to Archippus to the Miniſter and Rulers, take heed to your Miniſtry, to mourn for ſuch abuſes in the Church: But, ought not to ſeparat from that Church, and the exerciſe of the true Worſhip and Ordinances of Chriſt therein: But, may go on and partake with that Church in warranted acts of Worſhip, participation of the Sacraments, in the exerciſe of all Gods inſtituted Ordinances, and yet be free of the ſin of corrupt fellow partakers of theſe Ordinances, and of the ſin of Rulers ſinfully admitting ſuch; enjoy Gods preſence in the Ordinances, as well as if all joining with them were holy and good, and to ſay that other mens wickedneſſes in abuſe of Ordinances, prejudices or defiles theſe Ordinances to me uſing them aright for my ſelf, and teſtifying againſt, mourning for others abuſe thereof, is a wild errour contrary to the ſtream of holy Scripture both in the Old and new Teſt. as has been abundantly demonſtrated by theſe I laſt mentioned.

section 9 Now for his exceptions againſt this. To the firſt, to proteſt againſt a thing as evil and wicked, and yet daily and continually to go on in the acting of that thing and practizing it, is indeed a wicked mocking of God and man. But daily and continually to go on in the exerciſe of a lawfull and neceſſary duty, in the company of wicked perſons, againſt whoſe wickedneſſe I do teſtifie, and does all that is incumbent to me in my ſtation, is not to mock or diſſemble, nor to do the thing I proteſt againſt: I am but a mere paſſive, or has no concurrence to the wickedneſſe of others. But there is here in M…. Lockiers words, a groſſe ſuppoſing or begging of the very thing mainly in Queſtion, viz. That if wicked perſons be admitted to fellowſhip in a Church, as to the communion of the Lords Supper, that the thing a Godly Chriſtian ought to proteſt or teſtifie againſt, is all joyning in the Ordinance when ſuch wicked perſons are joining therein with them: This is a very begging of the thing in Queſtion and utterly falſe. The thing the Godly ought to teſtifie and proteſt againſt, is the wickeds preſuming to abuſe the Ordinance, and the Rulers ſinfull permitting them ſo to do. But to ſay he does or ſhould proteſt that no Godly perſon ought to uſe the p. 351Ordinance of God, or performe warrantable Worſhip, when wicked perſons either thruſt themſelves in with them, or negligent Rulers permits them ſo to do, is to ſuppoſe the thing in Queſtion, and is unwarrantable, yea contrare to the current ſtreame of the practiſe of the Godly under the Old and New Teſtament both, yea to the practiſe of Jeſus Chriſt himſelf in the Church of the Jews. To his ſecond exception. 'Tis true, in practicall things it is not ſo much a mans word as his practiſe which gives the diſlike. But the Queſtion is whether, the performance of a lawfull and neceſſary duty of worſhip, or exerciſe of a true Ordinance of Jeſus Chriſt, for inſtance, partaking of the Lords Supper to remember his death till he come againe, when and where wicked and ſcandalous perſons will thruſt themſelves in to do it prophanely, or are permitted by Rulers ſo to do, be ſuch a practicall thing as I am oblidged to diſlike, as a thing unlawfull for me to do, this is the Queſtion, the negative whereof we hold to be the truth of God held forth in his Word. The inſtance produced by the Author for clearing this his ſecond exception, viz. of a man in an Idolatrous Church proteſting againſt the Maſſe, and yet ſtill going to Maſſe, is ſo groſſely and abſurdly impertinent, that one may wonder how it could be alledged, in this purpoſe, by an intelligent man. The Maſſe is even upon the mater one of the groſſeſt Idolatries that ever was in the world. And for a man to go to Maſſe, when he pretends to proteſt to go againſt it, is to adde, to commiſſion of Idolatry, mocking of God and ſinning againſt light profeſſedly. So that Mr. Lockier, needed not make it a mater of doubting how well ſuch a practiſe ſhould pleaſe God, or deliver the man from guiltineſſe. But what is this, to participating of a true Ordinance of Jeſus Chriſt (for inſtance, the communion of the Lords Table) in a Church not Idolatrous, but may be, negligent and looſe in the exerciſe of Diſcipline, and permitting wicked ſcandalous perſons to participate in that Ordinance, when the Godly participating with them, teſtifies againſt ſuch abuſe in the Ordinances? Nay, can it be freed, from great raſhneſſe, (I will not ſay that which I might) to parallel theſe two together? But yet farther to bring in as a parallel to clear the buſineſſe, Naamans practiſing of heathniſh Idolatry in the houſe of Rimmon, amongſt a people not ſo much as profeſſing the true p. 352God, but an Heathniſh people profeſſedly, denying the God of Iſrael, what will intelligent pious men ſay to this? To the third exception. Whether Mr. Lockier defines proteſting well, to be a peece of revenge, the vehemencie of Repentance, let Lawyers judge. To my ſimple apprehenſion, proteſting, in the nature of it, has nothing to do with Repentance, as not importing guiltineſſe in the perſon proteſting, but being an act whereby he teſtifies againſt the ſinfulneſſe and unjuſtice of the dead of ſome others, that he himſelf may appear clear and free from the concurrence in or the acceſſion to it, and preſerves himſelf in a legall capacitie to challenge it before a judge competent, but whereas Mr. Lockier ſuppoſeth that a man proteſting or teſtifying againſt the intruſion or admiſſion of ſcandalous wicked perſons, into the participation of an Ordinance of Chriſt or lawfull neceſſarie act of Worſhip, if he participate in that Ordinance or Worſhip, when and where ſcandalous perſons participates therein, that in this the man halts and halves, he does but beg the thing which will not be granted to him, and he will never prove. And on begged ſuppoſitions to ſay, how theſe will accord, is worthy deep thoughts of heart, favours of contempt of Readers, if not of ſomewhat elſe. To the fourth, when there is a Proteſtation againſt the conſtitution and very being of an Aſſembly, 'tis true there is no ſubmitting to it by the Proteſters: But yet there may be a proteſting againſt ſome on or more particular deeds of an Aſſembly when the conſtitution and being of it is acknowledged, and to ſuch an Aſſembly ſubmiſſion is not refuſed or denyed by any principles of ours: So there may be a proteſting or teſtifying againſt ſome particular abuſes in a Church, and yet communion keeped with that Church in lawfull, true, neceſſarie acts of Divine Worſhip. But if the Author mean, that if ſuch an abuſe be in a Church, as that wicked perſons are permitted in it, or coming to Communion, that in that caſe, the Godly muſt proteſt not only againſt the deed, but the very thing of that Church, as no Church, and therefore muſt not joine therewith, in warranted acts of Worſhip, but ſeparate from its Communion altogether, he will not have the ſimile of Aſſemblies and our cariage to them, to go along with him, and it is in it ſelf without warrand contrare to the warrand of Scripture, and we doubt not to ſay a moſt Schiſmatick Aſſertion.

p. 353Mr. Lockier in Sect. 56. and 57. brings and anſwers a new Objection, and therein raiſeth much duſt to ſmall purpoſe, about the cauſalitie of Baptiſme, as to the conſtituting a Church. The Objection, is this, Doeth not Baptiſme give the forme of a true Church? and you ſay if the forme and foundation be right, it may be capable to purge it ſelf right. Sir, you are much miſtaken, if you think that we hold Baptiſme alone to give the forme of a true Church. We ſay it is the initiall ſeal and ſolemne entry and admiſſion of Members into the Viſible Church, ſo this, is a needleſs Objection brought in, it would ſeeme to vent a new conceit borrowed out of Mr. Hookers Survey, part 1. c. 5. of a Church without Baptiſme, of which a word ſhortly upon his Anſwer to this Objection: Only here we ſay this, that which gives form and being to a Church is the true Doctrine of the Goſpel and Covenant of Grace, for ſubſtantials at leaſt, ſolemnly avowed by the ſealing of Baptiſm, and Preached by a lawfull Miniſtry (Lawfull Miniſtry. I ſay, as to the eſſentials of a Goſpel-Miniſtry) theſe three at leaſt are neceſſary to give the being of a Goſpel-Church. And where theſe are, tho there be many corruptions and defects in the Church, yet it is capable to purge it ſelf from its corruptions, and to ſupply its defects, and to urge unchurching of ſuch a ſociety, and diſſolving of it, as no Church, or totall ſeparation from it, is not of GOD.

But come we to ſpeak a little to the Authors Anſwer to his Objection: Baptiſm (ſaith he) doth not give the form of Church memberſhip. So ſay we too: Profeſſion of the true Chriſtian faith is that which giveth the form of Church-memberſhip de jure, Baptiſm is the ſolemn ſeal thereof. But Mr. Lock. having in his Objection ſpoken of that which giveth form & being to a Church, how falleth he now to ſpeak of that which giveth form of Church-memberſhip? Is there no more requiſite to give form and being to a Church (we are now ſpeaking of a Church Viſible) but that which giveth form to Church memberſhip ſimply? This is a groſſe miſtake. Profeſſion of the Chriſtian Faith, ſimpliciter, is that which adaequately gives the form and being to Church-memberſhip ſimply. But to give form and being to a Church, there muſt be concurring with this, a Miniſteriall diſpenſation of the Doctrine p. 354of Faith and Ordinances, by ſuch means as Chriſt hath inſtituted them to be diſpenſed by. A Church exiſting without a Miniſtry, compleat in the nature and being of a Viſible Church, is a thing unheard of in the Word of GOD. See Hudſ. c. 6. vindic.

section 12 But to M^r. Lockiers purpoſe in hand. His aim here in his ſolution is to maintain that Baptiſm is no wayes neceſſary to Churchmemberſhip. We confeſſe it is not that which giveth the forme and being of a member or the jus, but yet we ſay it is neceſſary as the ſolemn ſeal of actuall admiſſion into the poſſeſſion of Churchmemberſhip in the ordinary way appointed by Chriſt: The Authors Reaſons for his Aſſertion are two. 1. There may bee a Church, and ſo conſequently members of a Church before Baptiſme. Miniſters are before Baptiſme, and the Church is before Miniſters, for out of it are they made and have their keyes, &c. See this abundantly daſhed by Caudry in M^r. Hookers Surv. c. 5. 2. Saith he, The Church was viſibleble when there was no ſeal, neither Circumciſion, nor Baptiſme, and then how could theſe conſtitute a Church? Anſw. What a childiſh reaſoning is this? There was a Church without Circumciſion and without Baptiſm, when neither of them was yet inſtituted by God. Ergo, after Circumciſion was inſtituted to be the ſolemn ſeal of his Church, there might yet been a Jewiſh Viſible Church without it, and now after Baptiſme is inſtituted to be a ſolemn initiall ſeal of the Chriſtian Church, there may be a Chriſtian Church without Baptiſme: he might as well ſay that there may be a Chriſtian Church without the profeſſion and belief of that Article: JESUS the Son of MARY is the CHRIST, why? the Church was ſometime when there was no ſuch Article to be believed.

section 13 He addeth to theſe two Reaſons, this prejudice: Beſides how much this gratifieth the judgement and practice of Anabaptiſts, any one may ſee, who conſtitute Church members by baptiſm, and how much Preſbyterians are againſt Anabaptiſts, all their writings ſhew, and how much they lay to our charge for uſhering in, and countenancing this Tenent. Anſw. How we, holding Baptiſm to be the ſeal and ſolemn admiſſion of Viſible Church members, do gratifie the judgement and practice of the Anabaptiſts in that which is Anabaptiſm, their excluding of Infants of Chriſtians p. 355from Baptiſm, I profeſſe my ſelf one that cannot ſee. The Author would have done well to have aſſayed to ſhew us how that any way advantageth their Tenent; Indeed he ſayeth true, that Presbyterians are much againſt Anabaptiſts Doctrine. But would hereby, faſten a peece of dottage upon them: Becauſe that being ſo much againſt that Doctrine, they yet maintain a Tenet concerning Baptiſme, that much gratifies it, but let him aſſay to clear this, for it is not enough to ſay, any one may ſee it. What ground there is to looke upon his Tenet concerning the allowed matter of the viſible Church as tending to Anabaptiſm, we have ſhewed before in the 1. part of this Examination; But it ſeems to me, that in this place the Author does not a little gratifie the judgement of the totall enemies of Baptiſm, and Socinians that accounts it needleſſe amongſt Chriſtians. While as he averres that there may be a Church (he muſt mean a Chriſtian Church elſe he ſpeaks not to purpoſe) before baptiſm, and that even before they be baptized, acting eminent Church acts, as making to themſelves Miniſters. If this, to averre that perſons may be a Church without baptiſm, and men may be Miniſters of a Chriſtian Church without baptiſm, if this Aſſertion be not advantagious to enemies of Baptiſm, I leave it to the Authors ſecond thoughts.

section 14 His laſt Ojection. But ſince this opinion prevailed, we ſee a vaſt toleration of all ſtrange and damnable Doctrines. This indeed is an heavy prejudice againſt your way, and the thing in fact is too too palpably true, and you could not here deny it, but only goes about to extenuat, yea and in a great meaſure to juſtifie it; and ſo much the more ſad is this charge againſt you, that not only hath this thing, eventually, followed, ſince your opinion has prevailed: But it tends to this in the very nature of it, while as it attributes to every ſingle Congregation, may be, of ſeven or ten perſons an Independent ſupream Eccleſiaſticall power in matters of Religion, ſo that, if any ſuch Congregation ſhould hold and teach any Haereticall Doctrine, there is no Eccleſiaſtick power on earth that can authoritatively interpoſe to reclaim or cenſure them. And for the Civil Magiſtrate, he, ſay you, muſt take heed how he uſeth his ſword for a weed-hook in theſe maculis mentis. But now briefly ſee we what the Author returneth in anſwer to this charge.

p. 356section 15 We are willing to be a terrour to evill works, and as unwilling to be a terrour to good: We are not ſo well skilled in divine things as to tell what every thing is in the bud: We are patient more then ſome would have us, till the bud bloſſome and bear, and when we ſee the fruit naught, upon all occaſions, we give our witneſſe againſt it, by diſpute, diſcountenance, and otherwayes as we underſtand the Word to warrand us. Anſw. Alas! S^r, are you ſo ill skilled in Divine things, as that you cannot tell what theſe many vile errors vented and taught by many in theſe lands are? which yet to this day are permitted without any terrour uſed againſt them; and think you that terrour enough againſt ſuch things, to Diſpute againſt them? (as for diſcountenancing them, we profeſſe, we can find no diſcountenancing of any maintaining errors amongſt us more then thoſe that are moſt orthodox, and for your other wayes of witneſſing againſt them we know not what it is) forſooth, S^r, a bold Haeretick will care much for all your Diſputes, yet I beleeve it is little teſtimony even this way, that this Author has given againſt the groſſe errours of the time: let him ſhew if ever he has moved his tongue, or imployed his pen, againſt Anabaptiſm, Antinomianiſm, Arminianiſm, Socinianiſm, and other groſſe errours, which he knowes aboundeth amongſt his Countrey-men both at home and in the Army in this Land, as … has done with much bitterneſs, againſt the Government of the Church of Scotland (which yet is according to the truth of God) and if not he perſonally, **I know not if M^r. Lockier has taken the Covenant.yet the ſupream Repreſentative of his Nation, and many of the prime Officers of the Army ſtand bound by the Covenant and Oath of GOD to maintain and defend.

section 16 But (ſaith he) if Tares and Wheat muſt grow together into the World, till the end thereof, the Civill Magiſtrate had need to be wary, how he uſeth his Sword for a Weed-hook, in maculis mentis, ſpots of the mind, leſt Preſbytery get a by-blow amongſt the reſt. Some mens weapons to fight in their quarrels, are to us as Sauls Armour to David, too heavy, we cannot tell how to wield them; Becauſe we take a litle ſtone and a ſling, when others would take an halter and a croſſe, do we then give a vaſt toleration? Not by might nor by power Civill, but by Gods Spirit in his Word and other Ordinances, we fight in theſe quarrels: Which weapons the p. 357not ſo terrible to look on, yet are mighty through God to eaſt down ſtrong imaginations of vain men. Anſw. 1. They are not meer maculae mentis, that we think the Magiſtrates Sword ſhould medle with: But to extenuat damnable Doctrines vented to the high diſhonour of God and ſeduceing of ſouls from the Truth of God to the deſtruction of their ſouls, under the name of ſpots of the mind, favours little of the true zeal of God, and to reckon in Presbyterie amongſt theſe is to call light darkneſſe, for which, I pray God grant the A…thor Repentance. 2. If the Civil Magiſtrate muſt uſe the Sword to be a terrour to evill works, either he muſt uſe it as a Weed-hook againſt ſuch Haereticall Doctrines, or you muſt ſay that Haereticall Doctrines are no evill works, which is to contradict the Word of God in terminis, Philip. 3. 2. 3. It is but an odious intimation that we would have an halter and croſſe taken againſt the teachers of every erroneous Doctrine. Indeed there be ſome blaſphemous Doctrines, (and not a few of them in the time) As a halter or a croſſe is too little for the obſtinat venters of them**I have heard with mine ears, ſōe boldly avow that every man anointed with the ſpirit, is as much a Chriſt, as JESUS the Sonne of GOD.: but there are others wayes whereby the Civil Magiſtrats might imploy their power for ſuppreſſing falſe Doctrines from being brought forth to the diſhonouring of God, if they were as zealous for Gods honour as they are for their own intereſt … 4. While as you do here take off the Civil power from medling with theſe ſtrange and damnable doctrines, and allowes no other means of dealing againſt them but by the Word and other ſpirituall Ordinances, if you do not give a toleration to them, let all men of common ſenſe judge, the Paſſages of Scripture hinted at by the Author for putting a colour upon this opinion of his, are miſerably abuſed. For the former, the parable of the tares, I refer the Reader to M^r. Rutherfurd.

For the latter, Zachar. 4. 6. Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit, ſaith the Lord of Hoſts. Certain it is from the whole context, that the Lords meaning there is this; Becauſe the people lately returned from Baylon and now imployed in the work of building the Temple, were much diſcouraged in the proſecution of the work, by the thoughts of the greatneſſe of the work, of the greatneſſe of the power and oppoſition of their enemies, and of their own weakneſſe, he would have them to know, that it was p. 358not by the power of the creature but by his own power, that, that work was to be carried through, and that therefore they ought not to be diſcouraged, ſeeing his power was ſufficient to bear down and remove the greateſt impediments and to make the weakeſt means effectuall to accompliſh the work. 5. It is true that the word and other Ordinances are mighty through God to caſt down ſtrong imaginations of vain men, but is it therefore a good Argument and Conſequence, the Word of God and other Ordinances are mighty through God to caſt down ſuch ſtrong imaginations, as Haereticall Doctrines, Ergo, the Civil Magiſtrate has nothing to do to ſuppreſſe the teaching of them by his Sword and power; If ſo, then it will as well follow, he has nothing to do to ſuppreſſe, or puniſh the out-breakings of carnall luſts in adulteries, thefts, murders, &c. Why? For I beleeve the Word and other Ordinances of God are mighty through God to caſt down theſe as well as the other.

The Author addeth, Order is but making to in Church and State, and therefore things are but diſorderly in this Nation, Warres make Lawes mute. Anſw. 'Tis well that at laſt he acknowledges that it is ſo, that errours are tolerat (for that is the charge he is anſwering to) and that this is diſorderly (which yet how it can conſiſt well with what he hath now been ſaying in the preceeding words, I ſee not) but if the excuſe for this be relevant, I leave it to God and all judicious indifferent men knowing the progreſſe of matters theſe ten or twelve years, and what ought to have been done, and might have been done, had men been willing to have it done, for ſetling truth, and removing things contrary to ſound Doctrine, as was undertaken by Covenant and Oath to the moſt high God to be done.

section 17 He ſhutteth up all, thus. SECT. 58. Finally, Chriſtians, take this anſwer to all that may be further objected. To be enquiring is honourable, but to be ever learning and never practiſing is dangerous; It was an heavy curſe that Jeremiah wiſhed upon himſelf, Jerem. 20. 17. It is an heavy curſe indeed upon that poor ſoul concerning whom it may be ſaid, the womb of truth is alwayes great with him, alwayes in pangs and throws with him, but cannot bring forth. Forſooth, Sir, you have ſoon done with it. We p. 359muſt take this for anſwer to all that may be further objected againſt that you have been pleading for. Stand not upon theſe Objections, but fall to practice, down with our Church Government and Churches to the ground (this to my conception is the ſcope of theſe words, elſe, I confeſſe I underſtand them not) ſure this man has had a wonderfull conceit of what he has been ſaying in this debate, that thinks we ſhould all be ſo convinced hereby of the truth of that which he has been pleading for, that tho we had twenty Objections moe againſt it then he has touched (as indeed we have many) yet we ſhould ſtep over all, and do what he biddeth us. I will crave leave to ſay it, I think no man of underſtanding beſide himſelf, will have ſuch a conceit of it. As for us, we tell him, we are not now to be enquiring about the matter he has been Diſputing againſt, I mean whether it be truth, or if the contrary maintained be him be truth. We have declared before God, Angels, and the World, that the Religion eſtabliſhed in this Church by the mercy of God, in Doctrine, Worſhip, and Government of the Church is the truth of God taught in his Word, and we are ſure it is ſo, and as we are bound by the will of God, and our vowes, and Covenants, to abide in the profeſſion and practice of this truth: So we truſt that God will eſtabliſh our hearts with his grace to abide therein. As for ſuch as are fallen away from it, we lament their caſe, that if they have been moved by any of theſe things preſented by this Author, that they ſhould kythed ſo ready to be turned about with every wind of doctrine, the God of grace awaken them to remember whence they have fallen, to repent, and do their firſt works, Amen.