George Fox Digged Out of His Burrows, Account of dispute 1 · Letter 6

George Fox Digged Out of His Burrows · Account of dispute 1 · Letter 6

p. 27My Answer was as followeth.

My Answer to I T. his 3d Assault upon me.MY ancient Friend, it pleaseth the most High to give to all mankind (his Children also and them especially) many bitter Cups, and that oftentimes by the hands of dear friends and [18] dear Relations, that we might fall more in love with himself then ever who isinfinitely more sweet, and even Holiness and Power and Wisdom and Love it self.

Your Lines (in this your third Fury against me) being full of Bitterness in themselves, are more bitter to my Spirit upon diverse accounts. But the most High and only Wise will have it so, and your judgment and Conscience (and mine) will have it so, yet that will not acquit us, we both say we must come to another Barr, and there stand or fall eternally.

In this, First. You tell me you willingly omitted the Particulars I mentioned as not concerning the matters in handling:A deceitfull way of Answ. I am not of your mind, it is an Easie yet a Suspicious way of answering, and implyes not only unwillingness, but a willing Ignorance and Guilt also: For is it not concerning the matter in hand (especially when so personally provoked) p. 28to vindicate our selves and friends, our Teachers and Apostles, our Spirits and Religion also?

2. Next you blame my subtle spirit, for not answering by Scripture or Reason your loving Admonitions: I gave you my Reason, shewing how simple it was for you to give fire upon me, and tell me my Paper was Scurrilous, full fraught with impudent Lyes and Slanders, and yet give me not one Scripture nor Reason to prove any of them to be so. 2. I shewed you how irrationall it was for you to think, that I should so suddenly renounce my understanding and Conscience and Positions upon the sudden sound of your Outcry Repent, Repent.

3. You tell me it is childish,The horrid Nakedness of the Q Women shews the worse then barbarous nakedness of their Spirits. bruitish and irrationall, to say that you are worse then Barbarians: Answ. I said not so in generall, you and all the world ought to abhor the particular case, viz. the stripping Naked of your Women and Maidens; a case worse then Savage and Barbarous, only practised by the Bruites, and sometimes by Indians, and Whores in their drink, when all Modesty and Reason is overwhelmed with more then common Drunkenness. Who can but abhor to think of such whorish and monstrous Immodesty, such an hellish Incentive to filthy Lusts, and that under the most holy name of the Spirit of God.

4. As to my first Position, you now tell me that it is childish and foolish for G. Fox to prove (I suppose you mean,the name for me to desire G. Fox to prove) what he and all friends disown,Quakers. and thou in scorn callest Quakers: Answ. I know the Quakers p. 29say [19] that name is given them in scorn, and yet we also know it it hath its denomination from those great bodily Shakings which have been believed to have come in mightily upon them by the power of Devillish spirits (for many Reasons of which afterward) However G. Fox in 370th. page of his Book in Folio writes thus in the title of each page [The Quakers answer. The Quakers Answer] I know what may be said; and I know may be said and justly to that excuse, and what shall be said in the Dispute following.

5. As to my 12th. Position, of Suffering of the Quakers, The Quakers Sufferings.and you say it is a Brat of mine own, and that is an evidence against me, and all os my Persecuting Spirit. Answ. I shall (by Gods assistance prove that you doe make it an Evidence of your Religion, and then it must be your one Brat and Bastard.

As to my persecuting spirit, the most High hath been a holy witness to my Travels and losses and hazards and other sufferings, in my vindicating and procuring Soul-liberty: and I humbly hope in his mercy, he will preserve me from being like many Quakers, fouly fallen from their former Christan Religion

6. You say, How darest thou blame me for not giving Scripture or Reason against thy railing and impious Positions, when thou challengest and assignest another to doe it G. Fox, &.c. Answ. I only blamed I. T. for being so fierce and furious, so hot and hasty in crying out a scurrilous Paper fraught with lyes and impudent slanders, and yet gave me not one Scripture or Reason against any one of them: common p. 30Modesty and humane Sobriety would have taught a little Patience, till G. Fox had answered, or untill you had answered something of Scripture or Reason your self.

7. Nextly you tell me of my Serpent-like spirit in witnessing against my neighbour secretly: To which I lay before the most High, I know not what you intend 2. I know it not to be any Crime (much less a serpent-like spirit as your railing pen phrases it) to give a true testimony, and witness in private and publick, even against the highest and dearest, in the matters of God and Truth, which ought to be only High and only Dear unto us.

8. As to Womens preaching Womens Preaching.in the Church, you tell me that I know not what that Woman is, Answ. I know the allegoricall Interpretations given of both those Scriptures, to the Corinths and Timothy, But where the holy Scripture is plain, and agrees 20] even with Nature it self; where the holy Spirit of God gives Reasons why Scripture should be fo expounded (which is an extraordinary signification of Gods soveraign will and pleasure) where else one part must be Literall and an other part Allegoricall, (which is most improper and not suiting to the Majesty and Purity of Gods Spirit) what can be soberly in the fear of God and with any sober reason collected, but that the most High, the God of Order (and all Order and Wisdom it self) is pleased there to set down the Order of his Worship in the Christian Congregations.

9. Concerning W Harris you tell me I shift p. 31of the matter, for you meant not W Harris his last Imprisonment: You prove it by my taking Oath against your Wife upon an other mans word on purpose to allay my furious spirit against W Harris. These are your words, which may be taken three wayes, but neither of them can I call to mind: God knowes I truly desire to See, Lament and forsake every Idle word or thought, which my soul may be satisfied is so: for I dare not goe beyond (as you proudly doe) that Direction of the Lord Iesus, dayly to cry [Forgive us our Trespasses] I dare most confidently deny that simple Charge, viz. that I should cry out Treason Treason, against your Wife and others, labouring to bring them into the same guilt with W. Harris. whose facts and courses others (of no small Authority and Prudence amongst us, with whome I advised) saw to be desperate high Treason against the Laws of our Mother England, and of this Colony also. When W Harris, sent his writings or Books to the Main and to the Iland, against all Earthly Powers, Parliaments, Laws, Charters, Magistrates, Prisons, Punishments, Rates, W Harris his former practices against all Goverment but that of Saints as the Quakers now speak.yea and against all Kings, and Princes, under that Notion that the People should shortly cry out, no lords no masters; and had in open Court protested, (before the whole Colony assembled) that he would maintain his Writings with his Blood. Was it my Fury (as you call it) or was it not Honesty and Duty to God and the Colony and the higher Powers then in England to act faithfully and impartially in the place wherein I then stood Centinell?

p. 32And it is not true that I sought his life as you upbraid me, much less theirs, who purposely (as the most high God is witness) were presented, that some prudent course might be taken by the Court for the preventing of their greater danger, and the Colonyes also. By your reason the Kings Majesty, his Iudges (yea all Iudges) [21] yea the King himself, yea the most High, and King of Kings shall be condemned as Blood-thirsty, bloody seekers of the lives (though of high handed wilfull and dangerous Transgressors) as though Iustice and Mercy, true Pitty and just Severity might not harmonize, and make up the blessed concord of Peace together.

10. You mind me again of my Books against Persecution, and yet my self a Persecutor of my peacable Neighbours to the Death, murthering the innocent, yea that I still retain a Murtherous mind, and you cry out against me, Oh murtherous Man &.c. To which I say, I am not better than David, nor (in this case) are you better than Shimei, who rak't up Stones and Dirt, and flung them with Railings at David, crying out Come out thou bloody Man, and this in the name of the holy Spirit also.

As to W. H. I never appeared In Town or Colony against him for any private matter (although many wayes extraordinarily provoked and wronged by him) but alwayes in Witness (as I humbly appeal unto God) I say in witnessing against his running down and destroying the Publick, My Righteousness as to my dealing with W. H.(as at this day) for his Private Covetous and Contentious Ends.

And for your self,The horrible Murthering of the Indians by Liquors which the Qu: have notoriously practised. who cry out so much of Blood and Murther for my being impartiall to God, to the p. 33King and the Countrey: I heartily wish that your hands were washed from the bloody trade of Liquours to the Indians, which even the Quakers have practised, telling the Indians that the Quakers only know God, and therefore would sell them Powder and Liquors cheaper, and they would not mix water with Rhum as others did: so that by many sudden deaths, what by Consumptions and Dropsies, the Barbarians have been murthered, hundreds, if not thousands in the whole Countrey, and more in this Colony than in any part of the Countrey beside that I have heard of, against which I have witnessed from Court to Court in vain.

11 You ask me how I can think as low of my self, as you high of G. Fox, when I boast of Education Experience &.c.

I answer, I boast as Paul did, who confest himself the least of all Saints, and the chiefe of Sinners; and yet reckons up the Priviledges end Favours, which God had vouchsafed to him, against the foule Clamours of his malicious and envious Opposites, the false Apostles.

12. You conclude with advising my Repentance, and you propose to me the case of Nineve, telling me that forty dayes is a short Speech.

22] Answ. I humbly beseech the Lord to help you and me, humbly and faithfully to examine our true laying of that Foundation of a true Repentance, which is a totall turning of our Soul or Spirit unto God; not out of Fear or self ends, as Dissemblers do; but in Mariage-love with God that it might be said unto us, thy Maker is thy Husband.

p. 34As to your special Hint to me of forty dayes, I can say it (through infinite mercy) that more than forty or fifty yeares, I have been acquainted with Death, and have (not seldom) familiarly discoursed with the Grave and Pit of Rottenness: I have desired to be ready at a minutes warning, waiting for a wind to transport me (as Paul speaks) unto Christ Iesus in Abrahams Bosome which is best of all. I pray you to know that I believe there is a black Familiar that haunts the Quakers, it may be he whispers to you that within forty dayes you shall be ridd of me except I repent;They were the Dog-dayes when these hot and doged barkings were made at me. he may see into the crazy temper of my house of Clay. (These Dog-dayes not to continue and abide a little of that time) Or God may suffer him by some immediate Revelation to employ some malicious soul to Murther me, that this foul Lyar and Murtherer may extoll and predicate himself in print by your Pens, that he was a true Prophet, applauding and triumphing in the righteous Judgment of God against a Blasphemer of your gods and godesses. I believe that every Hair of mine head, and every Minute of my Life is in the mercifull hand of the Father of Spirits. I doe not simply and blasphemously think as G. F. that my Soul is a piece or part of God;Death and the Resurrection. nor can I (as the unbelieving Quakers) slight the Rising of my body; Steven fell asleep, and so (among Stones or whatever his holy Wisdom pleaseth) I humbly hope shall I, and rise again in the Morning.

R. W. Prouidence, July 30. 1672. (so called)

p. 35HItherto (gentle Reader) have been the Skirmishings of my Forlorn-Hope; I hasten now to the relation of the main Battle, for after this my third Letter and Answer, I heard no more of that foul and slanderous spirit: I should rejoice to be instrumentall to his casting out of my ancient friend I T. however he pluckt in his horns as G Fox himself did, and I have yet heard no further.

Within some few dayes after that our Deputy Governour had [23] delivered my Paper to them, the strange Quakers (as was agreed with G. Fox) came to Providence. The first Intervenience at Providence of the Qu. and my self.Iohn Stubs, Iohn Burnet, and others, and came to my house six or seven together: their Salutations were (like the meetings of their dumb spirit) in silence. I bid them welcome &.c. Iohn Stubs began and said, they had received a Paper from me, and they came to me to tell me, that they accepted my Offer, and that they had appointed (according to the liberty given them by my self in my Paper) the 9th. of the present August to be the day at Newport. I told them they were welcome, and the more welcome because they brought me tidings of their Resolution: for I longed for Opportunityes of such Exercises, to which I thought the most High invited us by our precious Libertyes &.c. I added that my Paper was in the first place directed to G. Fox: but they suddenly catcht at my word,G Fox his cunning Departure. and Iohn Burnet told me that G. Fox was departed before my Letters were opened, and that G. Fox never saw my Paper (and probably as afterward in the dispute he spake honestlie not knowing the Mistery) Iohn Stubs added that my p. 36Paper gave liberty to G. Fox or his friends. I sai… therefore I would not fail (if God pleased) to meet them at the place, and by nine in the morning, on the day they had appointed.

They departed (after drink offered and accepted by some) but the next morning being the first of the Week I sent them word in writing, that diverse of our Neighbours were grieved that the Conference should be carried away from Providence to Newport wholly,My care of ingaging them to my whole Offer and of discussing the latter seven at Providence. (as some of them had also spoken) I told them that the accepting of my Proffer necessarily included the Conference about the latter seven at Providence: I told them their Consciences and Credits lay on it, and therefore desired them to six on a day for the dispute of the latter seven at Providence before their departure hence. This Paper was delivered to one of their Company in the room where they were together, but whither on purpose or (as tis possible) by mistake, they say the Paper was lost: so receiving no Answer from them, I late in the evening sent them another writing, signifiing, that I could not hold my self ingaged to meet them at Newport about the first seven, without their promise of discussing the latter seven at Providence. Then they wrote to me that I had seemed willing, and that they had given notice, and the Countrey would come in, therefore they challenged me to appear and prove my malicious [24] and bitter charges against them, and withall promised that upon the finishing of the first seven at Newport, some of them would give me a meeting a Providence &.c. Upon the receipt of p. 37this, I sent them a third writing signifiing that I rested in their Promise, and therefore (if God pleased) I would not fail to be with them at the time and place appointed. And God graciously assisted me in rowing all day with my old bones so that I got to Newport toward the Midnight before the morning appointed.

Then I sent them a fourth Paper (with a Copie of my first that miscaried as they said) and signified to them, that it would be convenient to agree about some Order of Transition, or passing from one position to another: as also since they were many and I but One, I presumed their Reason told them that I expected but One at once, and that if another desired to speak, the first should hold his peace; as also I signified that some were scrupulous of going into the Quakers Meeting-house, Scruples about meeting in the Quakers Meeting house at Newportand therfore I desired some thoughts about it: they thought it convenient to send H. Bull to request me to goe to his house to them; I went; they urged the Capaciousness and Conveniency of their house, and I told such as scrupled, that it was one thing to goe into a Iewish Synagogue, or a Popish Chappell to worship, or countenance their Worships: another thing to Profess and Contest against them, in which respect Paul disputed many dayes in the Iewes Synagogues against them, and I could freelie goe into the Popes Chappel, to dispute against the Pope and his Worship.

I knew our aged Governour Mr. Nich. Easton & other Magistrates (of their judgment) would be there,the way to Conquer. & so the Civill Peace maintained, & I had a p. 38strange assurance given in to my spirit from God in answer to my poor requests &.c. viz, that by Moderation and Patience I should conquer their Immoderations and impatiencies, I therefore thought it in vain to spend time about a Moderatour: Tis true they gave me no Answer either by Speech, or writing concerning their coming on me one at once, but to their seeming great advantage they constantly fell on me all at once, and one of them William Edmundson with grievous Language and insulting.

When I came into the place aforesaid I found three able and noted preachers amongst them,The Persons disputing with me. viz Iohn Stubs, Iohn Burnet, William Edmunson sitting together on an high Bench with some of the Magistrates of their Judgment with them: I had heard [25] that Iohn Stubs was learned in the Hebrew and the Greek (and I found him so) as for Iohn Burnet I found him to be of a moderate Spirit, and a very able Speaker.W Edmundson described. The third W. Edmundson was newly come (as was said) from Virginia, and he proved the Chief Speaker, a man not so able nor so moderate as the other two: For the two first would speak Argument, and discuss and produce Scripture: but William Edmundson was very ignorant in the Scripture or any other Learning: He had been a souldier in the late warres, a stout portly man of a great voice, and fit to make a Bragadocia (as he did) and a constant exercise meerly of my Patience: he would often Vapour and preach long, and when I had patiently waited till the Gust was over, and began to speak, then would he stop my mouth with a very unhandsome Clout of a p. 39grievous Interruption: so that sometimes I was forc't to play the Moderator, and to protest that such practises were against the sober rules of Civillity and Humanity. It pleased God to help me with such Patience to weather them, that Iohn Stubs openly confest twice,I Stubs his Ingenuity. that though some others had given them some interruptions, yet that I had not done it.

I took my Seat at the other end of the house opposite to them,The beginning of the Dispute and began telling them that the most High was my witness, that not out of any prejudice against, or disrespect to the persons of the Quakers (many of whome I knew and did love and honour) nor any foolish Passion of pride or boldness (for I desired to be sensible of my many decayes of my house of Clay, and other wayes) nor any earthly or worldly ends I had that occasioned this trouble to my self and them.

I was first commanded this work from Heaven: The Occasion of it.Why should not this Argument be good for mee and for others as well as the Quakers? they say their commands are immediate (for Interpretations are immediate) but I say they herein suffer Satan to cheat them; for they say they pray, they fast, they wait, they listen, they judge of the motions that arise within them, and so have I done. The great maker and searcher of all hearts knowes, that none but his holy Majesty was privy to the Conception of this business.

1. My end was,My ends. the vindicating his most holy Name, which my Soul saw was trodden in the dirt by Sathan clothed with Samuels Mantle, and the p. 40bright garment of an Angel of Light, which once he was, but pride deceived him.

26] 2. I had in mine eye the vindicating this Colony for receiving of such persons whome others would not, we suffer for their sakes, and are accounted their Abettors: that therefore together with the improvemeut of our Libertyes which the God of Heaven, and our Kings Majesty have graciously given us, I might give a publick testimony against their Opinions in such a way and Exercise, I judged it incumbent upon my Spirit and Conscience to doe it (in some regards) more than most in the Colony. I may also truly say that

3. I had also in mine eye,Nicholas Davis drowned at Newport a little before the Dispute. that this exercise might occasion some Soul Consideration in many. I told them that we had a dolefull Alarum and instruction lately, we were taught what Salvation and saving was, in the late death and drowning of a person so known to us (and all N. England) Nicholas Davis. I told them our case, and the case of all mankind is his (in Spirituall and Soul matters) Oh a world for an Oar, a Rope, a Plank. Only it must be to all of us our work, to try whether our Saviour our Salvation be reall, and not failing in so great a Straight.

Some of these blessed ends it hath pleased God to propagate by this occasion all this Colony over, and all of us round about have put forth our selves in Disquisitions and Searchings after the true grounds of the Christian Religion and Worship.

I had many thoughts of beginning such an exercise with Prayer unto God for his Presence:What Prayer was used. but I p. 41knew I could not joyn with them nor would they owne my Prayers: I had thoughts (as Eliah among the Baalites) to have prayed in the singular number: But some Considerations made my spirit content with this kind of Petition unto God: For not only in my Closet and my heart, but publickly before them all I said, I doe humbly hope and beg of God the Father of Spirits so to order and direct our Spirits in these our Agitations, that his holy name may receive glory, and the Soules of all of us some Soul-profit and Advantage.

I began with the first Position, which I think W. Edmunson also read out of the Paper. viz.

That the People called Quakers are not true Quakers according to the Scriptures.The first Position.

1. I said I knew they did not owne that name Quakers, as imposed on them by God, or taken up by themselves,The name Quakers. but given them in scorn and derision, as G. Fox, Ed. Burrowes (and I had heard Iohn Stubs who joined with them) declared, and that 27] one Gervace Bennet, a Iustice in Derby first so called them in the year 1650 And yet I had cause to judg that the name was given by Iustice Bennet and others to them from that strange and uncouth possessing of their bodyes. with quaking and shaking of their Bodyes even in publick Assemblyes and Congregations, which extraordinary motions I judged to come upon them, not from the holy Spirit and Power of God, but from the spirit and power of Sathan for diverse Reasons.

First. Although they pretend that Moses and David and Habbacouck and Daniel were Quakers, yet p. 42as to the Christian Profession, and the dayes since our gallant fore-Fathers in Germany (at Spiers) protested against the whore of Rome, and from that Prostestation, by the Papists, they were called in scorn and wrath the Protesters, or Protestants (about 150 years since) unto this day.The Rise of the word Protestant. I say as to the Protestant Professors and Confessors, the Quakers are but a new upstart party or Faction risen up little above 20 yeares since in the northern parts of England, Lancashire &c. Tis true, tis probable they are the Offspring of the Grindletonians in the same Lancashire about two yeares before,The Grindletonians. who held those two grand Points (though many wicked paths of Doctrine aud Practice were amongst them) viz. 1. That God doth all. 2 They could not sin, taking it according to the Letter. These Grindletonians were the Offspring of the late Nicholaitans, (as all of them are in truth justly so called) from Henery Nichols who put forth his Books of the same Poison in K. Iames his time, (which long since I read) and were confuted by many, and by Mr Ainsworth and Mr Robinson, precious and powerfull Witnesses of Christ Jesus. H. Nichols aud his Nicholaitans were the Litter of those Spirittualls and Libertines which spread in Germany and France in Calvin's dayes;The Libertines. against whome that heavenly soul, gave his powerfull and heavenly witness in his Book against the Libertines. These Libertines Satan raised up about the Protestant Reformation from the ruines and rubbish of the old Manicheans and Gnosticks, and other blind Guides who swarmed in the first third and fourth Christian Centuryes, until the Pope p. 43swallowed up all the lesser Serpents, and so became a Dragon with seven Heads and ten Horns, forcing all with fire and Fagot to deny Christ Iesus, and to martch under Anti-Christ (the Anti-christ the man of sin) his Colours.

Some of these Particulars I could not then express, but think [28] fit here to remember the former dayes, for Information of such as doe desire it.

These People came from Lancashire and other northern parts to the Southward of England and to London. I spake with some of their Chief then in London, I knew it was the old proud spirit which had appeared in so many foul lyes in their former deceived and deceiving Leaders, and I was the more confirmed in my thoughts when I saw their foul spirit so transport them, not only in lying Doctrines, but lying Quakings and Tremblings, lying preaching through the Streets Repent, Repent: and lying and abominable Nakedness of men and women, untill their ugly Child and Daughter Rantisme rose from their Bowels and practised Nakedness of men and women in the Streets and in their religious Meetings, The Ranters are but the Quakers Daughteras Adamites: when it is notorioufly known they fell into many uncleannesses and Adulteryes. To my face and to the world in print they maintaind, there were no sins in them: Saying That the Saints could not sin, and God did all and was all, and they were as pure as Adam and God himself, this is known by the Writings extant &c.

2. Again I said unto my Antagonists that the manner of these quakings and shakings were not as of those quakings and tremblings of David, Moses, and p. 44the Corinths receiving Titus with Trembling, or the working out Salvation with Fear and Trembling: True Quakingfor that may many wayes be proved to be the Soul and Spirit, out of a holy Aw and Dread of the Majesty of Heaven with whome we have to deal, who only can pitty and help us in our deplorable and forlorn conditions: Hee it is who worketh the Will and the Deed, and therefore with deep impressions of Aw and Dread we ought to attend upon all his holy meanes appointed, wherein (as of old in the Tabernacle and Temple) he hath promised to come to us. Beside, as it is naturall for the Body to tremble when the mind doth, as we see in many Persons in the beginning of a Battle, or going over a deep Water, or going to suffer Death, or looking over a high Clift into the sea &c. So when the Bodies of those holy men, or any now doe so tremble Experience proves it that it is no ordinary motion, but extraordinary, and upon extraordinary occasions, and those holy and heavenly Occasions, as may be instanced.

But the quaking and shaking motions of the Quakers (as I shall prove) they proceeded not from those holie Affections [29] proper to Gods Children,The horrid shaking of the Quakers. so also they were horrid and monstrous casting their bodies into horrid and monstrous motions and Gestures which mine eyes have seen: Besides the abundance of notorious Instances, what strange horrid motions are those which Theora Iohn (as he madly calls himself) and Iohn Toldervy were tost and tumbled up and down with? which cannot p. 45be imagined to proceed from the holy Spirit of God, but from Sathan to delude and cheat poor sinners with.

To this purpose I told them at the first coming of this spirit to London and Westminster, some Parliament men told me that themselves went to one of the Quakers Meetings about Charing Cross, but were so affrighted with the shaking of their own bodies, and of their Chairs and Stooles under them, that they could never again be got into their Assemblyes.

I added,Satans Counterfeit motions. that such Shakings, Motions, Extasies, &c. were known to be the frequent workings of Sathan upon his Servants in all ages, Such were the furious motions of Baals Preists, the motions of the Possessed mentioned in the Gospells, and other Historyes, and known to be amongst the Barbarians, The Quakers Answer.our Neighbours about this time. Iohn Burnet and William Edmunson rose up and said that I had laid many deep and heavy Charges upon the people of the Lord, which I should never be able to prove: I had denied them to be Christians, and so had wronged the good Spirit of God in them, and their Profession of worshipping God in the Spirit: Yea I had taken away their being (as men) out of the World, as a dangerous People to Nations and Kingdomes & Common-weales, yea to Kings & Princes, and so not fit to live amongst men in the World. These Speeches were often uttered and enlarged by one or other of them, and that with Zeal (and Passion in W. Edmunson)

I waited patiently till these Gusts of their angry p. 46Spirit was over, and then I told them I had not wronged them in a tittle: But by the help of the most High I would make all good against them, & toen leave it to every mans and womens Soul to judge at their own Perill.

About this time Iohn Stubs alleadged that of Paul, Phil 2. Work out salvatson with fear and Trembling.

I replyed I in no way opposed the awfull and most serious impressions of Gods Majesty in all his appearances & ordinances upon the Soules and Spirits,Quaking and Trembling yea and Bodyes of Gods Children. [30] But I denied that those places to the Corinthians and Philippians concerned any such bodily shakings and quakings as we now debated.

Beside I said if Quaking and Trembling were a Command and an Ordinance,No Ordinance of God and institution of God to be practised, then was it constantly to be practised (as the Iewes say of Cain that the Mark which God set upon him was a constant Trembling) Or if not alwayes, yet alwayes in Worship, or if not alwayes in Worship yet at some certain times. But the plain truth is,Counterfeit Quaking and Trembling the Devill will be Gods Ape in most things: He subornes and substitutes a bastard Quaking and Trembling of the body in Imitation of David, Moses &c. on purpose to thrust out the true Fear and Trembling which ought to be constantly in us, raising up all our Affections and all within us to a due sence of the Terror of the Lord, the dreadfulness of our Danger, and the wonder of our Deliverance (which we can never make too sure) from sin and wrath to come to all eternity.

p. 47I also declared, that the most High and holy one, was free as he pleased to cause the trembling of the Soules of his People to over flow with influence upon their Bodyes also, asin Moses, David, Daniel, Habakkuk, Paul, &c. this is like to be in some extraordinary cases and Conversions or turnings to God, as Paul's was, and that especially in bringing of great Sinners or old Sinners unto himself &c.

There were some few Speeches, some from the Governour and his Wife, and some few others that spake, some in favor of, and some against the Quakers, but neither did my Opposites nor I so far attend them as to engage with them, excepting some Turnes that were between William Edmunson, and William Hitchcock (an Inhabitaut of Newport) who (as others did) witnessed against their upbraiding me with my age (Old man, Old man &c.) as also for their Interruptions.

Mine own Brother Mr Robert Williams, School-Master in Newport, desired to speak: nor he nor others dissenting from them could be permitted, except they would set their hands to my Paper.A Paper put in of two great Considerations My Brother (unknown to me) put in a paper to them, which he took the liberty to read, desiring that two things might be answered by the Quakers. 1. The matter of the true sence of Sin as Sin. 2. Of the Materiallity of such a Person as the Lord Iesus Christ, and the materiallity of his [31] Bloudshedding. This Paper they took but waved it. W. Edmunson openly charged me with breach of Covenant, viz. That if any would speak on my behalf, they should set their hand to my Propositions. Tis p. 48true it was desired by one of them at my house at Providence, that if any joined with me, they should subscribe to my Paper.The unequall Termes of the Quakers enjoining Subscription. But I answered that I was alone in the Business, I had not consulted with any others but the God of heaven himself: so that I denied vehemently that there was any such agreement, or any colour for it. Besides it was ridiculous to put either such a Bar and Limit upon any mans spirit, and least of all upon Gods Spirit, viz, that no man should desire leave to object or querie &c. except first he would subscribe my Proposalls But I took the boldness justly to charg them with palpable and gross Partiality viz. that W. Hitchcock and others, (opposing or dissenting) might not speak, but W. Harris, W. Dyar or any favouring of them might speak without exception,& their open Partiality. because all that speak for their ptetended light, it must be supposed that they speak from the Spirit of God himself: others out of Ignorance, Malice and Envy: this will appear more afterward.

However, there were these few debates about the liberty of speech in the Auditory and By-standers, and the Quakers deniall and enjoining of Subscription: yet the most High, Father of Spirits did so compose all spirits, that it was wonderfull that such Opposites should goe through such a work and Conslict all day untill night, without more Interruptions and Disturbances.

I was ready and waited to put forth my third Reason to prove they were not true Christian Quakers, it was from Isai. 66. To this man will I look that is poor and contrite, and trembleth at my Word. I p. 49told them that G. Fox in his Book all along was so far from trembling at the Word of God in the holy Writings or Scriptures, that he could not endure they should have that name,The Quakers evill spirit toward the holy Scriptures. or be once called the Word of God, Tis true I know his pretence, that Christ Iesus is called the Word of God, Rev. 19. But I know tis true also that he grants the Scriptures to be true, and inspired from the holy Spirit of God, and to be Gods words, though not his Word. Well, to pass by the simplicity of the Distinction, and let us take what he grants, and is it not prodigious and monstrous Contempt that these holy Words, this holy Book and Writing of God should be so undervalued and slighted,The Light of each man in the World above the Scriptures. yea vilified [32] and nullified, if compar'd with their pretended new found Light within them, which was (say they) before the Scriptures, and gave forth the Scriptures, and therefore was above the Scriptures and gave forth the Scriptures, and therefore was above the Scriptures, and therefore is not judged or tried by the Scriptures, but they by it. Yea, and this light must be in every one of mankind in the whole World: Hence it was that these holy Writings were so disused in their own private Readings, in their Publick Worship,The Pope and the Quakers great affection and ownness against the holy Scriptures. and in their Families.

I told them God was little beholding to the Pope and the Quakers for their humble Reverence and great Affection to his holy Letters, Declarations and Proclamations. The Pope had his Infallibility as well as they, his immediate Inspirations as well as they: They both owned, and yet did not owne the holy Scriptures, the Pope and they only must p. 50interpret Scriptures, they only give the Sence, they only judge all Controversies: yea they dispence with the Scriptures, and if they were quite lost and burn'd and not a Copy of them left in the World, yet there were no loss but a good Turn, a good Riddance, for then the Pope and the Quakers Infallible spirit and its immediate Inspirations, would be more esteemed and set by.

I produced an Instance of one Thurston an Apostle of theirs who came to Providence with extraordinary long hair hanging over his shoulders;An Instance of a long-haird profane Qua. slighting Nature and the Scriptures. It was so long that an aged Soul (captivated for present amongst them) the wife of C.S. demanded of him why he ware it so long since Nature it self did teach it to be a shame for a man to wear long Hair, as the holy Scripture affirmed? He would not say, He car'd not what Nature or the holy Scriptures said, but he said as much in effect (as she told me her self, and may with true fear and trembling still think on it) viz. when that God that bid me wear it, bids me cut it off, the will I cut it off. As if he would say, what tell you us of the teachings of Nature (as we see in that monstrous case of their womens Nakedness) or what tell you me of Scripture? I have a Light within me that made that Light, was before it, gave it forth, & is above it. This mans hair was so offensive and odious, that meeting of me, and saying, Fear the Lord God, I could not but answer him in these words, viz. What God dost thou mean a Ruffians God? alluding to that of Paul to Titus, They profess to know God, but in their Works they deny him.

p. 5133] I told them the rage of the Devill in all Ages had been most fierce against these heavenly Records, in which the most gracious God and King, out of the infinite depths of his Wisdome and Goodness, had provided for the Ages and Generations to come the glorious Appearances of the eternall Invisible King in the former Generations of mankind from the Creation of the World, as also the Wonders yet to be finished till time should be no more, all which were in the holy Scriptures.

I remembred them of a profane bloudy Wretch in Ireland who in the late horrid Massacre, An horible Instance in Ireland against the Holy Scriptures.hunting (among other bloudie Wolves) after the Goods and Lives of the Protestants, found a Bible, and with Indignation (the same which I believe is in most Papists and Quakers) he flung it into the Kennell, and stampt upon it with his feet saying, A Plague of God take this Book, this hath caused all the Quarrels among us.

Whether I spake all these Particulars at one individuall time or Turn I cannot clearly remember, only I am certain thus I spake and more.

My Opposites once and again had Turnes of Speech, but still the only sum of all was, that they owned the Scripture, but yet the Spirit that gave it forth was above it, withall they urged that I could not prove where in the Scripture, the Scripture was called the Word of God.

I Answered, The Scriptures the word of God.That many things were infallibly so, and true although not in so many Terms and Words mentioned: But yet there were abundance of Scriptures wherin the Prophets did expresly say, p. 52Thus saith the Lord, The Word of the Lord came unto me, and Hebr. 1. The Lord spake diverse wayes, and at diverse times in the Prophets, but now he hath spoken by his Son. Sure his Speech is his Word: Hence the Word of God is the Word preached, as Paul, 2 Thess. 1. Not as the word of man, but as it is indeed the Word of God, Act. 19 which preaching of the Word & growing of the word were not competent and proper expressions to be affirmed of the perfon of the Lord Iesus; especially I told them I would use the words of the Lord Iesus when he fought with the Devil that famous Combate, Math. 4. No other Weapon did he use against him but foreign It is written, and again, It is written, It is written, here Christ Iesus quotes Dut 8. Man shall not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God: where Moses and Christ Iesus affirm [34] that God hath many words, contrary to what some Quakers hath affirmed to me saying, that God hath no more words but one, and Christ Iesus here affirmeth, That every appearance and providence of God, is a word proceeding out of the mouth of God, as well as this holy Scripture he alleadged. Though yet it is true, that Christ Iesus is the Word, or declared Mind of God, incomparably above all his spoken or written or providentiall Words and Expressions: He came out of the Bosome of the Eternal Father, and brought the brightest Revelations of his eternal God-head & Councels, and therefore is most justly and eminently stiled the Word of God.

I urged that the Word or Words of God were Figurative Speeches, for properly God had no Mouth, p. 53nor Tongue, nor Lips, nor Heart nor Brains &c. but as our Kings Majesty his Declaration touching Religion, his royal Charters, his Letters from Breda are often insisted on and urged by the Quakers as the word of a King, though his writings contain many hundred words; so it is with the King of Heaven his Scriptures and writings &c.

I had oft occasion to mention G. Fox and Ed. Burrowes their Book in Folio called The great Mystery &c. upon which W Edmundson reproved me for speaking of G. Fox and E. Burrowes in scorn and derision (so his words were) I guest he took me as if I had scornfully intended G Fox in his Burrowes, The Occasion of the Title of this Book.but I had openly purged my self, protesting before the Lord, that I had no such thought, yet this Passage was the occasion of the Title of the Book: For the finger of Gods most wise and holy Providence is often wonderfully seen in small, unexpected & inconsiderable Turns and Occasions: In such poor shells oftimes may be found the Kernels of rich and usefull Observations. Sure (thought I) Gods holy Finger is in it, that G. Fox and Ed. Burrowes (Men so qualified and named) should so notorioufly conspire against the true Lord Iesus Christ in their dark and subtle hellish Contrivings and Imaginations. It was also Gods overruling hand that VV. Edmundson should so upbraid me, and first put the Conceit and thought of such a Consideration into me, which I apprehended as Digitus Dei the finger of God directing and pointing me to so proper and pertinent an use and Application.

Thus the only Wise and Righteous King catcheth p. 54the craftiest Foxes in their own Burrowes, and turns their proud Surmises & Censures upon their own Pates. This occasioneth me with Amaze- [35] ment and Astonishment to cry out O God how deep are thy Being, thy Attributes, thy Providences, thy Self and all thy wayes beyond our thoughts and finding out!

To proceed, I had observed and prepared many Quotations out of G. Fox his Book, but they desired not to hear them read, as in the following dayes of Conference they were read by my continual importunate Urgings: I say at first I could not get oportunity to insist upon some Particulars, a Tast whereof I think now fit to present the Reader with.

In Page 155. of G. Foxes aforesaid Book he brings in one I Stallam their Opposite saying [To say the Light in every man gave forth Scripture, and will open Scripture to us, is palpable Darkness, and contradicts the Scripture] G. Fox answers, [All be in utter Darkness and know not the Scripture, untill they come to the Light that every man was in that gave forth Scripture, for the Light lets them see to what it was spoken, and Christ the end of them.

The english of that Answer is,G Fox his prodigious Folly and Impiety. That every man, that is all Mankind Men and Women if they will, can give forth Scriptures, or write holy Scriptures: I know they call this Light, God, and Christ, and Spirit, the Covenant of God, the Life, Truth and Grace of God. Pertinent Queryes and unanswerable.I asked them in publick [Since this Light comes into this World in and with all Mankind, whether it comes into them at the Conception, or at the Birth, or when else?

Whether it was in all Mankind before the coming p. 55and death of Christ Iesus or whether to those that are in the world since his coming, or both? Whether it be in the Understanding, Will, Memory, Affections in any of them severally, or lodgd in all of them jointly? For it was a prodigious Fable to imagine such a Sun to shine in every Room of an house, and yet none of the Inhabitants, nor any that come into the house discern and see it: Christ Iesus saith, as the mouth is, the heart is, and before a true turning unto God, we are in darkness, we are darkness, we hate the light of God and endure not to see it, but wish there were no God, no Father of Lights to discover and plague us for our dark Courses: yet our Hearts are so cunning and cheating that they will tell us that we have Light and Christ and God within us, and that we can speak and write holy Scripture, not remembring that (as Christ Iesus said of the Temple) our hearts are Dens of Thieves and (like painted Tombs) full of dead mens bones and rottenness, [36] untill a second Birth by the VVord and Spirit of Christ Iesus.

Again, in the same Page G. Fox brings his Opposite saying, [And to say every mans Light is the true word of Prophecy is an old Fable, no man shall be able to spell out a syllable of the Gospel by all that is written in a mans Heart.] This subtle Fox answers, [The Light that enlightens every man is Christ, and the sure Word of Prophecy to him he shall find it] In this Passage who can but see their horrible and simple profaning and wresting of plain Scripture: Is it not clear as day to him that is not willingly blind, that this word of prophecy in Peter, is the p. 56Word which the Prophets spake and writ of Christ Iesus, unto whome the spirit of God in Peter sends us, as being a more sure and convincing word to us then that voice which Peter and Iohn affirmed that they heard from heaven in the Mount of Transfiguration? But thus profanely and simply do others of them affirm this Light to be that Prophet which Moses wrote of, Deut. 18. whereas the holy Spirit in Stephen Acts 7. applyes expresly that Prophesie to the person of the Lord Iesus, that God-man in one person, whome Moses and Stephen preached the great Messiah, or Christ the anointed Prophet, Priest and King unto all that receive or believe in him.

Now diverse observing and publickly expressing how unsuitable it was that three of the ablest Speakers amongst them should Consult openly and whisper and utter themselves one immediately after each other,The tumultuous spirit of the Quakers in Disputing. and somtimes all together as one man against me: W. Edmondson answered and excused it saying, that it was mine own Paper (which he often produced) which exprest my Offer to make good my Positions against all Comers: But I replyed (once and again) That as God is a God of Order, and doth all things in Number, Weight and Measure, in most admirable Order and Method, so I had thought that (according as I writ and spake to them) they would have had so much Ingenuity to conceive, that nor I nor any man was so simple as to offer to Dispute with, to oppose and to answer twenty or thirty or one hundred at once: But thus like subtle and impudent Foxes and Iesuites they pleaded and practised from the beginning of theTis hard to hold the Foxians or any guilty disputant to a fair Dispute. p. 57Conference unto the end of the 4th day, resolving to make use of and (like dying men by drowning) to catch at any ridiculous Advantage though unchristian and uncivill.

But the truth is, this and many other Discouragements and Disadvantages and Difficultyes the Lord Iesus graciously and faithfully [37] (For his name sake) enabled me to cut through, otherwise I saw the Debate would not have held on so many Hours as it did Dayes, I knew they had as much mind to this work (no nor any guilty Soul in the world) as Bears to be tyed to a stake to be baited; and I must humbly declare and predicate it (to the praise of the Father of mercyes, and for the incouragement of others to be Patient for Christ Iesus sake) that an hand from heaven caried me through to the end of each day, and to the end of the whole business.

Sometimes I offered to proceed to an other Point, but all this first day was spent upon the first Point of true and false Quakers: For though many upon a sudden spake as Mr. Coddington Mr. Easton (then Governour, who spake sharply) VVilliam Dyer, VVilliam Harris and others against me, yet I minded closely what my Antagonists vented, who were placed on high in their Desk against me: Iohn Stubs and Iohn Burnet were more sober and manly, but VV. Edmundson (who was the junior of three) would speak all like Solomons foolish woman, loud and clamorous, simple and knowing nothing, being in truth nothing but a flash of wit, a Face of Brass, and a Tongue set on fire from the Hell of Lyes and Fury.

p. 58One Instance here fell out, for when I urged that it was not what man had within him already, and brought into the world with him, that made a true Quaker, but the Spirit of God accompanying and blessing the Reading and Hearing of the writings of God preached and opened: I said the Heart of man was shut up lockt and barr'd up in willing Ignorance and darkness until the finger of God in the use of those and other blessed meanes, pick open in a more gentle way, or break open by great afflictions and and terrours the Soul and Spirit of man. I said that Paul preached the word by the River side, but the Lord opened the heart of Lydia: and while I was saying that, It was not Paul nor Pauls Preaching nor the word that he preached—at this word VV. Edmondson clamour'd out, He speakes Blasphemy: But it pleased God to move the heart of our Deputy-Governour Capt. Cranston justly and seasonably to witness against this Interruption saying,W. Edmondsoo justly reproved by the Deputy Governor Capt. Cranston Let him have liberty to make out his mind: So I proceeded and said, it may be VV. Edmnndson is offended as thinking I spoke against the word Christ; but Christ Iesus knowes that I had no such thought, but of the words which Paul spake. And I added that it was not Lydia nor all her Light within her, nor Paul nor [38] his Preaching, nor the word nor words that he uttered, but the Finger of Gods Spirit (according to Election) that set the word or words of Paul home, opening her heart, and not every heart, (shewing what free grace is against the Popish and Arminian and Foxians exalting of Cursed Nature) and then it was that she being by the Lord turned, p. 59she turned to attend & apply to her soul the words which were spoken by Paul, as a poor Rams-horn made use of in the hand of God.

Toward the end of the day VV. Edmondson fell into a long Invective, how I had falsly slandered the People of God, The Foxians boast of their Number.not only in this place, but the whole Body of the People of the Lord called Quakers in all parts: For said he we are a great people, many thousands in England, many thousands in London, besides in Virginia and Barbadoes and other places, and N-England. And he and they said, hast thou any more to say to make out thy Lyes against them.

I Answered (as at other times) that the Papists the common Protestants, the Iews and the Mahumitans and Pagans, &c. fited the world with their Numbers, and yet we jointly opposed them in Religious matters notwithstanding their innumerable numbers: And as for more proof that they were not True Quakers, and so truly Feariug and Trembling before God, I told them I would produce an Argument, that they were so far from being Christians, that they were a to be exploded and abhorred of all Mankind, as being fallen beneath the common temper and nature of the Humanity of men and women, yea of the Savage and Barbarous in the world, viz. their stripping stark naked their Men and Women and Maidens and passing along in publick places and Streets unto the Assemblyes of Men and Youths and so were beheld and gazed upon by them! and this under a pretence of being stirred up by God as a Service or Worship unto p. 60God, as an act of Christian Religion proceeding from the immediate moving of the most holy Spirit of God, most glorious in purity, and purity and holiness it self.

At first W. Edmundson seemed to make strange of the matter as if it could not be proved that any of their women should so appear in the Assemblyes of People.Two of the Foxian women naked in New England. I told them the matter of fact was so notorious that it would be loss of time and Impudence to question it, being so fouly and openly practised both in Old and New England.

39] Also I added further, that G. Bishop of Bristow, one of themselves, in the second part of the Persecutions of New-England, relates in print the names of two women in N-England that did so practice: and he complains of N-England Persecution because those women suffered Whipping for those actions by the Courts and Officers of N-England.

Iohn Burnet said that the People called Quakers, were a People known to abhor all Impurity and Uncleanness and the Appearance of it, and if any of their women should so practice, they should condemn it in them, yet nevertheless if it should please the Lord God to stir up any of his Daughters so to appear as a Sign and Testimony against the Nakedness of others, they durst not condemn it.

Iohn Stubs said, that they did condemn all immodest Appearances in women, both in Behaviour and Gestures. But if God stirred them up and commanded them to this service to discover the Nakedness of others, they could not but acknowledge p. 61Gods hand, and submit to it: And he further added, that it was a great Cross to a sober womans spirit so to act, as well as an affliction and suffering to her body.

Iohn Stubs likewise alleadged the Prophet Isaiah, (as also did W. E.) and the Sign of the Prophet Ezekiel: and Iohn Stubs read the 20th of Isa. where Isaiah was commanded to goe naked for a Sign to the Egyptians and Ethyopians, to prophesie and denounce that they also should go naked with their buttocks uncovered as the words are: and this is (said they) a proof that the People of the Lord might be stirred up by God to such actions for Signs unto others.Isai. 20 discussed touching NakednessIsa 20

I Answered, that this was in the dayes of Figures and Signs, Shadows and Ceremonyes: And though this was G. Fox his Answer (in his Book which I had there by me) yet G. Fox throughout all this his Book in Folio, turns of the Allegations and Arguments of many of his Opposites with this Answer, to wit, The Substance is come, the Body is come, Christ the End of the Law, the End of the Command, the End of the Scriptures, the End of the Prophets, and of all Signs and Shadows and Figures.

2. Although it were so threatned that the Ethiopians and Egyptians should so goe totally and stark Naked, and that Isaiah did so, which is much questioned: yet it is not to be questioned but that the Egyptians and Ethiopians in their flight, would cover [40] their Secret parts with the first cloaths or raggs they could get, as it is no question but the Prophet Isaiah did.

p. 623. The difference of Nakedness of Mankind and Womankind is very great in all Nations. The Sex of Women is more fitted and framed by God for a Covering, for Retiredness and keeping at home and for Modesty and Bashfulness; nor do we ever read that ever God commanded such a thing to Women, or that ever it came into his heart, or that ever any Godly Woman did so practice: there is no shadow or colour of Proof from the holy Scripture, nor from any Civill and sober People, no nor from the naked Barbarians themselves, who though they suffer their Male Children to go naked till about seven years old, yet cover they their Females from their birth: Tis true it is said in Brasil and other bruitish places some Savage bruits go so, but they are Canibals, Men-eaters, &c. and other Barbarians do not so except in Drunkenness and Madness.

They still answered, that they would not Countenance any such Practice but if the Lord God so commanded his Sons and Daughters it must be obeyed.

I demanded of them how it should be known that it was the voice and command of God, the God of Holiness, The true voice of God, and many false and pretended.and not the command of the unclean spirit? for I told them that under that Cover that one of them might be so commanded, and sent of God in such a posture and behaviour amongst men, why might not ten or twenty, yea all the women in this present Assembly be so stirred up as it were by the Spirit of God to the horror and amazement of the whole Countrey yea of the whole World?

They seemed to me to be Confounded with this p. 63Argumnet and weary to hear of it,Imme…iate Inspirations and Revelations. and not willing to speak to it: I therefore took occasion my self to say that it was true in former Dispensations. The Command of God came to Abraham to kill his own Child, his son Isaac, and this fact enjoined him did seem as horrible unnatural and cruel, as this Nakeduess of the Women unwomanly and unnatural. But,

1. It was in the day and dispensation of such wonderfull Signs and figurative teachings unto men.

And 2. I said God did furnish them with a Spirit of discerning the true dream from the false, the true voice from the false, the voice of God from the voice of Sathan: But in our day wherein God had altered his Dispensations and Revelations which he [41] used to the Fathers, and had spoken to us by his Son, and had left his mind both in the old and new Scriptures or Writings: We have the example and President of the Lord Iesus, that is, to attend to the holy Scriptures only, and to use the weapon of [It is written it is written] against Sathans immediate Inspirations and temptations.

Here W. Edmondson fel into a great heat against me and said that I spoke Blasphemy, in saying that Abraham and the Saints then had a way and Spirit of discerning the Spirits which we had not, implying that Gods Spirit was not the same: He added, that I had kept them long and had proved nothing, and yet we had not done with the first Position. I replyed, that I had produced such Grounds as should never be shaken, and that I presumed did appear to the Consciences of many, and I heartily desired might also appear unto their Spirits, Soules, and Consciences. p. 64Some of the Auditors spake to this Purpose, especially W. Hitchcocks who insisted upon the Water Baptisme.

And thus by Gods Mercy and Patience the Discourse of the first day ended: which very day was notable and significant as to the created Sun in the Heavens,The Eclipse of the Sun in the midst of the first dayes Disputation. who in the midst of our Contest was eclipsed, and hid his Face remarkably, and preached aloud to us, that although the true Lord Iesus Christ the Sun of Righteousness do suffer (in his infinite wisdom and and Patience) false Christs and false Prophets and Herod and Pontius Pilate, and his enemies of all sorts, Iewes and Gentiles, to cloud his Face and Glory a little from the World and his own People, yet he will break forth again in his eternal brightness, splendor and glory.

When that heavenly young Martyr or Witness of Iesus Christ William Hunter was burnt at Burntwood in Essex it was a close and gloomy day,A Note of W. Hunter burnt in Essex at Burnt wood. but this gallant young Champion of Iesus Christ crying out aloud at the stake, Son of God look on me, Son of God shine upon me! immediately that most wonderfull Light & Fire of Heaven the Sun tore the clouds and brake forth and shined gloriously aud remarkably upon the face of this blessed Witness at the suffering of the flames of fire, for Iesus his truth sake against the whorshi Principles of both the Papists & Quakers: and thus do the holy writings tel us, that this most glorious light the Sun of Righteousness, visibly appeared in his glorious and glorified Form and Shape to the visible eye of his servant Steven while he patiently suffered for the p. 65true Lord Iesus sake the murthering Stones to lay him down to sleep.

42] THE second day of our Spiritual Contest & Battle being come, (being the tenth of the sixth MonethMonth August (so called) I heartily wished that I might rather have kept my Bed then have gone forth to a whole dayes fresh Dispute with such (reputed) able and noted Champions. Not that the most high Lord Iesus whose cause and Name I was that day to manage, for the next point was about the true Lord Iesus Christ) not that I say he faild me in my Resolution to march on against Men and Devils for his Name sake; nor that he faild me in my cheerfull Confidence that he would carry me in the everlasting armes of his Power and Goodness through that dayes Conflict (as he had done the day before) but that he was pleased to try me with more than ordinary Weakness and mouldring of my house of Clay, My great Indisposedness of body to the second dayes Contest.that so my strength might be in a great respect immediately from Heaven, considering my great unfitness for this dayes Service: for thus it was, My continued loud Speech all the day before had left an impression of Hoarsness upon me, and much rain falling that afternoon (after the Eclipse) I took some wet in my feet that evening, so that my Hoarseness increased, and all that day my Head was afflicted with pain, and my voice with a painfull Hoarsnefs. I lookt up to heaven,Prayer and Patience. and desired to wait as a Begger at the Gate, and as a Dog under the table of Mercy, and my Spirit was chearfully resolved not to give occasion of Reproaching p. 66the name of God to them who (I knew) waited and watched for it, nor any Disappointment to such as were resolved to attend the Meeting.

This day I chose a middle Seat neerer to the Seat of my three Antagonists I. Stubs, I. Burnet. W. Edmondson that so I might be heard the better with less straining of my Voice and Breast.

I began and stood up and said, the holy Scriptures by the Prophet Ieremiah told us of certain Bow-men, Spiritual Bow men & Gunnerssome that bent their Tongues as Bowes for Lyes and complain'd that none were Valiant for the Truth: I told my opposites that they and I were met as Bow men, and I could heartily desire that all our Arrowes might fly one way, to wit in the defence of the true Lord Iesus Christ against the false: But since I had charged them in my second Position to have set up a false Christ in stead of the true Lord Iesus I should address my self to make probation of my second Position. Yet before I enter upon it, I pray the Readers Patience to be acquainted with some Particulars.

43] First. Though my head was ill, and my voice & speech hoarse and painfull, yet the Lord graciously carried me through the the whole day with little hindrance in my self, and little disadvantage to the understanding of the Auditors.

Secondly. The second days Contest.This dayes Discourse was but accidental and additional; for they and I desired to have finished the the whole first seven Positions in one day at Newport, only in my paper I added, that if the whole seven were not finished in one day, the Conference might continue some few hours the next p. 67day following: on this second day therefore was a great Assembly, the Governour, Magistrates, Inhabitants and strangers, Men and Women, &c. And this dayes Contest also held unto the Evening.

Thirdly. As I had beg'd of God a Spirit of Patience to bear all their Censures, Reproachings, Revilings, Vapourings and Insultings, so it pleased God to exercise me with one notorious though private,11though private "Vizt." R. W. Ms. Ann. That I was Drunk, A black and senceless Imputation.and could not speak that day as I had done the day before: But my Daughter Hart, at whose house I lodged, and Iohn Trip sen. who lodged with me can testifie that I complained of Illness, and eat but a few spoonfulls of milk with Mr. Trip at Breakfast: and though my daughter kindly offered me a Dram for my Illness, but I refused it knowing it might curdle the milk I had taken, and so increase my cold and Obstruction: & this the most holy God knowes, and these Witnesses know was all I took that morning which might conduce to that foul Slander, of being so Drunk that I could not speak plainly that day.

Fourthly. The confused spirit of the Quakers.This day also I encountred with that Disadvantage of all the three aforesaid Disputants at once with all their might fighting for their Idolls and Images against me: I spake of it, and so did others again and again;In the copy of this book belonging to the Library of Brown University, are many manuscript erasures, corrections and annotations, in the well-known handwriting of Roger Williams. They were possihly made with the intention of correcting a second edition of the book, if such had proved desirable. These alterations will all be noted in this reprint and will be designated as Roger Williams' Manuscript Annotations. But W. Edmundson still bruitishly p. 68pleaded that it was mine own Offer to undertake all Comers: I answered as before, that I took them to be rational Men, and by all Comers not to understand ten or twenty or an hundred confusedly at once, but in a fair and equal way, one after an other: it was grievous & often exprest by some of the Audience: But as be…ore on the first day I resolved not to lose time, or suffer a Breach: and the Lord was pleased to make my Yoke easie and Burthen light.

Now to the proof of my second Position which was,The secon… Position. That their Christ was not the true Lord Iesus Christ.

44] Here I prayed their patience to suffer me to tell them that they were not Christians, Concerning true & false Christsnor Professors of Christian Religion: They might (with Iewes & Turks & Papists) profess one God, yet Christians they could not be: but as the true Lord Jesus told us, many false Christ and false Prophets should come, who like Mountebanks instead of true Physitians, Traitors & Rebells against the King eterna… & Murtherers of him.and false and counterfeit Money instead of true, should with Satans power and policy pass up and down and deceive Peoples and Nations, so I must affirm and declare that for their parts they had cut of the head of the Christian Religion, the true Lord Iesus Christ, and they had set up a false Christ, a false King, an Usurper in his stead, they had like Michal put a wooden Image upon a pillow of goats hair in Davids bed, but David himself was gone, the true David, the true Lord Jesus Christ was not to be found amongst them: this I spake expresly and they did hear me awhile.

My proof was, First. Because the Description and Character which the holy Scripture gives to the p. 69true Lord Iesus, no way agrees with the Image which they have set up. I told them that it was known that the word Christ was a greek word signifiing anointed, The true Lord Iesus Christas the word Messiah in the Hebrew did. I said this true Lord Iesus was one Person made up of two Natures, God and Man united into one person, I said one Individual person, whatever S Fisher blasphemously utters against it. That as to his humane Nature or being Man, all the Figures and Ceremonyes, al the Priests and Sacrifices pointed to him as the great Prophet, the great anointed King and Governour &c.His humane nature which G. Fox al… night long so barks against.

2. As to his humane Nature and being a man and One Man Moses and the Prophets wrote of him: of his Mother a Virgin, of the place of his birth Bethlehem, of his bringing up at Nazareth: of his Scourging and other sufferings, drinking Vinegar and Gall, the piercing of his hands and feet, the numbring of him with Malefactors, the parting of his Garments and casting Lots, his burying, rising and Asscending &c. and I said all those Prophesies and many more were exastly, literally, and punctually fulfilled in and upon that Individual Person: so that I affirm, there is such an exact material and literal Harmony between the Prophesies and the historical Narration of his Birth, Life, Death, Resurrection, &c. that he must needs be an Unbeliever, (Iew or Gentile) that doth not acknowledge the admirable Consent and Musick of [45] them in a literal and historical Declaration.

On the other hand I affirmed their Christ was but half a Christ, The Quakers Christ allegorical and meerly Fancy, destroying the History.a Light, an Image or Picture or Fancy p. 70of a Christ made up of the Godhead and their flesh, I said they had set up a Christ within them which was but an Imagination, an Image, a Christ in the mystical Notion: but in reality Nothing: For as the Papists make use of the name Christ, and the Pope saith he is Christs Vicar and Lieftenant, and he doth all for Christ, and the Iesuites (soaring above all Christians) pretend the name Iesus, and yet the Protestant Witnesses have made it to appear that in many respects the Papists are infinitely against both Christ and Iesus, and so are not Christians but Antichristians: so I told them did they, they blew a Trumpet for Christ Iesus, God in Man, the everlasting Father, that we are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, that he was so born at Bethlehem and dyed at Ierusalem &c, And yet all these fair Flourishes and Colours are but as an English Flag in a Spanish or Dutch or any other Enemies Bottome: For do not all their Books declare that Christ is Spiritual, that Christ, God and Man is within us, that his Birth, his Life, his Death, his Burial, his Resurrection, his Ascension are wrought within us, so that like the Oracles of Apollo, and the Ecchoes of the Iesuites the Quakers say Christ was born at Bethlehem and dyed at Ierusalem, but intend in truth and reallity no other birth nor life nor death &c. but what may be extant and wrought in the heart of man.

To this purpose I told them that Humphrey Norton Humphrey Norton deales plainly against the Person of Christ(one that blew the Trumpet and beat up the Drums in the Name of Christ Iesus as loud as any of them) expresly writes openly in his Book printed at London after his return from hence, to wit, Is not p. 71Christ God and is not God a Spirit? you look for a Christ without you, from what coast or Countrey shall he come? what Country-man is he? You stand gazing up in the clouds after a man, but we stand by in white chiding of you. So that if you fix now really and truly upon a Man the Manhood and Humanity of Christ, and that he did consist and still doth of body and soul (as we doe) then you are gone from, (and Christopher Houlder in his late Answer to Nathaniell Morton) are gone from your former Religion, The Equivocation of the Foxians.Tenents and Principles, or else you are miserably bewilder'd in your Souls and Consciences, and some of you most fearfully equivocate, and others must be fearfully up to the ears in Boggs & Swamps not knowing what to hold between this Christ without, and the [46] Christ within which you so much charge upon all except they be Reprobates.

I told them I acknowledged Christ within as much as any of them, & infinitely more, for I did confess that every believing soul did bring home and apply the power and virtue of Christs Birth, Eph 3. 10.Eph 3:10and Life and Death &c. The true Union that is …etween Christ Iesus & Believers.according to that clear Scripture Eph. 3. 10. That Christ may dwell in your Hearts by Faith. I said there was a nearer union between Christ Jesus and a Soul believing on him, then between a Man and his Wife, and between the Soul and the Body. That Union is Earthly and dissolving: but that between Christ Iesus and the Believer, it is eternal in Gods Decrees and Councells, it is temporary in Gods calling of his chosen out of the World, to Repentance & belief in the Mediator p. 72Christ Jesus, and it perpetuated and continues to Eternity.

I told them that (as the holy Scripture saith) they preached not Christ Iesus but Themselves, yea they preached the Lord Iesus to be Themselves: that whatever were their Pretencse (as the Papists) of God & Christ & Holiness & Mortification, yet they held not the Head (as the Scripture speaks) and if their head be but a painted and an Imaginary Head, The Quakers painted Christ.they are but a painted and Imaginary Body. Their Sun of Righteousness they talk of is but a Sun painted upon a Sign or Wall which is not the true Sun, but the picture of the Sun of Righteousness.

I told them they set up this Christ within, opposite to Christ without, as Opposites & Contraryes, Denying & Destroying one an other: for as it is with a King and his Palace, Christ winhin and Christ without.if his person be without, his person at that time is not within, though he be within by his Right, Authority and Influence: if his Person be within the Palace at that time it is not without. But the most clear Truth is though these subtle Foxians sometimes speak of a Christ without that dyed at Ierusalem agreeing with the Christ within, yet they presently declare their meaning to be Mystical: For ask them but these two Questions, Two Questions to Quakers.and if they make any Answer you will see the Cheat, the Equivocotion and the Mistery of Iniquity in it.

1. Do they not hold the Light within every man to be All, to doe All and to suffer All within which the Christ without, Is or Did or suffered without.

p. 732. Ask them now what is become of this Man, this person that thus suffered at Ierusalem, and they are forced to confess he [47] is within, and can give no other account of him, as they answered to me at Newport the last day of the Conference.

But to return, I told them what I said I would prove out of their Writings, and especially out of G. Fox attested by Ed Burrowes his large Epistle, and as it was thought by Iohn Stubs present.

Iohn Burnet declared not, (nor any of them) against what I spake: but said (as said the rest) if G. Fox have spoken or written any thing that is not right and truth, we profess not to follow him: and they were willing I should produce out of G. Fox his Book what I could that might make for my proof, viz. That they did not profess the true Christ.

I said G: Fox had pickt out some particular Lines, Sayings & Sentences out of the Books and Writings of his Opposites, G F…x his Book in Folio produced. Page 3.(it is not to be questioned but to his utmost Advantage, as knowing best how to Answer what he chose and cull'd out) and since they were free and willing, I would produce some Instances: I took up the Book and read in the 3d. page, where he brings in his Opposite Samuel Eaton saying [The Saints have not Christ in the Flesh] G. F. his Answer is [Contrary to Christ and the Apostles Doctrine, who said they were of his Flesh, and of his Bone, and should eat his Flesh, and they that eat his Flesh have it in them.] Whence I affirmed that Christ Jesus had such a Body as might be really and materially in the Saints, and ii was clear that they p. 74were one with the Papists in their Sayings and Doctrines denying the Flesh, Body and Person of Christ Jesus: For as the Papists in stead of a Spritual feeding upon his bloud and Merits,The Papists & Quakers destroy the Person of Christ. they substitute and bring in a Real, Material and Carnal, in their horrible and fantastical Transubstantiation; so do the Quakers professing to eat Christ spiritually, wholy destroy his material and fleshly being.

I proceeded saying, in the 4th Page G. Fox brings in the same Opposite saying, The Saints do not see Christ, the Heavens contain him. And G. F. Answers And the Apostle saith they sate with Christ in heavenly places: so he is contrary to the Apostle, and Christ was in them and walked in them, and God dwelt in them and Christ in you except you be Reprobates. I said that as the Papists were up ridiculously & odiously with Hoc est Corpus meum,The being of Christ in the Heavens This is my Body &c. so they with The Light within you, the Light that enlightens every man, Christ within you except you be Reprobates &c.

48] For if the Heavens do contain that Man Christ Jesus bodily, (as they grant in word) saying They believed he dyed, rose, and ascended: then in that same sence and respect the Saints cannot now sit bodily with Christ in heavenly places, and therefore to alledge Christ within, and their sitting with Christ in heavenly places, was but irrational Nonsence and Jesuitical Equivocation:

The truth is they were gravel'd with these Considerations, and they were willing that G Fox his book and his Answers should answer for them,The Quakers endure not trying but are willingly ignorant. and although the oppositions of G. Fox his Opposites p. 75were mighty, and G Foxes were meer simple barkings of dogs or foxes compar'd with the rational and prudential Answers of a man, yet when I began to open and compare the Assertions of the Opposite and Fox his answer, they would cry out (especially W E. like a galled horse winching) Why dost thou make thy Observations upon G. Fox his words? G. Fox his words need not thy Expositions, let G. Fox his words alone they are able to speak for themselves.

I told them it was a senceless business for me to alleadge, (and they to be willing I should) G. Fox his sayings and his Answers, and we should not debate and discuss the Sence, and I make out my Proof out of G. Fox his words, and his Adversaryes compar'd together: when they had spoken they knew their liberty to take of my Answers with their own, and leave what was spoke to every ones Conscience in the sight of God.

They were Obstinately (that is in Greek Heretically) resolved to avoid this Course,Willing Ignorance. therefore I was glad to hale my Tacks & Bolings close home, and make my best of a bare Wind and now and then loof up into the wind, and get liberty to say something and omit abundance of my Thoughts.

Once I was forced to say to W. Edmondson: Friend yesterday you quoted the 9 of Nehem. how it pleased God to send them his good Spirit to guide them: I pray remember now a word in the 8 of Nehem. Nehem 8 they gave the SenceNeh 8They read and gave the Sence and caused the People to understand the Reading. Without this searching for the Sence and meaning, the Pith and Marrow of p. 76the holy Scriptures, or any other Scriptures or Writings we make use of,The Quakers nonsensical Spirit. what are our Readings but the Papists Latine, the reading Ministers, the pratling of Children and Parrets? yet notwithstanding all that I could say and urge, it is known to all the Audience the Song was, let G. Fox words alone to speak for themselves, if thou hast any [49] more to bring forth let us have them: so that as before I was forced to wave my Observations and Intentions, and pass on to new Allegations: Though now I shall crave liberty to touch and point at (as with the finger) the Opposites Assertions of Truth and G. Fox his unsavoury and rotten Answers

In Page 8.Iohn Bunyan Christs twofold Presence. He brings in Iohn Bunyan &c. saying [The Lord Iesus Christ is afar in his bodily presence] and G. Fox answers, [And yet he saith the Lord is at hand, and the Apostle said he was in them and Christ said he would dwell with them] I here observe and reply, the holy Scripture abundantly tells us of a twofold presence of Christ, 1. His bodily visible Presence, which Iohn Bunyan speaks of and the Quakers in words grant. The 2. His Spirituall, invisible Presence, of which many Scriptures speak and that most clearly. Eph. 3. 10. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by believing &c. Concerning this visible bodily presence, of which the Question is. First. G. Fox his impertinent and silly Answer is not to the Point no more then the East and the West is to one point of the Compass.The Quakers Conjure with Christs Body. 2. He fallaciously, (most unchristianly and impiously) denyes the body of Christ Iesus to be any where, and as Conjurers do (Hocas Pocas) that which all now see p. 77is gone & vanished, so that with the ancient enemies of Christ Humane Nature, the Manicheans, they say and unsay and at last affirm a Christ only God and Spirit dwelling in them, and in all mankind also.

About this time these subtle Foxes minded to spin out Time, and wave the close Fight of examining Particulars concerning Christs humanity.The Quakers endure not Sences or Meanings just as the Papists and yet talk all of light G. Fox his Book was brought forth (the same with mine (Iohn Burinat took it and went along with me in the Quotations, I read and alwayes endeavoured to make my proof out of the Allegation: But W. Edmundson kept strict watch and stood Centinel, that no Observations of Sences or Meanings should pass, resolving to keep out the Fire and Light of Christ Jesus with Stand, or Ile let fly a Fire (from Hell) upon you. Well, I knew what froward Children and bruitish Spirits I dealt with, & resolved to go softly and to speak softly, and as I could gain ground by inches (at least) for liberty to give my witness for the Lord Iesus.

In Page 9. He brings in Iohn Bunyan &c. affirming that the Son of Mary,The old question of Christs Presence. God-Man is absent from his Church, G. Fox answers, but never touching Scripture about it. [contrary to [50] Christs words, I in them and they in me: and I will be with you to the ends: and Christ the Head of the Church. & where two or three are gathered &c. and the Saints are bone of his bone and flesh of his slesh.

I Reply, here half an eye may see as before, how he gives no other Presence or Absence of a Christ but invisible and Spiritual, and subtilly affirms that Christ Iesus hath no bodily Presence at all, in the p. 78sence which all Christians of what sort or Sect soever (but these Iuglers (and themselves also in word and horrible hypocrisie) do acknowledg and profess,

In Page 10 He brings in the same Author saying [Christ was not in his Disciples when he said I am the Light of the world] G Fox answers. Fox & Bonnet no difference.[And so corrected by Christ, I in you and you in me.

Pag. 12. He brings in the same Author, saying [The Body of Christ is out of the sight of all his Saints,] G. Fox Answers, (they sat with Christ in Heavenly places, the Saints are Flesh of his Flesh, and Bone of his Bone, were the Church which he is head of his Body:)The Quakers pretend to own… Christs Bloud & yet in truth allow him no Bloud to shed. In which I Answer, and all his Book over (though he own a Christ without, and that died at Ierusalem in word yet he allows in effect no other Body to Christ Iesus but what is Mistical and Spiritual: so that with notorious Iugling, and Iesuitical Impudence, they would make their simple Followers believe that they own such a Christ as shed his Blood at Ierusalem, and yet leave him in his Body no more Blood to shed then is in a Spirit which hath no Bones, Flesh nor Blood to shed at all.

Pag. 17. He brings in Enoch Howet Enoch Howet.Affirming [That it is Blasphemy to say that Christ is in Man as God Man,] G. Fox Answers (still like the Cuckow in one silly Note) How are they of his Flesh and of his Bones: And doth not the Scripture say, Christ in you, and God will dwell in you, and walk in you, and are not his Saints of his Flesh, and of his Bones, and there is one sentence added, are they not partakers of the Divine Nature?

p. 79I Reply,The divine and humane nature of the Lord Iesus. this Participation of the Divine Nature is (saith Peter) in the Saints by those precious Promises, that is by receiving Christ Jesus, by believing in him according to that Ephes. 3. 10. (That Christ may dwell in your hearts by Believing) not that the Divine Being or Essence and Nature or Godhead is communicable to a finite Creature: from hence these proud Simpletons fancie (and some have been such bold Bayards as to say) they are Christ and God, as much as he that died at Ierusalem, Christed with Christ and Godded with God.

51] It is remarkable that Nicholas the Deacon Nicholas the Deacon and Nicholas Fathers of the old and new Nicholaitans.was the Father (as I believed)11"believe." R. W. Ms. Ann. of the old Nicholaitans and Henery Nichols in King Iames his time the Father of the new Nicholaitans in London and other places, crying up their perfection, their Spirituality and Godhead, all leading from the purity of Gods Worship and Authority of the Holy Scripture, and at last to carnal Filthiness as the Daughters of these the Ranters declare evidently.

This Humane Nature,So Cristopher Houlder he boggles at the word Manhood. humane Soul and Body of Christ Jesus is so cross, opposite and contrary to their new whimsical Christ Jesus (the Light within them) that G. Fox in all this Book cannot endure to hear of the word Humane, as being a new Name and never heard of in the Scriptures.

As to the word Humane, such an odious Word and Bugbear to G. Fox in all this Book:The word Humane considered I said in publick; many Words truely and properly English were well and commendably used that were not in p. 80the Scripture in English: it is true the word Humane comes from the word in Latin Humanus, signifying partaining or belonging to Man: so a Humane Soul or Body is no more but such a Soul or Body as all Mankinde have.Used in the Scripture, 1 Cor 10.1 Cor 10 Hence I told them, that the word Anthropinos peirasmos, 1. Cor. 10. (I presumed Iohn Stubs knew) might have been turned Humane, but is truely turned no Temptation or Trial but such as is common to Men. This Fox knows, that if Christ Jesus be granted to have had such a Soul and Body as is Humane or Common to Men, down falls their Dagon before the Chest or Ark of God, viz. their Horrible, Monstrous Idol of a Christ called Light within them.

We went on thus in alleadging Quotations, though not in a close Examination of them which they endured not, though ever and anon I made some sallies out upon them and had some Skirmishings, and sometimes sharp Disputes before I would retreat from the Quotation.

In Pag. 282. He brings in Daniel Gaudry saying [We shall not see Christ as he is until he comes to Iudgement, Dan. Grudry Christ not seen as he is until the day of Iudgementand then and not before we shall see him] G. Fox Answers, (You where you are see him not: nor know him as he is, we do believe you: but the Saints the true Church whom he is the Head of, in whom he is in the midst and in whom he is, &c.

I was not desirous to trouble the Audience with more Quotations, but they still urged, haste thou any more, hast thou any more, &c. upon their provocation I Quoted many more (to [52] make up an overwhelming Cloud of Witnesses against p. 81these Protestant Iesuites and Iudasites, Betrayers of the Son of God the true Lord Jesus Christ.

In Foxes Answer to his Opposite Daniel Caudry it is clear that he affirms the contrary to his Opposite, to wit, that Christ Jesus is as much now seen visibly as ever he shall be seen: in which I believe he speaks the heart of all the Antichristian Wolves and Foxes who quake and tremble at the thought of Christs return again to judgment:The personal coming of the Lord Iesus. and therefore these deluded and deluding Souls in their dark Prisons of willing Blindness, and the hellish Chaines of the pride and hardness and security of their hearts, they dream they sit in Robes of Glory themselves & now keep open the high Court of eternal Iudgment and pass Sentence upon this Christ without as a poor Outside Christ and all that worship him.

2. I observe in Fox his answer that he can not keep out of his Burrow of confounding a visible eye and a Spiritual, A visible and in visible eye and object.a visible and invisible seing: you see him not saith he where you are, that is you that look upon such a real person indeed, such an one born living and dying as the History sets forth, you cannot see him as he is, but we that look at Christ Iesus and the history of him as Mystical, immediate, invisible, though we use to please you children and fools with the words of Christ dying at Ierusalem: we see him he is in the midest of us: and he is the invisible Head of the Church in God, while you talk of Visibles and seing him as Visible &c.

In Page 276. he brings in Richard Meyo saying,Christ …ithin & Christ without. that he did believe in a Christ that dyed at Ierusalem: p. 82and that he doth not believe in a Christ within, and preach Christ within, is a Reprobate. Colloss. 2. 2. Cor. 13. And he is not in a true Belief of Christ without, that doth not believe in a Christ within, but is in the Devils Belief, and believes as the Devils do.

In this his answer an humble Soul may see how this subtle Traytor under the golden name of Christ, and Christ within in the heart, he stabs at the heart of the true Lord Iesus, who suffered for poor Mankind in mans own nature at Ierusalem.

2. I observe his virulent and venemous Mind and Pen stabbing damning and reprobating all that truly believe in the true Lord Iesus, The Papists and Quakers Christ is no wherewhome he confesseth to have been a real man dying at Ierusalem, &c. except they can believe that he is now no where to be found but in every mans heart that cometh into the world, that is no where.

53]In Page 246. He brings in Christopher Wade saying, Christoph Wade.[It is whimfical to say Christ God and Man, Flesh and Spirit is in them] He answers, [Contrary to the Apostles Doctrine who said they were of his flesh and of his bone, and Christ in you, and he would walk in them, and he that hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his, and they are of his slesh and of his bone, and Christ in you the hope of Glory]

In the same Page he brings in the same Author saying [Flesh and bone cannot be a measure in one and a measure in an other] He Answers [wheras the Apostle saith, we are of his Flesh and of his Bone, here thou art contrary to the Apostle, and that was more then one that had the Flesh of Christ, and his Bone and his Spirit.

p. 83In Page 248. He brings in the same Author saying, [It is a false thing to say Christ Person is in man] He Answers, [which is as much as to say, none are of his Flesh nor of his Bone nor eat nor had not his Substance.

And Page 249 The Saints bodyes are not Christs body. He Answers, How are they Christs? How dwels he in them? and how are they of his Flesh and of his Bone then? and how bruitish are you b…come in Knowledge? hath he not bought them with a price, and are they not his?

And in the same Page he brings in the same Author saying, that neither Gods Essence, nor Heaven, nor Christs Person was in Peters holy body. He answers, but the Apostle said God will dwell with you and walk in you, and again, our conversation is in Heaven.

And once more in the same page There is not whole Christ God and man in men. Answ. Then how must men grow in the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ: and Christ and God will dwel in man and walk in man, God that made all things, and Christ by whome all things were made.

I Reply, this Author Christopher Wade I know not many of his opposites (living and dead, whome he here vapours to answer in his Book,The Author whome G. Fox opposeth and in Pride and madness rageth against. I know were worthy of Christian esteem and honour for the grace and Knowledge of Christ Jesus in them, and for other worthy respects: and whither this Opposite or any other whome he pretends to puffe at or Answer, have thought this audacious Quacksalver worthy of any Reply, I know not: For certainly (as he commonly concludes his Answer in p. 84his Book (Thy many notorious Lyes and Slanders and Blasphemyes are not worth the mentioning: however for the proof of my Position I am occasioned [54] to follow this Fox into his holes and Burrowes, and to hale him out before God, Angls and Men as a most greedy audacious Fox and Wolfe, not sparing the Son and Lamb of God, nor his precious Lambs and Sheep.

Now to all these last Quotations, I say (as the Opposites to Fox said) that this Notion of Christ wit hin opposite to Christ without is a most Frantick and Whimsical,The Quakers Christ but a whimsical Christ Gross and Blockish Fancy: For though he grant Christ Jesus to be a Man which died at Ierusalem, yet making him only Spiritual, and such a Christ as is whole Christ, God and Man in every man in the World, he makes Christ Jesus to be but Whimsical Christ, and that Man that died at Ierusalem but a Babylonian Fancy.

In Pag. 221. He brings in the Author to a Book called Hosanna to the Son of David, Hosanna to the Son of Davidsaying, [Christ is without the Saints in respect of his Bodily presence,] He Answereth, (They are of his Flesh and of his Bone, and eat his Flesh and drink his Blood: and how have the Saints his Mind and Spirit, and he with them and they with him, and sit with him in Heavenly places, and he is the Head of the Church: how then is he absent? the11"Ye" poor Apostates. R. W. Ms. Ann. poor Apostates from him who feel not Christ with you, but he is with the Saints, and they feel him.)

I Reply, I observe this Viperous Tongue saying to the unknown, heavenly Author, and Fox his other p. 85Oppositee [Ye poor Apostates &c.] what is it but a heighth of Devilish Pride going before destruction and condemnation? this proud swelling Bladder puft up with a Timpany of Wind and Vanity, what a huge swelling shew he makes? what a breadth of confident boldness and bruitish impudencie he carries before him? what a gross, Frantick Papist is he become, that cannot, will not distinguish between Christs Spiritual presence and his bodily?The Spirit of the Papists & the Quakers but one. that cannot, will not consider the difference between Spirits and Bodies, a Spirit that hath no Flesh nor Bones, and a Body which hath both, as Christ his Body had? that cannot, will not distinguish between their sinful Flesh and Bones, and the sinless Flesh and Bones of that Man Christ Jesus? that cannot, will not distinguish between God manifested in the Flesh and Bones of that Man Christ Jesus, and manifested in the Flesh and Bones of Believers in him: O most Holy and Righteous are thy Judgements, O thou most High Judge of the World, who art a devouring fire and Justice it self, who thus castest down the Proud and Self-conceited into the Dungeon of such Black and Hellish Ignorance!

55] Pag. 217, Out of a Book mentioning the Quakers Cause, saying, [To say Christ within is never to mention Christ without] He Answers, There is none knows Christ within, but he knows him without: the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever: And there is none knows him but they know him within, revealed of the Father, which is beyond Flesh and Blood.

I Observe, This foolish Fox (for all his hiding p. 86Craft) is here found out:The Quakers notoriously dissemble, for they do own and not own the Christ that dyed at Ierusalem. He professeth (against his Will and Heart) a Christ that died at Ierusalem, and therefore is he forced to name a Christ without: but when the Hole and Burrough is Digged the Fox is found: For Examine what is this Christ without? is he that litteral, real and material Person the Son of Mary (as all professing Christs Name generally agree? Is this he whom the Quakers acknowledge to have lived and died at Ierusalem? and do they intend a Material Crosse, a literal Death, a literal and real Ierusalem? some of them will say yes, but therein give the lye to others of themselves, and also to the rest of their own story, in acknowledging no other Christ but such as is in every man: such a Christ as really and bodily died at Ierusalem, they scorn and hate and fly from as the Devils did, crying out, What have we to do with thee Iesus thou Son of the most High God, art thou come to torment us hesore the time? Hence the former Arch-deacon or Arch-bishop of these parts Humphrey Norton: he mocks at an outward Christ,Humph. Norton more plain in words then other Quakers. he asks what Countryman he was and shall be: He reproves the Fools that have their Eyes abroad, and gazing after a man into Heaven, he jeers at the Crosse, aud asks what manner of wood it was made of, seeing we must take it up dayly? And Fox saith, this Jesus Christ without and within, is Jesus Christ yesterday, and to day, and the same for ever: therefore in the Logick or Reason of this Bruite, Christ yesterday and to day.Christ had no body that was born at Bethlehem, or died at Ierusalem: For he was born yesterday, and to day, and he is born forever: he dyed yesterday, and he dies p. 87to day, and he dies forever, which is a most Heavenly Truth relating to Gods purpose, Christs Merit, and to Forefathers, our present times, and such as yet must be born and follow after us.

But such Mystical and figurative Scriptures (which are in themselves like Sampsons Lion and Riddle) through Satans Policy, and the proud simplicity of these simple Foxes, are made the common Holes and Burroughs where you may be sure to find them: just like the Iesuites (whose Cosens, if not Brethren of one belly of Hell [56] they are) who usually confound clear Scriptures with Spiritual and Mystical Illusions, and sly from Distinctions and openings necessary in places more dark, figurative and allegorical.

In pag. 211. He brings in Iohn Burton saying, That the man that was crucified his body is now in the presence of his Father, absent from his People as touching his bodily presence. He Answers. Doth not the Apostle say he is the Head of the Church? and doth not the Apostle say they are of his Flesh and Bone and sit it heavenly places, with Christ, and Christ saith, they must eat his flesh, and he is in them.

As I remember at the reading of this Quotation, I urged that herein G. Fox did plainly deny (as indeed in all the rest I have quoted) Christ Jesus to have had such a body as could be born of a woman,The Quakers endure not to be searched, temer of false and thievish spirits. wrapped in swadling Cloathes, &c. as could be hungry, weary, sleep, discourse, 11Interline "be." R. W. Ms. Ann.apprehended, buffeted, whipped, nail'd to the Gallowes, die, be buried, p. 88arise and ascend up visibly into these visible Heavens, now in the presence of his Father, and absent from his People on Earth, as touching his bodily presence: But one of my Opposites, (I think two of them) bid me not wronge G. Fox by my Observation, for his words were not so. I Answ. In effect and Substance they were, for G. Fox here, (and in all his Answers) maintains the Negative to what his Opposites Affirm. The Quakers & Apolloes Oracles the same.And 2. As to the grounds of his deniall it is clear that sometimes they are most plain and clear, and sometimes most subtle, and commonly such as will bear a twofold Sence, on which they commonly ground some Iesuitical equivocation.

In Pag. 210. He brings in Iohn Burton saying, Iohn Burton.Christ went away into Heaven from his Disciples, and so not within them. He Answers, Did not he say that he would come again to them? Did he not say he was in them, I in you? And did not the Apostle say Christ was in them except they were Reprobates? the hope of Glory? was he not revealed to the Apostle and so in him? and did not the Apostle Preach Christ within, and you preach Christ without?

Again in the same Page [Those Believers that are in the body at this day are absent from the Lord:] He Answers again,If ever there Equivocating Iesuites in the world the Quakers are. Doth not the Aposte say Christ is in them except they be Reprobates? and he is in them the Hope of Glory? and they have fellowship with God, and God will dwell in them, and walk in them, and he that believes believes in him, and Christ and so notabsent.

Again in the same Page, they say [He is absent from them as touching his slesh, He Answers, Doth not p. 89the Apostle say they [57] are of his Flesh and of his Bone? and he that eates not his Flesh, hath no life in him, and they sit in heavenly places with him, and he that eates his flesh hath it in him.

And again in the same Page they say [There is not any Heaven within into which the Man Christ is ascended, or can any man contain a man four foot long?] He Answers [Christ is a Mystery, and is he not to be revealed within who is a Mystery? He who did descend to be revealed and made manifest in his Saints in slesh and Spirit, that did descend, which is now manifested, that the World wonders at: that is ascended far above the Heavens, who is the Saints life living Bread and Drink: and where ever used the Ministers of Christ any such expression as thou doth, which shews that Christ to thee is a Mystery?

Reply, The Quakers wonderful jugling about the true ChristIn all these four Passages G. Fox expresly denies that Christ is ascended into Heaven from his Disciples: That Believers now in the Body are absent from the Lord: that he is absent from Man as touching his Flesh: that there is a Heaven into which Christ is ascended: and that Christs Body is not containable in a place according to his stature and proportion.

2. In his Answers he notoriously jugles and equivocates as if he maintained Christ in Truth, he that lived and died at Ierusalem, and visibly ascended into Heaven though the whole scope and the plain open faced meaning of his words, with loud cries tend altogether to another business, to wit, to set up himself by setting up the Image and Picture, this Imaginary Christ which he calls the Light within them.

p. 90The same Author saith, Pag. 206. [A false Christ hath a new false Faith to apprehend this Crucified Christ within,John Burton:] He Answers, [Which is contrary to the Faith of the Apostles which Preached Christ that's Crucified within and not another; Him that was raised from the dead was risen that Lord Jesus Christ within, the same yesterday, to day, and for ever, by whom the World was made glorified with the Father before the World began: it was he that was manifest in the Saints, that was, and is not another, for the other is Antichrist.]

Again in the same Page, it is a Sceipture of the Devils making to apprehend this Christ within: He Answers, Now I say if there be any Christ but he that was crucified within he is a false Christ, and the Scripture holds forth this, and the Devil never made it, but he and his Messengers are against it: And he that hath not this Christ [58] that was risen and Crucified within is a Reprobate though Devills and Reprobates may talk of him without.

This Quotation was read again in their own Book by Iohn Burnet, and they magnified the Christ within,The Quakers Traitors & Rebels against the true Lord Iesus but they would not suffer me to observe the sence and argue from it, saying, G. Foxes Words were plain concerning the true Christ; And so indeed I say they are to any penitent Soul truly (like Paul) unbottom'd from weak and filthy self, and his own Dunghil Righteousness, and burning with sincere Affection to the true Lord Iesus: For these subtle Foxes, and their Words discover (as the Sun at noon day) that as plainly as ever Absalom, Achitophel, Shimei, Sheba rose up in conspiracy p. 91and Rebellion against David, &c. as plainly as ever Iudas and Peter (for a time) and Alexander the Copper-smith, and Hymeneus, and Iulian the Apostate denied Davids Antitype the true Lord Iesus: so under the Cloak and Colour of Christ Crucified within, do their Rebellious Traitors bear Arms against the Mediator between God and Man, the Man Christ Jesus: For although it be Scripture Phrase, that we are Crucified, Dead and Buried, and Risen with Christ: yet what a poor proof is this, that Christ was Born and Crucified &c. yesterday, and to day within us, and there is no other Birth nor Life, nor Death, nor Grave but what is within us, and all are Reprobates and Devils that bow not down to this painted devouring Monster.

Still my Opposites were catcht in their own Craftiness they seemed well pleased that G. Fox should be heard in his Answers to his Adversaries, I have known the poor Lobsters catch the Foxes.and I restrain'd and stopt from making out my Proofs from the Sense, and Scope and Meaning: I was yet glad that so much was discovered, that I had (by Catches) liberty to give fire sometimes, and intended to make use of this present Advantage (which I from the first intended, when I saw I should be stopt, and they would not afford me the liberty I gave to them without the least Interruption) as Iohn Stubs confessed.

Page 135. He brings in Thomas Moor saying [Christ is absent from us while we are in this Mortal Body] He Answers contrary to the Apostle, who saith, the Life of Christ is manifested in their mortal Flesh.]

p. 92And Page 136. The same Author saith [Christ is distinct from every one of us, and without us in our particular persons,] He An- [59] swers, [The Apostle said Christ was in them except thed were Reprobates: and they were of his Flesh and of his Bone, and they eat his Flesh and drank his Blood, then it was in them, and he is distinct from none but Reprobates who hates the Light.]

Reply, I wondred not so much at this Thunder, and Fire, The wonderful blindness and hardness of my Antagonistsand stinking Brimstone from this Foxes mouth, and that all are Reprobates with him that bow not down to his Carved Image: but I wondred at my Opposites, who declared (publickly as before) that they would not follow G. Fox but in the Truth, &c. and yet when I read all their11"the plain Evidences." R. W. Ms. Ann. plain Evidences to them of Foxes denying the true Lord Iesus, God and Man; and making only a Spiritual Christ, a Mystical Invi…ible Iesus, &c. that yet they should be so blinded and hardened, as to cover, excuse and plead for G. Fox in all particulars, and stop me from drawing the Curtain and letting in the Light by Opening and Arguing from the Sence and Meaning.

I do not remember that any one of my three Opposites gave any positive answer to any of my Observations on Foxes Principles, Answers, and Evasions: All their work was to keep themselves within their Trenches or Burroughs, and to cry out [Thou must keep to Foxes Words] or, Wilt thou go on to another?

In Page 71. He brings in Frances Higginson saying, Frances Higginson[Christs Humane Nature] He Answers, [Where p. 93doth the Scripture speak of Humane,The Quakers endure not the word Humane the Word Humane where is it written that we may search for it: Now we do not deny that Christ (according to the Flesh) was of Abraham, but not the word Humane: And Christs Nature is not Humane which is Earthly, for that is the first Adam.]

Reply. This ignorant and simple Cavil (as I have before proved it to be from 1 Cor. 10.) is often brought by G. Fox in this Book, in an horrible equivocation to overthrow and destroy that Humane Nature, that Flesh and Body of the Lord Jesus, who yet had such a Body they say that died at Ierusalem: These Traiterous Jesuits or Iudasites tell us Humane is of the Earth or Earthly, and that is the first Adam, but Christ Jesus is of the Seed of Abraham according to the slesh, that is, in their mental Reservation, according to their slesh, God in their flesh, Christ in their flesh suffering at a Mystical Ierusalem within them: They are Abrahams Seed, Isaaks Seed in whom all Nations (by this Christ the Light within them) must be blessed: And all that are not this Seed, this Flesh, [60] this Christ (which they are) are in the Serpents Nature and Reprobates. Acts 13. Opened of Christs Humanity.Acts 13But amongst all the most full and heavenly Scriptures for the Humane Nature of the Lord Jesus: I shall touch but one at present, Act. 13. at Antioch, Barnabas and Paul in a Synagogue of the Iews made the Humane Nature of the Lord Jesus, (as also in other places) the great Subject of their Discourse and Preaching: and concludes ver. 38. Be it known unto you therefore Men & Brethren, that through this Man is Preached unto you the Forgiveness p. 94of sins, and by Him all that Believe are Iustified from all things from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses. By the meritorious Sufferings, Death and Blood-shedding of this Jesus (literally in the History born at Bethlehem as the Quakers say, &c.) is only forgiveness of sin, and justification, &c. and not by a Chimical and Diabolical Christ and Fancy within us, begot by the Devil on a proud and lazie Ignorance: Let therefore (as it follows) the Proud Despisers wonder and perish, believing not in him the true Light of the World, the true Brazen Serpent to all that look up unto him.

In Page 37. He brings in Thomas Collier saying,Tho. Collier [If the very Christ God Man be within those called Quakers he cannot come down from Heaven] He Answers, [Here he stands against the promise of Christ, that he shall come and dwell in you, and walk in you: I will come again unto you. And he hath revealed his Son in me saith the Apostle, and know you not that Christ is in you except you be Reprobates: and the Spirit of the Father speaks in you, and see how contrary thou art to the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles.

I urged that here G. Fox did plainly deny the expected personal coming of the Lord Iesus: The second coming of the Lord Iesusbut they charged me to give none of my Sences and Meanings to G. Fox his words: but now I have leave (by Gods merciful hand) here to say, that their Hypocrisie and Deceit (whereby they cheat themselves and others) is so much the more gross and abominable, because they pretend in words to own Christ Jesus Humane descending, or Ascending p. 95as a Man into Heaven, and Christs there abiding until the time of the Restitution, and Christs return the second time: They know also that all those Scriptures they produce (as Christ in you except ye be Reprobates, &c.) concern an inward invisible and Spiritual presence, and yet they bruitishly cry out contrary to the Prophets, Christ, & the Apostles.

61] It comes to my mind that in reading & urging some of these Passages concerning these Foxians denying the Humane Nature and Person of the Lord Iesus, one of my Opposites Iohn Stubs insisted upon that 9. of Isaiah where Christ is called the Everlasting Father: The Everlasting Fath…r Christ I…su. & howand yet he said, He was the Son of Man born of a Woman, &c. I Answered, the Hebrew word rendred by our Trans…ators, the Everlasting Father is Translated by some, the Father of an age, or the Father of Ages, alluding to the great increase and spreading of Christs Name, and the mighty increase of his Spiritual Seed (as the Lord promised to Abraham and Isaac) as the Stars of Heaven. Iohn Stubs said the Hebrew word was [Abi Haad, &c.] and it was rendred Pater Eternitatis: I replied that it was rendred (and that more near the Hebrew) Pater seculi, or seculorum: But I told him it was not a seasonable time and place for him and me to spend much time about the Translation of the word:The Quakers wonderfully changed & yet but in Dissimulation as to learning & the Scriptures he said he had brought the Hebrew Bible with him, and it may be he understood the Hebrew and the Greek and other Languages as well as my self and better too: I was about to say that they were wonderfully altered and changed from their former principles and practises, for heretofore they p. 96have professed to me that they had no need of Books, no not of the Scripture it self, for they had the Teacher within them that gave forth Scripture, &c. if now they were perswaded to study the Holy Scripture and the Translation of it, and to examine the Translations and the Copies of them, then they did err and sin before, (which they say the Saints cannot) in so wonderfully neglecting and slighting them as useless and needless things.

Yea the truth is if their Light be so Alsufficient as they make it, to bring them to Heaven, to guide them immediately and infallibly &c. what simplicity is it in them to stoop to Pen and Ink, and mens fallible Translations, yea, many wayes charged with many failings.

I know their Pretences of becoming All to All to win the more, and of removing the offence and stumbling block, viz. as if they denied the Scriptures, but the truth is, they look at the Holy Scriptures still but as the Ceremonies which the Apostles dispensed with for a season: they care no more for the Scriptures then the Papists do, they are forced to make use of them for an end, but all their hope is in their Interpretations, which both Papists and Qua- [62] kers bend their utmost to secure, viz. the Priviledge of Interpretation, and chair of Infallibility to themselves, or else down they tumble, for most sure it is the Holy Scriptures, and both Papists and Quakers are at irreconcilable difference, if the one stand the other must fall for ever.

Although I desired to finish all the first seven Positions that day, and offered once or twice to p. 97proceed,W. Edmund. leaves the Dispute & is hurried into Preaching yet W. Edmundson (especially) upbraided me that I kept them long, and that I proved nothing, and upon a sudden a violent, tumultuous disorderly Wind or Spirit filled all his Sails, so that he rose up and fell into a downright Speech or Sermon to the People and Auditory: and first he declared how notoriously I had wronged them, in laying and publishing so many false, and some of them dangerous Charges against them. 2 And how they had been so long patient towards me and suffer me to produce so many Allegations out of G. Fox his Book, and yet they speak nothing for me, but G. Fox his words cleared him from all my unjust challenges and charges. 3. He Appealed to the People, how willing they had shewed themselves to own the Scriptures, and to have all their Tea…hings and Differences tried by the Scriptures. 4. He fell upon the two Hinges of all the Quakers common Discourses.

First, An Invective against the Priests, False Teacher, False Apostles, who had got on the Sheeps cloathing, and sold the words of Scripture for their Game and Lucre and he amplified this much how all their care and study was to get a good Living or Benifice of 50. 6… 100. or 200 pounds a year (more or less) and he that complained how I took up time, now (tediously) made us all to hear a Story, which he said he knew himself of one of the Priests that lived not many miles from the place where W. Edmund. W. Edmund. his story concerning Beneficeslived, who told with his own Mouth unto William Edmund. viz. how that having a good Benefice, another Priest of his acquaintance p. 98came to visit him, whom he entertained kindly, and this his Guest told him, that he was going to the Bishop of Dublin, who was his Friend: and the Priest the Host was afterward informed that this treacherous and ungrateful Guest, did use all the art he could with the Bishop of Durham (or Dublin) to get his Friends (that had entertained him) his Living from him.

2. The second part of his Sermon was (as usually it is of all their Sermons) an extolling and magnifying of that Light which [63] he said had appeared to him, which he advanced as the Principle and the Foundation, the Light, &c. he added how they had left all the Glory and Pleasures of the World for this Light:And his vain extolling of their Idol Light and how they had endured and suffered much for Preaching this Light to ungodly and ungrateful men, who had ill requited them: for their Message and Work was only to bring good News unto them, to tell them that they should be free from sin and have Christ Jesus live and dwell in them. I kept silence until this famous Apostle and Preacher of Christ Iesus had done this Speech or Sermon which he said he was moved in his heart to make unto them & (as he often said) to give an account of his Faith which he performed with very great zeal and fervency, both of mind and body.

I had thought then to have spoke,John Stubs his sermon but immediately Io. Stubs stood up being moved (as he said) to Declare his mind and Thoughts unto the people also, and so he began a large Oration, Speech or Sermon also (though not so long as William Edmundsons) p. 99he declared how pleasant a thing the Light was, and how pleasant a thing it was to behold it? And he said, are you angry because we bring you the Tidings of the Light? This was the principle, this was the Foundation of all, the Light, &c. He added (for Iohn Stubs his was but a Repetition of William Edmundsons his Sermon) that they had forsaken all the Glory of Honours and Pleasures of this World for this Light: and they had left their Wives and Children, and exposed themselves to hard Travels and to many Hardships and Sufferings for the Light sake: I heard him also patiently and gave him no Interruption (as he twice openly confest that I had not interrupted them: but when he had finished his Sermon and I had gained a little calm and liberty of Speech, immediately before I could finish one Sentence; that Pragmatical and Insulting Soul W. Edmundson stopt and Interrupted me,The Quakers unruly and rash interruptions so that I openly complained of incivility and inhumanity: that hearing patiently their two Sermons, they were set down, and common Reason said that it was my turn to speak, and every body desired what Answer I could frame to hear it, that then I should be disturbed and stopt was no way befitting the Societies of Civil and Morral men: I then Answered,A short Answer to 2 Sermons that those very Sermons or Orations which they had now made to the People were so far beneath the merit of an Answer to them, that they ministred and afforded to me a mighty and invincible Argument, that the Spirit of God [64] was not the Author of them: For we all knew that the Spirit of God was most purely Rational, and a Spirit p. 100of pure Order, and did not prompt or move men to break Hedges and leap over one Ordinance into another: We were engaged in a mutual Conference and Disputation, The motions of Gods spirit not those of the Quakerswe were in the midst of it, how came we then to fall into Popular Orations and Sermons? is it comely when persons are Disputing to fall upon our knees and Answer an Argument with a Prayer (as it is a frequent practice with the Quakers,) is it proper to break off Prayer and fall to disputing, or out of Disputation into Preaching?

But I said my Opposites Spirit was far from the Holy Spirit of God: T…e Quakers not orderly nor patientand his movings are far from the Motions with which my Antagonists were acted, for they had neither power to keep civil Order, nor to be patient, for not being able to answer nor bear my words W. Edmundson said expresly what should we sit here and suffer him to vent his Blasphemies and Lies? he hath kept us here two dayes, and have proved nothing, &c.

I took a little boldness and told them, that if Paul himself were present, or Iesus Christ himself in their bodily presence which they confessed he died in at Ierusalem, yet they would say unto them, even unto Christ himself, thou hast falsely charged but thou hast proved nothing: Paul himself should be an Enemy, and Jesus Christ should be a Blasphemer and a Beelzebub because he brought glad news of the Truth from Heaven to them.

I further said, that I had more to offer in the name and in the cause of the true Lord Jesus Christ, and after I had got liberty of speech, I said that as they which denied the person of the true p. 101Lord Jesus denied the true Lord Iesus himself,The Offices of Christ Iesus so they which denied the Offices which God the Father had invested him with and designed him to fulfil, the denied the true Lord Iesus Christ.

They demanded of me wherein they denied the offices of Christ Iesus: I Answered, I had many things to declare in which they denied the Offices of Christ Iesus (as well as the Papists for which we seperated from them as Antichristans, not holding the Head the true Lord Jesus the Sacrifice and Sacrificer, the only Prophet, Apostle and Messenger, bringing in the last times, the last Dispensation and Will of his Father: contrary to the Papists who set up (some of them) the Pope and (some of them) the general counsel above the Lord Jesus declaring his mind in the Holy Scriptures: and con- [65] trary to the Quakers who set up a voice or motion within them over topping and over pouring the voice of Christ Jesus in the Scriptures, some of them maintaining that this Light within them is that great Prophet that was to come which Moses Prophesied of, Deut. 18.

I said I would contract my thoughts,The Kingly office of the Lord Iesus. and speak at present only a little of his Kingly power and Office, and I plainly denounced that they were all notoriously guilty of High Treason against the King of Kings, the Lord Jesus, yea as far as in them lay, they robd him of his Crown, and Life and All.

In particular I told them I had abundant proof there ready to bring forth from G. Foxes Book, that he and his Associates denied (yea all of them) that visible Kingdome and Church and Institutions which p. 102he as King over all his Subjects hath Sovereign Right unto, and most faithfully and wisely ordained to continue until his coming again.

I told them that G. Fox his Book and all their Books and Professions denied any visible Church of Christ at all:The visible Christian Church & Ordinances. and though they maintained and kept up Congregations (of pretended Christan) Worships and Worshippers (in a direct contradiction unto their own Tenents, yet) they maintained the Church was in God and so not visible: the Officers of the Church were invisible and immediately made by the immediate and invisible Spirit. The Baptisme was within, and only the Baptisme of the Spirit and of Fire: The Lords Supper appointed by the Lord Jesus to be a Spiritual Feast remembring him until his coming was with them nothing else but Spiritual joy, which they have one in and with another, which they have by the second coming of the Lord Jesus to them, who they said was come again to the Apostles the second time, and unto themselves also.

Upon this (as I remember) there fell out some words between my Opposites, and some of the people called Baptists: But some of them (especially Iohn Stubs) demanded of me, why I thus charged them and was my self so guilty, not living in Church Ordinances my self.

I Answered,Touching the several Churches extant. that it was one thing to be in Arms against the King of Kings and his visible Kingdome and Administration of it, & to turn off all to Notions and Fancies of an invisible Kingdome, and invisible Officers and Worships as the Quakers did: Another p. 10366] thing among so many pretenders to be the true Christian Army and Officers of Christ Jesus) to be in doubt unto which to associate and to list our selves.

After all my search and examinations and considerations I said,Churches nearest to Christ Iesus I do profess to believe, that some come nearer to the first primitive Churches, and the Institutions and Appointments of Christ Jesus then others, as in many respects so in that gallant and heavenly and fundamental Principle of the true matter of a Christian Congregation, Flock or Society,This was and I hope is the principle of the N English Church. viz. Actual Believers, true Disciples & Converts Living Stones, such as can give some account how the Grace of God hath appeared unto them, and wrought that Heavenly Change in them; I professed that if my Soul could finde rest in joyning unto any of the Churches professing Christ Jesus now extant, I would readily and gladly do it, yea unto themselves whom I now opposed.

But Thirdly. Not finding rest, they themselves knew, there is a Time of purity and Primitive Sincerity: The various appearances of Christ Iesusthere is a time of Transgression & Apostacy, there is a time of the coming out of the Babilonian Apostacy & Wilderness: there is a time of many Flocks pretending to be Christs and saying. Loe here he is, &c. and a Command of Christ Jesus, goe not into the Wilderness, goe not into the private Chambers: There is a time when Christ Iesus his Doves and Loves cry out to him, O thou whome my Soul loveth, tell me where thou feedest, where thou makest thy Flock to rest at noon; for why should I be as one that turns aside to the Flocks of my Companions? p. 104I doe not remember that any Reply was made to this by any of my Opposites, nor heard I any more of this Objection.

I now praied there11"their."R. W. Ms. Ann. patience to hear me a few words: I said we had spent two whole dayes from morning to night and had proceeded no further then the Debates of the two first Positions, My offer in the end of the second dayes conferenceI told them if they were free I would attend them again in the Morning (being the first of the week) to fall upon the proof of my other five positions remaining for Newport: or if they were not willing to that, I would (if God permitted) attend them there on the second day called Munday, in the Morning to proceed upon the rest.

W. Edmundson said, they had spent so much time already upon but two of them:Lying pretenders to Gods service and both he and Iohn Stubs said they had other business in hand then to attend unto my false Charges which in all 67] this time I could not make out: they said they must go about the work of the Lord to which he had called them.

I told them I had used all diligence, I failed not to meet them about the exact hour appointed, and alwayes before the audience was come. I never withdrew nor absented a Minute, but put my old Carcase to constant pursuit of my promise which lay on me to fulfil, and to make out my proofs,The Authors just Apologie agai…st the unjust clamors of the Quakers although they had spoke never a word until I had finished: I used all possible brevetie, and oft times suppressed my thoughts pressing in upon me for p. 105Utterance and Audience; I rather chose thus to Apologize for my self, then down right to blame them, on whom (they saw well enough) I laid the blame of our long proceeding. I told them I had spoken nothing to them but the Eternal truth of God, which sooner or later would arrest them, and using aloud the words of the Lord Jesus [viz. The words that I have spoken shall judge you at the last day.] I withdrew.

Within a quarter of an hour they sent one to me to desire my coming in again to them, and William Edmondson (commonly their proud mouth) told me that I had deeply charged them and laid many false Accusations upon them, and some of them dangerous, both as they were Christians, and as they were men: they had used long patience in hearing of me, and yet because it should be seen that they were willing to hear the utmost that I had to say they would meet and spend a few hours with me on the second Day following at nine in the Morning, only they would not endure any long and tedious Discourses.

I answered that their own souls knew,A mutual agreement for a third dayes conference. and the Auditors knew I used to be brief: and if they had pleased to have given me leave, I would have finished the whole seven by noon the first day: and I would now promise them (by Gods help) to finish what I had to say to the other five remaining in a quarter of an hour, so that in five quarters of an hour I would present them with what I had to say: W. Edmundson said they would expect I should so do, and all of them seemed well pleased that I offered p. 106to dispatch each Position in a quarter of an hour; I said they must not count me false & a Promisebreaker if I was not exact to a quarter of an hour possible I might be within a quarter, possible I might something exceed it, but I hoped not to exceed above a quarter.

W. Edmundson replied, Nay Roger thou must be punctual if [68] thou wilt be a Christian: and indeed afterward at Providence he unjustly more then once upbraided me saying,A quarter of an hour much canvased. Is this your quarter of an hour? I answered that Christians nor any prudent man would be so curious and critical as to raise Censures and Accusations upon the nicityes and uncertaintyes of a few Minutes, for unless we had Clocks and Watches and quarter-Glasses (as in some Ships) it was impossible to be exactly punctual: however by Gods help I said I would study such Exactness, that I would rather omit much I had to say then fail in my promise to them.

After this (as I heard) W Hitchcock of Newport held dispute with them about Water-Baptisme, I was withdrawn being evening and weary.

I was told by many of Providence, that I knew them they would not stand a Disputation: or if they did they would not continue without great Advantages and be as slippery as Eeles, and break off abruptly, as their spirit hurried them, I therefore studiously endeavoured to tole and drive them to the finishing of my remaining five at Newport, The Quakers spirit & policyand the other seven at Providence. And thus by the most wise and gracious hand of God we came to the end of the second dayes work, and the second Position and the end of the Week.

p. 107It was queried by some why (at Newport and Providence afterward) they appointed the end of the weeks for the Disputation? and why since it was not finished they would not proceed on the first day? It is not immaginable that they cordially owne that day,The Quakers would not dispute on the first day and why. (for the Quakers work upon it) but they wisely resolved to have the whole first day with the People to make up their Breaches, stop Leakes dress wounds that might be in the foregoing Agitations against their Consciences & Credits. It is dolefull that men of excellent parts, and of great knowledge in the Scripture, should yet so ly under a Sentence of Gospel justice, that they cannot but deceive as they are deceived, that they cannot but believe Lyes and tell Lyes, horrible and blasphemous Lyes, as confidently as the Purest Truths, and suck in and, powre out the poyson of Dragons, the great red Dragon, the Father of Lyes, instead of the sweet Milk and Wine from the Breasts of the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the son of God Christ Iesus.

69] THe third day of our Conference being come,The third dayes conference at New-port being the second of the Week as was appointed, W. Edmundson began and said to this effect, Roger, we have waited upon thee two dayes already to hear what thou hadst to say to prove thy false Charges against us: we are here according to promise to spend some hours about the rest of the seven which yet remain: we must tel thee that we will not give thee leave to make a long work of it: if according to thy promise thou wilt dispatch each p. 108af the other five in a quarter of an hour, we will keep our promise and hear thee.

I knew it was in vain, (as in the other two dayes past I found it) to insist upon their obstinately continued Advantage of three constantly engaged against me (beside their accidental speakers who had liberty when others were forbidden) I say notable and Chief men in their way and Sect: A Letter sent in to all of us.and having just then read a Letter as I sate there directed to my self and all of us to be read in the Assembly, I begun with presenting the Letter to them, and told them that just now it was delivered to me &c. I knew not certainly from whome it came, nor of one Tittle of the Contents of it: only I judged it to be my Brother Robert Williams (School-Master of Newport) his hand: I read the Superscription and offered if they pleased to unseal and read it, or I would deliver it into their hand so to doe.

W. Edmundson answered that they came not thither to hear Papers, but to hear how I would make out my false Charges against them and this he speaking none would whist against it, and this he did speak because my Brother beyond my expectation and thoughts spake some words the first morning against their Insulting and domineering over me, as also delivered a paper to them which was with much adoe handed and delivered to them but never read, containing these two great Points in every true penitent Converts eye, viz. the sight of Sin as Sin. And 2. The sight of the material Lord Iesus as the true Messiah or anointed, these p. 109were the two Daggers which they knew stab'd at the heart of their feigned Christ and Light within them.

I knew my Brother patiently waited there the two first dayes,The Letter refused to be opened by the Quakers and was (with others) silenced: and now I guessed he had sent them his mind and would trouble them no more. I told them [70] the whole Assembly had Interest in the Letter, as directed to us to read to the rest.

W. Edmundson and the rest desired the Auditors to speak if they desired to have it read: some of the Quakers said it might be read when the business was over: so I to make no breach put it up, and in the end of the day offered it again, claiming their Promise, but they regarded it not, so that after the Conference ended (we of Providence being called away by a Boat preparing to depart) I stept to my Brothers house and acquainted him with Passages, who said that not only the Superscription was his hand but the Letter also, and I might open and read it, and (if it might be) present it to the intended Assembly at Providence: of which we shall hear when it pleaseth the mercifull hand of the Lord to bring us to those Transactions.The Sum of the Letter In short, it was refused there also, & therefore I have judged it fit, since it was so solemnly flung out both at Providence and Newport that it should have as solemn a Publication to the whole world,My self reproved in the Letter in 3 particulars and the rather because it is a witness of Truth as to the two first dayes transactions, impartially reproving my Opposites and me also where he conceived we were failing: It is true I am not of my Brothers p. 110Conscience as to the Discipline of Christ, viz. that I ought to have admonished the Quakers in private, before I had so publickly &c. since they proclaimed their sin like Sodom on the house top: and it is preposterous to run from House-top-sins to closet Concealments and Admonitions.

2. Nor can I own the Quakers in their wayes and worships to be Servants of the Lord (as my Brother calls them) any more then the greedy Wolves, devouring the souls of the Ephesians, Act. 20. were the meek and innocent Lambs and sheep of Christ.

3. Nor doe I think I charged them too deep or too sharply,The d…fference of the Quakers as my Brother speaks: I knew the Foxes and Wolves (the able Leaders amongst them) do not run away with Pigs and Worldly Swine only, but that some Lambs and Chickens of Christ Iesus are carried away in their (Soul bloody) jaws also, whom I beseech to remember themselves, and I humbly beseech the God and Father of mercies to pull them out, and help all that love his Name, to help pull them out as Brands from the Eternal Burnings. Sharpness sometimes a duty.As for the Wolves and Foxes the Blind Leaders, the Chapmen that by feigned words make Merchandize of Souls (2 Pet. 2.) their [71] mouths must be stopped, and the Prey rescued from their Jawes, and because we ought to save what is saveable, and to recover poor sinners Leaders and Followers from their corrupt and rotten Profession we ought to use Sharpness, Tit. 1. Reprove them sharply (Apotómoce, cuttingly) that they may be found, or recover in the Faith of Iesus.

p. 111These three words I thought fit to say as to my self, let the Quakers answer for themselves, who I fear will answer to my Brother as they did to me [Lyes, slanders, false Accusations, &c.] However the Reader is here presented with the Copy of it.