Popery Anatomized, Section 23

Popery Anatomized · Section 23

p. 278SECTION XXIII. Concerning the Viſibility of the Church, and whither the Viſible Church may make defection?

Maſter John Welſch.

THirdly, I anſwer: The Spirit of God fore-tels that when the Antichriſt ſhal come, the defection ſhal be univerſal, and all Nations ſhal be drunken with the wine of her fornication.

M. Gilbert Brown.

Where this is written, M John tells not. For I am ſure, as it is ſet down here, there is no ſuch thing in our Bibles, no not in their own corrupted Bibles, except they have augmented them of new. That there ſhal be an univerſal defection, it is altogether repugnant to the Word of God, as I have ſhewed before, in proving the Church always to continue. For the ſame place where I believe he alledges to, hath theſe words; And it was given unto him to make war with the Saints and to overcome them: And power was given him upon every tribe and people and tongue, and nation, and all that inhabit the earth adored it, whoſe names be not written in the book of life of the Lamb, Rev. 13 7.8. Here any man may ſee that the Saints of God that ſhal be perſecute by the Antichriſt, & ſuch that is written in the book of life, ſhal not make defection, then it ſhal not be an univerſal defectiō. And alſo M. John afterward in finding ſome of his Religion that ſaid againſt the Antichriſt the Pope, the time bygone, is contrary to himſelf here, that the defection ſhal not be univerſal. And where he ſaith, that all Nations ſhal be drunk…n with the wine of her fornication, the text is otherwiſe; Becauſe all Nations have drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication: that is, that the people of all Nations that have obeyed her, ſhal be puniſhed with the wrath of God, and not that all the world ſhould make defection.

M. John Welſch his Reply.

You fight againſt your own ſhadow, M. Gilbert: and p. 279whereas ye can find nothing juſtly to quarrel in my words being rightly taken, and taken as the Scripture takes them: you deviſe a meaning of your own brain, and would father it upon me, that ye may the more eaſily have ſomewhat to ſpeak againſt. For I neither ſpake it, nor meant it, that the elect ſhould make defection in the time of the Antichriſt. I am ſo far from it, that ſuppoſe I believe aſſuredly that this propheſie is fulfilled in your own Church, yet I know aſſuredly that the Lord reſerved his own elect to himſelf, who was kept free from your Idolatry, as he promiſed, Rev. 14. and Hiſtories record of ſome, whereof I did ſet down ſome of their names. But this is the doctrine of one of your own Church, Dominicus a Soto in lib. 4. ſent. diſt. 46. quaest. 1. art. 1. who believed it aſſuredly, That the faith of Jeſus Chriſt, and Religion, ſhould be utterly extinguiſhed through the perſecution of the Antichriſt, if Bellarmin ſpeak true of him, lib. 3. de Rom. Pont. cap. 17. And ſo turn the point of your ſword, M. Gilbert, upon your own brother, who ſo taught, and not upon me, who is far from it. And if ye will ſay, wherefore then called I it univerſal? I anſwer: Becauſe the Scripture calls it a defection, without any addition or reſtraint: and your Rhemists grant, That this defection ſhal be a revolting of Kings, People, and Provinces, and the publick intercourſe of the faithful with the Church of Rome ſhal ceaſe: And that the dayly ſacrifice ſhal be aboliſhed most univerſally throughout all Nations and Churches of the world, by Antichrist himſelf, Annot. upon 2. Theſſ. 2. And Bellarmin ſaith, lib. 3. cap. 16. That he ſhal be Monarch of the whole world. Therefore this Kingdom by your own confeſſion ſhal be univerſal: and ſeeing his Kingdom is an apoſtaſie or defection; for as many as ſhal obey him, ſhal make defection from the faith: therefore by the doctrine of your own Church, it muſt be an univerſal defection. And the Scripture ſaith p. 280expreſly, That he ſhal make all, both ſmal and great, &c. to receive a mark on their right hand, and on their fore-heads: and that no man may buy or ſell, &c. and that all Nations have drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, Rev. 13.16. and 14.8 and 18.3. Now whither I might call that univerſal, which the Scripture calls all, and your Rhemiſts and Bellarmin makes ſo general and univerſal, that it ſhal poſſeſs all the Kingdoms of the earth, let the Chriſtian Reader judge. And let me ask you, M. Gilbert, Do you not believe that the Church is Catholick, or Univerſal? And do you not think with one of your own number, to wit, Coſterus a Jeſuit, in Enchirid. that the Church is called Univerſal becauſe the faith of the Church is ſcattered in all Nations? and yet for all this, all particular Nations, and all particular men receives not this faith, and yet notwithſtanding it is Univerſal, and is called Univerſal ſtill. And doth not the Scripture propheſie, that in Abraham all the Nations ſhal be bleſſed, Gal. 3.8. and yet for all this, there were and is, millions of the Gentils that are not bleſſed in him? Why then, in like manner, may not the defection in the time of the Antichriſt be called univerſal, although the elect be exeemed from it? But wherefore inſiſt I to refute this vain quarrelling of words, which ſerves to no purpoſe? So then, this that I ſaid is both in your Tranſlation, and ours in ſubſtance, and is not contrary to that which I ſaid afterward.

As for that place of Scripture which ye cite here, Rev. 3.7 8. it is not ſpoken here of the Antichriſt, but of the perſecution of the Roman Emperors. As for that calumny of yours, in calling our Bibles corrupted and augmented: this is your ſin, M. Gilbert, whereof one day ye ſhal make an account to the Majeſty of God, for the ſlandering and bearing falſe witneſs of the truth of God. And to ſpeak the truth, this is true of you: For both you have p. 281added to the Scriptures of God: firſt, the Apocrypha; next, your traditions, which your Church hath decreed to be received with equal reverence and godlineſs with the Scripture, Concil. Trident. ſeſſ. 4. thirdly, the Decretal Epiſtles of your Popes, which ſome of you have reckoned in the number of the Canonical Scripture, Gratianus diſt. 19. & Alphonſus de genero. in theſauro Chriſt. Relig. cap. 3. num. 5. And alſo you have corrupted the Scriptures of God by your corrupt tranſlation, eſpecially that of the Colledge of Rhemes. The which to be true, if time would ſerve, I might ſoon be able to prove, which hath been ſufficiently proved by that learned and worthy man of God Doctor Fulk; unto the which, you, nor all your Clergy, have not anſwered as yet, for ought I know, nor never is able to do.

And as for the laſt point, wherein ye ſay, that the text is otherways then I ſet down, let the Chriſtian Reader judge whether my words be one in ſubſtance with this text, or not: For ſuppoſe this be ſet down in the preterit-time, and I ſpake it in the future time, yet it is a propheſie of a thing to come: and your Church grants it is not fulfilled yet, therefore they are both one in ſubſtance. And as for your expoſition, where you expone this of the puniſhment of the people that have obeyed her, and not of their ſin in communicating with her Idolatry, that is manifeſtly againſt the text. For this is ſet down here as the cauſe of her puniſhment, which is pronounced before in theſe words, Babylon is fallen, &c. Now the reaſon, becauſe all Nations have drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; whereby in the Scripture is ſignified Idolatry; and it is called, the wine of the wrath, &c. becauſe her fornication provoked God to wrath. And Aretas exponeth this fornication, a defection from every good. And in the 18. chapter it is more evident, where after the denunciation of her fall, this reaſon is ſubjoyned, Becauſe all Nations have p. 282drunken of the wine of the wrath, &c. and the Kings of the earth have committed fornication with her: and the marchands of the earth are waxed rich through the aboundance of her pleaſures. The which as they cannot be underſtood of the puniſhment, but of the defection; ſo this drinking cannot be underſtood of their puniſhment, but of their communication with her Idolatrie: And yet however it be, this proves that univerſal defection, of the which I ſpake.

Maſter John Welſch.

And the Church of God ſhal be latent, and flee to the wilderneſs, and there lurk, and be fed of God all that time ſecretly.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

It is a wonder to hear the Word of God abuſed, not only with falſe expoſitions repugnant to the words ſelf, but alſo alledging the word falſly. For the text of S. John hath but this (for he notes no place, becauſe he knowes it may not abide a tryal) And the woman fled unto the wilderneſs, where ſhe had a place prepared of God, that there they might feed her a thouſand two hundred and threeſcore dayes. Here there is no word that ſhe ſhal be latent, nor lurk, nor be ſecret. And if M John will mean that the fleeing to the wilderneſs, is nothing but to be inviſible, and to ly ſecret, then it muſt follow that the whore of Babylons ſelf muſt be inviſible and ſecret. For the ſame S John ſaith, And the Angel took me away in ſpirit into the deſert, and I ſaw a woman ſitting upon a skarlet colored beaſt, full of names of blasphemy, having ſeven heads and ten horns. This word (deſert) ſignifies more properly to be ſecret or inviſible, then the word (wilderneſs.) It is true appearantly, that if this woman ſignifie the Church of Chriſt, that in the time of the Antichriſt ſhe ſhal be redacted to a ſmal number, as it were in a wilderneſs, and ſhal not poſſeſs every Nation, as ſhe had wont to do: but that ſhe may be made inviſible, and not to be ſeen, there is no true Catholick that expones it ſo. And ſuch like, this time ſhal be but ſhort, that is, for 1260. dayes, as the text ſaith, which is but three years p. 283and an half. And if M. Johns Church had been but ſo long inviſible, we ſhould have diſpenſed with the ſame. But it hath been inviſible theſe thouſand years, as it is now profeſſed in Scotland, and much more, as young Merchiſton hath in his book upon the Revelation, chap. 12. verſ. 14.

M. John Welſch his Reply.

All that you can find fault with here, is this, that I ſaid, the Church in the time of the Antichriſt, ſhould be latent, and lurk, and be fed ſecretly; the which hath ſtirred you up in ſuch a choler, that you have cryed out with admiration, that I have abuſed the Scripture, &c. Now tell me, M. Gilbert, whither is it becauſe theſe ſame words are not found in the Scripture, or becauſe the doctrine it ſelf cannot be warranted by the ſame? If the former, then I ſay you are but a quarreller about words. And all the doctrine which ye have ſet down in this your anſwer, is not ſet down in ſo many termes in the Scripture, and yet ye will have it to be the doctrine of Gods Spirit (ſuppoſe it be not ſo.) So it ſufficeth that this which I ſaid be warranted by the Scripture, ſuppoſe the ſame termes be not found. If the other, then I ſay, beſide other places of Scripture, this ſame place which ye quote here confirmes the ſame. For know ye not that the wilderneſs is a place of refuge and ſecrecie, from the tyranny of their purſuers? And they that flie to the ſame, they flie to lurk there, and to be kept cloſe and ſecret from the rage of their perſecuters, for the ſafety of their lives. So while it is propheſied, That this woman (whereby is ſignified the Church) which ſuppoſe ye conditionally expone ſo: yet Sanderus 40. demonſtrat. one of your own number, expones it to be the Church without all doubt ſhal flie in the wilderneſs from the face of the dragon, and that for her ſafety, and there be fed. &c. Is it not then manifeſt that ſhe ſhal be ſecret and lurk then, p. 284and not be ſo open and viſible as ſhe was before? And if this be an abuſe of the Scripture, then not only your ſelf hath abuſed it, but alſo ſundry of your own Church, as the Rhemists, Bellarmin and Sanderus. For your ſelf ſaith, That in the time of the Antichrist, ſhe ſhal be redacted in a ſmal number, as it were in a wilderneſs, and ſhal not poſſeſs every Nation, as ſhe had wont to do. For what is this elſe but to lurk and be latent, and to be fed ſecretly, in compariſon of that eſtat wherein ſhe was before? And therefore the only thing that I inferred on this in the end, was, that no man ſhould think that the Church of God was ever open and viſible, in ſuch a flowriſhing eſtat as it is now. And the Rhemiſts annot. in 2. Theſſ. ſay, That in the time of the Antichriſt, this great defection or revolt ſhal be of Kingdoms, People, and Provinces, from the open external obedience and communion with the Church of Rome. So that their communion with her ſhal be in heart, and the practiſe thereof in ſecret, and he ſhal aboliſh the publick exerciſe of all Religions, true or falſe, ſave that which is done to himſelf: So that the Maſs, they ſay, ſhal be had but in ſecret then. And Bellarmin lib. 3. de Rom. Pont. cap. 17. & 18. and Sanderus demonſt. 35. & 37. is of the ſame mind, That his cruel perſecution ſhal ſtay all publick exerciſe of Religion, and he ſhal make open warfare with the whole Church, and ſhal endeavor to deſtroy the univerſal eſtat of the whole Chriſtian Commonwealth, and ſhal ſhut up the door of Sacraments, and ſhal ſuffer no man any more to enter in the Church of Chriſt, and ſhal be Monarch of the whole world. Now if this be true, whether ſhal the Church of Chriſt by your own doctrine be fed ſecretly, or not be latent and lurk, in the time of the Antichriſt? let all men judge. But what a contradictorious ſpirit is this of yours, who to gain-ſay the thing that I writ, cares not to involve your ſelf in a contradiction, not only to the truth, but alſo to your own Catholicks. Either therefore wonder at your p. 285own Catholicks, who have ſpoken as much and more in this point then I did, and at your ſelf alſo, who grants as much in ſubſtance as I meant, that ye and they have abuſed the Scripture, or elſe leave off to wonder at me, and wonder at the vail which is hung over your own eyes, which hinders you not only to underſtand the truth, but alſo to underſtand what your ſelf and your own brethren teach. Now as for your reaſon, it is not ſaid that Babylon was in the deſert, but that John was taken in the ſpirit; that is, raviſhed in the ſpirit (as in the 1. and 4. chapter) into the deſert; that is, into a ſolitar and heavenly contemplation of that viſion which was afterward ſhown him. For as this carrying of him in the ſprit, ſignifies his ſpiritual raviſhing, ſo this deſert ſignifies the ſolitarineſs of his contemplation. And as that lifting up of Ezekiel by the locks of the hair of his head between the heaven and the earth, and that carying of him to the door of the innermoſt port towards the North, to ſee the abominations of Jeruſalem, was only in viſion, and not bodily. So I take this carrying of John in ſpirit to the wilderneſs, to ſee the whore of Babylon, to have been in viſion only, and not bodily. And whereas ye ſay that this word deſert, ſignifies more properlie to be hid and inviſible then the word wilderneſs; I pray you, tell me, M. Gilbert, what is between deſert and wilderneſs, ſave that the firſt is driven from the Latin, and the ſecond is Engliſh? Muſt you be ſet to the Grammar-ſchool again? What fancie is this wherewith ye are poſſeſſed, that you put a difference between wilderneſs and deſert? Is there any difference, if you underſtood the Greek language, between foreign and foreign; that is, between deſert and deſert, wilderneſs and wilderneſs? And if ye have ever read the New Teſtament in Greek, there is but the ſelf-ſame word foreign, in both theſe places, which ſignifieth deſert or wilderneſs. But where have you been when ye did imagine p. 286this difference? Appearantly ye have been dreaming in ſome wilderneſs, or elſe wandring in the wilderneſs of your own blind imaginations. As for the expoſition of your true Catholicks, we count not much of them. Always theſe whom ye call your true Catholicks Bellarmin, the Rhemiſts, and Sanderus, have been plain in this matter, and have ſpoken more in this point then we do. And as for the time of this her ſecrecie and lurking 1260 days, which you expound literally to be but three years and an half. I anſwer, This expoſition of yours is againſt: firſt, the cuſtom of propheſies, which are expounded figuratively, and not literally, as theſe 70. weeks in Daniel concerning Chriſt, where there a day is put for a year. Next, it is againſt the whole circumſtances of the text: For will you expound this woman figuratively for the Church, as Sanderus doth: and the wilderneſs unto the which ſhe fled, figuratively for the ſmal number whereunto ſhe ſhal be redacted, as you do; and the ſun wherewith ſhe was clad, and the moon which was under her feet, and the twelve ſtars that was upon her head, and the red Dragon which purſued her with ten heads, &c. all figuratively? and yet will ye expound the time of her being in the wilderneſs literally? What violence is this which ye will offer unto the holy truth of God, to expound all the reſt figuratively; and only the time literally? So then a day here is ſet for a year, as alſo it is taken in the ſame ſenſe in the 2. chapter of the Reve…ation, in the Epiſtle to Smyrna, where it is ſaid, They ſhal have tribulation for the ſpace of ten dayes; that is, for the ſpace of ten years. As for the inviſibility of our Church, becauſe that queſtion comes afterward, therefore I omit it now. Only this, as your Hierarchie and abomination of your Church grew, ſo did the purity of the doctrine of Jeſus Chriſt in his Church decay. And as your Popes came not to their hight at an inſtant, and brought not in p. 287their abominations at an inſtant, but piece and piece, and by long proceſs of time: So the purity of the truth of God decayed not at an inſtant, but piece and piece and by a long proceſs of time. For the degrees of your exalting, was the degrees of the depreſſing of the truth of God in his Church. As for our diſpenſation, ſuppoſe your Church uſeth not to give them without money laid down, yet we will neither buy them, nor have them for nought. So keep your diſpenſations at home (M. Gilbert) while we ſend for them.

M. John Welſch.

And the Miniſters thereof ſhal preach in ſackcloth, that is, under perſecution, all that time, and at the laſt they ſhal be put to death for the teſtimonie of Jeſus, and for ſpeaking againſt their falſe Worſhip and Religion.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

It appears to me that M. John hath found ſome new Revelation, other then that of S. John: for he notes no place to us: and theſe words of his are no way in S. John, and therefore as an invention of his own head, we will reject the ſame. Indeed we have in S. John, That God ſhal give to us two witneſſes, and they ſhal propheſie 1260. dayes clad with ſackcloth, Rev. 11.3. But this can no wayes agree with this purpoſe of his. For why there ſhal be but two of theſe: and there is more then two hundred Miniſters in Scotland. And theſe two ſhal propheſie, but our Miniſters are no Prophets, (albeit they foretell things oftentimes that is not true) & all the propheſies, if they propheſie at any time, is of evil, and not of good. Theſe two ſhal propheſie but three years and an half: but our Miniſters have propheſied theſe 38. years, if preaching be propheſying. And theſe two ſhal be clad in ſackcloth; but our Miniſters, chiefly of Borrowſtowns, is clad in fine black cloth, or ſilk. And ſo forth of many more differences, as is contained in the 11. chapter of the Revelation.

p. 288Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

It appears to you that I have found ſome new Revelation, other then that of S. John. So did it appear to the Jews, that the Apoſtle Paul taught all men every where againſt the Law of Moſes, Acts 21.28. and yet it was the truth, as he himſelf teſtifies, he ſpake nothing beſide that which Moſes and the Prophets fore-told was to come, Acts 26.22. So every appearance is not truth. It is but the ſcales that are upon your eyes, that makes this ſo to appear to you. For the Scripture of God, and this Revelation of S. John, is ſufficient to us to make it manifeſt, that your head is the Antichriſt, and your doctrine is that Apoſtaſie that was propheſied to come, ſo that we need no new revelations, as ye do: For becauſe the revelations already made by God to his Church, and written in his holy Scripture, doth not warrant your abominable and falſe doctrine, and your Popes ſupremacy, which is the foundation of all: therefore you and your Church flies to unwritten traditions, and fained revelations to prove the ſame. As for example, becauſe your Church hath not ſo much as a ſyllable in the whole Book of God, to prove that Peters ſeat was tranſlated from Antiochia to Rome, which is the whole foundation of all Popery: Therefore your Pope Marcellinus in his Canon Law, cauſa 24. quaeſt. 1. cap. Rogamus. grounds the certainty of this upon a fained revelation, that Peter by the commandment of God did tranſlate it. But to leave you with your new revelations, what have ye for you for this your appearance? You ſay, firſt, becauſe I note no place: and next, becauſe theſe words of mine are no wayes in S. John: therefore ye conclud it to be an invention of my own. As to the firſt: Is this a good reaſon, I note not the place, therefore I have found out ſome new revelation? You muſt be ſent to the Logick ſchools again, to p. 289learn the right manner of reaſoning. I noted no place; Ergo, I could not: that will not follow. As to the ſecond, my words are no wayes found in S. John: Ergo, I have found a new revelation. But what if the ſenſe be found? What if the ſelf-ſame doctrine be found in S. John, ſuppoſe not in the ſame words? Then it will not follow that I have found out a new revelation, or that this is the invention of my own brain. This place which ye quote here, Rev. 11.3. ſufficiently confirms all that I ſaid. For your ſelf will not deny, and Bellarmin lib. 3. cap. 6 the Rhemiſts annot. in Apoc. cap. 11. and Sanderus in his Demonſtrations, grant, that theſe two Witneſſes are they who ſhal preach in the time of the Antichriſt, ſuppoſe they expound them of Elias and Enoch, and that they ſhal be perſecuted, and put to death by him. What a blindneſs is this, M. Gilbert, that hath overfyled your eyes, that for the writing of that ſame doctrine which the Scripture warrants, your Divines grant, and your ſelf will not deny, you have ſaid, that it appeared to you that I have found out ſome new revelation? But judge thou (Chriſtian Reader) what thou may preſume upon M. Gilberts appearances. But you ſay, this agrees not with my purpoſe, and that becauſe of the differences between theſe two Witneſſes, and the Miniſters of Scotland. Firſt, I do not mean by theſe two Witneſſes the Miniſters of Scotland only, but the Miniſters of all the Reformed Churches in Europe, who have departed out of your Babel, and have ſhaken off the yoke of the tyrannous bondage of your Head, the Man of ſin: and not only theſe who now live, but theſe alſo who now reſt from their labors, and ſleep in the Lord, of whom a great many were perſecuted, and put to death by your tyranny, for ſpeaking againſt your abominations. Now as to theſe differences which ye mark, the fountain from the which this ſprings, is your miſtaking of the propheſies of p. 290God, and exponing them literally; which according to the uſe of propheſies, and eſpecially theſe which are ſet down in this Revelation, and all the circumſtances of this text, ought to be exponed figuratively. Theſe ſame two Witneſſes are called two Olives, two Candleſticks; and it is ſaid of them, that fire comes out of their mouthes, and deſtroys their enemies, Rev. 11.4.5.6. &c. If you will not be ſo abſurd and ridiculous, as to expone theſe things literally, but figuratively; otherwiſe ye will make them monſters, trees, and candleſticks: why then do ye expone this place concerning their number, work, time, apparel, &c. literally, and not figuratively, as the reſt of their works and properties muſt be exponed? the which if you had done, then would you have ſeen no difference between the Miniſters of the Goſpel that reſiſted your Pope, and theſe two Witneſſes here: but the one to be the propheſie of the other, and the other to be the accompliſhing of the propheſie. As for their number then, they are ſaid to be but two, that is, few; and yet ſuch a ſufficient number, as may prove and qualifie any thing by the Law. For by the Law, Out of the mouth of two or three witneſſes, ſhal every word be establiſhed. So the Miniſters of the Goſpel, in the time of your Antichriſt and darkneſs, was but few at the beginning: and yet ſo many, as ſerved for to eſtabliſh the truth of God by their teſtimony, in the conſciences of ſo many whom God had appointed to ſave. As for their work of propheſying, the Scripture calls preaching, propheſying, 1. Cor. 12. and 13. and 14. And the Rhemists annot. in 11. Rev. grant, that theſe Witneſſes ſhal preach againſt the Antichriſt. And whereas you ſay, that we fore-tell ofttimes things that is not true: this is your calumnie and lie, M. Gilbert, and ſo ought to have no credit. And the propheſies of the Miniſters of this land againſt your Antichriſtian Kingdom, ye have found by experience, that they p. 291have been too true. And their propheſies are truer then the propheſies of one of your Popes Hildebrand, who openly in the pulpit on the ſecond holy day in Eaſter week, in the preſence of diverſe Biſhops, and Cardinals, and of the people and Senat of Rome, propheſied, That the King whoſe name was Henry, ſhould die before the feaſt of Peter next enſuing: or at the leaſt that he ſhould be ſo dejected from his Kingdom, that he ſhould not be able any more to gather above the number of ſix Knights. And this he preached with this confirmation, Never accept me for Pope any more, if this propheſie be not fulfilled, but pluck me from the altar. But he was a falſe Prophet in the ſame, for neither was fulfilled. And whereas ye ſay, if they propheſie at any time, it is of evil, and not of good: ſo ſaid Achab of the Prophet of the Lord, 1. Kings 22.8. and therefore he hated him: ſo you ſpeak with the ſame ſpirit againſt us, that Achab ſpake with againſt the Lords Prophet. And what good can be ſpoken of your Babel, ſince the Lord hath fore-told the ruine of it, & in part hath been accompliſhed? And ſome of your own number, as Hildegardis, Briget, Catherine de Sens, have fore-told of the deſtruction of your Church, & the reformation of the Church of Chriſt. As for the time, it was ſpoken of before; and I ſuppoſe ye have thought it too long, and yet be in patience, M. Gilbert, for it muſt continue, and your Babel muſt down. As for the clothing of ſackcloth, it was the apparel of ſuch as was in dolor and in mourning; whereby is ſignified the ſorrow and dolor that ſhould ariſe to the true Miniſters of Chriſt through the perſecution of the Antichriſt & his members, & their idolatrie and abominations. The which hath been ſo clearly fulfilled in the Preachers of the Goſpel ſince John Hus his dayes, and before alſo, even to this day, that he muſt be blinded of the Lord who ſees it not. And whereas ye caſt up the clothing of the Miniſtry in this land, ye have forgotten your ſelf, and your Clergy, and p. 292your Head the Pope, with his triple Crown, with all the rable of his Prelats, Abbots, Biſhops, Cardinals, &c. as full of riotous pride and pomp, as ever were the Perſian Kings. See Bernard. de confid. ad Eugen. lib. 4. Platin. de vita Pontif. in Paulo 2.

His clothes be made of precious ſtones, his gorgeous Miter dight

With jewels rare, with gliſtering gold, and with 11A precious ſtone, called a Carbuncle, of the which kind one that fell out of the Popes Miter by a miſchance at his coronation, was worth 6000. crowns, Platin. in vita Clementis 5.Pyropus bright.

O very Troyan trulls, no Troyans.

The pomp and glory of whoſe Court, doth ſurmount all the pomp and glory of all the Princes in Europe, as ſome that have ſeen it reports. How then can ye juſtly quarrel our attire? Can you ſay that we paſs the bounds of that modeſty and comelineſs which the Apoſtle requires in the over-ſeers of the Church of Chriſt, ſeeing you will have all the outward pomp and glory of your Popes and Prelats▪ according as it was propheſied of you, Rev. 17. to be comprehended within the definition of comelineſs and modeſtie? But you are like the Lamians, of whom it is reported, that they had but one eye, and when they went forth, they took it with them to look upon others, and when they came in their own houſes, they laid it beſide them: You look to your neighbors, but ye over-ſee your ſelf. So for all the differences which ye have yet aſſigned, it remains ſure, that by theſe two Witneſſes here, are ſignified the Miniſters of the Goſpel.

Master Gilbert Brown.

But note here, I pray you, how well theſe new Evangeliſts agree p. 293in the expoſition of this Revelation of S. John (for all their grounds & proofs is upon propheſies and dark ſpeakings.) Young Merchiſton in his book upon the Revelation, chap. 11. verſ 3. expones theſe Witneſſes to be the Old and New Teſtament, as he proves in the 21. Propoſition, and M. John will have them the Miniſters. Merchiſton ſaith, that to be clad in ſackcloth, is to preach the Word of God with the obſcurity of mens traditions, and colored gloſſes: M. John ſaith here, that the ſackcloth ſignifies perſecution for the preaching of the Word. The notes on their Geneva Bibles printed at London, expones the ſackcloth to ſignifie poor and ſimple apparel. And Bale upon the ſame place writes, that this ſackcloth ſignifies ſober converſation. God knows if this and the like be wholſome doctrine to preach to the poor people, ſome one way, and ſome another, according to the invention of their own brains, without any proofs.

Maiſter John Welſch his Reply.

As for theſe diverſe expoſitions which ye mark in us, that have ſo ſtirred up your affections, that ye cry out, God knows whether this be wholſome doctrine to teach the poor people, or not. I anſwer; That theſe diverſe expoſitions of ours, are all agreeable to the analogie of faith, as your ſelf will not deny: and therefore cannot be called unwholſome doctrine. Otherwiſe, not only the Fathers, but alſo your own Doctors, and Biſhops, and Popes, have delivered unwholſome doctrine, by your reaſon; for they have exponed innumerable places of Scripture diverſly: which is ſo manifeſt, that I need not prove it, and your ſelf alſo hath delivered unwholſome doctrine here: for ye expone bleſſing and thanksgiving, for two contrary things, and yet Bellarmin ſaith, that ſome Catholicks take them both for one. And what ſhal I ſay of your diverſe expoſitions, which were tolerable, ſo being they were according to the proportion of faith; your contradictions one to another, and that not only in exponing the Scripture, but p. 294in the main points of your Religion; ſome holding one thing, and ſome another, as partly hath, and partly ſhal be marked, are manifold? And if diverſe expoſitions of a place of Scripture be unwholſome doctrine, as ye ſay, then ſurely this point of your Catholick doctrine, which teaches, that the Scripture hath a five-fold ſenſe, and that it may be five diverſe ways exponed, muſt be unwholſome doctrine, and then ye loſe more then you can win by this. Beware, M. Gilbert, that by this dealing ye bring not your ſelf in ſuſpicion that ye are forſaking your Catholick Faith: For this is a point of it, as Bellarmin reports, lib. 3. de interpret. verb. cap. 3. As for your calumnies: firſt, in calling us new Evangeliſts, I anſwered to that before: next, in ſaying that all our proofs and grounds are upon propheſies and dark ſayings. Firſt, you injure the holy Ghoſt in calling his propheſies dark: for the cauſe of this is not in them, but in our blindneſs. Secondly, ye ſpeak too plain an untruth: for it is more then manifeſt, that not only propheſies, but alſo the plain and ſimple doctrine of the whole Scripture, is the grounds and proofs of our Religion, as is manifeſt by the points of doctrine which we have handled here.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

And it follows in M. John. And at the laſt, ſaith he, they ſhal be put to death, &c. Here is two things to be noted. Firſt, that the Church ſhal not be inviſible in the time of Antichriſt: for if the Paſtors of the Church be inviſible, how ſhal they be taken, and put to death? If the Antichriſt and his members ſhal ſlay them, how can they do the ſame, except they know and may ſee them? To be inviſible, is not to be known or ſeen: but they will ſee and know them, or elſe they cannot diſcern them from their own, whereby they may put them to death, and ſave their own. The ſecond thing to be noted, that our Miniſters in Scotland, except they be put to death by the Pope, they bear not the teſtimony of Chriſt. p. 295For theſe are M. Johns own words. And S. John ſaith, That the beaſt ſhal ſlay the two Witneſſes, Rev. 11.7.8. Now by M. John, the beaſt is the Pope, and the Witneſſes is the Miniſters: therefore the Pope muſt ſlay the Miniſters: and after that, their bodies muſt ly three dayes and an half, not in Scotland, but in Jeruſalem, for there was the Lord of theſe two Witneſſes ſlain, Rev 11.19.11.12. And after, they muſt revive and aſcend up to heaven in a cloud in the ſight of their enemies, and ſo forth. Which things I truſt ſhal come to paſs to none of them in our dayes, nor long after the Laird of Merchiſtons doomſday, in his 14. Prop.

Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

As for the firſt thing which you infer here, concerning the inviſibility of the Church, becauſe you have the ſame argument afterward, I refer the anſwer of it to that place. As for the ſecond thing which ye infer, that except the Miniſters of Scotland be put to death by the Pope, they bear not the teſtimony of Chriſt. I anſwer: As it is true that it is propheſied of the Antichriſt, that he ſhal ſlay the two Witneſſes of God, Rev. 11.7. and that he ſhal make war with the Saints, and overcome them, Rev. 11.12.13.15.17. ſo is it likewiſe propheſied, that his cruelty ſhal not always continue; but at the laſt, The Lord ſhal take his Kingdom in his own hand, and the Goſpel ſhal be preached to them that dwel upon the earth, and Babel that great city ſhal fall, Rev. 13.6.8.9. and 18.21. So that the blood which your Church hath ſpilt of the Saints of God already in all the parts of Europe theſe three hundred years by paſt, and that in ſuch abundance, that ſuppoſe the Lord may number them, yet no man is able to number them. And the patience and ſuffering of our brethren, is a ſufficient evidence that both your Popes are the Antichriſt, and they are the Miniſters of Chriſt, ſuppoſe they ſlay no mo of them. And although the Lord hath ſhortened your power, yet ye want no good will to ſpill the blood of the reſt. That ranſacking p. 296of Germany, that cruel perſecution of Queen Mary, and bloody Inquiſition of Spain in the Low Countreys, and that moſt ſavage and cruel maſſacre of Paris, and that Spaniſh Navy, which the Lord diſcomfited with his own mighty and outſtretched arm in the 1588. year of God, doth ſufficiently teſtifie what heart ye bear to the Miniſters of Scotland, if your power were according to your malice: But fulfill ye the meaſure of your fathers, that the blood of all the righteous may come upon you. As for the Propheſie of the ignominious handling of the bodies of theſe Witneſſes after their ſlaughter, it is alſo fulfilled by your Popes, and their authority, upon the carcaſſes of the Saints of God, which in all parts almoſt where ever their blood was ſhed, was moſt ignominiouſly handled, as though they had been not the bodies of men, but the dead carions of dogs and ſwine. Let both Hiſtories, and ſome who yet live, bear witneſs of this. As for the time and place, and their reviving and aſcending up to heaven, it is to be underſtood after the manner of propheſies, myſtically and figuratively, as I have proved before. The time of three days and an half, ſignifying all the time of your tyrannous cruelty. The place of their ignominy, is the ſtreets of that great City, which is here called Sodom and Egypt, and the place where our Lord was crucified, not literally, but foreign, ſpiritually, as the text ſaith, Rev. 17.9 18. And alſo called Babylon, in the 14. and 17. and 18. of the Revelation, which is literally, that ſeven hilled City, which hath dominion over the Kings of the earth, Rev. 11.8 and 17 5. which as Bellarmin lib. de Rom Pont. cap. 2. confeſſes, is Rome properly. So as this great City is neither Sodom, nor Egypt, nor Babylon (ſuppoſe it be called ſo) literally, but only myſtically and ſpiritually as the Scripture ſaith, and your ſelf will not deny, for the likeneſs between them: Sodom, for her filthineſs and uncleanneſs: Egypt and Babylon, for her tyranny p. 297and cruelty over the Saints of God, wherein ſhe reſembles them. So is ſhe not literally the place where Chriſt was crucified, but only myſtically and ſpiritually, for the likeneſs between them: that as by the authority of the Emperor of Rome, his Deputy Pilat, our Lord was crucified, for the falſe challenge of treaſon againſt the Emperor, which was falſly and wickedly laid to his charge: and therefore is ſaid here by the holy Ghoſt, to be crucified at Rome; that is, by the authority of the Rulers at Rome: So by the authority of the Popes, who now reign, and have reigned theſe many years at Rome, Chriſt is crucified again in his members, becauſe they will not receive his mark, and worſhip him. And as Jeruſalem boaſted her ſelf to be a holy City, and the ſpouſe of Chriſt, and yet was an harlot, a murderer, and a perſecuter of the Saints: ſo Rome doth boaſt her ſelf to be an holy City, and the ſpouſe of Chriſt, and the Head of all; and yet is now, and is long ſince, become an harlot, and a murderer, and a perſecuter of the Saints. And if ye will ask, When did the bodies of the Saints ly in the ſtreets of Rome? I anſwer: As by the gates in the city, in the fourth command, Exod 20. is not meant the gates of the City properly, but the authority and juriſdiction of the City: ſo by the ſtreets of Rome, is not only meant the gates within the walls of Rome, but all the places and parts whither his power & dominion hath ſpread its ſelf. So that all the places where the Popes of Rome have exerciſed their tyranny over the Saints are called here the ſtreets of that great City. All theſe therefore who have been cruelly murdered by the Popes authority, in England, Scotland, France, the Low Countreys, &c. and whoſe bodies have been caſt out, and whoſe bodies have been ignominiouſly handled they have lyen in the ſtreets of that great City. And as all the reſt of this Propheſie is to be underſtood ſpiritually: ſo is this, reviving and aſcending p. 298of theſe Witneſſes to heaven in the ſight of their enemies, to be underſtood, not literally, but ſpiritually. So this is not the meaning of the holy Ghoſt, that theſe Witneſſes whom the Antichriſt ſhal ſlay, ſhal be raiſed up again in their own perſons (which yet ſhal be at the laſt day in the general reſurrection:) but that the Lord ſhal raiſe up other Witneſſes, indued with that ſame Spirit which they were indued with, preaching the ſame truth, and maintaining the ſame cauſe againſt Antichriſt, as that Propheſie in the 3. of Malachie, of the ſending of Elias before the coming of Christ, was fulfilled as our Savior teſtifies, Matth. 11.10.14. not in the raiſing up of Elias in his own perſon again; but in the ſending of John Baptiſt, in the vertue and ſpirit of Elias. So this Propheſie concerning the reviving of theſe two Witneſſes, whereby was figured the faithful Miniſters of Chriſt who was murdered in the time of Popery, as John Wicleff, John Hus, Jerome of Prague, M. George Wiſhart, and many others, is fulfilled; not by raiſing up of their perſons again, but of others his faithful ſervants, who in their vertue and ſpirit, have defended and maintained that ſame doctrine and cauſe againſt the Antichriſt, as Martin Luther, Calvin, Bucer, Peter Martyr, M. Knox, and ſundry others, whom the Lord hath, and dayly raiſes up in all Countreys, for the overthrow of your Babel. As for your truſt what will come to paſs, we paſs not; for ſo much hath been fulfilled of theſe propheſies, which teſtifies your Head to be the Antichriſt, and the Miniſters of the Reformed Church to be the faithful ſervants of Chriſt. And the reſt concerning your dayly conſumption and final abolition, 2. Theſſ. 2.8. Rev. 18.2.21. and 19.20. we know aſſuredly ſhal come to paſs; becauſe the Lord hath ſo thought it, and ſaid it. And as for any further proof of the clemency and meekneſs of your Popes, if ſo the Lord will, we deſire it not. For as it is ſaid of the wicked man, p. 299Your compaſſions are cruel, and your by paſt cruelty teſtifies of what ſpirit ye are. And ſuppoſe you ſay you truſt that this (among the reſt) ſhal not come to paſs, yet I fear you long to ſee that day upon the Miniſters of Scotland, which your brethren rejoyced to ſee fulfilled in that cruel perſecution of Queen Mary in England, and in that bloody maſſacre of Paris, of the Saints of God there: For we cannot think but that ye are of the ſame ſpirit and mind which your brethren were of, otherwiſe ye are not a right Catholick. As for the Laird of Merchiſtons conjecture concerning the day of Judgement, he hath his own probable reaſons: and if you be as good as your word, as your favorers have reported of you, we will ſee the refutation of his book by you. And ſuppoſe I know the time to be uncertain to man, or Angel, as our Savior ſaith, Matth. 24.36. yet his conjecture thereof is in greater modeſty and ſobriety, then your determination thereof. Whereby if the doctrine of your Church be true concerning the Antichriſt, whom ye imagine is yet to come, and the time of his reign, which ye ſay is to be but three years and an half: then not only the year, but the very day thereof may be known of them that live in thoſe days. For the Scripture ſaith, He ſhal be aboliſhed by the brightneſs of his coming, 2. Theſſ. 2.8. Yea, that which is greater arrogancy and preſumption, the learnedeſt of your Church, Bellarmin lib. 3. de Rom. Pont. cap. 17. pag. 418. hath taken upon him to determine the very day of the coming of Chriſt to Judgement; to wit, 45. days after the periſhing of the Antichriſt. It is manifeſt (ſaith he) that after the death of the Antichriſt, there ſhal be but 45. days to the end of the world.

Maſter John Welſch.

Now if all this be true, both concerning the Antichriſt, the largeneſs of his dominion, the eſtat of the Church of God and his p. 300true Paſtors all that time, which I offer me to prove by the Scripture. And alſo that the Pope of Rome is that only Antichriſt that was to come, and is now diſcloſed: then, I ſay, no man ſhould think that the Church of God was ever open and viſible in that flowriſhing eſtat as it is now.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

But what if all theſe ſayings of his be falſe, what ſhal follow then but that M. John, and the reſt of the Miniſters are deceived, and deceive others, with ſuch vain and untrue expoſitions upon the Word of God? For take away M. Johns own invention, and the Word ſhal never have ſuch a meaning. And although M. John offer never ſo oft to prove the ſame, I ſay, he is never able to do it, nor all the Miniſters in Scotland.

Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

If all theſe ſayings of mine concerning the largeneſs of the dominion of Antichriſt, the eſtat of the Church of God, and his true Paſtors all that time, be falſe: then not only have I been deceived, but alſo Bellarmin, the Rhemiſts, and Sanderus, the chief defenders of your Church, have been deceived, and deceive others: For they have ſpoken and written as much, and further in theſe points then ever I did, as I have proved before, by their own teſtimonies. And yet I ſuppoſe your Head and Clergy will judge them to be as far from error, as you are. So either you or they, muſt be deceived in this. And as for the fulfilling of theſe propheſies in your Popes of Rome, I hope it hath been proved ſufficiently, which ye nor all the Clergy of Rome, is never able to improve. As for the reſt of your anſwer, wherein ye prove that the Pope is not the Antichriſt, I have anſwered to it in the other part of my Treatiſe concerning the Antichriſt, therefore I omit it now.

p. 301Master Gilbert Brown.

What he means that the Pope is now diſcloſed, I know not: for I underſtand that he hath not been like their Church, that ſometimes is viſible, and ſometimes not: for he hath always been known by the viſible Church, to be the viſible head thereof in place of Chriſt.

Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

My meaning is this, That ſuppoſe in the darkneſs of Papiſtry he was taken to have been the Vicare of Chriſt, yet now the Lord hath ſmitten him, and conſumed him by the ſword of his mouth, 2. Theſſ. 2.8. that is, the Word of God: and hath diſcovered him to the full, to all theſe whoſe eyes the Lord hath opened, that he is that Antichriſt which the Scripture hath fore-told was to come. And where you ſay that he hath been always known by the viſible Church to be the viſible Head thereof in place of Chriſt: I ſee you regard not what you ſay, for the maintenance of that Head and Kingdom of yours. For certainly either hath the Lord wonderfully blinded you, or elſe ye ſpeak againſt the light of your own conſcience. For are you ever able to produce one ſyllable in the whole Scripture to prove this? Yea, hath not his Monarchie and Supremacie been condemned: Firſt, by the Son of God, Matth. 18.1. and 20.25.26. Mark 10.42. Luke 22.25. Next, by the Apoſtles themſelves, 2. Cor. 1.24. 1. Pet. 5 3. Thirdly, by the Fathers of the primitive Church, in their Synods and Councils, Provincial and General, as by the Biſhops of Africk, Cyprian. Epiſt. 55. ad Cornel. about the year 255. By the General Councils of Nice, 1. Canon 5.6.17. wherein was 318 Biſhops, anno 327. Of Constantinople, Canon. 2.3 5. wherein was 150. Biſhops, anno 381. Of Epheſine, Canon 8. where was 200. Biſhops, anno 436. Of Chalcedonenſe, Actio 16. anno 454. where there was p. 302630. Biſhops. Of Conſtantinople 6. Canon. 36. anno 681. where there was 289. Biſhops. Of Nicene 2. Canon. 1. anno 781. where was preſent 350. Biſhops. Of Conſtantinople 8. Canon. 27. anno where was preſent 383. Biſhops, anno 870. Of the Council of Conſtance, Seſſ. 4.5. where was a thouſand Fathers almoſt, anno 1418. And of Baſel, Seſſ. 2.18. anno 1431. all General Councils, condemning your Popes Supremacy, as your Church now affirms of him, ſome more, ſome leſs. And alſo it is condemned by Provincial Councils, as of Antioch, Canon. 6.12.13.14.15.19.20. and of Carthage 2. Canon. 12. anno 404. and 3. confirmed in the General Council of Trullan, Canon. 26. and 6. and by the Council of Milevis, Canon. 22. condemned alſo by the Univerſities of Paris, Appellat. Univerſ. Pariſ. olione 10. ad futur. Concil. infaſtic. rerum expe. ca. fugi. and Lovane, Aeneas Sylvius de geſtis Baſil. Concil. lib. 1. and Colen, and Vienna, Hiſtor. de Europa, cap. 22. and Cracovia, Comer. de rebus Polonorum, lib. 21. So then by the authority of Councils, General and Provincial, and of Univerſities, the Monarchie and Superioritie of the Pope over all General Councils is diſallowed. And ſuppoſe the Churches of France and Germany did honor them, and gave them ſome preeminence, both of honor and power, being blinded at that time with the ſmoke that came out of the bottomleſs pit: yet it may appear by their ſupplication, ad Ludovicum 11. pro libertate Eccleſiae Gallicanae adverſus Rom. aulam defenſio Pariſienſis curiae. Gravamina nationis Germaniae exhibita Maxim. 1. that they did not allow that full Monarchie of his, but miſliked it, and hated the ſame: yea, France made laws againſt it, in Conventu Bituricenſi. Now theſe are ſuch whom your ſelves do hold for Catholicks, and yet they acknowledged not the Monarchie of your Pope. The Churches of Graecia, and of Aſia in the Eaſt, Chalcon. conc. de reb. Turc. lib. 1. & 6. p. 303and of Muſcovia, Jovius in Muſcovia, in the North, and of Ethiopia in the South, Alvarez in deſcriptione Aethiopiae, cap. 77. & 83. and of Boheme, Aeneas Sylvius hiſt. Bohem. cap. 32. Provence, Sleydan. comment. lib. 16. Piemont, M. Fox in the acts and monuments, lib. 7. And the Reformed Churches that are this day in France, Flanders, England, Scotland, and ſo forth throughout Europe, all have condemned your Popes Supremacie. So that if his Supremacie were to be put to tryal by the judgement and will of men, ſo many thouſands of Paſtors, Doctors, Synods, Councils, Univerſities and Churches, through all ages, in all Countreys, of all ſorts and eſtats, may ſuffice to put the Pope from his Supremacie: So that I think you may bluſh, M. Gilbert, that hath ſo boldly written; that he hath been alwayes acknowledged by the viſible Church to be the viſible Head of the Church, ſeeing his Monarchie was never fully acknowledged until the Lateran Council, under Leo the 10. 1516. years after Chriſt. But ſeeing the Word of God is the only juſt tryal of it, and ſeeing it is not written in the book of life: therefore I conclud, that his Supremacie is not a citizen of that new Jeruſalem, but a child of Babel; and therefore they are bleſſed that ſhal daſh it againſt the ſtones.

M. Gilbert Brown.

That the Church at any time may be inviſible, it is repugnant to the Word of God in many places, and to M. John alſo. For he gives examples afterward of ſundry, as he ſaith, that was of his Religion, and opponed themſelves to the Pope and his Clergy; and that, ſaith he, when he was come to the hight. If the true Church opponed its ſelf to the Antichriſtian Church, then it was viſible and known: and if it was known when the Popes Kingdom was at the higheſt, much more when it was low: and ſo it was always known by M. Johns ſelf.

p. 304Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

Whether oppugn ye your own imagination, M. Gilbert, here, or that which I write? If the firſt, then you are fooliſh who fight againſt your ſelf, as ye do indeed. If the ſecond, then I ſay, that which I ſaid was this: That no man ſhould think that the Church of God was ever open and viſible in that flowriſhing eſtat, as it is now. For this is our doctrine concerning the inviſibility of the Church, the which becauſe you know not, therefore you ſtumble at it, and oppugns only your own invention, and not our doctrine: and therefore your reaſons and Scriptures which ye bring here, ſerve to no purpoſe, for they make nothing againſt us. We ſay, that the Catholick Church which comprehends all the elect, is always inviſible, both becauſe the principal part thereof is in heaven: and alſo becauſe the ſenſes of men cannot diſcern who are true members of the Catholick Church here, their effectual calling, their faith, love, hope, and inward graces: their union with Chriſt their Head, their ſpiritual armor, weapons and warfare, and their Head Chriſt Jeſus, and their whole glorie is inward and inviſible, and they ſhal never be ſeen all gathered together until that great day, Epheſ. 5.25.26.27.32. Pſal. 45.13. John 10.27. 2. Tim. 2.19. Luke 11.28. Matth. 7. Epheſ. 6.12. 2. Cor. 12.3.4. So that ſuppoſe they may be ſeen outwardlie, as they are men, and ſometimes in reſpect of their outward miniſterie: yet in ſo far as they are a part of the Catholick Church; that is, in ſo far as they are choſen, and ſanctified, &c. as hath been ſaid, they cannot be diſcerned by the ſenſes of men, and ſo are inviſible. Next, we ſay that the particular viſible Churches are not always in one outward eſtat: ſometimes outwardlie glorious, ſometimes more obſcure: ſometimes openly known, and ſeen by all: ſometimes known and p. 305ſeen but by a few: ſometimes frequent, and conſiſting in many, ſometimes rare, and conſiſting in few: ſometimes adorned with outward ornaments of peace, largeneſs, outward glory and multitude: ſometimes again wanting this outward glory under perſecution: but yet having that inward glory of theſe inward graces. So that when we ſay theſe particular Churches are ſometimes inviſible, we do not mean as though they were known to none (for that is not our doctrine, M. Gilbert, as ye imagine:) but that they are not ſo openly known that they are patent to all to be the true Church, but known unto them with whom they have to do, and who profeſs the truth with them. Yea, ſometimes ſome of them are known unto the very perſecuters and enemies, by their conſtancy and perſeverance in their ſufferings, ſuppoſe they allow not their profeſſion. And in this ſtate was the Church of Iſrael in the time of Elias, when he complained that he knew none left but himſelf of the true worſhippers of God, 1. Kings 19.10. And the Church of Juda in the days of Achaz and Manaſſeh Kings of Judah, 2. Chron. 28.24. 2. Kings 16.10. And ſuch like in the time of Chriſt, both in the time of his living among them, as alſo in the time of his death and reſurrection, the Church was brought to a ſmal handful: The Princes, Prieſts, and Scribes, who only was in dignity and authority, being perſecuters of Chriſt, condemned him, and crucified him. And ſuch like in the time of the perſecution of Diocleſian the Emperor, and in the time of the Arrian hereſie, which over-ſpred, as it were, the whole world. The which alſo our Savior fore-told ſhould come to paſs: When the Son of man (ſaith he) ſhal come, ſhal he find faith in the world? Matth. 18.8. and 24 11.12. And by the Apoſtle alſo, 2. Theſſ. 2. 1. Tim. 4. And John in the Revelation, in the time of the Antichriſt, Rev. 9 1.2.3.4. and 12.6. and 13 14.15.16.17 and 14 8. p. 306and 17.2. and 18.3. Confeſſed alſo by the learned of your own Church, as Bellarmin and the Rhemiſts, as they have been quoted before: and by your ſelf alſo, who confeſſed that the Church of Chriſt ſhould be redacted to a ſmal number, as it were in a wilderneſs, in the time of the Antichriſt. This now is our doctrine concerning the inviſibility of the Church, which is neither repugnant to the Word of God, nor yet to the examples which I brought in afterward againſt your Religion. For both theſe (M. Gilbert) are true, and neither of them repugning one another: that the particular Churches in the time of the Antichriſt, are not ſo openly known, and ſo outwardly glorious and flowriſhing, as they were before; but redacted to a ſmal number, more obſcure and more latent: partly through that univerſal defection, and partly through that extream perſecution of your Church and Head; and that there was ſome that opponed themſelves to the Pope and his Clergy, and that even when he was come to the hight. If you will make theſe repugnant which are not adverſa, but only diverſa ſecundum magis & minus; then I ſay ye are repugnant to all rules of reaſoning, and to the light of nature it ſelf.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

Of this I may juſtly make an argument againſt M. John, that the Pope is not the Antichriſt. The woman that fled to the wilderneſs, is the true Church: and to flie to the wilderneſs, is to be inviſible, as M. John ſaith. Now young Merchiſton hath, that this inviſibility indured from the year of God 316. till our days, the ſpace of 1260. years, which was by him all the time of the Antichriſt. But by M. John Welſch, there was many in that time that opponed themſelves to the Pope, and ſaid againſt him, and his Religion and Clergy, and therefore was known. Of the which the Popes did ſlay many, as he ſaith: Therefore it muſt follow, that either the Pope is not the Antichriſt, becauſe he did perſecute but viſible things, or elſe the Church was not inviſible all the time fore-ſaid.

p. 307Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

Let us ſee the force of this argument that ye make for your Pope, that he is not the Antichriſt. The woman, ye ſay, that fled to the wilderneſs, is the true Church. That I grant: and to flie into the wilderneſs, is to be inviſible by me. I anſwer: By me it is to be latent, and to lurk, to eſchew the rage of her perſecuters, and not to be openlie converſant, as that all the world may know her: and yet not to be ſo latent, but that ſome of them are known, both among themſelves, as alſo to their enemies. And this is our meaning (as I have ſaid before) when we affirm that the particular Churches ſometimes become inviſible. But you take it as though our meaning were, that the Church is ſo inviſible, that it is known to none; which is your invention, M. Gilbert, and not our doctrine: and therefore you fight without an adverſarie in this point. But to go forward to the reſt of your argument: you ſay, that by me there was ſundrie that oppugned the Pope, and his Clergie, and was put to death by them. This is true: and therefore the blood of the Saints is found in your Church. Now what will you gather of all this? Therefore, ſay you, the Pope is not the Antichriſt, becauſe he perſecutes but viſible things, or elſe the Church is not inviſible. I deny that either the one or the other will follow. And becauſe you made an argument againſt your Pope (I ſhould have ſaid with him) that he is not the Antichriſt, which is grounded upon your own invention, miſtaking our doctrine, and therefore hath no feet. I will make another for him, that he is the Antichriſt, the which you, nor all your Clergy will not be able to diſprove. He is that undoubted Antichriſt, which hath redacted the Church of Chriſt, as it were in a wilderneſs, to a ſmal handful: partly through the peſt of his damnable doctrine, partly through p. 308his extream perſecution, ſo that they were compelled to lurk and hide themſelves from the cruelty of his power. This you cannot deny, becauſe the Scripture affirms this of the Antichriſt. But I aſſume, that the Popes of Rome have done this theſe many hundred years, as I have proved before, and in the other part of my anſwer: therefore of neceſſity it muſt follow that the Popes of Rome are the Antichriſt that the Scripture fore told ſhould come. Anſwer this if you can.

And as for the time of this inviſibilitie, it hath relation to the beginning, and grouth, and hight of your Antichriſtian Kingdom: For as it grew, the Church was more and more obſcured: and when it was at the hight, the Church was in her eclipſe: and as it hath decayed now ſince, ſhe hath accordingly ſpred her ſelf abroad. If the Apoſtle be true, that Myſtery of Iniquity began to work in his days, 2. Theſſ. 2.7. 1. John 4 3. For firſt, the manifold hereſies which were ſown in the primitive Church, whereof the Popes of Rome have renewed a great many (as ſhal be proved hereafter) was the firſt ſtep to that Antichriſtian Kingdom. Next, the loving of preeminence in the Ministery over their brethren, as the Scripture teſtifies of Dictrephes, who loved preeminence, 3. of John 9. and ſpecially the aſpiring of the Biſhops of Rome, to a Domination and Lordſhip over their brethren, forbidden by Chriſt; which was manifeſtly kythed in Pope Victor, who did take upon him to excommunicat the Biſhops of Aſia, for a light diſſention of the celebration of Eaſter, anno 198. And in others, as Cornelius, Zoſimus, Bonifacius, and Celestin, Popes, who did receive to their Communion thoſe who were excommunicat in Africa, was the ſecond ſtep. Thirdly, if it be true that theſe impious and ſuperſtitious Decreets which your Church aſcribes to the Popes of Rome before Constantine, be theirs: as is not likely that p. 309ſuch ſuperſtitions did creep into the Church of Chriſt, it being under perſecution: then, I ſay, the Popes of Rome even before Sylveſter, by their ſuperſtitious Decreets, made a further entry to that Antichriſtian Kingdom. And becauſe the Roman Empire was the let that hindered Antichriſt to ſtep up to his throne, 2. Theſſ. 2.7. foreign, and the City of Rome behoved to be his ſeat, Rev. 18. therefore Conſtantin the Great leaving the City of Rome to Sylveſter the Biſhop of R me, made yet the way more eaſie: till at the laſt, they firſt got the primacy of honor; next, of authority and juriſdiction over their brethren: and then laſt of all, did ſubdue the necks of Kings and Emperors unto them. The which they did not attain unto at the firſt, but piece and piece, and that not without long and great reſiſtance, both of the Church (as I have proved before) condemning his Monarchy in all ages; and of the Emperors, as we ſhal ſee hereafter. And as they ever grew in their ſuperiority, ſo did the purity of the Church of Chriſt decay: and as a peſt infects not a Kingdom all at once, but piece and piece: ſo did your Antichriſtian hereſie: it infected not all at once, but piece and piece, till at the laſt it went over all. While as then Merchiſton makes the beginning of his reign to be in the 316 year of God, and the Church from thence to become inviſible: His meaning is, that then that let, which the Apoſtle ſpeaks of, was begun to be removed, that his ſeat and throne might be in Rome; and from thence, as they grew in hight, ſo was the Church ay more and more continually obſcured, till at the laſt the Lord did ſcatter that darkneſs by the light of his Goſpel, which came to paſs in our days.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

The Church that is ſet down to us in the Word of God, can no way be inviſible: for when the holy Writ ſpeaks of the Church of p. 310Chriſt, it ſpeaks of a viſible number of men and women, and no wiſe of Angels or ſpirits, as may be ſeen in theſe examples, Numb. 20.4.3. Kings 8.14 Matth. 16.18. and 18.17. Acts 15.3.4. and 18.22. and 22.28. 1. Tim. 3.15.

Maſter John Welſch his Reply.

I come now to your arguments. Firſt, you ſay, that the Church that is ſet down to us in the Word of God can no ways be inviſible; becauſe, ſay ye, when it ſpeaks of the Church, it ſpeaks of a viſible number of men and women, and no ways of Angels or ſpirits. I anſwer, This is moſt falſe: For the Scripture ſets down to us that Church which is the body of Christ, Eph. 1.22.23. and whereof he is the head and Savior, Eph. 5.23. and which is built upon the rock, Col. 1.18. which is called, the congregation of the firſt born, whoſe names are written in heaven, Heb. 12.23. and that Jeruſalem which is the mother of us all, Gal. 4.26. Matth. 16.28. And this is the Catholick Church which comprehends all the elect, as well triumphant as militant, which is inviſible, for the reſpects before ſaid, as I have proved. And ſuppoſe the elect that are here militant, may be ſeen, as they are men, and ofttimes alſo in reſpect of their outward profeſſion: yet it follows not but that they are inviſible, in ſo far as they are a part of the Catholick Church. And alſo that ſometimes through the extremity of perſecution, they may be latent and lurk, ſo that they are not openly viſible and known to all, as I have ſaid before. As for theſe places of Scripture, to wit, Num. 20 4. 3. Kings 8.14. Acts 15.3.4. and 20.28. and 18.22. and 1. Tim 3 15 they ſpeak all of particular Churches, which we grant unto you are viſible, ſuppoſe not ay alike, as hath been proved. As for the 16. of Matthew, it ſpeaks of the Church of the choſen; for they only are built upon this rock, and againſt whom the gates of hell prevail not: and p. 311they are inviſible, in reſpect before ſaid, as hath been proved As for the 18 of Matthew, it is quoted afterward: therefore I refer the anſwer of it unto that place.

Maſter Gilbert Brown.

The Scripture alſo in many places compares the Church to viſible things that cannot be unſeen: as, He hath placed his tabernacle in the Sun: A city cannot be hid ſet on a mountain. It is alſo compared to a light ſet on a candleſtick to lighten the whole houſe, and not to be put under a bed, or a buſhel; with many the like, which I have omitted for brevities cauſe, ſaving ſome here at the end. Moreover, our Savior commands us to complain to the Church if our brother offend us: and alſo we ought to joyn our ſelves to the true Church, or elſe we cannot have remiſſion of our ſins. But how can a man complain to it, if it cannot be ſeen? Or joyn himſelf to it, if it be inviſible? The Church of Chriſt may never want the true preaching of the Word, and right adminiſtration of the Sacraments: but theſe things are always viſible, becauſe by the Miniſters they are the ſigns and marks of the Church: therefore the true Church may be always known by them. To be ſhort, not only the Word of God affirms the Church to be alwayes viſible, as I have noted before; but alſo the ancient Fathers in all their works, as partly I have marked alſo. Pſal. 18.6. read S. Aug. on this, Mat. 5.15. Iſai. 69.9. Dan 2.35. Mich. 4.1.2. Read Hieron. on theſe places, Aug 1. tract. in Epiſt. Joan. item de bapt. lib. 4. cap. 1. Matth. 18.17. Cyprian de ſimpli. praelat. Jer. 1. Epiſt ad Damaſ. Aug. lib. 19. contra Fauſt. cap. 11. Origen. homil. 30. in Matth. Cyp. lib de unitat. Eccleſ. Chryſoſt. hom. 4. in cap. 6. Iſai. August. lib. 3. contra Epist. Parmeni. cap. 3. item tract. 1. in Epiſt. Joan. & tract. 2. item Epiſt. 166. ad Donatiſtas.

M. John Welſch his Reply.

As for the 18. Pſalm, it ſpeaks not of the viſibility of the Church there, but of the Lords wonderful and glorious works; and ſpecially, in diſponing ſuch a glorious place or tabernacle, or throne, to the Sun to ſhine in, the which p. 312demonſtrates the glory of the Lord. As for Augustine expoſition, it reſults of the corrupted old Tranſlation, which was not taken from the Hebrew fountain, but from the verſion of the Septuagints: therefore Pagninus, Vatabius, and Arias Montanus, a Papiſt, and Tremellius, expone it not ſo, but after the Hebrew. Secondly, he means not here of the Catholick Church, but of particular Churches, which were exceeding far enlarged in his days: but yet this hinders not but that they ſhould be obſcured in the time of the Antichriſt as it was fore-told, and your Church acknowledges. As for the 5. of Matthew, 15.16. there, not the Catholick Church, but the Paſtors of particular Churches, are compared to this light which is ſet up in the candleſtick, and to the city ſet up upon the hill top, which cannot be hid: that is, the eyes of all is on them; and therefore they ſhould be ſo much the more wake-rife and careful, becauſe their doings cannot be hid. As for Iſai. 2.3. and 60.20. and 61.9. and Dan. 2.35. and Mich. 4.12. they propheſie of the greatneſs and clearneſs of the Church of Chriſt in the time of the Meſſias, and of the propagation of the Goſpel throughout the world, and of the ſtability and perpetuity of Chriſts Kingdom. But yet it follows not but both the Catholick Church is inviſible, as I ſaid before, and that the viſible Churches may be obſcured and darkened, as it was fore-told, in the time of the Antichriſt. As for the 18. of Matthew, 17. Go tell the Church, &c. The Church is here taken for the Paſtors and Governors of particular Churches, which we grant are viſible; but yet it follows not but that both they and the profeſſors may be obſcured and darkened, either through hereſie, or through extream perſecution, or through both together, as it was fore-told in the time of the Antichriſt, and hath been fulfilled by your Church. As for the true Church, unto whom we ſhould joyn our ſelves. I anſwer: We can have no p. 313ſalvation unleſs we joyn our ſelves firſt to the Catholick Church, that is, unto Jeſus and his members by a ſpiritual communion, without the which there is no ſalvation. Next, unto ſome particular viſible Church, by the outward communion of the Word and Sacraments &c, if we know it, and poſſibly can joyn our ſelves unto it: For if either we know it, or may not, as theſe ſeven thouſand that bowed not their knee to Baal: then I ſay, ſalvation is not perilled. As for your laſt reaſon, The true Church may never want the true preaching of the Word, and right adminiſtration of the Sacraments. I anſwer: Firſt, there is not the like neceſſity of the Sacraments, as there is of the Word. Next, ſuppoſe they have it and thereby are known among themſelves, and ſome of them alſo to their adverſaries; yet it follows not that they are ſo openly viſible, that they are patent and known to all. As for example: There is no queſtion but theſe ſeven thouſand that did not bow their knee to Baal, 1. Kings 19.18. and theſe hundred Prophets who was hid in the caves, 1. Kings 18.13. and the Apostles when all were ſcattered through that perſecution, as Luke teſtifies, Acts 8.1. had the exerciſe of the Word among them. And it is not likely that the Apoſtles wanted ſome to teach, ſuppoſe they were not known to all, no not to their perſecuters, otherwiſe they would have been perſecuted. And ſuch like, we doubt not, but in the time of Queen Maries perſecution in England, and in other parts, under that Antichriſtian tyranny, but the Lord had his own, both Paſtor and people, among whom the truth was preached, ſuppoſe neither we nor their adverſaries knew them all: For it is oft-times for the ſafety of the Church to lurk, and to be hid, that ſhe may eſcape the fury and rage of her enemies. As for Augustin, Cyprian, Origen, Chryſoſtome and Jerome, which ye quote here, they ſpeak either of the perpetuity and eternity of the Catholick p. 314Church, or elſe of the largeneſs and clearneſs of the particular Churches which were in thoſe days, which is neither againſt the inviſibility of the Catholick Church, nor yet againſt the obſcure eſtat and ſmal handful of the Church of Chriſt, whereunto ſhe ſhould be brought in the days of the Antichriſt, as was fore-told by the Scripture, and fulfilled in your Papiſtical Kingdom. For we grant that in their dayes the Churches of Chriſt was frequent and glorious, but yet they did not ay remain in that eſtat. For the Churches of the Eaſt are almoſt overthrown by the Mahomet, and the Churches of the Weſt by the Antichriſt. So that partly by the one, and partly by the other, the Church of Chriſt hath been redacted to a ſmal handful, as hath been ſaid.