Popery Anatomized, Section 20
SECTION XX. Concerning the difference betwixt Popery, and the Reformed Religion.
Maſter John Welſch.
ANd our Religion which we profeſs, and all the particular heads of it, was inſtituted by Jeſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles, which I offer me alſo to prove either by word or writ, againſt whoſoever will plead the contrary. The which if I fail in, I will be content to loſe my life therefore, by his grace.
Master Gilbert Brown.
There is much promiſed here, but nothing done, and it is a thing impoſſible to him to do. For why the difference chiefly that the Proteſtants differ from us, is in denying, abhorring, or deteſting, as may be ſeen in their Confeſſion of Faith, which they compel all men to ſwear and ſubſcribe. As we deteſt and refuſe the uſurped authority of that Roman Antichriſt, upon the Scriptures of God, upon the Church, the civil Magiſtrat, &c. except ſuch things were expreſly contained in the Word of God.
M. John Welſch his Reply.
As for my promiſe and performance, I anſwere… … that before: and whither that be a thing unpoſſible … or not, let this my anſwer be a tryal thereof. You are bold enough indeed in affirming it to be impoſſible: but what have ye for you? You ſay, becauſe the difference chiefly that we differ from you, is in denying and abhorring. What a raiſon is this? Can we not prove our Religion out of the Scripture, becauſe we deny yours which is contrary to the ſame? Is it impoſſible to prove the truth, becauſe falſhood is denyed and abhorred? What new Logick or Divinity is this? I would never have believed that ye had been ſuch an unskilful reaſoner, if your ſelf had not bewrayed the ſame. And certainly your Church is not beholden to you: For if your reaſon hold forth, it will follow that it is impoſſible to you, or any man elſe, to prove the heads of your Religion by the Scripture: For in your Confeſſion of Faith, and form of abjuration ſet down by the Monks of Burdeaux, anno 1585. there they deny and abhor the Proteſtants and their doctrine, and compel all men who deſire the fellowſhip of the Roman Church, and their abſolution, to abjure, renounce, and ſubſcribe the ſame. But I ſuppoſe your Church will not allow this manner of reaſoning of yours. And whereas you ſay, that the chief difference wherein we differ from you, is in denying and abhorring, &c. of your Religion. I ask you, Doth not our Religion differ as far from yours, as yours doth from us? This you cannot deny. For are not two contraries equally different one from another? Doth not light differ as far from darkneſs, white from black, Chriſt from Antichriſt, as darkneſs from light, black from white, and Antichriſt from Chriſt? And are not yours and our Religions contrary one to another? But your ſelf will not deny, and Bellarmin confeſſeth, in his Preface before the Controverſies, and in his Preface de … Pontifice, that you differ from us in the main and …tantial points of Religion; therefore of neceſſity we muſt alſo differ from you in the main & ſubſtantial points of our Religion. And ſo the chief difference wherein we differ from you, is not in denying and abhorring, but in the main and fundamental grounds of our Religion. Otherwiſe it ſhal follow that the chief difference that ye differ from us, is in denying and abhorring of our Religion, which I think your Church will not digeſt. Whereas you ſay, that this may be ſeen by our Confeſſion of Faith: Our Confeſſion hath not only the deteſting and denying of your abominable errors in general and particular; but alſo the confeſſion of our Faith in general, referring the particular heads thereof to that confeſſion which is ratified and eſtabliſhed by Act of Parliament. And ſo here, M. Gilberts untruth and calumny of our Confeſsion may be ſeen. As for this form of exacting of an oath and ſubſcription to Religion, if you find fault with it, you not only gain-ſay the Scriptures of God, impaires Princes lawful authority, and the Church of their Juriſdiction and lawful power; the example of Moſes, Deut. 29.10 and of Joſua 24.25. Jehoiada the High-Prieſt, 2. Kings 11.17. Joſia, 2. of the Kings 23.3. Aſa, 2. Chron. 15.12. And of the people returning from the captivity of Babel with Nehemias, chap. 10. But alſo blots your own Church; who (as may be ſeen in that Confeſsion of Faith and form of abjuration ſet out by the Monks of Burdeaux, whereof we ſpake before) doth the ſame. As for this exception which ye put in here, I anſwered to it before.
Maſter Gilbert Brown.
For if this be a true ground of theirs, that nothing ought to be done or believed, but ſuch things as are expreſly contained in the Word of God: but their general Confeſſion, or their negative faith, is not expreſly contained in the Word of God; therefore it ought not to be done, nor believed.
M. John Welſch his Reply.
As for this ground which ye alledge to be ours, it appeareth certainly, M. Gilbert, that as ye ſaid of me, either ye know not our grounds, or elſe ye wilfully invert them for your own advantage. For our ground is, that nothing ought to be done or believed in Religion, but that which may be warranted by the teſtimony of the Scripture, either in words and ſenſe together, or elſe by a neceſſary collection out of the ſame. The which with Nazianzene, we ſay, Are of the ſame truth and authority with the first. And according to this ſenſe, we ſay, That all the heads of our Religion, as well negative as affirmative, are expreſly contained in the Scripture, and ſo ought both to be believed and practiſed. Theſe are but ſilly ſhifts, M. Gilbert, which ye bring to diſcredit the truth of our Religion. You knew full well the blindneſs and ſimpleneſs of the people in this Countrey; and therefore you regarded not how ſilly and ſimple your reaſons were.
Maſter Gilbert Brown.
That their faith is contained in the Word of God, ſo far as it differs from ours, he will never be able to prove, neither by word nor writ. And if he will cauſe our Kings Majeſty to ſuſpend his acts againſt us, that we may be as free to ſpeak our mind as he, he ſhal have a proof hereof. If not, let him prove the ſame by writ, and he ſhal have an anſwer by Gods grace. As for his life, we deſire not the ſame, but rather his converſion to the truth.
M. John Welſch his Reply.
As for our ability to prove the truth of our doctrine, I anſwered it before: Judge thou, Chriſtian Reader, of the ſame, by this my anſwer. As for the ſuſpending of his Majeſties acts againſt you, that is not in our hands: and for all the good ye could do, you have but too much liberty. And if you ſpeak no better for your Religion then you have done elſe in this your anſwer, your Church will be but little beholden to you for it. And certainly, if you will bind and oblige your ſelf to face your own cauſe, and defend your Religion by word, I hope that licence of a ſafe paſſage and conduct would be granted to you by his Majeſty, to let you ſpeak for your ſelf, what ye have for you for the defence of it, for that ſpace, without any danger to your perſon, and that ſurer, and with greater ſafety then John Hus had, who notwithſtanding of his ſafe-conduct, yet was burnt. And whereas you promiſe an anſwer, do what you can, M. Gilbert, for now it is time to plead for your Baal. And let your anſwer be more firm then this, or elſe ye will loſe more then ye will win by it. That you deſire not my life, I am beholden to you (if you ſpeak truth) conſidering the bloody generation of your Roman Church, who theſe many years by paſt, hath ſpilt the blood of the Saints of God, in ſuch abundance, that if any can tell the ſtarrs of heaven, he may number them whom your Church hath ſlain for the teſtimony of the Word of God. And as for that which ye call converſion, it is averſion from the truth, and the loſing of ſalvation: the which I hope ſhal be dearer to me then a thouſand lives, ſuppoſe they were all included in one.
Maſter John Welſch.
Secondly, I offer me to prove that there be very few points of controverſie betwixt the Roman Church and us, wherein we diſſent, but I ſhal get teſtimonies of ſundry Fathers of the firſt ſix hundred years againſt them, and proving the heads of Religion which we profeſs. Let any man therefore ſet me down any weighty point of controverſie, one, or mo, and he ſhal have the proof of this.