Popery Anatomized, Section 25
SECTION XXV. That the Reformed Churches have not renewed old condemned Hereſies.
Master Gilbert Brown.
BUt that M. John ſhal not think that we ſlander him and his …i…h old condemned hereſies, let him read S. Auguſtin Epiphanius, and others noted here, as of theſe, and many the like.
1. Novatus forſook the Pope of Rome, Cornelius, and cauſed others do the like; as Euſebius hiſt. lib. 6. cap. 33. and Nicephorus report, lib. 6. cap. 30.
2. Aërus the heretick denyed that offering or prayers ſhould be done for the dead, and that faſting ſhould be free, as S. Auguſtine and Epiphane declare, haereſ. 75.
3. Eunomius and Aërius held, that only faith juſtifieth, as Auguſtin. haereſ. 55. & lib. de fide & operibus, and Epiphanius haereſ. 76. write.
Maſter John Welſch his Reply.
Now are we, by Gods grace, come unto your laſt calumnie, in affirming that we renew old condemned hereſies. This is indeed, M. Gilbert, a heavie challenge, if it were true: but it is but like the reſt of your calumnies; yea, it hath leſs appearance of truth, then any thing which ye have ſpoken againſt us. A liar, M. Gilbert, ſhal not enter in that heavenly city, but his portion ſhal be in that lake that burne with fire and brimſtone, Rev. 19.20 & 22.15. And he that ſlandereth his neighbor (much more then he who ſlandereth the truth of God) ſhal not reſt in the Lords holy mountain, Pſal. 15 3. But to come to the firſt, Novatus intruded himſelf in another mans charge, and cauſed ſet up himſelf againſt Cornelius the lawful Paſtor of the Church in Rome then, and that craftily, and withdrew many of his flock from him, which is as contrary to our doctrine, as black to white. For we teach that every Paſtor ſhould have his own particular flock, as Cornelius had then in Rome; and no man ſhould intrude himſelf in another mans charge, as he did. So this is a calumny, M. Gilbert. But your Popes are like Novatus, who not only have diſturbed all the Chriſtian Congregations in Europe almoſt, by ſetting up and thruſting down ſuch Paſtors as they would, but alſo all the Kingdoms in Europe. As for this doctrine of Aerius: I anſwer you, as ye did me: I contend not whether he taught this doctrine or not, for the Scriptures have taught the ſame. But our contention is; whether they be hereſie or not, which you have not proved, nor ever will be able to prove by the Scripture. It is true Epiphanius, and Auguſtin following him, reckon him among hereticks: but Theodoretus in his Book de fabulis Judaeorum, and the Eccleſiaſtical Hiſtory, reckon him not among hereticks: and he was not condemned for an heretick in any Council: that therefore which he taught according to the Scripture, we imbrace. But as for the errors of the Aërians, which are errors indeed, and which are aſcribed unto them, as the damning of marriage, urging of continency, requiring them whom they receive to their fellowſhip, to forſake their own proper things. Theſe hereſies, I ſay, your Church hath renewed, who damns marriage, and urges continency in your Clergy, and receives none to your religious Orders, but ſuch as refuſe their own proper things As to the third, the Aërian and Eunomian hereſies, they ſecluded holineſs of life from that faith of theirs, and taught ſuch a faith that might ſtand with whatſoever ſins, and with perſeverance in them. Will you ſtand to this, M. Gilbert, before the Lord, that we teach ſuch doctrine? Is not this our doctrine, that only living faith which works by love, and brings forth good fruits, doth juſtifie? But you are like to them that know no other juſtifying faith, but ſuch a faith, as both the reprobats and the Devils may have. So this is your third calumnie.
M. Gilbert Brown.
4. Simon Magus, Marcion and Manichaeus, denyed that man had free-will, as Augustin. haereſ 46. Jerome, and Epiphanius haereſ 42. make mention.
5. Jovinianus affirmed that Prieſts marriage was lawful after the lawful vow of chaſtity. He moved ſundry Nuns to marry in the city of Rome. He made faſting and abſtinence from meat ſuperfluous, as Auguſtin writes of him, haereſ. 82. item lib. 1. cap. 7 de peccat. merit. & remiſſ.
6. Vigilantius denyed the prayer to Saints, as S. Jerome contra Vigilantium, writes. He deſpiſed the burning of lights and candles in the Churches in the day time, and the relicks of Martyrs.
Julian the Apoſtat was of the ſame opinion, as Cyrillus contra Julian. declares. The ſame Julian deſpiſed the image of Chriſt and his Saints, as the fore-ſaid Cyrillus lib. 9. contra Julian. makes mention.
Maſter John Welſch his Reply.
As to this fourth hereſie, they took away all the liberty and freedom of the will in man: but this is not our doctrine. For we affirm that man hath a liberty and freedom in his will, in natural, moral and ſinful actions: but not in theſe things which pleaſeth God, before he be renewed. This is your fourth calumnie.
As for the fifth, Jovinian taught, as Auguſtin haereſ. 82. and Jerome in his 8. Epist. in his defence of his Books against Jovinian, ſet it down: and Bellarmin de Eccleſia militant. lib. 4. cap. 9 reports, that the married eſtat was equal with virginity. Unto the which we anſwer: That true and undefiled virginity we prefer always, as the more noble and excellent gift in them to whom it is given: but we doubt not to ſay, but that marriage is better in them that cannot contain. And generally we dare prefer the honeſt marriage of Chriſtians, before the proud and fained virginity of many Monaſtical votaries, as Auguſtin in Pſal. 99. ſaith, Lowly and humble marriage, is better then proud and hauty virginity. As to the ſecond point, he affirmed indeed that the choiſe of meats and faſting was no merit, and this is no hereſie. But if this be hereſie, then the doctrine of the Scripture is hereſie: For it teacheth us, That life everlaſting is the free gift of God, Rom. 6 23. as hath been proved before. This is your fifth calumny.
As for the ſixth of Vigilantius hereſies, if the denying of prayer to be made to Saints be an hereſie, then it is an old hereſie: for it is the Lords, who is the ancient of days, for this is his doctrine: Call upon me in the day of thy trouble, and I will deliver thee Pſal. 50.15 Iſa. 42.8. And let Auguſtin alſo go for an heretick who ſaith, That the Saints are not called upon. Aug. de civitate Dei, lib. 22. cap. 20. As for the deſpiſing of the burning of lights and candles in the Churches in the day time, I know not to what uſe it ſerves, except to be a ſign that ye are blinded of the Lord, who in the midſt of the day light your candles: Did Jeſus Chriſt or his Apoſtles ſo? And this was the cuſtom of Pagans, which you have taken from them, Irenaeus lib. 6 cap. 2. As for the deſpiſing of the relicks of Martyrs: if he deſpiſed theſe, then he erred: for we both teach and practiſe, that the bodies of the Saints ſhould be honorably buried, and we do not deſpiſe them. But if he taught that they ſhould not be worſhipped, then I ſay he is not an heretick in this, but you are hereticks and idolaters, who expreſs contrary the Commandment of God, do worſhip the creature: Matth 4.10. Deut. 6 13. And Vigilantius was no heretick, nor his opinions condemned as hereſies, only there was a hot contention between him and Jerome. And as for Julian, he calumniated the Chriſtians that they adored dead men for Gods, and the tree of the croſs. Unto whom Cyrillus anſwered, That they adored not the ſign of the croſs, but God only. So this was but Julians calumny againſt them. But if he had lived in your dayes, he might juſtly have objected it unto you.
Maſter Gilbert Brown.
7. Valentinus the heretick, denyed the very body of Chriſt to be in the Sacrament, as Irenaeus ſaith, lib 4 cap. 34.
8. Simon Magus, Marcion, and the Manichees, held, that God compelled man both to do evil and good, as S. Auguſtin haereſ. 46. Vincentius Lirinenſis, S. Clement of Rome, in recognit. and Epiphanius haereſ. 42. have in their works, which is the doct…ine of the moſt learned of the Proteſtants, as Melancthon, Calvin, Beza in lib. de praedeſt. contra Calv. ſycophant. and others.
9. The Novatians denyed pennance, as S. Augustin haereſ. 38. affirms.
10. The Manichees denyed the neceſſity of Baptiſm, as the ſame S. Auguſtin haereſ. 46. reports.
11. Aërius, Eustathius, and the Manichees, condemned faſting days ordained by the Church, as Leo, Epiſt. 93 cap 4. Epiphanius, haereſ. 75. the Council of Gangr. in praefat. as S. Augustin lib. 10. cap. 3. cont. Fauſt. Manich. records.
12. The Manichees uſed to faſt on the Sunday only, as S. Auguſtin, haereſ. and S. Leo, ſer. 4. de qua. witneſs. Read for this alſo Concil. Gang. cap. 13. & de conſecrat. diſt. 3. ne quis. Ignatius ad Philip. de conſ…crat. diſtinct. 3. jejunium.
13. The Pepuſians and Collyridians, denyed holy Orders, and made it no Sacrament, as S. Auguſtin haereſ. 4.24. and Epiphanius haereſ 44.79. write.
14. The Pelagians denyed that confeſſion ſhould be made to a Prieſt, as our Chronicle writer teſtifies, Hect. Boet. lib. 9 cap. 19. They deny alſo that Baptiſm was needful to children or infants, as S. Auguſtin reports, haereſ. 88.
15. The Donatists den…ed the order of Monks, and other religious perſons as S. Auguſtin in Pſal. 132. and S Chryſostome write, Tom. 5. against the diſpraiſer of the monastical life.
Maſter John Welſch his Reply.
Whether Valentinus taught ſo or not, I contend not: but the queſtion is of this doctrine of the real preſence, whether it be contrary to Gods Word, or not; the which I have proved ſufficiently before in the fourth point of doctrine: and ſo the denying of it, is no hereſie. But yet it appears not by this teſtimony of Irenaeus, which ye cite here, that he taught ſuch doctrine.
As for the 8. hereſie, it is a calumny to aſcribe it to us: for Melancthon, Calvin and Beza, have no ſuch doctrine. You are not aſhamed, M. Gilbert, of impudent lying.
As for the 9. of Novatus hereſie, that is a calumny to aſcribe it to us. For Novatus denyed that there was any place of repentance to theſe, who after they were baptized, fell from the faith by any infirmity, or violence of perſecution, as Epiphanius teſtifies of him, that he ſaid, No man who hath fallen after Baptiſm, can any more obtain mercy. But our doctrine is contrare to this: for we teach that there is place to repentance for any ſin, except the ſin againſt the holy Ghoſt, which is ever puniſhed with final impenitency.
As for the 10. of the Manichees hereſie, their doctrine was, as Auguſtin ſaith there, That Baptiſm ſerved nothing for ſalvation to any: and that none who followed their ſect, ſhould be baptized: and therefore they brought in a contempt of Baptiſm, which is contrary to our doctrine. For we teach, that Chriſtians and their children is to be baptized: and that the contempt of it is damnable, ſuppoſe not the want of it.
As for the 11. and 12 hereſies, we contemn not faſtings that are appointed by the Church for lawful cauſes: but we deny that they ſhould be tyed to certain and prefixed dayes, as your Church doth: and we think it no hereſie to faſt on the Lords day, more then other dayes: both to ſtir up our repentance, and to make us more meet to holy and ſpiritual exerciſes, becauſe it is not contrary to the Word of God. As for Leo his Epiſtle, it is wrong quoted, for it ſhould be Epiſt. 91. and their faſting on the Lords day, is not like ours: for they faſted on the Lords day, becauſe they believed not that Chriſt was a true man, as Leo in that ſame place teſtifies which you will not ſay your ſelf that we do; for we acknowledge him to be a true man.
As for the 13. hereſie of the Pepuſians and Collyridians, their doctrine was that women might be Biſhops and Elders, and might uſe theſe publick functions, as theſe places which ye have quoted, teſtifie: which is not our doctrine, but rather yours, who permit women to baptize in caſe of neceſſity. That they denyed Orders to be a Sacrament, there is no ſuch thing to be found in theſe places which ye quote here.
As for the 14. hereſie of the Pelagians, if they denyed that theſe who were accuſed of any ſcandalous offence, and guilty thereof, ſhould make their confeſſion of it to God, his Miniſters, and the Congregation, for to take away the offence of it, then they erred, and our doctrine and practiſe condemn this: but if they denyed the abſolut neceſſity of your auricular confeſſion, then is it no error; becauſe there is no ſuch thing commanded in the whole Scriptures of God. Now as for the teſtimony of Boëtius, I have not ſeen it. As for their ſecond hereſie concerning Baptiſm, they taught, as Augustin reports in that place. That Baptiſm was not needful to children, becauſe they were born without original ſin, as they taught: which is an hereſie indeed: but this is a calumny to aſcribe it to us; for we teach that children are born in original ſin, and ſo ſhould be baptized. And ſurely this hereſie rather agrees to you, who teach, that Mary was not born in original ſin, and therefore ſhe needed not to be baptized.
As for the laſt of the Donatiſts, denying the order of Monks. I anſwer: Firſt, your Papiſtical and idolatrous Monks, are far different from theſe which Auguſtin and Chryſoſtome defended, and theſe of the primitive Church. Bellarmin lib. 1. cap. 2. de indulgentijs. For firſt, they were bound to no preſcript form of dyet, apparel, or any thing elſe, by ſolemn vowes of wilful poverty, and perpetual continency, as yours are. Next, the former Monks remained in the order of privat men and laicks, and had nothing to do with Eccleſiaſtical charges, which was afterward broken by Pope Boniface the fourth, anno 606. But yours are not ſo: they have Eccleſiaſtical charges, and are more then privat men. And laſt of all, ſuppoſe their kind of life was mixed with ſome ſuperſtition; for the envious man ſoon ſowed the popple among the good ſeed, and the myſtery of iniquity began ſoon to work: yet their Religion was not defiled with Idolatry, worſhipping of Images, prayers to Saints, opinion of merit, the ſacrifice of the Maſs, and other abominations, wherewith your Papiſtical Monks are defiled. Next, I ſay, theſe Monks and religious Orders of yours, have not their foundation within the four corners of the Scripture of God.
Maſter Gilbert Brown.
Theſe and many the like new renewed hereſies by the Miniſters, was old condemned hereſies in the primitive Church of the former hereticks, as teſtifie the ancient Fathers: and therefore this is a true argument. What ever was hereſie in old times, is hereſie yet, and the defenders thereof hereticks, as they were of old. But theſe former heads that I have ſet down, with many the like, was hereſies in old times, and the defenders thereof hereticks, as teſtifie the ancient Fathers. Therefore they are hereſies yet, and the defenders thereof hereticks.
Maſter John Welſch his Reply.
Now here was all the cauſe (Chriſtian Reader) that made M. Gilbert ſo oft to cry out of us, that we renewed old condemned hereſies, whereof ſome are ſuch as we our ſelves condemn; and ſome are ſuch which do better agree unto themſelves then unto us. And ſome hereſies he forceth upon us, which we never taught nor maintained: and ſome are ſuch, which are not hereſies indeed, but agreeable to the Scriptures of God. So that if we err in theſe, ſuffer us to err with Jeſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles Now to anſwer to your argument which ye bring: What ever was hereſie in old times, is hereſie yet, and the defenders thereof hereticks. I anſwer: If ye define hereſie to be an error obſtinatly maintained againſt the Scriptures of God, I grant your propoſition. But if ye define hereſies in general, to be whatſoever any one Father or Doctor, or ſome more, have rebuked as an hereſie, then I deny it; for ſundrie of the Fathers have maintained errors themſelves againſt the Scripture, and have accuſed ſome doctrine to be hereſies, which have been agreeable to the truth of God, which you will not deny, I hope. For if you would, I could prove it both of the Fathers. Councils, and your own Popes. Now to your aſſumption: But theſe former heads (ſay ye) which ye have ſet down, with many the like, was hereſies in old times, and the defenders thereof hereticks, as teſtifie the ancient Fathers. I anſwer: That ſome of theſe are hereſies indeed, and we abhor and condemn them more then ye; and ſome of theſe as falſly laid to our charge; and ſome of theſe are not hereſies indeed, but agreeable to the Scripture. And therefore your concluſion falls not upon us, who have renewed no old condemned hereſies, and therefore is not hereticks. And where you ſay, many other like. I anſwer: It is true they are like, for they are both calumnies, and horrible untruths, and lies, as theſe have been; whereof one day ye ſhal make anſwer to the great God that judgeth the quick and the dead. But the pit which you digged for others, you have fallen in it your ſelf. For certainly in this you do as thieves do, who the better to eſchew the crime of theft which is juſtly laid to their charge, and that they may the more eaſily eſcape in a fray, do cry out and ſhout out upon others, Common thieves, common thieves. Even ſo do you: for theſe crimes whereof ye are guilty your ſelves, you falſly charge us with.