Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 4 · Chapter 7
CHAP. VII.
Ordination, not Election of the people, gives the essentials to Officers. 2. The method and order of Ordination and Election. 3. The place 1 Tim. 4. 14. touching the laying on of hands of the Presbytery, is opened. 4. The necessity of laying on of hands. 5. Designation to a certain flock is not essential to a Pastor.
MR. H. Ordination, according to the minde of Mr. R. and Mr. H. Survey, par. 2. c. 2. con. 2. p. 52, 53. Mr. R. his order of ordination before election hinders not ordination to give the essentials to the call of officers.his method, as preceding the Election of the people, doth not give the essentials to the outward call of a Minister.
Ans. Ordo causandi non tollit ipsam c…salitatem. If Plate say the soul was created before the body, this will not prove but body and soul are essential causes of man. So because Ordination administred Mr. R. his way and method gives not the essentials to a Minister; this by no Logick can cashier Ordination from an essential cause thereof.
Mr. H. Luke saith, Acts 6. first they chose Steven, ver. 5. then the Apostles laid on hands, ver. 6. if not any but those who are elected by the people should be ordained, and all such who were so chosen could not be refused, then to ordain before choice, is neither to make application of the Rule, or a communicating of the Right in an orderly manner. But the first is plain, the Apostles would not take that soveraignty in ordaining Elders, therefore they would not allow their Scholars to arrogate to call so, Acts 14. 23. When they had created them Elders in every Church, (the Geneva, When they had ordained Elders by election of the people) and prayed, and fasted, they commended them to God, &c. then the officers had a full call, and a full night to the execution of their office before laying on of hands, which is not necessary; and must not the setting in order things amiss be done by Titus, i. e. the Officers and the Church also? Tit. 1. 5.
Ans. 1. Luke saith not they were elect called officers with See D. Bilson, Perpet. Gover. c. 7.a full call and full right, before the Apostles laid on hands: for Mr. R. saith they were chosen, that is, nominated as godly men before the Apostles laid on hands; as David and Saul were both chosen, set apart by God before unction and choice of Formal and complete election is later than …dination.the people, but they were not formally chosen Kings, having full royalty, while as yet the people knew them not from other men: but the seven men were not formally and completely chosen as officers, before ordination, and so had neither right, nor official full right to be their Deacons, while the Apostles ordained them: for this Rite (say Beza, Bullinger, Calvin, Gualther, Diodati, English Divines) used in Sacrifices, was used in creating Cypr. l. r. Ep. 4. alias 68. Leo Ep. 87. c. 1. Calvin. Acts 6. Praescribunt autem Apostoli quales deligi opo…reat—at que hoc inter tyrannidem & confusam licentiam est medium, ut nihil quidem agatur nisi ex consensu & approbatione plebis. Gualth. in ioc. Totius Ecclesiae consensu & authoritate Diaconi electi sunt.of officers, foreign, ver. 3. to choose is a far lower word, as Cyprian saith, it noteth Pl…bis approbationem: Leo, con sensum plebis: Calvin, the approbation of the people. What then is the Apostles and officers part? Authority official there must be, laying on of hands (saith Mr. H.) was not of necessity required: yea, but its safer to believe the holy Ghost, it was done; then it was no unnecessary complement, the cup was given to the people by the Apostles, 1 Cor. 11. True, (say Papists as Mr. H.) it was not of necessity required. 2. (Though there be a wide difference in the matter) if none should be ordained but those onelyonly that are first chosen, (as formally and completely as their fixed …) then election goes before ordination. Mr. R. denies the connexion, and desires Mr. H. to prove it: yea, the contrary follow…; Ergo, the people cannot appropriate the man to be their fixed officer, nor consent he be theirs only (and this to me is only formal election) until he first be ordained an officer. The sick man cannot choose A. B. to be his Physician, until he first be a Physician, nor can a Scholar choose C. D. to be his Teacher of Philosophy, until C. D. he first a Philosopher.
3. The Assumption is false: But all such who are so chosen The people cannot choose A. B. to be their fixed pastor, until A. B. be first a pastor.could not be refused; then must the Elders be necessitated to lay hands on Nicolaus, though they know him to be the head of that unclean Sect, of which Epiph…nius, Ir…s, D…roth…s, T…rtullian judge him to be leader: Why? the people have chosen him, then the Elders must lay on hands suddenly on an heretical Teacher, a Wolf: Why? they cannot refuse him (saith Mr. H.) for, The people hath chosen him. What tyranny of conscience is here?
4. This calling of the Deacons, and consequently of all other officers, if we suppose that the office was instituted (as now it was) by Mr. H. his way, might well have been without either presence or acting of either Apostles or officers (for saith Mr. H. there was no necessity of laying on of hands) by the onelyonly multitude, and I require one Scripture for the calling of one officer without the concurrent acting of Apostles and officers, by the sole people, and can shew warrants for the presence and acting of Apostles and officers in the calling of officers, especially those Acts 1. 15, 23. & 6. 6. & 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5, 6, 7, &c. 1 Tim. 4. 14. & 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 2. 1, 2, 3, 10. Revel. 2. 2. ver. 20. Acts 20. 28, 29, 30. & 13. 1, 2, 3, 4.
5. Be it as the Geneva reading saith (as it is not) yet as Mr. M. Lazar. Seaman of Ordination, arg. 1. Diatribe, p. 14. Stephan. in Thesauro. Mr. Leigh in Crit. Sacr. in N. T. Bals. & Zonar. Can. 1. Apost. See Calvin Instit. l. 4. c. 3. sec. 15. Beza An. in Act. 14. 23. Ames. Bellarm. Enerv. tom. 2. l. 3. p. 98, 99. Non negamus Paulum & Barnabam suffcagia sua tulisse, sed solos illos negamus tulisse.Seaman well observes, and Calvin saith it also with Beza, the officers had their official votes, and are said foreign, as Stephanus, Mr. Leigh, Theodor. Balsamo, Zonaras and Bellarmine grants it; and it proves, that the onelyonly people created not officers, Ergo, by neither this place, nor by any other Scripture, could they give them full right to their office. See Amesius and Calvin. Hence if the officers by these places have suffrages and votes in ordaining of officers, as why should the holy Ghost bid prophets separate Paul and Barnabas for such a ministry, and command Timothy to lay hands suddenly on no man, 1 Tim. 5. 22. but on faithful men, that are able to teach others, 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5, 7, 8. if officers have no official work in creating officers, but only to choose them, which any brother or woman may do? then it is not needless that officers concur to create officers; and if it be not required of necessity that they concur, it must be idle work both here and in the cited places, that they concur, but because they did concur. I have as good reason, that the peoples concurring in choosing was needless, though they did choose, as Mr. H. hath cause to say, the officers concurrence is needless in ordaining, though in truth the Word of God require both as necessary.
Lastly, For the setting in order things, since these must be things of jurisdiction also, we say juridical acts by no Scripture are ascribed to the whole Church, except by the Church be understood the Church of Rulers, the rest only consenting: which is our mind.
Mr. H. Arg. 2. That place 1 Tim. 4. 14. favours not Mr. R. for ordination by officers, foreign, 1. Notes gracious dispensations accompanying salvation, Heb. 6. 9. or freely given gifts, 1 Cor. 12. 9, 28. 1 Cor. 7. 7.
2. It notes offices, Rom. 12. 6.
3. The grace of free justification, Rom 5. 15. Now its rather meant of grace out habilities which Timothy received by way of prophesie, by which he was fitted to that extraordinary work of an evangelist: the office is not first attended, but the gifts with an eye to the office.
1. Its harsh; forget not the office that is in you: a man is more fitly said to be in the office, an office is adjunctum adhaerens, not qualitas inhaerens.
2. The parallel place is 2 Tim. 1. 6. stir up the gift which is given thee by the laying on of my hands: a man is not said to stir up his office.
Ans. There is nothing here to weaken Mr. R. for 1. it The place 1 Tim. 4. 14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, &c. is opened, and M. H. his mistakes thereof removed. See Bilson Perpet. Governm. c 10. pag. 128, 129.was spare time to leave out more necessary significations of foreign, the gift, and to seem to put upon some a dream of giving the grace of justification in the blood of Christ, by prophesie, by laying on of the hands of the Presbytery.
2, foreign, by, is not prefixed to the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery: but foreign is prefixed to the laying on of hands: neglect not the gift given thee by prophecy, then he addeth foreign, with (not foreign, by) the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery. So that with Mr. H. his leave, Timothy received no gracious hability by the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery, as far as this Text speaks, so that the prophesie was extraordinary, 1 Tim. 1. 18. and the gift might be so also, and the laying on of the …ands of Paul, 2 Tim. 1. 6. was of another nature, and there he useth foreign, and this was known to be extraordinary, for the giving of the Holy Ghost, Act. 8. 17. which Magus affected, v. 19. It is true foreign is put for foreign, but rarely, Act. 14. 17. foreign, Act. 13. 17, So the laying on of Stephanus in Concor. in voce foreign. Beza, An. Act. 13. 17. foreign pro foreign. Act. 13. 1, 2.the hands, may be ordinary, and the gift given by prophesie, as Calvin, Beza, Paren…, Piscator, D…i, Cruciger, the gift declared to be given thee by prophetical revelation, 1 Tim. 1. 18. as Paul and Barnabas were sent to the Gentiles by the command of the Spirit. So Paul exhorts Timothy neither to neglect the one nor the other, so neglect not, but (…s D…) exercise carefully thy calling of an Evangelist, revive and strengthen the gifts that thou hast received, especially since thou hast received imposition of hands from the Colledge of Elders.
2. It is harsh (saith Mr. H.) Forget not the office in thee. Didoclavius told him thus, but what then? A man is said in our Didoclavius, Da. Calderwood. in altar. Damasc. c. 4. pag. 158. Ista phrasis (donum Presbyterii vel Presbyteratus quod est in te) durior erit.language to be in office; but its both new, and will but poorly prove, therefore it is harsh in the Greek, and it is known there be harsh phrases in both the Septuagints, and in the New Testament, and that neither of them is the most pure of that language, and there is a heavenly eloquence in all Scripture.
Mr. H. Whether by Elders be meant, the Elders of many, or of one congregation, I could never learn. Didoc…. 160.
Ans. Then this place shall say nothing for the Eldership of an Independent congregation; to which Mr. H. gives after an official power dogmatick, and doctrinal, to hear witnesses and pronounce a sentence of excommunication, which the congregation can no more oppose, then the word of God: and I hombly desire another place for such a new Judicature: for sure men and women both have the judgement of discretion to oppose all errors.
2. There was a Colledge of Elders, Act. 1. & Act. 6 & Act. 13. & Act. 21. At the ordaining of officers, and weighty affairs Mr. H. can by no Scripture warrant to us an Eldership of one single congregation, as we can give a proofe of many, yea, a Colledge of Prophets, Pastors, and Elders of many congregations at the ordination of Officers.of the Churches either must Mr. H. warrant by Scripture, that there is such a like Judicature in every Independent congregation, which (say they) may consist of seven (and that is unpossible) or that he shall be at a low ebbe to prove such an ordination of officers in their Churches as is in the Word.
As for imposition of hands; to me it is commanded in the Word, where the right way that it be not done foreign, suddenly, is charged upon Timothy, before God and his Son Iesus Christ, 1 Tim. 5. 21, 22. yet not so as it must be so necessary, necessitate medii, as it must be a null, and no ordination where it is wanting.
2. It must be a Rite of designation of the person to the office, but no Sacramental Rite of obsignation of grace, as Papists make it a Sacrament.
3. Mr. H. fails, who makes it no command contrary to 1 Tim. 5. 21, 22.
4. This place 1 Tim. 4. 14. so streights Papists, that Bellarmin Menochius in loc. Presbyt. majorum, i. e. Episcoporum. Bellarm. l. 1. de Cler. c. 15. Nobis verior videtur Graecorum expositio, qui nomine Presbyterii intelligunt chorum sive coetus Presbyterorum, id est, Episcoporum. Ita & Lyran. Cajetan. Com. in loc. Manuum impositione] ad significandum p…urium sacerdotum concursum. Vatablus in loc. Intelligit electionem qua à Presbyteris, i. e. senioribus Christianis Timo…aus est electus. Maldonatus in manusc. Citato à Cor à Lapide. Notat per Presbyterium ordinem sacerdotalem. Cor. à Lap. in loc. Verba (Vatabli) sapient Haeresin. Estius Com. in loc. An soli Episcopi, an etiam simplices Presbyteri concurrant, &c. Res. modum hunc ordinationis omnibus Presbyteris esse communem constat ex Can. 3. Concilii 4 Carthaginensis. Quod & palam significat Synodius Tridentina Sess. 14. c. 3. Vide Bellarm. de Cler. l. 1. c. 15. Tilen. in Paraenes. ad Scotos. Calderwod. Altar. Damasc. c. 4. p. 159.makes the Presbytery a company of Bishops; and so Cor. à Lap. But Cajetan. Vatablus, Maldonat. Estius, are more equitable to the Text then Mr. H. Lyran. makes the Presbytery to be Bishops.
Mr. H. To give the essentials to Timothy an Evangelist by imposition of hands of Presbyters that are inferiour to Evangelists, that are superiour and extraordinary, is beyond the power of Presbyters.
Ans. The same is objected by Papists, and by Prelaticals, as Tilenus and others. What? will Mr. H. determine whether Timothy was ordained by the Presbytery an Evangelist (for in that case his argument which he borrowed, hath Nerves) or a Presbyter? for some prelatical, men say, he was twice ordained: nor can his argument stand, except upon the popish pillar; A great Apostle or Bishop cannot be blessed by a lower Presbyter. So that the Presbytery that laid hands on Timothy must be Bishops or only Apostles: so say the Jesuites, Bellarmin, Menochus, Cor. à Lap. So Lyranus. See the answer of Didoclavius.
2. His own men, say the Brethren, that are lower then Officers, make, unmake Officers; the people, Act. 1. (say they) have a hand in creating, that is, in chusing Matthias (for that There is not a contradiction between a mediate and immediate call.is their creating) an Apostle. Ananias laid hands on Paul, Acts 9. Prophets, on Paul and Barnabas, to undergo an extraordinary charge to preach to the Gentiles, Act. 13. Mr. H. here as often deviseth a contradiction, that then the same call must be both mediate and ordinary, and immediate and extraordinary, saith he: but if mediate be taken (as it must be) for that in which men have an intervening hand, there is new Logick, but no contradiction. Parker saith, there is of man something, Park. de polit. Eccles. l. 3.and much immediately from God here, as the peoples praying, and casting of lots in Matthias his calling, and yet he is an immediately called Apostle. So in Pauls call, Act. 9. in the call of Paul and Barnabas, Act. 13.
2. Its now absurd to say that an Evangelist, an Apostle, is lower then a whole Colledge of Presbyters. See worthy Mr. M Gill…. miscel. quaest. c. 8. page 103.Gillespie.
What means Mr. H. to object that as a paradox which Mr. R. saith, A. B. is made a Pastor indefinitly, and the Pastor of such a people only? and here is a new contradiction also, for A B. is made a Physician indefinitely, habitu, actu primo, to all, and by choice, and compact, he is made a Physician fixedly only to such a corporation: so is the Pastor A. B. Here is as poor a shift, the man expoundeth Scripture in his own congregation as a Pastor, but in another, or in his own house, as a gifted man. Let Surv. par. 2. c: 2. page 63.him answer his own words: ever whom a Pastor hath no power, …ver such he can do no pastoral act, for that is an act of principal power: But to administer the Supper of the Lord to these of another congregation is a pastoral act, and that a pastor may do to these of another congregation. So Mr. H. so Mr. Cotton, Greg. Tom. 3. disp. 1. q. 1. puncto 7. sect. 41. Rob. Baron. in appendic. tra. 5. de authorit. Eccles. c. 15.so their own Discipline save this contradiction. Its too nea… popery to preach, in the chair the Pope cannot erre, as a private Dostor he may erre: So when a man preacheth as a pastor to the congregation, the members can no more oppose him then they can oppose the word of God; and when they hear the same man expound the same Scripture in his family, they are no more to submit to his Doctrine, though the same which he spake in the chair, then he is to submit to their Doctrine: for he preacheth as no Pastor in his own house, but as a gifted man, saith Mr. H.
Mr. H. Ordination and Election (saith Mr. R.) are all one by the brethrens way. Mr. H. Ans. We never said they were all ones
Ans. True, you never said it, but you say that election gives all the essentials to an officer, and destroy ordination, and make election to be all, and so you make election all one with that which to us is ordination, and that is Mr. R. his meaning.
Mr. H Election rightly ordered by the rule of Christ gives the essentials Par. 2. pag. 66.to an officer.
Arg. 1. Pastor and people, shepherd and flock are relatives, but relatives are mutual causes one of another; a pastor before a people chuse him, is a husband without a wife. See Amesius.
Ans. 1. Pastor and flock, i. e. a single congregat on (for this only Mr. H. means) are not adequate Relatives, for a Pastor is referred to all members of other congregations to whom he is The relation … a fixed Pastor to his own single congregation, proves not at all, that their choice made him a Pastor.a Pastor, and to whom he may tender, as a Pastor, the Lords Supper, 1 Cor. 10. 17. and is granted: Ergo, a pastor is a pastor to multitudes of members of other congregations, who never chose him: so that a man that hath but sipped on Logick, a… Mr. H. must thus argue, a pastor chused and made a pastor is relatum, and referred to his own single flock, all and only chusing and making him a pastor: in which there is no sip of truth. He is not a pastor to them only, as is said, for he acts as a pastor.
2. Dogmatickly, sure and what he sayes in the Synod binds not, onelyonly because it is Gospel; but (saith Mr. Cotton) also because Keys of the Kingdom, c. 6. pag. 15.it is taught by a Minister, for his calling sake: (as Christ, who so receiveth you, receiveth me) the associate Churches, who never made him a pastor.
3. Nor are all his flock, whom yet he feeds with Word, Censures, and Seals, to wit, women members of the flock, and children, and servants, the far larger part of the flock, three for one, the chusing correlate: poor souls they are as passive in acts of jurisdiction to make and unmake Pastors as brute sheep; nor can the argument be from feeder and fed simply, sheep as sheep made not their shepherd, but from feeder and the fed chusing, creating and marrying their feeder and husband; and should not Mr. H. say as true, Solomon is a married husband to three hundred women, and yet two hundred fifty of them had no causative influence, gave never consent nor oath to accept him as their husband. So neither can the Pastor be referred to two hundred and fifty women, aged children, and servants, as a part of his flock creating him a husband and feeder; for the fifty males did make him a Pastor, and they only.
2. Amesius sayes, the man made a pastor without a flock, is a husband without a wife. And the Prelates did wickedly in so doing, for they were but hirelings going up and down to preach for hire, whereas the work requires a fixed labourer to every corner of the Vineyard: but its non causâ pro causâ, and no sip of Logick, Ergo, every Pastor is so referred to his own flock, as husband and wife, so mutual consent made him a husband to them only, and a Pastor to no other, and them a spouse and wife to him only. But should the Church loose some men from their fixed charges, and send them to visit and water many planted Churches with the word and seals, these men should be lawful and edifying Pastors, not husband without wives. See Amesius, who proves Classis and Synods to be lawful from, 1. The law of Nature. 2. From common Equity.Amesius Theo. Medul. l. 1. c. 39. th. 23. Par. 1. p. 95, 96
But to return to what I had almost passed. If the laying on of hands be no specificating act of an office, because it is used in other performances, as in the sending of Paul and Barnabas to preach to the Gentiles, Act. 13. Then shall water not be essential to Baptism, nor drinking to the Lords Supper, nor blessing Sacramental in that Supper, because in Levitical Washings, in the feasts Sacred, in the Passeover, in praying for a blessing to the Word preached, all these were used. Its loose Logick, A genere ad speciem, the question is not of laying on of Its bad Logick, à genere ad speciem, imposition of hands is used in many other things: Ergo, this imposition of hands is not necessary to ordination of Officers.hands in general, but of a certain kind and species of laying on of hands by way of prayer and designation. Mr. R. knows there be divers kinds of laying on of hands.
2. Nor do I say that the Rite is essential to Ordination, but of the necessity of before.
3. Suarez and Stapleton so argue with Mr. H. from an extraordinary command.
1. The spirit speaks from Heaven, Act. 13. Separate me Saul, &c.
2. The Lord names two men.
3. He designs their work: There is here no election of the people, saith Calvin. So Mr. H. Paul was called to be an Apostle before, Act. 9. and this is for me. Though they were Apostles Calvin. Nulla hic electionis ab Ecclesia mentio, quia vocatio prorsus divina erat. Stapleton, in Antidot. page 409. Suarez. Tom. 3. in 3. par disp. 34. sect. 1. Non esse tune Saulum, vel Barnabam ordinatos, vel Presbyteros, vel Episcopos & impositionem manuum esse tantum deprecantium. Calvin. in loc. Solenni Ecclesiae subscription… obsignari jubet. Gual. in loc. Consecrationis Symbolum fuisse. So Diodati. D. Willet Controv. gener. 16 q. 1. August. De Baptism. l. 3. c. 16. Confess. Bohem. c. 14. Confess. Wittenberg c. 35. Book of Discipl. of Scotland, l. 2. c. 3. Synops. pur. Theol. disp. 42. th. 31. Mr. Seaman treats of ordination, page 71, 7…. Diodati. English Divines Annotations, [Separate me] Paul and Barnabas to be held in equal degree, and intallible authority with the rest of the Apostles. Paul was not called to be an Apostle, Acts 9. nay, not until Acts 13. that is the error of Mr. Robinson Justific. of Separar. page 296.before, the Lord will not have us to think imposition of hands a needless toy: but the wise Lord will have their calling by this solemn subscription of the Church, to be sealed, saith Calvin. as by a solemn Symbole of consecration; so saith Gualther, and Mr. H. is mistaken: we use imposition of hands, as both the Bohemian and Wittenberg confession teach; and its not to be found in the Text, that grace was given to Paul and Barnabas thereby, but that it was used as an ordinary R…te with praying, as the Presbytery doth, verse 3. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. See Mr. Seaman. Yea, suppose it be granted that Saul was an Apostle before, Act. 9. Yet 1. he was not such a designed Apostle, to wit, of the Gentiles until now. 2. Nor did the Church their part until now, that they laid their hands on them. 3. The English Divines and Diodati think they were not owned by the Church as Apostles until now. And I humbly doubt if they were called Apostles until now, Act. 13.
Mr. H. If a pastor may have all his essentials without a certain flock, then may he be a pastor without it: As the Ring is completed in the Goldsmiths shop, its ready for any buyer.
Ans. Mr. Best and Mr. H. both make the difference, That the Apostle is a pastor to all the world, but the pastor is …ed to a certain congregation. Then have they answered themselves; The Apostle hath all the essentials of a true pastor without a certain flock: Here is the Ring in the shop ready for all congregations. Now the Apostle and ordinary pastor differ not essentially as pastors in the latitude of preaching to all congregations, and to one single congregation, as the acts of preaching the same Christ, and of baptizing in an Apostle, and in an ordinary pastor, are of the same species and nature. Mr. H. and Mr. Best will have them to be pastors different in nature; why? then but their Gospels and Seals, the formal objects of their calling, must differ in nature, as indeed they make pastors of divers congregations to differ in nature, and so as many congregations different in nature, as many Gospels different in nature. The pastor is tied (saith he) to a certain congregation, out of which he is not to exercise pastoral acts. But is not the Apostle a pastor, and an excellent one to preach and tender the Seals, as well as the pastor? 2. Why saith he not, (as he ought, if he speak suitably to his own principles) It is not lawful for him to exercise pastoral acts without his own congregation, for its adultery so to do? and so its adultery to him to tender the Supper to those of another congregation, contrary to Mr. H. and his Brethren. Survey, par. 2. c. 2. p. 65. Mr. H. makes many pastors, many congregations, many preached Christs and Gospels and Seals to be different in species & nature.Nor can be open and shut the doors of the Kingdom in pastoral preaching to his own flock, and to twenty of other congregations, except one and the same act of preaching pastorally be a valid pastoral act to his own flock, and twenty times no valid pastoral act, but an act of a gift or Christian counsel which an unbaptized Pagan (so he have a talent and utterance) or a woman in a private chamber may also tender. We may without offence crave a warrant from Scripture for such an unheard Novelty. Yea, it ought to be proved, and not nakedly told us, That this congregation is essential to this A. B. their own pastor; for this or these sick persons are not essential to this Physician.
2. Paul preaches the Gospel, administers the Seals an hundred times to an hundred formed visible Churches; do these pastoral acts vary their nature into an hundred new species and natures, because all the hundred Churches are different in species and nature? and must there be hundreds thousands of Gospel-seals, Keys of the Kingdom, all different in species and nature? for so our Brethren vary Churches.
Mr. H. We allow of no Pastors ordained without a certain flock (saith Mr. R.) I reply (saith Mr. H) Quid verba sudiam, cum videam facta? for if a pastor may have all his essentials without a certain flock, then he may be pastor without a flock.
Ans. Mr. R. allows no individnum vagum, nor a prelatical Deacon made a pastor by the Prelate without any flock, nor knows our Church of Scotland any such. But I have before shewn, there may lawfu…ly, and to edification be Ambulatory and …inerary shepherds sent both to feed and gather, or plant Churches.
2. A pastor may have all his essentials without a certain flock belonging to his essence: A man hath his essentials without aptitude to laugh, which follows his essentials; and Snow hath all its essentials without whiteness: yet I say, I neither allow nor can yield that there is a man existent in the world, but he is apt to laugh, nor Snow existent but it is white. But it follows This or this flock is extrinsecal to the essence & nature of a pastor; yet is it naughty Logick, Ergo, the Prelates do right, and the Church ordinarily do lawfully create pastors without flocks. A Synod of N. E ought to ordain so many Pastors, lay hands on them, and pray and make them Pastors to the Americans, for planting Churches there, so the Americans profess their willingness to hear.not hence, that when the Church calls men to the exercise of their pastoral calling, that they may lawf…lly ordain them all to labour in no certain flock, sure that would hinder edification, but will never prove that this flock is so essential to A. B their pastor, as the wife to the husband; or that A. B. is married to this flock onelyonly, as A. B. is married to this wife onelyonly, and to none other, so as A. B. commits adultery if he celebrate the Lords Supper in another congregation nor his own. Nor will it follow, that it is intrinsecally unlawful for a Synod of New England to send 24 gracious youths understanding in the Language, ordain them pastors by laying on of hands of the Elders, and by fasting and praying, instruct them to go and act as pastors among the Savages, preaching and baptizing; and their warrant is Act. 13. and here are pastors without certain flocks. If any Act. 13. say, the Spirit gives a special command there, and names Saul and Barnabas, but its not so here: I answer, There is without question something extraordinary, Act. 13. nor are we with Seekers (too much …ortified in their way by our Brethrens Doctrine) to wait for the Lords naming from heaven Iohn, Thomas to be preachers in such a place. But to me
1. The nearness to the Savages,
2. The knowledge of their Language (as I suppose)
3. Their weak desire, or the professed not hating of the Gospel, were equivalent to a command from heaven, Go preach to the Americans, and that in the capacity as proper pastors.
Mr. H. A Pastor is onelyonly a Pastor of that flock (saith Mr. R.) over which the holy Ghost hath set him, by the authority of his Church; but yet so, as when he preacheth to the other congregation, he ceaseth not to be Pastor, howbeit not the Pastor of that flock.
Ans. We are then agreed: If a Pastor be [ONELYONLY] onelyonly a Pastor to that flock, then is he not a Pastor so any beside, then can he do no pastoral acts to them.
Ans. Great words are often small and weak Arguments His A pastor is the only fixed and appropriated pastor of his own flock, so as he is a pastor to all congregations on earth where by divine providence he shall be.last answer (saith he) yields the cause wholly—We are then agreed. Mr. R. is not a whit agreed with either Independency or the present question. If the Pastor be (OnelyOnly) onelyonly the Pastor (fixed, proper, actu secundo, in the exercise of calling pastoral) to that flock, then is he not a Pastor (actu primo, habitu, occasionally to act pastorally) to any beside. Its false, and we are distant the whole breadth of a contradiction. If a Physician be onelyonly a fixed Physician to Colchester to attend their sick, by a compact between him and the City, then he ceaseth to be an occasional Physician to any sick in the countrey, when the health of the Inhabitants of that City can permit, so as he can exercise no acts of a Physician to any beside: It follows not at all to be a pastor occasionally to all Churches, and to be a fixed pastor ordinarily and by covenant to this flock, are most consistent.
Mr. H. That which the communion (so Mr. R.) of sister-Churches requires to be done, that pastors lawfully may do (Mr. R. ought in conscience to do.) But that a pastor as a pastor may officiate (to other congregations and their members, (saith M. R.) this the communion of Churches require in the necessary absence of the pastor, to defend the flock from Wolves. The Assumption is denied, and left wholly destitute of proof. Supply may be lent, in such cases, by Christian counsel, and by mutual consociation of advice, though there be no expression of Iurisdiction, nor can we be said to take away communion of Churches, where God hath granted no right of communion.
Ans. Mr. H. cuts and divides my Arg. for it hath a demonstration of the truth of the Assumption. Christ hath established the communion of Saints, and of all Saints in specie, and of Churches in Church-praying one for another, Church-praising one for another, Eph. 6. 18. praying always with all prayer—foreign, for all Saints: but Churches as Churches M. H. destroys the communion of Churches as Churches, & destroys his own & his Brethrens principles. Way of the Churches of N. E. c. 6. sect. 1. p. 103. We admit members of other congregations to the Lords Supper with us, for we look at the Lords Supper not onelyonly as a seal of our communion with the Lord Jesus, but also of communion with his members, and that not onelyonly with the members of our own Church, but of all the Churches of the Saints.are Saints. Mr. H. gives us the name of communion of Saints by advice and counsel, which is the communion of Pagans and Saints; for Saints owe Christian counsel and Christian advice to Pagans and Idolaters. And Mr. H. gives us this goodly Divinity, God never granted any right of communion between Churches therefore it cannot be taken away. Hence one congregation owes no more Church-communion to another, than to Pagans; contrary to their own express Doctrine: for if the Brethren hold a communion of divers members of divers Churches in partaking of one Lords Supper at the same Table, then must they hold a communion of Churches as Churches. But the former they held, as the words cited clear.
Mr. H. If Ministers (saith Mr. R. in his second Arg.) may labour to convert unbelieving strangers, and to adde them to their flock, that they may enlarge Christs Kingdom, then may they exercise pastoral acts over and above others than those of their own charge. 2. Divers congregations are to keep visible communion of exhorting, rebuking one another.
Ans. Those that were no officers, but dispersed, yet preached the Gospel, Act. 8. Apollos no officer edified those that believed, Acts. 18. 27, 38. that these may be done where no pastoral acts are, is evident.
Ans. Mr. H. is pleased to answer my Arg. The proof is added where no need is, that which is feeble, false, that hath no shadow of truth, to wit, the consequence is not at all confirmed, nor any attempt made to that purpose. Its well known a fixed pastor in his A pastor as a pastor preaching to his own flock, may convert some of his own & of other congregations, & administer the Lords Supper to both.own Pulpit preaching to his own flock, hath in the same act been instrumental to adde to his own flock real converts. Let the Reader judge what truth it hath, that in the same numerical single act of teaching, the man acts both as a pastor, and as no pastor, but as Apollos a private man onelyonly, as Mr. H. saith.
2. Whether it be feeble or no that a pastor tenders the Lords Supper to one of another congregation (which he may lawfully do, say our Brethren *Way of the Churches of Ch. in N. E. c. 6. sec. 1. p. 103. Mr. H. Survey, pa. 2. c. 2. p. 65.) as a pastor; if he tender it as a private man, I know how feebly Mr. H. and all Anabaptists and Socinians can defend this: Then there is a real truth in this, that a pastor may exercise pastoral acts to others than to those of his own charge.
3. It seems to me feeble, though the instances of the dispersed who preached, Acts 8. and of Apollos, Acts 18. as private Christians, and as no officers, were granted (which to me is false) therefore when a pastor in one and the same Sermon and words, preaching to his own flock, converts one of his own flock and one of another flock, that be acts as an officer, and opens pastorally the gates of the Kingdom of Heaven to the one, and acts as no officer, as not sent of God, but as a private man to the other: (except Mr. H. maintain the Socinian sending to preach) I see not how Mr. H. can here expede himself.
4. Mr. H. will not say all that were scattered Act. 8. (for What sort of preachers the scattered disciples, Act. 8. were.they were all scattered, except the Apostles, ver. 1.) did preach the Gospel, for there were of them women, ver. 3. then some of them onelyonly preached. And if Mr. H. say they were not officers, Mr. R. says they were officers, and that the extraordinariness of their condition, supplied the want of a Church calling, and let Mr. H. but attempt to bring a proof for it.
5. If nothing extraordinary was here, l…t Mr. H. or any for him vindicate the place Act. 8. from Anabaptists, who alledge the same place Act. 8. to destroy the standing Ordinance of the Ministery: and reade the judicious Tractate of the Ministers of London, of Mr. Collings.
6. I had rather believe Oecumenius and Chrysostome, who judge Apollos to be a Minister; and far rather follow Gualther, … Gualth. in Act. 18. homil. Dioda. An. Act. 18. 27. through grace] this may have relation to Apollos, who by his authentical Ministery called grace, Rom. 1.—did much advance the Christian faith. Calvin. Com. in Act. Potens in Scripturis] docet hic locus, debere potentes eos esse in Scripturis quibus docendum est in Ecclesia.Diodati, and Calvin, who …each, that Apollos was a renowned Minister, the Successor and Collegue of Paul at Corinth, 1 Cor. 3. 6. Mr. H. not caring for these Lights, without warrant of Scripture determines Apollos no officer, and so do many Anabaptists with him.
7. Nor is there any disease in my third Arg. for take away Church-rebuking, and Church comforting, and pastoral acting of officers toward fellow-Churches, as Mr. H. expresly and in terminis doth, and turn all those into Christian counsels and advices, which Christians out of Church-order, and women owe to those that are no Churches, even to Pagans: And you
1. Take away all communion of Church-talents, and Church-gifts and graces, for the edifying by Word or Writ sister-Churches.
2. You destroy all pastoral and official gifts to sister-Churches in extreme necessity of ravenous Wolves raging among them: for a pastor as a pastor must be able to convince gainsayers, Tit. 1. 9, 10, 11. And suppose the officers of the Church of Sardis were sick and imprisoned, there is taken away all communion of pastoral talents to convince Arrians, Nicolaitans, the Disciples of Ebion and Cerinthus, or to strengthen and heal backsliders.
3. The sister members of the mixt congregation, as private Christians in their closets and houses, may pray for their sick sister, but it is unlawful for the Church to put up any Church-prayers or Church-rebukes, let them perish a thousand times: Is not the Lord offended at this wicked selfishness?
But Mr. R. saith, That one congregation hath no power over another, Page 64.nor one Classis over another.
Ans. He bids at all, that two parallel members, two parallel Churches as perallel, are coordinate, and have no power juridical to excommunicate one another, for then one member Iohn may excommunicate Thomas, for ex communication and juridical Court-power is not exercised by the Church as the Church, for then all and every Church had power juridical of excommunication, which Mr. R. will not yield, but it is exercised by such a Church as hath power over its own members subordinate not coordinate: But this is nothing against me; for Church-power is wider than Iuridical power to excommunicate: Church-power Church-power is broader and larger than juridical power.includes Church-preaching, Church-hearing, Church-praising, Church-rebuking, Church-exhorting, Church-comforting, Church-tendring of the Seals. But Church-power of excommunicating i… but a branch of all these. As also this is a wide mistake in Mr. H. that he thinks, if a pastor have right to administer pastoral acts, there he hath pastoral power to challenge his right, and preach there where there are fixed pastors all Pag. 64.the land over; nay, he must for the actual exercise of his right have some providential call, as is clear Christ saith, Go teach all Mat. 28. 19.nations, baptizing them: that gives to Peter, Iohn, yea all the Apostles, Paul and others, right to be pastors to all the earth: Yet it is clear, that for the actual exercise of that right, there is required a special call of God for the place; as
1. Peter and Iohn could not preach to Samaria, while God disposed so that the Apostles sent them, hearing that they had received the Gospel, Acts 8. 14, 15. Nor Peter preach to the Gentiles,
2. While he was warned by a Vision, Acts 10. 20. & 11. 12. Nor
3. Could Paul and Barnabas go and preach to the Gentiles: Nor
4. Peter and Paul go, the one to preach to the Jews, the other to the Gentiles, while they had a warrant from the Spirit so to do, Acts 13. 1, 2, 3, &c. Gal. 2. 7, 8. Nor
5. Could Paul forbear to go to Bithynia, and go to Macedonia to preach the Gospel, Act. 16. 7, 9, 10, 11, 12. without a warrant from God. Upon the same ground, though a pastor called by the Church to be a pastor, and be chosen by such a Though one be a complete pastor to all Churches actu primo, yet the call of God is necessary for the exercise thereof hic & nunc. Pag. 66, 67.flock, be by his Ordination made a pastor to all congregations, yet for the actual exercise thereof, he must have a call, or some choice or desire of the people …o preach pastorally hic & nunc, and even as the Apostles, who were called by Christ, Mat. 28. 19. to be pastors to all Nations, yet could not hic & nunc, actu secundo, exercise their calling, but by direction of the Spirit, as is said.
And all congregations (saith Mr. H.) may justly deny hi… leave to administer either seals or censures among them, and yet he is a complete officer.
Ans. Its a dream to say, a particular Classis or Presbytery hath called him, and yet they refuse him leave to administer seals and censures among them; that is as much, as, They have called him, and they have not called him. We now in a constituted Church, contend not for one who is ordained by the Church a pastor to all Nations, as Mat. 28. without an eye to a certain society, countrey or flock, either as an Ambulatory pastor (as is said, for the care of spreading the Gospel is not dead with the Apostles, as Seekers truth) or as an ordinary fixed pastor, and VVhoever hath a pastoral power to preach to the people, hath not a juridical power to censure them.their obstinacy to whom he offers the Gospel, hinders him not to be a complete officer, as is clear Mat 10. 13, 14, 15. Luke …. 51, 52, 53. Mat. 2…. 3, 4, 5. Act. 13. 44, 45, 46. & 17. 32. & 18. 6. in many who refuse to hear and receive the Apostles, who yet are the complete officers and Ambassadors of Christ. Nor is it true, that whoever hath a pastoral power to preach, they have also a juridical power to censure the refulers to hear. The Brethren will not stand to this by their own way.
Mr. H. The people may put a pastor out of his office, if scandalous Pag 68, 69.and heretical; Ergo, they give him the office. The Antecedent is proved, Mat 7. 5. Phil. 3. 2. Beware of false teachers, beware of dogs. Mr. R. They may reject him from being their pastor, but their power reaches not so far as to reject him from being no pastor.
Ans. Then a species may be destroyed, and the general nature remains: he is not their pastor, and yet he is a pastor in general; Thomas or John is destroyed, and yet the general nature of Thomas or John remains safe.
Ans. If Independent Government depend upon no better Logick than this, (as too much like stuff I meet with in reviewing this Review) I trust it shall not stand. For
1. Christ, Mat. 7. 15. speaks not to a single Independent congregation as such, which he must do, if Mr. H. dispute as a Logician. And the Argument must be thus:
Whos… are commanded to beware of false Teachers and dogs, they may authoritatively depose officers. But women are to beware Mr. H. his Logick is, we are to beware of false Teachers, Ergo, the congregation may depose their officers if …eretical and scandalous.of false Teachers, and to try the spirits, and to beware of justification by circumcision, Phil. 3. yea, those that are of other congregations, and single persons, children and servants, and all Christians who are not to judge rashly, Mat. 7. 1, 2, 3, 4. all who are to pray earnestly, ver. 7. all who are to choose the narrow way to heaven, v. 13. and to know Teachers by their works, v. 16. all who are to worship God in the Spirit, rejoyce in God, have no confidence in the flesh, Phil. 3. 2, 3. and thousands beside the male-Church of a single congregation, are to do all these, and women are not to receive false Teachers into their house, 2 Iob. 10. 11. are to beware of false Teachers. Did Mr. H. believe a judicious Reader would, or Mr. H. should pass his judgment of such toyes as these?
2. To be a fixed pastor to this flock, is no species of a pastor, but a meer accident; nor to be a pastor habitu to all the congregations To be a pastor to all congregations, by Mr. H. is most mistakingly made a genus, and for the same man to be a fixed pastor to he a species.on earth, a genus to A B. but to be a pastor habitu to all congregations, is and makes A. B. as individual a pastor, as to be a fixed pastor makes him an individual pastor. A Rudimentary in Logick would not say, the same individual pastor could be a genus to himself, as homo is genus (homo is species he ought to say) to Thomas. So when an accident is removed, such as fixedness of the pastoral calling to the congregation of Boston, Mr. Cotton remains a pastor: Else I might say, When Thomas is no more a Physician to sick Iohn, for sick Iohn is dead, Thomas leaves off to be a Physician to any other sick person on To be a fixed pastor to this or that flock, is a meer accident, not a species or kind of a pastor, not to be a Pastor habitu to all congregations, can be genus to such a Pastor, as Mr. H. saith.earth: So Thomas is destroyed as Thomas, (whereas a poor accident onelyonly to be a Physician in actual excercise to sick Iohn is onelyonly destroyed) and yet the general nature of Thomas is still safe and maintained. The like answer is due to that which he calls a fundamental Rule, sublato uno relatorum tollitur alterum. A man would say Logick and Reason were turned upside down. Thomas is no actual Physician to Iohn now dead, and that relation between Thomas and the dead man is gone: Ergo, Thomas himself, as a man, and his other relations to all other sick persons who call for his medicinal labours perish. Reason and Logick should perish in the man who should so argue.
Mr. H. If a person or Presbytery have Ministerial power, they Par. 2. p. 70, 71.must execute it in their own persons and places, they cannot delegate any supernatural power, or saving quality, or habit to another—the mystery of iniquity in some measure hath eaten into the Presbytery. They have taken power to ordain before election, and make indefinite Pastors, and have taken all power from the people.
Ans. 1. The issue is, the male-Church only hath this power, to make and unmake officers: and they have of late, being not the fourth part of that which they call the onelyonly visible Church of Redeemed Ones, taken all power of Censures, so Presbyters may delegate messengers of the Churches.that the rest have no consent, which is a popish domineering over their faith; whereas we hold, the Church not consenting, Censures are not to be drawn out at all: here is more popery and bratish domineering over the consciences of the officers in point of Heresie, to speak nothing of divers points of Popery, Anabaptisme, Socinianisme that goeth along with this way.
2. That the Churches cannot delegate a power to Paul and Barnabas their messengers, to determine in a Synod according to the Word, can be denied by none, but such as deny Synods, contrary to Act. 15.
3. Nor knoweth the Scripture any rule from civil Corporations, who both make and chuse David and Saul Rulers and Kings, to infer that the male-Church cannot preach nor administer seals, but they both create and chuse Spiritual Officers. We may long call for Scripture to prove this, but in vain, it is a Tradition that we must believe, because so say our Brethren.
Nor is it Episcopacy for Timothy and Titus to ordain Ministers in a joynt society (in collegie) (Episcopal Monarchy in Pope and Prelates.) Nor is it to ordain Pastors indefinitely, when it is done both with consent of the flock, and in reference to a certain flock. Its true, 1 Tim. 5. 22. Tit. 1. 5. there is no mention made of a Presbytery, nor is there mention there of a congregation: but Timothy cannot preach in season, and out of season 2 Tim. 4 1, 2. nor can he rebuke before all these that sin publickly, but in the congregation, 1 Tim. 5. 20. So neither can Timothy his alone prove the Deacons, 1 Tim. 3. 10. for the Apostles, Acts 6. did it not, nor would he … a prelatical Monarch, his alone lay on hands, and call to the Ministry, 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. for the Scripture saith a Colledge did it, … 13. 1, 2, 3. 1 Tim. 4. 14. and Papists have the same ground (but it is groundless) that the Keyes were given to Peter only, Mat. 16. and there is no word of a Presbytery: and Christ saith, Iohn 21. thrice to Piter only, Lovest thou me? feed my sheep. And there is no word of a Colledge of Apostles: but our Divines with Ier…m, Cyprian, and the Fathers, say, equal power of See and beware of D. B… son of Perper. Government, c. 12. pag. 208. he abuses both Scripture and Fathers. Tilenus, jam deficiens paraenes. ad Scotos, page 10. Dunam. Conc. in Apoc. 2. Beza in Apo. 2. Reynaldus lib. Apocryph. praelect. 62. See Tilen. Syntag. disp. 26, …7. Bucan. loc. 43. q. 39. Professor. Leydens. in Synopsi purioris Theologiae disp. 42. thes 31. Jus Pastoris eligendi est penes Ecclesiam (ausim dicere non marium solum) ac proinde plebi commun… cùm Presbyterio, jus ordinandi soli Presbytetio proprium. Cyprian. Ep. 68. Videmus de divinâ authoritate descendere, ut sacerdos, plebe praesente, sub omnium oculis deligatur, & dignus atque idoneus publico judicio ac test…monio comprobetur.feeding, and power of the Keyes was given to them all at a Synod, Mat. 28. 19, 20. Ioh. 20. 21, 22, 23. Acts …. 8. and the same objection Prelates mo…e.
Nor shall we be against Iunius, Melanctho…, Whit…aker, Danaeus. The jus and right of ordination is in the Church, as in the virtual subject, to wit, in Elders and people. (But our Brethren must have a sole male-Church of Brethren.) But we may well say, the calling in concreto, is that which these Divines mean… so Melancthon saith, the calling contains jus …ligendi, vocandi, ordinandi. Other Divines speak more accurately, as the learned Professors of Leyden, who beyond all doubt follow Cyprian.
Mr. H. These, in whose power it is whether any shall rule over Mr. H. Surv. pa. 2. c. 2. p. 72, 73.them, or no; from their voluntary subjection it is, that the party chosen hath right, and stands in possession of rule and authority over them. It holds not which Mr. R. saith. Now ordination is an act of jurisdiction, such as to send an Embassador, but that an Embassador consent to go (such as is election) is no act of jurisdiction, for a Father to give his Daughter in marriage to one, is an authoritative act of a Father: but for the Daughter to consent to the choice is no act of authority.
Ans. True, consenting gives n… power, but the peoples giving of the pastor authority ever them, their calling, and by willing subjection, delivering up themselves to be ruled by him in Christ i… an act of power. That is false whith Mr. Ball and Mr. R. say, If the people could virtually give being to Pastor and Teacher, then they might execute the office of Pastors and Teachers: for Aldermen ch…se the Mayor Souldiers the General, yet nonè of them can execute the office of Mayor and General.
Ans. 1. The proposition is printed in other Characters, and hath nothing found in it, nothing of Scripture or reason to prove it, and is a needy begging of the question.
Those in whose power it is whether any shall rule over them or no, &c. Mr. H. seeing himself widely out, durst not assume. But it is in the peoples power, whether any rule over them or no, &c. This the assumption must be, or the argument is non-sense: Its not in the peoples power, whether any rule over them or no. More wild Divinity is scarue heard of, it must then be in mens power, whether there be Rulers, Apostles, Pastors, Teachers in the Church; and Government, or none at all but A…archy and confusion: but a Divine institution was never in the power of people; but Christ Jesus foreign, gave, instituted, and ordained Apostles, Pastors, and Officers in his house, Eph. 4. 11. 1 Cor. 12. 28.
2. The proposition is false and never proved; That their voluntary subjection, whose it is to chuse officers, gives formally and causa…iv…ly right of ruling to the chosen. I thus resort it, to shew the falshood of it; Then the sick man, in whose power it is to chuse Thomas to be his Physician, and no other man, he gave causatively right and being to Thomas to be a Physician.
Then 2. he in whose power it is to chuse Iohn and no other, to build him a house: he in whose power it is to chuse Richard to be a School master to teach his Son, and no other School-master, That these in whose power it is that any should rule over them, or no, from their voluntary subjection it is, that the party chosen hath right, & stands in possession of rule and authority over them, is most false, yet a principle to Mr. H. Yea, there is a voluntary subjection to the Ministry sent in general, Isa. 52 7. Rom. 10. 14, 14. Matth. 10. 14, 40, 41. Act. 2 37. Act. 16. 30. and to every ordinance of God in converts, Act 9. 6. Act. 10. 32, 33. Matth. 9. 9, 10, &c. but it followeth not therefore such give a being to their ordinances. There is a difference between being a Pastor, and being a fixed Pastor to this people.he gave causatively right and being to the party Iohn, so chosen to be a Mason, and to the party so chosen, Richard, causatively right and being to be a School-master. Nothing more false, Iohn was a Mason, Richard a School-master before their chusers were born. Nothing follows, but the sick mans choice made Thomas a Physician, not simply, but to him only: and so must we say of the other two, and multitudes of other examples. And …o nothing follows from Mr. H. his argument, but only this flocks choice gave him causatively right and being, not simply to be a Pastor (ordination of the Elders, Act. 6. 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 5. 22, &c. did that) but to be this flocks fixed Pastor: for we must distinguish betwixt a Pastor and this peoples Pastor, a Pastor actu primo, and a fixed Pastor in the second acts and exercise of his calling, hic & nunc, to this people, as touching their formales rationes, if our Brethren will give us leave, if not, we value not; Scripture and good Logick are for us.
3. Mr. Ball and Mr. R. say not in several places, yes, no where, that the people may preach and baptize, if they give causatively being to Pastor and Teacher: but the people may then do and perform as high acts official and juridical. To the impertinent instance of Aldermen and Major, I have answered.
4. It is but …nsis and gladius that is in the reply; for the peoples delivering up themselves by voluntary subjection to be ruled by him, gives him no more being and right to be a Pastor, but only right to be their Pastor (which is accidental to their calling) then the sick mans voluntary subjection of, and delivering up of his body and health under the Lord and Creator of life, to Thomas a skilled Physician, to follow all his medicinal injunctions, gives causatively being to Thomas to be Physician, whereas he was a Physician many years before.
Mr. H. Ordination is not an act of supreme Iurisdiction, but Page 74.of order rather. It gives not being nor constitution to an officer, but is rather the admission and confirmation of him in his office.
Ans. That is said, not proved; if it be an act of order, and commanded of God, a… where the regulating of a thing, that it be not done foreign, rashly, is commanded, there the thing it self is commanded, 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Then your ordinatihn by the sole male Church void of all officers, and calling of What being ordination confers. See Book of Ecclesiastick Discipline at Geneva. M. DCXXX. page 65, 66.officers without officers (a thing without example in the Scripture, except where God calls immediatly) wants an act of order commanded of God, and that in an ordinary way; for your way is, in ordinary the Church is before the officers and gives being to the officers.
2. If ordination be but an approbation of the officers, who have already being, and not necessary that ordination should be where there is election of people, then it shall be strange, that there were officers at all; the calling of officers we read of in the New Testament (who yet need not be there, but are ex superabundanti, present) as Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 13. 1, 2, 3. Act. 14. 23. 1 Tim. 4. 14 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Tim. 3. 10, &c. and no where is there vola vel vestigium, of a command or promise to the Church destitute of officers, to call and give being to officers, nor any practice of the Apostles for it. And I am so far from owning such a Logick as Mr. H. puts upon me, The Church have not received power of excommunicating all their officers; Ergo, they have not received that power, a… neither thing, nor words, are in my mind, or book. But I The specifick acts of calling men to the Ministery ascribed to Ministers, but never in Scripture to unofficed brethren, prove our ordination.provoke all the Brethren for a warrant, or shadow of a warrant, by precept, by promise, by practice in Scripture for a Church void of officers, that hath power to call and give being to officers, or admit in, or cast out members, or perform any Church worship.
3. Let it be considered, if Christ have given any jurisdiction at all, it must be in calling and in giving being to the officers of Christs visible Kingdom: but the specifick acts of giving being to the officers are to set men over the work, Act. 6. 3. foreign, to separate and set apart for the calling, Act. 13. 2. to prove foreign, before they be put in the Ministry, whether they have the requisite qualifications or not, 1 Tim. 3. 10. to lay hands on men for the office cautelously, 1 Tim. 5. 2…. to commit the charge to faithful men, able to teach others, 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. are ascribed to Elders, to Prophets, to foreign.Pastors. Shew me the like ascribed to your Church wanting officers. Mr. R. his comparisons of an Embassador, &c. must stand then till you answer these often proposed Arguments.
It is weak, that Mr. H. that the Elders of Ephesus was congregational. Page 86.Mr. H. answers not my Arguments on the contrary, nor toucheth them.
2. Its most weak to say. Dath Paul exhort the Elders, when they are assembled in the Classis to watch against rav…ning Wolves, or did they not this in their special charges? As if a Judicature of civil Watchmen, a Colledge of Physicians were not both alone, and in their respective Assemblies to watch over the City and the sick.
Mr. H. When Churches were compl…ted with all officers, that Page 82, 83.then ordination was acted by a Colledge of Pastors, there is nothing in the Text saith any such thing.
Ans. The homogeneal Church yet wanting officers (saith Mr. H.) is complete to create and call its officers, and a… Independent in an Island without officers, and hath that power, Par. 1. c. 8. pag. 89, 90, 91.and no word of precept, or promise, or any such practice for such a Church creating their officers. Paul should have bid them use their power of ordaining, as the twelve Apostles, Act. 6. hids them use their power of chusing. And Paul should not have charged Timothy to usurp ordaining of officers, where there was a Church in an orderly way, being the first formal subject of the Keyes to do it. And Mr. R. gives instances, where the Elders are commanded to ordain, and lay on hands, and sayes this command or practice is not to be found in the Word, in the hands of the people.
My fourth Argument stands, because every twelve in a family, Page 89. There is an Independent Church in a family.is an homogeneous Church. True (saith Mr. H.) but they watch one over another by family rules.
Ans. That is a begging of the question; for a family combination hath all the essentials of a Church combination, if the Church be taken for an homogeneal association, and wanteth only the name: for they cannot watch over one another, as touching seals, and no more can any homogeneous Church of divers families so watch over one another.