Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 3 · Chapter 3
CHAP. III.
Whether Mr. Hooker his Arguments conclude strongly that the People have a power of judging.
MR. H. 197. The power of judgement is in the Rulers directively (as formally in the people) they out of an office power, leading the whole proceeding therein.
Ans. I never heard that a chief member, either Speaker in All power of office is by Mr. H. only in moderating and opening the Assembly, which is no power of Jurisdiction.Parliament, or President in Councel, or Chair-man in Committee, or Moderator in Assembly, was a place of juridical power, or office over the Judicature, or Members of the Church; a place of priority of order it is, which one may have to day and want to morrow: for the nature of order requires that one open the Assembly, and moderate the meeting: if this be all, the official power that Mr. H. gives to officers, is weak, and of no worth:
2. There is no power, no act of ruling and governing given to the Pastors above the Brethren. For,
1. To call an Assembly, Io…l 2. Is not proper to the officers, the Assembly by its intrinsical power from Christ, may convene in his name. Nor,
2. To examine members, whether they be Apostles or not, by their way cannot be proper to the Elders ruling, for it agrees to other members, as wel… as to them.
3. Ordination is, and may be (according to our Brethren) and creating of Officers, though Mr. Cotton make it peculiar to Officers, because of Act. 6. 6. 1 Tim 4. 14. as Mr. Cotton cites; yet Mr. H. saith, the Brethren may do it.
4. It is no act of the Key of Authority, that the Elders open the doors of speech more then that one speak before another, or that Elihu speak more then the rest of the friends, is no act of the power of the Keyes. Nor,
5. Is the preparing of matters, and receiving of complaints, by our Brethrens way proper to them then to other officers more, since Mr. H. saith all equally have the power of the Keys from the Church of Brethren. What power of the Keyes the Pastors have in preaching and exhorting, they have it rather over the congregation, then over the male-Church of Brethren; nor is it so properly a superiority of rule, as of doctrine, which in Synods they have over Churches; nor can the Pastor have a directive power as a Pastor over the brethren; since by M. H. his way, they may judg and censure him. Can the King be their Judg with a directive power, who not being a Parliament, may judg authoritatively whether he should be King or not, and may dethrone him?
Mr. H. Arg. 1. Ejusdem ist instituere & destituere, The people have power to consure and depose Officers in case of heresie, or otber iuiquity, for they gave power by election to Rulers.
Ans. It is ordinary to our Brethren to prove in a Circle, the fraternity have power to chuse Officers, ere they have power to depose; and they have power to censure & excommunicate, he whole being above the part: ergo, they must have power to ordain: we deny the Fraternity can either make or unmake officers.
2. That is not so undeniable a proposition, an Assembly of Officers, a Church of thirty may constitute themselves in a Judicature, and so may a Parliament, by an intrinsecal power in themselves: Ergo, they may for heresie and scandal against the Law of Nature destroy and censure themselves, it followeth not.
3. Apostles were immediatly called of God, and made Pastors Men have not the being of Pastors by every new call to preach.habitu, by that call and special direction of the spirit (which was in stead of Election) Paul is forbidden to preach in Bithynia, and called to preach in Macedonia: how many times should the P…ostles be made Pastors, and unpastored again, if the present call be that only which makes them Pastors? Levites were ordained to serve the Tribes joyntly, and when the Tribes were dispersed, the Levites were dispersed, and remained Levites in whatever place they came to, as Mr. Hudson sheweth.Essence and Unity of the visible Church chap. 6.
4. If Pastors be baptized, and members of the Churchonly to which they are chosen Pastors, then as to the former part, they and all other baptized to one single congregation, when It may be said if professors be members baptized to one only congregation, they are unbaptized when they depart and turn members of another congregation.that Church is dissolved, are no more baptized, and as Pastors cannot exercise pastoral acts, but to their own Church; neither can they act as baptized professors in another Church, baptizing being a Citizens solemn incorporation to the Church, and by this way to the Church independent only: as a man that is only a free Citizen in Norwich, cannot for that be a free Citizen in York, or perform the acts of a free Citizen in all free Cities in England, as he can perform them in Norwich. And suppose that Norwich lose its freedom, the man is a Citizen of no free City of England: for as he is made solemnly by admittance into the Church, into which he is baptized a visible member incorporated by Baptism, as by his Burges Writ, or Burges Ticket, when the City is dissolved, and no free City, either his Burges Ticket to be a member of that City is null, or then by The Apostle & John Baptist asked for no congregation but immediatly upon confession baptized.his Burges Ticket he was made a member of all other congregations. Iohn Baptist and the Apostles, Act. 8. Ioh. 3. after a confession never asked for their conversion, but baptized, for foreign, straightway without delay, even in the night (for so the word noteth, Matth. 21. 19. Luke 4 39. & 5. 25. & 8. 44.) The Jaylor and his house, Act. 16. Cornelius and his house, Act. 10. the Eunuch, the multitude of Iohn Baptists hearers were baptized members of the universal Church, 1 Cor. 12. 12, 13. where there was no particular congregation to receive, & admit them as members, as Mr. Richard Baxter solidly observes: nor is it worthy the refuting, that the Apostles by an extraordinary power might baptize them, though to no certain Church, but Pastors now have not that power: for the Apostles baptizing and preaching, and administring the other seal differ not The Apostles preached and baptized in all places, as ordinary officers by the same command, Mat. 28. 19. by which we teach and baptize.in species and nature, from the ordinary pastoral acts of an ordinary Minister, they speak with tongues, work miracles as Apostles; but they preach and baptize hic & nunc, as ordinary Officers. And as to the other part, the calling of a Minister so, must be up and down, as he officiates to his own Church, he acts as a Pastor, as to these of another flock he tenders the Lords Supper as a gifted man.
5. Though a congregation be of Divine right, and Paul be assigned to teach the Gentiles, Peter the Circumcision, Gal. 2. by an ordinance of God, yet it follows not, that Peter acts not as a Pastor, when he baptizes Gentiles, or that Paul acts not as either, Apostle or Pastor when he baptizeth the Jews, and that Paul was ten hundred times a Pastor, and again no Pastor, as God called him to act pastorally in ten hundred congregations, and went from them; for the call of Gods divine leading where to preach, and where not, in Macedonia, not in Bithynia, Act. 16. but the local division of congregations and provinces: as the second General Councel defines; and that the provinces that belonged to Ephesus were added to Constantinople, as Socrates Concilium Nic. foreign, Socrat. l. 3. c. 8. Concilium Chalced. c. 2. Every Bishop is a Bishop of the Universal Church, as is the Pope. Doct. Ioan. Crakantborp in defens, Eccles. Anglica. contra M. Antonii de Dominis Archiep. Spalato injurias Anno 1625. Ed. per Ioan. Barkham c. 28. p. 168, 169. Episcopi omnes, quâ Episcopi, Universalis Ecclesiae pastores sunt consulendo, hortando, monendo, arguendo, increpando, scriptis simul & voce alios omnes instruendo, & cum vel haeresis ulla vel Schisma grassari coeperit, velut incendium publicum illud restinguendo & ne latius serpat providendo.saith was from custom.
When the Bishop of Spalato defending the Supremacy of the Pope, saith, that he thus differs from other Bishops, that he is universal Bishop of all the Churches on earth, but other Bishops are Pastors of their own particular Diocesses and Chu-ches. D. Ioan. Crakanthorp Chaplain to King Iames wrot a learned book, in which he proves, that all Pastors are Pastors of the Church Universal, habitu & actu primo, as well as the Bishop of Rome, especially because in General Councels 2. and without them, they are to care for all the Churches on earth.
2. That the particular designation of single congregations, is by no divine right assigned by Christ; but by the prudence of the Church.
1. For if it were not so, there could be no transporting of Ministers from one Church to another.
2. Because Churches then could not be enlarged, nor diminished, nor changed, which we see may be done. Cyprian as most sound in many things, so in this is to be considered, we are (saith Cyprian. l. 3. Epist. 13. Pastores multi sumus, unum tamen Gregem pascimus, & oves universas quas Christus suo sanguine & passione quaesivit, colligere & fovere debemus.he) Many Pastors, but we feed one flock. We saw how Mr. H. was pleased to fall upon me, because I said that every Pastor is a Pastor to the Church-universal, by exhorting in Word and Writ; yea, by ruling in Councels, and is not tyed as a Pastor to employ his labours to one single flock only: we therefore condemn in our Brethren; (1) That the care pastoral of any Church, but of one congregation, of which the man is Pastor Iure divino, quasi glob… affixus, is perished, since the Apostles died.
2. That they distinguish not between a Pastor as he is a Pastor to all Churches, as the Lord in providence shall call, and between the same pastor, as tyed to his single Church, rather than to another, by no divine right, but the prudence of the Church which is not infallible.
3. That it is utterly unlawful to transplant Pastors upon any necessity of the greater good of the Church, against the law of nature.
Mr. H. 2 Arg. Its in the power of the Church and Fraternity to admit members; Ergo, to cast them out, as appears in the admitting of officers.
Ans. 1. Observe the circular probation between this and the former Argument, as is said.
2. Give us one Scripture or jot where the Fraternity is either called the Redeemed Church, for so women are not Redeemed, The sole fraternity neither is, nor is called by any Scripture, the redeemed or governing Church.or the governing Church, for the officers are not Rulers; or let Mr. H. give us a third Church.
3. That the Fraternity onelyonly, and no women, gave their tacit consent to the chusing of Matthias, Act. 1. of the Deacons, Act. 6. of the Elders, Act. 14. 23. since their consciences were concerned, and they are parts of the fed and redeemed Church as well as men, can never be proved: and who can deny women Cypr. l. 3. ep. 3. Plebs maxime potestatem habet vel dignos sacerdores eligendi vel indignos recusandi. Cypr. l. 1. ep. 5. alias ep. 66. Lib. 1. ep. 7. alias 64. Lib. 4. ep. 6. alias ep. 56.to be of the plebs, people and fraternity, as Cyprian speaks? and of the brethren that Paul, Iames, and the Apostles wrote unto? Doth not Cyprian divide the Church in stantes & la psos? were there not women that both yielded to the Persecutors, and denied the truth, and stood to the truth and suffered? Reade Cyprian cited by Mr. Cotton, and in other places.
M. H. 3 Arg. Either the people have a causal virtue in judging, or onelyonly a consent; the latter cannot be: To consent to evil is sin; to dissent from a just sentence, makes them to hinder the execution of a just sentence.
Ans. This is already answered, and hath not the weight of the some of the water. Elders have either a causal virtue in judging, or onelyonly a consent: the former I see not how they have.
Mr. H. Mr. Tho: Goodwyn, and Mr. Philip Nye, give them M. Tho. Goodwyn and Mr. Philip Nye, Preface to Mr. Cottons treatise of the Keyes.onelyonly an authoritative directing power, such as Parents have in the marriage of their daughter, which is an authority extrinsecal, which the Magistrate and Pastor in their kinde have; but the Virgin hath the onelyonly formal and intrinsecal power to consent, and so to make the marriage, and to dissent so as it shall be no marriage: In which case the Fraternity onelyonly or Male-Church formally, intrinsecally judgeth, and may judge, though there were no The people have no causal virtue in judging, but onelyonly in consenting by the judgement of disc…etion to the sentence. The argument is re…orted.officers, as the Maid may marry, though Parents and Tutors were dead; and the directive authority of the officers may be wanting, as the directive authority of the Magistrate may be wanting.
2. The officers cannot consent to a sinful sentence, its not their duty to sin, nor can they dissent from a just sentence, for then they might hinder the execution of a just sentence, and the officers shall keep communion with a man whom the people excommunicates; and that the people may erre, is too well known, in the condemning of Ieremiah, of Christ, and of others, And whereas he saith, The dissenting shall blemish the wisdome of God, its answered already: It blemishes our folly, but not his wisdome, when people are divided from Rulers, and Rulers from people.
3. There is a midst between consenting to an unjust sentence, and a dissenting from a just sentence, to wit, a consenting by the judgement of discretion tacitly to a just sentence, in which there is a causality popular, nor judicial nor juridical, coming from the inherent power of the Keyes.
Mr. H. Arg. 4. It crosseth the rule of righteous proceeding, to Pag. 197, 198.understand the Church. Mat. 18. of the Elders onelyonly: Suppose three Elders in a Church all have been convinced before witnesses There is a necessity of telling the Presbyterial Church, by M. H. his own argument.in private of an offence; they will not hear; the offended brethren must tell the Church: that is, they complain to these three Elders of these three Elders, and make the guilty both judge and party in their own cause. 2. Suppose of these three two be offenders, the grieved party must tell the third, and so one shall be the Church.
Ans. This inconvenience follows clear from the hampering of all power of the Keyes within one single congregation, in the midst of six congregations round about.
2. The Book of Discipline of New England saith, A Church Independent may consist of four officers and three brethren, three brethren are offenders, if they cannot in this case tell the Elders onelyonly, for they are not the Church, Mat. 18. saith Mr. Hooker; Ergo, the three offending brethren must complain to the three offending brethren, and make themselves both Judge and party; therefore the Argument necessitates us to tell the Elders of associate Churches.
Mr. H. Arg. 5. If the power of judgement be in Rulers, then Page 19….it is either in some or one, to wit, Peter, and to h…m derived from the rest, and that is Popery, or it is in them all equally; for those that are equal in commission, are equal in power, but that is not, for the teaching Elders are in degree and also in power superiour to the ruling Elder.
Ans. The issue of this Argument is to strip the officers naked of all power of Rule, and Mr. H. must take it away off his own way, as well as off ours.
2. The teaching Elders are worthy of double honour above the ruling Elder, 1 Tim. 5. 17. for they speak to us the word of the Lord, Hebrews 13. 7. and are the Ambassadors of God, who in Christs stead beseech us to be reconciled to God, 2 Cor. 5. 20. Their feet are pleasant, because of their message, and in this have power above ruling Elders, and those who serve Tables, Act. 6. and above the brethren and Church, as being sent of God with pastoral power, not onelyonly vi materiae, by vertue of their commands, but as in an Epistle is spoken judiciously to this purpose by Mr. Tho. Goodwyn and Mr. Philip Nye, by reason of M. Tho Goodwyn, Mr Phil. Nye, Epist. to the Reader prefixed to the treatise of the Keyes.their Ministerial Authority. Now how they can be equal in commission of judging to the people, is the question: for as the woman is independent in regard of intrinsecal power of consenting or dissenting in point of marriage, the Parents directive power of commanding extrinsecal, as the judicious Prefacers say, so the Fraternity is the onelyonly judging society by them. Yea, Mr. H. saith, The Elders are superiour to the fraternity or brethren (I would he had said to the sisters also) in office, rule, Pastors & ruling Elders are equal as touching power juridical, but as touching the power pastoral of the Keys of knowledge, they are not equal, but the pastor is above the otheract and exercise, and in managing the censures, are foreign, overseers, by Hen. 13. 17. How are leaders and overseers in the same managing of censures, equal in power, and not above those whom they lead and oversee, yea, to whom they are to yield obedience, as Mr. H. cites to that purpose the place Heb. 13. 17. are Parents equal in power who do command the Virgin, whose it is to consent to the marriage?
3. Let the godly Reader consider, whether the Brethren, though believers, yet ignorant of the mystery of Balaams doctrine, and of Iezobils teaching, Rev. 2. and of the learning and qualification of pastors, and of the deep and subtile Heresies for which pastors must be cast out, are by the Word of the Lord equal in judicial power, and trying of Doctors and Pastors, with the Rulers, whose office it is to know more of the minde of God, than Brethren? and whether are they by Divine Institution so?
Mr. H. If Rulers alone have power to excommunicate by Mat. Pag. 198, 199.18. then may three Elders excommunicate 400 or 500 brethren; and if so, Rulers should not onelyonly censure the fraternity, but destroy themselves: for where no flock is, but all are excommunicated, there are no shepherds. Besides, as Ames. saith, a body No Scripture for the judicial power of the male-Church, but Matth. 18. which is to M. H. a Church of redeemed men and women meeting in one place to partake of all the ordinances. M. Cott. Keys, c. 5. p. 22, 23. as Act. 19. 9. Exo. 33. 7. Mar. 6. 11. Act. 13. 46. D. Ames. de consc. l. 4. qu. 29. 11. 10. 25.cannot be cast out of it self.
Ans. 1. Observe in all these six Arguments, there is not one jot of Scripture, but the one Magna Charta of Mat. 18. where yet Mr. H. will not stand to the signification of the word Church.
2 They are not there alone to excommunicate the Church of believers, without the consent of the Church; and we judge it no way of Christ to excommunicate not 400 onelyonly, but six thousands, who all made one congregation of Ierusalem, say our Brethren: But Mr. Cotton saith well in the case of the defection of a congregation to blasphemy and persecution, and no help by a Synod is to be hoped for, the Elders may withdraw, and separate disciples from them, and carry away the Ordinances with them, and denounce judgement against them.
3. D. Ames. whose name is savoury in the Church of Christ, saith, But if a Church should be excommunicated, then a body having and retaining its essence, should be cast out of it self. No Judge can properly punish himself, but the Presbytery and Synod may declare a Synagogue of Satan to be a Synagogue of Satan.
4. It is against the meekness of Christ, and not warranted by any Scriptures, that faithful pastors that are pastors to the universal Church should be unpastored, because this or that particular flock to which they were sent, leave off to be the flock of Christ, that is as much, as because they are faithful in his house, Christ will have them cast out of his house. The argument will conclude, That the Church excommunicating all the officers, destroyeth it self. Of this before also.