Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 1 · Chapter 11 – Chapter 12
CHAP. XI.
Other arguments of Mr Hooker for the constitution of a Church of onelyonly visible Saints.
MAster Hooker, par. 1. ch. 2. pag. 25, 26. Whether fitnesse to be baptised be the visible conversion: regenerati… which M. H. requireth.Q. What is required of a man of years to fit him in the judgment of the Church, for baptisme, that and so much is required to make him a member.
But visible holiness is required to fit a man of years to be baptized.
The consequence admitteth no denial, because to be baptized, and to be admitted a member, infer each other.
The assumption is proved by the constant practise of John Baptist, Matth. 3. 5, 6. where Jerusalem, Judea, Scribes, people and souldiers came to be baptized of him, they confessed their sins, it was a confession that amounted to repentance; so John verse 7. bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and amendment of life.
Luke 3. 6. What shall we do? the Apostle answers, Acts 2. 38. repent and be baptized; the works of repentance and the aime of baptisme do import as much; remission of sins calleth for such competent knowledge of Christ, as may make way for the sight of the need of a Saviour, and also of a going to him.
Answ. This argument may pass current with these that deny Whether they were all to Iohn reall converts, whom Iohn baptized. See M. Can. Separa. p. 174. and the Ans. of M. Ball, sect. 2. p. 56, 57.Infant-baptisme, which Mr H. and his do not; but if to be baptized say that the baptized is a member of the Church, must not either the infants of Church-members be not baptized with them, and so no members of the Church, which is strange? or may I not argue thus with Anabaptists against Mr Hooker? What is required of a man of years to fit him for baptisme in the judgment of the Church, is also required to make him one within the covenant of grace. But onelyonly to be born of believing parents maketh a man of years in the judgment of the Church, to be within the covenant of grace.
Ergo, onelyonly to be born of visible parents maketh a man of years fit to be baptized.
The assumption is clear, because that God be our God and the God of our seed, Gen. 17. maketh both parents and children within the covenant, yea also within the visible Church, as the Church of New England truly teacheth, and giveth them right Answer to the 32 quest. p. 20.to baptisme; and when Egypt shall be the people of God, as is foretold, Isai. 19. 25. Egypt is the Church visible, and all their seed, when they so profess, except these two be different, to be professedly Gods people, and to be a visible Church, which cannot be said; and therefore the argument presupposeth a falshood, and beggeth the question: that there is one thing required of a man of years born within the visible Church, to fit him in the judgment of the Church for baptisme and Church-membership, and another to fit an infant for baptisme and Church-member-ship, when an infant born within the visible Church, by his birth is fitted both for Church-membership in the judgment of charity, and for baptisme; and so the argument proveth that the children of believing parents must have some new qualification before they can be received members of the Church visible; and yet it is granted their birth made them members of the Church visible; so they are members and not M. H. ascribeth to all whom Iohn baptised, and who are to be admitted visible members a confession of sinnes, such as amounted to the reall Repentance which Iohn commanded Mat. 3. See Anton. Wal. to. 2. de Baptis. Infan. p. 491. Daniel Chamiez Loc. Com. l. 7. o. 13. p. 210.members.
2. If to be baptized and to be admitteed members, infer each other, to Mr Hooker saith, ergo, all that are baptized are members of the visible Church, and all members of the visible Church must be baptized. How then doth the Churches of New England refuse multitudes whom they know to be baptized, and came from England to be Church-members? 3. See how Mr Hooker maketh out the assumption; to wit, from the constant course and practise of Iohn Baptist, Math. 3. 5, 6. in which he laieth this as a ground, that in all Iudea and Ierusalem (for Iohn baptized them all, Mark 10. 5.) there was no visible Church, no visible Saints, no converts till Iohn made them such by baptisme. I hold that Christ was born in the visible Church, and that Simon, Anna, Zachariah, Elizabeth, and many others were visible Church-members before Iohn baptized them, and that the Church of the Jews and of baptized Christians were both the same visible Church, the one believing professedly in him who was to come, the other in him who was already come.
2. He presumeth that by Iohns baptizing these were framed up in particular Independent congregations, by a Churchcovenant, for this is brought to prove the frame of visible Churches of New England by Mr Hooker: but how the text speaketh this, who can see, except Mr Hooker himself? for all Judea and Jerusalem were baptized, Mark 1. 5.
4: How proveth he that all the baptized were visible converts that came to Iohn?
Those that confessed their sins, by such a confession as Iohn required, to wit, which amounted to repentance, and bringing forth fruits worthy of amendment, these were visible converts, before they were baptized.
Yea say I, if the confession amounted so high in the practice of all Iudea, as the precept and command of Iohn required, then all the land of Iudea, Ierusalem, and all the region round about Ierusalem, who were all baptized, Matth. 3. 5, 6. Mark 1. 4, 5. all the people, Luke 4. 21. were not only visible saints, but did all really repent and bring forth fruits worthy amendment of life: for Mr. Hooker his argument is not from the peoples practice, but from Iohns command. Bring forth fruits &c. so Mr. Hooker. They confessed their sinnes, v. 6. it was such a confession as amounted to repentance; that I confesse is a sea of Charity to all the visible saints. Now hear how M. Hooker exponeth their practised confession, The Baptist so interprets is, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and amendment of life. Now sure Iohn commanded never such a confession, as Magus the witch made Act. 8. nor a visible repentance such as maketh a visible saint, but he commanded a reall internall repentance, otherwise saith he, if ye bring not forth good fruit, Matth. 3. ver. 10. see your doome, every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewen down and cast into the fire.
And therefore if the argument stand thus, such a confession … Iohn Baptist commandeth Matth. 3. 6, 7. such must be in all before Iohn Baptist and the Church can lawfully baptize them, or admit them to the visible Church, otherwise they sinne who baptise and receive into the visible Church visible hypocrites.
But Iohn Baptist requireth reall and internall repentance, without which the baptized should be cast into hell fire, Mat. 3. 10.
But the conclusion is so grosse, that Mr. Hooker could not dreame of it.
But the truth is, the precept of Repentance is not given to the Jewes, so as obedience thereunto must be necessarily required before Iohn Baptist can lawfully and without sinne admit them to baptism, and into the Christian visible Church, but for their either more personall and fruitfull receiving of the Sacrament, or farre rather, that they may be saved from the wrath to come, Matth. 3. 10. Luk. 3. 7, 8.
5. And as to that Act. 2. 38. what shall we doe? if it conclude any thing it must have this meaning, men and Brethren what shall we doe, before ye can owne us as visible saints, and baptize us without your hazard of casting pearles before swine? This is to doe violence to the word of God.
But these words (what shall we doe?) must be all one with the like of Saul, Act. 9. 6. and of the Jaylor, Act. 16. 30. what shall we doe to be saved and to obtaine life everlasting, and a due roome in the visible Church of grace here, and at length of glory? and it is clear that repentance which the Apostles command is the course of repentance all their life to be performed, both before and after baptisme, ver. 40. and with many other words did he testifie and exhort, saying, save your selves from this untoward generation, which is, walk not in the way of this people: and doth Peter advise no repentance, but such visible repentance as was to goe before their baptism? certain he adviseth repentance, new obedience and perseverance therein to their lives end after they should be baptised.
6. As to the ayme of baptism, which is for remission of sinnes, it importeth a confession such as amounteth to repentance reall and true, yea constant and induring to the end, Ergo they were None are to be baptized by M. H. his arguing, while they die, and consummate their course of Repentance.justified and effectually redeemed in Christ, and persevered therein to the end, before Iohn could baptise them without sinne: how weak are these? and so these huge multitudes were never baptized untill they all died reall converts, and that was never at all; for the Baptist so requires, before they were baptized.
7. Who shall believe that when Iohn baptized, Mark 5. all the land of Iudea, and all Ierusalem and Matth. 3 5. all Iudea, It is clear that Iohn Baptist had no such judgement of charity that all the multitude which he baptized were reall converts. Way of the Church of N. E. cap. 3. Sect. 3. p. 58. The Text is not clear Mat. 3. Mark 1. Luk. 3. that Iohn repelled from his Baptisme Saduces and Pharisees. Calvin. com. hoc modo omnes ad interius conscientiae examen citat ut se penitùs exentiant. M. H. complyeth with Papists for a particular confession, Mat. 3. Beza in Mat. 3. Hinc igitur apparet Iohannem non alios admisisse ad suum baptismum quàm qui gratuitae remissionis doctrinam … seriò amplecti testarentur. Pareus …n loc. Nec ad baptismum indignos admisit. Piscat. Mat. 3. Docu. 6 ex. v. 6. baptismus nulli adulto conferendus est, nisi prius ediderit confessionem peccatorum ac propterea promissionem sanctae vitae ex v. 6. Piscator in Mark 1. v. 5. Imo nequi quam probabile est Ioannem ex gisse confessionem publicam (talem enim edebant scelerum ocultorum Belarm. de sacra. poenitent. l. 3. c. 3. Rhemists on Mat. 3. v. 6. Annot. 3. Iac. Canteri Iesuita. in Tabul. Chronograph. sacr. ad an. 100. p. 133. Sect. 11.and all the region round about Iordan: and Luk. 4. 21. and all the people; that they were all in Iohn Baptist his judgment of charity, sound believers, and that all these brought forth fruits worthy of amendment of life? and that all these were pardoned and justified in Christ, and that they were the habitation of God through the spirit, as Ephes. 2. 22. when Iohn preacheth to them, even to the multitude that came forth to be baptized, Luk. 3. 7. and to many of the Pharisees and Sadduces as to a generation of vipers, Matth. 3. 7. 2. as to hypocrites that gloried they were Abrahams sons, and would think they were more then Gods sons, when they were now washen by baptisme, the new seale of the New Testament? 3. as to fruitlesse trees ready to be burnt in hell fire, ver. 10. 4. as to these washen with water by a man, not inwardly baptised by Christ ver. 11. 5. to a visible company in which there were wheat and chaff? certainly Iohn should break the bruised reed, if he preached not to them as to reall sons of Abraham, inwardly baptised, fruitfull trees, and wheat into the Lords barn. 8. Nor is there any warrant to think that they all asked, what shall we doe? and did all bring forth fruit worthy amendment, and that the Pharisees and Sadduces who came to be baptized, Matth. 3. 7. did bring forth such fruits, before Iohn could baptise them, Act. 2. they were baptized the same day: neither must that passe, which our brethren say, that Iohn repelled not only the Scribes and Pharises, Matth. 3. 7. but also the prophane people from baptism, as those who were a generation of vipers, and had not yet brought forth fruits meet for repentance, ver. 7, 8.
Ans. Let the Text speak, Mark 1. 5. And there went out unto him all the land of Iudea, and they of Ierusalem, and they foreign were all baptized. Matthew saith chap. 3. v. 7. And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadduoes come to his baptism, he said, Generation of vipers, who hath forewarned you to flee from the wrath to come? which argueth rather that he admitted them; but as Calvin well sayeth, he citeth them before the inner tribunal of their consci nce, that they may severely examine themselves, Luk. 3. 7. he said the same to all the multitude that came to be baptized, but especially to he Pharisees, but that Iohn refused to baptize them, there is not one word in the Text, but the contrary, Mark 1. 5. Luk 3. 2. Matth. 3. 3. I deny not, but Beza, Pareus, Piscator, on Matth. 4. say that Iohn admitted none to baptism but such as they judged worthy; but that such worthinesse was reall regeneration in the judgement of Iohn, no Divine sayeth. But withall Piscator sayeth on Mark, That Bellarmine hath no ground for auricular confession. It is not probable that Iohn sought a publick confession of secret sinnes. Now it is known, Mr. Hooker the book of Discipline of N. England requires farre beyond auricular confession. The Rhemists speak just almost in the language of M. H. confessing their sinnes, not acknowledging themselves in generall to be sinners, but also uttering every man his sinnes, M. H. They confessed their sinnes. ver. 6. it was such a confession as amounted to repentance. And their own words evidence as much. Luk. 3. 5, 6. What shall we doe? if it was such a repentance as Iohn commanded; and such it was (sayeth M. H.) Then it was reall and constant, enduring to the end. And this is more charity bestowed upon Iudea, then the Iesuites of Rhemes give them; for they are content to stay within a precept (M. H. sayeth all Iudea repented) He preacheth repentance (say they) by doing worthy fruits or works of penance. Now M. H. must make this confession, if it amounted to repentance, most particular of all and every one of them, which D. Fulke sayeth was impossible; and Cartwright, that it was common not full, and proveth it by many arguments: and sure, that multitude must have lived upon locusts and wild honey, that Iohn might have been satisfied with their spirituall good estate as lively stones, as our brethren speak, our brethrens confession must have as long a space, to wit, seven yeares, as D. Fulke sayeth anricular confession would have taken.
Some bring the place Luk. 7. 29. to prove that Iohn refused Annot. 4. D. Fulks ans. to to the Rhemists Mat. 3. 6. If generall confession was not sufficient, but every man must utter all his sinnes in particular, Iohn had shriving work enough for seven years to heare the confession of Ierusalem and all Iurie and all the country about Ierusalem. O Papists blush! Cartwright against Rhemists on the place pag. 13. Way of the Churches of N. E. ch. 1. Sect. 2. part. 7. Ans. to the 32. questions quest. 8. part. 23. The place for baptizing Luk. 7. 27. and Act. 8. cleared, of the Pharisees and of the Eunuch.to admit the Pharisees to baptism.
But that place sayeth it was their sinne who would not be baptized, and so despised the counsel of God, whereas the Publicans glorified God, being baptized with the baptism of Iohn, ver. 29, 30. as Calvin well observeth, comparing the Publicans and Pharisees together. See Diod…ti and the English Divines; for it is not holden forth as their punishment, that Iohn debarred them as unworthy. Yea all that came to be baptized, Mat. 3. Mark 1. Luk. 3. were baptized. Nor is it of weight, that Philip sayeth, Act. 8. Thou mayest be, foreign, be baptized, if thou wilt, so the word noteth, Matth. 12. 24. ver. 10. 12. Matth. 14. 4. Matth. 19. Matth. 20. 15. Matth. 22. 17. Matth. 27. 6. Mark. 2. 24. ver. 26. Luk. 6. 2. Ioh. 6. 9. foreign. Ioh. 5. 10. Ioh. 18 31. There is no shadow, in the Text, that the lawfulnesse is referred to Philip his act of baptizing, as if Philip might without sinne baptize; as if I should say, I Philip cannot lawfully baptize thee except them believe with all the heart; but it is clearly referred to the Eunuches believing. For 1. Philip had more ground of the soundnesse of the Eunuches profession so as he might lawfully have baptized him, then he had to baptize Magus; finding the holy Ghost had directed Philip to goe to him, Act. 8. 29, 30. 2. He found him reading Scripture, and desirous to know the meaning of it, 36. and destrous to be baptized (3.) There is no shadow of reason in the Text, that it was a case of conscience to the Ennuch, whether it was Philips sinne to baptize him, except he knew he had true faith; but clearly he himself doubted whether he might be baptized, or not, 3. Philip requireth of the Eunuch reall believing with all the heart; but visible believing as Magus had, was sufficient for Philip to baptize without sinne in the baptizer.
Quest. What ignorance exoludeth from Church membership?
M. H. That ignorance which maketh persons to be no Church, Par. 1. p. 26.that will hinder a person from being a member. But there is a simple ignorance of points fundamentall, that maketh Papists that never heard the Gospell, and so have not wilfully rejected it (sayeth M. R.) to be no members of the Church.
A…s…, M. H. To be admitted a member and to be baptized (sayeth What ignorance excludeth from Church-membership.he pag. 20.) inferreth each one another. But all the members of the Church of Rome (sayeth he par. 1. c. 5. pag. 59) have received true Baptisme. Let M. H. answer M. H. 2. That ignorance that hindereth persons to be no Church visibly professing, will hinder persons to be true members of the visible professing Church. The proposition is denyed; for infants (sayth Calvin) baptized are so ignorant, and they are admitted members (say our brethren) in and with Calvin. Com. Act. 8. Ans. to 32 quest. q. 20.their parents, 3. M. R. speaketh of the visible Church, of which Papists ignorant of fundamentalls, are not members.
CHAP. XII.
How profession doth notifie conversion.
Mr. H. That profession which must notifie to the Church, that a person is a true believer, that must notifie that he hath Par. 1. pag. 26527.true grace. But the profession that M. R requireth, must notifie to the Church that he is a true believer, pag. 196. Faith giveth right to the seales; profession, to speake acu…ately, doth only notifie to the Church that the man hath right to the seales. So M. R.
Ans. What is in question to M. R. it is one thing to be a M. R. never said that profession must notifie to the Church the person is a true believer before he can be admitted a Church-member, as M. H. would impute to him.Church-member, as infants and fixed hearers are; and another thing to be by profession, capable of both the seales: the latter are such determinate Church-members, or Church-members in speciall, but all members are not capable of both seales.
2. The profession that M. R. requireth doth notifie, M. R. said not, Faith must notifie to the Church that a person is a true believer, before he can be admitted a member of the Church by the Church. And that is the question now. Not what profession doth notifie simply; but what it must notifie to the Church before the Church can lawfully admit them to be members. M. R. never said that; nor sayeth M. R. That not every profession, but that which is apparently true doth notifie so much, and that which is only savoury to the godly. 2. As also M. H. addeth to my words, the adjective, True, which is not in my words; yea I teach that the profession of Demas, Magus, doth not notifie that they are true believers: And though visible profession should notifie true faith, it is not necessary that it must offer to judicious charity such overweighing evidences as the Church cannot lawfully admit Magus a member, but they must first positively judge him a reall convert; and the like Iohn must judge of all Iury whom he baptized. 3. Since M. H speaketh of admission to the seales in the plurall number, he must mean both the seales; Hence let this quaere be answered by our brethren, whether they think that profession doth notifie to a charitable M. H. must be to near to that all infants born of their visible Saints must be reall converts.judgement that all infants of Church-members, because born of Church-members, are reall converts. If so, birth must give conversion, and David must give to Absalom conversion by birth. 2. All infants so born must be regenerate; but experience and Scriptures teach that many so born turn Apostates, and prove sonnes of perdition. How our brethren shall free themselves of some baptismall regeneration, and of the apostacy of the justified and truly sanctified, let them consider, and the sound Reader judge; for our brethren tell us, it is not lawfull to put the seale upon a blank.