Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist — Simon Patrick

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist · Simon Patrick

A Friendly Debate BETWEEN A Conformiſt, and a Non-Conformiſt.

Conf.

GOod morrow, Neighbour: I am very glad to ſee you, and you are welcome home.

Non-Conf.

I thank you kindly: But I do not underſtand your Salutation, not having been from home this twelvemoneth.

No? what's the reaſon then that we have not ſeen you at Church of late?

N. C.

I believe you did not ſee me: but I …ſſure you the Church never wants my company.

How can that be? Are you there, as the Angels are, after an inviſible manner?

N. C.

Piſh! you do not apprehend me. Do you take your houſe of ſtone to be a Church?

Yes indeed do I: and (as I have been inform'd by them that know it) it is more properly called ſo, than your Aſſemblies. For the Engliſh word Church, Originally ſignifies an houſe of the Lord for Chriſtians to worſhip in; as I have been told by your Miniſter.

N. C.

Miniſter? he may be the Kings Miniſter, perhaps, but he is none of Chriſt's.

My good neighbour, do not grow warm ſo ſoon; for you and I muſt have a great deal o… Diſcourſe together. Pray walk in here to my houſe.

N. C.

Well, what have to ſay for your Miniſter?

This I ſay, that he is both the Kings's Miniſter and Chriſt's alſo: whereas I have reaſon to fear he whom you follow is neither.

N. C.

Fare you well.

Nay, ſtay a little, and hear me out. How can he be the Miniſter of Chriſt, who is diſobedient to his Sovereign, whom Chriſt bids him obey?

N. C.

Diſobedient? Yes, in thoſe things which Chriſt hath forbidden him to do. And therein I hope you will be content he ſhould obey God rather than man.

I knew this would be your anſwer. But, what if I prove that he is diſobedient even there where Chriſt and his Laws are not at all concern'd?

N. C.

You cannot do it.

Why, what Law of Chriſt is there that requires him to live in London, or at leaſt within five miles of it?

N. C.

None that I know.

But the Law of the Land forbids him to live in this place, or within ſuch a diſtance. And yet notwithſtanding he lives here in defiance of that Law (which you confeſs is not contrary to Chriſt's. And being here, he lives alſo in the breach of a great many other Laws.

N. C.

That was a Tyrannical Law.

Very good. But it is not repugnant, you are convinced, to the Commands of Chriſt; and therefore he is not a good Subject, and conſequently not a good Chriſtian; much leſs ſuch a perſon, as a Miniſter of Chriſt ought to be.

N. C.

Would not you think it hard to be ſo abridg'd of your liberty?

Yes, without doubt. But, if we muſt never ſubmit to ſuch things, as we count harſh and rigorous, then farewel all the Doctrine of Chriſt concerning to king up our croſs, and ſuffering patiently, &c. Which Doctrines, if you had ſtudied, you would not have uttered ſuch a word as implies the King to be a Tyrant.

N. C.

Pray pardon me that raſhneſs.

I do moſt readily, and hope you ask God pardon for this, and all other your raſh words and actions. But that I may a little further convince you of that we were ſpeaking of; I beſeech you tell me, what Law of Chriſt is there that enjoyns him whom you follow to hold his Aſſemblies juſt then, when the publick Service of God, eſtabliſhed by Law, begins? Is not this ſufficient to convince any unprejudiced man, that he is not content to enjoy his own way of worſhipping God, but he would alſo deſtroy ours? That is, not only to act contrary to a Law… but to endeavour to ſubvert what is enacted by it? Elſe, why might it not ſuffice him to begin when the publick Service is done;

N. C.

For that I cannot tell what to ſay.

Then I can make an anſwer for you. Your Miniſter is afraid, leſt any of you ſhould go to Church, and like our Miniſter ſo well, that you ſhould think there is no need of him.

N. C.

Away, away! There is no danger o… that. He ſo far excels yours, that if we ſhould come to hear him, it would onelyonly make us like our own the better.

Wherein (I pray you) doth this excellency conſiſt?

N. C.

O Sir, he is a very powerful man Yours is a meer Dr. Dulman in compare with him.

What do you mean? that he hath a louder voice, that he is more vehement, and lay… about him more than ours? Or what is it? If yo… take him to be powerful, who preſſes his Doctrine with ſtrong and powerful reaſons, ſuch as we cannot gainſay or reſiſt; I believe our Miniſter will prove the more powerful of the two.

N. C.

It may be ſo. I have heard indeed tha… he is a man of Reaſon: but what is that to the Demonſtration of the Spirit, and of power?

True: there is no compare between theſe. But hath your Miniſter that Demonſtration of the Spirit and of Power?

N. C.

Yes ſure, if ever any man had.

That's good news; for then we ſhall ſee that which before we only believed. Hath he the gifts of the Holy Goſt? Can he ſpeak with Tongues, and Propheſie, and work Miracles, and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts?

N. C.

What do you mean?

I mean that which the Apoſtle Saint Paul meant, who had this Demonſtration of the Sipirit, and of Power; which he gave the world, to convince them that Jeſus was riſen from the dead, and was made Lord of all, whom they were therefore bound to obey.

N. C.

But I mean ſomething elſe.

Pray tell me what that is. Only let me deſire you not to uſe words, without the ſenſe belonging to them; and to intreat your Miniſter, that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may ſpeak in the Demonſtration of the Spirit, and of Power; for no body now can hope to do it.

N. C.

I mean, that he is ſpiritually enlightned to ſearch the deep things of the Spirit of God, which the natural man cannot diſcern.

I wonder at you, that you ſhould not diſcern the Apoſtle there ſpeaks of the Holy Ghoſt (i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it) in them, which …ſſured them of thoſe things that no meer natural Reaſon could prove. I doubt your Miniſter is not ſpiritually enlightned, becauſe he doth not inſtruct you better in the Scriptures.

N. C.

Scriptures? He never ſays … but he quotes a place of Scripture for it. … Sermons are nothing elſe: whereas you … but Rational Diſcourſes.

I remember I have heard a wiſe man ſay that one may talk nothing but Scripture, and ye… ſpeak never a wiſe word. And I verily believe it; for it is not the Word of God when we miſtake its ſenſe, as you commonly do.

N. C.

Doth yours do any better?

Yes: he ſeems to me to make it his buſineſs to let us into the meaning of the holy Book. And he backs his Reaſon, not with phraſes ſnatch'd from thence, but with ſuch place as manifeſtly ſpeak the ſame ſenſe that he doth.

N. C.

I have heard him ſometimes endeavou… to open the Scripture, but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way, but onelyonly Rationally.

My good Neighbour, conſider what yo… ſay. Do you think that theſe two words, Spiritua… and Rational are oppoſed the one to the other If they be, then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and abſurdly.

N. C.

No, pardon me there. I do not think thoſe two are oppoſite; but Carnal Reaſon is oppoſite to the Spirit.

To ſpeak properly, you ſhould ſay that Carnal Reaſon is oppoſite to Spiritual Reaſon▪ That is, a Reaſon that is guided by Fleſhly luſts …s oppoſite to that which is guided by the Goſpel of Chriſt.

Ns. C.

I ſay, as I ſaid before, it is oppoſite to the Spirit.

You muſt either mean as I do; or elſe that it is oppoſite to the Goſpel, which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture. But, pray tell me, how ſhall we underſtand the Goſpel, by our Reaſon, or by ſomething elſe?

Ns C.

By the Spirit.

What, muſt we have an immediate Revelation to make us underſtand its ſenſe? or muſt we ſtudy and conſider, and lay things together, and ſo come to know its meaning?

N. C.

Yes, we muſt give our minds to it, and then the Spirit enlightens us.

That is, it guides us to reaſon, and diſcourſe, and judge aright. Is not that it you mean?

N. C.

No; I mean it ſhines into our minds with its light.

Theſe are phraſes which I would have you explain if you can. My Queſtion is this, Doth the Spirit ſhew as any new thing, which is not the concluſion of the Reaſonings and Diſcourſes in our minds about the Senſe of Scripture?

N. C.

I cannot ſay it doth.

Then you confeſs that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way; we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in diſtinction from the other, viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghoſt, which the Apoſtles had.

N.C.

Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual.

That is, you are prejudiced: or elſe you phanſie every thing that you do not underſtand to be Spiritual.

N.C.

No, not ſo: but the manner of underſtanding the things of God, methinks, ſhould be other than you conceive.

Truly, if you have any other manner of underſtanding beſides this, and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghoſt; I conclude you take the ſudden (and many times pretty) ſuggeſtions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above.

N.C.

Now you have hit on ſomething that I would have ſaid: The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind.

How know you that? Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how, to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghoſt?

N.C.

No, I dare not ſay ſo.

Then you examine it, and conſider whether it be rational and coherent, or no.

N.C.

Yes.

Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatſoever you think of us, we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds, and repreſents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reaſonings: which is as much as to ſay, that it lets us ſee the reaſonableneſs and aptneſs of ſuch a Senſe (for inſtance) of the Divine Writings as we diſcerned not before.

N.C.

Well, I am glad to hear you ſpeak ſo much of the Spirit.

You might hear ten times as much, if you would but frequent our Aſſemblies. For there we are conſtantly taught, that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jeſus Chriſt is the Spirit, i.e. the Holy Ghoſt ſent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apoſtles.

N.C.

You mix ſo much of Reaſon with what you ſay, that I am afraid you are not in the right.

You ſhould rather conclude the contrary, and not believe any thing but what you have a good reaſon for.

N.C.

Say you ſo? How then ſhall I believe that Jeſus Chriſt is the Son of God? Can Reaſon tell me this?

I am ſorry to ſee you ſo ill inſtructed. If you had continued to hear our Miniſter, he would have made you underſtand before this time, that though our reaſon could not find out that Truth, yet God hath given us the higheſt reaſon to believe it. And this I told you is the Spirit; the Spirit in Chriſt and in his Apoſtles.

N.C.

Pray explain your meaning, for I underſtand not theſe new Notions.

The Holy Ghoſt (I mean) deſcended on our Saviour at his Baptiſm, with a voice from Heaven, ſaying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleaſed. This is one reaſon we have to believe on him. Then he wrought miracles by the power of this Spirit; and though he was killed, yet he was raiſed again from the dead by it; and after that he ſent the Spirit upon his Apoſtles, who thereby demonſtrated that he was the Son of God with power. Which are all reaſons for my belief; and if you have any other I would gladly hear them, or know whether you believe without any Reaſon at all.

N.C.

Theſe are Spiritual Reaſons.

I like your Language very well: only remember that theſe are the Divineſt Reaſons which cannot be reſiſted. For thus our mind argues with it ſelf: That which God teſtified by voices from Heaven, and by a world of Miracles, is to be believed; that Jeſus is his Son, he did in this manner teſtifie; therefore we are to believe that he is God's Son.

N.C.

Who taught you to reaſon on this faſhion?

Is this ſuch a mighty buſineſs, that you wonder at? We are taught continually to give our ſelves theſe reaſons, why we ſhould believe: And methinks it is the moſt powerful preaching in the world. For, if I believe firmly that Jeſus is the Son of God, is riſen from the dead, and will come to judg the world; how can I chuſe but obey him with great care and conſtancy?

N.C.

You ſay true. But me thinks there is more Spiritual Preaching than this.

What ſhould that be?

N.C.

To preach the great Miſteries of the Goſpel.

Is not this the firſt great Myſtery of Godlineſs, God manifeſted in the fleſh? (1 Tim. 3.16.) and is not this the next, that he was juſtified in, or, by the Spirit; which we give as a proof that he was manifeſted in the fleſh? Read the reſt, and then come and hear our Miniſter, and you ſhall find them a I unfolded one time or other in a plain and ample manner.

N.C.

Theſe methinks are no ſuch great Myſteries.

No? ſure you know not the meaning of the word Myſtery, but live onelyonly upon phraſes. Was not this a Secret kept in the breaſt of God from ages and generations?

N.C.

Yes.

Then it is a Myſtery, and the chief and firſt of all. That God hath ſent his Son into the World. As for the ends of his ſending him; if thoſe be they you call Myſteries, they are as much declared among us, as among you; and perhaps a great deal more.

N.C.

What do you mean?

I mean, his dying for our Sins, and riſing again for our Juſtification, and Interceſſion on our behalf at God's right hand. I dare ſay theſe are as well opened to us, as ever they have been to you.

N.C.

I am glad to hear it; for I alwayes thought there was little but Legal Preaching among you.

You mean, we are taught to obey the Commands of Chriſt.

N.C.

No: the Doctrine of Good works is always ſounding from your Pulpits.

Theſe are the ſame thing: for no other Works are taught us, but ſuch as Chriſt injoyns. As for the Works of Moſes his Law, we never hear of them, but only that they do no longer oblige us. If we did, I aſſure you we ſhould call our Preachers Legal as much as you can do.

N.C.

But I am afraid the inſiſting ſo much upon Good works, is Legal.

You ſhould rather fear that the Preaching of them ſo little, leads men to Libertiniſm.

N.C.

We are tender leaſt the Grace of God ſhould be impeached, by putting men ſo much upon Doing.

Then, it ſeems, you think it peculiar to the Spirit of the Law, to be very ſollicitous about Doing well.

N.C.

Yes.

Now I ſee you are in very groſs darkneſs. For certainly both the Law and the Goſpel put men upon doing; but not the ſame things, nor with the ſame diſpoſition.

N.C.

Explain your ſelf; for methinks you are in the dark.

The Goſpel give us better rules of life, and gives us power to do according to them with a more willing and chearful mind, than the Law did.

N.C.

Where then is grace all this while?

It was the Grace of God that gave us the Goſpel; and it is his Grace that accepts of our repentance and obedience after we have offended him; which pardons alſo, and paſſes by our failings and imperfections, when we ſincerely deſign and ſtudy to obey him in all things.

N.C.

You do not think then that you can deſerve any thing of him.

No: how ſhould we, ſeeing we are his Creatures, and owe him all the Service we can do him? Which makes us believe, that if we had been born in innocence, and continued ſo till this time, we could have merited nothing; much leſs can we pretend to it, now that we are Sinners.

N.C.

But you think Good works are neceſſary to our Juſtification.

Who ever doubted of it that underſtood himſelf?

N.C.

That doth many a Godly Divine; whom I have heard ſay, that they are not requiſite to our Juſtification, but only to our Salvation.

I am loath to ſay, that thoſe Godly Divines did not mind what they ſaid, becauſe I ought in modeſty to ſuſpect my own Underſtanding, rather than theirs: But to me it ſeems a ſtrange thing, that they ſhould not obſerve Salvation to be nothing elſe but our final and abſolute juſtification at the day of Judgment. And then I am ſure our Saviour ſaith he will examine what men have done; and according as he finds it good or bad, pronounce the ſentence of Abſolution or Condemnation. Read the 25. of S. Matthew, from the 31. verſe to the end.

N.C.

What do you conclude from thence?

What? That if good works be neceſſary to our Juſtification then when we come before the Judge; they are neceſſary now to the beginning of our Juſtification, or (if you would have me ſpeak other words) to enter us into the ſtate of Juſtified perſons.

N.C.

How can that be, ſince we are juſtified by Faith only?

Very well. For it is not an idle ineffectual Faith which juſtifies us; but that which works by love to our Saviour: and love is the keeping of his Commandements.

N.C.

I ſee one ſhall not want rational diſcourſe at your Church (as you call it:) but methinks I nevr found that life and power in your Miniſtry which I have in ours.

I told you before, that I find nothing ſo powerful as the Chriſtian Doctrine rationally handled. And if the Faith of Chriſt be not ſo preached as I now told you, for my part I feel no force in the loudeſt words that I hear; but am apt to ſay as the man did when he ſhear'd his Hogs, Here is a great deal of noiſe, and little wool.

N.C.

My meaning was, That ours move my affections very much, and yours ſtir them not at all.

I have been taught, that there are two wayes to come at the Affections: One by the Senſes and Imagination; and ſo we ſee people mightily affected with a Puppet-play, with a Beggar's tone, with a lamentable Look, or any thing of like nature. The other is, by the Reaſon and Judgment, when the evidence of any Truth convincing the Mind, engages the affections to its ſide, and makes them move according to its direction. Now, I believe your Affections are moved in the firſt way very often; by melting Tones, pretty Similitudes, riming Sentences, kind and loving Smiles, and ſometimes diſmally ſad Looks; beſides ſeveral Actions or Geſtures which are very taking. And the truth is, you are like to be moved very ſeldom in our Churches by theſe means. For the better ſort of Hearers are now out of love with theſe things: nor do they think there is any power either in a puling and whining, or in roaring and tearing voice. But if you can be moved by ſuch ſtrength of reaſon, as can conquer the Judgment, and ſo paſs to demand ſubmiſſion from the Affection; you may find power enough (I think) in our Pulpits. And let me tell you, the Paſſions thus excited differ as much from the other, as the motions of a Man do from them of a Beaſt, if not more. For one may be affected, whether he will or no by Objects of Senſe: but Reaſon convinces and moves us by ſober conſideration, and laying things ſeriouſly to heart. And I wiſh heartily you would examine whether the cauſe why you was no more affected with our preaching, was not this, That you took no pains with your ſelf; i. e. you would not be a Man, but was contented to be moved in Religion like a meer Puppet, whoſe motions depend upon the power of other Agents, and not its own.

N.C.

You need not have made ſo long a diſcourſe in this buſineſs; for when you have ſaid as much as you are able, I can anſwer all in a few words: Aſſuring you that I am moved with the things they ſay; for I think they are the moſt ſoul-ſearching Preachers in the world.

It is an hard matter to underſtand your Phraſes. If you mean ſuch Phreachers, whoſe Doctrine touches the Conſcience, letting men ſee their duty and their ſins plainly; I think none are to be preferr'd before ours.

N.C.

Pray, Sir, conſider what you ſay.

What I have ſaid, I ſay again. And I muſt add, that I have cauſe to believe ſome of you have left our Congregation, becauſe the good man's Doctrine ſearched into you too far, and came too near the quick.

N.C.

I underſtand you not.

Have you never heard any man ſay, that he would come no more to Church, becauſe his Miniſter ript up his ſins of Disobedience to Gover…ours, Faction, Rebellion, Reviling Superiours, …aſh Cenſuring and judging their actions, immodeſt and malapert Diſputing with Spiritual Inſtructors, Meddling with other mens matter, Gadding from houſe to houſe, to hear or tell news, if not to talk againſt the Court and Church; with other ſuch like things that are too common, but not commonly reproved?

N.C.

Yes, I cannot deny it.

Then no doubt he ſearch'd to the bottom of that man's heart; who finding himſelf wounded, inſtead of ſeeking for a Cure, kick'd at him that ſhot the arrow, and flung dirt in his face; calling him Railer and Reviler, when he only told him the plain truth.

N.C.

You are angry.

No truely, I am only deſirous you ſhould underſtand things nakedly, as they are in themſelves.

N.C.

Do you think that our Miniſters do not inform their Auditors of the danger of theſe ſins?

If they did, I believe they would have fewer come to hear them.

N. C.

You are uncharitable.

No ſuch matter. I know many of thoſe that flock to them are not able to bear ſuch Doctrine. But they call thoſe plain and ſearching Preachers, that rip up other mens faults, and that diſcover to them ſome kind of ſins, which they have heard the Godly moſt bewail and complain of: for inſtance, Deadneſs of heart in duty, Spiritual pride, and unprofitableneſs under Ordinances, though ſo powerfully adminiſtred.

N. C.

Well; and are not theſe home… truths?

But I doubt many of thoſe you call Godly are troubled with other diſeaſes, which had need be look'd narrowly after. And beſides, me think… your Miniſters do too plainly commend themſelves, when they tell you what powerful Ordinances you live under, and how you are fed wit… a feaſt of Fat things; whilſt other poor Soul are even ſtarv'd in other Congregations; mean in a ſuch as ours.

N. C.

You might as well ſay that they commend us, when they caution us ſo much again… Spiritual pride.

You are in the right. It doth too palpabl… ſuppoſe you to be endowed with great gifts and ſo is apt to put you into a high conceit o… your ſelves, notwithſtanding all their cautio… againſt it. And therefore my opinion is, that they had better teach you all your duty; and then finding how ſhort you are of Perfection, that will be a more effectual means to keep you humble, than all their Declamations againſt Spiritual Pride.

They do tell us our duty. And I aſſure you ſome preach even againſt thoſe ſins which you ſay we do not love to hear of.

I'l take your word for it. But they are rare men, and they do it rarely. I could tell you alſo of one, that doing thus, was forbid by his Auditors to proceed, if he intended to have their company.

N. C.

Methinks you ſhould not ſuſpect any of them to be guilty of negligence in theſe matters: Do you not take them for conſcientious and good men?

Yes truly, I think there are many good men amongſt them. But, to deal plainly with you, I look upon moſt of them as very imperfect and in a lower form of goodneſs.

N. C.

Strange! What reaſon have you for this?

They do not govern their Paſſions, nor reverence their Governours nor Elders, nor fear to make a Schiſm in the Church; being furiouſly bent to follow their own fancies, impatient of Contradiction, conceited of their own Gifts, too ready to comply with the Peoples follies, and to humor them with new and affected phraſes; nay, to gratifie their rudeneſs with moſt unſavoury, clowniſh and undecent expreſſions, not only in their preaching, but in their Prayers. And eſpecially they ſeem to me to have little and narrow ſpirits, wanting that great Charity which our Saviour commends, and confining Godlineſs to a ſmal Sect and Party.

N. C.

O Sir, how much are you out of the way▪ If they were not the beſt men in the world, they could never come ſo cloſe to us in their Preaching, and ſearch the very Heart, as we find they do.

Now that you repeat this again, you force me to tel you that, which otherwiſe I would have concealed.

N. C.

What's that.

That if we may judge of the Sermons you hear by thoſe we ſee in print; I think many o… them are ſo far from ſearching into the Conſcience, that they rather dally and play with men… childiſh phanſies.

N. C.

Are you in good earneſt?

Why ſhould you make a doubt of it? Yo… know I do not uſe to jeſt.

N. C.

I do not believe you can give me on… inſtance of any ſuch thing.

Yes but I can, and more than one. What d… you think of the Doctrine of Repentance? Is the… any thing deſerves to be more gravely handled or can one ever expect to be pierc'd & wound… by that Preacher; who treating of that argument doth not touch the Soul in a lively manner?

N. C.

I acknowledge it is a moſt weighty Doctrine: but what then?

I'll tell you, I never met with any Treatiſe (in ſo ſerious a ſubject) more light and toying, than a Book which came lately out of the Preſs, called The Doctrine of Repentance, uſeful for theſe times, by T. W.

N. C.

You are prejudiced.

I doubt you are; and yet I believe I ſhall make you of my mind. Look you; here is the book, which one lent me. What think you of the very beginning of the Epiſtle to the Reader? Faith and Repentance are the two wings by which we fly to Heaven. Doth not this look like a School-boyes phraſe, which he applies to every Subject? For at another time T. W. would tell you, That Prayer and Meditation are the two wings whereby we fly to Heaven. Now as for Repentance, he tells you preſently it is a Purgative, and bids you not fear the working of this Pill. That …oiſt tears dry up the rheums of ſin, and quench the …rath of God.

N. C.

Let the Epiſtle alone, and go into the body of the Book: there you will find it more powerful.

Truly I have not read it over; but I open…d it in ſeveral places, and I met only with a …ngle there, where I expected a clap of thun…er.

N. C.

That's becauſe you had not a fancy to it.

I aſſure you I brought an indifferent mind to it, being glad if good things be ſaid by any body. But I could not but be diſguſted when I read this, page 16. That holy Sorrow is the Rhularb to purge out the ill humours of the Soul, &c.

N. C.

You take little bitts, and mind not his continued diſcourſe.

Read then what he ſaith of an Hypocrite, pag. 89.90. and you will think you are reading one of Blunt's Characters, if you ever ſaw that B…ok. I expected to have found him cut up and anatomiz'd; whereas in truth he doth but ſtroke h…m, and play with him. For thus he ſays; The Hypocrite is a Saint in jeſt; he makes a majeſticck ſhew, like an Ape cloathed in Ermine or Purple. The Hypocrite is like an Houſe with a beautiful Fr…ntiſpiece, but every Room within is dark: …e is a rotten P…ſt fairly gilded. Under his mask of Profeſſion he hides his Plague… ſones. The Hypocrite is againſt painting of Fa…s, but he paint… HOlineſs: he is ſeemingly good, that he may be really b…d. In Samuel's Mantle he plays the Devil therefore the ſame word in the Original ſignifies to uſe Hypocriſie, and to be prophane. But at thi… preſent we will let the reſt alone, and only obſ…rve how he concludes what he ſays of him Hypocrites are far g…ne with the Rot, and if an… thing will cure them, it muſt be feeding upon the ſa… Marſhes of Repentance.

N. C.

Why do you look me ſo in the face?

To ſee if you did not ſmile; as ſure you would do, were you not angry with me for laying open this Childiſhneſs. Nay, do not frown. I appeal to your Conſcience, whether you feel any more force in ſuch words as theſe, than in a Feather, blown with a great blaſt againſt your face, or in a Straw truſt with a ſtrong arm againſt your Breaſt.

N. C.

I cannot commend them; but you ought not to examine Books (writ with a good intention) ſo ſeverely.

I am far from that humor, and have only exerciſed a little of that liberty which he gives us in the ſecond page of his Epiſtle; where he tells us, He thought to have ſmothered theſe Meditations in his Desk, but conceiving them of great concern at this time, he reſcinded that firſt reſolution, and expoſed them to a critical view. Now if I had a mind to play the Critick, as ſimple as you think me, I could ſhew you that he ought to have expoſed them only to the view of his very good Friends, and not to Criticks.

N. C.

That was only a careleſs word.

Being one of his friends, I am willing to believe ſo; elſe I ſhould have thought it an affectation of a fine expreſſion.

N. C.

I wiſh you had never ſeen the Book.

So do I wiſh too, provided no body elſe had ſeen it. But pray be not troubled, nor interpret this as any diſreſpect to him; for I ſhould not have given notice of any of theſe things to you, but that you would needs make Compariſons, which are alwayes odious. And you may make a good uſe of this freedom which I take: for I perſwade my ſelf, if you would but compare ſome of our Books, which you deſpiſe, with this now mention'd, you would find there is as much difference between the jingling and rimeing of this and their ſolid ſenſe, as between the noiſe of a Jews-trump, or Bag-pipe, and the grave ſound of an Organ.

N. C.

But have not your men that quibble, and hunt after little Sentences and fine Words, like him whom you condemn?

I had no intention to deny that; but only to ſhew that there is trifling every where. And therfore that you ought not to be ſo partially affected to all your own, and ſo unequal to all ours.

N. C.

What's one to ſo many, as are among you, whoſe Books alſo are licenſed to paſs the Preſs?

To anſwer the laſt in the firſt place: I can tell you upon my own knowledge, that ſuch ſimple Books have been rejected; and if any of them have chanced to paſs, you ſhall ſeldom find the Preface of ſome other grave Divine, much leſs of three or four Divines of note, ſet before in commendation of it.

N. C.

Why? no more hath that, you have been ſpeaking of.

True; but no doubt he might have had thoſe Ornaments, if he had pleaſed: For I have ſeen many pitiful Books that have had great Commendations prefixed. And as the Dunghilcocks have the largeſt Combs; ſo commonly the meaneſt Books are ſet off with the largeſt Praiſes.

N. C.

I perceive you ſtill perſiſt in your confidence, that you know more Books of this nature.

Yes: But I do not delight to muſter up all the folly that is in Print; and therefore ſhall only take notice of one Book more, writ in another way; and (if you pleaſe) try whether it deſerve the Commendation which the Preface beſtows upon it.

N. C.

What Book is that?

It is called Chriſt and the Covenant, &c. in ten Sermons, by W. B. which pretends to be full of Myſteries; and, as we are told in the Epiſtle to the Reader, gives us the very marrow and quinteſſence of the Goſpel. Upon which account he exhorts us to buy it, and makes us believe it is worth any money.

N. C.

And you bought it.

No, I did not think it worth any thing, when I had once peruſed a little of it.

N. C.

What part did you peruſe?

I thought that the Marrow I was told of might be found (if any where) in that Diſcourſe which he calls the Way and Spirit of the New Teſtament. But as far as I examin'd it, I met with nothing but a great many bones to pick, and they had little or nothing on them.

N. C.

Pray forbear this merriment; and let us ſeriouſly conſider what he ſaith.

That's my deſire. And for your ſatisfaction read that part where he tells us, what the way of the Old Teſtament was, and what the way of the New is. I believe I ſhall convince you, that he is not only out of the true way, but alſo deſcribes his own way after a poor and wretched manner.

N. C.

Be not ſo earneſt.

He tells us in the firſt place, That the Old Teſtament Legal ſpirit ſerves God upon the account of Rewards moſtly, or chiefly, or only: But the New Teſtament ſpirit doth not. Whereas there is nothing plainer, than that Rewards are propounded in both Covenants to encourage our duty. And the Goſpel urges us ſo frequently with the conſideration of the rewards it promiſes, that I queſtion not but he that hath them always in his mind, and ſerves our Lord Chriſt out of thoſe hopes, as his chief motive, pleaſes him very well. For the true difference between the Covenants is not, that the one ſets rewards before men, and the other not; but, that the old Covenant made with the Jews propounded Temporal Rewards and the Goſpel propounds Eternal; which ar… as often repeated in the Goſpel as the other it the Law. And therefore he hath diſcovered … New-nothiing, when he ſaith, that to ſerve Go… for Rewards moſtly, &c. is plainly Legal. Nay, it is abſolutely falſe. For if a man be moved (a I ſaid) only by hopes of unſeen things in ano… ther world to obey God, and quit things preſent for his ſake; no doubt he ſerves him in an Evangelical manner.

N. C.

Good Neighbour, be not ſo confident.

Why ſhould I not have ſome degree of confidence about theſe things, ſeeing I am maſter of common Reaſon, and I have conſulted alſo with ſeveral of our Miniſters about them, who have made it plain to me, that the Goſpel propounds Eternal Rewards in the Life to come, as the great motive to well-doing? The moſt that any ſober man ever ſaid (as far as I can learn) in this argument is, that he who doth well only in ſight of thoſe rewards is in a weak eſtate; but they always allowed him to be indued with an Evangelical Spirit.

N. C.

Then it ſeems you live upon your own purſe, and upon what you can earn of God; which he tells you is contrary to a Goſpel ſpirit.

It is ſo. But that is an impertinent Concluſion from his former diſcourſe. For a man may ſerve God upon the account of Reward, and yet not be ſo fooliſh as to imagine he can earn any thing of him.

N. C.

Indeed you ſpeak too confidently.

I am not of that mind. For I may judge what is conſequently ſpoken as well as another man. And I am ſure that Concluſion is nothing to the purpoſe: only he imagin'd this to be a pretty ſaying, That a man of a Goſpel ſpirit knows he lives upon a better purſe, than all his own …arnings can amount unto.

N.C.

I wiſh you would be more temperate.

Who can endure to ſee men bear up themſelves ſo highly, and hear them cry'd up, as if they were full of the Spirit, when as there is ſcarce common ſenſe in them, and not be a little concern'd?

N.C.

Well, ſuppoſe there be one flaw in that Diſcourſe, muſt that make all this ado?

One flaw? Read the reſt, and you will find that it is no wiſer. For he would have us immediately after to receive this as another note of a Legal ſpirit, that it is a fearing ſpirit, put on rather by the Threatnings, than the Promiſes; and the Goſpel ſpirit rather by Promiſes than Threatning.

N.C.

And is not this true?

No. For our Saviour bids his Diſciples again and again to fear▪ (Luke 12.4, 5.) not indeed ſuch things as the Moſaical ſpirit did, Temporal Calamities upon their Bodies, Goods. &c. but Eternal Miſeries, which they ſhould avoid, though with the enduring of all the hardſhips in the world. And whereas he ſays, that the difference between the Diſpenſations is, that the one is terrible, the other comfortable; it is manifeſtly falſe. For the Goſpel ſpeaks a great deal more terribly, than the Law doth, to Hypocrites and Unbelievers.

N.C.

Therefore he tells you afterward, that a gratious Soul may be full of fears about its condition.

This is nothing to his buſineſs. For he was not ſpeaking concerning the fears, which a Soul hath about its eſtate; but of the Principle upon which a man doth his duty. And, if I underſtand any thing, a Chriſtian is moved by fear, as well as hope.

N.C.

Well, he acknowledges ſo much when he ſaith a gracious heart may be full of fears.

I tell you again this is impertinent; for theſe are not motives to his Duty, but rather hindrances and impediments, as he will tell you. And beſides, he makes them to be cauſeleſs fears; for, he ſaith, they are the fears of a man that ſtands upon a rock; and therefore he ought not to be troubled with them. Whereas the Scripture requires us to fear, (Hebr. 4.1.) (and tells us there is cauſe for it) leſt a Promiſe being left us of entring into reſt, any of us ſhould ſeem to come ſhore of it: and to work out our ſalvation with fear and trembling: and, to have grace to ſerve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Mind this laſt place, and tell me if it do not directly oppoſe what he ſaith. He perſwades you that a fearing ſpirit is a Legal ſpirit… and the Apoſtle tells you, it is an effect of the Goſpel grace, and ſuch a thing whereby we acceptably ſerve God.

N.C.

You have ſtudied this, I perceive: and I have not. But what ſay you to the third, which is this, A Legal ſpirit meaſures the love of God by outward things.

I ſay it is the beſt thing he ſays; and he was to blame, that he paſſed it over ſo ſlightly and haſtily, as if it were not worth his notice.

N.C.

Is not the fourth as remarkable, viz. That an Old Teſtament Spirit trades much, or moſt, or altogether, with conditional Promiſes; the other not?

It is indeed very remarkable: Firſt, for the paltry phraſe of trading in promiſes; and Secondly, for the pernicious conſequence of the Doctrine.

N.C.

Why? Is not the Doctrine true?

No. For though there was an abſolute Promiſe of ſending Chriſt, yet there are no abſolate Promiſes which Chriſt makes to us.

N.C.

He ſeems to grant as much.

That is, he contradicts himſelf.

N.C.

No; he ſaith, though the Promiſe b… Conditional; yet the Lord hath promiſed that Condition elſewhere, and that without a Condition.

Then it is not Conditional; for what i… without a Condition is abſolute.

N.C.

You would make him ſpeak Nonſenſe.

Do you try at leiſure if you can make good Senſe of his words, which methinks are not much better, than if he had ſaid, The Promiſes are Conditional, but without any Condition.

N.C.

Phy, Sir! they are thus to be taken: The Promiſe is upon a Condition; onelyonly that Condition is promiſed without a Condition.

Now you have mended the matter finely; and made it plain, that he thinks all the Promiſes are abſolute. Which how well it agrees with their being Conditional, I pray tell me, when you have thought of it, at our next meeting.

N.C.

Do not you grant then that God promiſes the Condition (upon performance of which we ſhall enjoy the Promiſe) without a Condition?

No indeed; for it is certainly falſe. He promiſes (for inſtance) Eternal life if we repent and effectually believe, and not otherwiſe. Repentance therefore and Faith are the Conditions of that Promiſe. And I affirm that God nowhere promiſes that any of us (do we what we will) ſhall repent and believe. But he requires us to conſider and lay to heart what is ſpoken to us by his Son Jeſus; which is as much as to ſay, that upon this Condition he will work Repentance and Faith in us.

N.C.

He doth ſo. But though the Promiſe runs conditionally, yet he tells us, it ſhall be fulfilled abſolutely.

You mean, W. B. tells us ſo; and therein confeſſes he did not ſpeak truly before, when he ſaid the Promiſe was without a Condition; for now he acknowledges that it runs conditionally. And to ſay it ſhall be fulfilled abſolutely, is to ſay, that it ſeems to be Conditional, but is not.

N.C.

Well; methinks there is much of Myſtery in what he delivers.

That is, you do not underſtand it, but it ſounds prettily, and ſo you like it. And ſo I believe you do the next, (for the ſame reaſon) wherein he tells you, that in the Old Teſtament they came to Chriſt by the Promiſe, but now we come to the Promiſe by Chriſt.

N.C.

I like it becauſe it ſeems to carry a… great myſtery in it.

It may ſeem ſo, but it doth not.

N.C.

No? what do you make of it?

I think it rather carries a plain falſity in it. For we come to Chriſt by the Promiſe as well as they; and they went to the Promiſe by Chriſt, as well as we.

N.C.

I know not what you mean.

That's becauſe you know not what he means. But if you will underſtand me, thus it is. There was a Promiſe that God would ſend Chriſt into the world; and the fulfilling of thi… Promiſe is one great reaſon why we believe it Jeſus; and ſo we are led (you ſee) to him by the Promiſe. On the other ſide, there were Promiſes of great things that Chriſt would do for thoſe that believed on him; and thoſe then tha… did believe the Meſſiah would come, hoped fo… the enjoyment of theſe Promiſes by his means; and ſo (if I may ſpeak in his phraſe) they went firſt to Chriſt, and then to the Promiſe,

N.C.

I do not well apprehend you; and therfore thinks it's time to lay aſide this Book.

You do diſcreetly? For if you had continued your diſcourſe about it, I ſhould have diſcovered a world of Follies to you.

N.C.

The things of God are Fooliſhneſs to the natural man.

Theſe are not the things of God, nor the things of a man neither; but childiſh Fancies, or as we commoly ſpeak, New-nothings.

N.C.

I know they appear ſo to the natural man.

I do not judge according to meer Nature but by the direction of the Spirit which inſtructed the Apoſtles; and therefore you apply that Scripture fooliſhly to me.

N.C.

You uſe your reaſon too much.

You have ſome reaſon to ſay ſo, for if I had uſed it leſs, things had not appeared ſo …idiculous.

N.C.

By that time your heart hath lain ſo long …-ſoke in the bloud of Jeſus as his hath done, we ſhall hear other language from you.

You are taken, I perceive, with that new …hraſe in the Epiſtle to the Reader, and only …ecauſe it is new: elſe it would ſeem very irre…erent, being taken from a Toaſt in a Pot of …le, or a Sop in a Dripping-pan; a great deal more fit for a Preface before a Book of one of thoſe you call Old Sokers, then of ſuch a Reverend Author.

N.C.

You are merry, Sir.

Truly, I do not make my ſelf merry with any mens Sins: but at their little fooliſh Affectatious, how can one chuſe but ſmile? But could he not as well have ſaid, that he had a long time thought of the efficacy and virtue of the Bloud of Chriſt; or, that he was much acquainted with the Love of Chriſt in dying forus? Why to ſay that he had lain long a ſoke in his blood, is as abſurd as if he had told us that he had lain long beaking himſelf in the Beams of the Sun of Righteouſneſs; or roaſting himſelf before the Fire of the Divine Love.

N.C.

Pray, Neighbour, forbear theſe expreſſions.

I was only going to ſhew you that we have as good a faculty, as you to coyn new Words & Phraſes, if we would take the liberty. But I will forbear, if you will but be content upon this occaſion to look back with me, and conſider how all the Nation comes to be overrun with folly.

N.C.

How, I pray you?

As ſoon as you had caſt out of doors all that was Old among us; if any Fellow did but light upon ſome new & pretty Fancy in Religion, or ſome odd unuſual Expreſsion, or perhaps ſome ſwelling words of Vanity▪ preſently he ſet up for a Preacher, and cry'd up himſelf for a man that had made ſome new diſcovery. And ſuch was the confidence of theſe men, both in inventing ſtrange Language, and proclaiming their great Diſcoveries every where, that the poor people were perſwaded, the Nation never knew what Communion with God meant till this time. Now they thought the happy days were come, when the Spirit was powered out, the Myſteries of the Goſpel unfolded, Free grace held forth, the Anointings and Sealings of the Spirit vouchſafed, Chriſt advanced to his Throne; and when they ſhould have ſuch Incomes, in dwellings, and I know not how many other fine things, as never was the like heard of before. For one man comes and tells them of the ſtreamings of Chriſt's Blood freely to ſinnners: another bids them put themſelves upon the ſtream of Free grace, without having any foot on their own bottome: A third tells them how they muſt apply Promiſes, abſolute Promiſes. A fourth tells them there is a ſpecial Myſtery in looking at the Teſtamentalneſs of Chriſts Sufferings. And becauſe he found that every body had got into their mouths Goſpel Truths, hidden Treaſures, and ſuch like words; he preſented them with Sipps of Sweetneſs, and told them he was come to ſhew them how the Saints might pry into the Father's Glory; and in ſhort, bid them not be afraid of New Lights, but ſet open their windows for any Light that God ſhould make known to them.

N.C.

Sure, no body uſed ſuch Expreſſions as theſe.

This laſt is to be found in that very Authour you have laid out of your hands, pag. 47. who alſo puts the people into a fancy, that they have Revelation and Viſions in theſe dayes.

N.C.

Certainly you do him wrong.

You ſhall be judg of that, when you have read the beginning of the next page. There he tells you that there are four times wherein you ſhould think much on Chriſt crucified. And the firſt is this, In caſe of ſome Revelation or Viſion that you may be under. Which he repeats again in the following page. It is a good thing, ſaith he, to think of Chriſt crucified at all times, … when you have Revelations and Viſions, &c. … is a good time. From whence I conclude, … as he bids you open your windows for new Lights to come in, ſo, when he thinks on't, he will call upon you, as the Beadle doth in the Streets, Hang out your Lights, Hang out your new Lights.

N.C.

Pray be not ſo abuſive.

There is no abuſe at all in this. For the ſame reaſon that made him ſtep at firſt out of the common way of ſpeaking, may make him uſe ſuch an expreſſion as this if he light on it. I… being alſo a thing peculiar to ſuch men to pleaſe the people with ſome new-found Words and Phraſes; which if they ſhould lay aſide, together with all their abuſed Scripture-expreſſion they would look juſt like other men, only not ſo well.

N. C.

You may ſay your pleaſure.

I thank you. And pray look back again, and conſider what followed all theſe glorious Diſcoveries, as they called them. Since the people were ſo much in love with new-minted Words, in which they thought there were great Myſteries concealed; thoſe men who would excell all the reſt of theſe new Teachers ſet forth themſelves in more pompous Language, and made a ſhew of a more glorious Appearance of God in them. For they told the people of being Godded with God, and Chriſted with Chriſt, &c. which ſtrangely amuſed ſilly Souls, and made them gaze and ſtare, as if the Holy Ghoſt were come down again from Heaven upon men.

N. C.

Our Miniſters are not of this ſtrain.

But they firſt began this affectation of new phraſes; and no wonder if their Scholars endeavoured to out-do them.

N. C.

They are none of their Scholars.

Sure they all came out of their School. For they taught men firſt to deſpiſe ſober and plain Doctrine, which teaches them their Duty toward God and their Neighbour, entertaining them with finer Speculations of pretended Goſpel-Myſteries and Manifeſtations; with which we heard almoſt every Sermon ſtuffed: ſo that he was thought no body that had not good ſtore of them. Now as thoſe you admire found they could win no great number of Proſelytes, unleſs they left the old track of Preaching Sobriety, Juſtice, Charity, and Godlineſs: ſo their Scholars found in a little time that the new Notions and Language of their Maſters were grown ſtale; and that unleſs they invented newer, at leaſt coined ſome other Phraſes, their Reputation would be but ſmall. And thus it came to paſs, that every one, ſtriving not ſo much to ſpeak what would profit, as what would pleaſe, dreſſed up Religion in affected Language of his own making; and new Expreſſions, if not new Notions, were heaped one upon another every year; till none knew what Chriſtianity was. For at laſt there aroſe a Company of fine Youths, who judged even their Maſters to be in a low and dull Form of Religion, ſticking in the beggerly Elements, and the dead letter, and the Old-Teſtament ſpirit, as their manner of ſpeaking was. Theſe imagine that not only we, but you, know Jeſus only in the Fleſh, and ſtand in the outward Court, and are not yet come within the Veil to diſcern the Spirit and the Myſtery, which they alone bring to light. Such a progreſs doth Fancy make, when once it is let looſe, and men are taught not to reaſon, but to believe, there is no end of its Follies; and God only knows when this Nation, which is overflowed with them, and is made fond of them, will be reduced to a more ſober mind.

N.C.

We bewail it as well as you.

I am glad of it. But I wiſh you would bewail the Original ſin of all (as W. B. adviſes you in another caſe, I doubt with no good meaning, pag. 473.) which will be found in your ſelves; from whence a great number of other Miſchiefs have flowed, and made the ſame progreſs with that now named. For you firſt taught the people to forbear all expreſſion of Devotion when they came into the Church, and decried the reverence of uncovering the Head there as Superſtitious and abominable. And ſo they ſoon took the liberty to come talking into the Church, and not onelyonly to walk with their Hats on to their Seats (even when the Miniſter was reading the Holy Scriptures) but keep them half on when he was at Prayer. And then, becauſe others were wont to kneel, or at leaſt Stand, in that holy Duty; they would ſhew their Liberty, or their Oppoſition (I know not whether) in Sitting, nay in Lolling after a lazy faſhion, as if the Miniſter were telling a ſleepy Tale, not praying to our Creatour. In ſhort, there were no bounds could be ſet to their Extravagancies; but they found out as many new Geſtures, and odd phrantick Expreſſions, in their Prayers, as before they had done in their Preaching.

N.C.

For all this you ſhall never make me believe but that they are the onelyonly Spiritual Preachers.

This you told me before; and I am of your mind, if you call that Spiritual Doctrine which is airy, thin, and ſo refined that no body can feel and touch it, no not with his moſt ſerious thoughts.

N.C.

Yes, I can feel it to be very Spiritual?

It is an hard matter to underſtand your Language. Do all our Preachers onelyonly tell us carnal things?

N.C.

That is not my meaning.

What then?

N.C.

I call it Spiritual, to diſtinguiſh it from Moral Teaching.

As much as to ſay, our Miniſters teach men their Duty, and yours do not: or elſe, that yours teach them onelyonly ſuch Duties as may be done in their Spirits between God and themſelves, but not ſuch as are expreſſed in Life and Manners, in our bodily actions, which tend to the good of our Neighbours, and the Happineſs of the world.

N.C.

I underſtand you not.

Your Sermons are chiefly about prayer, and meditation, and Communion with God, and Believing,—

N.C.

Yes, Believing: Now you have hit my meaning.

But I was going to add ſomething to that word, viz. Believing, without Doing. Elſe you will not count it ſpiritual Preaching.

N.C.

Not if they ſhould inſiſt much upon Doing. For there are more Spiritual matters for Believers to be inſtructed in.

That is, things revealed to us by the Spirit ſent down upon the Apoſtles.

N.C.

I know not what to ſay to your explication; for I never heard it before. But pray proceed.

I know no ſpiritual things but thoſe which concern the glory of our Saviour in the heavens, his power at Gods right hand, his Interceſſion there for us, his coming again to Judgment, and ſuch like; which are proved to be true; not by humane Reaſon, but by the Spirit deſcending from heaven on the Apoſtles.

N.C.

Well, and are not theſe great things?

And do not our Miniſters treat of them as well as yours?

N.C.

But none in a ſpiritual way. Ours treat of ſpiritual things ſpiritually.

I gueſs what you mean. They treat of theſe things in ſuch a manner, as not to bring them down to meddle with our Lives, or not much and chiefly, as W. B. ſpeaks. Or thus, they draw matter of Comfort from them, but little or nothing of Duty.

N.C.

I know not how to expreſs it. But I alway find that they handle theſe things in a ſweeter manner than other men.

I believe you. For nothing is ſo ſweet and pleaſing to fleſh and bloud, as for a man to hear how much a great Prince is in love with him, and how freely he loves him; how his heart beats in Heaven toward him; and eſpecially how careful and compaſſionate he is toward him in a perſecuted condition.

N.C.

And is not this very ſpiritual Doctrine?

Yes. But ſetting aſide all fancy; nothing is more ſolidly open'd by our Divines, than the power of our Saviour, and his great love toward his faithful and obedient Diſciples.

N.C.

You muſt needs ſtill bring in Obedience.

I have been taught to do ſo. For this great Lord always loved righteouſneſs, and hated iniquity: and therefore God hath anointed him with the oyl of gladneſs above his fellows; i. e. given him ſuch a Royal Power in the Heavens, (Hebr. 1.9.) Unto which glory we cannot be promoted but by the ſame way of Righteouſneſs. And let me tell you, I think I have heard it clearly demonſtrated, that though there is infinite comfort and ſatisfaction in believing that our Lord Jeſus is ſo exaled, and hath made us ſuch promiſes, which he is able to make good; yet all this is but to incourage our Obedience, and to make us conſtant and firm in the Chriſtian Religion, notwithſtanding all the Difficulties and Troubles we meet withall for Chriſt's ſake. So that in truth theſe are the moſt ſpiritual Preachers, that is, the beſt Interpreters of the mind of the Spirit, who urge and preſſe men, from the conſideration of what God hath revealed to us in theſe matters, to be ſtedfaſt and unmoveable, and abundant in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labour ſhall not be in vain in the Lord.

N.C.

Doth not Chriſt himſelf ſay that the Work of God is Believing? (John 6.29.)

Yes, but not ſuch a believing as yours, which is only a relying on Chriſt for the forgiveneſs of your Sins.

N.C.

What was it then?

An effectual perſwaſion that God hath ſent Jeſus into the world, as he there tells you, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath ſent. And if you can think he means a bare perſwaſion of this, that God ſent him, without the effects and fruits of it, which is the becoming his Diſciples ſincere profeſſion of his Religion, and living according to it; then the Devil may be a good Believer, a very Spiritual perſon and great Saint, for he very early acknowledged Him to be the Son of God. And we read that the Devils believe and tremble.

N.C.

Alas! this is a poor Faith, which cannot apply the Promiſe.

That's becauſe it is not made to them. For if it were, and they had but a good fancy, they might apply it (in your way) as well as any body elſe, and yet remain Devils ſtill.

N.C.

Now you go beyond all the bounds of Reaſon.

Becauſe I follow you, whoſe Doctrine leads to this.

N.C.

How doth that appear?

I caſt my eye caſually upon one place in the Book newly nam'd, and there I found this Myſtery; That though there is a Condition in the new Covenant, yet no Condition to be perform'd by us, but by Chriſt our ſecond Adam: pag. 69. And though he confeſſes ſomthing muſt be performed by us, yet he ſaith, it is all promiſed to us, and that without Condition. And therefore a little after he makes this a mark of thoſe that are in Covenant, to be begot again by a Promiſe, eſpecially the abſolute Promiſe: pag. 72. Now ſince no Condition is to be performed by us, why ſhould any perſon take any care about it? or why ſhould any one trouble himſelf about doing that, which is already done for him, or, if it be not done, is promiſed that it ſhall be done? eſpecially ſince his great work is (as you ſay) only to cloſe with the promiſe, to lay hold upon the abſolute promiſe? For no body being named particularly in the promiſe, nor any quallification ſuppoſed in any man whereby he may know that he is capable of the Bleſſing rather than another; no reaſon can be given why all ſhould not apply it to themſelves, though never ſo bad; nay, why they ought not to apply it.

N.C.

No, that is too great a boldneſs; they muſt be humbled and caſt down—

Then it ſeems they ought to feel ſome Qualification in themſelves, which incourages them to lay hold on the Promiſe. Though, if it be abſolute, it's more than needs, nay, than is good: for they ought to have no reſpect to any of thoſe things, but only the Freeneſs of the Promiſe. And then I pray why might not a Devil remain ſo ſtill?

N.C.

But ſuch as are within the Covenant will find themſelvs wrought upon to forſake their ſins, &c.

Grant that. Yet if they do, it is no Incouragement to them, according to your Doctrine; and therfore if they doe not, it ought to be no Diſcouragement. For they ought not to take any confidence to go to God becauſe anything they find in themſelvs; and therefore they may be confident, though they find nothing in themſevles but only a ſtrong fancy that the Promiſe belongs to their Perſons.

N.C.

Though they cannot take any confidence becauſe theyare ſo diſpoſed toward God yet they muſt be well diſpoſed.

Why ſo?

Will he have it ſo in order to give them Confidence to hope in his Mercy that their ſins ſhall be forgiven?

N.C.

No; the promiſe of that is abſolute.

Then one man may be as confident that hath not thoſe Diſpoſitions as he that hath, believing that it is God's will he ſhall have them when he pleaſes.

N.C.

I ſee you underſtand nothing of the Covenant of Grace.

Yes, I underſtand that it was the riches of God's Grace, to make a Covenant of ſaving thoſe Sinners who would obediently believe on his Son. For this was more than he was bound to grant; and this Believing and Obedience can deſerve nothing of him (it being a Duty to believe what he reveals, & to do what he enjoyns;) and beſides, he gives us the means of Faith, and Helps to well-doing,

N.C.

How can it be Free, if we do any thing for it?

I have told you, that we cannot do any thing for to deſerve it; and what we do he inables us to perform it And therefore it is free; becauſe when we have done all, yet he is no way tied to give us any thing, but only upon the account of his own moſt gracious Promiſe.

N.C.

You grant then his Promiſe is from meer Grace.

No body doubts of it that I know of. But this Grace is not ſo fond as to make the Promiſe to any one that is confident it belongs to him, even whilſt he remains in a ſtate of Sin Such a Favour God had to Sinners, as freely, and without any diſpoſition in them, to ſend his Son and his Holy Spirit: but unleſs they become like to his Son, they are taught by him not to preſume he will give all the Bleſsings the Goſpel promiſes; for they are made only to the faithful.

N.C.

God will make them ſo.

But according to your Opinions, that is a thing which they need not conſider when they apply the Promiſes of Salvation to themſelves. For you ſay, they muſt have reſpect to abſolute promiſes; which you know have nothing to do with any Qualification for this Favour. In purſuance of which Doctrines you perſwade your ſelves that Aſſurance of God's Love is not to be grounded upon any Grace wrought in us; but only upon the Teſtimony of the Spirit, perſwading us that our Perſons are beloved, and that the Promiſes are made to us.

N.C.

This is Antinomianiſm.

May be ſo; and your Miniſters may be Antinomians, and yet not know it.

N.C.

Call them what you pleaſe, I am reſolved to follow them: for I think you will allow them to be the moſt experimental preachers, in the world.

Stil you peſter me with Phraſes which I doubt you underſtand no more than I.

N.C.

Is not the word plain enough?

It is, if you mean by an experimental Preacher a man that hath tried himſelf thoſe ways which he earneſtly beſeeches others to walk in: but then it will not ſerve your purpoſe; for you cannot deny but we have men that lead as ſtrict and holy lives as any of yours can do.

N, C.

I mean, one that preaches his own Experiences in the ways of God,

You do not well know what you mean. For this is either the ſame that I now told you; or elſe, it may ſignifie no more than one that preaches his own Fancie.

N. C.

Now it is hard to know what you mean.

I mean that tells you ſtories of God's Withdrawings and Deſertings; and again, of his Shinings in and Sealings, &c,

N. C,

And do you call theſe Fancies?

Commonly they are no more. For I obſerve well, meaning people fall into theſe melancholick & deſpairing Fits: & are recovered again into greater Chearfulneſs and Aſſurance, without any reaſon at all; but only by a fanciful application of ſome Scripture or other, which belongs not at all to their condition: and yet caſts them down, or raiſes them up.

N. C.

You are miſtaken; they have Reaſon.

If there be any that can be thought a ſufficient ground, of God's withdrawing himſelf, ſure it muſt be ſome provoking Sin which they have committed. And yet I ſee that they who cannot charge themſelvs with any voluntary act of Sin, nor with any ſuch Omiſſion neither, fall into theſe fancies (ſo I muſt ſtill call them) of being forſaken by God. All the occaſion that ever I could find for ſuch black thoughts is, but ſome ſuch thing as this, that they have not ſuch Inlargments as they were wont; or cannot go to Duty with that delight which formerly they took in it: which your Miniſters ought to teach them, are no Reaſons, but only melancholick Conceits. And if theſe be the things you call Experiences, there are none of us but underſtand them, as well as you, finding the ſame Dulneſs and Heavineſs in our ſelves. Only we are taught not to talk or complain of it, but to do our duty notwithſtanding as well as we are able, and we ſhall find it will not laſt alway.

N. C.

You make too light of theſe things.

I hope not. But you lay too great weight upon them, and make theſe ſuch Marks of a Gracious Soul, that it helps to put good (but weak) people into theſe Humors; and, I doubt, makes them lay hold on all occaſions to fancy themſelves deſerted.

N. C.

Pray ſpeak no more of theſe matters, for I ſee you are ignorant in them; as you are in all the great things of God, which are Fooliſhneſs to the world. Why do you ſmile? They are the Apoſtle's words, (1 Cor. 1.23.)

I know it. But I ſmile to ſee how you prove that which you deny, viz. that Fancy governs you.

N. C.

How do I prove it?

By this application of the Apoſtle's words according to their Sound, and not their Senſe.

N. C.

Why what is their Senſe, think you?

That to a mere Gentile it ſeemed a fooliſh thing to believe that a Crucified perſon was made Chriſt, that is Lord and King of the world. The Jews ſtumbled at this, and would not receive him for the Meſsiah, or King of Iſrael, who ſhamefully hung upon a Croſs: and the Gentile thought this a ridiculous perſwaſion, which none but Idiots would receive. But then he tells you what Gentiles and Jews theſe were; viz. ſuch as were meerly natural, and did not allow the teſtimony of the Spirit, whereby the Apoſtles proved this Doctrine. For they who were convinced that the Holy Ghoſt was in the Apoſtles; and judged not by mere humane Reaſon, but Heavenly teſtimonies, made no ſcruple to believe that this crucified Jeſus was made Lord of all: and herein they acknowledged the great Power and Wiſdom of God to be made apparent.

N. C.

You give the oddeſt interpretations of Scripture that ever were heard of.

Every thing ſeems odd to you which is croſs to your Fancy. But examine the Scriptures ſeriouſly, and you will find the interpretations which I have learnt to be plain and even.

N C

I do read them continually.

I believe you; and that you apply every thing, as you fancy it will fit theſe times.

N. C.

I apply it as I ſee thoſe do who (notwithſtanding all that you have ſaid) I take to be the moſt experimental Preachers. For that which they have ſeen with theer eyes, which they have look ed on, and which their hands have handled of the word of life, that declare they unto us, as S. John ſpeaks, 1 Ep. 1. 1. Pray be more ſerious, and do not laugh while we ſpeak of theſe things.

Well, I will. Bring me one of thoſe men that have done this, and I tell you ſeriouſly I will become one of his Diſciples.

N. C.

I can bring you an hundred that I am acquainted with.

Then the ſtory of the Wandering Jew is no Fable. Would I could ſee but one (one, I aſſure you, would ſuffice me) of theſe happy men.

N. C.

Would I could know what the matter is that makes your fancy wander and rove on this Faſhion. You have talkt ſo rationally all this wile, that I cannot but admire now to ſee your wits go a wool-gathering I know not whither.

I do not ſtray one jot from the buſineſs. I have heard (as I was going to tell you) of a Jew. who being preſent at our Saviour's Death, and ſeing him hang upon the Croſs, hath ever ſince wandred up and down from place to place, and (as the ſtory goes) remains ſomewhere or other to this very day. I always took it indeed for a Lie, till now that I meet with you, who give me hopes to ſee an hundred ſuch men, and that in London.

N. C.

You ſeem to me to be diſtracted. I have nothing to do, either with Jews, or with Lies.

A little, my good Neighbour, with Lies. For if your men have ſeen the Lord of Life with their eyes, and look'd upon him, and handled him; then they were alive in our Saviours time, as that Jew is ſaid to have been. Or elſe he hath appeared to them ſince, as he did to S. Thomas ſaying, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thruſt it into my ſide.

N. C.

No: there was ſome other ſeeing beſide that.

What? hath W. B. or ſome of his Diſciples had a Viſion, wherein they beheld him and look'd upon him?

N. C.

You cannot underſtand the things of God.

Yes, as well as you; unleſs you have had ſome Revelation, which he preſumes you may enjoy.

N. C.

There is ſeeing and feeling without that.

You can tell me of none which we are ſtrangers unto. If you mean, that you diſcern the truth and certainty of the Chriſtian Faith; I doubt not that our eyes are as good as yours in that point. If you mean, that you approve of the Chriſtian life, even from your own ſenſe of the ſatisfaction and Happineſs there is in it; I make no queſtion it as palpable to us as to you. Or if you would have us think that you have long & ſeriouſly meditated upon the Myſteries of the Goſpel, ſo as to be mightily affected with them; I do not believe that we are defective in that neither, but have look'd upon them, as long as your ſelves, and are as affectionate Admirers of them.

N. C.

You are faln, methinks, into a ſtrain of Boaſting.

It is you, that have compelled me, as the Corinthians did S. Paul by undervaluing him. And if you think me a fool in this (as well as other things) I am in a worſe conditon than that great Apoſtle thought he might be: Read his diſcourſe in 2 Cor. 11.16, 17, &c. and give me leave to ſpeak to you a little in his words. You are a wiſe ſort of people, and ſo can be content now and then to ſuffer fools gladly. For you ſuffer if a man bring you into bondage to certain Opinions of his own, which make it neceſſary for you to do or not to do that which God hath not tied you unto. If a man devour you, by living continually upon you; If he take of you, Gold, Silver, and other gifts whereby he muſt be maintained; If he exalt himſelf, pretending perhaps, to more of the Sprit, and a more ſpecial Miſſion from God, than other men have; ſtill you ſuffer him very patiently. Why then cannot you ſuffer me only to boaſt a litle; eſpecially ſince it is not of my ſelf, but of our Miniſters which I hear? And thoſe few words of S. Paul in that place ſhall ſuffice to this purpoſe; Are yours the Miniſters of Chriſt? (I ſpeak you will think, as a fool) ours are more, For they know Chriſt Jeſus the Lord, …s well as yours: they preach him as ſincerely and feelingly: they tread in his ſteps, and crucifie the fleſh with the affections and luſts. And beſide, they are more peaceable, more obedient to Governours, more reſpectful to their Superiours, more modeſt in their Inquiries and Reſolutions about difficult Points, more charitable to thoſe that diſſent from them, and more deſirous methinks to edifie, rather than to humour the people. For they do not ſeek to pleaſe their itching Ears, and gratifie the longings of their Fancies with new-found words, affected Expreſſions, and odd Phraſes; but tell us thoſe things that concern our Saviour and his holy Life in plain & proper Language. Which, I proteſt fills me with joy and gladneſs whenſoever I think of it. And it makes me conclude they have much Experience of the things of God becauſe they make me ſo feelingly conceive what the pleaſure and contentment is of being meek and lowly, ſober and chaſte, contented and heavenly-mined; and above all things, of having an heart inlarged with great Charity to all men, ſo as to be ready to forgive, and to do good. This holy diſpoſition, you cannot deny, muſt needs make them capable to underſtand the Mind of God revealed to us in his Word; which book I obſerve they are very careful we ſhould underſtand aright, and not interpret and apply it, as I ſee you do, according to our Fancy. For you conceive that, becauſe S. John declared what he ſaw and handled of the word of Life. (i. e. of our Saviour and his Goſpel) to convince ſome that denied he was come in the Fleſh, or gainſay'd their Doctrine; you are able to do the ſame.

N. C.

Well, I ſee my miſtake in that. But ſay what you will, your Preachers never had ſuch a Seal to their Miniſtry as God hath given ours, by converting thouſands through their means.

More Phraſes ſtill? You mean God hath ſhewn they are rightly called or ſent by himt

N. C.

Yes.

Then all thoſe men who turn people may ſay that they have a Seal of God to their Miniſtry; See, ſay the Popiſh Prieſts, what multitudes we convert! therfore we are ſent of God. Behold; ſay the Quakers, we have a Seal from Heaven; for ſo many of your people have forſaken you; and follow us.

N. C.

But you miſtake me, Sir; They do not only convert men to our Party, but to to be good They really turn them from ſin to God.

I am glad to hear it. But may not a queſtion be made, whether they are not converted only from ſome, not from all Sins; nay, whether they are not converted from one Sin to another? So I am ſure you confeſs it is with the Quakers, who make men ſometime more civil in one regard, but more uncivil, than ever in others.

N. C.

Sure, you cannot ſuſpect us to be like them.

It will be fit for you to examine yourſelvs throughly in this Point; Whether, for inſtance, many among you are not converted from loving the World, to hate their Neighbours; from cold Devotion at our Churches, to a fiery Zeal againſt our Miniſters; from Undutifulneſs to Natural Parents, to the greateſt Contempt of Civil and Spiritual. Nay, is this never made a Note of a man converted, that, though he have a great many Faults, yet he is wrought to Antipathy to Biſhops, Common-Prayer, an innocent Caſſock, and a Surcingle, as you are pleaſed in deriſion to call our Miniſters Girdles?

N. C.

Truly, I think the badneſs of your Miniſters may have provoked the people to be rude to them; the beſt of them being no better, than Time-ſervers.

We will conſider that by and by. Only let me note, that you cannot deny what I ſuſpect you guilty of. And beſide, ſuppoſe there be a great many converted by your Miniſters to true godlineſs, this is no greater Seal (as you call it) than we have, there being many turned from all their evil ways, to a more noble degree of Vertue, than you can commonly ſhew, by thoſe very men who did then heartily ſerve God when yours too much ſerved the Time.

N. C.

You will ſay any thing.

If you know, what is meant by a Timeſerver, and do not only pelt with words, I hope to make you confeſs, what I ſay.

N. C.

Try what you can do.

I think we are agreed that a Timeſerver is one who complies with the naughty Humors of the time for his own profit, and meddles not with the reigning ſins, for fear of offending his good Maſters by whom he is maintained. A thing which it is hard to ſind any man of note guilty of among us; but which it is notoriouſly known the moſt eminent of yours were faulty in, in their time.

N. C.

I doubt you will prove your ſelf a faſe Accuſer.

Charge me with that, if you can, when I have done. And let me ask you, whether you are not ſatisfied that the ſins of Sacrilege, and Rebellion or Diſobedience to Governours, are very heinous; and whether it be not apparent that their was great need, in the beginig of the late Times, to warn the Nation to take heed of involving themſelves in that Guilt which ſeveral conſiderable perſons were runing headlong into I think you will not oppoſe me in either of theſe, and I take your ſilence for Conſent. And then I dare appeal to you, whether your Divines were not very meal-mouth'd, as we uſe to ſpeak, and afraid theſe words ſhould come within their lips, even then when they ſaw theſe Sins come to their full groowth Nay, I affirm that you ſhall ſcrace find mention of them in their Writings, much leſs was any thing heard of them in their Sermons. Which is an evidence to me, that either they had not ſound and good Conſciences, or that they wanted Courage, and contented themſelvs to ſwim along with the Stream. And in the firſt place, let me tell you ſomthing that hath been obſerved of their unworthy Compliance with the Sacrilegious humour of thoſe times. A worthy Miniſter of my acquanitance once told me, that your Aſſembly-men or other Divines, who wrote the larger Annotations upon the Bible, (of the Edition An. 1646) are very guilty in this point. For where there is a fit occaſion, ſaid he, to ſpeak againſt Sacrilege, and where other Expoſitors are wont to declare the foulneſs of the Sin, there they ſay not a word, but paſs it quite over, as if they knew of no ſuch thing in the world. Though he wouldnot impute it to their ignorance, but to their baſe Cowardiſe and flattering diſpoſition, which was loath to diſpleaſe the Lords of that Time.

N. C.

Sure he did them a great deal of wrong

I'll tell you ſome of the places, he inſtances in. Firſt, that known place Act. 5. where he told me in that Edition of 1646. there is no mention made of their Sacrilege, and defrauding God of that which was devoted to him, (though that was their chief Crime) but onelyonly of their Hippocriſie, Covetouſneſs, and Lying I muſt confeſs I have not the Book, and therefore you muſt take his word for it But thus much I will tell you upon my own knowledge; that having occaſion once to look upon their Annotations, (and that of the third Edition, much inlarged) upon Rom. 2.22. where there was a fitter occaſion to ſay ſomething of this Sin, than in the former place, becauſe the very word Sacrilege is here mentioned, I obſerved (I well remember) that theſe tenderfinger'd Gentleman would not ſo much as touch it, but fairly ſlipt over it. For they only ſpeak of the notion of the word in the Civill Law, (and that not directly) defining it, The taking away from the Emperour any thing that his is. Would not this make one think that they were very much afraid to meddle with this Sin?

N. C.

Perhaps that is the meaning of Sacrilege, there.

One can ſcarce believe it, who conſults the place; where the Apoſtle reprehends a manthat commits ſomthing of the ſame nature with tha…, which he reproves another man for. And therefore I doubt not but, thoſe who then cry'd out againſt Idols, and by no means would indure them in the Holy place, did diſcover their Profaneneſs and diſreſpect to that place ſome other way, which in all likelihood was in not bringing their Offerings thither, but detaining from God that which was his own peculiar goods. They that are learned, I doubt not, can give you other reaſons.

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist, Discourse (1 of 4)

p. 1A Friendly Debate BETWEEN A Conformiſt, and a Non-Conformiſt.

A Friendly Debate BETWEEN A Conformiſt, and a Non-Conformiſt.