Usury Stated Overthrown, Treatise · Part 3

Usury Stated Overthrown · Treatise · Part 3

p. 161**Who is beſt skilled in jeering and knows how to do it artificially. Only one made a ſyllogiſm ſince this his book was penned and gave it to me in Witten, which I will anſwer next in a proper place.THE THIRD PART OF THIS BOOK now followeth.

Containing Objections made by Ʋſurers in the 6th: and 7th: Chapters of my firſt Book, and replyes put to my Anſwers thereunto, by my chief Opponent; and my ſeveral Anſwers to his Replies.

Num: 1. I now advance to the Vindication of my anſwers put to the objections made by Uſurers, in Uſuries behalf.

The firſt Objection is, Biting is in your text condemned: I am no biter, ergo, I am not concerned in this matter, the Pſalm ſpeaks of Neſheck that is biting.

His anſwer is, every Uſurie biteth naturally, either actually, or, potentially, directly, or conſequentially.

Reply. Let Spanhemius anſwer him; whereunto I anſwer. Here let the Learned Reader read Spanhemius in his Dub. Evangel. p. 870. For to no end it is to ſet down his Latin words, as the Champion does, becauſe unlearned men cannot underſtand him.

And becauſe he would have Spanhemius to anſwer me, I will ſay the ſame to him. Let another grave Author anſwer both Spanhemius and him, and firſt the learned Chriſtophorus Cartwright, **Chriſtophorus Cart-wright upon Pſal: 15.late Miniſter in the famous City of York, whoſe words are. 1. It is falſely ſuppoſed, that Neſheck only denotes one Certain Kind of Uſurie, as if there were ſome Vſury not biting (as Spanhemius aſſerts it giving inſtances) whereas it ſets p. 162forth the Nature of all Uſurie (to wit) that it doth bite and take away ſomething with it.

2. To exclude this Cavil, As Calvin alſo, who is greater than Spanhemius) **To be looked upon as but a weak one; as pious and learned Mr. Capel proves him to be, in the matter of Ʋſurie, in his App. conc. Uſurie. As he is no Divine, ſo his judgement is not very great in matters Divine ſaith he. So Thomas Hall in his …ouchſ. of long hair p. 12. ſhews him to be out in ſaying that no where in Scripture long hair in men is condemned, contrarie to Ezech. 44.21.Ezek 44:21obſerves it, in divers places, where Uſurie is called Neſheck, biting, is condemned, there Tarbith, which ſignifies increaſe is condemned alſo, as the Notation of the word, and the Interpretation of it in all Languages does ſhew: Salmaſius himſelf, tho a patron of Uſurie, grants Neſheck, that is, biting, and Tarbith, encreaſe, to be Synonymaes and to ſignifie the ſame thing in divers reſpects; In reſpect of the Borrower, whom it bites, and in reſpect of the Lender, who is encreaſed by it. And my Country man Mollerus upon the 15. Pſal: can make nothing elſe of Neſheck, here, but the takeing of any thing above the Principle in reſpect of loan.

2. I add, That as Spanhemius ſpeaks of An ti-Uſurarians; that they ſay, and doe not prove; ſo the ſame may be ſaid of him here, and moſt times and ſo do his aſſociates; For how will he prove it, that none is bitten, when the borrower payeth his Uſurie money; ſuppoſe he deal in Merchandizing, as he ſaith, or buy in Proviſions, how will he prove it, I ſay, that neither the poor nor Common wealth is bitten, if himſelf be not, which is very rare; but hereof more hereafter.

3. This only I will graunt, that all are nor bitten alike, nor preſently feel it alike, ſome are bitten more, ſome leſs, as by ſeveral ſorts of Dogs greater and leſſer, for Uſurers are compared to Dogs by diverſe Divines, and by Mr. Bolton, and Mr. Trap by name, as it hath been formerly ſhewn. I ſay again; that ſome bite more, as thoſe in Nehemiah did, and as we read of others that did ſo, and more too as a certain Author writes, that the Jews Uſurie has been ſo abominable as that what I have red of it, is incredible. And ††Graftus in Ghrom ſ…is.Graftus writes, that in the 47. year of Henery the 3 d. 500. Jews were ſlain by the Citizens of London, becauſe one Jew would have forced a Chriſtian to pay more than two pence a week for twenty ſhillings, and ſuch a like thing I have heard of a wretched woman living in a City near unto me, and various inſtances more might be given.

p. 163But then there be others who take leſs, ſome, 4. ſome 5. ſome 6, in the 100. And this I know, and can ſay upon experience and obſervation, that even ſuch as have paied but ſix, have bin ſo bitten (tho leſs than others) as that they, that came to look after their Eſtates, when they were deceaſed, were glad to ſell their Land and Leaſe, which they had bought to pay debts, which, paying Uſurie ſtill, they had Contracted.

Num. 2. But my cheif Adverſarie goes on, and jeers at my proofs, from the Market, and from B: Jewel, as the Reader may ſee, that will not count it tedious to read his jeering expreſſions; ſaing, that I ſpeak like a man that underſtands the Market, and write Stilo veteri; after the old Stile, whereunto I anſwer:

1. That it is well known, to all my Neighbours how little I have to do with Markets, deſireing to live like Jeromie 15: 10: and ſtudying as hard as a man can both day and night; what I write of Markets I take from B: Jewel and **With wh…m I joyn famous Capel: in his App: to Uſurie p. 289.Mr. Bolton, let him blame them if he can juſtly; as for his expreſſions of the old ſtile, I ſhall quickly ſtop his mouth for that, telling him, that all that which he can make of my ſaying is that when men pay but ſix inſtead of 8. or 10. in the hundred, that there is the leſs biting, but biting there is, ſay I, and my Friends; as when the Borrower taketh up 400 l. and buyeth land worth 20 l. per annum, he biteth the Borrower, who muſt pay the Uſurer 24 l. and cannot make 20 l. free, all out-going diſcharged: and ſtill he riſes actually or potentially.

The Reply which is made, is but a lame one; the Suppoſitions which he makes, ſignifie but little; for when ſhall one meet with ſuch a bargain that he tells of, and ſome bodie elſe did before him, I mean a bargain upon which is ſo much timber, that in a ſhort time he is able to make up his 400 l. which it coſt him; ſuch purchaſes are Rara avis rare Birds.

What he writes of me is to jeer and to diſgrace me, as his manner is, ſo to do all along, is a meer ſtorie and falſe report.

I add, however things be carried, the Uſurer bites the Borrower potentially, becauſe he may looſe many waies, which notwithſtanding he will have the ſix in the hundred, whether he win or looſe, ſink or ſwim, and whether there be timber upon the Barton, or not.

And tho he bring my Cooſin Spanhemius again to be his Second in Latin, which I will not ſet down here, becauſe the p. 164Vulgar do not underſtand it, yet will not that help him in any wiſe, becauſe he imputeth all the Miſchief that is done by ſuch as have the Uſurer's mony, to the borrowers, whereas the poor borrower muſt needs make up his Uſury mony, which he is to pay to the Uſurer by ſelling his things, if he be a Seller, as that he may both ſatisfie the Uſurer, and live too himſelf by his trading, which cauſes biting, wherein I will not excuſe the Borrower neither, if he do oppreſs any, being fore preſſed by his neceſſity which may be great, but rather ſhal tell him with that great Apoſtle, that the Lord is an avenger of ſuch wrongs, 1. Theſ: 4.5. Which Vengance doubtleſs will reach the Uſurer alſo, who by his Uſurie is the cauſe of ſuch things in the firſt place.

But here ſaith Mr. Jelinger, the Uſurer will reply that ſome other Contracts, as by buying, ſelling, ſetting, a man may be bitten and wronged too.

Reply. And I add, that B: Hall makes theſe the worſt of Uſurers.

Whereunto I anſwer.

1. I plainly ſee, that this man would fain ſet Biſhop Hall my old Friend (as himſelf calls him) and Mr. Bolton, and me by the ears to make ſport for him; but I truſt he will never be able do it as long as his head is hot; for, 1. That good Biſhop hath already ſhewn his Enmity againſt Uſurie ſufficiently, which hath ſo netled this man, as, that it made him forget himſelf, ſo much as to offer to confute him as his Pamphlet ſhews it.

2. And I am alſo as apt to run down ſuch as oppreſs men in buying, ſetting and ſelling, as much as the ſaid honeſt Biſhop.

But let us go on, as he goes on, ſaying what does Mr. Jelinger ſay to the aforeſaid objection? So it may fall out, but herein li…th the difference, that thoſe foreſaid contracts are in themſelves lawful, but Uſury is in it ſelf unlawful.

Reply. This is foreign and ſome of his Fathers that condemned Uſe as unlawful, do alſo condemn Merchandiſing for gains ſake, as Chryſoſt. ſo Caſſiodorus, and Biſhop Hall: Whereto I anſwer.

1. That he needs not make a petitio principii of that which has been ſufficiently demonſtrated.

2. That if Chryſoſtom and Caſſiodorus ſhould be againſt all Merchandizing, which I know they are not, and are not becauſe God is not againſt it, with whom ſuch men will not fight; but I ſay if they ſhould be, I ſhould reject them, as being to be beleived no further, than they prove what they ſay p. 165**Mr. B. p. 49.by the Word of God, which in this caſe they cannot do, becauſe the Word commends honeſt Merchandizing, and Merchants; for elſe what means that which is ſaid and ſtoried of the Vertuous Woman, Pro. 31. and Lydia a ſeller of purple and yet a worſhipper of God, Acts 16.14. So that Biſhop Hall, whom he alledges does not hold Merchandizing unlawful, as alſo I believe, that that Holy Man Chryſoſtome neither would or durſt hold it unlawful in it ſelf; but only ſpake againſt Merchants, a… likely they were in his time, and as he found them, to be moſt of them very unjuſt, oppreſſive and diſhoneſt in their dealings, as Riches in the word are called the unrighteous Mammon, by Chriſt himſelf, not becauſe that all Riches are ſo, as being unrighteouſly gotten; but becauſe commonly and by moſt they are ſo gotten; otherwiſe it would follow, that he ſpake againſt Abraham, Lot, and Job, and their wealth as unjuſtly gotten, which cannot be ſaid of theſe holy men, See Luke 16.9.11.

Numb. 4. But let us ſee what he ſaith next. Lending muſt be free, Luke 6.35. It being reckoned among the liberal Contracts.

Reply. This ſeems to be one of the great miſtakes, that runs through his and Mr. Bolton's diſcourſe; That all lending or laying out of mony to ſupply anothers occaſions muſt needs be free &c. VVhereunto I anſwer.

1. Little ſtrength can be put into a ſaying, which begins with It ſeemeth; an expreſſion often uſed by him and his Authors, which ſheweth their feebleneſs.

2. And ſo it is well for me, that he joyns Mr. Bolton and me, ſhewing thereby that I am not alone in this aſſertion, That lending muſt be free; where I could heap up Authors both Divines and Civilians aſſerting the Law, but ſufficient it is that Chriſt himſelf hath ſaid, as ſome Tranſlations have it, Lend freely, Luke 6.35.

3. As he referreth the Reader to that which he had ſaid already, ſo do I both for Luke 6.35, and for calling lending by an other name, concerning which laſt particular thing I intend to ſay more hereafter.

Object: 2: Mr. Jelinger. The Law againſt Uſurie is Political, concerning the Jews only and not us, therefore we cannot be condemned for it.

Mr. Jelinger, this is a Fallacy, and the contrary cannot be ſufficiently proved: Let us ſee his proofs. 1. The Prophets enumerate Uſurie among the tranſgreſſions of the Moral law, Ezek: 18: 8: 15: Jer: 15: 10: and ſo doth this Pſalm 15: 5: Reply, as for Jer. 15: 10: It makes little for his purpoſe. A. Nor do I make any great matter of it here, but upon an other account p. 166I ſhall make ſomething of it. That which is aſſerted of Ezek. 18. that it contains only Morals, may admit of an uſe of Addubitation, thereby he jeers me; becauſe I did in my laſt Book often mention ſuch an Uſe of Addubitation, which I have learned from a better man than he is, Viz. of that glorious Martyr Peter Ramus, who dyed for Chriſt in the Pariſian Maſſacre, and hath it in his Works; and there he goeth on, and ſaith, It ſeemeth to me there are Judicials and Ceremonials too, expreſſed and referred to, &c.

A 1. It ſeems he ſaith doubtingly. 2. But ſuppoſe it were ſo, there be Scriptures for certain wherein Uſury is placed among Morals only, as Pſal. 15. Ezek. 22.7, 8, 9. As Biſhop **Biſhop Downam upon Plal. 15.Downam alſo hath obſerved it; ſaying, There remains the laſt Teſtimony if ſuch Exceptions can be taken: For here is no mention made either of the Poor, as if it were committed againſt them alone, or of the detaining a pledge, as if Uſury were matched therewith; for it is matched with murder, Idolatry, inceſt, and other ſuch abominations; neither is it in this place, ſo ſubject to oppreſſion, as a ſpecies thereof, but generally and ſimply it is condemned as a grievous abomination. So then this place will hold it, to ſhew that Uſury is reckoned among moral Evils, to make it ſelf a moral Evil. As for the places by him quoted, Lev. 15.14, 18, 35 and 36. and Acts 15.29. to them I have this to ſay. 1. That he infeebles again what he ſaith, by this It ſeems.

2. That as one Sun is ſufficient to give light to the whole World, ſo that one place in Ezek. 22. is ſufficient to give light to all the reſt, to all them that went before, and comes in after ſuch a manner, purpoſely to ſhew what a moral Evil it is, being ſo placed among moral Evils only, to take off the Cavils of Uſuries Champions.

3. That his Aſſertion is falſe in Levit. 25. wherein Uſury is forbidden, ver. 35, 36. placed as he ſaith, in the midſt of political Laws, there are no other Laws mentioned but ſuch in that Chapter. For there are mentioned, ver. 17. theſe moral Laws, You ſhall not oppreſs one another, that is one, but thou ſhalt fear the Lord thy God, that is another, and the ſame is repeated to convince this bold and impudent Aſſertor with a Witneſs, ver. 43. Thou ſhalt fear thy God, and one moral more there is in the ſame verſe: Thou ſhalt not rule over him (namely a Servant there mentioned) with rigour; who therefore can believe a man that will ſay ſo, as he ſaith when it is not ſo; this utterly p. 167cracks a mans credit, and puts men upon a Ʋſe of Addubitation ſure enough in a matter of ſuch concernment as is the preſent Controverſie; about the Law of Uſury, whether it be Political or Moral.

4. From that place, Acts 15.29. Where Fornication is placed among Ceremonials it doth not therefore follow that as Fornication is reckoned among Ceremonials, and yet it ſelf is a moral Tranſgreſſion; ſo Uſury may be reckoned among Morals and yet be Political, this I ſay doth not follow. 1. Becauſe theſe Ceremonials there mentioned, were to be obſerved only for a time; as we ſee that they are not now obſerved; becauſe there is no ſuch reaſon for it now as there was then, when the Chriſtians lived among the Jews, who were highly offended by ſuch things as are there prohibited for a Seaſon, whereas Uſury is a ſin for ever prohibited, being a moral Tranſgreſſion as has been partly proved, and ſhall by and by yet be more proved.

Num. 5. 5. And becauſe he brings his Authors aſſerting the Law of Uſury to be political, as Calvin, Hughes, Rivet.

I'le alledge Authors too, and I trow a goodly company of Famous and Learned Men indeed: Viz. Beſides Doctor Fenton and the many famous Biſhops of England, St. Baſil, St. Chryſoſtome, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Gregory Niſcene, Ambroſe, Ciprian, Auſtin, Hieronimus, Thomas Aquinas, Peter Lombard, Dionyſius, Carthuſianus, Gabriel Biel, Lyra, Rainerus, Aquileius, Luther, Melanchton, Brentius, Muſculus, Themnitius, Aretius, Hemingius, VVigandius, Zegedinns, Molarcus, Viguerius, VVolvius, (and many more) to which names formerly named, I ſhall add the Names and very Words of many more very worthy men; as namely Mr. Moſs firſt, who ſaith in his conviction of Uſury, I ſee no reaſon why thoſe precepts of Moſes concerning Ʋſury ſhould not be reckoned among the judicial, and not amongſt the moral Laws; for ſure I am moſt learned men of all Ages, and of all kinds have numbred them among the morals.

2. Mr. Powel frames this ſyllogiſm for the morality of the Law againſt Vſury, in Barbara, from Exod. 22.25. You ſhall not oppreſs him with Ʋſury, Oppreſſion is a breach of the moral Law; Ʋ ſury is oppreſſion, Ergo Ʋſury is a breach of the moral Law, p. 43.

3. The Learned and famous Biſhop Downam proves the morality of it from Luke 6.35. Lend, loking for nothing from thence, and ſo I cheifly prove it from thence.

4. Great Baſil tells us, that therefore it is moral, becauſe Uſury is reckoned foreign, the greateſt of Evils: Ezek. 22. His words in full are theſe foreign, he places Uſury and encreaſe p. 168among the greateſt of Evils, therefore it muſt needs of it ſelf be a Moral Evil, and a great one too; with which Authors I joyn the learned Capel in the **Capel. of Vſurie. p, 267. Neither can the law againſt Vſurie be thought to be Judicial (Otherwiſe Political) law of Moſes. For ſuch laws as ſuch, are known only by ſome intelligence from the Books of Moſes: But Heathens of all ſorts, who never once heard of Moſes his writings have with one voice cried ſin upon Vſurie, and ſhame upon Vſurers (Poets, Orators, Hiſtorians, Philoſophers, all) they have condemned by the light of Nature: and therefore it could not be a Political law of Moſes. Beſides we have it forbidden in the New Teſtament when judicials were out of date, lend, looking for nothing again. Luke 6.35. ſo Capel.Luke 6:35Margin.

5. And now to anſwer his Authors, what are thoſe few to ſo many, ſay I, as was ſaid of the Loaves, what are theſe few among ſo many: He names 3. or 4. and I name 29. and could name many more, and how inconſiderable is their authority all things conſidered. For to begin with Rivet. He tells what might be the cauſes why the Jews might not lend to their Brethren upon Uſurie, but proves it not that they were the cauſes, and beſides Chriſt in the 6, of Luke 35. Overthrows all that he ſaith, and Hughes ſaith, and Calvin ſaith. But a little more of Mr. Hughes firſt that he was too ſhort in ſo great a matter, and wants Scripture for what he ſaith; and 2. I know the time (for we were Miniſters together in one and the ſame Pariſh) when he was bitter enough againſt Uſury, and others there are who can tell and ſatisfie, how he kept them from the Lords Supper for Uſurie.

As for Calvin, I confeſs he was a glorious Sun in the Firmament of Chriſts Church, and one whom I admire and reverence as much as any one Proteſtant writer; but this muſt be confeſſed withall, that he is but a man, and therefore may err as well as other men, and doth err in the Doctrine of the Chriſtian ††Calvin. Epiſt. reſponſ. de Vſuris.Sabbath; and therefore is to be commended for this, that in the Doctrine of Ʋſurie, holding it to be forbidden by a political law, he would have no man take his Opinion for an Edict; as his words do declare it, whereby he requireth that no man ſhould ſtand upon his judgment for a full and abſolute Determination of this Controverſie.

Whereupon a great Author makes this Inference; that unjuſtly Mr. Calvin is cited as a Patron of their unlawful party. So that I have no reaſon or cauſe to be of his Judgement, whileſt he himſelf would not have me ſtick to it. Rivet is alſo for me; p. 169for he is againſt Injury in the place by the Champion quoted; and ſo am I, and ſo againſt Uſurie, which is an Injury.

6: And why ſhould not the Laws of Uſurie be reputed for Moral, as well as thoſe which concern inceſt, of which no Divine ever doubted but that they ought to abide perpetual as precepts of the Moral law? For if it be objected that the laws of Uſurie have received ſome exceptions (whereof hereafter) it is moſt evident that the laws of Inceſt have received exceptions, and diſpenſations too. In the Law one Brother was permitted, yea commanded to raiſe up Seed unto another, Deut: 25. Contrary to Lev: 18: 16: Thou ſhalt not diſcover the ſhame of thy brother's wife. Yea in the beginning of the World when the Moral law was written in Mans heart.

Cain married his Siſter 4. Gen: 17: I ſay his Siſter, becauſe he could marry no other, there being no other woman in the world but his Mother which he could not marry, and his own Siſters of whom Joſephus **Joſeph Antiq. Jud. l. 1. c. 3.writes, that there were alſo Daughters born to Adam and Eve. And if it be obiected that there was an abſolute neceſſitie for it; I anſwer, that there was no ſuch abſolute neceſſity for the brother, but now mentioned, to raiſe up ſeed to his Brother; becauſe the Children of Iſrael did multiply exceedingly unto ſeveral hundred thouſands; and beſides I ſay there was no ſimple or abſolute neceſſity for Cain neither, but a neceſſity only ex hypotheſi or Suppoſition as Logicians ſpeak; for what neceſſity could compel God to Create only Adam and one Eve, when he might have many women of many ribs, he having abundance of ſpirit. Mal: 2: 15: Thus I reaſon a Pari, from the compariſon of this Equality. The laws of Inceſt are Moral and yet have received Exceptions, and why not then may not the laws againſt Uſury? Tho they received exceptions ſemblably whereto we inſtance in Moral laws againſt Murder, and Theft, which received exceptions in Abraham; and Iſraels Caſe, of which hereafter.

This for the preſent may ſuffice to ſtop my Adverſaries mouth, and to anſwer Spanhemius, and others who ſtand ſo much upon Exceptions to prove that the law againſt Uſurie is not Moral but Political: ††The very Atheiſts, which now call themſelves Theiſts, confeſs that the Scripture is againſt Vſurie, and make a great matter of it: ſo that their Confuters have no other way to anſwer them but that it is againſt it, by a Political law, which they little regard; becauſe they cannot prove it. More I could ſay of theſe Theiſts about Vſurie, but this may now ſuffice.Only one thing more I will add in the Margin.

p. 1707: Suppoſe it were Political, yet doth the Equitie of it hold ſtill.

8: It is true, that a Political tolleration is annexed to the law as an Appendix, which doth not therefore make the law againſt Uſurie Political, but leaves it in its morality, even as the tolleration of Inceſt, leaves the Moral law againſt Inceſt, in its morality as perpetually to be obſerved and even now under the Goſpel by name, as is evident from the Inceſtuous. 1 Cor: 5: 1.

9. Yea; even my very Adverſaries conceſſion ſtrengthened by Doctor Taylor, Rivet and Spanhemius makes for me, ſaying, that tho Uſurie among the Jews were immediately and directly againſt a Judicial law; yet it might be Moral ſecondarily. I muſt not be an Uſurer; becauſe this follows, that I muſt not be an Uſurer, becauſe Uſurie is a Moral Evil, at leaſt ſecondarily. And thus Uſurers ſtrangle themſelves by their own diſtinctions, and that eſpecially in the great and weighty controverſie of, and about the Morality of the law of Uſurie; whereabout I have been the longer and larger, becauſe the Objection is a chief one, intending to be briefer in my Anſwers to the reſt.

10: In anſwer to that there is an Uſurie, which the Champion ſaith is directly and immediately a Moral Evil; let Biſhop Downam's Sylogiſm and Inference upon it be ſeen upon the 15▪ Pſal. 5. I cannot now enlarge being bent to abridge.

3. The very law of Nature is againſt it. Reply. I grant if ment of biting and oppreſſive Uſurie, &c.

Num: 6.1. Lo, how he does, ad nauſeam uſque, repeat his thread bare and near worn out diſtinction; between biting and toothleſs Uſurie, and if there were an Uſurie which is a harmleſs thing and wants teeth, a diſtinction which he hath not from God but men; his new men which have coyned it: and **Dr. Rainold in his B: of Divorce p. 8.which as a learneder man than he is, Doctor Rainold I mean writes, is but a meer flam. For where doth God diſtinguiſh ſo; let us look to his principal law againſt Uſurie, in Deut. 23.19. Where he gives Uſurie two names; the one is Neſheck the other Tarbith:, (which Salmaſius himſelf, as was formerly ſhown, Calls ſynonymaes, and which without any diſtinguiſhing between biting and toothleſs Uſurie, God makes both damnable, and unlawful, and ſinful, 18: Ezek: 12, 13. I ſay abominable, becauſe of encreaſe, ſaying. Hath he taken Vſurie, or Encreaſe ††He ſhall not enter Heaven, who taketh more then he gave, ſaith Dr: Sandersſhall he then live, he ſhall dye; p. 171tho he take but increaſe. 2: Unlawful and ſinful both becauſe, elſe it could not be damnable.

2. As I ſay it is againſt the Law of Nature, ſo greater Chriſtian men than my ſelf, ſay it: and not onelyonly ſay it, but alſo ſyllogiſtically prove it: I will now name great **Melanchton in Epiſt. Philoſo. morum. Anno 1542.melanchton, the Phoenix of Germany, whoſe ſyllogiſtical Arguments do prove that Uſury is againſt the Law of Nature, are theſe;

It is unlawful to exact money where there is no exchange for any thing, (that is when for nothing we exact mony).

An Uſurer keeping his Stock doth exact Uſury for nothing; becauſe his ſtock is whole, but only in reſpect of lending.

Therefore to exact Vſurie is unlawful; thus he goes to the Law of Nature.

2: A thing by nature barren, is not to be uſed as if it were fruitful.

But money is by nature barren, Ergo.

3: The price ſhould not be ware: ergo, money ſhould not be ware.

The Antecedents proof. Becauſe at what time the prior is made ware, there doth always ſomething above the price come to the Ʋſurer, whereby for nothing ſomething is gotten, and an inequality is done; ſo a few Vſurers bring the wealth of many Cities to themſelves; For the exchanges cannot be continual when no Equality is obſerved.

Num: 7: Now to exerciſe Uſurie is contrary to Nature; it is for bidden by antient Laws and godly Preachings. Thus my Author Melanchton.

Yea, eminently great Heathen men ſay the ſame viz:

1: Great ††Plutarch quod non oporteat faenorari.Plutarch, who ſaith. The Vſurers alſo mock at the laws of Nature, juſt as ſome of our Chriſtian mockers do, which affirm that of nothing nothing can be gotten.

2: The very Heathens find therefore two great faults in Uſurie committed againſt Nature. The firſt is, That the Ʋ ſurer will make a barren thing (as money) to bring forth, as it were Children; that is to ſay, as a wiſe man ſaith, pence and ſhillings. 2: That he exacts Vſurie ſo long, that at the laſt the debtor payeth Ʋſurie not only for the principal ſum, but alſo for the uſe of it.

3: As for Cicero and Proculus by my Adverſarie cited and named, tho he would make them mine enemies, yet are they my conſtant and faithful friends ſtill. 1. Cicero, ‖‖Cicero, Offic.whom I p. 172read all over in my youth and extracted; and who I am ſure is as much againſt the Uſurer as my ſelf, as by theſe his words it appears, that he brings in Cato thus, That being asked what it was to lend out mony upon Ʋſury; he anſwered it is no better than to kill a man; which (as ſaith a great **Mr. Moſs.Author) Tully rehearſes in the diſpraiſe of Ʋſury; nor doth this Tully, in the words by the Champion quoted, make againſt me at all.

Nor 2. The words of ††In Pandict. de pactis l. 5. & l. 11.Proculus; who that I may let men ſee how he is for me: holds thus, If I give or deliver to thee ten to make thee debtor for eleven. Proculus thinks, ſaith Ulpian, that no more can be certainly demanded than ten, his reaſon is, for an obligation cannot be made touching a thing, but ſo far forth as it is delivered, and in the very words againſt me alledged, he ſaith no more, than I can ſay my ſelf for my ſelf, viz. that is Dolus Malus, for a man takes to make gain of anothers loſs, where the word ſignifieth all that which is repugnant to all natural right and equity, as Uſury doth; which is contrary to natural right and equity. Here hear what Wiſe-men ſay, That if I deliver ten pounds to my neighbour with this intent that he ſhall pay me the ſame ten pounds, and alſo ten ſhillings more by the year, ſo long as he keeps it, and I either take or in my heart look for the ten ſhillings as my debt, I do injury and ſin againſt the command of God, who forbids me not only to ſteal, but alſo to covet another mans goods, ſaith Doctor Sanders, who alſo fully proves it, that Uſury is againſt the Law of Nature, and that Wiſe men and Lawyers, whereof Proculus is a cheif one, confeſs Uſury to be againſt nature, and ſo againſt Right or Natural Equity, which I have formerly proved ſufficiently.

I end with ‖‖Ariſt. l. 1. p. 60. Polit.Ariſtotle, who ſaith expreſly, The Traffick of Ʋſury is worthily hated; becauſe it ſeeketh gains upon the penny; and ſeeks not for that which mony was invented: for mony was invented to make exchanges withal, but Ʋſury exchanges not, but increaſeth the penny, whereof alſo it took its name in Greek. Now thoſe things which are begotten, are like to them by which they are begotten; In Ʋſury mony brings forth mony, wherefore that kind of gaining is eſpecially againſt Nature.

Num. 8. And ſo I have by Authors and Reaſons made it evident, how Uſury is againſt Nature and natural Equity, and how it is an injury, and how well Proculus and I do agree, and ſo I will go no further.

The Second Reply is, that God permitted his people to lend p. 173upon Uſury to a Stranger, and that therefore the Law againſt Uſury is Political, for if Moral, how could they lend to a Stranger. Deut. 22.19.

Anſw. Some ſay one thing, ſome another, I for my part ſhall cut ſhort what I have to ſay, and go to that moſt notable and emphatical expreſſion, Deut. 23.19, 20. foreign, unto that Stranger thou mayeſt lend upon Ʋſury, the Canaanite, namely, whom it was lawful to kill, ſo bleſſed Ambroſe: Reply, A bad ſhift is better than none, and ſo forth, let the Reader read the reſt of my Book, pag. 33. and in his Pamphlet, which he hath ſent abroad, and is either printed or like to be, pag. 57, 58. till he comes to Mr. Bolton pag. 59. and take and peruſe alſo my ſeveral ‖‖Et videatur etiam Teſtatus in Deut. 23.19. p. 217.Deut 23:19Anſwers, which I ſhall give: As 1. to the ſayings of my Opponent; to be ſeen in his Book, and to his Authors: And whereas he ſaith, that a bad ſhift is better than none, and ſo forth; I anſwer, that I hope I ſhall make a ſhift, (but no bad ſhift) to make good what I ſay and ſaid concerning the Stranger, that it is the Canaanite, and that this ſaying is a better mans ſhift than either he or I, Viz. St. **Ambroſe de Tob. l. c. 11.Ambroſe's, whoſe words I'le now ſet down a little more at large; that he may not ſay it is the ſame which I ſaid already, becauſe I ſay more; St. Ambroſe's words at large are theſe, (for I have read him all over long ago and therefore can quote more yet out of him) as namely, Perhaps you will ſay, it is written thou ſhalt lend upon Ʋſury to a Stranger, &c. who then was the ſtranger but the Amalekite, but the Amorite, but the Enemies of the People of God? There exact Ʋſury whom thou deſireſt to hurt worthily, againſt whom thou goeſt to make war lawfully, on him thou mayeſt impoſe Ʋſury lawfully, whom thou canſt not eaſily overcome by war, on him thou mayſt eaſily wreak thy ſelf by Ʋſury: Take Ʋſury of him whom thou mayeſt kill, againſt whom there is a right to wage War, againſt them there is a right to take Ʋſury. Let me add learned ††Rich. Capel in his Appendix of Ʋſury, added to his Tentations. With whom may be joyned Ainſworth ſaying the ſame.Capels words, Some plead for Ʋſury, that it is not unlawful, for that God did permit it to the Stranger, if it were permitted indifferently to all and every Stranger, than there were ſome colour for it. But it is onelyonly to the Stranger, that is to the Strangers of thoſe curſed Nations, whom they were bound to bite and to eat out, and if this permiſſion were not looked upon as a puniſhment, why is it denyed to a Brother, Deut. 23.18. were it a favour then of all they p. 174ſhould have been permitted to lend unto their Brethren. I add laſtly ne are forbidden to lend to a Brother, and now all Chriſtians ar… Bretheren, and therefore we muſt not lend to any Chriſtian upon Ʋſury as Ʋſurers do.

Now let all true Engliſh hearts judge and chooſe, whom they will follow, this Novice or Calvin, who ‖‖Calvin in his 134 Sermon in Deut. 2.3.Deut 2:3thinks, that by the Stranger are meant all the Nations and Countries adjacent to Paleſtina or Aegypt, Syria, the Iſles of the Sea, and ſuch like, or this learned and holy man Ambroſe, who was ſo tranſcendently godly and able a Divine and Preacher, as that the moſt pious Emperour Theodoſius ſaid of him, that there was but one ſuch Biſhop in the whole World.

2. But leſt men ſhould ſay that I muſt not think to carry it by Authors only, and by this mans greatneſs, we look for ſtrength of Reaſon. I will go to Reaſon, and rip up this matter of the Stranger, ſo far as that the unbiaſſed Reader ſhall be conſtrained to confeſs, that the truth is on my ſide. And firſt I will go to the Hebrew word, which is foreign, and ſignifies not every. Stranger, **As Biſhop Downam ſaith upon 15 Pſal. 5.Ps 5which is not an Iſraelite by birth, or on him that was either Ger, foreign, that, Advena, a Proſelite, dwelling among the Jews, who tho he was a Stranger by birth, yet was a Brother by religion, or ††Qui diu habitavit in aliquo loco Pagnin.Toſhab foreign, Inquilinus, one that was a Stranger by birth, but lived freindly among them, though not circumciſed, as appears by Exod. 12.43, 45, 48. uſury was not to be impoſed, Lev. 25, 35. but only on him that was Nocre, Extraneus or Hoſtis, an Enemy, ſee Obadiah ver. 11. Lam. 15.2. as formerly I mention the ſame thing, and in this ſenſe may be meant any alien, or eſpecially the Canaanite; but doubtleſs we may more rightly underſtand the Canaanite for theſe reaſons.

1. Becauſe as I ſaid already, the word in the Hebrew is not foreign, but foreign, that Stranger, that is obſerved not only by me, but by far greater and abler men than I am, as namely by thoſe two famous men **Jun. & Trem. in loc.Junius and Tremellius, who tranſlate that Text thus, Extraneo iſti, That Stranger, that is to the relicks of the Canaanites; What can be plainer? So the famous Biſhop ††Biſhop Downam 12 Pſal. 15.Ps 15Downam; obſerves it, ſaying as I, the words are not lenecro, but lanecro, the Stranger. And ſo that learned Man Mr. Moſs, ſaying, I am ſure Junius and Tremellius ſo underſtand the place, for they tranſlate it to the Stranger. And one p. 175ſaith, to this ſtranger as if even by it he did point at him. So Dr. **Doctor Taylor in his Progreſs of Saints.Taylor, the word is not lenecro but lanecro the ſtranger. So Capel.

2. Becauſe this ſtranger was appointed to deſtruction Deut. 7.2. Thou ſhalt ſmite them and utterly conſume them: So alſo Joſ. 9.2. It was certainly told thy Servanns how that the Lord thy God commanded his ſervant Moſes, to deſtroy all the Inhabitants of the Land from before you, meaning the ſeaven Nations, Deut. 1.3.

Which very reaſons the two forenamed great men, Junius and Tremellius alſo give as well as I; their words are ſet down expreſly thus, after they had rendred the Text thus, to this ſtranger, that is, theſe remainders. Illas enim Deus exitio deſtinaverat.

For them he had ordained to deſtruction.

3. This ſtranger was to be ††Pool in Deut. 23.19: Mr. Moſs.Deut 23:19conſumed by little and little. Deut. 7.22.

Whereupon † one Gloſſeth thus, and becauſe he ſaw that Vſurie was a means even to EAT them up, (by little and little) he permitted Vſurie.

4. And it could not be any other ſtranger and every other ſtranger, becauſe God is juſt and will not deſtroy a righteous Nation Gen. 20.4. But thoſe Canaanites and Nations ſpoken of Deut. 7.1. had greatly and greviouſly ſinned againſt God, and his people, as namely the Amorites, Gen. 15: 10. Compared with Deut. 7.1. and ſo the reſt of thoſe Nations, did all conſpire againſt Iſrael, (which we do not read of the Syrians, Egyptians, and Iſles ſpoken of by Calvin: That they be the ſtranger) Joſ. 10.1, 2. The Hittite and the Amorite, the Hivite and the Jebuſite, the Cananite, the Perizite, gathered themſelves together to fight with Joſhua and with Iſrael with one accord; the Hebrew is with One Mouth. foreign Crying, down with Iſrael, down with them, we will certainly and utterly conſume them, and eat them up; ſo that it was juſt with God that they ſhould be conſumed and even eaten up, partly by Warr, and partly by Uſurie as St. Ambroſe hath it; but I muſt needs deſire men to parallel this place in Joſhua with Deut: 7: 1. Where thoſe ſame Nations and one more called the Girgaſhites and their Neighbours too, are named viz. The Amorites and the Cananites, and the Perizites, and the Hivites and the Jebuſhites, ſeaven Nations in all with the Girgaſhites, and ordained to deſtruction to be conſumed by little and little, and eaten up p. 176which is a thing very remarkable for the proving of my ſubject matter.

5: And beſides, theſe Nations were ſo near as that they would be a great ſnare to the Jews by their Idols, if they ſhould not be utterly conſumed by the ſword and Uſury. Vers 4. Wherein God himſelf gives this reaſon, why they ſhould conſume them, and make no marriages with them, even becauſe of their Gods and Images. So that no wonder it is, that beſides me, and the aforeſaid men, and other grave and great Divines have been of the ſame opinion, that I am of, concerning this ſtranger; as Namely Petrus **The Martyr digged up to be burnt.Tagius; who writes that there are thoſe which are of this opinion, that the Uſurie here ſpoken of was granted to the Jews, to be exerciſed only upon thoſe ſeven Nations, all whoſe Goods (whereby Uſurie comes in) God had given to Iſrael; ſo that by this grant they might take Uſurie of them.

Num: 10.6: Nor can other Nations which were farther of, be underſtood with any likelyhood; becauſe of ſecurities and conveyances, which muſt be made and given in Uſuries caſe, which cannot be done when men live far aſunder in Iſles, to uſe Calvin's expreſſion; for how can men with any convenience or ſecurity of the Principal, not to ſpeak of any Uſe, ſend out of England into France, or Germany, and indeed who doth ſo?

7: But ſuppoſe it were ſo as they ſay, that we are to underſtand every ſtranger, yet has my Adverſary not gotten the day, for his ſaving and exception of lending to a Stranger is but a ††Or a thing permitted to the Jewes by priviledge, as their ſpoiling of the Aegyptions was, Zeppeon.permiſſion of a leſſer evil to avoid a greater, ſaith famous ‖‖Lyra in Exo. 22, & in Deut, 33.19.Exod 22Lyra: God was contented to ſuffer the Jews to take Uſury of a Stranger, leſt being covetouſly minded they ſhould exerciſe that tyranny towards their own Brethren, and leſt for want of gain they ſhould have refuſed to lend to any, and ſo let their mony lie and ruſt, which is a great evil alſo, as it is mentioned by St. James, your gold and Silver is cankered, James 5.3.

Now this lending upon Uſury was permiſſive only for a time and not to indure for ever, appears from this, that Galatinus reports, as I have once before now, ſaid it out of the Jewiſh Talmud that it was the Judgment of the Jewiſh Rabbins, That in that place in Pſal. 15, 5. He hath not given his mony to Ʋſury. p. 177God did not only forbid Uſurie to the Jews, but alſo towards him that was a Gentile, and what ſaith St. Jerome: it is ſaid in Deut; 23: 19. Thou ſhalt not lend to thy brother upon Ʋſurie: In the beginning of the Law, Ʋſurie is only forbidden to be taken of their brethren in the Prophet Ezech. 18: 12, 13. It is forbidden towards all, **Hieron: in Eſech: 18.A ſentence ſo excellent, as that it deſerves to be repeated again and again, yea to be engraven with letters of Gold upon a Pillar of Marble.

8: But I muſt needs confeſs, that this law is imperative alſo, and not permiſſive only, tho ſo for a time: Thou ſhalt lend to a Stranger, even as he ſaith Thou ſhalt deſtroy this Stranger. Deut: 7: 1: In which reſpect God is both an Indulgent Father, and a ſevere Judge, and a Legiſlator; an Indulgent Father, by his permitting of Uſurie to his Children for their benifit, and a ſevere Judge and Legiſlator, in reſpect of the Stranger, whom he will have conſumed by Uſurie; ſaying, thou ſhalt lend unto that Stranger, upon Ʋſurie, and ſo kill him.

9: And let it be noted. That we ††lex de extraneo eſt politica: Wallitus in Deut: 23: 19.grant the law of Uſurie to be Political, in regard of its Appendix: Unto a Stranger thou mayeſt lend upon Uſurie: Tho in it ſelf it is and hath been proved to be Moral: So that ‖‖Chemnitius: loc. com. de paup.Chemnitius alſo might well ſay, that God in the old Teſtament, ſhoweth himſelf to be a Divine and Legiſlator, which I alſo ſhall preſume to ſay after this faſhion; that he ſheweth himſelf to be a Divine by forbidding Uſurie, and a Legiſlator or Politician, by granting liberty to his people to lend to the Stranger.

10: And I cannot but wonder why the Patrons of Uſurie, are ſo earneſt for this Stranger, which will do them no good at all upon three accounts. For 1: Are we not all brethren; as many of us as are Chriſtians and no Strangers, and ſo conſequently ought not to lend one to another, by vertue of that famous place concerning Brethren and the Stranger. (2.) It doth ſo plainly appear by the aforeſaid arguments, that that Stranger is the Cannanite, and thoſe Nations, which are worn ſo, as that all Uſurie is now abſolutely forbidden towards all, without any exception of any, as Pſal: 15.5 Pro 8. Ezech: 18: 12, 13: and 22: Which is confeſſed by the Jews themſelves, Rabbi Solomon (as Lyra reports it in Exo: 22: 25.) Denies it to be lawful for a Jew to take Ʋſurie of a Stranger, and the Hebrew Gloſs ſaith the ſame.

Num: 11. 11: Even that which they ſo much urge as an p. 178Exception▪ that Uſurie is permitted to a ſtranger makes againſt them; For if it were lawful in it ſelf, it had not need to be permitted; as the putting away a mans Innocent Wife, being in it ſelf and ſimply evil, was notwithſtanding permitted to the Jews.

12. And whereas **Quoted by the Ch: p: 59.Ames and Spanbemius and others of his Authors preſume, to prove the immorality of the Law againſt Uſurie by the Stranger thus. That if it were Moral, and ſimply and in it ſelf Evil; it would not be allowed to a ſtranger. I anſwer, that the exception of a ſtranger doth no more upon the Law againſt Uſurie not to be Moral, and Uſurie not to be unlawful in it ſelf; than allowance of Manſlaughter in time of War doth prove the law forbidding of Murder to be Judicial. For although the law condemning Uſurie be Moral, yet as all the Commands of God, ſo it is to be underſtood with this Limitation, unleſs God otherwiſe determine, it is a Moral law, which forbids Theft as well as Uſurie, which is Theft too, yet if God by his ſpecial Prerogative and Warrant will have the Iſraelites to ſpoyl the Egyptians, they may lawfully do it; if the Lord bid Abraham to kill his only Son, he may and muſt do it, and ſo it is an Uſurers Caſe here.

But ſome will ſay that theſe are extraordinary Caſes; I anſwer, ſo is this matter of this ſtranger.

13: But I had almoſt forgotten one thing which is, that whereas Uſurers Champion tells me that what I ſay is but a bad ſhift, I muſt tell him that it is ſuch a ſhift as hath made one of Uſuries defendant ſo bold as to wreſt the very Scripture, ſaying, that lancecro is put for lenecro, as not being able to bear the weight of ſuch a mighty Argument which is taken from that noble Hebrew Expreſſion, this ſtranger pointed at, viz. the Cannanite, which is Scripture, and no humane invention.

14: In anſwer to a ſaying of his, that my proof overthroweth it ſelf; I ſhall tell him that it doth not; if I may explain my ſelf that I mean the Cannanite Unconverted, and not continuing an Enemy; for a Cannanite might live among the Jews, Civilly and Friendly: and his caſe was altered then, as Divines do ſhew it, he going under the name of a Proſelite at large.

14: His ſaying p. 57. Concerning lending to an Egyptian, as a ſtranger, and that lending to him is not againſt the Law of Nature, to me is ſtrange, becauſe it is an extraordinarie Exception, p. 179that he is lent unto Ames, which he makes his ſecond here, I have anſwered in my ſecond Anſwer.

Num: 12: 15. To his other Authors I ſhall anſwer; 1: Severally 2: Jointly.

1: Severally, and to paſs by Ames whom I anſwered in my 2: Anſwers.

1: I ſhall anſwer a few words to his Grotius, that he does not very excellently, well and fully clear the point as the Champion ſaith, for 1: The Anti-uſurarians do not place the ſtrengh of their Opinion, in a permiſſive right of fact only, and cheifly, but in other more weighty grounds and reaſons, beſides given in my Anſwers premiſed. Nor doth he ſpeak true, affirming that all the Rabbines do otherwiſe underſtand that which is ſaid of the Stranger then the Anti-uſurarians do. For I have clearly proved the contrary by **Beſides whom, others are of the ſame Opinion, ſaith Dr. Willet.Rabbi Solomon. (out of Lyra) who denieth it to be lawful, for a Jew to take Uſurie of a ſtranger, and the Hebrew Gloſs which underſtands that. 15 Pſal: 5. Has not given his mony to Ʋſurie thus: No not to a Gentile, (ſaith he.) And as for Joſephus and Phil…; he doth not tell us what both ſay, ſo that I ſhould be loath to truſt to what he ſaith: and eſpecialy of the Text that it will not bear the ſenſe by me and others given, when as the quite contrary hath been even now moſt clearly proved: To end what I have to ſay of him, I wonder how Grotius can make it good that Chriſt hath left no Preſcript for us in this thing, when the quite contrary can be proved by Luke 6 35.

But I deſire to ſay a little more about Joſephus and Philo, tho he ſay but little, and can ſay but little, I perceive by him ††By whom Conſcience is called a Court or Conſiſtorie, wherein Ʋſurie is condemned ſaith a learned Writer.Philo lived in Chriſts time, and I am ſure could not ſee his Jews lend upon Uſurie to ſtrangers, which were either Romans or Samaritans; not to Romans, becauſe I have formerly ſhewn it they were againſt it. Not to Samaritans; becauſe it is written, the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans, which were of all Nations. John 4: 9. 2 Kings 17: 24: 29. and Joſephus lived ſhortly after, when Tiberius and Cajus, had put down Uſurie; ſo as that the Jews durſt not lend to ſtrangers, nor do we read that they did, and beſides, Joſephus in the mane I am ſure is for me; for thus he writeth. We have a Law among us, that the lender ſhall take no Ʋſurie; makeing no mention at all of brother, or ſtranger.

p. 180Num: 13.16: I thought to have ended here, but becauſe the Champion hath a little more to ſay, I will be ſaying a little more too, he ſaith p. 58: think on it again, what an unlikely ſtorie it is, that they might lend to thoſe Nations whom they were bound utterly to deſtroy, and charged to make no Covenant with them, and ſo forth. whereunto I anſwer. 1. God foreknew that they would not do as he would have them, being a ſtifnecked people, but would let them live among them, and make Covenants with them, in Marriages and otherwiſe; and that (to inſtance in what Grotius mentions) that they and their poſſeritie would be employed by them to do them ſervice, and therefore ſeeing they would needs have them live among them and make Covenants with them; he lets them indeed make covenants with them by Uſurie, Contracts, having reſerved to himſelf his Royal Prerogative to diſpence with his Moral laws at his pleaſure. And then 2: I ſay that, that which Grotius ſaith, that the command of Extirpation was perticular to the men of that Generation will not hold, becauſe that long after Moſes, and when that generation called THIS preſent STRANGER, ſo **Extraneo iſti. Poole in Deut: 23: 19. Ʋbi addit, which th… it be unlawful ſaith he, yet has God by the power of his ſupreme do…on granted and thereby made lawful (for this ſtranger) B.pointed at, was dead, as Moſes alſo was in Joſhua's time, and the Judges time after Joſhua they were extirpated, and to be extirpated ſtill by little and little, and by degrees till they were worn out, as it clearly appears from Judg: 1: 2, 3: 4: 5.

3: And that they were to eat them up, conſume, deſtroy, and kill them, and ſo by Uſurie, even gradually is clear to me by this. Becauſe Uſurie is Murder, ††Calvin in Pſal. 15: 5.Ps 15:5Calvin himſelf makes it Murder. Yea God himſelf makes it Murder. Where? L…w 25: 35. Where God ſpeaking of a ſtranger ſojourning … a Friend, friendly among his people, that they ſhould take …o Uſurie of him: adds That he may live with thee, as if he ſhould ſay; for elſe You kill him: This is by the by. And

17: Whereas the Champion adds: For a farther proof take a Parallel place, Deut: 16: 2, 3.

And what doth he make of it? a mighty Matter, for there is in the Hebrew as Emphatical a … with ſtranger as that which Mr. Jelinger tranſlates That Brother. And whoever did make it ſo Emphatical beſides him; as Mr. Jelinger's is made by many famous Writers by him named? But to the matter. p. 181What can he make of it? and yet I think none underſtands it barely of the Cananite; I reply thus. That is the ſame Cananite, becauſe other Nations did not ſo live among them as they did.

18: As for Diodate, whom he brings in to confirm what he ſaith, to that I anſwer, I have heard him many times read his Divinitie Lectures, and preach too: but never did I hear him plead for **Yea Diodate my friend ſaith expreſsly upon Luke 6: 35. Lend, without any reſpect to your ſelves to exſpect a recompence.Luke 6:35Uſurie, or for this Stranger, or Foreigner; and as for this place by him quoted, he doth not ſo much as mention a Cananite, or the word of a Stranger; but in general Iſrael and Proſelite. See the ††Of whom grave Authors give out this report.Margin alſo. So that I cannot ſee, or any one elſe I think, what the Champion has gotten by his jeering of me; and by ſpeaking ſo much for any ſtranger: and I add, that he hath rather made himſelf like unto thoſe few ‖‖p: 59.Rabbines which plead for any ſtranger and by that for Coveteouſneſs and Uſurie, that it is lawful for Jews to take Uſurie of Chriſtians as of ſtrangers; for ſo do Uſurers and many defendants of Uſurie, take Uſurie of their brethren and fellow Chriſtians, which the very Jews will not take of their brethren.

Num: 14: And now the Champion goes to confute that famous and holy man Mr. Bolton, ſaying I ſhall make bold, (bold ſure enough) to look into Mr. Bolton, to ſee what he replies to this Objection, takeing from the Lords permitting them to lend to ſtrangers &c. wherunto I anſwer. 1: That I do perſwade my ſelf that, if that great man were now a live, he would disdain it as much to anſwer this ſawcy young man, as Mr. Hughes, to one M. E. and other ſuch, and therefore that I may not be ſo weak as to offer to defend ſuch a man as Mr. Bolton is, of whom it may well be ſaid as John 9: 21. He is of age and able to ſpeak for himſelf, and to defend himſelf. Let the Reader but read both, and he will ſoon ſee that this Novice hath not ſpoken right of this thing, as the Lords Servant Bolton; whoſe **Who alſo gave me ample thanks for my Ʋſurer Caſt, even as another great Divine did likewiſe.memorie is and will be bleſſed, when the name of that man who defends Uſurie will be Curſed Jer: 15 10.

2: I add that this godly and learned man Bolton is ſo eſteemed, by learned and godly men; as that * one of above fourſcore, being a great writer himſelf, and an able Preacher, did ſay to me, p. 182that if but Mr. Bolton had written againſt Uſurie it were enough

3: I ſay that this reverend man was ſo highly favoured of God, and ſo well viſited by Jeſus Chriſt his Son, as that he could tell his Pariſhoners, coming to viſit him, when he lay upon his death bed: I am as full of Chriſt as my heart can hold. So that any honeſt Reader will infinitely rather beleive what he ſaith in this Uſurie matter, then one that cannot tell us of ſuch an experience of Chriſts love, and I do verily beleive, that the end of this mans preſent aſſaulting of this grave, godly and gratious man, will prove like M. S. aſſaulting him; who by chailenging Mr. Bolton, thruſt himſelf upon the greateſt infelicity of War, as firſt to be diſarmed, and afterwards to be killed in the field with his own Weapon, for we hear no more of M. S.

Only this I muſt ſuper-add, that divers things which this Champion goes to confute, are anſwered in my 17 Anſwers premiſed, and that I count it an honour to have ſuch a worthy Champion in this War, in which this defendant of Uſurie would fain overthrow me, if he could, yea, thinks that he hath overthrown, confuted and fully anſwered him and me, as it appeareth by his brags in the cloſe of this digreſſion, which is this Diverſion may ſerve to evidence, that Mr. Bolton is not unanſwerable. But I reſume to anſwer Mr. Bolton in Mr. Jelinger. And is not this a Champion indeed, that can ſo bravely wage war againſt ſo great a warrior againſt Uſuries Army, and not me only?

Num. 15 3. Object. Doth not Chriſt allow of Uſurie when he ſaith, Matt. 25.27. Thou oughteſt to have put my mony to Ʋſurie. His Anſwer is; The words are part of a Parable, and Symbolick Scripture is not Argumentative. Reply. I hope he will grant from hence, that Chriſt is at Metaphorical Uſurer &c. whereunto I have anſwered already but he proceeds, ſaying, that he never thought much ſtrength to he in that text for Uſurie. Whereunto I anſwer 1. He grants me as much as I can deſire; and 2. Makes his Doctor **Againſt whoſe ſingle judgment I oppoſe the joint judgment of the godly Miniſters of France, who in a French Treatiſe againſt dancing. p. 131, Couple Ʋſurie with dancing, and ſay, that thoſe laws in Matt. 11.16. and Luke 15.25. proves no more the ſinfullneſs of Dancing than the words in Matt. 25.17. concerning Ʋſurie, do prove the lawfullneſs of Ʋſurie. And the Geneva Profeſſors and Miniſters of their French Annotations appro…e ſaid place in Mat. 25.17. they likewiſe exſpreſly that not thereby approve of Ʋſurie.Matt 11:16Luke 15:25Matt 25:17A p. 183meſius, who ſtands upon that place, a weak man not to be truſted unto very much in this Uſurie matter. Whereunto

3. Ile add this only, becauſe ſome of the vulgar ſort of Uſurers inſiſt much upon the word Uſurie, uſed in that Text, that the Arabick leaves out that word Uſurie, and in the room of it renders the words thus, cum lucro ſuo. With its gain, and that the antient Fathers did call their very Preaching Uſurie: and 3. that Ames himſelf makes it only probable that Chriſt meant Ʋſurie there as we underſtand it in comon ſpeech.

And 4. That Expoſitors underſtand grace even to be employed and the yealding good works and gifts.

5. Uſurie by God is forbidden to the Poor only; but lending to the Rich is lawful &c.

**Orig. Hom. 3. in Pſal. 31. Dioniſ. in Pſal. 15. Theophil. in Matt. 25. Mr. Jelinger.Ps 31Ps 15Matt 25I anſwer, this is a very ſpecious plea, I confeſs, but yet I hope through mercy to overthrow it.

1. The moſt wiſe God foreſeeing how ſome would abuſe poor people, leave out the poor in the repetition of his laws Deut. 23.29. Thou ſhalt not lend to Ʋsurie to thy Brother. And is not the rich our brother too? Reply. I commend his after ſight in finding out ſuch an anſwer as this, it ſhewing his ſkill in ſecrets &c,

For anſwer whereunto I ſay that, tho he deals jeeringly with me, I will deal ſeriouſly with him, and tell him, that if it be a fault in me to tell of Gods foreſight here; he is guilty of the ſame fault in his Pamphlet, making uſe of the ſame foreſight as I do here ††God, foreſeeing in his wiſdom how men would cavil at the word Neſheck, hath properly exſpreſſed his meaning by the Exegetical word Vetarbith Doctor Fenton.and that a wiſer man than he or I uſed the like Expreſſion; ſee the ‖ Margin.

2. That I make rich and poor alike in this; that they are Brothers and not as he feigns, that I do, for I know as well as he that there is a vaſt difference between rich and poor in reſpect of their outward Eſtates, and ſo grant that we are not to lend to the rich, for them to oppreſs others in bargaining, as he alleadges my words, and ſo with heart and good will ſubſcribe to Solomons words Pro. 22.16. And again I confeſs that I make them alike in this, that we muſt not lend to either upon Uſurie, becauſe God hath no where in all the Bible allowed Uſurie, to be taken and exacted of the rich, if the Champion can p. 184ſhew me any, let him. Which has cauſed **In haec verba, abſque uſura id quo indiget commodabis, dicit p. 218. Non ſolum pauperi, ſed etiam Diviti. Not only to the poor but alſo to the rich thou ſhalt lend. Sic Toſtatus. So Capel. in his App. p. 292. Nor can they ſhew a place where Ʋſurie is granted to a rich man.Toſtatus alſo to ſay as I do, ſee my Margin for it.

Num. 17.3. Whereas he Adds. But to ſhew further that the man is out in his reckoning, and that God did leave out the Poor in the repetition of the law concerning lending upon any ſuch account, you ſhall find expreſs mention made in the buſineſs of lending in this ſame Book Deut. 15 7, 8. &c.

I anſwer 1. That it is enough for me; that in his Repititional lawes, and in the chiefeſt concerning Uſurie he leaves out the poor, one ſuch great Sun is ſufficient to give light to this great thing, and that very place Deut. 15.7, 8. Which I have formerly alleadged for myſelf as making for me, and Biſhop Downams concerning the ſame place may be ſeen p. 279. And to come nearer home, that expreſſion in Deut. 23.19. concerning victuals makes not for him; ſo as to conclude that the poor is intended, as having moſt need of borrowing Victuals, becauſe it is added Ʋſurie: Of any thing that is lent upon Ʋſurie. And the word Victuals, by others is rendred fruges, or frumentum, Corn, which people of good faſhion borrow too. And laſtly that place in ††And in the 12. verſe, the poor comes in with Violence, with the Pledge, and with Idols before Ʋ ſurie c…mes in.18 Ezech. 17. Will not ſerve his turn neither, becauſe; The taking of the hand from the Poor is one thing, and the taking of Uſurie and increaſe is another, tho joyned together in one verſe, even as Luke 21.34. Surfetting and Drunkenneſs, and Cares; where Surfetting is one thing, Drunkenneſs another, Cares another and not the ſame, and ſee alſo Heb. 13.4. Whoremongers and Adulterers God will Judge. And 2. I anſwer, and do not men uſually rather give then lend victuals and bread to poor people?

3. Neither Zanchie nor Rivet do his buſineſs; for neither of them prove what they ſay, but only confine the Text, in Deut. 23.14, ſo as he does, to victuals, only leaving out Corn and Bread, which are as I ſaid, is and may be lent to ſuch as is well to paſs, and is alſo to be underſtood (as greater men than themſelves are) avouch it, viz. Great Auſtin twiſe and great Dr. Themnitius, who has examined and confuted the great Council of Trent, and great Dr. Sanders, and others.

p. 1854. Whereas he Adds. The law ſaith, Thou ſhalt not lend to thy Brother, that is waxen poor with thee. i. e. Saith Mr. Jelinger in his Comment upon it; Thou ſhalt not lend to the poor or rich upon Uſury. This is a Comment indeed. My Reply is this. That he wrongs me in it, Biſhop Jewel in his Comment upon that place, couples rich and poor, ſo ſaying: He is thy Brother, whether he is rich or poor.

My words are theſe upon Deut. 23.19 Mark, Brother, and is not the rich thy brother too (who can deny it) I pray tell thou, who doſt ſo ſtoutly defend thy Uſury, and hear what learned Biſhop Jewel even now ſaith in this Caſe, and which this Champion fathers upon me, as if I ſhould ſay, as he ſaith, upon the law, which as he tels us ſaith, thou ſhalt not lend upon Uſury to thy brother, which is waxen poor with thee, when I ſpeak upon Deut. 23.19. and is this fair dealing?

2. He wrongs me, leaving out here near 80. lines untoucht, and unanſwered in p. 35, 36, 37. So that he gives me juſt cauſe to deal with him ſo too.

3. And beſides, becauſe he puts me ſo to it to defend my ſelf, as well as I may in this weighty matter, ſo overskipping what St. Baſil, Lira, and Biſhop Jewel ſay, I will now ſay a little more than I thought to ſay, to anſwer more fully to his preceding Replies. And firſt, That, tho in places by him named, expreſs mention is made of the poor, yet in others (beſides Deut. 25.15.) as namely in Pſal. 15. Prov. 20.8. Ezek. 22.12. and Luke 6.35. there is noted.

2. That it is confeſſed by **Joſephus contra A. vion.Joſephus, that the Jews have a law, as I ſaid once already, that the lender ſhall take no Uſury, making no exception of the poor at all.

3. And why ſhould thoſe places which mention the poor rather reſtrain the other which make mention of them, than the other, which make no mention of them ſhould enlarge them which name them, eſpecially if we conſider, that thoſe places which mention not the poor were the latter written, and that Divines have a Rule; which ſaith, that latter books were written ſomewhat to this purpoſe, that they might be Interpreters and Expoſitors of the former.

Where Note, how I go to work to ſtop gaps and mouths by this rule, and by an obſervation of mine too, that the Pſalms and ſo the 15. and Ezekiel eſpecially thoſe 2. and the Proverbs, and Luke 6.35. Were written after thoſe which mention p. 186the poor, ſo that now I do not only ſtand upon Deut. 23.19. where mention is made of Victualls, which ſome of the Church great Authors ſo much ſtand upon, which I wonder at, that wiſe men ſhould do ſo; I ſay again, I do not only Inſiſt on that, but to cut off all other Cavils whatſoever, upon others alſo.

4, I ſay farther, that there is great reaſon for it, why there ſhould be ſo often mention made of the poor; becauſe 1. That ſhews what care God takes of the poor, even as he doth for Orphans, and Widdows alſo and Strangers. And 2. becauſe they are ſo much and ſo often oppreſſed by the men of this wicked world; where let me recite the words of the famous Doctor **Chemnit. Loc. Summum de paupert. a. 6.Chemnitius to ſecond me.

Wheras, (ſaith he) in ſome certain Teſtimonies of Scripture concerning Ʋſury, there is mention made of the poor by name, that is done for the ſame reaſon for which in the ſixt and eight Commandments the Widdows, Orphans, and poor folks are commonly recited by name, that no injury ſhould be offered unto them; yet it follows not from thence that an injury may be done to married perſons, to mighty men, to rich men &c. is no ſin; Even ſo it is in the Caſe of Uſury.

Num. 19.5. And that it may more fully appear, who is meant by the brother in Deut. 23.19. I will at preſent name two great men more, to ballance his leſſer, who tell us, what that brother is.

The firſt ſhall be that foreſaid great and antient Father, ††Clemens Alexand. Strom. l. 2. Tho.Clemens Alexandrine, who lived near to the Apoſtles time, and ſaith, The law forbids to lend to Ʋſury to our brother under the Name of a Brother, Comprehending not only him which was born of the ſame Parents, but him alſo which was of the ſame Tribe, and of the ſame Opinion, and partaker of the ſame word. I muſt repeat his words, becauſe the Chapter repeats his.

2. Great ‖‖Aquinas. part. 3. q. 79 a 1.Aquinas upon Deut. 23.19. We ought to count every man to be a Brother.

3. Dr. Sanders. The Carnal Jews had certain Infidels to their enemies, whom as they might kill, ſo might they oppreſs them with Ʋſury; but now ſeing every man is both our neighbour and our Brother, we may not take Ʋſury of any man at all.

5. And, becauſe they ſtand much upon a needy brother and decayed, I will ſet down here, the words of Renowned p. 187Biſhop Downam, The ſignification of a needy brother is not to be reſtrained to them which are of baſe condition, but is to be extended to all thoſe who, being of good callings, are come behind hand, or faln into need, not having means of their own to ſupply their wants; I add, and ſuch are many which Ʋſurers lend unto. The Biſhop goes on and ſaith, for if men have means of their own, they ought not to borrow, which makes againſt thoſe vile wretches, which will borrow and lend the ſamd mony again to profit, for 8. in the 100. themſelves paying but 6. which is oppreſſion.

Num. 20.6. I hope the Ch. will let me note alſo the 3. expreſſions by him noted Levit. 25.35, 36. concerning the poor and decayed brother, and the reaſon therunto annexed, as namely, this that he which is called our brother and poor, is alſo called one faln in decay, mark, a decayed brother not a begger, which muſt be relieved by Alms; but back handed, as a Gentleman, or Farmer, by borrowing and other miſhaps may come ſo to be, and yet have Land or Leaſe, as thoſe in Nehemiah, of whom next.

2. That of ſuch a one we muſt not take any thing above the Principal, for ſo the words run, of ſuch a one thou ſhalt not take more then thou didſt deliver, as ſome Tranſlations render the ſame, whereupon a great Author ſaith, Hear whom we are forbidden to bite, we are now forbidden to take any more than was delivered unto him; for he that takes one Penny more than he delivered; wrings and bites him as much as that Penny comes too.

3. And upon the 36. verſe containing the reaſon, Note what may be the meaning of it; that he may live with thee; as if he ſhould ſay, for elſe how can he live? Uſury will kill him, if thou take Uſury of him, therefore take no Uſury of thy decayed brother.

7. The ſeveral other laws which he ſpeaks of in the ſame 68. page, are not at all againſt me, nor for him, becauſe the laws for the poor are not denied.

8. But as I ſaid, let him prove by any place of Scripture in all the Bible that becauſe we muſt not lend to the poor upon Uſury, therefore we may lend upon Uſury to the rich; let him ſhew the place.

9. And here, becauſe he takes his advantages by Authors which he cites, as holding it lawful to lend upon Uſury to the rich, becauſe we may not to the poor.

I will take advantages alſo, and match his Authors with Authors far exceeding his for age and Renown.

As Namely 1. of the Old Holy Fathers and of our modern Writers.

p. 1881. Saint Auſtin by **Humfr. in vita Jewelli. p. 22…ſome called the wiſeſt man in his time, is againſt all Uſury without any exception of Uſury taken by the rich.

2. And Saint ††Downam. upon Pſal. ….Baſil, who was ſuch a holy and ſelf denying man, as that he gave all that he had to the poor, and being a bitter enemy to Uſurers, deſcribes them thus: Ʋſurers go thus to work, to entice rich young heirs; they employ their own Creatures to underſtand their domeſtick affairs, and neceſſities, They tell them there is ſuch a Barton to be ſold, and an ample houſe, they extol its revenews, perſwade them to buy it; They anſwer that they have no mony to buy it; Thereupon they offer their own, ſaying, uſe it as your own; you will pay us of the incomes of the ſame Barton; They pretend to other mens land to entice the young Gentleman to ſpoil him of his own. Thus holy Antiquity has been againſt lending upon Ʋſury to the rich, and ſo are and have been our beſt new writers, viz.

1. Famous Biſhop Jewel, as Humphries has it, writes thus, what manner of Logick is this, a man may not take Ʋſury of the poor; ergo he may take Ʋſury of the rich, non ſequitur: It follows not in art, let us ſee the like in other examples, Solomon ſaith, Prov. 22.22. Rob not the poor becauſe he is poor, (juſt as I ſay ſo ſaith he) ſhall I thence conclude, therefore I may rob the rich, becauſe he is rich; ſo when Moſes ſaith lend not to the poor upon Ʋſury; doth it therefore follow, Therefore I may lend upon Ʋſury to the rich, nothing leſs, it carries no Conſequecne at all.

2. Biſhop ‖‖Toſtatus in Deut,Downam Deuter. 23.19. There is no mention made of the poor, but all Uſury is forbidden towards any, either Iſraelite or Proſelite, or as Clemens Alexandrine ſpeaks, foreign and in this general ſence including both rich and poor, the learned among the Jews have ſo underſtood this law, where note that here is now Antiquity and Authority.

3. Moſs. If the law of lending to the poor without Ʋſury, ſhould Infer the lawfullneſs of lending to the rich upon Ʋſury; then it is evident that Gods intendment in thoſe laws for the benefit of the poor, ſhould rather prove a hurt and hindrance unto them. For who will lend to the poor for nothing, that might lawfully lend to the rich for Uſury?

4. Toſtatus. * Not only to the poor, but alſo to the … thou ſhalt lend without Ʋſury.

p. 1895. Powel Anſwers that Objection from Exo. 22.25. Lev. 28, 35. For not lending to the poor upon Ʋſury thus, ergo, we may lend to the rich, This is no good Conſequence. The law ſaith Deut. 27.24. Curſed is he that ſmiteth his Neighbour ſecretly, ergo it is lawful to ſmite him openly.

6. ††Capel, in his App. conc. Ʋ ſury p. 292.Capel. No opreſſion is like to this to oppreſs a poor man; yet I hope it is a ſin to oppreſs the rich becauſe he is rich.

Num. 22. In the next place let us go on with him to Nehemiah: and what were thoſe Uſurers which Nehemiah ſo condemns for Uſury, were they not ſuch as lent to them that had Lands, Vineyards &c.

Reply. Whether they were to be called poor or no, it ſeems they were for the time Neceſſitous and much ſtraitned, they would not elſe have morgaged their lands to buy Corn and things neceſſary for a livelyhood, nor have ſuffered their Sons and Daughters to have been brought into bondage: Here I conſult Rivet. &c. and then to anſwer once for all, let it be conſidered, whether the caſe were not extraordinary &c.

Whereunto I anſwer 1. That his reply is a poor come of, becauſe, tho they were neceſſitous yet were they landed, and landed even then, when they borrowed, for their land they morgaged when they borrowed verſ. 3. and then others come which ſaid, we have borrowed mony for the Kings tribute, and that upon our lands and vineyards; Mark 1. our lands and vineyards in the Plural, which may imply that they had much land ſome of them, if not all, tho morgaged.

2. Our, becauſe the propriety was theirs in the land tho morgaged.

3. We borrowed mony upon our lands and vineyards verſ. 4. Note, they which did not morgage, borrowed and took up mony upon their lands, binding them to the Uſurers, as many Neceſſitous landed men do now, and therefore where is the Ch. now?

O ſaith he, Rivet is of my ſide. Reply, but you cite him in Latin, and I do not mean to tranſlate him for you, ſo that he can do the vulgar no good; but if he were Enliſhed, it would be the ſame, for he is not againſt me, who ſay, as he ſaith, even the very ſame that we ſhould lend freely to the neceſſitons, which thoſe Uſurers in Nehemiah would not do, but would have Uſe of ſuch Neceſſitons, landed men, which our Uſurers alſo will have.

p. 190**Powel p. 42. mihi p. 218.Num. 23. But he has one ſhift more, that the Caſe in Nehemiah was extraordinary, and how was it extraordinary? it is as if Ordinary Chriſtians ſhould be preſt to praying ſeven times a day, becauſe David ſaid ſo often he would pray, or to require of every one ſolemn prayers three times a day becauſe **To which devotions he might have aded the great devotion of the Eunuchs, which to go to Jerus;alem to worſhip, went 4000 miles as Doctor Cave computeth it in his lives of the Fathers.Daniel did ſo, all which makes againſt him, becauſe neither the one nor the other is ſuch an extraordinary buſineſs, becauſe there have been of late times thoſe, which have prayed ſix times a day uſually, as bleſſed Bolton, ††Bagſhaw in his life.witneſs his life; and as for Daniel, of him it is ſaid that he prayed three times, ‖‖which ſheweth that it was his ordinary practice.as he did aforetime, Dan. 6, 10. So that by theſe very examples he makes the Caſe in Nehemiah, but an ordinary thing, but me he aims at, in all thoſe extraordinory things, which he ſpeaks of, to diſgrace me, and make me a ſpectacle to men and Angels, and a ſign and wonder in Iſrael, and the Drunkards ſong; for ſo he goes on with his extraordinary things and wonders, as to riſe at midnight, or before day becauſe I deſire to do ſo, as David did, and my Saviour did, who roſe a great while before day and prayed Mark 1.35. me, me, he has an aim unto, I ſay, as being the man of his indignation, becauſe I cry down his great Diana for ſo he goes on; ſome ſuch extraordinary Zeal has prompted this Author to exhort his readers in Prayer, to reach forth their arms as high as they can, or to fall all along upon the ground in prayer in their own houſes and in their ſeveral rooms, where they are wont to poor out their prayers, becauſe he was wont to do ſo himſelf; theſe being geſtures becoming none but perſons of a Giant like affections &c. And the like affection induced him to will every ordinary Chriſtian to reſolve thus; faſting and humiliation days I will keep by the ſame divine power to the Lord my God at leaſt once a month, and before the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, and when there is great need, and at other times alſo; but where to find an example for this (as for ſome afore) I know not, unleſs it be taken from the Phariſees that faſted twice a week &c. Whereunto I anſwer. Loe, how Iſmael-like he mocks me, and alſo Cenſures both p. 191me and all the godly ones that faſt ſo, pray ſo, reſolve ſo, as others before them have done. But I hope to come of withhonour after all his diſgracing jeers and cruel mockings, ſo called Hebr. 11.36.) caſt after me, with the help of my God, whom I ſerve, and do reſolve to ſerve day and night.

And 1. the reaching forth of the hand or arm in challenging God to make his promiſes good; I have from thoſe worthy men Doctor ††Matt. 26.39. he fell upon his face.Matt 26:39Abbot, and Mr Bolton, who in his Direct. for right comforting afflicted Conſciences, writes of one Sprot who did ſo, when he died. See the ‖‖Which alſo fell down flat before the Lord.Margin for it.

Now let the Ch. go and challenge Mr. Bolton and Doctor Abbot why they would write ſo.

2. For often praying and lying on the ground and upon the face, I have from Abraham Gen. 17.3. from David, yea from **His words at full are theſe George Sprat Notary in Aimouth at his death ſaid thus to Chriſt, Thou haſt left me this comfort in thy word, Matt. 11.28. come unto me all &c. And Lord I am heavy loaden with my ſins, I am ready to ſink even into Hell without thou in mercy put out thine hand and deliver me; and with that thruſt out one of his hands, and reaching it as high as he could, with a loud voyce and ſtrained, cried I challenge thee by thy promiſe, which thou haſt made, that thou perform it unto me. Thus this great Doctor reports this.Matt 11:28Chriſt himſelf who ſo fell upon the ground, and prayed: from all the Elders of Iſrael who ſo fell upon their faces before the Lord, joyning with Joſhua in that poſture praying, as you may ſee Joſ. verſe 7. Alas O Lord God &c. And from Moſes Numb. 14 5. Then Moſes and Aaron fell on their faces before all the aſſembly of the Congregation of the Children of Iſrael: and from that good people **in S. F. p. 24,in 2. Mach. 10.4. and from † a certain holy Miniſter whom his wife, which was an excellent woman often has found by night lying on the ground, weeping and wreſtling with God, even in cold winter nights, (as ſaith my Author) and from that wonderfull Miniſter P. S. in S. p. page 37. who by a Convert of his was found by night lying in a garden upon the ground, and praying ſo earneſtly as that God ſent an Hoaſt of Angels to him to bring him an anſwer from the Lord, which made him cry out and ſay, O what am I, being Duſt and Aſhes, that the holy Miniſtring Spirits ſhould be ſent to deliver a meſſage and an anſwer to my prayers. Let the Ch. now go, and jeer theſe holy Miniſters, p. 192which care not for him, being above him in endleſs glorie▪ But let me tell my Readers, that I do not **For I know that our acceptable ſervice conſiſts not in external geſtures, and in ſerving God within, as that Author Potho Prumiculis well inculcates lib. 5. de dono Dei. Intus Deo offertur omne Deo acceptabile munus.preſs all this upon any, tho I mention it, and tho I deſire to imitate ſuch pious ſouls my ſelf.

3. For reſolving to faſt monthly, or weekly, I have (beſides Matt. 9.15. Then ſhall they faſt, and the 2. Cor. 11 27. In faſting often) this ground when it pleaſed God to reveal his Son to me in Germany, and I returned home from a Sermon after joy unſpeakable, I reſolved to faſt twice a week, and therefore dare not do otherwiſe, and as for others I force none, but only adviſe men ſo to do, even as I do not force any to riſe before day, tho I deſire to do ſo; And to ſay a little more of faſting, I can bring againſt this Champions cruel mockings, and cenſurings, great ††In my twelfth Reſolut. ſet down in my Reſolution Table,Calvin, who did faſt Ten years together, abſtaining from meat till Even, and ſpending his time in Preaching, Praying, reading, and writing, which is more than once a week, and therefore by my great friend Doctor Rivet is ſo extold, as that he brings in a great Jeſuit for it, ſaying, that Calvin was Ʋn Grand jeuneur, in french, that is a great faſter, and will the Ch. ſay that he was a Phariſee too?

And beſides, I know a godly Miniſter living not far from me, who faſts every week, as well as my ſelf, and is highly applauded and commended for it, and by no body accounted a Phariſee; Unleſs he be ſo looked upon by him that accounts me ſo: ‖‖With whom I may joyn the Lord Harrington, who was a great and Renowned Father too, faſting not only monthly before the Sacrament, but other days likewiſe. Clark. in his life p. 60.61. So Picus Mirandula, who was ſuch a great Faſter too, as his Nephew, and Boeſardus in his Bibliotheca reports.ſee the Margin alſo.

Well, this I will ſay now laſt of all, concerning all this that I meet with ſuch comfort, ſuch delight, ſuch joy, ſuch experiences p. 193**I add that if this man had but read Ferbis, and Figurius, extolling a Couſin of Cardinal Baronius faſting and praying three days together, when he was irreſiſtably moved to diſcover a Plot for which he had received Commiſſion from the Pope to all Popiſh Kings and Princes for the extirpating of the Reformed Religion, he would not have jeered me for this Faſting ſo.of Chriſts love; ſuch gyantlike affections, as he jeeringly calls them; as that if the whole world were turned into a lump of gold, and I might have it, if I would give over ſuch practiſes, I would utterly reject it; and I truſt in God, that I ſhall never give them over, during my natural life, for all the jeers and cenſures of any ſcoffing Iſmaelite, becauſe of that ſweetneſs and joy which I find and feel therein. So help me, O my God.

But I deſire now to return to Nehemiah (from whence the Ch. hath drawn me by his cruel mockings) fetcht and forcably drawn in by the hair, becauſe he is not willing to hear much of him.

And that which I have to ſay of h im is this;

1. That he is ſuch an eye ſore to Uſurers, and their Defendents, as that they have attempted to make him an Uſurer too, falſly rendring the holy Scripture thus, as Biſhop **Biſhop Downam upon Pſal. 15. p. 215.Ps 15Downam ſets down their wreſted Tranſlation thus, So the Author of the Engliſh Treatiſe reads ver. 10. For even I, my Brethren and my ſervants did lend them upon Ʋſury, mony and corn. O dreadful, to prove the lawfulneſs of Uſury by the Example of Nehemiah, which makes me exclaim, Good Lord, what man will not do to uphold curſed Uſury, they will wreſt thy holy Scripture for it; and falſly tranſlate it: well thus Uſurers abuſe Scripture it ſelf, as in lenecro for lanecro, ſo in this alſo to make Nehemiah, that bitter enemy to all Uſury an Uſurer too, even as they will needs make me a Uſurer too, who never lent one pound or peny upon Uſury in all my life time.

Numb. 26. And becauſe the Ch. would fain ſet him againſt me, by ſaying that they had mortgaged their Eſtates, and ſuffered their Sons and Daughters to be brought into Bondage, &c. to make them poor, therefore I will now let him ſee, that he is one of the beſt Friends that I have, becauſe he furniſhes me with ſo many mighty arguments againſt Uſurers and Uſury, as I ſhall now ſet down.

For firſt tho he tells of Mortgages and bondage of the borrowers Sons and Daughters, yet ſtill he makes them owners of their Lands, as I have ſhewn already; and as for the bondage, we know, that mens Sons may be in bondage, being taken by Turks and other Foes, when their Parents are landed men, but want money to redeem them, and cannot be called poor.

2. He forbids Uſury expreſly and abſolutely, without excepting p. 149the Rich, ſaying, I pray you, let us leave off this Ʋſury, ver. 10.

3. He ſaith to the Nobles, rebuking them, you exact Ʋſury every one of his Brother, ver. 7. without naming rich or poor, but Brother only, which might not be poor, and calling Uſe exacting, to denote the cruelty of it.

4. He ſhook his lap, and ſaid, ſo God ſhake out every man from his houſe, and from his labour, that performes not this promiſe, which was that they would do as he had ſaid, let us leave off this Ʋſury, ver. 10. O dreadful, this methinks ſhould make Ʋſurers tremble for fear, leſt they be ſhaken out of all too.

5. It is not good that you do, he ſaith further to them, to ſhew that Uſury is an evil, and therefore unlawful.

6. He tells them, Ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God? intimating by it, that Uſurers do not fear God, ver. 9.

7. Adding, becauſe of the reproach of the Heathen our enemies, he ſhews what, a reproachful thing Uſury is, becauſe Gods enemies reproach ſuch for it, as profeſs themſelves to be the people of God, and yet will be Uſurers▪

8. He calls Uſury, foreign a Burden, becauſe it is a Burden to the Borrower indeed, and to defeat that Cavil, which Uſurers uſe, pretending they are no Uſurers, becauſe they are no biting Oppreſſors, and that the Uſury in the 15 Pſalm condemned and ſo in other Scriptures, is Neſheck, which has cauſed a defendent of Uſury to write a little Book, called called the execution of Neſheck, that is biting, which, becauſe the Spirit of the Lord foreknew Nehemiah muſt call Uſury foreign, a burden, and not Neſheck biting, to cut of that new diſtinction between biting and toothleſs Uſury, and that after Moſes, and after David, and after Solomon, and that after Ezekiel, and the reſt of the more ancient pen-men of the Scripture, which is very remarkable.

Num. 27.9. He commands the Uſurers to make reſtitution, and they promiſe him to do as he had ſaid, and add we will require nothing of them, as thou haſt ſaid, ver. 12. Mark 1. we will require NOTHING. 2. as thou haſt ſaid, which ſhews that he would have them take nothing, becauſe they ſay expreſly, as thou haſt ſaid, ſee alſo, ver. 10. let us leave off this Ʋſury, as if he ſhould ſay this taking of more then was lent, …s this verſe makes it evident; beſides many other Scriptures: So they agree then both, even Nehemiah and the Uſurers upon NOTHING to be uſuriouſly given, or taken for mony lent, as p. 195**Ʋſura agros & praedia onerat intolerabili exactione, Aretius.if they had ſeen or heard the words of Chriſt, when he ſpake them, Luke 6.35. Lend, hoping for nothing from thence; which makes as much for me alſo as any thing I have yet ſaid of Nehemiah, only let me add by the by, that thoſe Uſurers as bad as they were, yet are not ſo bad as Uſurers are now, for they made reſtitution, even a full reſtitution of lands, and monies, and other things, which they had taken, ver. 12. which our Chriſtian Uſurers will not do.

10. And here becauſe I am faln upon reſtitution, I will ſay a little more about it, Viz That after reſtitution made of their Lands, Vineyards, Houſes, Mony, Corn, Oile, they were landed men indeed, not only de jure, of Right, but alſo de facto, really and indeed, and ſo conſequently well to paſs indeed, which notwithſtanding the ſaid Uſurers would require NOTHING of them, as Nehemiah has ſaid; O how plainly therefore Nehemiah is for me. O what a friend he is to me among ſo many enemies, that are againſt me!

11. But yet laſtly I will be ſo courteous to the Chriſtian lender, as to grant that it is all the reaſon in the world, that the Rich, which has well gotten by his mony, ſhould be thankful, and let the honeſt lender have part of his honeſt gain, and that he may lawfully take, when it comes freely and unexpectedly offered and given to him, as I have formerly ſhewn, ſo that at preſent I will only add what a worthy Author ſaith to the ſame effect. But it is otherwiſe if any Man give or offer any thing not in reſpect of the loan, but to ſhew himſelf mindful of a good return received, for that which is ſo offered may be lawfully taken without any uſury committed, &c. So that there be no fraud uſed therein, but the intent and Conſcience of the Receiver be upright and free in that behalf.

But let us go on with the Champion.

1. What Mr. Jelinger ſaith is a fallacy.

Whereunto I anſwer, ſo both his replies avail nothing; Not that to the 1. Fallacy, becauſe what he ſaith, that the Uſury in Scripture is forbidden only with reſpect to the poor, is falſe, as it has been ſhewn.

So that concerning the Rich he lacks proof;

And ſo is his reply to the fallaey of Conſequence, for as much as it has been by me ſufficiently proved, that all Uſury properly ſo called is a moral evil, and againſt the Law of **As Toſtatus aſſerts it in Deut. 23. p. 3 18.Deut 23Nature, and whereas be ſaith, that I do prudently leave out the reaſon why the poor ſhould not be robbed, becauſe he is poor; I anſwer, that I left p. 196out, becauſe I ſaw there was no reaſon why I ſhould enlarge my ſelf upon it, as a thing making againſt me, when it doth not, for I hold with old Mr. **Who alſo holds with me in Deut, 23.19.Diodate, whom he quotes upon it, only this I add, that as he ſaith of Robbery, that, as it is forbidden to all, ſo is Uſury, as it hath been proved out of Deut. 23.19. where that which is moral in that Law, runs thus, Thou ſhalt not lend to thy Brother (mark Brother, whether he be rich or poor) upon uſury.

And what he quotes out of Rivet availeth him nothing neither, becauſe Rivet takes this for an abſolute verity, that the things mentioned by the Engliſh Biſhops, and by him oppoſed are in themſelves evil, (which is not denied) but as for Uſury that is not ſo, when that which he names laſt, Uſury I mean, is as much in it ſelf evil as the former, as it has been convincingly demonſtrated: The whole ſentence taken out of Rivet I ſhall not write, becauſe it is ſet down in Latin, and I do not owe the Ch. ſo much ſervice as to tranſlate it.

He tells us from Deut. 23.19. That the Stranger is excepted and not the Rich, whereas, if God would have granted it lawful to lend to the Rich, there had been a fit place to be named as wel as the Stranger: His reply is, What ſhall I call it but ſaucineſs, &c. Anſwer, Not ſuch ſaucineſs as that of his Brethren, which wreſt the Scriptures, and put lenecro for lanecro in this ſame place now in hand, Deut. 23.19. and none for nothing in Chriſts own ſaying lend looking for nothing from thence, Luke 6.35. which is ſaucineſs indeed, yea, the higheſt injury offered to Chriſt: But in my Saying, how can there be any ſaucineſs or injury, when God might have ſo eaſily done it, but would not, becauſe there was no need, no more than there was for Chriſt to ſay lend without Ʋſury, when he ſpake plainly ſaying, lend hoping for nothing.

Numb. 29.2. Ʋſurers reply, Divers Presbyterian Miniſters allow of uſe taken from the rich.

1. Anſwer, I have named ſeveral before, and divers others might be named, Rivet names ſeveral, Zanchy ſaith their number is almoſt infinite. Windeline affirms, it is held by moſt moderne Divines, &c. even by B. Hall, the Pillar he leans on, fails him, and ſo forth: Whereunto I anſwer.

1. That I alſo have named ſeveral before; and more I will name now to …allance, yea, to outballance his; which methinks ſpeaks either too little, or too faſt. Too little, as naming but a few, or not relating what they ſay, or ſpeak too faſt; as p. 197when one of them ſaith their number is almoſt infinite: for which almoſt I will not blame him, becauſe I know what elſe I ſhould have ſaid; and ſo when Windeline affirms it; as held by moſt modern Divines, which I much wonder at, if he mean Uſury properly ſo called; for my friends will tell him, and prove the contrary, as for example, **Dr. Fenton, p. 259. Whom Filburn by his catches at ſome of his ſayings is not able to confute, as the learned Reader may eaſily ſee it.Dr. Fenton, that famous London Miniſter, who writes thus of Uſury.

A practice, which has no approbation of God in Scripture, nor any Church that is, or ever was upon the face of the Earth.

And Mr. ††Gabriel Powel p, 52.Gabriel Powel, No Writer, that either I could ſee or hear of, ever allowed of Ʋſury.

So Keckerman, All the Greek and Latin Fathers, and almoſt all our Reformed Divines hold Ʋſury to be a Sin.

And to anſwer Windelines brags eſpecially, viz. It is held by Lawyers and moral Philoſophers, † that learned Oxford Scholar Powel ſaith thus, Philoſophers have condemned it, Poets have exclaimed againſt it, the Civil Law forbids lending upon Ʋſury, by the ‖‖Where the Words of the famous Jer. Taylor in his Ductor Dub 1. 196. is remembred, The Church forbids Uſury, and in this Caſe the Canon Laws are to be preferred.Canon Law alſo it is forbidden.

Now let the Reader chuſe, which he will believe an Engliſh Scholar which is his Country man, or this Stranger.

So the renowned Biſhop Downam, which ſaith this of our Engliſh Divines, in anſwer to the Champion about Epiſcopal Divines. The godly learned Divines of this Age, and namely of this our Church, do for the moſt part inveigh againſt Ʋſury; th…ſe few among us, that ſeem to defend Ʋſury, do in ſubſtance differ little from the reſt, erring eſpecially in this, that under the odious name of Ʋſury, they defend and maintain a lawful contract of partnerſhip, thus he. I quote him again, being urged to it by this mans repetitions.

Numb. 30. I add Alciates, who ſpeaking of Uſuries Oppoſites has this expreſſion, Totus Mundus militat pro nobis: The whole world militates and wars for us; meaning thoſe that are againſt Uſury, as well he might ſay ſo; for beſides the holy Scriptures, all the ancient Fathers have abhorred and written againſt it, ſaith the foreſaid **Gabriel Powel, p. 52. With whom joyn R. Capel, p. 202. The beſt and beſt learned of our Prelatical, and anti-Prelatical Divines have taken good and great pains, to prove Ʋſury to be a thing utterly unlawful.Powel, and the ancient Councils are againſt it, School-men p. 198men and Caſuiſts againſt it, and modern Divines againſt it; and the earned Biſhops of England againſt it; as the Champion himſelf in his Pamphlet confeſſeth it. As for Geneva and the Helvetians, they are of Calvins mind, who was ſo wary in his opinion, as that he would not determine any thing abſolutely concerning it; but only cautioned it, and ſo doing made it partenerſhip; ſo that his boaſting of Geneva (which I know better than he) out of B. Andrews my friend, will do him no good. As for the Germans my Country men, they have a **Which I will not have underſtood of all but many: having already granted it, that ſome in ſimplicity follow Abſolom, and took a kind of Ʋſury, which they ſhould not, out of ignorance.Commiſſary, which takes up mony, and deals with it at Franckfort Marts, and gives part of the gain, which is gained by it, but as for Uſery properly ſo called, none dares to defend it, but a great many of their Divines have written and are againſt it, whom I have formerly named, as namely Doctor Luther, Melancthon, Brentius, Muſculus, Philip Caeſar, Dr. Didericus, Hemingius, Mordeſius, Mollerus, Aretius of Helvetia, Ʋniverſitas Wittenbergenſis, Hottomannus, Doctor Luder, Dr. Pareus, Dr. Vulteius, Ʋrſin, the Preachers of Mansfield, Albertus Blankenberg. Conradus Paulus Brunſwicenſis, Juſtus Jonas, Wellerus, Pomerianus, of all which ſome are Lutherans, others Calviniſts ††The Gallick Miniſters in a French Treatiſe againſt Dancing, p. 131. So in their Annotations upon Mat. 25.27.Matt 25:27.

As for ‖‖Abulenſis in Levit. 25. … Deut. 23.19.Lev 25Deut 23:19Abulenſis, who hath written more Volumes upon the Bible than any man, him my Adverſary only names, but I do own him as one of my chief Friends; for he writes againſt all Uſury: All modes of Ʋſury are unlawful. And Ʋſury is to be underſtood according to all its modes, when namely any thing determinated is taken above the Principal p. 516.

And in Deut. 23.19. he ſaith, p. 317. It was permitted unto the Jews to lend upon Ʋſury for the hardneſs of their hearts, as Bils of Divorce, becauſe if they might have lent upon Ʋſury, they might either not have lent at all, or ſtollen: This makes for me. And as for the Heathens, by him and his friends clamed to be for them: I do deny it, becauſe I am ſure that the chief ones among them are for me, As Cicero, Plautus, Plutarch, Columella, Ariſtotle, Plato, Lucanus, Auſonius, Cato, Proculus, Ʋlpian, &c. For the proof of my aſſertion, I will ſet down ſome of their aſſertions: **Cicero de Offic. l. 1.Cicero ſaith, ſuch things are to be blemiſhed which are odious, as namely that of Ʋſurers, and ††Collumella de re …st. l. 1.Columella ſaith, that p. 199Ʋſury is odious even unto them which it ſeems to help. And **Plautus,Plautus ſaith, There is no worſe kind of men this day to deal with, than the Ʋſurers. Hugo Grotius, I do not value at all, becauſe of his unſoundneſs; that he tells of Schoolmen to be for uſury I wonder at; becauſe my Cozin Spanheimus himſelf takes it for granted they are Anti-uſurarians.

What he ſaith of all the men, by him ſuppoſed to be for uſury, that I deem them to be damned, he wrongs me in that; for I take them, that are truely godly among them, to be ſuch as will be truely glorious Saints in heaven, and ſuch as here are far enough from that curſed uſury, which is practiſ…d among us, as allowing no other uſury, but that which is recompenſatious, and liberal, and by godly cautions become another kind of thing, viz Partnerſhip. What he faintly ſpeaks of my Country men the Dutch, is not ſo, for what ſaith Aretius, One ſhall often hear theſe words come from cordial men (in Helvetia, which is in Germany, where he lived) that thoſe uſurary Inſtruments are one time to be corrected as the Popes Bulls: (which ſheweth how weary the German Divines are of uſury) nor would friends be wanting, if but an apt Adis or Lycurgus, or Cato did appear once.

Num. 31. But my work is not fully done, for I cannot but find fault with the quoting of his Authors, becauſe he only mentions men but not their words; and therefore I will now name ſome of our beſt Divines, and recite their very words at large, that the World may ſee how falſe it is, what ſome of his men ſay; that moſt modern Divines are for uſury; and the Engliſh too.

And I will begin with Perkins, who ſaith (as I and my friends do defining uſury) Ʋſury is a gain by covenant above the principal, only for loan and recompence of the lending of it.

2. I will name Adams, who ſaith, The Ʋſurer is a man made out in wax, his Pater Noſter is a Pawn, his Cree… is the Condition of his Obligation, his Religion is all Religion, a binding of others, and a binding himſelf to the Devil: Infinite colours, mitigations, evaſion: are inve…ted to countenance on Earth, Heaven exploded uſury; God ſhall then fruſtrate all, when he ſhall pour out wrath his upon the naked Conſcience.

3. ††Aret. de uſgra.Rogers of Weatherfield, That common dealing for ten in the hundred, or nine, or eight, or any ſuch like. Note ANY, without p. 200vvM…eſtella.‖‖Perkin: uppon 2. Co….**Adams in his Works, p. 55.††Rogers of Weather …ld.conſideration of the Common-wealth is utterly to be condemned, which if well conſidered, will ſoon anſwer all conſcionable men about the queſtion of Ʋſury and Oppreſſion, and he addes that there is no uſe of them in the Church, and the Chriſtian Commonwealth.

4. Mr. ‖ Dod (and O what a man is that man, even one of a thouſand) Ʋſury is not a Calling appointed by God, but a humane invention deviſed by Worldly men to gain filthy lucre to themſelves, whereby they live of the ſweat of other mens brows.

5. Mr. **Mr. Wheatly in his Caveat to the Covetous. p. 71.Wheatly, Ʋſury is a notorious injuſtice, where a man makes a gain of lending, and binds the Party borrowing without conſideration of his gain or loſs to pay the principal with advantage. And again he ſaith, Chriſtians muſt ſerve one another in love and not ſerve themſelves in ſelf love, both which principles are directly contrary the trade of the Ʋſurer, for he makes ſure to himſelf to have a part only and infallibly in the profit, and therefore ſerves himſelf only, and not at all his brother, and therefore the Ʋſurer is ſet among thoſe, that cannot dwell in the Mountain of God: (Juſt as I ſay in my Doctrine, ſo ſaith he) which he ſhould not be, were he not unjuſt.

6. Dr. ††Dr. Sutton in his Lectures.Sutton, There is no Sin be it never ſo prodigious and foul, but his Maſter has a plea for it, Ʋſury has; Deut. 23.19. unto a Stranger thou mayeſt lend: Mark this thou Ʋſurer, who defendest thy filthy Ʋſury by this.

And yet further he ſaith, Thoſe that live by Ʋſury let them remember this, my heart trembles to think what calling theſe men have, my Soul mourns how they glorifie God in them: O Ʋſurer, do thou tremble and mourn too, as this great Doctor doth.

7. Mr. ‖‖Sanderſon upon 1 Cor. 7.24.1 Cor 7:24Sanderſon, that great Oxford Scholar ſaith, The Texts of Scripture are ſo expreſs, and the grounds of reaſon ſo ſtrong against all Ʋſury, that when I weigh theſe on the one ſide, and on the other ſide how nothing all that is, which I yet ſaw, or heard, [and he could not but have read much, being a Batchelour in Divinity in Oxford] alleadged to the contrary, I cannot find charity enough to abſolve ANY kind of Ʋſury from being a Sin: And of the Ʋſurer he tells how bitterly he is inveighed againſt by Heathens, how univerſally hated by all men.

8. That great and famous Arch-Biſhop Ʋſher's opinion, and condemnation of Uſury, is to be ſeen in the front of this Book.

And I have in readineſs other learned Men, and even a p. 201Cloud of Britiſh Divines more, but I ſhall forbear to name them now for brevities ſake, and onelyonly perſwade all true Engliſh hearts to hearken to thoſe their own holy Countrymen, which they have either heard or read, or can read in their own Engliſh Tongue, rather then look after, and unto ſuch others as are cited to them in the Latin Tongue, which the Learned only underſtand, conſidering that this Uſury matter concerns the Salvation of their Souls, which as that foreſaid holy man Ʋſher tells them ſhould not be adventured upon wild Diſcourſes, and ſubtle Diſtinctions, as being more worth than all the World.

9. Mr. **Old Mr. Vdal in his Obed. to the Goſpel, 2. Sermon.Ʋdal ſaith. That it is as clear in the Word, that uſury is a Sin, as that Chriſt came into the World to ſave Sinners.

Dr. ††Azoar.Fenton, p. 154. An abſolute contract for mony lent for 10. 9. 8. or 6. in the hundred, N.B. 6. in the 100. is without warrant or authority, even among thoſe Divines, who upon ſifting and examining this point, have concluded moſt favourably for the Vſurer: And this he ſaith alſo, Ah poor Soul whether wilt thou turn thy ſelf for ſuccour, when thy beſt friends forſake thee? How doſt thou think to die a Chriſtian, if thou live an Vſurer. Here conſider, Dear Reader, what thoſe few inconſiderable Miniſters are in our Country, being compared with ſuch holy and learned Doctors.

Numb. 32. But I have a great mind to return again to that famous ſaying of Alciates, That the whole World militates for us, and war againſt bloudy uſury, as well he might, if we farther conſider what a world of men and countries there are againſt the ſame hateful uſury; as namely thoſe under the Mahometan Empire, which the Great Turk ſaith is half the World, becauſe Mahomets Law is againſt uſury in his † Alcoran, as Azoara, the ‖‖Magdeburg. Cent. 7.Centuries, and Biſhop **Downam upon Pſal. 15.Ps 15Downam aſſert it, his words are Even Mahomet and his Alcoran has forbidden ALL ƲSƲRY. O wonderful the very cruel Turks abhor uſury, all uſury, and ſhall Chriſtians redeemed with Chriſts precious blood practice it?

Again, The Papiſts alſo condemn uſury, all uſury, inſomuch as that the Pope of Rome doth every month excommunicate all Vſurers, as one alſo of our Miniſters, Mr. ††Mr. Turner againſt Ʋſury.Turner affirms it: And O what a World of Countries there are under p. 202Popiſh Kings and Princes? where let it be thought upon too, what great Scholars the Caſuiſts and School-men are, which ſtave moſt learnedly and profoundly written againſt deſervedly abominated uſury, though in other things are out, are ſo as that yet they could not be carried away with this foul error of uſuries lawfulneſs, but rather joyn with thoſe, vvhichwhich war with their pens and tongues againſt that Enemy of Mankind, Vſury, as it is juſtly called; fighting againſt it alſo as well as they. See Lorinus upon Pſal. 15. and ſhall Proteſtants fight for it? O for ſhame, for ſhame, let it be no longer reported, as the aforeſaid Jeſuite Lorinus relates it of Calviniſts and Reformed Writers, that they write and are for unlawful Vſury.

What the Champion ſaith of Biſhop Andrew my friend too, I do not regard at all; for I know what a Book he has written. Quod Ʋſura licita eſt illicita, that even lawful uſury (ſo counted by ſome) is unlawful.

12. But I have not yet done with Alciates, who ſaith that all the World fights for us, that fight againſt that ſin which is an abhorring to all fleſh; for what ſaith Jeremy 15.16. (that I may end with Gods word) I have neither lent upon uſury, nor men have lent to me on uſury, yet every one of them doth curſe me. Mark, EVERY ONE, and may not I well ſay that, well might Alciates ſay, that all the World fights for us againſt the Vſurer, ſeeing every one hates an Vſurer: O ſad man that every one hates and curſeth thee: Should not this, if there were nothing elſe againſt thee, make thee leave that hateful dreadful Sin? Now let every body that reads all this, conſider who has moſt on his ſide; whether the Champion and his few Authors, or Alciates my friend. As for me I ſtand upon this moſt; that I have God and his holy Prophets on my ſide, whereas he and they have not one, but only a little handful riſen of late ſince Carolus Molnaeus the Lawyer, their firſt Founder, whoſe Followers are not for them neither, as they think; having and propoſing ſuch cautions and limitations, as ſcarce any Vſurer by report, does obſerve, ſo as that my cozin Spanhemius, on whom the Champion and other Defendents of uſury do moſt quote has wiſely left them to their ingenious confeſſion formerly mentioned.

Now in what caſe is the poor Champion then here. Readers, what think ye? Doth he not ſtand like butter in the Sun? How doth he look think you in this ſ…d defeat, whereby his men in whom he truſted, and his own arms too are taken away from him, being over run and over-matched by p. 203the holy Prophets firſt, and a multitude of men beſides, holy Fathers I mean, and modern Authors, yea Turks, and Papiſts too, falling upon him, and his poor, by him defended Vſurers. O ſad, I ſay once more, though he miſlikes it, for ſo he diſcourſes himſelf (he cannot chooſe poor man) ſaving of his men that are for regulated uſury, What ſhall we think is become of all theſe men? Damned doubtleſs for their uſury, O ſad! I anſwer, No, no, I cannot think ſo; for they moſt of them, I hope, are ſafe, and they and we that are againſt all uſury ſhall meet in glory, becauſe of their godly cautions, vvhichwhich makes that uſury, vvhichwhich is ſuppoſed to be but partnerſhip, or ſome ſuch like harmleſs Contract.

Numb. 33. As for the burden, which every man ſhall bear at that great day, vvhen he thinks mine vvill be the greater for my uncharitable cenſure of my profeſſing brethren.

To that I anſwer, I need not fear it becauſe I do not condemn my profeſſing Brethren, as appeareth by my precedeing vvords, but let him look to it, that looks and is for foreign Ʋſury I mean ſo called, becauſe it is a Burden, vvhichwhich ſinks the Vſurer into hell, for he muſt die, Ezech. 12, 13. and be buried too in that bottomleſs pit, as I ſhall oſtend and ſhevv hereafter, God vvilling in my next printing.

Numb. 34. The Champion goes yet further and ſaith, I vvonder at his confident expreſſions, &c. Time vvas vvhen he vvas far from ſuch confidence, nay I vvondered ſaith he hovv others could ſing ſo merrily in their Congregations beyond the Seas, Luthers hymns, vvhichwhich are ſo full of conſidential expreſſions, vvhen I durſt not, nor could ſing ſo vvith them, unleſs I would lie?

Whereunto I anſwer,

I bleſs God, that it vvas ſo vvith me then; for then God did prepare and fit my troubled Soul for enſuing joyes, vvhichwhich vvere after ſuch troubles of mind ſo great and glorious, as that I vvent home one day from a good Sermon preached in the country, vvhere Luthers confidential Hymns vvere ſung, into the City vvhere then I reſided, in a triumph.

The Champion goes on (but very confuſedly) and ſaith, ſeeing he ſends us ſo often to the Council of Nice, I vviſh he vvould read and vveigh, vvhat the learned Author of the naked Truth has vvritten of Councils, and of this in eſpecial, &c.

Whereunto I anſwer, I have read the Author of the Naked Truth, and vviſh he had vvritten more diſcrectly; for not to ſpeak of other things, he goeth to bring preaching in contempt, by his going to vvork; adviſing ſuch to preach as are p. 204not called to it: If he had adviſed them to inſtruct thoſe which are committed to their charge, by Catechizing, &c. I, and many others ſhould have liked it better. But,

2. I wiſh the Champion had read Beza, a better man than his Author, who ſaith, that the Sun never beheld a more divine meeting ſince the Apoſtles time, than the Council of Nice.

3. I wiſh he had read **Bolton, p. 4.Bolton concerning it, for he would have told him that thoſe 318 Fathers which met in that Council, were the learnedeſt and greateſt Divines in the whole Chriſtian World. And I add, that there were thoſe in it, who had loſt their eyes for Chriſt, whoſe holes the great Conſtantine kiſſed, and this Novice will go to confute this grave, learned, and holy Council: O Sawcineſs! Sawcineſs moſt baſe and abominable.

4. Methinks he ſhould have learned more wit and modeſty of pious ††Calvin in his Inſtitutions.Calvin, which he takes to be his Tutor, and ſpeaks after another better rate of this famous Council, as namely thus. I do embrace thoſe Ancient Councils, the Nicene, the Conſtantinopolitan, the Epheſian, the Chalcedonian: Mark how he embraced, not ſlighted, this ſacred Synod.

5. When I firſt ſaw this mans boldneſs and ſawcineſs in this thing, I wondred; but when I conſidered how ſometimes a young contemptible Scold, will ſcold, if ſhe be a little provoked, with one of the beſt and antienteſt women in a Town or City; I ceaſed wondring: Let the Reader apply it. This old Council is againſt Uſury, and therefore this young Champion picks a quarrel againſt it, and ſcolds with it, God forgive him. As for me, I bleſs God for ſo holy and glorious an Aſſembly, ſo happily met after ſo long and ſad a time of perſecution which preceded it, and for its condemning of Uſury.

‖‖Mr. Jeling.Reply, We muſt not make more ſins than God makes. I confeſs it, ſaith he, but does God make lending to the Rich no ſin? where is that place, ſhew it if you can?

Reply, That is not needful, let him ſhew ſome proof againſt it, &c. I anſwer, 1. In ſo great a matter which concerns the Souls ſalvation, it is needful. 2. I will make a Syllogiſm of the Ch. Reply thus.

Thoſe things which God has not forbidden, we may ſafely do without hurt of Conſcience.

To take Ʋſury of Rich Men God has not forbidden.

Therefore of them lawfully without hurt of Conſcience, we may exact Ʋſury for our lending.

p. 205My Anſwer is, I deny the Minor; for it is plainly ſaid, Luke 6.35. Lend, looking for nothing thereby. If they be rich men they have no need to borrow, and yet we ought to ſhew our charity to all if need require, but if rich men out of covetouſneſs, and to maintain pride and filthy prodigality, will borrow, and others lend to them upon uſury, both of them offend; of which thing **Pomerianus in ſuo comment. in Deut.Pomerianus ſpeaks thus. The Borrower asks for his filthy pleaſure, and the Lender lends for unlawful lucre, this lending is not friendſhip but enmity, far differing from honeſt contracts, becauſe Ʋſury is contrary to Nature; for it takes away equality, and brings one party to extreme beggery, &c.

††Dr. Taylor in his progreſs of Saints, with whom I will joyn the famous Richard Capel of Ʋſury, p. 292. ſhew a place that it was granted to put money to a rich Jew or to a rich Chriſtian, elſe all they ſay is as much as nothing. See alſo what follows, p. 293. and Greenham p. 41. To the Poor give freely, they uſe to ſay, of the Rich take uſury, the Lord was never the Author of this diſtinction.Dr. Tayler goeth this way to work to anſwer this matter about the rich, Some Divines have undertaken the defence to lend to the Rich, which he anſwers thus. 1. The Moral Law forbids all Ʋſury. 2. Never any Divine that ever I could ſee or hear of, ever allowed Ʋſury, but with ſuch cautions as alter the caſe of Ʋ ſury, and maketh it indeed no Ʋſury at all; juſt as I ſaid before, what the Ch. ſaith concerning civil Contracts, needs proving and clearing.

Numb. 35. I have been ſomewhat long about this matter concerning the Rich, and Authors, becauſe it is a chief thing, but hereafter I muſt and ſhall be briefer.

‖ M. J. Obj. 5. I ſhew charity to my Neighbour, by my Loan he preſerveth his Eſtate, &c. I anſwer,

1. Charity is kind, but Uſury is cruel. Reply, Dictum ſed non probatum. The thing is plain and undeniable, being every days experience, &c. And muſt we not believe what our eyes ſee, and ears are ſo often witneſſes unto? This hold he cannot keep, therefore he adds,

2. Charity ſhould be free in lending, Luke 6.35. Reply, So Charity ſhould be free in giving too, where it is moſt conſpicuous, &c. both require due Objects.

To both I anſwer thus.

1. To the firſt: That we have eyes too, to ſee how many Families are ruin'd by Uſury and quite undone; and I do appeal p. 206for: it to the Country, whether they have not ſeen divers of their Neighbours put from houſe and home by and for Uſury, and ſo we have heard the cry of thoſe which have been quite ſpoiled by Vſury: I for my part can truly ſay it, with theſe ears of mine I have heard it, &c. which has cauſed famous Dr. Wilkinſon to cry out in his debt book; of many thouſands it has been the ruine in our Nation.

2. To the Second I anſwer: I ſhall eaſily grant, and have granted, that Charity ſhould be free in GIVING, to uſe his own phraſe, that is, we ſhould freely beſtow a gratuity upon the courteous lender, if we be gainers.

‖‖Mr. Jel.Obj. 6. I will never be perſwaded that God will damn that man who doth as he would be done to, it being Chriſts command, Mat. 7.12.

I would be willing to pay, &c.

Anſ. 1: Nor will I be perſwaded that the Vſurer would be willing by an abſolute free will.

Reply. I believe ſo too, if any would ſo far befriend him as to lend him freely to purchaſe a bargain. Whereunto I Reply, 1. That to the Q. which he propoſes here, of what Right Reaſon dictates; as namely, that it is reaſonable for me that have borrowed an hundred pounds to enlarge the Eſtate which I already have, or to drive a Trade to get gain, that he ſhould have a due proportion of the gains, &c.

I anſwer, That I ſay ſo too as he, that it is reaſonable the Lender ſhould have a proportionable gratuity, or that the Borrower ſhould part Stakes with the Lender, and let him be a partner of his new Purchaſe or Profit, gotten by Negotiation. For I am all for Partnerſhip, but not for forbidden Vſury, ſo that my advice ſtill is, that if a Rich Man will needs purchaſe more means, he agree with the Lender to let him have his proportionable part in the purchaſe, for there is no reaſon for it that he ſhould have all the profit of his money, and the Lender none: Let them divide, and ſo let neither the Lender in this purchaſe offend God by Vſury, nor the Borrower by Ingratitude, but rather forbear to purchaſe.

††Num. 36.Num 36He adds, Would he be willing with an abſolute and free will to pay intereſt, if he were in many a borrowers caſe?

Reply, I think ſo too, but this will not do his work, &c. Whereto I anſwer, that this hath been anſwered already; his ſecond Anſwer takes that for granted which is ſtill in queſtion, p. 207**Dr. Wilkinſon in his Debt Book.and therefore I paſs on and ſhall look into the Rule laid down by our Lord Chriſt, of doing as we would be done too, which is the Rule of all civil Trading and Commerce: and here he brings in B. Tayler and Zanchy in Latin, and Rivet in Latin, and B. Hall, and Mr. Burton, and Cicero, and Grotius and Rivet again, and all the three laſt in Latin.

To all which I anſwer thus.

1. That I have examined all that he and his Authors ſay, and find that what they ſay doth not croſs me, for they make it unreaſonable that another ſhould get by me, and I looſe by him, but he ſhould have part of my gain, and I do yield to it, though I cannot yield to Vſury, becauſe God will not yield to it, as men may ſee, Nehem. 5.10. Luke 6 35.

2. That I cannot miſlike my old friend Rivet eſpecially, whoſe expreſſions are very conſiderable, as namely, That he is for a Recompenſation, which they call Recompenſatory Uſury, and hold lawful, and is for a participation twice which makes way for Partnerſhip, which I do exceedingly approve of, and am glad for, but not a word he has for VSVRY. And I inſiſt upon him the rather, becauſe the Ch. ſaith, that he anſwers more fully than the reſt; granting that they do not anſwer fully though they are many: His Latin I do not tranſlate becauſe I am not bound to it.

3. I anſwer, that the Aſſemblies words do not hurt me neither, for they are very harmleſs, and I can ſafely ſay the ſame, that thoſe commands require the lawful procuring and furthering of the wealth and outward eſtate of our ſelves and theirs, and beſides the Aſſembly doth ſo much befriend me, as that it defines Vſury juſt as I and my Friends do, and what can I defire more?

**Num. 38.After all this the Ch. comes in very confuſedly with ſome remarks, formerly by him omitted; which therefore I ſhall ſlight as he me.

1. Reply, That Vſury is not named by Chriſt, Luke 6.35. nor any where in the New Teſtament, &c.

††M. J.1. Anſwer, Nor is Sodomy committed with a Beaſt.

Reply, The Reaſon is not the ſame, this Sin being of rarer practice, &c.

Whereunto I anſwer, Though it be never ſo rarely practiſed, yet might it have been named as well as thoſe ſins, Rom. 1.26, 27. committed by men with men, by women with women, which alſo are to be abborred, without any ones crying out fie, fie, upon Paul, who names them.

p. 2082. But if this Sodomy be ſuch an abhorred ſin, as that I ſhould not have named it, then I hope I may inſtance in divers others which are not ſo: as namely, Biting Vſury by them ſo called, Polygamy, High-Treaſon, nor the prophanation of the Chriſtian Sabbath, which Vſurers Defendants and Vſurers are very much guilty of in Holland and High Germany, where let me alledge what Dr. Pye ſaith, which has never yet been confuted, as **Who alſo was never yet confited, ſaith, R. Capel. p. 288.Bolton tells us the ſame, that many other breaches alſo of the Moral Law are not forbidden in the New Teſtamenr, tho' they be in the Old; as for example, all degrees of Inceſt ſave one, Removing of our Neighbours Land-mark, and the prophanation of the Sabbath.

2. Anſwer, Other famous Writers ſhall reſolve them▪

Reply, I have ſaid enough to take off this before.

A. And ſo have I, and ſo Mr. Trap, and therefore I will let it go, and ſay no more but this: That whereas Reply is made to what I ſaid, Vſury was ſuppreſſed by the twelve Tables, and by Tiberius Caius, and Veſpaſian, &c. that my reaſon is but weak, I hope I ſhall make it ſtrong enough by and by. And

1. Biſhop Hall my friend (as the Champion himſelf calls him) who makes it ſtrong enough, for he reports it from approved Authors.

2. By Alexander of Alexandria, who goes to the very time, when Tiberius did ſuppreſs Vſury, viz. in the latter part of his Reign, and that Vſury was ſo effectually ſuppreſſed by him, as that it is ſuppoſed that it was not practiſed in Judaea.

3. By Biſhop Downam, to make up a threefold cord which is not eaſily bro…en.

4. I ſhall make my Reaſon and all the reſt that goes with it, ſtrong enough by other Emperours alſo; as Leo, who utterly ſuppreſſed it, as ††Poole upon Luke 6.Luke 6Mr. Poole and others affirm it, and by Juſtinian, as the corpus juris makes it good, and Charles the Fifth at Auguſta in Germany.

5. I add, And whereas the Ch. makes a matter of it, that I make ſuch a halt between Claudius and Veſpaſian, I anſwer, that it might perk up again as often as it did, and ſo be put down from time to time.

6. About Seneca I have this to ſay, that I was miſled by one, who made him ſo great an Vſurer, from which Aſperſion I have ſince freed him.

N. 35. But the Champion Replyes here, did the twelve Tables, p. 209Tables, or theſe Emperors reach Judea, that it was needleſs there to preach againſt it. &c. and doth he not conſider that Chriſt in his Goſpel delivered rules not only for the preſent, but alſo for after times of his Church?

Whereunto I anſwer, That doubtleſs the twelve Tables, and Emperours Edicts reached Judea alſo, yea all the conquered World, for Luke 2.1. It is ſaid, that there went out a Decree from Caeſar Auguſtus, that all the World ſhould be taxed; and did not Pilate in the dayes of Tiberius, govern in Judea by the Roman Law, ſo as that Chriſt was judged and condemned by it; and Paul examined and committed by it afterward; thus in general: And of Uſury in particular, it is ſaid by Authors, as it was ſaid before, that uſury was not practiſed in Judea, as it muſt needs be ſo, for to whom ſhould they lend? to their Brethren the Jews they durſt not, becauſe of Deut. 23.19. To the Romans they durſt not, becauſe of Tiberius, who had interdicted it.

As for after times Chriſts law in Luke 6.35. was and is ſufficient to ſuppreſs uſury at any time, but to be more plain, is not the Scripture plain againſt uſury, both in the Old Teſtament and alſo in the New, the Uſurers deny it; yet can we ſufficiently prove it; partly by the forequoted place, Luk. 6.35. lend hoping for nothing from thence, and partly from other Scriptures; namely by a neceſſary conſequence, as thus, we muſt not be covetous, Luke 12, 15. and therefore not lend upon uſury, for that by moſt Expoſitors upon Pſul. 15.5. is counted covetouſneſs. See Mollerus, upon Pſal. 15. Again we are forbidden to ſteal, Matth. 19.18. and uſury is accounted theft by moſt Authors, and Writers, and we muſt not wrong one another in bargaining, 1 Theſ. 4, 5, 6. and uſury is wronging, becauſe it is biting, ſo that by a conſequence it follows, that we muſt not be Vſurers.

And to be more plain yet, **Edm. Binny,Some tranſlate that place in 1 Cor. 5.11. expreſly and even by name, Ʋſurers, and not Extortioners, which may be made yet farther good by Pſal. 109.11. Where the Extorti…ner by ††The Engliſh excepted.moſt Tranſlations is rendred Vſurer, let the Ʋſurer take his ſubſtance. Now if theſe ‖‖Both Tranſlations I mean. Pſal. 109.11. and 1 Cor. 6.10.Ps 109:111 Cor 6:10Tranſlations be in the right, in what caſe is the poor Vſurer then? being named by his very name Vſurer in the very new Teſtament, as I can ſhew it, and in Pſal. 109.11. alſo. So that the Vſurer is thereby caught and condemned, which way ſoever.

p. 210Numb. 40.2. What needs ſo much ado about the prohibiting of Uſury by Name in the New Teſtament, ſeeing that many other great and damnable ſins forbidden in the Old Teſtament, are omitted alſo, and not named in the New, viz. beſides the Chriſtian Sabbath, Oppreſſion condemned, Ezek. 18.12. Bribery, Job 15.34. Eſa. 33.15. Going after W…zards, Lev. 20.6. curſing Father or Mother, ver. 9. a mans lying with his Siſter, his Fathers Daughter or his Mothers, v. 17: with his Mothers Siſter or his Fathers, v. 19. or with his Uncles Wife, v. 20. So marrying with the Fathers Wife, Lev. 18.10. thy Sons Daughter or Daughters Daughter, v. 10. thy Fathers Siſter, v. 12. thy Daughter in Law, v. 15. all which are not named in the New Teſtament, as alſo the worſt kind of Uſury, called griping Uſury by the Patrons of Uſury, and vexing the Stranger, Exod. 22.21. and afflicting any Widow or Fatherleſs Child, v. 22: and lending to the poor upon Uſury, v: 25. So that if any, hereafter ſhall preſume to lend upon Uſury, ſaying that he may becauſe it is not by name forbidden by Chriſt and his Apoſtles; it will be as if one ſhould plead that a man may venture upon any of the horrid Inceſts even now named, and lie with his Fathers Wife, &c: and curſe his Father, and oppreſs his Brother, and afflict Widows and the Fatherleſs, becauſe ſuch horrible ſins are not forbidden in the New Teſtament.

But I have not yet done with this great thing, but I ſhall ſay yet farther, that whereas he ſaith, that what I ſay is weak, I anſwer him thus: Not ſo weak as what he ſaith, in that

1. He ſaith forth and back, blaming me for ſaying, that the all-wiſe God, foreſeeing that men would abuſe the mentioning of the poor in the Law of Uſury, in Deut. 23: 19. left out the poor, and yet ſaying the like here, and will he not allow the ſame all-wiſe God the like foreſight here, as to foreſee, that Ʋ ſury if it were ſuppreſſed for the preſent, would perk up again, and therefore there was need of ſevere rebukes in the Goſpel, which is eaſily anſwered thus. That by the places even now named, it is by neceſſary conſequence, and even by name, as ſome render the Apoſtles words, prohibited and condemned, and that the like may be ſaid of Poligamy, which ſome even of late and in print, would have perk up again, and ſo of the prophanation of the Sabbath, which though it was ſuppreſſed in Nehemiah's time, yet in our time perks up again as much as ever, eſpecially in theſe Countries where Uſurers ſwarm, and the defendants of Uſury do wink at it, as in ſome part of the Netherlands, where it was formerly ſuppreſſed, and in the Palatinate, p. 211where by **Dr. Fenton.Ʋrſin and ††Biſhop Downam:Pareus it was written down.

I add, Nor is my ſaying ſo weak, as many are which, one of Uſuries great friends has in a Manuſcript of his, ſince publiſhed in part by one of Uſuries enemies, ‖‖For Paraeus publiſhed Ʋrſin's Books, wherein he wrote againſt Ʋſury, and ſo approved …his writing againſt it, as Clerk aſſerts it.who of thirty two Reaſons of his for Uſury, could find but ſeven that looked like a Reaſon, and were alſo, being as weak as water, overcome by and by, and confuted.

Num. 41. But the Ch. thinks that the caſe is not the ſame now, ſince regulated Uſury came in; and adds, that ſome wiſer Emperors coming after, did not abſolutely forbid, but limit Uſury, inſtancing in Alexander, Severus, and Antonius Pius, which practiſed it as I taught him. Whereunto,

I anſwer thus:

1. That it it true, the caſe is altered from taking no Uſury to take fix in the hundred, which they call regulated Uſury, but ſhould rather call ſtinted.

2. That the ſaid Emperors ſeeing a neceſſity of tolerating ſome Uſury to help many which could borrow no mony, becauſe men would not lend freely, being hard hearted, would lend themſelves mony at ſuch an eaſie rate as theirs was.

Num. 42. Mr. Jel. Obj. 7. The Laws of Men and even Chriſ…ians, the Civil Law, the Canon Law and Statute Law do all allow of Uſury; and do you think they would if all Uſurers ſhould be damned as you ſay?

His firſt Anſwer denyes the aſſertion, viz. that thoſe Laws allow of Uſury, they do but tollerate, permit, and reſtrain it, for ſome civil good to avoid greater evils.

Reply, Greater evils! what greater than the damnation of ſo many millions of Souls? Neither can I be perſwaded, &c.

For anſwer whereunto, I ſay,

1. That he confounds temporal evils with eternal, not meant.

2. That what great evils ſoever the damnation of many millions of Souls be, yet ſo it is, that Vſurers let them be never ſo many, muſt die, that is, be damned, by vertue of Ezek: 18.12, 13. as Divines expound that place: I will name but one or two, and 1: **Dr. S. p. 7.Dr. Sanders upon that place, he ſhall not live, that is, he ſhall not enjoy heaven: And ††Biſhop Downam:Biſhop Downam from that place ſpeaks to the Uſurer thus. Thou Ʋſurer takeſt increaſe, p. 212and therefore thou ſhalt, if thou continueſt in this ſin, DIE ETERNALLY.

3. As for his aſſertion that the Law not only permits and tollerates, but allows Uſury, becauſe men may recover the uſe that Laws preſcribe; I anſwer, that it cannot be an allowance, becauſe the Title of the Law is, An Act againſt Ʋſury, which is ſeconded by Beza, ſaying as I ſaid once already. Nay the Civil Laws themſelves do not ALLOW, No, not allow [contradicting the Ch. to his very face] but rather condemn that which they do ONLY TOLERATE, forced thereunto by the wickedneſs of men.

2: I anſwer, That the uſe of mony is not to be recovered by Law, as Uſe; but as a debt upon another account: wherefore it is, that the Vſurer has his Uſe added to the Principal, for which thing he is highly condemned by Authors.

The third fault in Vſurers is, ſaith one, When to avoid the penalty of the Law, they colour the matter in that they write in their Bills of debt, one to have borrowed ſo much of them, when it is not ſo much: And again he ſaith, There can be no obligation of Vſury, no not ſo much as by the Civil Law in the contract of Lending; and Vſury cannot be recovered by force of lending, **And ſo the Pandects hold it.but another way.

3. All that which he tells of Law-makers power to regulate Contracts, alledging Grotius and Luther's foreign, learned Beza anſwers in a few words, ſaying: The only thing that remains for Magiſtrates to do is, they ſtint Ʋſury, and ſo down totters all that the Ch. ſaid for allowing.

4. I cannot but highly commend Rivet for ſome of his ſayings, viz. That the Magiſtrate is not to be blamed, that for the ending of ſtrife he doth for a yearly Rent grant a certain penſion, (as is done in theſe Provinces) for mony by the Subjects offered thereby to reward them, which intimates a gratuity, and no Ʋſury, and diſarms the Champion.

Num. 43. And becauſe ſome will hardly believe it, that the Law does not allow of Vſury, I will once more recite two Acts of Parliament, viz. Jacobi 21. An Act againſt Vſury, and provided that no words in this Law contained ſhall be conſtrued or expounded to allow the practice of Vſury in point of Religion or Conſcience a dreadful Thunderbolt from a moſt learned Ring, and a wiſe Parliament. 2. And Eliz. 13. Foraſmuch as all Vſury being forbidden by the word of God, is ſin and deteſiable, O ſad again! that that worthy Parliament alſo ſhould p. 213prove ſuch a bitter enemy to the poor Vſurer! but ſo it is, who can help it?

6: I ſay that a ſimple conſtruction it is, that ſome weak defendants of Vſury do make of thoſe words, (as Dr. Fenton reports it) all Vſury, which is forbidden by the Word of God, when the Law never ſaid ſo, but being forbidden by the Law of God; which ſhews what ſimpletons they are ſeveral of them, who defend weakly guarded Vſury.

7. And becauſe ſome will ſay, why then doth the Law tollerate Vſury, if it be the damning ſin of ſo many millions of Souls? I anſwer, 1. That therefore it will not own the practice of it in point of Conſcience, as it ſaith. Nor 2. Does it more than Moſes did in the caſe of Divorces, which Divines inſtance in, and Beza by name, clearing Godly Magiſtrates in this thing thus; by reaſon of the wickedneſs of men, they are compelled only to moderate (mark moderate, not allow or defend) many things elſe, and then adding, as in Ʋſury, which many Magiſtrates are compelled to permit, becauſe they ſee that it cannot be utterly aboliſhed.

8. And foraſmuch as ſome think that the Law allows of Vſury, becauſe if a man takes but ſix of the hundred, the Law has nothing to ſay againſt him; I anſwer, that it doth not follow from that, that it allows of Vſury, becauſe it condemns all Vſury as ſin and deteſtable, but only this may be ſaid, and is ſaid by great Divines about it, that it remits the puniſhment which is to be inflicted on ſuch as take more.

2. Yea ſo far is the Law from allowing, and favouring Vſury in the leaſt, as that if an Vſurer offend but in the leaſt clauſe of the Law, he is puniſhed for it: As for example, if he take his mony but a day before it is due, he ſuffers for it upon complaint made; ſo if he taketh any thing above the ſtint. I will give two Inſtances for it.

1. ††The death of Ʋſury, p. 23.A Borrower came before the day of payment, deſiring the Vſurer to take his mony and uſe, becauſe he dwelt a great way off, whereupon he took it, but the Borrower procured a treble miſchief.

2. And ‖‖Ibid.one lent two hundred pounds to two men for a year, the day being paſt, they brought the mony, and uſe, and a Gown for a free gift, which he took; but how theſe two men were ſerved, is too tedious here to relate.

9. But defiring to be more full yet, and ſhew how far the Law is, and has been from time to time, from countenancing and allowing p. 214**Beza in Mat. 19.Matt 19heaven exploded Vſury, I will give forth a rehearſal of Englands Laws againſt Vſury, in the days of **Anno 3. c. 5.Edward the Third, the cogniſance of the Vſurer deceaſed was allotted to the King, in King ††Anno 11. c. 8.Henry the Seconds time: Alſo all the Chattels and Moveables which the Vſurer deceaſed, had, were to be taken for the uſe of the King, in King ‖‖Anno 37. c. 9.Henry the Sevenths time: All uſurarions Contracts were made void and of none effect, and by another, Vſurers were puniſhed with the forfeiture of the moiety put forth by the Vſurer. In **Anno 5. & 6.Henry the Eights time, thoſe that took above ten in the hundred, were puniſhed with the forfeiture of treble, and of the goods put forth to Vſury; the which Act ſaith the Parliament aſſembled in the Reign of ††Edw. c. 20.Edward the Sixth, was not meant for the maintenance & ALLOWANCE of Vſury, as by the Title and Preamble of the ſame Act it plainly appeareth. Then in comes Edward the Sixth, a Proteſtant King, in whoſe time, by an Act of Parliament, were condemned all kinds of VSURY, and meaſures of Vſury, and it was confirmed, that Vſury is BY THE WORD OF GOD VTTERLY PROHIBITED AS A VICE MOST ODIOVS AND DETESTABLE. This was done ſince the Reformation, not in Poperies time. After him in Q. ‖‖Anno 13. c. 6.Elizabeths time Vſury was ſtinted, becauſe of neceſſity, and a relaxation was thought upon by reaſon of Vſurers breaking out into their wicked ways and courſes which they took up.

Num. 44. Mr. Jel. What he ſays of the Civil Law makes nothing to his purpoſe, but rather againſt him; ſince it declareth that a mediocrity may be found out between a Lender and Borrower. But more fully

I anſwer this, ſhewing him by and by how it makes for me. **Philip Caeſar, pag. 20.Philip Caeſar a German Divine writes thus: I can ſay with a good conſcience in this place, that travelling by that notable Lawyer, Dr. Ludder's houſe, to the Earl of Mansfield, being ſent for; he ſhewed me many Books of Lawyers moſt excellent and learned, written againſt Vſury; (and that is one hundred years ago) which, ſaith he, will in the day of Judgment condemn the Patrons of Vſury. O dreadful, dreadful again!

2. The Civil Law, I ſay, (which I have read all over as big as it is) is divided as it were into three parts.

p. 215The firſt contains thoſe Laws which were made before the Roman State became a Monarchy, and with them thoſe which were made after, from the time of Julius Caeſar unto Conſtantine the Great, and are called Pandecks.

The ſecond contains thoſe which were made from Conſtantines time to Juſtinian the Emperour, and thoſe are called the Codex or Code.

The third contains thoſe Laws which were made by Juſtinian the Emperour, alſo called Nouellae and Authenticae, or Novels and Authenticks: Now before the Authenticks, Uſury was ſometimes wholly prohibited, and ſometimes ſtinted, but at laſt by the Novels which abrogate the former Laws, it was and is altogether forbidden; for Juſtinian among other decree, enacted this alſo. We decree, That the holy Eccleſiaſtical Canons, which were publiſhed and confirmed by the **Which Calvin alſo alloweth.four holy Councils, that is, by the Council of Nice conſiſting of three hundred and eighteen Biſhops, by the Council of Conſtantinople, conſiſting of an hundred and fifty learned Fathers, by the Councel of Epheſus, and by the Conncil of Calcedon, ſhall have the power and place of Laws: So that thereby Uſury is prohibited, condemned, and put down in the world, as being condemned by the Council of Nice, which the ſaid Imperial Decree in the firſt place nameth, eſtabliſheth, and ſets up for Law: Whereupon it is that my Adverſary cannot abide that holy Council, becauſe it and its holy three hundred and eighteen Fathers are againſt Uſury, and becauſe its Canon againſt Uſury was made a ſtanding Law by this excellent and learned Chriſtian Emperour through the world. O brave Council!

2. For Canon-Law, the Doctors, ſaith he, uſe this Argument, That one inferior Law cannot take off the Law of a Superior: His anſwer whereunto has been anſwered before now. 3 Statute Law, Jac. 21. Provided, That no words in this Law ſhall be conſtrued or expounded, to allow the practice of it in point of Religion or Conſcience. Reply, Allow it then they do civil Converſe, neither is it fit the Parliament ſhould take it upon them to determinate things as lawful or unlawful in the Court of Conſcience.

Whereunto I anſwer, 1. Let a better man than he here ſpeak, they ſlander the Laws, who ſay they allow of Uſury.

2. I ſee he would fain quarrel with the Parliament too as well as with me, becauſe it makes it unlawful by the word of p. 216††See Dr. Jer. Taylor in duel, dubit: l. 3: c. 3.God, but what God ſaith and the Parliament ſaith, that all Uſury is unlawful and ſin, being forbidden by the Word, will ſtand for truth, when his Carkaſs ſhall rot as other mens.

3. What he ſaith all along till he comes to the queſtion, whether, if a man ſell a Commodity and allows time for payment, he be bound to ſell it as cheap, as if he had ſold it for ready mony, p. 85. I ſuppoſe I have already anſwered it as far as need required it in my preceding lines; only this I will add about Law.

1. That I cannot by any thing ſaid by the Ch. be convinced, that the Laws are bitter againſt oppreſſive Uſury, becauſe the P…rliament ſaith expreſſy, That all Ʋſury is ſin.

2. That any one may ſee how angry he is with the Civil Law too, calling it uncivil, becauſe it is againſt him and his Uſurers, but vana ſine viribus …ra.

3 That the Emperour Leo is againſt Uſury too, makes for me who am againſt all Uſury as he is; and that I have formerly proved it, that the firſt Chriſt ans neither did, nor durſt lend upon Uſury, by Authors which are a little more Authentick than his Grotius.

4. I confeſs that by the Code it appears, as I ſaid before, that ſometimes Uſury has been ſtinted, and ſometimes wholly prohibited, and till by Juſtinian it was quite put down in the **Grounded upon the Council of Nice, which Conſtantine the Great who was preſent at it, a…ſo approved.Novels.

5. I obſerve alſo, how much he is diſpleaſed with Eccleſiaſtick and Canon Laws, depriving Uſurers of the Sacrament, ſaying, that this began under a degenerated antiquity, when as I can tell him, that my Colleague Mr. Huijh, whom he cites as his friend, has kept Uſurers from the Sacrament alſo, under the Reformation, even lately; as I intimated it formerly upon another account.

6: What he ſaith to undermine Randulphs de Glandevils Authority, (whereby he proves that Uſury is committed, when a man, having lent any thing conſiſting upon number, weight, or meaſure, takes any thing over and above the Loan) bringing in his Oxen in a jeer, I look upon as a mere ſhift and frivolous anſwer; becauſe there is a difference between things … utuated and commodated, as it has been formerly manifeſted.

7. Now to the Queſtion I will anſwer for all, (though I may chuſe, becauſe it concerns not the matter in hand which is Uſury) p. 217that there is a great diſcrepancy between lending upon Uſury, and taking ſomething for wanting my mony and ſtaying for it till the time be come for which I lent it, and ſelling the thing the dearer for ſtaying a year till I can be paid: For doubtleſs that is lawful, becauſe Selling is a lawful Contract; and I am one that lives by ſelling if I be a Merchant. And if I want it ſo long I cannot trade with it, but am forced to borrow, it may be, and there are hazards in it beſides; as Biſhop Taylor well mentions it: ſo as that I may loſe it by mens death or otherwiſe; whereas lending upon Uſury is illicite and forbidden, and not ſo hazardous neither, becauſe the Uſurer will make all as ſure as a man can by ſufficient Sureties beſides the Borrower, and by Morgages, Pawns, Extents, and but from half year to half year; and by changing Sureties. Only this I will ſuper-add, that the Seller may ſell the dearer for giving ſo long time as a year is, yet he muſt not ſell too dear, for there is a conſcience to be made of all ſuch things; becauſe we muſt not wrong one another in bargaining. 1 Theſſ. 4.5.6.

And becauſe elſe we commit ſome kind of Uſury too, as divers do aſſert it; I will name but one at preſent, viz: Auguſtinus, who ſaith expreſly: He that ſelleth dearer than the juſt price of things requires, commits Ʋſury.

Num. 46. I could name and alledge Biſhop Hall too, but he has been quoted already:

Mr. Jel. Obj. 8. Divers modern Divines allow of Ʋſury, if it do not exceed the Sum appointed by Law, and be moderate, &c.

I anſwer, I know ſome few do ſo. Reply, I doubt not there be many more than he knows of; I have ſpoken of this before, &c. Anſwer. And ſo have I, and therefore let that ſerve for him and his Grotius alſo.

He ſaith, He has brought many witneſſes already, and threatneth to bring many more againſt the poor condemned Uſurers burying.

Reply, But I deſire in the behalf of the poor Uſurer, that he may have a fair Tryal, before he be condemned, and dead before he be buried; and when dead and buried, he that propheſieth what great things Prince Rupert was deſtinated to from Eternity, cannot foretel whether the Uſurer may have a Reſurrection, &c. Whereunto I anſwer,

1. Here the Reader may ſee how this Champion loves the poor condemned Uſurer, for lo, how he begs for him that he may have a fair Tryal; ſo as that a man cannot chuſe but grant him his requeſt, and promiſe him as fair a Tryal as poſſibly he can deſire, becauſe he begs ſo pitifully: And the truth is, I…ntended it before he begged it, that the poor Wretch ſhould p. 218have as fair a Tryal and Proceeding as any man whatſoever: For my purpoſe is to invite, beſides the holy **One of which called Ezekiel, ch. 18.12, 13. ſaith expreſly, Shall he live? He ſhall not live, he ſhall ſurely die: which very words, as all men may ſee, ſtrike the poor Ʋſurer down dead to the ground, yea, under ground, even into hell.Prophets, whole Councils, even thirteen at leaſt, conſiſting of hundreds, and hundreds of godly Fathers, and an incredible number of other ſingle Doctors and Writers, old and new; (able to make two Armies) to paſs their direful Sentences upon the Uſurer in order to his condemnation, and after condemnation to his Grave, called the Pit of Hell; which notwithſtanding I promiſe, profeſs, and declare withal before hand, that he may, yea ſhall have a Reſurrection, by my fourth Book of his Reſurrection, in … he will be ruled and repent; for I ſhall but threatningly bury him, that room may be left for his joyful Reſurrection; which God in mercy grant unto him.

2. Lo how he jeers me again, and far greater ones than my poor ſelf, about Prince Rupert, of whom a great Writer (whoſe Book I have ſeen and read, being dedicated to the ſame Moſt Illuſtrious Prince, Son to the late Pious King of Bohemia, my Gracious Lord) has this Prophecy; That he was deſtinated to great Atchievements from Eternity, which alſo was fulfilled in part (not to ſpeak of Land-Fights) when he was Lord Admiral of two great and formidable Fleets, the Engliſh and French upon the Britiſh Seas, and gallantly reſcued the Engliſh, and repulſed their Adverſaries *. If, not to write here of ſome late moſt remarkable deeds which, by Report, he did, now the Ch: hath a mind to go on with his jeering and ſcoffing, let him take his belly full of it, but let him take heed withal, for God will not be mocked.

As for his eighteen men, that are ſaid to be for Uſury, and have been anſwered by R. Bolton, he might have ſaved that labour, and have Reprinted but only Mr. Bolton, but if he have a mind to try his ſtrength, I ſhould deſire him to anſwer Dr. Rivet upon the Q. written ſince Mr. Bolton; alſo what Mr. Baxter writes of this Subject in his late Chr. Direct. Whereunto I anſwer.

p. 219††Wherewith I ſhall joyn part of a Poem called Rupertiſmus, concerning this valiant Prince, by one C. p. 158. Ingredients of his vertue threat the Beads, Of Caeſar's Acts, Great Pompey's, and the Suedes: And 'tis a Bracelet for a Rupert's Hand, By which that vaſt Triumvirate is ſpan'd.1. That this makes for me alſo, for if what I have written be Mr. Bolton's, then he fights all this while againſt Mr. Bolton, and I go free and may fit ſtill: As for Rivet, he never troubled me being ſtill my friend, and why ſhould I trouble my ſelf about him? But let him try his ſtrength upon Dr. Pye againſt Uſury, which was never yet confuted.

Or if he be too old for him, upon that Learned Man, viz. Chriſtophorus Cartwright late Miniſter in York, who wrote a Treatiſe againſt Uſury ſince Bolton too, about twenty years ago. As for Mr. Baxter, I have read what he ſays in his Directory about Uſury, and like his cautions ſo well, as that we two need not fall out about this matter, becauſe the ſaid cautions practiſed, free him from Uſury, making for Partnerſhip.

Num. 47: Mr. Jel. Biſhop Jewel, But what ſpeak I of the ancient Fathers? There was never any Religion, nor Sect, nor Profeſſion of Men nor State, but they have miſliked it. Reply, May it not be ſaid concerning all thoſe, there have been ſome of them that have approved of it by their practiſe or pleading.

I anſwer, 1. Who be they that have pleaded for it? Some indeed have practiſed it among the corrupt Clergy Men, and for that the Council of Nice, and other ſucceeding Councils have made Canons againſt them, that they might be removed and puniſhed: And St. Chryſoſtom, and St. Auſtin, and others, have written moſt ſharply againſt them, but never did any of the holy Fathers, whom I read or could hear of by others, plead for Uſury.

2. Nor is it to be proved by Grotius ſubſtantially, that Leo was the firſt Emperour that did forbid all Uſury, and that the firſt Chriſtians did practiſe Uſury for four in the hundred; for I have proved the contrary before now by ſubſtantial Authors, viz. Biſhop Hall, and Alex. ab Alex. and others, that Tiberius and Caius did put down Uſury before Leo, yea by Luther himſelf, how the very firſt Emperour Julius Caeſar was againſt Uſury, and proved how the firſt Chriſtians did not at all practiſe it; ſo then I leave it to true Engliſh Hearts to chuſe, whether they will believe their own Engliſh Divines, Biſhop Jewel, Biſhop Hall, Biſhop Downam, and ſuch like; or this Stranger Grotius.

3. But ſee the boldneſs of this man, who alſo will confute and affront Englands Jewel, **And was a Prophet too that foretold Q. Mary's death and his own too unto a preciſe day, Clerk p. 320: and ſaid of Ʋſury by him ſo cryed down, if I be deceived in it, thou Lord haſt deceived me:who was a ſufferer and exil'd man p. 220in my Country, and there had time and opportunity to converſe, and to confer with German Divines, about Vſury at full, and is extol'd to the Sky by Peter Martyr for his Apology, and was as great a Scholar and Antiquary, as ever England bred, Great Ʋſher excepted; and has as famouſly confuted Popery, as that his Confutation of H. is to be procured to be read in every Pariſh Church.

4. As for the fifteen-hundred years for which Biſhop Jewel ſaith, Uſury was not defended by the ancient; I would have him to know, that not he only, but two or three great Divines more have afferted the ſame; let him bring but one Ancient Father or Dr. (Maniches the Heretick excepted) who has defended Uſury as now it is practiſed: I challenge him now to do it if he can, even as Biſhop Jewel challenged the Papiſts to prove their Religion and Opinions to have been maintained in ſuch firſt Centuries as he named.

Of his ſophiſtical repreſenting of Biſhop Jewel's words I forbear to ſpeak, let Readers note it.

Num. 48. Mr. Jel. Biſhop Hall, Nature teaches that mettals are not a thing capable of ſuperfaetation.

Reply, I ſhall conſider more diſtinctly what is here ſaid.

Whereunto I anſwer.

1. This Champion having beaten, overcome, and confuted, as he ſuppoſeth, renowned Biſhop Jewel, thinks to beat Biſhop Hall too, out of Mars field, by ſeveral aſſaults made upon him which ſheweth his peremptorineſs, ſawcineſs, and impudence, yet more abundantly, that he will offer to confute ſuch a great famous man as Biſhop Hall was, who as one ſaid, was able to keep a better man than he to wait upon him, and whom King James ſent to the Synod of Dort againſt the Remonſtrants, and whoſe moſt excellent Books have been tranſlated partly into Dutch, as upon my knowledge I told him, and partly into French, as one born in France lately informed me.

So that if that moſt pious and learned Man were now alive, he would diſdain to anſwer ſuch a Novice, which makes me to do here as in bleſſed Bolton's caſe, for I do not ſee how I can preſume to defend ſuch an able Biſhop, who has fought ſo well for himſelf againſt his Adverſaries when he lived, and in this matter of Uſury has done ſo well, and therefore is well able to defend himſelf without my poor help, his words being of that weight, as that of themſelves they are able to defend themſelves, and being ſeconded alſo by what Ariſtotle of old, and Biſhop Downam, and Dr. Sanders of late, have written to the ſame …ffect: And this I muſt needs add, that whilſt he lives, he will never be able to overthrow what theſe three and others p. 221have ſaid and proved of moneys barrenneſs in and of it ſelf; if any profit comes of it, it comes from and by the induſtry of him that employeth it, and not by it; whereas ground ſet brings graſs of it ſelf, and Trees fruit of themſelves, Gen. 1.11.

As for that great Dr. **I add, that the ſame great Pareus was ſo graced with the Spirit of Prophecying too, as that ſeeing three Moons over the City of Heydelberg, foretold its taking, and the troubles of Germany as a Prophet.Pareus my ancient friend, under whom I lived in the Vniverſity of Heydelberg in the Palatinate, where God took him away to himſelf before that City was taken, as he took St. Auſtin from Hippo before it was taken; him alſo he ſerves no better than the foreſaid three great perſons, becauſe he is againſt Uſury too, labouring to defeat him by Hornbeck, though he be not able to do it, becauſe Pareus will be believed before him, being a far greater and more able Writer, and one of a thouſand, whom God did remarkably own upon his death bed, in that calling for Pen and Paper, he wrote theſe confidential words when his ſpeech was gone: This Catharre has taken away my ſpeech, but ſhall never take away my faith and love to Chriſt: which very words were related in his Funeral Sermon, which I heard my ſelf being at his Burying; all which I relate the rather, becauſe he was a chief man in the New Army riſen up againſt Uſury, which has moved queſtionleſs this Champion to riſe up againſt him, and to get ††Who layeth the fault of Iſrael's not coming in upon Chriſtian Magiſtrates, which Pareus layeth upon Ʋſurers.Hornbecks help to defeat him, and to ſhew what a man he is that can confute theſe four mighty men.

To that which he ſaith of me, that if I ſhould be put to prove the whole, if any be a Thief or Uſurer, 1 or. 6.10. I ſhould have a hard Task of it; I muſt now tell him, not ſo hard as he ſuppoſes, for VSVRERS are named expreſly by ſome in their Tranſlations in the ſame place, as I formerly ſhewed.

Num. 49. Mr. Jel. I will ſet down the Theſes of Wittemberg againſt Ʋſury, a little after Luther was riſen.

Reply, 1. It could not be expected that men lately come out of Popery, ſhould on a ſudden ſhake off all the errors held in that Church, &c:

2. And Luther himſelf became more moderate, &c.

Whereunto I anſwer, 1. As he leaves out the words of that Univerſities Theſes or Poſitions, becauſe they do extremely make againſt him, ſo ſhall I leave out the many words which p. 222he uſeth here, and Rivet too, becauſe they cited in Latin, and ſo I will only 1. Shew the occaſion of thoſe Wittemburg Poſitions again Vſury ſo famouſly known; as I have it of a certain German **Philip Caeſar.Divine, who lived neer Wittemburg in Saxony, and informs me by his writing againſt Vſury; that the ſaid Theſes were affixed in Wittemburg, diſputed and approved when Mordeſius proceeded Doctor in Divinity, and that Luther himſelf was a ſtrong condemner of Vſury.

2. I will refel what he ſaith that it could not be expected, &c. after this manner: When Luther had ſet up his poſitions againſt the Popes Indulgence, ſpread by Terdius, then Mordeſius ſet forth his Theſes againſt Vſury at Wittemburg, that both Popery and Vſury might fall together: And to let men ſee that it was not only in the beginning of the Reformation, but afterward alſo, and ever ſince to our preſent time, the ableſt Wits and holieſt of men, both Miniſters and Writers, have with one voice cryed down that loud crying ſin of Vſury. So that it is a mere and vain boaſt that moſt modern Divines, Lawyers, and Moraliſts have received the opinion favouring moderate Vſury; for all that which thoſe Divines ſo much talked of, I do ſay is, that men muſt uſe ſuch and ſuch cautions, which are eight or nine, and make that which ſome call Vſury no Vſury, whereupon what he ſaith of Geſner and Windelin, Profeſſor of the School (not Vniverſity) of Anhalt and of ††Which pious and renowned Polanus left being infected with dangero is Tenents, as Clerk relates it.Tubinghen an obſcure Vniverſity to my knowledge, in the Dutchy of Wittenburg, where I have been my ſelf alſo, and of Wollebius whom I have heard often preach and read his Latin Divinity Lectures in the Vniverſity of Baſil, but never any one for Vſury, and who has written his worthy Name and Motto, as my friend, in my Book of Friends: So that all that which here this Champion ſaith, will ſtand him in no ſtead, becauſe he is none of them that follow their godly cautions, as I underſtand. And becauſe twice in his Pamphlet he tells of Luther, that at laſt he became more moderate, he muſt prove ſubſtantially, which will be a hard task for him to do: For other great Divines make light of it, and Dr. Fenton eſpecially, and one more; ſo that ſtill he is quoted by all Antiuſurarians as a bitter enemy to Vſury, which would be very injurious to him, if he had recanted.

Num. 50. Mr. Jel. I am aſhamed, quoth he, to ſee and read how our ‖‖Lor…us upon Pſal. 15.Ps 15Adverſaries the Papiſts, who ſcorn to appear for Vſury p. 223caſt it into our teeth, that the **Spanhemius in Dub. Evang.Calviniſts allow Vſury, &c.

And will you be ſuch Calviniſts and Hereticks?

Reply, The man is become as one of them, &c.

I anſwer, 1. How can he be as one of them, who even now called the Papiſts our Adverſaries, though not in the doctrine of Uſury, wherein we agree as we do in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

2. As for that which my Friend Dr. Rivet tells of the Popes publick banks, and of Scotus and Maldonate, that they ſpeak as much in effect as the Calviniſts; what is that to me, who know what limitations and cautions they have, and how they are for money given as an inſtrument of Negotiation? Mark that, as Maldonate ſpeaks, and that they are for damage, as Scotus ſaith, but not for uſe.

3. I am not bound to juſtifie all that any holds or writes, concerning Uſury; if he defends what is true, I aſſent, and am for that truth, if not, I leave him; as alſo then I do when Papiſts defend Theft in any perſon, or any ſin committed with the eye, or any other evil, as many ſuch things one may meet with in Tolet and in the Enchiridium of Navarra, and in Sa, Filiutius, and Eſtobar, Jeſuits.

4. But this is moſt certain that the Scholaſticks, the Canoniſts, and the Caſuiſts, are generally againſt all Vſury, by **Spanhemius in Dub. Evang.Spanhemius own confeſſion; for theſe are his own words, The Schoolmen, the Canoniſts, the Caſuiſts deciſions we do not regard.

And ††Idem ibid.again he ſaith, A wonder it is, that they do ſo anxiouſly and ſcrupulouſly proſcribe ALL USURY, even moderate ones too, though circumſcribed with due cautions, &c.

Num. 51. Whom ſhall one believe now, Him or the Ch.

Mr. Jel. Will theſe few Divines bear you ou… at the Tribunal of Chriſt?

Reply, Theſe few Divines (how few ſoever) have been famous for learning, and men of known integrity, and their reaſons ſo ſtrong, &c.

Whereunto I anſwer, 1. Who denies it that ſeveral are ſo?

2. But who knows not this too, that they have their great errors too, about and againſt the morality of the Chriſtian Sabbath ſome, and others being Lutherans, erring in their doctrine of Conſubſtantiation, and the ubiquity of Chriſts body.

But 3. I will ſay a little more of that which he ſpeaks but little of. Will thoſe few Divines bear you out before Chriſts Tribunal? viz. 1: That I ſay ſo, becauſe they will leave him there p. 224ſaving themſelves by their godly cautions. 2. That in this very thing I have a great Dr. and famous London Miniſter, Dr. Fenton for my Second, his words to the Uſurer are theſe.

Alas poor Soul, whither wilt thou turn thy ſelf for ſuccour, when thy friends forſake thee? What wilt thou plead for thy ſelf when thou comeſt before the Eternal Judge upon thy Trial? This methinks ſhould make the Champion's and every Uſurers heart to tremble.

4. As for his ſaying, that the practice of his regulated Uſury is under the allowance of publick laws; to that I have anſwered formerly proving the contrary, whereunto I will now add again the ſaying of the foreſaid great Dr. Fenton, viz. An abſolute contract for 10, 9, 8, or 6, in the 100, is without warrant or Authority even among thoſe Divines which have moſt favourably concluded for thee: Obſerve 6 in the 100.

Laſtly, To his additions, theſe be ſome of his men, ſome bad Papiſts he means, which will riſe in judgment againſt our Uſurers. I anſwer,

1. He wrongs me if he ſays that theſe be the only men which I mean, when I ſay that they would riſe in judgment againſt the Uſurers: No verily, I do not honour thoſe men ſo much who are very ſcrupulous in the matter of Uſury, and yet are for Whoredom and other grievous ſins; but I mean thoſe Schoolmen, Canoniſts, Caſuiſts, and learned Doctors, which are both againſt all Uſury and all other vices too, will riſe in Judgment.

2. And I can name one who nameth the foreſaid men, viz. Philip Caeſar, that eximious Saxonian Divine, who ſaid the ſame of the very Papiſts by name, about an hundred years ago, (for his Book againſt Uſury was printed, Anno 1578.) and his words are theſe, The Papiſts will condemn our Patrons of Ʋſury in the day of Judgment. Which he ſaid after he had read their Books, and the Lawyers Books againſt Uſury, which he met with in Dr. Ludder's houſe, as he was going to the Earl of Mansfield.

Num. 52. Mr. Jel. Divers modern Divines are againſt the ſtrict keeping of the Chriſtian Sabbath.

Reply, Yea, and theſe many of his Divines that have pleaded againſt all Uſury. I anſwer, where and which are they? let him name them.

But ſaith he, we will grant it, that it is their ſin though not the ſin of Uſury, yet we cenſure them not as damned for this ſin, &c. Whereunto my anſwer is,

1. Nor do I damn them, becauſe damnation is not denounced againſt them as againſt Uſury. Ezek. 18.12, 13. Pſal: 15. … 5.

p. 225But 2. The morality of the Chriſtian Sabbath denyed, is alledged to ſhew, that as thoſe Divines are out in the Sabbath, ſo they may be in Uſury.

3. Though I dare not ſay that they are damned, yet I will be bold to ſay that God has moſt ſeverely puniſhed the prophaners of his Sabbath in this life, with fire from heaven and otherwiſe too, as the Practiſe of Piety and Council of Paris tells us; ſo that by ſuch dreadful examples in England and elſewhere ſhewn, I for my part being newly come from Geneva and Holland, &c. where I ſaw the Lords day moſt horribly polluted, was mightily convinced, and to the ſtrict keeping of the Lords holy day induced; as alſo by the reading of the moſt rare writings of the Biſhops, Doctors, and godly Miniſters of England I was fully made to ſee the unlawfulneſs and odiouſneſs of Uſury, and ſo began to preach about thirty years ago in a Town called Kingsbridge, to all the Country round about; coming to my Lecture, which weekly I there preached upon Pſal. 15.5. the ſubſtance whereof with ſeveral enlargements is contained in my Ʋſurer caſt; which upon the earneſt intreaty and approbation of ſome of my brethren and others, I publiſhed, and am now defending, but I muſt haſten onward.

Num. 53. Mr. Jel. Is it not the beſt way, where two ways meet the one doubtful and the other ſure and ſafe, to chuſe the beſt?

Reply, If he had followed this Rule, he would not have condemned the guiltleſs, let him read Pſal. 15.3. whereunto I anſwer.

1. Is it guiltleſs for a man to commit murder, for ſo Calvin himſelf makes Uſury to be, upon the ſame Pſal. 15.5. and Cato too, a meer Pagan, by Calvin quoted upon the ſame Pſalm?

And again, Is a man guiltleſs that commits Theft, as Uſury is called alſo by a number of learned men, of whom I will cite but one, viz. **Dr. Williams in his true Church.Dr. Williams, who ſpeaking of Uſury, ſaith expreſly, This Theft tranſcends all other Thefts, and proves it; and here I could bring in a world of Divines writing upon the eighth Commandment, and making Ʋſury Theft, which alſo proves the morality of Ʋſuries prohibition, as another time, and in another place, if God permit, I ſhall ſhew, and have partly ſhewn in my Preface to the Reader.

Num. 54. But ſaith the Champion, let him hear Mr. Baxter and Calvin, and then he ſends me to my friend (as he calls him) Biſhop Hall, and to Grotius, and ſo ends with his own p. 226bravado, whereunto I ſhall briefly anſwer,

1. That Mr. Baxter ſpeaks not a word here, for that Uſury which is commonly practiſed in England; but in the ſame Directory ſends us very wiſely to larger Volumes, wherein I deſire to follow him, **Spanhem. in dub. Evang.approving withal of his godly cautions ſo much, and ſo of his * other moſt excellent Books, as that this man ſhall not make me, by all his malice he has againſt me, fall out with ſuch a man.

2. As for Calvin, he leaves me to my liberty elſewhere, and would not have me tied to his judgment, as I have formerly ſhewn.

3. And Biſhop Hall is not againſt me neither in his ſayings, that if we can find a way [mark if] free from oppreſſion and extortion (as Partnerſhip is, when we lend with a condition that the Borrower and we will divide the purchaſe equally, and be partners in loſs and gain) we may take that way.

4. As for Grotius, I will ſay as Spanhemius concerning Schoolmen; I do not regard the Schoolmen, &c. ſo I do not heed much what he ſaith, as long as we do not reach farther than God reaches, who is not only againſt Neſheck, but alſo againſt Tarbith, any increaſe, Ezek. 18.8. Note any increaſe.

5. Nor do his words clear the point, or ſatisfactorily anſwer the thing mentioned about the two ways, a doubtful and dangerous, and a ſure and ſafe, concerning which I ſhall ſay more before I end, ſhewing them plainly to every ones eye.

Num. 55. Mr. Jel. ſeventh anſwer, Thoſe very Divines which you lean upon, will be but a broken reed to you in this reſpect; becauſe they uſe ſo many limitations as ſcarce any Uſurer in the whole world doth obſerve, and at laſt make it no Uſury at all, I mean as it is commonly practiſed.

Reply, It may be preſumed then in his account, that there is ſome Uſury lawful, &c.

Whereunto I anſwer, [paſſing by many of his words to be read in his Pamphlet, as he doth by mine, thirty three lines at a time and more] after this manner.

1. That what I ſay in this caſe, many other greater Divines than he and my ſelf ſay likewiſe.

And 1. Dr. Fenton, as I have ſhewn already.

2. Biſhop Downam having rehearſed nine cautions, preſcribed by thoſe Divines which are for ſome Uſury, concludes thus. Theſe cautious men muſt obſerve, or elſe they may not build their practiſe upon the Authority of godly learned men, who have by theſe and p. 227ſuch like conditions ſo qualified Ʋſury, as that when they are obſerved, there is no Ʋſury, or at leaſt no actual Ʋſury committed.

3. Mr. Bolton, Divines pretended for Ʋſury deal with it as the Apothecary with Poyſon, working and tempering it with ſo many cautions and conditions, that in the end they make it no Ʋſury at all.

2. What he ſaith of other contracts and failings committed therein, and of preaching and praying, and infirmities and ſwervings from the rule of Gods Word, will not anſwer what is ſaid of cautions not obſerved, to make that which God calls Uſury no Uſury; for the contracts by him mentioned are lawful, and preaching and praying lawful and commanded, but Uſury is a thing unlawful and prohibited.

3. Nor does Gee take him off, nor juſtifie what he ſaith, as not ſaving one word for Uſury.

4. Nor will the Caſuiſts by their dolus malus help him, for they are againſt his Uſury altogether, as I have proved it.

5. And becauſe he ſaith that it may be preſumed that I account ſome Uſury lawful, I will now tell him what Uſury I hold lawful, viz. that which Divines call Recompenſatory, of which Gabriel Biel ſpeaks thus. Ʋſury is taken ſometimes very largely, for any thing which is taken in lending above the principal, and ſo all Ʋſury is not unlawful; for voluntary thankfulneſs has been pro…ed lawful formerly.

Num. 56. Of * Weems, The Primitive Church ordained that no man ſhould eat or drink with Uſurers, nor fetch fire from them, &c.

Reply, I hope Mr. Jelinger doth not practiſe by this rule, and if all other among us ſhould be bound to it, I know not what work it would make, eſpecially in Cities and Towns, whereunto I anſwer,

1. See its parallel, in 1 Cor. 5.11 if any man that is called a Brother be a fornicator or extortioner, (and ſo conſequently an Ʋſu…er) &c. with ſuch a one no not to eat.

2. Let it be noted, how this grave Author's Speech by this his Inferior is ſlighted, and though it be the more momentous, becauſe it ſhews how odious Uſury was in the Primitive Churches eyes.

3. Let him know that as he ſlights what Weemes relates of the Primitive Chriſtians, ſo I do and ſhall ſlight what he curſo…ly ſpeaks till he comes to Orphans and Widows, and by name …ther's being become more moderate, and of the Wittemberg …eſes, becauſe I have ſufficiently ſpoken of the ſame things …rmerly, whereunto may be added what he ſaith about the diſſent which he conceives to be among the Anti-uſurarians, p. 228who to my beſt knowledge do agree in the main matter and form of Uſury, ſo as that he cannot juſtly upbraid them with and for any notable difference in their opinions: So for the matter of Covenants and Bills and Bonds, put forth to anſwer what I ſaid to a Reply by him made, becauſe he comes ſo ſillily off with, as I THINK Mr. Baxter ſaith, and as I remember, HE SAITH too, ſo in Tenements, making the Uſurer like one that hath a Tenant, which the Uſurer is not. I ſlightly paſs over that too, and in like manner I take little notice of his words about a ſilent conſent, as if it were hatching ſome ſecret miſchief, which ſome are very well acquainted with, becauſe malice dictates, and calumnies uttereth what he ſaith; but the truth is, as he ſaith, ſome are too well acquainted with ſecret miſchief.

As for Ameſtus, by him quoted, he doth not trouble me, nor can, becauſe he proves nothing; ſo what he ſaith of my Saying by him ſet down, that he underſtands it not, ſignifies nothing to me, becauſe others do, of whom I have asked; but enough and enough ſaid to ſo little of matter.

Num. 57. Mr. Jel. 9. I am a Widow ſaith one, I am an Orphan ſaith another, and God knoweth that ſome cannot employ their money as ſome, &c. whereunto I anſwer, that now being paſt thoſe things, which I valued as little as he valued Reverend Mr. Weemes's Report, and come to more ſerious matters about Orphans and Widows, I intend to be more ſerious alſo, and large withal. And

1. I ſay, If God did intend to exempt the Fatherleſs and Widows, he would have ſaid ſomething of them, when he named Uſury and them together.

Reply, Whether Widows or Orphans in Iſrael might take Vſury of any, I ſhall not ſtand here to enquire; but as to the poor and the indigent, &c. And then I wonder at Mr. Bolton here, &c. whereunto I anſwer.

Here he has a fling again at that worthy man, becauſe he cannot abide his Writing againſt his Diana, even as his Adverſary M. S. could not abide his preaching againſt his Vſury; ſo that I will let them two battle together a while, and return to mine own defence.

Mr. Jel. The ſum of his ſecond Anſwer. They ſhould rather truſt God, &c.

Reply, Here it is taken for granted what is in debate, God has taken care for them, but this ſhould not take them from u…ng due diligence, and from all lawful means within their power for a ſubſiſtence.

A. But is Vſury a lawful way? who will ſay it that it is, b… p. 229an Vſurer, though he cannot prove it?

Num. 59. Mr. Jel. As for them that put out their money to Vſury, and ſay what will become of them elſe, if we do not put it out for them, I return this anſwer; they ſhould rather ask what will become of them that have no money left them?

Reply, Though they that have Wives muſt be as if they had none, and ſo conſequently thoſe that have money as if they had none; yet this muſt be underſtood of affection and not otherways, for theſe that have Eſtates muſt be as thoſe that have Eſtates, and thoſe that have money muſt improve their money for their livelihood.

I anſwer, But how? by Vſury? God forbid; for God forbids it: Let Grotius moderate between us, ſaith he.

I anſwer, A Godly Moderator! I do not intend to yield to his Moderatorſhip, for he is a man that can err and I am ſure doth, even God ſhall be a Moderator for me and my friends, who cannot err, and gives no toleration for Orphans and Widows: But if it be fit for me to hearken to men too, I will hearken to men that are ſound and Orthodox, and will not be for Sabbath breaking and looſneſs, and wink at Sports uſed on Gods holy day; and I will quote but three at preſent, viz.

1. **Philip Caeſar, p. 55.Philip Caeſar, Seeing Ʋſury is contrary to the word of God, and againſt the faith which we ſhould repoſe in him, and therefore no doubt it is unlawful for Orphans and Widows to uſe the ſame. And again he ſaith, What a wonderful company of Widows and Fatherleſs is there, which having nothing of their own yet are ſuſtained? And yet farther, Let theſe which are their Guardians and Keepers of their money, if any come to them, buy ground, and the Revenues thereof let them beſtow on their maintenance the ſame money; or if that cannot be done, he that will convert it to his own uſe, and diſtribute to their ſuſtenance, doth like an honeſt man, &c.

2. ††Gabriel Powel, p. 55.Gabriel Powel, If Ʋſury be in it ſelf evil and condemned by the word of God, then it cannot be good in any, Rom. 3.8. it is ſaid, We muſt not do evil that good may come of it, therefore we muſt not relieve Orphans and Widows by Ʋſury.

3. ‖‖Mr. Moſs.Mr. Moſs, In the days of King Edward, men being more careful to provide for the poor than now, the Orphans were well and ſufficiently provided for, even when Ʋſury was altogether and utterly forbidden.

p. 230VVhat Grorius ſaith, that Chriſt has not left a peculiar precept of this thing, ſignifies nothing to me; ſeeing we have his mind plainly ſet down in general, Luke 6.35. my ſuppoſed caſe he ſlights, p. 100. and therefore I ſlight him, and what he ſaith.

Num. 59. Mr. Jel. Obj. 10. God knoweth that I cannot live elſe, becauſe I do not know how to employ my money otherwiſe. I anſwer,

1. Are there no other ways in the world to live by, but Uſury?

Reply, Let Mr. Baxter anſwer this. As for them that ſay it may be as well improved otherwiſe, they are unexperienced men. To this, 1: Let St. Chryſoſtom anſwer. 2. Spanhemius. 3. My ſelf for my ſelf.

1. Let Great Chryſoſtom anſwer Great Mr. Baxter, Chryſoſtom, I ſay, who being ſo great an Archbiſhop, reſ…ding in ſo great a City as Conſtantinople, the Metropolis of the World whereof he was Archbiſhop, and ſo one that muſt needs have had great experience, his words are: Are there no other ways of living juſtly to be found? Is there not Husbandry and Tillage to be taken in hand? With whom

2. I joyn Great Spanhemius, who after he had diſputed for a kind of Uſury (as I ſhewed once already) a good while, at laſt broke out into this confeſſion, as I ſaid before now. It muſt neeeds be confeſſed, that it is far better for thee to beſtow thy money either in Husbandry, or Merchandizing, or any other honeſt way to increaſe thine Eſtate, than to lend it upon Ʋſury. Shewing how men may employ their money otherwiſe than in Uſuries way, and to my knowledg he was a very experienced man, which I can ſpeak, becauſe he was related to me and we lived together at Genevah firſt, from whence he removed into Holland to Leyden, and I into England, where he has been a conſiderable time alſo; ſo that having been in ſo many Countries, as High Germany, part of Italy, and in France alſo, and Holland, he could not be a **VVhichWhich cauſed many Nobles to make uſe of his advice in Civil …. C…rk in his Liſe, p. 50….Stranger to the worlds affairs, but one that could wri…e from his great and manifold experiences, what a man may do with his money without Vſury.

3. As for me, though I muſt confeſs that I am one of the meaneſt Miniſters, yet ſome ſmall experience I have gotten by my being in ſo many Countries, Kingdoms, and Vniverſities as I have been in, in my time; wherein I have ſeen and obſerved p. 231what uſe men make of their mony; ſo that upon requeſt I wrote and intend hereafter (when my other Vſury Books promiſed by me ſhall come forth) to Publiſh very many ways whereby men may lawfully and without Vſury employ their mony, beſides the ways of, at leaſt, ten great and learned men more, leaving men to chuſe either any of their ways or of mine, as they pleaſe; hoping that if my poor experience be not ſufficient, theirs will make up what is wanting in mine.

Num. 60. Mr. Jel. How do they live that have no mony to lend? Whereunto his Reply is not worth the mentioning, it is ſo ſhort and inconſiderable.

Mr. Jel. How do they live in thoſe Countries where Vſury is not known, in the Indies. &c.

Reply, There too Gold and Silver are not currant money, no wonder then that Vſury there is not exerciſed in the loan thereof: We have heard of Nations that have had no Houſes but Tents, but what is that to us that have Houſes? VVhereunto I anſwer.

1. That the Gold and Silver there was not coyned as it was here in former times, yet it may be now ſince the Spaniards arrival, and ſo plentiful Gold has been there, as that an Indian King had his houſe full of it, and was ſlain by the Spaniards for it; and likely it is that they deal by way of Exchange, as now alſo they do, and it may be they would deal now and have dealt formerly in a way of Vſury, if they had not thought it to be againſt Nature, as indeed it is.

As for the Tents by him ſpoken of, they ſignifie nothing; for they ſerved inſtead of Houſes, as in the Patriarchs time, Gen. 18.1. and Heb. 11.9.

Mr. Jel. From Chryſoſtom, &c. I need not trouble my ſelf about him any more, having ſpoken enough of him already even now.

And as for the hazard which the Champion takes an occaſion to ſpeak of, bringing Grotius again with him, and Dr. T…yler to bear him company, of that I have ſpoken at full, ſo of Chryſoſtom ſpeaking againſt Merchandiſing.

Num. 61. Mr. Jel. Obj. 11. I lend for pities ſake, and do good with my money, &c.

I anſwer, Doſt thou good with thy money? Thou doſt but furniſh many men with ſinews to do miſchief, to oppreſs others in bargaining, and foreſtalling, &c.

Reply, If this be ſaid of all that lend, it is a notorious calumny.

Anſwer 1. He cannot but ſee that I ſpeak not of all, becauſe I ſpeak of many.

p. 2322. As for his occaſionally, it makes againſt him too, for we muſt not give men an occaſion to do evil.

3. And whereas he ſaith, that ſuch ill accidents may befal giving too; I anſwer, It's true, but then there is not an occaſion lawfully given as by unlawful Uſury, but taken by lawful giving.

Mr. Jel. Nay many Families and men are undone by Uſury, or at leaſt ſo entangled, oppreſſed, and put down, as that, &c.

I anſwer, True, they may thank themſelves partly, and the Uſurer chiefly, who by and for his filthy uſury brought them to ſo much miſery and miſchief.

Mr. Jel. But the Borrower gives thanks and is glad.

I anſwer, Being forced, he gives that and is glad, becauſe he is neceſſitated to go to the Uſurer.

Reply, If the neceſſity be of Nature's making, and he borrow that he may live, and Traffick here, lending ought to be free.

I anſwer, Here now is ſomething to be commended, and I ſay ſtill that there is no reaſon for it, that a Purchaſer growing rich by my money, ſhould not freely and thankfully make me a partaker of his free gain, which thing Divines call a gratuity, which may be taken.

Num. 62. Mr. Jel. But being forced, he gives thanks.

Reply, Who forced him? Nothing but his own convenience drew him to it, and I pray may not a man gain by the money he pays me reaſonable uſe for? And if ſo, then he owes me thanks for the moneys he has gained by means of mine, and then Demoſthenes will tell him, &c.

I anſwer, His convenience ſometimes may, but commonly neceſſity makes me to borrow money. 2. He might get and not get. 3. He is bound to give thanks, not uſe. As for Demoſthenes, he is for me, calling and making Uſury odious, and the Vſurers Name odious; for he would have a man ſo wary in his dealings, as that he may not g…t the odious name of an Vſurer, as his words do ſhew it.