View of Some Exceptions Made by a Romanist, Part 2 · Subpart 35 – Subpart 37

View of Some Exceptions Made by a Romanist · Part 2 · Subpart 35 – Subpart 37

p. 100C. 16. Anſw: to Chap 16.

Your doctrine of damning all that are out of the Church of Rome, you have enlarged much above the occaſion that invited you to it, for all that his Lordſhip had ſaid on that theme was onelyonly this, that your certaine and undoubted damning of all out of the Church of Rome, averſeth him from it. Which if it be true, you cannot blame him; (for ſure they that heare the puniſhment of judging, Mat. 7. [being judged of the Lord] will have little love to that piece of ſenſuality, (or conſequently to the religion that requires them to runne upon this danger.) And that the charge is true of you, you doe at firſt acknowledge, by labouring to prove that there is no uncharitableneſſe in it. Secondly, that it is neceſſary for you to maintaine, or that otherwiſe you muſt fall into ſome great abſurdity, particularly this, that there is any Church but that which is governed by the See Apoſtolique; which is a rare petitio principii againe, and ſaves us the paines of ſaying one word more in defence of the truth and juſtice of thoſe true words of his Lordſhip.

For indeed that encloſure of the Church Chriſtianity, and Salvation, to thoſe that are under the Roman ſubmiſſion, is the uncharitableneſſe that you are charged of. The envy of which it ſeemes (after all your confidence) you are willing to remove from you, and therefore adde an handſome lenitive, to keepe any from thinking that your doctrine is rigorous or harſh. And truly if you might be taken at your word, he were very unkind p. 101that would require more charity of you then you yeild even to Pagans themſelves, whom you will not hold Pagans, unleſſe they be guilty of their errour through affected or culpable ignorance; and then ſure you will be as good to us, (that would be a little above Pagans) and till you can prove us to be guilty of errour, and that through affected or culpable ignorance, with an obſtinate mind, without preparation to be reformed, or hearken to reaſon when 'tis told us, (which till your arguments are more convincing, undoubtedly this diſcourſe of yours will not evidence us to be) we are in full capacity of your charity, and therefore ſhall not follow you any further; (leſt we provoke you againe) in this point.

Section 3 Eſpecially ſince you are at laſt in ſo good humour, that you utterly diſclaime this damning and firing men in another world.On occaſion of this or the like ſpeech of mine anſwer, the Apologiſt in his review thought fit to adde theſe words at the end of his 16 Chapter: [Three propoſitions there are which we maintaine; Firſt, that none but true Chriſtians can be ſaved. Secondly, none but true Catholiques can be ſaved, for true Catholiques and true Chriſtians be all one. Thirdly, none be true Catholiques but ſuch as live under the obedience of the See of Peter, and many doe ſo that through ignorance doe not ſeeme to doe. The Gentiles find fault with the firſt propoſition, divers Sectaries with the ſecond, and now the Proteſtants with the third. All theſe have beene pretended by ſome or other to be falſe, but how to be uncharitable is very hard to be underſtood.] To all which being onelyonly ſaid not attempted to be proved, I ſhall onelyonly ſay that I am ſory to ſee him out of his good mood ſo ſoone, and deſire he will not expect we ſhall be ſo tame as to thinke him charitable that ſaith none of any other See but Saint Peters can be ſaved. I beſeech God to confirme you in this temper, and deſire you may be taken at your word, and that witneſſe may be called of this charity of yours, for ſure there be others of your brethren that have not uſed to grant ſo much.

Section 4 As for that of burning men here for religion, you ſeem unwilling to be tryed by antiquity in this point, becauſe, ſay you, Antiquity did not all it might, but left ſomewhat to poſterity to adde; yet ſure this was a little unlucky that your additions to antiquity ſhould be of this bloudy complection; Chriſt's addition to the Ancients was to love and bleſſe and pray for enemies, not to retaliate injuries upon any tearmes, and your foreign, your improvement of the ancient doctrine and practice, is of ſomewhat a diſtant making, your Sermon on the mount (Ebal it ſeemes) to your diſciples, is perſecuting and maſſacring p. 102of friends, which never provoked you but by not being entirely of your opinion.

Section 5 But it ſeemes you meane to prove it too, that this bloudy doctrine is no ſtranger to antiquity, and your firſt proofe is from the Jewes, whoſe practice it was to puniſh impious people, and ſuch as with new doctrine ſought to infect others; To which I anſwer, that thoſe againſt whom thoſe Jewiſh ſeverities were in force, were Atheiſts, and Idolaters, and falſe Prophets, that would take men off from the acknowledgment of the one God to Gentiliſme, which is ſure ſomewhat a diſtant ſtate from that of Proteſtants at this day.

Section 6 Your ſecond proofe is from the Canon, and your third from the Imperiall law, of which ſeeing you give us no taſt in either, and yet becauſe ſome men may have appetite to ſee what grounds you had for ſuch affirmation, I conceived it a probable courſe to know your mind by looking into Bellarmine your great Champion; from the view of whole Collections, l. 3. de laicis. c. 21. this will be the reſult.

Section 7 That for the Canon law, the authorities are not fetcht from the ancient Canons of any of the firſt or generall Councels, but onelyonly c. ad abolendam; cap. excommunicamus. ext. de haeret. & cap. ſuper eo, de haeret. in 6. (all which is no more then if you had cited it from your Popes (who muſt not looke to be ſo authenticall in this caſe) and yet will hardly come home to the burning of your fellow Chriſtians, onelyonly becauſe they will not ſubmit to the Pope of Rome, the onelyonly thing for which we were even now to be damned) and from the Councell of Conſtance; which beſides that it is of a ſhort ſtanding about 200 yeares ago is made Ainfamous in this matter, by that vile reſolution of the [no Faith to be kept with Heretiques] the groſſeneſſe of which poſition may make it reaſonable to expect this bloudy doctrine from them, but withall to deprive it of all authority with others.

Section 8 As for the Imperiall law, theſe places he produces; Firſt, L. Manichaeos, cod. de haeret. and to this I anſwer, that that law makes not hereſy capitall, but at the utmoſt makes it capable of an action after death, ſuch is the action of infamy, &c. and ſo they that have died Heretiques, may for the warning of others be proceeded againſt, (as you know Traitors after death are infamous, p. 103i. e. their children deprived of their honour, though the Father dyed unpuniſhed, becauſe undiſcerned) but that comes not home to our preſent purpoſe of burning or killing. Then L. Arriani, Cod. eodem. where indeed death was the puniſhment of the Manichees, who you know were a high ranke of Heretiques, making two principles (which is in effect two Gods) the good and the evill, God and the Devil. But for others, viz. Arians and Macedonians, though thoſe were Heretiques, condemned by the firſt generall Councels, and are expreſſely there named, there is yet no ſuch puniſhment appointed them; and Laſtly, L. quicunque cod. eodem. in which ſaith Bellarmine, jubentur occidi omnes qui prava docere tentant, all are commanded to be put to death who attempt to teach wicked things. But you muſt obſerve that that law being againſt the Eutychians, many penalties are there aſſigned to the ſeverall degrees of the guilt of that hereſy; poena exilii, ſi Epiſcopos & Sacerdotes conſtituerint, ſcripta eorum nemo habeat ſub poena deportationis perpetuae, nemo eos audiat ſub poena 10 librarum auri, ultimo ſupplicio coerceantur qui illicita docere tentaverint. Baniſhment if they conſtituted Biſhops or Prieſts, perpetuall baniſhment upon having any of their books, 10 pounds or libres of gold to any that heard them, and capitall puniſhment to thoſe that attempt to teach unlawfull things. Which laſt clauſe (that cited by Bellarmine, and by him extended to all falſe doctrine) belongs peculiarly to the Eutychians, for of them onelyonly before the diſcourſe was; and beſide the rule is, odioſa reſtringenda, lawes of puniſhments, &c. muſt alwaies be taken in the moſt reſtrained ſence; and ſo the utmoſt that any of theſe extends to, is onelyonly in theſe two hereſies of Manichaeiſme and Eutychianiſme, and that in caſe of teaching the contrary to law, and abuſing the people, and that after faire warning and prohibition; and all this, if it were granted (as truly I know no obligation that lyes on all Chriſtians to thinke themſelves regulated by the lawes of the Emperours) would amount to very little againſt Proteſtants, who may well paſſe for as moderate Heretiques, as Arians and Macedonians, who were not puniſhed with death.

Section 9 Tis true indeed, there is ſomewhat of this nature to be found againſt the Donatiſts (though Bellarmine mentions it not (L. Si p. 104quis rebaptizare C. ne ſanctum baptiſma iteretur; but this was not againe for opinion, but onelyonly in taking upon them to rebaptize any, and peculiarly on the Circumcellions, which were a bloudy kinde of people, and their vileneſſe of this nature, guilt enough to owne that ſeverity: whereas on the other ſide we finde that Idacius and Ithacius were condemned by the Biſhops of France for being authors of puniſhing ſome Pricillianiſts with the ſword; and in the Eaſt a whole Synod was condemned for conſenting to the burning of Begomyle; and ſo much for your authorities, or more whenſoever you pleaſe to produce them. From whence will appeare the wide diſtance of your practices in theſe and other Kingdomes from that, that the moſt Popiſh Canons or Imperiall Conſtitutions were bloudy enough to determine; there neither Arians, nor Macedonians, but that prodigy of Manichaiſme, and the Eutychians teaching, and that (as I conceive by prava & illicita) things contrary not onelyonly to wholſome doctrine, but to the lawes of the Empire; This I ſay, Bbecauſe if the crime were onelyonly their opinions, I cannnot imagine why the Arians and Macedonians ſhould fare ſo much better then the Eutychians, nay why Apoſtates ſhould onelyonly be fined, and Jewes onelyonly under ſome reſtraints (as from Polygamy) and payments, and not put to death, ſave onelyonly in caſe of keeping there Purim (which was for the great contumely done to Chriſt in that feaſt, the hanging Haman in effigie, and Chriſt next to him) and I ſay, onelyonly Eutychians put to death, unleſſe there were ſomewhat elſe in it beſide their doctrine. And then if you will make the compariſon to goe no farther, then our ſelves, what ſholes of poore perſons (farre enough from the docere illicita & prava, teaching illegall things, even from teaching at all) were in Queene Maries daies foreign, whole hecatombes at once offered up to your fury.

Section 10 So remarkable are your proceedings herein, that I feare it was not a jeſt of him that ſaid at Geneva, Servetus occidendus eſt, ne apud exteros Eccleſiae noſtrae malè audiant; That Servetus was to be burnt that their Churches might not heare ill abroad, i. e. that the Papiſts might not be ſcandalized; which if it were the conſideration that mov'd in that matter, then have you more bloud lying at your doore, then what you have ſpilt, even that p. 105which in care and caution, thoſe whom you recriminate, ſhed by your example, and that you might not be ſcandalized at their mercy and lenity.

Section 11 This were I confeſſe an ill excuſe to them that were ſo carefull to tranſcribe that bloudy leſſon, (and which is worſe, if you will have mine opinion, they have no better) but yet will be an argument that you are not overfit to accuſe them for it. Eraſmus among you, and Caſtellio among us were about the beginning of the reformation very bitter againſt ſuch dealing: the former, you may ſee his notes upon Saint Jer. Ep. ad Laet. t. 1. p. 39. where he can hardly allow them the name of Chriſtians that fight for religion (kill for religion) though againſt the Turke, as if warre were wont to make Chriſtians, cum ipſi Turcam in pectore geramus, when the very uſing of this violence is a prime piece of Turciſme. The latter wrote a booke on purpoſe againſt that practice; I wiſh the whole Chriſtian world of both parties would ſuffer themſelves to be repreſented by a couple of ſuch meeke and honeſt proxies; be you pleaſed to convert as many as you can to the doctrine of neither kiling nor damning, and I will promiſe you to doe the like, and that will be better imployment for us then this debate.

Section 12 And becauſe examples are the moſt popular arguments, I will helpe you to one of this nature, and leave you to apply it; Nero went through Greece a contending in the Muſica certamina with all that pretended to that skill, if he had the better of it he was crowned, if not, he tooke care that they that had the better of him were put to death. The iſſue of it was, that they that had skill did on purpoſe play as ill as they could; he conquered wherever he came, was crowned when he was there, and when he was gone, was counted a mad-man.

Section 13 I ſhall onelyonly adde, what upon more exact enquiry upon that hint of the Canon law I finde, that the elder Canons or decrees of Gratian as they never mention the putting Heretiques to death; ſo in many paſſages out of Saint Auſtin they doe diſſwade the Emperour from it, and onelyonly mention ſome other mulcts and reſtraints for them. The new Canons or the Decretals of your Popes are generally for delivering to the ſecular arme, but name not poenam mortis neither; but what that ſignifies the p. 106Chriſtian world now knowes well enough; onelyonly one peice of hypocriſy I heard of (and by requeſt or propoſall of Spalatenſis. L. 6. c. 5. Sect. 171. doe gueſſe the truth of the report) in your proceedings in this matter; your Spirituall Courts when they ſo deliver up, are wont to interpoſe [ita tamen ut non admittant poenam mortis (or to that purpoſe) but ſo that they proceed not to death, when yet they knew well enough that that is the meaning of your delivering. Nay the Canons that require that the ſecular hand muſt proceed with all rigour againſt Heretiques thus delivered to them, will ſoone excommunicate any that doe not thus underſtand their meaning.

Section 14 Beſides theſe arguments ab authoritate, you have another drawne, as you ſay, from Reaſon, and the common rules of equity and juſtice, (but adde not one word to prove what you ſay ſo very improbably, but onelyonly condemne all of high preſumption Cand arrogance who ſhould be ſo hardy as to impugne or queſtion it) one would thinke you an inchanted Knight that when you have never a weapon in your hand, nor ſecond neare you, (but onelyonly the names of ſo many men, and armes to call for) it ſhould yet paſſe for arrogance, preſumption, and hardyneſſe in any to combat with you.

Section 15 That you did not fitly produce your teſtimonies to your purpoſe, 'tis plaine enough by what followes, the limitations and reſtraints that this doctrine, you ſay, muſt be bounded with, whereas your citations were generall without any reſtraint.

Section 16 Your reſtraint or exception is, that where a Kingdome is in a peaceable poſſeſſion of Catholique religion, there 'tis no cruelty to inflict theſe puniſhments on the Teachers of new doctrines. And for this you ſay there is reaſon, which cannot probably be contradicted, but are ſo very uncourteous and contemptuous to us, as not to thinke us worthy to partake of the leaſt ſyllable of ſuch reaſon, unleſſe that muſt goe for one, that wicked men aime at temporall contents, and are conſequently with-held by temporall puniſhments, which ſhall be acknowledged a reaſon, when difference in opinion appears to be an impiety of ſo much deſigne, & all whom you call Heretiques, are by you proved to be wormes of the earth, deepe worldly deſigners alſo.

For truly I confeſſe, to all thoſe things which are committed p. 107by any, who may juſtly be preſumed to commit them againſt conſcience, for ſome worldly intereſt, I ſhould give my willing ſuffrage that ſome temporall bitterneſſe ſhould be opportioned; that ſo ſeeing their Error, and finding temporall paines in ſtead of temporall advantages to be their portion, they may be diſciplin'd to better and more honeſt thoughts; nay if the doctrines tend to liberty, I meane either as Mahomets did to all kinde of voluptuous living, or that other liberty (that ſome of your friends and ſome others that call themſelves reformed, but in my opinion are very farre from it, have beene guilty of) the ſhaking off the yoake of civill obedience to the Magiſtrate ſet over them by God, it is then lawfull to coerce ſuch innovators, if the prudence of the State ſhall thinke fit. But difference in opinion (though it be in a Kingdome never ſo peaceably poſſeſt of the Catholique Religion) if it tend not to any of theſe dangers, nor be convincible of thoſe impieties and deſignes, will by no reaſon or conſequence be involved in that number.

Section 18 This you ſeem to be content with, when you adde that this ſeverity muſt not be extended to all that any where teach or profeſſe erroneous doctrines; but upon better conſideration of your following words, 'tis cleare that your reſtraint or exception lookes another way, viz. that againſt thoſe that are not the firſt invaders, but another generation ſucceeding them, whoſe errour is contracted by the vice of education, &c. the Church doth not execute the ſeverity of the lawes. In which words, though we of this, and all other Proteſtant Kingdomes at this day have ſo farre our parts, as that, if it were never ſo much in your power, you ought upon theſe grounds not to hurt us, becauſe we are the progeny, and not the firſt invaders; yet ſeeing all the reſtraint is for the execution onelyonly of the ſeverity of the lawes, and thoſe lawes are ſuppoſed by you to be in force againſt Heretiques, and ſo againſt us, whom you call by that name; we have great reaſon to thinke, there is little kindneſſe in this preſent reſtraint of yours.

Section 19 For to the utmoſt of my underſtanding of your words, it remaines ſtill free to you after this conceſſion, to be as ſevere to any, as your power will enable you. And if by us at any time any claime of favour ſhould be put into your Conſiſtory, your anſwer probably would be by this dilemma; either you are invaders, p. 108(and ſeeing beginnings are alwaies weakeſt, all that are not able to reſiſt or defend themſelves, ſhall goe for invaders) and then you have no title to mercy by this tenure; or elſe you Dare a numerous off-ſpring and progeny of them (and ſo poſſibly able to reſiſt) and then you ſhall have mercy; If we ſtand on theſe tearmes with you, and your order for reſtraint of ſeverity hold no longer then our ſtrength to reſiſt you, then we ſhall ſcarce acknowledge the obligation, but thinke our enemies on the other extreame as kind as you; for both of you are good at being mercifull, when you are on the weaker party, but both very tyrannicall when you begin to be ſtrong.

Section 20 If you were ſo conſtant to your articles of reſtraint, as that all the proſperities of warre, advantages of place, and auxiliaries, could not tempt you to a maſſacre of any, ſave onelyonly ſome one (ſingle corrupter and invader) or two in an age, I might then have reaſon to thinke I might have miſtaken your meaning, but certainly you have beene as cruell on the cubs, as ever you were on the old foxes, and made as little ſcruple to put many thouſands to death in one night (whom you could not thinke to be all leaders in factions, or invaders) (as the ſtories of France will teſtifie, and the very words of the bull of Ʋrban the eighth, to encourage the King of France, to root out the quadrupedes in Galliâ ſtabulantes, &c. as any one John Huſſe alone by himſelfe at another time. And that you will have this latitude to let looſe your reſtraint again, when time ſerves, it may ſeeme probable by what you adde of Auſtria, Stiria, and Carinthia, whoſe priviledges it ſeemes laſted no longer then you thought fit; For aſſoone as you thought it ſeaſonable, they were preſently pronounced ſeditious and conſpiratours, and ſo put to the ſword; Eand for France and Poland, I wiſh the names of Maſſacres had never beene heard in either of them, or at leaſt that the Pictures of them with words of papall approbation, were not to be ſeen at Rome to teſtifie what is the cauſe of your preſent kindneſſe, (viz. the difficulty of the worke) that the Proteſtants there at this time are not moleſted.

Section 21 As for your recrimination againſt Proteſtants, ſeeing it is very univerſall (ſuffer Catholiques in no place) and very ſharpe, (that they perſecute Catholiques whereſoever they are ſtronger, p. 109after a very violent, mercyleſſe, deſperate manner, ſlay, impriſon, robbe, baniſh, defame, &c.) I muſt beſeech you either to prove it againſt this your Country, or elſe to make it reparations, and remember when time ſerves, that when Proteſtants are thought to perſecute you, then preſently 'tis a proceeding much worſe and more unreaſonable then the Turkiſh.

Section 22 As for the truth of your ſuggeſtion, certainly the number and ſtrength of Proteſtants hath for many yeares ſurmounted that of Papiſts in this Kingdome; and yet I ſhall be confident you will be poſed to produce the example of any one ſince Queene Maries daies that in this Kingdome was put to death meerly for Freligion, without being guilty of ſomething elſe, which by the knowne lawes of the Realme is lyable to the puniſhment of treaſon. And for the other penall lawes in this Kingdome, which are not Capitall, but pecuniary mulcts, &c. I ſhall ſay that 'tis ſomewhat hard, that we muſt be thought worthy of all thoſe bitter invectives, which you yet farther adde, becauſe I conceive there was never any Kingdome, that own'd any religion, but there was ſome difference made betwixt that, and all other, in reſpect of temporall priviledges, and favours, and immunities, and any ſuch difference reaches neare as high, and goes as deepe as pecuniary mulcts. And beſide it is not irrationall to ſay, that the inflicting ſuch mulcts may very probably tend to the quiet, and ſo to the advantage rather, then to the oppreſſion of ſuch ſufferers; it being not without example that the ſuſpicions of the people, and jealouſies that the eſtabliſhed religion ſhall be diſcountenanced, (having no deeper ground then an imagination that the Prince may have inclined to give toleration to the other party, or but immunity from theſe puniſhments) hath brought ſuch odium upon the preſent government, and ſharpeneſſe on thoſe thus thought to be favour'd, that in compariſon with theſe ill accidents, a few pecuniary mulcts might paſſe for a priviledge, as the letting of bloud is to be eſteem'd by thoſe who are entring into a pluriſie for want of it.

Section 23 If upon theſe conſiderations, ſuch mulcts as theſe may not be conceived ſupportable, I muſt confeſſe 'tis an hard lot to be placed in a throne betwixt two contrary pretenders, and as unhappy for any ingenuous man, to make any confeſſion to you, who p. 110from his Lordſhip's acknowledgment, that the Church of England is a little too blame in this point, conclude, that in confeſſing this he inſinuates all. This 'tis to deale with men who cannot imagine it poſſible, that a man's words and thoughts ſhould be of the ſame latitude. Should I by the ſame Logicke conclude, that you, by confeſſing that all invaders for Religion muſt be put to death, doe intimate, that all kinde of Proteſtants muſt be executed, I hope you would ſay you had wrong done you. And yet to tell you truth, the ſubtlety of your next diſtinction would give any man that obſerved it, great temptation ſo to conclude of you. For after your citation of S. Th. of Aquine, and the Schoolemen, you are pleaſed to communicate to us a notable Myſtery, [that you doe uſe reaſons to perſwade, and plant your faith, (and truly the telling us you cannot erre, and upon that bottome building all your moſt irrationall concluſions, is no ſpeciall exerciſe of the reaſonable faculty) and onelyonly fence it exteriourly, and afarre off, with ſtatutes of temporall ſeverity againſt invaders, which, ſay you, is another thing from defending it interiourly by that meanes, i. e. from juſtifying the right and truth of religion by them.

Section 24 I ſhould never have beene ſo uncivill as to have affixt ſuch a Gſence to your diſtinction, had you not beene your owne interpreter. It is, as if you had ſaid, you are not to be accuſed for planting religion by armes, becauſe your ſwords doe onelyonly force men to be of your minds, doe not give them any reaſons why they ſhould. And truly I have not heard any man ſay, that your armes did fence religion interiourly, (being the unapteſt thing in the world, to juſtifie the right, and truth of religion; and therefore you need not diſavow that ſo providently) the great Turke could ſend a letter to your Pope, and anſwer and confute his bull of inciting the Princes of Chriſtendome to take up armes againſt him, for crucifying their god, and tell him, that as 'twas a great falſity to charge on him what was proper to the Jewes, the crucifying of Chriſt, (the Turke being deſcended from the Trojans, and therefore deſiring the Popes aide againſt the Grecians, to avenge their murther of the Trojan Hector, a kinde of god of theirs) ſo if the Pope were truly a worſhipper of Chriſt, he would never invade any nation upon quarrell of religion; ſo p. 111farre is this kinde of fighting (in the knowledge of all, even of Turkes themſelves) from juſtifying of the truth, that if is a very great argument of the falſeneſſe of any ſect of Chriſtian religion; a plaine demonſtration that they doe not obey the Chriſt whom they worſhip.

Section 25 The uſing the ſword as an exteriour meanes of propagating your religion, is all that is laid to your charge, and that it ſeemes you are content to yeild us. Though, within a page or two more, you have forgotten your ſelfe againe, and ſay, that for publique coaction or violence you doe not owne it. I wiſh you did not.

Section 26 And that you may for the time to come deale clearely, and never have minde to ſucke in your words, and owne it againe, I ſhall in paſſing mention to you a narration concerning an honeſt Philoſopher in Valens his time; It was Themiſtius, who before his death turn'd from Ariſtotelian to Chriſtian, but I conceive was not yet converted, when this ſtory is related of him. Valens in Antioch, ſaith the (a)(a)Hiſt. Trip. l. 8. ex Zozomen.Hiſtorian, had vehemently perſecuted the Chriſtians that were not of his opinion, had not a booke of Themiſtius the Philoſopher recall'd him, in which he perſwaded him, that he ought not to be cruell to any (b)(b)Propter diſcordiam Eccloſiaſticorum dogmatum.for a difference of Eccleſiaſticall opinions, ſeeing among the Pagans themſelves there were more than 300 ſects differing all from one another; And perhaps this might be wore (c)(c)Forte hoc deo gratum magis eſſet.acceptable (at leaſt more pardonable) before God, becauſe God is not eaſily knowne, and is glorified in different manners, on purpoſe that every man may (d)(d)Magis timeat, i. e. be more humble, as fear by Saint Paul is oppoſed to high-mindedneſſe, and feare and trembling is by the Greek fathers rendred humility.feare the more, the more he wants of the integrity and perfection of that knowledge of him, either how he is, or how qualified, or how great he is. By the reaſons of Themiſtius, ſaith he, mitior factus eſt Imperator, the Emperour became more mild. It may not be unfit for your friends to conſider the example, and doe ſo too.

Section 27 As for your challenge to us, that if we will reſtore all we have taken from Papiſts in Europe, you will reſtore what you have taken from us, it is a good ſafe boaſt; you know that it is not in any replyers power to ſtrike the bargaine. Yet, if all the pecuniary mulcts under the reigne of the three laſt Princes in this Kingdome be price enough to ranſome and fetch backe the bloud ſhed by you in Queene Maries daies, I doubt not but I ſhall be as forward as you to accept that challenge.

p. 112Section 28 Meane while for the juſtification of our ſevereſt lawes in this point, you cannot but confeſſe that in moſt Kingdomes ſtrong preſumptions have beene thought ſufficient to make lyable to puniſhment. In the Canon law the proving of nudus cum nudâ, that ſuch a man and woman were taken naked together, is preſumption enough to bring the puniſhment of adultery on any. And when our Queene had run ſo many dangers by Prieſts, Hand thereupon Capitall lawes were made, that no ſuch ſhould come into the Kingdome, or if they did they ſhould be preſumed traiterouſly diſpoſed, and puniſhed accordingly; and this Statute thus legally made, conveyed to the knowledge of all ſuch, it hath been a very rationall preſumption againſt any that ſhould be ſo found; Though as 'tis poſſible that nudus cum nudâ may be no adulterer, ſo ſuch a Prieſt may have no traiterous purpoſe. And yet if you marke it, (unleſſe ſince theſe times of troubles) very few of you have ſuffered among us by this Statute.

Section 29 Sir, you had great leaſure, when you could enlarge ſo to triumph over us for acknowledging our Church fallible, and profeſſe to diſcharge his Lordſhip from being your Advocate, if he ſpeake ſo ill for his Client. This you might have done long ſince, and unleſſe your favour may be had upon ſome other tearmes then undertaking the Infallibility of meere creatures, we muſt all be content to be diſcarded by you.

Section 30 Yet after all your turning away, and ſlighting, we ſhall never be ſo provoked, as to puniſh you for the reſult of what we preſcribe you. If your beſt uſe of reaſon in the interpretation of Scripture (and not any prejudice, or paſſion, or fault of yours) Ihave ſincerely brought you to your opinions, and no light that is offer'd, hath beene neglected, and yet all prove unſufficient to convince you, I ſhall never ſeverely pronounce againſt you; and if you will ſay, and make good as much to me, our affections may meet, though not our braines, and both of us have charity enough to cover in each other, a multitude of errours.

Section 31 Your catalogue of Sects in this Kingdome, I ſhall not goe about to examine, but onelyonly tell you, that your infallibility hath beene lyable to ſuch miſadventures alſo, and had not the charme or skill of keeping all within its circle; if it had, there would p. 113then at this time have beene no body to diſpute againſt you.

Section 32 In the cloſe of your long Chapter, I wonder you ſhould be ſo covetous or ambitious of lengthning it one page farther, by charging on his Lordſhip, that he charges you, that becauſe you pretend to be infallible, you have leſſe reaſon to preſcribe to others; whereas his Lordſhip charges no ſuch thing upon you, but onelyonly ſaith, that ſhe that confeſſes ſhe may erre, is not ſo chargeable with any fault, as they that pretend they cannot; which is quite another matter.

Section 33 To conclude, when the buſineſſe is thus laid by you, that your infallibility is not yet proved to be onelyonly pretended, and yet you have no other ground of ſaying ſo, but becauſe you ſay 'tis not, (though all his Lordſhip's arguments for ſo may Sections have driven all to that concluſion, and never an one of them is yet anſwered by you) it will be a moſt unreaſonable thing (and a ſound petitio principii againe) to affirme without any one word of proofe, that that infallibility is a reality, and ſo will not keepe Kyou from mending, whereas nothing can keepe you from mending, if this doe not; this contemning of arguments againſt you, and affirming magiſterially without any.

To the 29 Section, Chap. 17.

This opinion, ſaith he, of damning ſo many, and this cuſtome of burning ſo many, this breeding up of thoſe who know nothing elſe in any point of religion, yet to be in readineſſe to cry, To the fire with him, To hell with him. All theſe be empty words, as we have ſhewed before. As for our breeding up of men, I thinke we doe it as well as any of our neighbours doe; and by the way, muſt tell you that we doe not take children from their parents onelyonly to breed them up in our religion; we doe not offer that hard meaſure either to Turkes or Jewes, but hold it an act flatly againſt the law of nature, an impious violation of Parents right, which ought to be held ſacred; and laſtly, away of propagation of religions wholy violent and Ʋn-Chriſtian, ſo farre are we from propagating our religion by force; and if all others with whom we have to doe, had beene of that mind, it had beene better with them; for God hath not bleſſed that way, foraſmuch as by ſad experience p. 114we have found, that none have proved greater ſcourges to their King and Country, then ſuch as have had that ſort of breeding given them, and contrary to their parents will, beene violently ſeduced in their youth; and this is no ſecret, but knowne to all the three Kingdomes to their coſt. But enough of this, for it is a diſtaſtfull buſineſſe.

C. 17. Anſw. to C. 17.

Section 1 To his Lordſhip's 29 paragraph you have no returne, but that theſe are empty words as you have formerly ſhewed (and I feare we have ſhewed they are not, but ſhould be very glad to be miſtaken, and can truly ſay, that I wiſh vehemently that your judgment were right in this matter) But upon occaſion of his Lordſhip's mention of [your breeding up thoſe that know nothing elſe in religion, To cry to the fire, to hell with him] you are pleaſed to take occaſion of ſome liberty, in ſhewing what good breeding you beſtow upon men in your Church, and ſo divert to a complaint againſt thoſe that take children from their parents, &c. and are ſomewhat paſſionate and tragicall on that ſubject; but this being nothing to his Lordſhip's words or argument, I deſire to ſee that better anſwered by you, before I will enter any new combat about ſo extrinſecall an impertinency. And ſo enough of this alſo, for what ever 'tis, 'tis nothing to the matter of preſent handling.