Apology for Non-Conformists, Text (2 of 3)

Apology for Non-Conformists · Text (2 of 3)

p. 48Queſt. Do thoſe do well that reproach, revile, or ſlight Miniſters, for their Caſſocks, or Girdles? &c.

Anſw. They do not do well; no more do they that reproach and revile Miniſters for not wearing of them. There hath been too much of this both on the Conformiſts and Nonconformiſts ſide; but 'tis to the commendation of neither. If we would forbear claſhing one againſt another, live as Friends, as Brethren, and up to our profeſſion, we ſhould be men ſet by, and Reverenced by the People. What a ſhame is it that there ſhould be ſo many ſeveral Religious Orders in p. 49the Romiſh Church, who have their ſeveral Habits, ceremonious Obſervations, and yet honour one another, and are all honoured by the People.

Queſt. Yet if the Nonconformiſt would come into the Church, and nor ſtand out as they do, out of Order and Rank, would not the Church be terrible like an Army with Banners?

Anſw. The Way to have all conform, I humbly conceive, is for the Biſhops to follow the example of the Great Council Jeruſalem, to lay upon the Necks of their Diſciples, whether Paſtors or People, no other Burden but neceſſiry things, Acts 15. Add to this, At this day there is no perfect Uniformity amongſt our Brethren that Conform: For ſome read all the Prayers, ſome not; ſome pray before Sermon, ſome onelyonly bid Prayer; ſome pray after Sermon, ſome not; ſome read Prayers on the holy days, ſome not; ſome read Prayers on Wedneſdays and Frydays, ſome not; ſome preach twice a day, ſome but once; ſome Catechiſe in the afternoon, ſome not; ſome preach upon the 30th of January and the 29th of May, ſome, yea the moſt, not; ſome bow towards the Communion-Table, moſt not; ſome call it an Altar, moſt the Communion-Table; ſome bow at the name of Jeſus, ſome not; ſome are for their Doctrine Calviniſts, ſome Arminians; ſome are Latitudinarians, ſome Altitudinarians; ſome moderate Conformiſts for p. 50Canonical Conformity; ſome High Conformiſt… and for Praeter-canonical Conformity; ſome are Rigidiſſimos, that have ſhort, narrow, little ſoul… and of the childrens threes; others have large true Chriſtian breaſts, of a capacious and of a comprehenſive Charity: ſome are for Union Coalition, and Accommodation, though with ſome Condeſcention or yeelding on their part, (if his Majeſty and Parliament think fit) other think Moderation marts all: Some account the Calvinian-Conformiſts, Puritan-Conformiſts, and could be pleaſed more of them were caſt out o… the Church; others think the Nonconforming-Puritans (ſuch is their Life and Doctrine) may (permiſſu Superiorum) well be received again into the boſom of the Church.

Queſt. If the Nonconforming-Miniſters forbear to come into the Church and conform ou… of Conſcience, and not out of Policy, what reaſon can be given why divers of them when they were offered preferments in the Church at hi… Majeſties firſt coming into the Land, ſtood blowing upon them ſo long, before they would either take or leave them? D. p. 111.

Anſw. In the Judgment of Charity we may judge the true reaſon was, they expected then ſome Alteration and Reformation both in Worſhip and Government; and they waited to ſet whether there would be ſuch a Reformation as their Conſciences could reſt ſatisfied withal: if p. 51ſo, they reſolved to accept thoſe Dignities; but when they perceived things were to be ſetled in ſtatu quo, in the condition they are now, they waved thoſe places and preferments. Might but Biſhop Uſhers Reduction have been admitted in the Government, and the Ceremonies removed; or but his Majeſties Declaration about Eccleſiaſtical Affairs been made a Law, they would have thankfully imbraced the offers that were then made them.

Queſt. What needs the removal of the Ceremonies be ſo much as deſired of our Governors? Are they not like thoſe of a Maſter of a Family to his Children and Servants to come into the Parlour or Hall at ſuch an hour to Prayer in the Family, and to kneel there, and he uncovered during Family-Prayers? D. p. 106, 107.

Anſw. The Nonconforming-Miniſters are very willing to come to the Church at the hours appointed by Law, and there to ſtand or kneel, and be bare or uncovered at the time of Prayers, if ſuch conformity may ſerve the turn: But divers look upon the Ceremonies injoyned in the Liturgy as of another nature than thoſe abovementioned (relating to Peace, Order and Decency only) namely, as Rites of a Myſtical or Sacramental ſignification, and therefore have been rejected together with Popery at firſt by many of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas, who yet we doubt not worſhip God decently and orderly, p. 52and in the beauty of Holineſs.

Queſt. Are the Nonconformiſts ſuch a croſs-grain'd Generation, that it is the only way to bring them to Conformity, for the Magiſtrate to forbid the uſe of the Ceremonies? D.

Anſw. I wiſh (if his Majeſty pleaſed) tryal might be made in forbidding the Croſs and Surplice, the reading the Leſſons out of the Apocrypha, and the Old Tranſlation of the Pſalms o… David?

Queſt. Do not the Nonconformiſts hold that nothing may be done in the Worſhip of God but what is in joyned by him in his Word? Deb. p. 101. edit. 1.

Anſw. They generally hold that nothing muſt be done as a part of Gods Worſhip, nor as properly a medium cultus; but they hold that the determination of meet circumſtances neceſſary in genere, is not neceſſary to be ſet down in the Word. Vid. Mr. Baxt. his diſputat. about Ch. Governm. and the Propoſals of the Presbyterians to his Majeſty.

Queſt. Do the Nonconformiſts Miniſters hold the Church of England no true Church, and the Miniſters of it, if Conformiſts, no true Miniſters? and do they diſlwade people from frequenting the Churches, and hearing their Miniſters ſetled in them?

Anſw. The Presbyterians have juſtified the calling of Miniſters in the Church of England, in p. 53their Jus Divinum Miniſterii Anglicani; they …efuſe not to communicate with the Publick Aſſemblies; divers that ſometimes keep private Meetings for Religious Exerciſes, they and their Auditors go to Church alſo, and joyn therein in praing and hearing, and receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.

Queſt. Do the Nonconformiſts-Miniſters hold all ſuperiority of one Presbyter above another, Antichriſtian?

Anſw. As to the Biſhops of the Church of England, inveſted with all that Power which they have, and uſually exerciſe in the Church of England, without the joynt-advice and conſent of the Presbytery, we look upon them not as Jure Divino ſtrictly, but as his Majeſties Deputies and Commiſſioners in Eccleſiaſticall Affairs; and, ſince his Majeſty is pleaſed to make them Lords, can give them their Title, and ſerve God and the Church under them.

Queſt. Is the Aſſembly in their Directory for Worſhip ſo much out in adviſing and directing Miniſters to preach in the evidence and demonſtration of the Spirit and of Power? and are thoſe Miniſters guilty of error and preſumption now-a-dayes who make this a petition in Prayer before their Sermons, that they may be enabled ſo to preach? See Deb. p. 5. edit. 1.

Anſw. The ſenſe of the Author of the Debate and divers other Interpreter? and the ſenſe in p. 54which the Aſſembly and many other pious and learned Preachers uſe this Scripture, 1 Cor 2.4 need not neceſſarily to exclude one the other. Take Biſhop Hall's Paraphraſe upon the place My ſpeech both in my private Exhortation, and i… my publicly Preachings, was not curiouſly plauſible as if I would win with words of humane Eloquent and Wit; but in plain and powerful expreſſions … God's Spirit ſpeaking in me, and working in you … me. And the pious, prudent, and learned Biſhop of Cheſter, in his Eccleſiaſtes, directing what kind of phraſe a Miniſter muſt uſe in his preaching, ſaith, it must be affectionate and cordial, … proceeding from the heart, and an experimental atquaintance with thoſe Truths which we deliver — adds, this it to ſpeak in the demonſtration of th… Spirit and of Power. Beſides, the learned D… Hammond tells us in his Comment on the New Teſtament, that divers places in the Old-Teſtament are ſaid to be fulfilled in the New b… way of Accommodation. And why may not this Scripture be uſed by Miniſters by way of Accommodation alſo? Do not the Sons of the Church pray for the Clergy of England, as for God's own Tribe, the Tribe of Levi? Beſides, if you ſeriouſly conſider the Context, you may ſee cauſe not wholly to reject the other interpretation namely that of Mr. Dixon in loc. Demonſtrativ… nibus Scriptura & ſolida Veritatis quibus Spirit… potenter ſe exerebat & operabatur in veſtris animis

p. 55Queſt. Do the Nonconforming-Miniſters preend now to pray by the Spirit, as if the Holy-Ghoſt ſhould immediatly infuſe method, matter and words whilſt they pray?

Anſw. Mr. Hollingworth, ſometime a prime Presbyterian in Lancaſhire, ſhall anſwer for them. They do not hold that they ought not to take bought before-hand what they ſhould pray, expecting that the Holy-Ghoſt ſhould immediately inſpire them with method, matter and words of Prayer; who ever ſaid, it was not they that prayed, but the Holy-Ghoſt praying in them. And yet in this duty as well as in others, the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God, which is a Spirit of Grace and Supplication: and becauſe we know not what to ask, he helpeth our infirmities; and we may be ſaid to pray in the Spirit, not onelyonly becauſe the holy Spirit doth ſtir up, warm and enlarge our affections in prayer, but be brings oft times to our remembrance the ſavory and ſuit able phraſes and paſſages of holy Writ, eſpecially the promiſes which are moſt pertinent to our purpoſe. Why ſhould any imagine that the evil ſpirit can have power to ſuggeſt evil thoughts or imaginations into us, to diſtract and hinder us when we are praying, and not the good and holy Spirit ſhould ſuggeſt good thoughts and deſires, and that too in his own language, I mean in Scripture-phraſe and expreſſions, bringing them at ſuch a time to our remembrance; Yea, the Holy-Ghost (ſaith that pious perſon) reſtrains the petulancy and extravagancy p. 56of wit, great ſwelling words of vanity, vain bablings, idle repetitions, &c. and he teaches us to pray in the words of truth and ſoberneſs. We acknowledge a diſtinction betwixt the Gift of Prayer, and the Spirit of Prayer; The one is a common gift of the Spirit, the other is a ſpecial gift or grace of the Spirit, that conſiſts in apt expreſſions, outward enlargements; this in deep impreſſions on the heart, devout affections, which are too big for expreſſions; theſe are the ſighs and groans which cannot be uttered. A Reverend and worthy Prelate of the Church of England, treating of the gift of Prayer, ſaith thus,P. 12. — If it be a fault not to ſtrive and labour after this gift, much more is it to jeer and deſpiſe it by the name of Extempore Prayer, and, praying by the Spirit; which Expreſſions, as they are frequently uſed by ſome men by way of reproach, are for the moſt part the ſign of a prophane heart, and ſuch as are altogether ſtrangers from the power and comfort of this duty.

Queſt. In caſe this expreſſion may be tolerated and admit of any favourable conſtruction, Do not they often-times uſe many light and indecent and ſometimes very clowniſh expreſſions in their Prayer, to gratifie the rudeneſs of their Auditors? Deb. p. 62. edit. 4.

Anſw. As for many of them they are not raſh to utter any thing before the Lord they are very ſerious and ſober in their expreſſions, affectionat and zealons in their utterance. There is a little p. 57Book of the Prayers of many of the chief of them; taken, I ſuppoſe, in Short-hand, without their knowledge, and publiſhed (for ought I know) without their conſent; yet I conceive with ſome grains of allowance for common and pardonable errors, might paſs with an Imprimatur. And if there be ſome who have uſed unbecoming expreſſions; Are there not to be found alſo among the Conformiſts guilty of the like Indecencies? Not to mention the Pr. of D. I. M. at Oxford, nor the Pr. of D. R. at Windſor; I hope it may be pardonable to cite that of the D. which was printed with his own knowledge; Let the Gold of our Nobility excel in Grace as they do in Honour; purifie the Silver of our Gentry from the droſs of Vice; engrave upon the Braſs of the Communalty the fear of thy holy Name. As for their affectionate way of utterance, I ſuppoſe it may be a means to move themſelves & others to ſutable affections to the duty they ate about. Vocal Prayer, where it can conveniently be uſed, is by ſome preferred before mental, becauſe 'tis a means to excite affections, and prevent diſtraction. One end of Prayer, as a very learned Author tells us, is not to move or affect God, but our ſelves, that we may be fit to receive the good things that we beg of him; and then thoſe words and phraſes, and that way of utterance or ſpeaking which is moſt affectionate and leaſt affected, which is beſt adapted to the matter of the prayer, and productive p. 58alſo of good effects in our ſelves and others, ought to be eſteemed leaſt liable to blame or exception. Is it not the part of an Oratour to change his voice and geſture, according to the variety of the ſubject or matter he is ſpeaking of? do not men begin an Oration with a low voice or tone ordinarily, and ſo riſe higher as they go further, and ordinarily are moſt intenſe and earneſt towards the Concluſion? We are directed in the Common-Prayer-Book to repeat the Confeſſion of Sins after the Miniſter with a meek, heart and humble voice: And I have heard of one, that, for his voice and confidence, was charged that he confeſſed his ſins as if he was proud of them?

Queſt. Do not ſome Nonconformiſts complain that they cannot be ſo affected in the hearing of Common-Prayer, as at other Prayers? Deb. p. 89. edit. 4.

Anſw. I have heard it bitterly complained of, that the Common Prayers which are good in themſelves, ſhould be abaſed by mean, pittifull, ſcandalous Readers, and be read in ſo ſlight and dull a manner. The Liturgy is not ordinarily, as to its effects on the generality of the Auditors, the ſame, when read by a worthy perſon, and in a grave and decent manner, as otherwiſe: yet I confeſs ſome reaſon why many men are not ſo much affected with the Common-Prayer is with the Miniſter's own Prayer, may be the frequent p. 59repetition of the ſame prayers. I ſuppoſe where a man ſtrictly tieth himſelf to a Form of Prayer (though of his own compoſing) conſtantly before or after Sermon, it is not ordinarily ſo affecting or quickning to himſelf or others, as when he doth otherwiſe. I think Prayer by forms, and conceived prayers, both lawful, and both of them have their excellencies in ſome reſpects. That by a Form, excells in ſome reſpects Conceived Prayer; in others, as I heard the Pious, Reverend and Learned Dr. Holdſworth when he was Vice-Chancellor (at the Commencement) at Cambridge determine the matter, though he concluded for the lawfulneſs and expediency of a Liturgy for Publick Worſhip; Such it the nature of man that he is ordinarily moſt excited in his affections, and his attention ſooneſt engaged and raiſed by Novelty or variety. And hear what a Reverend Perſon, no enemy to Epiſcopacy and Liturgy, ſaith of Prayer by Book; There is not that life and vigour in it to engage the affections, as when it proceeds immediately from the ſoul it ſelf, and is the natural expreſſion of thoſe particulars whereof we are moſt ſenſible. B. Ch. G. P. p. 12. Now one Reaſon being given in the Preface to the Liturgy, why ſome Ceremonies are retained, being this, becauſe they are apt to affect the dull mind of man, &c. why may not a Miniſter ſo order his Prayers before and after Sermon, &c. as to voice and phraſe, as may moſt probably affect p. 60himſelf and them that joyn in prayer with him? I do by no means approve of Romantick or Courtly expreſſions on the one hand in Prayer, nor Rude and Ruſtick expreſſions on the other. I think Scripture-phraſe is beſt, fitteſt, and of choice, therefore to be made uſe of. And to this (I think) I may ſafely ſay the generality of the Non-conformiſts do conform as much as the Conformiſts themſelves.

Queſt. How can a man joyn in a Prayer in which he is not before acquainted?

Anſw. As a man may in his judgment aſſent unto any Divine Truth delivered in a Sermon, which he never heard before; ſo may he joyn in his affections unto any holy deſire in a Prayer which he never heard before.B. C. If he who is mouth of the reſt, ſhall through impudence deliver that which he cannot approve, God does not look upon it as our Prayer, if our Deſires do not ſay Amen to it.

Queſt. Do the high Prelatiſts allow of Miniſters to pray any Prayer beſides the Common-Prayer?

Anſw. Dr. Heylyn condemns the cuſtom of praying before and after Sermon. We are told that this doth fruſtrate the end and deſign of the Liturgy, and that 'tis needleſs, &c. And that although many Orthodox men, not intending evil thereby, have in latter times taken up this faſhion, yet they are generally to be blamed, and p. 61have much to anſwer for their Nonconformity herein, if we believe the Author of a late Pamphlet, call'd the Converted Presbyterian.

Queſt. What is to be thought of Afternoon-Sermons, is not that a thing wholly ſuperfluous, and would it not be better if as the Citizens and others have reduced their Families to one Meal a day; ſo the Miniſters would their Congregations to one Sermon a day, and ſo have nothing beſides Common-Prayer and Catechiſm in the evening? Deb. p. 89. edit. 4.

Anſw. The Lord Falkland, in his Speech in Parliament, complained of ſome leading Biſhops before the Wars, that they cried up Catechiſing, to decry Preaching. Catechiſing indeed is talked of much, but by many 'tis to be feared, it is to juſtle out the Afternoon-Sermon out of doors: for we find in many Churches there is neither Preaching nor Catechiſing in the Afternoon. Of old, preaching was accounted praecipuum munus Epiſcopi, the Biſhops chief Work or Office. Biſhop Latimer was very ſmart againſt Unpreaching Prelates in his time; but of later times the Lord Falkland in his ſpeech in Parliament charged ſome of that Order that they diſcouraged and diſcountenanced Preaching; that they preached not themſelves, and diſcountenanced them that would. And not long before the Wars, I heard a Friend, a Miniſter (that had been with his Dioceſan) who ſaid, That upon his p. 62quoting of Biſhop Davenant to the Biſhop, in juſtification of ſomething he ſaid; the Biſhop replied, WHAT DO YOU TALK OF HIM, A PREACHING-COXCOMB! Biſhop Latimer, Ridley, Jewel, &c. were great Patrons of Preaching, and themſelves practis'd it Archbiſhop Grindal went ſo far as to countenance the Meetings called Prophecyings; and Biſhop Hall of late thought they might be profitable. Former Hiſtories did nor tell ſtories of any Biſhop of the Reformed Religion, that gave God thanks that he had not left one Lecture, or one afternoon-Sermon in all his Dioceſs. There was a Gentlewoman of good Quality, cited a Kingly Preacher, viz. Solomon in his Eccleſiaſtes, for preaching in the Evening as well as Morning, Eccleſ. 11.6. In the morning ſow thy Seed, and in the Evening withhold not thy hand. In the Country they account thoſe Shepheards moſt careful of their flocks, and to have uſually the beſt Sheep, who fothet twice a day. The Apoſtle Paul exhorts ro be inſtant in ſeaſon and out of ſeaſon: a Sermon in the afternoon can be but out of ſeaſon. 'Tis obſerved that the Sermons at Court before Queen Elizabeth were conſtantly in the afternoon. And I knew a Pariſh in the Country, where it was deſired by the good women, That in caſe their Miniſter would preach but once a day, it might be in the afternoon; becauſe, they ſaid, it might be a meant to keep their Husbands out of the Alehouſe. p. 63The Morning Service according to the Common Prayer-Book being ſo long, they thought a Sermon might be better ſpared in the morning than in the afternoon.

Queſt. Although preaching in the beginning of the planting the Chriſtian Religion might be neceſſary, yet is it ſo in theſe days?

Anſw. Preaching ſerves not onelyonly to inform the Underſtanding, but to excite and awaken the Affections, and to bring to remembrance what we have been taught before. Paul planted, and Apollos watered even there where the Apoſtle Paul had firſt planted. A good Stomach can digeſt two Meals a day, and why may not a Soul of a healthful conſtitution have two Meals a Week. I believe the Chriſtians in Ruſſia have never the fatter Souls for going in lean Paſtures, for two Meals, I mean two Sermons a year.

Queſt. Would it not be good Policy not to ſuffer any to preach, but onelyonly to read Common Prayer and the Homilies? Would not this be an effectual way and means to prevent Errours and Hereſies, Rents and Diviſions amongſt us? Doth not this preaching ſow many Tares in the Field of the Church?

Anſw. I have heard of ſome Preachers indeed who preach down preaching, but I take them to be never a whit the better Preachers, nor the better Chriſtians for that; I acknowledge the Homilies to contain wholſom and very profitable p. 64Doctrine, and think I ſhould ſpend my time better to heat one of them read, than to hear ſome Preachers now-a-days. But if ability to read the Book of Common Prayer and the Book of Homilies, be all the Book-Learning neceſſary for a Miniſter, 'tis to be feared that ſome Princes or Parliaments may come, before many Ages paſs who may be ſo thrifty as to be willing to ſave the needleſs expence of a million or two millions a year in Church-Maintenance; and think 20 l. per annum enough for men of ſuch Parts, Education, and Learning.

Queſt. Is not Catechiſing the younger people in the afternoon, a very profitable and a laudable practice?

Anſw. This I can ſay, I uſed It for many years together, beſides preaching uſually twice a day. 'Tis obſerved that the Proteſtants in the begining of the Reformation, got advantage over the Papiſts, by their diligence in Catechiſing; and that ſince the Papiſts by their diligence the ſame way, have got ground of us. I am not againſt the uſe of the Church-Catechiſm for Children; and do really think the Right Reverend Biſhop Nicholſon hath deſerved well for bis Expoſition of it. But I confeſs I cannot approve of the Vicar that in his Catechiſing, going about to juſtifie that Queſtion, What it thy Name? brought that Scripture for it, where 'tis recorded of our bleſſed Saviour, that he ſaid to the man poſſeſſed of p. 65the Devil, What is thy Name? and he anſwered, My Name is Legion.

But as for the knowledge, of the Catechiſm (if it may lawfully be done) I could be glad none might be married before they give an account of it.

Quest. Sith preaching is ſo neceſſary, what way of preaching is beſt? The Jingling way, or the Rational Philoſophical way, or the Rational Scripture way, with Reaſons out of Scripture, and Teſtimonies from Scripture?

Anſw. I dare not commend the firſt way, which yet I ſuppoſe was more practis'd in former times than of late: Such as that was of Dr. Pl. on that place of the Canticles, My Bed is green; Typical, My; Topical, Bed; Tropical, green: Typical, Topical, Tropical; My Bed is green. Such as was that of the Doctor and Dignitary at Oxford about the loſt Groat; ſuch as was the mode of the Wits about thirty years ago; and ſuch as was well expreſſed and expoſed ſince by a Citizen or Countryman, who being asked how he liked the Sermon, and how the Miniſter preached? Anſwered, He could not ſay much of it, but it ran or ſounded thus, as if he had ſaid,

A Pudding, a Pie;

A Pudding-Pie:

A Pudding for thee,

A Pie, for me;

p. 66A Pudding-Pie

For me and thee.

Nor do I look on him is one of the fineſt Preachers, that lately exhorted his Hearers to put on the Sattin of Sincerity, the Purple of Purity, and the Silk of Simplicity.

As for the Rational way, the mode of ſome great Doctors of theſe days, if they would intermix more of Scripture-Reaſon, or Scripture-Teſtimonies, it might be very profitable for learned Auditories.

As for the way by Doctrine, Reaſon, and Uſe, by Teſtimonies out of the holy Scriptures, more than Citations out of the Ancient Fathers, or by Reaſons deduced from Philoſophy, (ſuch as I apprehend was the preaching of Mr. Perkins, Mr. Hilderſham, old Mr. Dod, Archbiſhop Uſher, Biſhop Sanderſon, Biſhop Reynolds, and many others in our days) I think it moſt edifying to ordinary Auditors: And this I conceive to be that which the Aſſembly mean in their Directory for preaching, and others in their Prayers before Sermon, by preaching in the evidence and demonſtration of the Spirit and of Power. Biſhop Hall in his Paraphraſe, and the Biſhop of Cheſter in his Eccleſi…ſtes, as I conceive, are both of this Judgment. Scripture-Reaſons, and Scripture-words and phraſes, do beſt of all become a Miniſter of the Word. Doctrina Evangelii cum ſit Divina p. 67ac tota ſpiritualis Divinis etiam verbis explicanda, & Divinis rationibus confirmanda eſt, ut proportio ſervetur inter res & verba item que argumenta qua… non temerè in rebus Theologicis uſurpandae ſunt …manae phraſes, nec rationes Philoſophicae niſi pror… evidentes ſint facile adhibendae. Vorſtius on the ſecond Chapter of the firſt Epiſtle to the Corinthians.

Queſt. Are not all private Meetings for exerciſe of Religion, illegal and ſchiſmatical, though not in oppoſition unto the Publique Aſſemblies?

Anſw. Till of late, a Conventicle, I have heard, was a Meeting under pretence of Religi…, where people met to pray and preach againſt the Government of the Church and State. The Biſhop, by the Canons, hath power to give leave for the keeping of a private Faſt: And I know a Biſhop that did ſo, before the Act againſt Conventicles was made.

Queſt. Is it impoſſible that they ſhould be either good Chriſtians or good Subjects, who keep and frequent private Meetings, commonly called Conventicles?

Anſw. There are amongſt the Papiſts (whom may ſuppoſe the Author of the Debate thinks good Chriſtians and good Subjects) who aſſemble themſelves for Religious Exerciſes. And there were a Congregation of Proteſtants in the Reign of Queen Marry, which yet were good p. 68Chriſtians and good Subjects; and which I would not brand with the name of a Conventicle, no more than the Author of the Debate would the Meetings of Dr. Gunning, Dr. Hyde, and other, for the Common Prayer in the late time; although if Conventicles be againſt the Common Law, that was the ſame then and now. Judicious Mr. Hales in his Tract of Schiſm, hath more Charity for Diſſenten:P. 2. When either falſe and uncertain Concluſions are obtruded for Truth, and Acts either unlawful, or miniſtring juſt ſcruple, are required of us to be performed; in theſe Caſes, (ſaith he) Co… ſent were Conſpiracy; and of open Conteſtation is … Faction or Schiſm, but due Chriſtian Animoſity.

Queſt Whether do the Nonconformist-Mitiſters look after Viſions and Revelations?

Anſw. 'Tis that which the Papiſts and Semi… P…piſts, the Quakers, pretend unto; but theſe I conceive may rather be ranked amongſt the Conformiſts, than the Nonconformiſts, by the like reaſon that Seekers and Anabaptiſts are numbre a nongſt Nonconformiſts. And here let me inſer… a ſhort ſtory:

In the late times, One (now a great Son of th… Church) travelling with two (now Nonconforming) Miniſters; he being the Senior Man and Miniſter was deſired to pray with them and for them, before they went to Bed: this he did; and in his Prayed, p. 69That God would ſend them Godly Dreams that night. On occaſion whereof, one of the Miniſters ſaid to the other, He did not like this over-Godlineſs; he that would over-godly it, would undergodly it.

If any Nonconforming-Miniſters have been ſuperſtitiouſly obſervers of Dreams, it may be queried whether the late Little Great Archbiſhop of Canterbury was not guilty of the ſame fault alſo.

Queſt. Do the Nonconformiſts perſwade or aſſure themſelves of Gods favour onelyonly or chiefly from a voice within them, which they ſay is the holy Spirit, telling them that they are Jedidiah's, beloved of God? And do they not look upon what Graces the holy Spirit hath wrought in them, as evidences of his Love?

Anſw. We affirm that the Works or fruits of the Holy Ghoſt in us, which upon ſearch we find in our own Souls, are our Evidences of Gods love to us. If we once find in our ſelves thoſe gracious Qualifications to which the Promiſes of Pardon, Peace, and Comfort are made in the holy Scripture; this is every whit as ſure as if an Angel from Heaven ſhould tell us with an audible Voice, Be of good chear, your ſins are forgiven you; Peace be to you, you are the Favourites of Heaven. The Spirit of God is firſt a ſanctifying, and then a ſealing Spirit; firſt he converts us, and then he comforts us.

p. 70Queſt. Do not Nonconfomiſts vaunt too much of their Aſſurances, Comforts, Experiences? And may not theſe prove ſtrange fancies in concluſion?

Anſw. The holy Prophet David, and the bleſſed Apoſtle Paul, both cite their own Experiences, and draw comfor from them. He delivered me from the mouth of the Lion, 1 Sam. 17.37.1 Sam 17:37and from the paw of the Bear, and he will deliver me from this uncircumciſed Philiſtine: So the ore. And he hath delivered, he doth deliver; in whom I truſt alſo that he will yet deliver. So the other.

Queſt. Do theſe Nonconforming-Miniſters cheat the People, by making them believe that they preach experimentally what they have heard and ſeen, and experimented themſelves. Deb… p. 35, 37. Edit. 4.

Anſw. I have heard that it was the Saying of a Learned Man, no Nonconformiſt, That the way to be a good Preacher, was to get a good Heart. Doubtleſs that which comes from the Heart, is moſt likely to go to the Heart. He that hath taſted the ſweetneſs of Honey and Sugar, can better ſpeak of it, knows better by his experience the ſweetneſs of Honey and Sugar, than he that hath onelyonly heard and read of it in a Book. Holy David, a King and a Prophet, called to others to hearken, and he would tell them what God had do… for his Soul. He that hath been perſwaded and p. 71converted himſelf, is likelieſt to perſwade and convert others.

'Tis ſtoried of Junius, That before his Converſion, meeting once with a Country-man as he was in a Journey, and falling into diſcourſe with him about divers points of Religion, he obſerved the plain fellow to talk ſo experimentally, with ſo much heartineſs and affection, as made him firſt begin to think ſure there was ſomething more in thoſe Truths, than his notional humane Learning had yet diſcovered; which occaſioned his more ſerious enquiry into them, and afterwards his Converſion.

Queſt. Is it proper to alledge the converſion of Souls from the Error of their Ways, as a Seal to our Miniſtry?

Anſw. The Apoſtle St. Paul, when his Miniſtry was queſtioned and diſgraced, appealed unto this, 2 Cor. 3.2. Ye are our Epiſtle, (viz. of commendation to or from the Church of Corinth) written in our hearts, known and read of all men. This Epiſtle was the Apoſtles Evidence and Seal that he was a true Miniſter of the Lord Jeſus.

But this I muſt have leave to ſay, that 'tis no evidence of a real converſion; to rail at Biſhops, or the Common Prayer; nor on the other ſide, at Nonconformiſts, as Schiſmaticks, Sectaries, Rogues, &c. I know that Religion is another thing, and teacheth other things, better things than theſe. And I believe there are ſerious, ſober, p. 72ſolid, godly perſons, excellent Chriſtians, placable, Sons of Peace, of both Perſwaſions; that pray to God, and would be ready to joyn in Petition to Authority, for ſome expedient for a Reconciliation: And ſuch a ſpirit as this, I look on as a Goſpel-ſpirit, and well-becoming Preachers and Profeſſors of the Goſpel of Reconciliation: and if there be any of either ſide, that have not attained to this or the like ſpirit, I look on them as of a lower form of Godlineſs; and on endeavours and actings contrary to this way of Peace, to be no part of their Godlineſs, or any evidence of their Converſion; though I will not ſay, they are therefore ungodly or unconverted.

Queſt. Why do not Nonconformiſts preach up Peace and Unity, and Obedience to Superiours?

Anſw. You tell us that the Nonconformiſts hold it their duty to declare the whole Counſel of God; and they tell us that 'tis their duty to pray for Magiſtrates, and to obey their lawful Commands for Conſcience-ſake; and therefore 'tis but Charity to judge they will not be wanting in what they are convinced of, is their Duty.

If there be any that ſow the Seeds or Tares of Diviſion and Diſobedience, whether in private Meetings, or publick Congregations; I ſay concerning them, O my Soul, come not thou into their p. 73ſecrets, unto their Aſſemblies be not thou united: yet there are, I fear, who cry peace, peace, when there is no peace, but war in their hearts; all the Peace and Unity they intend and endeavour after, is but to bow all to their own Bent, Ways, Opinions, and Sentiments; and to break all thoſe whom they cannot bend. Some there are, who with much pretended Zeal, cry, and that aloud, for obedience to Magiſtrates and Laws, and act more out of policy and ſelf-intereſts, than Conſcience; making theſe but as ſtalking-horſes, the better to come near, and to ſhoot at their own Game; thus taking vengeance on their own ſuppoſed Enemies, whilſt they ſeem to do God and his Vice-gerent ſervice: Hereby breaking the whole Law of God, pretending the obſervation of the fifth Commandment; and that fundamental Law of our Peace and happineſs, the Act of Indempnity, whilſt they pretend Zeal to the Act of Uniformity: Elſe what's the reaſon that they ſeldom or never preach but upon that ſubject, when as it ſufficeth by the Canons to treat of it four times a year. For my own part, I acknowledge and profeſs 'tis a duty to preach obedience to God and his Vice-gerent, both to be obedient our ſelve, and to teach others alſo this duty by Precept and Example: Yet I muſt confeſſ, I do not think they do all things decently and in order, who always preach up the Duty of the people at Court, not they that preach the duty of Rulers in the Country.

p. 74Queſt. But are there not Nonconforming-Miniſters, who were formerly great Friends to the Army, and Countenancers and Encouragers of them in their illegal, unjuſt, and horrid Proceedings againſt King and Parliament?

Anſw. I know none of the whole Tribe of the Presbyterians that are ſo. I have heard of one Mr. Martin lately impriſoned for a Conventicle at Warwick, that loſt his Arm in his Majeſties ſervice; and I have heard of one that marched before the Souldiers, when they went to fight againſt his Majeſty at Worceſter, that hath been a zealous Conformiſt ſince: Not do I know that he and many others ever ſaw day, till the Royal Sun aroſe in our Horizon, to ſcatter the Clouds that hung over their eyes. The horrid murther of his late Majeſty, as it was abhorred and declared againſt by the Presbyterian Miniſters, and others, in City and Country, from Pulpit and Preſs; ſo it was (that I know of) never undertaken to be juſtified by any Miniſter in print, but by J. G. that great Goliah and Champion of the Arminians. And the Presbyterians, yea, thoſe who were Commiſſioners for the View of the Liturgy, Declare in one of the Papers to his Majeſty, That till the Covenant was decried as an Almanack out of date, and its Obligation taken to be null, that odious Fact could never have been perpetrated againſt your Royal Father, nor your Majeſty ſo long expulſed from your Dominions.

p. 75Queſt. Do the Nonconforming-Miniſters call thoſe Moral Preachers who preach obedience to the Moral Law, and the neceſſity of good Works?

Anſw. He that rightly divides the Word of Truth, muſt preach Law and Goſpel both; Moral as well as Evangelical Duties; yet 'tis beſt to preach the Law as it was firſt delivered in the hands of a Mediator. Blame them not if they preach frequently the Goſpel, and the great love of Chriſt to ſenſible Sinners, becauſe the love of Chriſt conſtrains us to love him again; 'tis the Loadſtone of Love: Nothing, they ſay, is more eaſie, than to love him that loves us; and the Apoſtle John tells us, That we love God, becauſe he firſt loved us. But 'tis not very long ſince Puritan Preachers, as they were nick-named, were charged to preach nothing but Hell and Damnation.

Queſt. Do Nonconforming-Miniſters uſe to preach Comfort to ungodly Sinners, reſolving ſtill to live ungodly?

Anſw. No, by no means: The Presbyterians and others uſed to declare againſt Antinomianiſm, and to preach Repentance towards God, as well as Faith in our Lord Jeſus Chriſt; to him that was ſenſible of ſin, and weary of it, and that mourned for it, they were willing to preach glad Tydings of Remiſſion, and Reconciliation: They were and are Enemies both to preſumption p. 76and deſperation, and ſeek to ſave Souls from periſhing either way: They are ordinarily firſt Beanerges's then Barnabas's; and ſeek firſt and moſt to waſh the inſide of the Platter, than the outſide; firſt they aim to cleanſe the Heart, then the Hands: They preſs men firſt to ſeek God in prayer with their whole heart for pardon and grace, and then direct them how to pray (whether with or without a Book in private) as ſhall be moſt expedient for them; they deny (thoſe that I converſe withal) that they diſſivade any from the uſe of the Liturgy or Common Prayer. This indeed is a Maxime with them in Religion, Quod cor non facit non fit; and that the devotion of the Soul, is the ſoul of Devotion.

Queſt. In caſe a perſon be truly troubled in Conſcience for his ſin, to which is he to be ſent for Comfort? To the Law, or to the Goſpel; to his own Obedience or Good Works, or to the Obedience of Chriſt?

Anſw. The ordinary method of Cure, is firſt to ſearch the Wound to the bottom, and then to apply healing Remedies; firſt to pour in Wine, and then Oyl. Our Phyſitians uſe firſt to purge or vomit their Patients, and then to give Cordials: So ſpiritual Phyſitians, till the Patient be truly and rightly ſenſible of his ſins, they ſend him to the Law, for by the Law comes the knowledge of ſin, the horrid nature and demerit of it; but then for Comfort, they ſend him to p. 77the Goſpel, to this ſoveraign Balſom; yea, they pour on them the Oyl of Gladneſs, upon whom they perceive has been the Spirit of Heavineſs: They ſay not, Phyſitian heal thy ſelf; but rather ſend them to the Great Phyſitian, by whoſe ſtripes we and they are healed: We dare not truſt in our own Righteouſneſs, but in the Lord our Righteouſneſs.

Queſt. Do not Nonconformiſts, as they deſire liberty from the Impoſitions of Men in the Worſhip of God, ſo preach up liberty from the Commandments of God in the Courſe of their Lives? Or at leaſt do they not lift up their Voice like a Trumpet, when they publiſh the Goſpel; but onelyonly ſpeak in a ſmall and ſtill Voice, when they treat of Obedience to the moral Law?

Anſw. 'Tis an unjuſt Calumny caſt on the Proteſtants by the Papiſts, That they are Solifidians, and againſt good Works: And 'tis an uncharitable cenſure of the Nonconformiſts by the Author of the Debate, that they do not preach obedience to the Moral Law, as well as Faith in Chriſt; and the Duties of the ſecond Table of the Law, as well as of the firſt. Whoever reads the Aſſemblies Confeſſion of Faith, their Larger and Shorter Catechiſm, M. Dod on the Commandments, Mr. Anth… Burgeſs his Vindiciae Legis, & may ſee cl… that the Nonconformiſts are not Lib…es, …gh they deſire ſome Liberty) and that thou … pray to be delivered p. 78and freed from humane ceremonial Laws, (as God has freed them from the Ceremonial Law of his own making) yet they are not Antinomians; they commend, and in Gods name require, Obedience, as well as Faith; Doing, as well as Believing; they commend Moral Honeſty, but prefer Piety: We deny him to be a truly godly man, that is not a good honeſt man; we deny him to be righteous before God, that endeavours not to approve himſelf righteous, in his dealings with men. We would not by any means break the two Tables, by daſhing them one againſt the other; and yet we prefer the Goſpel before the Law, Chriſt to Moſes, the ſecond Covenant to the firſt, that of Grace to that of Works.

Queſt. Is not Obedience then to the Moral Law, the Condition of our Juſtification? See Debate, p. 13.

Anſw. No: 'Tis not the Condition and Qualification of the Covenant, ſo properly, D. M.as 'tis of thoſe Perſons that enter into the Covenant. Faith juſtifieth the Perſon before God, and Obedience juſtifieth the Faith before men. Obedience (ſaith a Reverend Author) muſt be in the ſame Subject with Faith, but it hath not a Voice in the ſame Court. We do not cry down mans Obedience, when we cry up the Obedience of Chriſt, as the matter of our Juſtification, and the Imputation of it, as the form of our Juſtification: We dare not appear before p. 79God in our own filthy Garments and menſtruous Cloaths: We expect a Bleſſing from our Heavenly Father, when we are arrayed with the Robes of our Elder Brother Jeſus Chriſt his Righteouſneſs, which ſends up a ſweet ſmell in Gods Noſtrils.

Queſt. Is Faith, or believing in Chriſt, a coming to Chriſt, or a relying on Chriſt for the pardon of our ſin? See Debate, p. 43.

Anſw. Yes: John 7.37, 38. there coming to Chriſt, and believing, are all one: And to what end Sinners are called to come to Chriſt, we my learn from our bleſſed Saviour, Mat. 11.28. namely, That they may find reſt. I believe in God, (ſaith Biſhop Nicholſon in his excellent Expoſition of the Church-Catechiſm) as if I ſaid, I put my whole trust, hope, and confidence in him, I …ely upon him: And ſo may Faith in Chriſt, I …hink be very well deſcribed, to be a relying on Chriſt for the pardon of our ſins, and all good …hings. If my memory fail not, I have often …eard that Renowned Profeſſor, Dr. Samuel Ward, deliver it for good Doctrine in the Chair, That Faith was Recumbentia in Christum Media…re, &c. a Recumbency on Christ for the pardon of …ins.. One Mr. Down, that wrote too againſt Separation, defineth Faith to be a reſt of the Will up…n Chriſt and his merits, for Juſtification, and conſequently Salvation. And the ſame Author ob…erves that the Hebrew words foreign and foreign p. 80all words equipollent in the old Teſtament; and what is meant by them in the Old Teſtament, is expreſſed in the New by Believing: To inſtance in one, Trust in the Lord with thy whole heart, ſaith the Old Teſtament, Prov. 3.5. If thou believeſt with thy whole heart, or with all thy heart, ſaith the New, Act. 8.37. We may define Faith thus: It it a gracious habit infuſed into the Heart by the Spirit of God, whereby the Soul reſts or rolls it ſelf upon Chriſt for all things appertaining to Life and Godlineſs, for Gods Glory and its own Salvation.

Quest. Who are the greateſt Enemies to the Church of England, and to Religion it ſelf, thoſe who bring in new and ſtrange Doctrines, or thoſe that diſſent onelyonly from her as to the Ceremonies?

Anſw. Thoſe that differ in Subſtantials … Religion, are to be thought more to differ, th… thoſe that differ onelyonly in Circumſtantials; and thoſe ought to be reputed the greateſt Nonconformiſts, who do not conform to the Doctrine… the Church of England, ſet forth in her Articles Homilies and Liturgy.

Quest. Who are they?

Anſw. Even many that have been conformable enough as to Ceremonies; their Names an… Tenets you may find in a Book entitled Laude… ſium foreign, and in another called La… denſium foreign: Who they were th… maintained theſe Doctrines, and their Doctrin… p. 81in ſome meaſure alſo, you may find in Mr. Ruſhworth's Collections, and others, who have written the Hiſtory of the Times immediately preceding the late Wars. I ſhall refer you to one, and that is Dr. Fuller in his Church-Hiſtory, who relates, that it was complained of to the Sub-committees for Religion in Parliament, (of which Sub-committee the Biſhop of Lincoln, the Biſhop of Armagh, the Biſhop of Durham, the Biſhop of Exeter, Dr. Sam. Ward, Dr. Hacket, Dr. Holdſworth, and others, were Members) that all the Tenets of the Councel of Trent (abating only ſuch points of State-Policy againſt the King's Supremacy, as were made Treaſon by the Statute) Good works Co-cauſes with Faith in Juſtification, private Coufeſſion by particular ennumeration of ſins, needful neceſſitate medii to Salvation; that the Oblation (or, as others, the Conſumption of the Elements in the Lords Supper) holdeth the nature of a true Sacrifice, Prayers for the Dead; lawfulneſs of Monaſtical Vows, the groſs ſubſtance of Arminianiſm, and ſome dangerous points of Socinianiſm had been preached or printed by ſome amongſt us.

Queſt. If it ſhould be proved true, that the high Conformiſts ſhould warp ſomwhat from the Doctrine of the Church of England; yet have they not all, and alwayes been conſtant and firm to the Government to King and Parliament, and great admirers of what their Superiors do and ſay?

p. 82Anſw. Dr. Heylyn tells us that he cannot reckon the death of King Edward the ſixth, for an infelicity of the Church of England, for being (as he ſaith) ill principled in himſelf, and eaſily enclin'd to imbrace ſuch counſels as were offered to him, it is not to be thought but that the reſt of the Biſhopricks, before ſufficiently impoveriſhed muſt have followed Durham; and the poor Church left as deſtitute of Lands and Ornaments at when ſhe came into the world in her natural nakedneſs. The above-named Dr. Heylyn, in his Hiſtory of the Reformation, chargeth the Grandees at Court and in the Parliament of thoſe times, with ſuch vices and crimes, as our Adverſaries may make uſe of to blemiſh our Reformation. All which, with ſome other conſiderations, may give occaſion to ſome to think, that what the Devil ſaid falſly and maliciouſly againſt Job, may, a little altered, be too truly, and without breach of charity, ſaid of ſome high blades; Do they fear and honour the King and Parliament for nought? Have they not made a hedge about them, and about their houſe, and about all that they have on every ſide, and their Subſtance is encreaſed in the Laud? But let but King and Parliament put forth their hand now, and touch all they have, and they would (if not for fear of puniſhment) curſe them to their face.

Queſt. Is there any other abſolute promiſe beſides that of ſending Chriſt into the World?

Anſw. Yes, many; As that Gen. 9.9. not to p. 83drown the World any more. That of calling of the Gentiles, Gen. 49.10. The promiſe of the Converſion of the Jews, as is generally thought, Rom. 11. The promiſe of giving Chriſt the Heathen for his inheritance, and the uttermoſt parts of the earth for his poſſeſſion, Pſal. 2. And that Iſa. 53. He ſhall ſee his Seed, he ſhall prolong his days, and the pleaſure of the Lord ſhall proſper in his hands: That Chriſt ſhall have a Seed to ſerve him; that Chriſt ſhall certainly and infallibly ſave ſome; and the Lord knows who are his: That he hath not ſhed his Blood in vain, like water ſpilt on the ground; that this glorious Head of the Church, ſhall certainly have a Body in ſome meaſure anſwerable and ſuitable to the Head, &c. The promiſe of Firſt Grace is thought to be abſolute, I will take away your heart of Stone, and give you a heart of Fleſh. 'Tis confeſs'd, we are bid to convert and turn, and to come to Chriſt, and to make our ſelves new hearts; and yet 'tis as true, that we cannot do any of theſe things of our ſelves, without Divine Aſſiſtance, and ſpecial Grace: But this for out Comfort, That which is the matter of Duty in one place of Scripture, is the matter of a Promiſe in another: And again, That Goſpel-Commands are not onelyonly ſignifications of out Duty, but Conveyances of ſtrength to do our Duty.

Queſt. Is not Mr. W. B. abſurd in comparing Gods people to Plate?

p. 84Anſw. I anſwer, There is Scripture-ground enough to juſtifie the calling of Gods people his Plate: for in Scripture they are called Gods Jewels, or his peculiar Treaſure, Pſal. 3.17. And obdurate wicked men are compared to Reprobate Silver, Jer. 6.30.

Quest. May we not ſay, That we come to the Promiſes by Chriſt?

Anſw. In him are all the Promiſes Yea, and in him Amen, 2 Cor.1.20. As a woman hath a right to her Joynture, by firſt taking the man to her wedded Husband; ſo Chriſtians have a right to the Promiſes, and all good things, by taking Chriſt firſt for their Lord and Husband.

Quest. Is fear the chief and principal motive of a Chriſtian to Duty and Obedience, I mean the fear of puniſhment?

Anſw. No: The chief and beſt Principle is Love; I look on them as of a lower form in Religion, who onelyonly ſerve God for fear of Hell: Although this fear is uſeful, yet 'tis not the principal motive to obidience in Gods Children. And this was the Divinity of former time. I do not hold it unlawful to ſerve God for fear of puniſhment, nor hopes of Reward; yet this I ſay, That fear alone ſpeaks a man a Servant, and love ſpeaks a min a Son: And thoſe are the beſt Servants to Vertue, who ſerve virtutis amore, for the love of Vertue. A man may hate the good he doth, and love the evil which he doth not do. p. 85If then a man do that which is commanded meerly or chiefly for fear of Hell, is be neceſſarily one of Gods beſt Servants? I think not; becauſe he may at the ſame time hate the good he doth, and love the evil he abſtains from. As for working with an eye to the Reward intuitu mercedis, 'tis juſtifiable and commendable; 'tis that which Moſes did, Heb. 11.26 and which our bleſſed Saviour did; and it ſufficeth the Servant to be as his Maſter; Chriſtians to be Followers and Imitators of Chriſt their Lord and Maſter.

Quest. Are good Works neceſſary to our Juſtification? Debate, p. 13.

Anſw. The Church of England in her 11th Article, teaches her Children thus: We are righteous before God, onelyonly for the merit of the Lord our Saviour Jeſus Chriſt by Faith, and not for our own Works or Deſervings: Wherefore that we are juſtified by Faith onelyonly, is moſt wholſom Doctrine, and very full of Comfort, &c. And in her Book of Homilies, Tom. 1. pag. 17. Edit. 1623. thus: Juſtification is not the Office of man, but God: or man cannot make himſelf righteous by his own Works, neither in part nor in whole; for that were the greateſt arrogance and preſumption of Man, that Antichriſt could ſet up againſt God.

Queſt. Hath the Doctrine of the Imputation of Chriſts Righteouſneſs for our Juſtification, been the Doctrine of our Church, and the prime Doctors of it?

p. 86Anſw. The Papiſts indeed call it with a jeer, Putative Righteouſneſs. And 'tis ſtoried of a Popiſh Biſhop, lighting accidentally on that place, Rom. 4.6. Even as David alſo deſcribeth the bleſſedneſs of the man unto whom God imputeth Righteouſneſs without Works, &c. threw away the Book in great diſpleaſure, and ſaid, O Paule! an tu quoque Lutheranùs factus es? O Paul art thou alſo become a Lutheran? 'Tis obſerved by … Conforming Miniſter, that the Apoſtle Paul mentions this grace of Imputed Righteouſneſs ten times in the 4th chapter to the Romans; and Biſhop Andrews in his moſt excellent Sermon on that Scripture, Jehova Juſtitia noſtra, His na… ſhall be called, The Lord our Righteouſneſs; and B… Downham, in his Treatiſe of Juſtification, ſtrongly aſſerts it: And the Doctors of the Chair for … long time, have taught the ſame Doctrine. So that now I ſhould think that Doctor, though in the Chair, to be beſides the Cuſhion, that teaches otherwiſe.

Queſt. Is the difference betwixt the Old and New Covenant this, that the Old Covenant made with the Jews propounds temporal rewards, and the Goſpel propounds eternal? and hath this been the Doctrine of the Church of England, and of the prime Doctors ſince the Reformation? Deb. p. 26.

Anſw. The 7th Article of the Church of England ſaith thus; The Old Teſtament is not contrary p. 87to the New. Both in the Old and New Teſtament everlaſting life is offered to mankind by Chriſt; who is the only Mediatour between God and man; wherefore they are not to be heard which ſay, that the old Fathers did look only for tranſitory promiſes:

Queſt. Do not Nonconformiſts abuſe the people in their preaching, by preaching in the Apoſtolical language, That which we have ſeen and heard, declare we unto you?

Anſw. I think the Prophet David doth not abuſe himſelf and others, when he ſaith, O taste and ſee that the Lord is gracious; Nor the Apoſtle Paul the Epheſians, when he tells them that Jeſus Chriſt came and preached peace to them that were near, and to them that were afar off; Nor the Galatians, when he ſaith, Jeſus Chriſt was evidently ſet forth, crucified amongst them: Neither doth Job juggle, or caſt a miſt before his own and others eyes, when he ſaith, with theſe eyes he ſhall ſee his Redeemer; although we take the interpretation of Mercer on the place, of his Recovery here. What though the Apoſtles ſaw our Saviour in the fleſh, heard his Sermons, and converſed daily with him; may not Chriſtians now-a-dayes ſee him with an eye of Faith in his Word and Sacrament? and hear him when he ſpeaks to us in the Writings of the Apoſtles, as it were from Heaven, and by the mouthes of his Miniſters upon Earth? Muſt no paſſage or phraſe of Scripture be uſed but in its firſt ſignification? p. 88ſure we are that many places of the Old Teſtament are uſed in the New, chiefly or only by way of accommodation.

Queſt. Do the Nonconforming-Miniſters amuſe and abuſe the people when they ſpeak of Spiritual deſertions?

Anſw. Who ſo pleaſe to read Mr. Perkins his Caſes of Conſcience, Mr. Capel on Temptations; and Dr. Sibbs his Souls Conflict; although they never ſaw Dr. Goodwyn, may ſee a Child of Light walking in Darkneſs; And in ſuch a caſe I would not ſend for, as Saul did, one to play upon at Inſtrument; Nor, with a Conformiſt Miniſter, that I knew, when his Daughter was in trouble of mind for her ſins, counſel her to play at Cards; Or with another, how learned ſoever they be, ſend them to a Theatre; but either to ſome able Miniſter, or to Prayer & the Promiſes, adviſing them to put them in ſuit in the Court of Heaven; for 'tis God only that kills and makes alive, he wounds and he heals: In his preſence is life; and his withdrawing or deſerting of the ſoul, though for a time only, is as the ſhadow of death. If our bleſſed Lord on the Croſs cryed out, My God, my God, why hast thou forſaken me? what ſo great wonder, if a Chriſtian under the Croſs, oft-times complains, Why hideſt thou thy face, and I am troubled? Is the Servant above the Maſter? If theſe things be done in the green tree, what ſhad be done in the dry?

p. 89Queſt. Are the Nonconformiſts Time-ſervers? Deb. p. 65.

Anſw. If ſo, why do they not ſerve the Times now, and themſelves of the Times? Certain it is there are ſome now Nonconformiſts, whoſe conſciences would not permit them to ſerve the Times in Bradſhaw's or O. Cromwel's dayes; divers who were turn'd out for not taking the Engagement, have ſince been outed for Nonconformity: They could not ſerve the Times then, and the Times will not ſerve them now. Can ye think we are ſuch Bedlams as to chuſe ſorrow and ſuffering, Bonds and Impriſonments, when we might ſo eaſily eſcape all ſufferings, and have all, honourable imployment in the Miniſtry, and ſome of us (perhaps) preferment and advancement like our Brethren that conform.

Queſt. Do not the Nonconformiſts call the Liturgy, Broth?

Anſw. I never did ſo, and I approve not any that do; yet poſſibly the expreſſion might firſt be occaſioned from that ſaying of Biſhop Bonners, formerly mentioned upon our retaining ſome part of their Service-Book and Ceremonies, If they taſte of our Broth, they may one day come to eat of our Beef. And here let me tell a ſtory: I have heard that a conformable Miniſter invited a Friend, or Friends, to his Houſe, to eat a piece of Collect-Beef; ſo he called Beef roaſted on the Lord's-day, and kept uſually cold in the p. 90houſe all the week; with alluſion, 'tis to be ſuppoſed, to the Rubrick, which ordinarily enjoyn… the Collect for the Lords day, to be read all the week after. I think this Conformiſts Beef, alike unſavory expreſſion with the Nonconformiſts Broth.

Queſt. Do not Nonoonformiſts generally reproach and revile the Conformable Miniſters for their reading the Common-Prayer, and for their Grave and Decent Habits which they wear; and do not Nonconforming-Ministers teach them ſo to do?

Anſw. If any there be who ſcorn or mock at grave, godly, ſober perſons, for their reading the Liturgy, or for their Caſſocks, Girdles, and the like, Take them Donatus for me. Suppoſe ſome few rude perſons ſhould ſlight a Miniſter for his Caſſock, are there not others that mock and jeer at thoſe that want the Canonical Habits? How many are there that preach not, except they have a fling at Nonconformiſts? Are not Nonconformiſts ſcorned and ſcoffed at on the Stage, from the Preſs and from the Pulpit? How are they jeered at, and made a May-game, by this in name Friendly (but really Unfriendly) Debate. 'Tis to be thought the Author of it did never ſeriouſly conſider that ſaying, Non eſt major confuſio quam ſerii & joci; and that other of my Lord Bacon, That it is an inlet to Atheiſm to bring the exerciſe of Religion into contempt, in the perſons of ſundry Preachers. p. 91Fol my part, I eſteem it a point of ſerious and ſolid Godlineſs, to love, honour, reverence Piety, Gravity, Learning, and true Worth, whether in Conformiſts or Nonconformiſts: I look upon it as no good evidence that a man is of the higher form in Religion, to magnifie and multiply the weakneſſes or miſcarriages of a few Diſſenters, to the vilifying and reproach of all or the generality of them. As 'tis an argument of an unjuſt Steward, inſtead of an hundred to write fourſcore or fifty, ſo is it of a falſe and bad Accomptant, inſtead of twenty to ſet down fifty, fourſcore, or an hundred. 'Tis the method and way of God, whom we ought to imitate, to overlook the failings of them that are ſincere, to obſerve and note the little good he ſees in his ſervants, and to paſs by or over-look the evil: So the holy Scripture teacheth us in the caſe and catriage of Sarah to her Husband; of Rahab concerning the Spies; and of the Egyptian Midwives, Exod. 1. 'Tis not the part of a Bee, but of a Flie (we know) and that not of the beſt ſort, to paſs over a goodly Garden of ſweet Flowers, and at laſt to light on a gall'd Back, or a heap of Dung. And 'tis but a dirty buſineſs to rake the Kennels, and throw dirt in the face of Paſſengers.

Queſt. Hath not the Author of the Debate done worthily, like a vigilant Watchman, foreſeeing Danger to King and Kingdom, to alarm p. 92both? See Debate, p. 188, 189.

Anſw. Far be it from me to call the Author of the Debate, Doeg, Iſhmael, or Haman; yet this I may ſay, (without hazard of Truth or Modeſty) That there it falſe accuſation, mocking and ſcoffing in the Treatiſe; and there may be ſomething of Haman, or ambition, ſuſpected to be in him, who would inſinuate to his Majeſty, that 'tis not for his ſafety, nor for the peace of his Kingdoms, to ſuffer theſe Jews, &c. When the bottom of all the uproar may be this, There is perhaps ſome Mordecai in the Gate or in the Pariſh, that will not bow down to him. And yet I dare boldly ſay this, That the Enemy could not countervail the Kings damage, if all the Nonconformists were deſtroyed, or baniſhed out of the Land.

What a fondneſs, folly, madneſs is it to imagine, that men that pretend Godlineſs, practiſe ſobriety, and who are themſelves, and who have their Cheſts, their All, in the ſame Ship with his Majeſty and the State, ſhould go about to blow it up, or bore holes in it, to ſink the Veſſel, themſelves and all together?

It was the ſaying of Mr. Calamy (that diſcreet, honeſt, pious Mr. Calamy) before be died, That he had rather ſuffer under a lawful Soveraign, than be preferred under an Uſurper. The Loyalty of the Nonconformiſts hath been experimented now above ſeven years together, who notwithſtanding p. 93they have ſuffered the loſs of their Places, Callings, Livelihoods, yet in patience poſſeſs their Souls, and pray for his Majeſty and the Government with all their hearts and ſouls. As for the high Conformiſts, I may ſay to them, when they boaſt of their Loyalty, (conſidering the great Honours, Profits, Preferments they enjoy under his Majeſty and the Church-Government) If you do good to them which do good to you, what than have ye? What do ye more than others? Sinners alſo do the ſame.

Queſt. Do not the Nonconformiſts do what they do, onelyonly to act a part, or make a ſhew? If it be poſſible, to drain the Peoples Purſes, pretending Conſcience, but being really moved by carnal Reaſons to their preſent Opinions, Profeſſions, and Practices?

Anſw. Some have better (if any have carnal) reaſons for their Nonconformity: A hundred, two, or three hundred pound per annum, may likely weigh ſomething with ſome Conformiſts too, and might at leaſt help to turn the Scales, when the Judgement was in aequilibro: And if there be not ſome weight in this with ſome, what's the reaſon that Miniſters generally are more conformable than their Pariſhioners, who …ave no ſuch weight or byaſs upon them? As for …heir Gains by their Nonconformity, I may ſay …hey have not the fifth part of what they had formerly; no, not the Tythe of what the Conformiſts p. 94have: Some of them are forced to work with their hands, to turn to ſecular imployment. Others, who cannot Work nor beg, if others did not work or beg for them, were in danger to ſtarve.

Queſt. How could that man pretend Conſcience for his Nonconformity, that condemned the Common Prayer, and confeſſed he had never read it over in all his Life?

Anſw. Perhaps though he had not read it all over, he might have read ſome of it, and liked not the taſte of it. But I put him, (if ſuch a one there was) with thoſe hundreds that ſubſcribed and gave their Aſſent and Conſent to it, and to all and every thing contained therein, before ever they had ſeen the Book Authoriſed by Parliament; it being at that time, if printed, yet not ſent down into the ſeveral Dioceſſes where they were to teſtifie their approbation of it.

Quest. Are not Nonconformiſts a ſowr and ſad ſort of Chriſtians, a Generation not at all Sanguine , of Melancholy Tempers, moroſe, and but bad Companions?

Anſw. They are not all ſo, nor always ſo, and ſome of them not at all ſo: and as good Friends and Companions as the World hath any. The Fogs and Damps are in the lower part of the Air and Earth, and the Clouds are in the middle Region; all is pure and ſerene, and always ſo, in the upper Region. Chriſtians of the lower p. 95Form, Conformiſts or Nonconformists, are liable oft-times to be under Darkneſs, and under the power of Melancholy for a time: Yet as they advance higher, the Weather is clearer with them; and ordinarily the more perfect Chriſtian, the more …ful Christian. Yet this may be ſaid for weeping Chriſtians, they may have Joy in their Hearts, when there are Tears in their Eyes; is the Sun ſometimes ſhines whilſt it rains. David, one of the greateſt Mourners in Iſrael, witneſs his watering his Couch with his Tears, &c. was yet the ſweet Singer of Iſrael. Heavineſs endures for a Night, and Joy comes in the Morning. And though Chriſtians ſometimes deny themſelves, yet God doth never deny them any lawful Delight; not did God ever make Godly Sorrow to deſtroy mens Bodies (though to help towards the Salvation of their Souls) I have heard that Old Mr. Dod obſerved, That if Godly Sorrow ſhould have killed any man, it might have moſt probably been Adam, (the first and none of the leaſt Sinners) becauſe of his Apoſtacy from God, and Fall from Happineſs, he and his Poſterity; yet he lived 930 years.

Queſt. Do Nonconformiſts teach, That Chriſtians muſt be ever ſpeaking of God in conference with men, or with God in Prayer and Meditation? Muſt they have nothing elſe in their mouths in all Places, Times, and Companies?

p. 96Anſw. Mr. Shepherd of New-England adviſeth not to entertain good thoughts, if they prove a hindrance to a Chriſtian in his particular calling. And Mr. Carter, coming upon one of his neighbours, that was a Tanner, ſuddenly, and finding him taughing of a Hide; and the man excuſing himſelf for being found ſo: the Miniſter anſwered, I deſire Jeſus Chriſt may find me ſo, when he calls for me, or when he comes, that is, buſied about the works of my calling. I grant it is very commendable for perſons who have ability and have time and leiſure from buſineſs, and are in ſutable company, to be often ſpenking one to another of Chriſt and of Heaven, and to ſtir up one another to Faith, Love, and Good-works; God's People did thus in the Prophet Malachy's dayes, (Mal. 3.) and they that did ſo, are eſteemed God's Jewels; but with us, at leaſt by many amongſt us, ſuch kind of perſons are as vile (though not ſo common) as the ſtones in the ſtreet. In other Religions they account of men the more and the better, the more religious they ſeem to be, and the more preciſe, ſtrict and punctual they are in the obſervation of the Rules of their Religion: So the Papiſts, ſo the Turks. The Turks account all Fools to be Saints: and many amongſt us account all Saints to be Fools, and the greater Saints the greater Fools.

Quest. Are not Nonconformiſts more preciſe than wiſe, in not allowing themſelves and others p. 97the delights of Playes and other divertiſments?

Anſw. Dr. Heylin in his Geography obſerves that the Proteſtant Miniſters in France are ſo ſtrait-laced as not to allow of mixt dancing. The Nonconformiſts here are not all of this Judgement; they did not, do not uſe to enquire before perſons approach unto the Lord's Table, whether or no, where, when, or how often they have danced? whether they go to ſee Comaedies, &c. I my ſelf have been asked whether Dancing was lawful? I anſwered, Dancing was lawful; but whether mixt dancing was, they could tell better than I: If it was to them a motive or incitement to evil, to them it was unlawful, elſe I dare not condemn it as ſinful; I will not make more ſins than the holy Scripture, and the Light of Nature has diſcovered to be ſo.