Dialogue Between the Baptist and the Presbyterian, Title page – Preface
A DIALOGUE Between the BAPTIST AND THE PRESBYTERIAN.
WHEREIN The Presbyterians are puniſhed by their own Pens, for their Cruel and Soul-devouring Doctrines, making God the Ordainer of all the Sins of Men and Devils: And reprobating the greateſt part of Mankind, without any help of Salvation.
Whereunto is annexed, A Treatiſe of ELECTION, Intituled, The Order of Cauſes: Formerly publiſhed by an Eminent Servant of Chriſt, and now republiſhed with ſome Explication concerning FREE-WILL.
By THOMAS GRANTHAM, Meſſenger of the Baptized Churches in Lincolnſhire.
Pſal. 64. 7, 8, 9.
But God ſhall ſhoot at them with an Arrow, ſuddenly ſhall they be wounded. So ſhall they make their own Tongue to fall upon themſelves: all that ſee them, ſhall flee away. And all Men ſhall fear, and ſhall declare the Work of God; for they ſhall wiſely conſider of his doing.
London, Printed in the Year, 1691.
An Epiſtolary Preface, to the Citizens of the Ancient City of Norwich.
Honoured Sirs;
GOD's Providence having ordered my Refidence in this City▪ and my Buſineſs being to Preach the Goſpel, I have endeavoured to perform my Office amongſt you; for which I have met with many unkind and undue Reflections, and more eſpecially from that ſort of Profeſſors who have eſpouſed the Principles and Doctrine of Mr. John Calvin, concerning his imaginary Decree of abſolute and irreſpective Reprobation.
Two Confeſſions of Faith I find much received in this City, containing theſe words; God did from all Eternity, freely and unchangeably ordain ALL THINGS whatſoever come to paſs.—And that his Almighty Power extendeth it ſelf even to the firſt Fall, and all other Sins of Angels and Men, and that not by a bare permiſſion. And that By the Decree of God, ſome Angels and Men were fore-ordained to Everlaſting Death.—And that theſe Angels and Men, thus predeſtinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably deſigned; and their Number ſo certain and definite, that it cannot be either encreaſed or diminiſhed. See the Conf. of Faith by the Aſſemb. of Divines. In which Confeſſion, they alſo teach, That God did not decree any of thoſe things, becauſe he foreſaw they would come to paſs: But they make the Decree of God the FIRST Cauſe of all things whatſoever comes to paſs, Chap. 5. Sect. 2. So that according to this Doctrine, all the Sins, both of Devils and Men, from the beginning to the end of the World, was by force of God's Decree, THE FIRST CAUSE, unavoidably neceſſary; and hereupon alſo the unavoidable Damnation of juſt ſuch a Number, both of Angels and Men, as God would have to be …ed, and no more.
And hereupon it will follow, that God's Decree was … that Cain killed his Brother Abel; that Ruben polluted his Fathe… David committed Adultery with Bathſheba, and murdered … and of all the Villanies in the World. The odiouſneſs of w… will better appear, if we put this Caſe: A oweth B 100 l. he pays it, for ſo it was decreed; but then comes C in the Night, and robs B of his 100 l. and alſo cuts his Throat. And this comes to paſs alſo by force of God's Decree unavoidably; becauſe (ſay they) God did from all Eternity unchangeably decree all things whatſoever comes to paſs. That I do them no wrong by thus ſpeaking, hear the words of Calvin himſelf, Inſt. L. 1. c. 17. Thieves and Murderers are the Inſtruments of Divine Providence, which the Lord himſelf uſeth to execute his Judgments, which he hath determined in himſelf, and that he works through them.
When I had ſeriouſly conſidered, that many were enſnared in theſe dreadful and blaſphemous Doctrines, to the exaſperating their Spirits, againſt the Truth of the Goſpel, and againſt ſuch as do ſincerely preach it as the Means of Salvation to all Men, ſcandalizing them by the Name of Free-willers, &c. I did find my ſelf concern'd, to teſtify againſt this unmerciful Doctrine, and this unrighteous Accuſation about Free-will *Concerning which Point of Free-will, you ſhall have an Account in the laſt Treatiſe, where it will appear, they that accuſe others, do hold as much as the Perſons they accuſe (if not more) concerning Free-will.; And to preach the Everlaſting Goſpel, that God is not willing that any ſhould periſh, but that All ſhould come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3. 9. And being well aſſured of the ſincerity of my Doctrine and purpoſe, I did as Occaſion offered aſſert the Truth, both by Word and Writing.
And hearing that Dr. John Collings was the greateſt Aſſertor of the Reprobatarian Principles; I found an opportunity to write to him, upon the occaſion of a Paſſage in his Book, Intituled, A Diſcourſe of Divine Love, pag. 259. which I now publiſh, with his Anſwer, and my Reply, to prevent and correct falſe Reports, which have gone abroad amongſt ſome concerning theſe Papers. The Doctor's Propoſition is this:
God cannot ſeriouſly act, and be finally oppoſed.
A dangerous Poſition it is; as if the final Impenitency of Sinners, were the iſſue of ſome want of ſeriouſneſs in God; that is, though he calls them to Repentance, yet he does not inwardly intend that they ſhall repent: and to this purpoſe he quotes ſeveral Scriptures; all which will be evident by the Papers following. My firſt to him proceeds thus.
Some Obſervations upon a Paſſage of Dr. Collings, in his Diſcourſe of Divine Love, pag. 259. Viz. God cannot ſeriouſly act, and be finally oppoſed.
1. HEre the final Impenitency of Sinners is charged upon God, for that he is not ſerious in leading them to Repentance; directly contrary to the Word of God, Rom. 2. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
2. It reflecteth upon God's gracious Expoſtulation, and acting in a way of Mercy with Cain, (who oppoſed God finally) as if God was not ſerious with him.
3. It reflecteth upon God's ſtriving by his Spirit with the old World; as if God did not ſtrive ſeriouſly, nor act ſeriouſly by the preaching of Noah, wherein God waited long, and yet they oppoſed finally.
4. It reflecteth upon God's Counſel to the Phariſees, (quoted by the Doctor) as if he was not ſerious in that Counſel, which he by his Servant John the Baptiſt gave them, to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance; for they reſiſted finally, as the Doctor himſelf intimates.
5. It renders God not ſerious in ſending his Prophets to turn Iſrael from their Iniquities, Jer. 7. 13. (which is quoted by the Doctor) for they did oppoſe finally, and were caſt out, and the Prophet was forbidden to pray for them, Jer. 7. 15, 16.
6. It impeacheth God as not ſerious, in calling Iſrael to Repentance, Pſal. 81. (quoted by the Doctor) for they oppoſed finally, and God gave them up to their own Hearts Luſts, and they walked in their own Counſels, Ver. 12.
7. The Doctor reflects diſhonour upon Chriſt, as not ſerious in his actings towards Jeruſalem, when he would have gathered them, (the words are quoted by the Doctor) when yet he wept over them, for their final Oppoſition. For the things which did once belong to their Peace, were now hid from their Eyes.
Finally, The Doctor is humbly intreated, that he do not oppoſe God finally, by ſuch Reflections as theſe, nor by finally rejecting the Counſel of God againſt himſelf, as the Phariſees did, for he hath been long under the Power of that Sin.
Norwich, Sept. 12. 1690. Tho. Grantham.
Here follows the Doctor's Anſwer, dated Sept. 12. 1690.
I Received a Letter this Night, by an unknown Hand, from an unknown Perſon, who calleth himſelf Thomas Grantham: Whoſoever that Thomas Grantham be, I perceive he is one, that either knoweth God ſo little, as that he believeth him not Omnipotent, or of ſo little ſenſe, as to affirm Omnipotency may be reſisted, when it ſeriouſly willeth to effect an End; which it cannot do, without a willing to put forth its utmoſt Power to effect it.
He ſeems mightily ſcandalized at a Saying in a Book of Mine, on 1 Cant. p. 259. God cannot ſeriouſly Act, and yet be finally reſisted. That is, he cannot act ſeriouſly, for any End or Effect, and be finally oppoſed as to that intended Effect. This Propoſition I thought had been ſecured, as well by that of the Apoſtle, Who hath reſiſted his Will at any time? As from the Nature of God, who is Almighty, and therefore cannot be finally oppoſed in what he reſolveth, [that is, willeth to effect:] but that God may be finally oppoſed in what he adviſeth or commandeth, none that ever I heard of yet denied.
Well, but if this Gentleman may not have his Notion, the final Impenitence of Sinners muſt lie at God's Door, contrary R. 2. 2, 3, &c. Firſt, Let the Author prove, That God willed their Repentance by an inward Act of his Will; for if he did not, his Act in calling them to Repentance, might have another End, as to which he was not, nor could not be oppoſed.
The ſame muſt be proved, as to his Inſtances of the old World, the Phariſees, the Jews, &c. Let him prove, that God within himſelf, willed the Eternal Salvation of theſe Perſons, and to do what in him lay towards it, and accordingly acted; or affirm that any reaſonable Creature, can ſeriouſly act for an End, and yet not inwardly will it, or put forth his Power in order to it.
For his Admonition and Charge in the cloſe, I ſhall only ſay with the Apoſtle, It is a ſmall thing to be judged of Men, eſpecially Men who underſtand the Nature of God no better. But I have too much Buſineſs further to regard ſuch Impertinencies.
J. Collings.
To this Letter I ſent this Reply.
Reverend Sir,
1. IN much faithfulneſs to God and you, I ſent you my Obſervations upon your Poſition, i. e. God cannot ſeriouſly act, and be finally oppoſed; for I think you are the firſt Man that ever ſpake ſo of the God of Truth. But you perſiſt in it, and labour to defend it, by accuſing me of Ignorance about God's Omnipotency; And are you ſure you know him therein unto Perfection? You cannot fairly collect from my Paper, that God can be reſiſted in the thing wherein he will act Omnipotently, for then he ſhould ceaſe to be God. But does God never act Seriouſly when he doth not act Omnipotently? This, Sir ſeems to be your Notion, but it is far from Truth.
2. Nor do theſe words [who hath reſiſted his Will at any time] prove your Propoſition; for I find them not in the Bible. Indeed, St. Paul ſhews that ſome bold Spirits would be ready to interrogate the moſt High much after that rude manner, but I hope Dr. Collings will not do ſo. For he cannot but know, He has often reſiſted God when he ſeriouſly adviſed him to the contrary, as well as my ſelf and others have done, for which we ought to be greatly humbled. Let him not then think to defend himſelf by adding to the Text, leſt he be reproved.
3. You ſeem to hold that God cannot affect an End, [I ſuppoſe you mean, he cannot convert a Sinner] without a willing to put forth the utmoſt of his Power to effect it. But you cannot give an Inſtance, where he ever did exert or put forth the utmoſt of his Power in any thing that ever he did. We muſt take heed we limit not the Power of the Almighty, leſt whileſt we accuſe others, we our ſelves prove our ſelves the moſt ignorant of his Omnipotency.
4. You ſhould not alter the Terms of your Propoſition. But let us conſider what you now ſay; God cannot ſeriouſly act (you ſay) for any End or Effect, and be finally oppoſed as to that intended Effect. And yet you grant, God may be finally oppoſed in what he adviſeth or commands: but ſeeing you explain God's reſolving by his willing a thing, here ſeems to be a plain Contradiction, unleſs you can be ſo hardy as to ſay, when God Adviſeth or commands Men to forſake Evil, and learn to do well, his Will is not that they ſhould do ſo; and when he commands all Men every where to repent and obey his Voice, he inwardly never intends they ſhall do the one or the other, for he wills not that; and if he wills not that, then he wills the contrary, that he may puniſh them for not doing that which he would not have them to do; or elſe he wills nothing at all, and ſo his Advice and Commands ſignify nothing. But indeed your meaning is, God commands and adviſeth Men well, but wills they ſhall not obey that; ſo he may damn them for not obeying, as appears in the cloſe of your 2d Paragraph. And you alſo put me to prove, that God did will Sinners to Repentance, Rom. 2. by an inward Will. And what is this, but to tell the World, that God does not mean as he ſpeaks? Sir, Was it not the Riches of his Goodneſs, and his Long-ſuffering that ſhould have led them to Repentance? O no! you will imagine God had no ſuch End, but another, as to which God was not, nor could not be oppoſed, and that was not their Salvation; why then it muſt be their Damnation. But I had rather believe the Apoſtle than you; he ſhews that God's end was to lead them to Repentance, and that is the way to Salvation.
5. But I muſt prove alſo, that God willed within himſelf, the Salvation of the old World, the Phariſees, &c. whom he called to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance; and that he willed the eternal Salvation of the Jews, Pſal. 81. and thoſe over whom Chriſt wept for their diſobedience with an inward Will.
1. Then for the old World, The Lord was ſo ſerious, and ſo inwardly concern'd, that he ſtrove with them by his Spirit; and it grieved him at his Heart that they were ſo diſobedient: and he gave them a Preacher of Righteouſneſs, and an hundred Years ſpace to repent in. And I think this ſhews that he inwardly willed their Repentance; yea, and I am ſure that had they repented, he would not have deſtroyed them, for he hath taught us ſo to judg of his Threatnings againſt ſinful Nations, Jer. 18. 7, 8. Jona 3. 10.
2. Is it poſſible that you ſhould call in queſtion God's Seriouſneſs with the Jews, Pſal. 81? Are not theſe his words? O that my People had hearkned unto me, and Iſrael had walked in my Ways! verſ. 13. See alſo verſ. 8. 9, 10. and judg your ſelf. Surely if you, or any Man elſe, ſhould ſpeak thus to his Friends, or Enemies either, it would be great uncharitableneſs to think you were not ſerious, and had an inward will for their happineſs, unleſs we knew you to be a Diſſembler, [which temper cannot be found in God].
3. That Chriſt was [inwardly] ſerious in his endeavours to gather Jeruſalem, appears by his Words, and by his Tears, which are ſuch as may even break an Heart of Stone. And ſure I am, God's Mind in ſending Chriſt to them was to turn EVERY ONE OF THEM AWAY FROM THEIR INIQUITIES, Act 3. ult.
4. Now for the Phariſees, they were part of the Jews to whom Chriſt was ſent, and in many things they were the beſt Sect of the Jewiſh People; and God did, by his Servant John, ſeriouſly call them to Repentance; yea, his Counſel was of God, Luk. 7. 29, 30. Who never ſaid to the Houſe of Iſrael, Seek ye me in vain. And yet if he were not now ſerious, but ſpake one thing, and thought another, yea, determined and reſolved another, you will then make him ſay to them, Seek ye me in vain. But far be it from the Almighty, that his Word ſhould be Yea and Nay. Sir, It is becauſe God is true, that his Miniſters may boldly aſſure poor Sinners that he wills not their Death, but that they turn and live; yea, he hath ſworn, He hath no pleaſure in the Death of the Wicked. And hence I conclude, [againſt your dangerous Poſition] that God is altogether ſerious, even as Seriouſneſs it ſelf.
Tho. Grantham.
To this Letter the Doctor gave no Reply. But a Friend of his ſent me a ſmall Paper of Verſes, as I ſuppoſe, to pick ſome Quarrel with me about Free-Will: And thus they ſpeak.
IF Faith be not, what can we then foreſee?
Or, how can we avoid it if it be?
If by Free-Will in our own Acts we move,
How are we bounded by Decrees above?
So whether we drive, or whether we be driven;
If Ill, it's ours; if Good, the Act of Heaven.
To this captious piece of Poetry, I made this ſhort return.
OUR own Free-Will! 'Tis non-ſenſe, ſince 'tis true,
Our own we are not; Then our Will is due
To him that made us; and when we were loſt,
Reſtor'd our Loſs at his own proper Coſt.
Free-Will's more talk'd of, than well underſtood;
That Will's not truly free, that is not good.
God is no Author of the Will that's Evil;
The Will that leads to Sin is of the Devil.
Decrees from Heaven reſtrain, not farther Sin;
Much leſs does cauſe Sin. For it did begin
From Satan; This God's Word does plainly ſhew,
Who charge't on Heaven's Decrees, their Charge will rue.
Norwich, whence came this Leaven into thee,
To fix thy Sin firſt upon God's Decree?
T. G.
After this another nameleſs Poet aſſaults me; but his Lines being ſo exceeding ridiculous, it would but prophane the Muſes to commit them to Poſterity: And becauſe their chief Clamour was againſt my preaching, that Chriſt died for all Men; and for that cauſe calling me a falſe Teacher, I reſolved to try whether plain Scripture, without my Commentary, would paſs for currant amongſt our Reprobatarians, wherefore I wrote as followeth.
To the Nameleſs and Nonſenſical Poet.
SIR,
YOur great Quarrel is, becauſe I teach this Doctrine, That Chriſt died for all, and not only for ſome.
Now thus ſaith the Lord,
We ſee Jeſus made a little lower than the Angels, for the ſuffering of Death,—that he by the Grace of God ſhould taſte Death Heb. 2. 9.for every Man.
He is a Propitiation for our Sins: and not for ours only, but 1 Joh. 2. 2.alſo for the Sins of the whole World.
He gave himſelf a Ranſom for all.1 Tim. 2. 6.
And if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died 2 Cor. 5. 14, 15.for all—.
The Bread that I will give, is my Fleſh, which I will give for the Joh. 6. 51.Life of the World.
God is the Saviour of all Men, ſpecially of them that believe.1 Tim. 4. 10.
This is good and acceptable in the ſight of God our Saviour; who will have All Men to be ſaved, and come to the knowledg of 1 Tim. 2. 3, 4.the Truth.
Not willing that any ſhould periſh, but that All ſhould come to 2 Pet. 3. 9.Repentance.
And he commandeth All Men every where to repent.Act. 17. 30.
As by the Offence of One, judgment came on all Men; even ſo Rom. 5. 18.by the Righteouſneſs of One, the free Gift came upon All Men to juſtification of Life.
For as in Adam all die, even ſo in Chriſt ſhall all be made alive.1 Cor. 15. 22.
They that have done Good, to the Reſurrection of Life; and they that have done Evil, to the Reſurrection of Damnation.Joh. 5. 29.
Denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themſelves 2 Pet. 2. 1.ſwift Deſtruction.
For God ſent not his Son into the World to condemn the World; John 3. 17, 18.but that the World through him might be ſaved. He that believeth on him, is not condemned; but he that believeth not, is condemned already, becauſe he hath not believed in the Name of the only begotten Son of God.
God will judg the Secrets of Men according to the Goſpel.Rom. 2. 16
Which hath been preached to every Creature under Heaven.Col. 1. 23.
He hath ſhewed thee, O Man, what is good.Mich. 6. 8.
The Lord is gracious, and full of compaſſion, flow to anger, Pſ. 103. 8.and of great Mercy.
The Lord is good to all, and his tender Mercies are over all his Pſ. 145. 9.Works.
By theſe Authorities I teach, that Chriſt died for All.
Now, Sir, ſhew me (if you can) where the Scripture tells us, that Chriſt died BUT for ſome only, and not for all. For hitherto I have not met with any ſuch Teſtimony in the Word of God.
And ſeeing you think Chriſt died but for ſome only, ſhew me ſufficient Teſtimony from the Scripture, that he died for your ſelf: And name one (if you can) now living in this great City, for whom Chriſt died not. And when you have done theſe things well, you may expect ſome further Account of your Paper.
Your abuſed Friend, Tho. Grantham.
Finally; To give you ſome Account of the Dialogue and Treatiſe enſuing. For the firſt; Being a great diſtance from my Study, I could not have the help of my own Books. The Collection therefore which I here give you, I have taken from ſeveral Writers, but chiefly from Mr. Tho. Pierce, (a Perſon of great Learning and Judgment); 1. From his Correct Copy of Notes. 2. His Divine Philanthropie defended. 3. His Divine Purity defended. 4. The Self-Revenger exemplified, in Mr. B. And, 5. Self-Condemnation exemplified in Mr. W. and others. Where the ſtudious Reader may not only find thoſe Quotations more fully ſet down, and perhaps more exactly quoted, but alſo very well maintained, (againſt his learned Adverſaries who have laboured to excuſe them, and to palliate the Diſeaſe which they diſcover); and therefore I have the more willingly made this preſent uſe of them, I hope without his Offence.
For the Treatiſe, you will therein find the Caſe of Election clearly handled, and ſo familiarly demonſtrated according to Scripture-Light, that the meaneſt Capacity may arrive at competent Satisfaction, and be delivered from the diſmal Snares wherewith the World hath been encumbered by Mens preſumptuous pretending to know a ſecret Will in God, contrary to his revealed Will in his Word: Which is a vile Abſurdity, and calls in queſtion the Veracity of the Almighty, with whom is no variableneſs, nor ſhadow of turning.
Your Servant for Jeſus ſake, Tho. Grantham. Norwich, 12th Month, (vulg. Feb.) 1690.