Weighty Questions Discussed, Question 2
Second Queſtion.
AReverend Author out of a Book compoſed [as he tells us] by ſeveral Biſhops and great Doctors, and approved by Authority, in King Henry the Eighth's dayes, hath Collected theſe Propoſitions:
Firſt, That a Parochial or Congregational-Church Government, is accordint to the Church of England, jure Divino,
Secondly, That the Dioceſan or National Government is jure Hamano.
Thirdly, That Proteſtants [except ſome obſcure Writer] aſſert, Particular Churches to be the foreign of Church-Government.
Among whom, ſaith he, there are theſe differences:
1. The Epiſcopal and Presbyterian differ from the Congregational about the Extent of particular Churches, i. e. the Congregational concludes there muſt be no more than are capable of Perſonal Communion: The former make a greater extent, and give too great advantage to Papacy.
2. They differ concerning the Nature of Diſcipline; the Congregational being eſteemed an Eſpouſer of a Democracy, the Presbyterian of an Ariſtocracy, the Epiſcopal of Monarchy.
[But Maccovius aTheol. Polem. p. 161., Keckerman bSyſt. Theol. p. 3.mention another, Ariſto Democratical, and Dr. Ames cMedul. Theol. p. 1. c. 33. theſ. 20.ſeems to be of the ſame judgment]
Fourthly, All Proteſtants agree in afferting the Independency of particular Churches.
Thus far my Author.
That we may underſtand one another clearly: Suppoſe we then that all the Chriſtians in England, that dwell in their ſeveral Pariſhes, were ſuch as deſerved the Name of Viſible Saints; theſe meet every Lords-Day in their Pariſh-Church [as they call it] to Worſhip God, where there is but one Paſtor. [Lecturers and Readers are but in few Pariſhes in the Countrey, nor have they any Power in Church-Government.]
1. Are theſe the particular Churches you mean, by the words Parochial and Congregational? I ſuppoſe my Brother means ſo.
2. Is every ſuch particular Church the foreign of the Power of the Keys?
3. Are all theſe Independert? my Brother hath ſaid it.
Firſt, I deſire my Brother would Name one ſuch Church, which the Apoſtles did Conſtitute but with one Teaching Elder or Paſter.
Secondly, How you may perſwade the Paſtor to admit the People to be Rulers with them, I cannot tell, but I doubt we ſhould have a Monarclical-Government ſet up in every Pariſh in England, which you ſay the Biſhops eſpouſe.
Mr. Norton, as acute and Learned Divine as New-England had, being at a Meeting of about forty Elders, one that was newly come into the Countrey was reading to the Elders what his Judgment was about Church-Government: He would have it to be Democratical, quoting Morellus ſeveral times: What have we to do with Mor…llus, ſaid Mr. Norton to me; if I cannot prove the Government of the Church to be Presbyterial, I will give up our Cauſe.
Thirdly, If all theſe particular Churches be Independent, I fear we ſhould have wild doings, Experience have proved it already. At this day we ſee woful effects of it.If there be one or two Gentlemen, of Purſe, Piety and Parts, that ſtick cloſe to the Miniſter, and awe the People, things may go on quietly; elſe if there be but two Self-conceited, pragmatical Fellows, as I have known, you ſhould ſoon ſee what will become of your Parochial-government.
Fourthly, Suppoſe the Paſtor be foully ſcandalized by ſome of his Church, one or more, how ſhall the Government be carryed on? ſhall he be Plaintiff and Judge in his own Caſe? I have known a Caſe where a Paſtor had great Offence given, I propounded the Caſe to Dr. Owen *And Mr. Faldo., whether that Paſtor ſhould proceed according to Matth. 18.15, 16? he told me by no means, when he heard my Reaſon. We ſhall meet with hard Caſes if we come to ſet to Government indeed.
Fifthly, Suppoſe the Paſtor himſelf grow ſcandalous, how ſhall Government be carried on now?
Sixthly, Good Men and Miniſters are ſubject to Paſſions and Infirmities, whence it is not fit the Government of the Church ſhould be Committed to One alone.
Seventhly, To Govern will is a Giſt by it ſelf; a Man may be a good Preacher, but no good Governo…r.
Eighthly, When our Lord ſent out the Apoſtles, and the Seventy, only to Pre…, he ſent them out by two and two, Mar. 6.7. L…k. 10.1. Now a ſingle Paſter undertakes all.
Ninthly, The Jewiſh Synagogues bad ſeveral Elders to carry on the Government in one of their Synagogues, and we but one, … vident O…li, quam O…ul…s.
It is true, our Paſtor with his People may truely be called a Church; as that Woman who had no Arms, but held bee Pen between her Toes, and ſo wrote, … have ſeen of her Writing … may well be ſaid to be Animal rationale, a r…io… Creature; but had God made the W…an ſo at firſt, the Woman had not been a … to Man So here is a Company of V…ible Stints, one Pa…or, here is Preaching, Prayer, Adminiſtration of Sacraments, and in ſome Caſes Excreſſe of Diſcipline, ſo that it is a true Church, but not ſuch a Church as the Apoſlles ſent by Chriſt did Con…itute, … to anſwer all ends of a Church; 'tis imperfect, defective, and our Duty is to write after that Copy the Apoſtles of Chriſt have ſet us.
Dr. Owen hath proved there ought to be many Elders in every Church, 2d. Part of the Church, p. 138.by Scriptures and Reaſons, I think ſufficiently.
Soon after the Apoſtles in the Primitive Churches, Mr. Clarkſon in his Diſcourſe againſt Dioceſan Churches [his firſt Book, p. 5.21.] hath ſhown there were more Presbyters in every Church than were neceſſary.
In thoſe Virgin Churches in the Valleys of Piedmont, which were never deſiled with Popery, but kept pure from the Apoſtles dayes, [where I find Ordination was with Impoſition of Hands, contrary to our Men] I read in their low Condition ſeven Elders made a Claſſis; they carryed on their Government by joint Councils; they had their Conſiſtories, and 140 Paſtors heretofore in a Synod.
Whence, this one Teaching Elder, or a ſingle Paſtor in a Church, is a Nov…l thing, different from the Apoſtles, and the Practices of the beſt Churches.
The laſt time I was with Dr. Owen, diſcourſing, with him about Church-Government, he was ſaying to me, I would ſain know whether the Government of the Houſe of God be likely to be moſt prevalent, being carryed on by one ſingle Paſtor, or by many Elders met together, and Acting in the Name of the Lord? I think the Queſtion may be eaſily Anſwered, and in Order to it, I ſtate the Queſtion:
Queſt. Whether unto the right Conſtitution of a particular Goſpel-Church, it be Neceſſary that all the Officers and Members of the Church do meet together in one place at one time, to Celebrate all the Inſtitutions of Chriſt?
The Learned Dr. Owen having changed his Opinion from what it was when he wrote his Countrey Eſſay for the practice of Church-Government; p. 5….when he would have the extream of the Diviſion not above eight or ten Miles, ſo the Center not more than four or five Miles from any part of it, &c. He now tells us, To maniſeſt that Aſſemblies of the whole Church, at once and in one place, for the Celebration of Divine Worſhip, is of the Eſſence of a Church, without which it hath no real Being, — the Lord appointed the Males which were the Circumciſed Church, ſhould appear in one place three times a Year, Exod. 23 14. Deut. 16.16.
I did not think that Place being but a Subject, and Time an Adjunct, ſhould be Eſſential to a Church; yea, ſo as no real Being without them.
Neither am I ſatisfied with this Proof: For their Meetings three times a Year, were to perform three particular Services, proper to the Jews, and that but once a Year, and that day the Law appointed, and no other, we have no ſuch Appointments under the Goſpel: The Lord's Supper which anſwers the Paſlover, was Celebrated every Lords-Day in the Primitive Churches.
2ly. Only the Males appeared then: We think Women and Children as well as then Children, are Members of the Church, and ought to appear with the Males, to Worſhip God every Lords-Day.
3ly. When they were in Jeruſalem, the Metropolis of the Kingdom, how did their eating the Paſſover in a thouſand, it may be two thouſand ſeveral Houſes, anſwer our Partaking of the Lords Supper at one Table in one particular Church? we ſhould have ſo many Churches: The other Feaſts were proper to them.
Nor could they meet in the Court all at one time to Worſhip God, there being in David's time, 1 Chron. 21.5, 6.one Million, five hundred and ſeventy thouſand men [beſides the Tribes of Benjamin and L…i] that drew Sword.
The Dr. tells us, 1ſt. Book, p. 87. & 353.The Members of ſuch a Church may and ought to meet occaſionally in diſtinct Aſſemblies, eſpecialty in times of Perſecution, for Prayer, Preading of the Word, mutual Exhortation, &c. And in another place, The conſtant meeting in one place is not beſt for Ediſication.
Since he mentions Preaching of the Word, I ſuppoſe he means their Officers are with them to Preach to them, and why not then as well to Adminiſter the Lords Supper as to Preach? one Scripture againſt it I would gladly ſee. To Baptize, they do not queſtion. There were three Teaching Elders in Dr. Owen's Church, [the only Church that I know of in England, that came up to the Apoſtolical Pattern] theſe three might meet together with their Members in times of Perſecution, eſpecially in three diſtinct Aſſembles, conſequently Places, to Pray, to Preach, to Baptize, and to Adminiſter the Lords Supper, for any thing I know out of God's Word: Then may not we meet in diſtinct Aſſemblies to ſuch Ends, and yet be but one particular Church, as his was; but for other Ends we may meet in one place.
So in the Countrey Villages we may have many Elders in one particular Church, as he ſaith there ought to be, elſe I know not how we ſhall do for Churches in the Countrey.
But to come to the Queſtion: If the whole Church meeting together in one place, and at one time, be eſſential to a Church, and it hath no real …eing without it, then it muſt be proved: 1. Either from Divine Precept. Or, 2. From the Examples of the Churches planted by the Apoſtles. Or, 3. From forcing Reaſons drawn from the Ends of Worſhip.
For the firſt, I ſee none named, but Example is the Proof, and the words foreign, mentioned in the Acts and Corinthians, are the Corner-ſtone of this Building; five times pious and learned Amts quotes theſe words: *Vol. 2. p. 755.Dr. Lightſoot hath ſpoken very clearly to theſe words againſt it.
I grant, where there are many Elders and much People dwelling ſo that they can meet conveniently in one place, to carry on all Church-work, as was the Caſe of all the Churches we read of in the Goſpel, being in Cities, there is a particular Church without any queſtion. So I yield to foreign.
But I wiſh theſe Men who are ſo rigid for one place, had but the experience in themſelves which I have obſerv'd in others. Precious Chriſtians, who had no Coaches nor Horſes to carry them, but craſie Bodies, yet longing for the Ordinances, which they might have had, if my Notion might prevail, within two Stones caſt, but for this Notion of the One Place they muſt Travel two Miles; they do ſo, but when they come home at Night, they are ſo ſpent and tired that to Bed they muſt goe, the next day came Complaining to me, they had loſt the Benefit of the Ordinances, they could mind nothing but their Pain. Many Chriſtians having infirm Bodies muſt nor enjoy the Ordinances at all, when they might have them the next door: Hath God no reſpect to the Bodies of his People?
As to the Examples he brings, the Queſtion is, Whether there were no more Chriſtians in theſe Cities than could meet in one place? if not, then 'tis no more than I have yielded before; for theſe had many Elders in them to carry on all Church-work, which the Dr. faith ought to be, and is the thing I ſtand upon, from the Apoſtolical Conſtitution of Churches.
But if his Argument from Examples be ſo Cogent, then he muſt bring us Examples out of theſe Cities, where there were more Chriſtians than could meet in one place, at one time, and ſo were forced to meet in more places, and theſe made more diſtinct Churches. If theſe Examples can be brought, then I yield the Queſtion from Examples.
But if no ſuch Examples can be brought, [as I am ſure there is not one in all the Goſpel] then the Argument from Examples falls, and is of no force.
Obj. If they did meet in diſtinct places, they were, and muſt be diſtinct Churches?
Anſw. But his Proof is all from Example, and that implies there were ſuch Churches de facto, elſe there could be no Example.
2. I deny the Conſequence; for tho' a Number of Chriſtians did ſwarm out of the firſt Church, yet they might have but one Teaching Elder, and ſo could not carry on all Church-work; and there ought to be many Elders in one Church, ſaith the Dr. be they ſix or ſeven Congregations, it comes to the ſame. I have heard that in Lantaſhire there is one great Pariſh Church, and ſeveral Chappels belong unto it, in which Miniſters Preach and Adminiſter the Lords Supper, which do ſhadow out what I aim at.
As to the Examples which are brought, Mede and Fuller, Men of great Learning, tell us, that in the firſt Century, Chriſtians had a room Dedicated and Appropriated to the Worſhip of God, [what their Deſign is I leave] yet they tell us it was but a room in ſome private Diſciples Houſe: Nor in the ſecond Century had they publick Places to meet in, ſay our Homilies againſt Idolatry, lib. 2. p. 66.
The Lord tells Paul, Acts 18.10. I have much People in Corinth: How much? ſo much as may meet in one place in a private Diſciple's Houſe, when their Tables for their Love-Feaſts, &c. are ſet: This is much honour to the Text.
Several of the Fathers underſtand the word Church, in 1 Corinth. 11.18. to be meant the place where the Church met; Contin…ns pro Continento, and I think it may be ſo well underſtood, foreign, theſe were the Church of the believing Corinthians, that met together foreign, in the Church. The Church here is oppoſed to their own Houſes, v. 22. then I know nothing againſt it but foreign, in the 14 chap. 34. may be ſo underſtood, Let your Women keep ſilence in the Churches; not in the Church, as in the 18th. V. but Churches; ſo that they met in more places than one, in Corinth, yet but one Church, 2 Cor. 2.1.
Our laſt Annotator Tranſlate the words foreign, in the 20th. V. for the ſame thing, not the ſame place, and I think his Reaſon is good; and I have wondered that Learned Men ſhould render the words ſo in Acts 2.44. Dr. Lightfoot ſaith the words cannot be ſo rendered, and gives other ſignifications of the words, that they will not prove the Queſtion.
As for the Church in Epheſus, which is another Example brought, Paul continued there three Years, Acts 20.31. The reaſon of his ſtay, a great and eſſectual door is opened, 1 Cor. 16.8, 9. The Word of God grew mightily, Acts 19.20. It grew ſo, that they dare venture to burn the Books that were of Value among the Epheſians, before the face of the People, valued at eight hundred Pounds the leaſt, Acts 19.19. Both Jews and Gentiles came in, Acts 19.10, 17. And how many Chriſtians have we now in Epheſus? ſo many as may meet in one room in a private Diſciples Houſe. Paul's great door, and his word mightily, had better been ſpared, for this is but a diſgrace to the Text.
As for what J…ſtin Martyr writes, that the Chriſtians in the Towns and Villages met on the Sunday. 1. How many were there in the Villages? 2. Had they any Paſtor in the Villages? 3. How far were theſe Villages from the Towns? Juſtin Martyr ſaith nothing to theſe Heads.
Come lower to the Year 252. when the Quarrel was between Cornelius and Novatianus. Cornelius in his Epiſtle to Fabius faith of Novatian…s, He was Ignorant there ought to be but one Biſhop in that Church [of Rome] in which were forty ſix Presbyters, ſeven Deacons, &c.
A little Digreſſion. One Biſhop in Rome. Was not Rome a Metropolis, where the Seat of the Emperor was? but then it ſhould have been Arch-Biſhop; but Cornelius ſaith one Biſhop in that Church [of Rome.] And to this day we call the Pope, the Biſhop of Rome, not Arch-Biſhop of Rome. Simple Biſhop can content Cyprian, Biſhop of Carthage, and Cornelius Biſhop of Rome, which two Cities cauſed bloody Battels, which of them ſhould be the Empreſs of the World. How they then can be eſteem'd Men of Truth, we may eaſily judge, that dare Preach and Print, the ſeven Angels of the ſeven Churches in Aſia were ſeven Arch-Biſhops, when one hundred and ſixty Years after thoſe Churches, there was no Arch-Biſhop in thoſe great Cities.
But to goe on — concerning the Church of Jeruſalem, I Conſent to what he ſaith, and let it ſtand for our Rule to Act by; of it Dr. Owen thus writes, This Church of Jeruſalem, thus called and collected out of the Church of the Jews, was the Rule and Pattern of the Diſpoſing of all the Diſciples of Chriſt into Church Societies, in Obidience to his Command throughout the World, Catechiſ. p. 85. let this ſtand.
How many thouſands of Diſciples did belong to this Church of Jeruſalem, we cannot tell; but this we find, Acts 4.4. there were five thouſand at that time; and Acts 5.14. Multitudes of Men and Women now were added to thoſe five thouſand: In the 6 Act. 7. we read the Number of the Diſciples multiplied in Jeruſalem greatly: I ſuppoſe no Man will ſay theſe were ſuch as we read of 2 Act. 5.9. Strangers; if they were, yet it hurts not me, they were all of this Church; and we know Members of Independent Churches in London lived forty Miles diſtant from them: Here was Prayer, Preaching, Adminiſtration of both Sacraments, Election and Ordination of Officers; Terrible Diſcipline, if I might ſo call it, upon Ananias and Saphira. But was all this in one place? No ſure; when there were but the three thouſand added, they Brake Bread, foreign: Act. 2.46.Beza and Grotius ſpeak fully to my purpoſe as to the diſtinct places; and that by Breaking of Bread the Lords Supper is intended, as in the 42 v. the Salmur Divines, A Lapide, Dr. Hammond, Dr. Owen, Mr. Baxter, and others whom I mention not, do all agree. Nor do I think there is any Man will ſay they did all partake of the Lords Supper in one Houſe, at one time; much leſs then afterwards. Thus was their Preaching, Act. 5.42. foreign.
It is certain then they met in ſeveral diſtinct places, both to Preach and Adminiſter the Sacrament, yet but one Church. How long it was between the day of Pentecoſt and Stephen's Death, I know not; but ſo long thus was their Practice, and had been longer, if that Perſecution had not befallen them.
If then the meeting in one place had been ſo eſſential to a Church as the Dr. makes it, we ſhould have ſeen it here. Surely the Apoſtles, with whom our Lord had been ſpeaking concerning the things pertaining to his Kingdom, 1 Act. 3. ſo lately, would not do any thing contra-eſſential to a Church. Yea, here was matter ready prepared for ſeveral particular Churches, meeting in ſeveral diſtinct places, for Divine Worſhip, had the Lord pleaſed to have declared that it was his Will, that meeting in every ſuch diſtinct place, ſhould make a particular Church, and ſo have given a Pattern, how all particular Churches ſhould be Conſtituted: Here wanted nothing, I ſay, but the Declaration of his Will.
We have heard in the time of our Perſecution, that ſeveral thouſands of the Scots met in one Field, to Adminiſter and partake of the Lords Supper. Tho' it was not a Houſe, it was a Place, yet we do not read that ever the Apoſtles did ſo much as once call all the Church together into one place, to Adminiſter the Lords Supper, that they might leave one Example at leaſt, that in every Church there muſt be but One Table, or one Altar as ſome call it; which they might eaſily have done, had one place in their Judgment [men guided by the Spirit] been ſo eſſential to a Church as ſome make it now.
Many thouſands of particular Churches make up One Body of Chriſt: Why then ſo many particular Congregations [where the Members of one Congregation are known to the others] as there may be Elders ſufficient to carry on all Church-work, may not make one particular Church, I know not. It is certain, that where only one Paſtor, with a Parochial Congregation make a Church, all the Ends of Churches cannot be attained; not only Reaſon, but Experience alſo hath ſufficiently proved it.
Where a Congregation is ſo far remote from others, and ſo poor that it cannot maintain one Paſtor well, ſuch a People muſt do as well as they can; but where Congregations are nearer, tho' they be poor, [as I know ſew that are not] yet they may Coaleſce into one Church, to attain all Church-Ends, ſo far as our Performance of Duties to thoſe Ends may conduce.
Suppoſe there were ſeven Teaching Elders in a particular Church, there is but One of theſe that Pray, Preach, Adminiſter the Sacraments, Order the Singing, at one time, all the reſt put forth no Official Act, but are Attendants, as the Private Brethren. But if theſe ſeven were in ſeven Congregations, every one is at work, performing theſe Acts. As for other Official Acts, as Exerciſe of Diſcipline, Ordination, Election of Officers, &c. they may all meet together, and Act jointly; and thus it was in our Mother Church in Jeruſalem, which is more to me than all that is ſaid for One Place, One Altar, One Biſhop. I cannot call to mind any Church-End, but may be attained as well this way, as if they met in one place alwayes, and better.
FINIS.
End of the text · Giles Firmin, Weighty Questions Discussed (1692)