A Sober Reply to the Sober Answer of Cawdrey, Postscript
A POST-SCRIPT To Reverend Mr. Blake.
MY reply to Mr. Cawdrey was ready for the preſſe within ſeven weeks after his anſwer came out, but by the ill dealing of that Bookeſeller who had my Copy firſt in his hand, it comes to be thus long before it came forth: I heard not of Mr. Blake a long time after he came forth, and have poſſ…ſſ…d his booke no longer then to have but one whole day to review him, and draw up my reply, which I would have done foreign, but that my Bookſeller is unwilling to venture the charges for the printing in theſe dai…s. I have not read ever any more (as yet) then what concerns my ſelfe, and for his courteous handling of me without ſcorne, I kindely thanke him. I have liberty to mention but two or three things, which I ſhall doe with as much brevitie as I can.
1. He obſerves,Page 431. I am diffident rather then conſident of my opinion. Sir, I did write as a man who was troubled about it, my Arguments at preſent caſting the ſcale on the negative ſide, though I had not ſuch downe weight as I deſired: but truly Sir I ſee nothing as yet to ma…e me recall my opinion, for all that is ſaid (excepting Mr. Cawdrey's notion of Adoption in which your ſelfe are not cleare) I knew before.
2. I obſerve ſometimes you dreſſe my Argument with ſuch a faſhion that I cannot know it to be mine, but diſclaime it, then you ſinde fault: p. 439. where have I mentioned the power of godlineſſe as a requiſite in him who claims Baptiſm? but to bring up a child in it is a harder matter: I have not liberty to enlarge.
3. Sometimes your anſwer is a bare laying downe your owne Judgement, with a Similitude added for illuſtration. P. 441. We now c…ll for Scripture and reaſon from thence; Similia at pompam non ad puguam.
4. For my fi…ſt Argument for the negative, p. 449.450. which you ſay was Mr. Blackwoods. I never ſaw any thing of his, but I tooke it from our Brethrens practiſe, and it was that (with one thing more) which led mee into my practiſe: for when I ſaw the Presbyteriall Brethren keep back half or three quarters of their Churches from the Lords Supper, and that for divers years together, yet did ſo conſtantly baptiſe their children, I thought with my ſelfe, where have theſe men a ground for this practiſe? in all the New Teſtament I could not ſinde one, nor reaſon for it, but rather againſt it for the Old Teſtament, though I knew ſome were kept back for Ceremoniall uncleanneſſe from the paſſeover, yet for Moral uncleanneſſe to be kept back many yeers, and ſtill to have their children circumciſed, I found no text for that.
For Mr. Gille…py, I have not liberty to ſet downe my thoughts.
You frame your anſwer by turning my argument another way, then requiring me to give anſwer to your Syllogiſme: which Sir, is no clever way of diſputation; And for anſwer I need give you none,Againſt the Anabap. Argu 5. Mr. Iohnſon before you, and you in his words (though it may be you ſaw him not) have given a full anſwer, yet my Argument is not hurt at all, though the parent may be ſuſpended for a time, what is this to the ſuſpenſion of three parts of a Church, ſix or ten years together, and never proceed furtherr?*Ame Med. Th…el c. 37. th. 22. I would have enlarged if I might.
I obſerved many other things, to which I would have replyed, b…t I ſhall ſingle out onelyonly one thi…g which I will examin.Goular. in 38. Ep. Cypr.
Page 4.26. Infant of Parents that are nomine tenus, Chriſtians have right to Baptiſme. If they profeſſe the worſhip of the true God, though nothing more of a Chriſtion be in them. Page 424.
If by a Chriſtian nomine tenus your m…aning were, one who … but a nominall Chriſtian, as all are who are not reall, I make no queſtion but many ſuch as theſe nominall ones a Miniſter may B priſe, and their children, though they have not truth of grace in them: but I perceive you: ſcope is to ſp…ead the word very large: and that directly oppoſite to my qu…ſtion; If they will ſay they are Chriſtians, bene the Name of Ch…iſt, own his worſhip (though it be but from the cuſtome of the Nation, others do ſo, and ſo do they) though their courſe and frame of converſation be like the infidells, or worſe yet they are Chriſtians nomine …enus, hence we muſt Baptize, if they have but Fides, no ma…ter for Obſervan…a.
But ſir, I pray what if they be hereticall about the na…ures of Ch…iſt a… ſome of old deny the Humanity, ſome the Deity of Chriſt? what if they thinke Chriſt was a Woman (as I have given inſtance) what if they know not whether he was God or Man (as before) what if ten Gods (as before) and abundance of ſuch ſtuffe (all which yet will call themſelves Chriſtians) muſt theſe be Baptized? Theſe are errors in their beliefe.
But let us ſuppoſe they underſtand God and Chriſt, for their Faith they are right, but abominable in their converſation, are we now bound to Baptize becauſe of their Faith?
1. Sir I thought Chriſtianity had taken in the heart, and outward converſ…tion as well as the bead, a …eall Chriſtian is one united to Chriſt, ſound in the Doct…ine concerning Chriſt, and wal…ing as Chriſt did [we ſuppoſe an old Adam]. Let him who is a nominall Chriſtian appeare live one, though he be not real, Mr. Ca will not allow him ſit, if viſib…y he lives like an infidel, though he profeſſe his ſai…h in Chriſt.
2. Let us view the Scriptu…c in the adminiſtration of Baptiſme.
The… Mark 4. Bap…ſme of Repentance; this is more then Faith: they confeſſed their ſins. v. 5. the J…s had not idolls now to confeſſe that ſin,Aug. defid… &… 2 Acts op. c. 8, Doth not the ordinance note repentance alſo?
2 Acts 37.38.
Firſt,Mag leb. cen… 1. li. 1. cap. 10. Jews, ſo had knowledge, … ſo ignorant as ou… … believe.
Secondly, having a legall worke by the power of the Word.
Thirdly, Receiving the Word.
Fourthly, Repenting, they are Baptized, this is more ſtill.
3. Acts, Though there is not mention made of the Samaritans repentance, who were Apoſtatized from the Jews, but laid claime to the Pania…ks, Jo. 4.20. expected Chriſt, v. 25. worſhipped God, Ezva. 4.2. Yet that Philip ſhould know them to be ſo abominable in converſation, and yet Baptize them, that is to be proved, ſince that others required repentance. I believe there was a more then ordinary preſence at that time, to enlighten, ſo to aw their hearts, the ſame anſwer we may give for theſe, that Auguſtin doth for the Eunuch, Bapt…zavit cum Philippus, intelligi voluis impleta omnia, quae licet tacean…r in Scripturis gratia brevitat… …amen ſcrie traditionis ſci…us implenda. Irenaeus and Tertullian have ſaid enough for the Eunuch, beſides Auguſtin, Ubi prius c. 9.and the Text is plaine.
If this be not a giving Holy things to Dogs (which Tertullian and Auguſtine give warning of even in Baptizing) I know not what is: Let a man be a notorious Ranter, Sodomite, Scoffer at Godlineſſe, Drunkard, no matter what this is known and proved, yet a Chriſtian nomine tenus, Therefore you muſt Baptize him.
That Repentance as well as Faith was looked to in Baptizing, it appeares by the ages following the Apoſtles, for thoſe who would live in their luſts, they deferred their …aptiſme, knowing what that required. SoaDe toenit. Tertullian, andbOra. 40. Nazianzen intimate, who exhort them to confeſſion of their ſinne from the example of John. Juſt. Mart. Apol. 2. is cleare for more then you mention.
For the Cate humeni they were ſtrict we ſee, Concil. Neocaſ. Can. 5. Concil. Ni…. Can. 13. Concil Elib. Can. 42. a good converſation they required, thou… for their long deferring I approve not that.
Believer and Saint you ſay are S…nonoma's. Dr. Ames gives the reaſon, which will not help you ſir, Medul. Theo. c. 32.….
For the ill Members in Gorinth and Sardi…. 1. Sir you muſt prove the Apoſtles knew them to be ſuch when they admitted them, and Baptized them, that they wallowed in their filth. 2. That the Churches were not too blame in letting them alone, 3. To have a Name to live, is more then you ſpeake of.
For ignorance, you quote the Hebrews which I thinke hurts not me, that of 1 Cor. 15.34. Is the moſt likely, but ſir do you thinke it was ſuch groſſe ignorance as I have given inſtance? was not Paul as true to his worke as Abraham or the Jews were to be in admitting to circumciſion, which you mention Page 445. I have found ſo much ignorance that the perſons deſerved ſhame, but yet dared not keepe from the Lords Supper, becauſe I found ſuch a worke on the heart, which ſhowed they had the thing, though could not expreſſe the thing in a definition.
For the*Lord. min J… Div. [Page 115. … and others. Gilleſ. Aar. rod. Page 482, 154, 515, 544, 555. To. 4. diſp. 4. q 3 p. 3. Presbyterians they have delivered their mind otherwiſe: the Fathers, Councells, and Schoolemen are of another Opinion, as appeares by Grug. de val. but I quote no more then I have read, I hope then you will pardon me though I differ. For your Anſwers to my Arguments.
Your diſtinction of the word Sains I accept, and doubt not but your eyes are ſo good, that you can ſee a difference betweene a man who is but nomine ten… a Chriſtian and wallowes in his filth, and another, who walkes outwardly like a Saint, though hee have not the reall qualifications of a Saint.
The ſecond Argument muſt coſt you two lines more before it be anſwered.
If a man be but Nomine tenus a Chriſtian, though never ſo abominable in his converſation, yet muſt be admitted a Member, then hee cannot be caſt out of the Church for any vile ſin, ſo long as he is nomine tenus a Chriſtian, he is now as he was when you admitted him.
You ſay the Conſequence is erroneous, becauſe be did not make profeſſion of his ſin, but of his Faith, As Simon Magus.
Then it ſeemes the man muſt profeſſe his ſin with his own mouth, as his Faith, though Mr. Blake knowes he is a Ranter, &c. The Members of the Church witneſſe it, yet becauſe the mans own mouth doth not profeſſe it, you admit him. Then ſir, though you know the ſame abominations afterward, and your Members teſtifie it, witneſſes come in, you muſt not caſt him out unleſſe he will profeſſe it. If Knowledge and Witneſſes will caſt him out (whether his mouth will profeſſe it or no) why will not the ſame keepe him out at firſt? We ſhall never find ſuch … thinke as you ſpeake of, they will give you good words when they come to require Baptiſme, though they will ſweare and be drunk before and after in the ſame day.
For Simon Magus, I have ſpoken to him before,Aar. rod. 482. and Mr. Gilleſpic anſwers for me.
What is that Cenſure you would have paſſed upon a manifeſt oppoſer of Chriſt in his viſible Kingdome? he was no ſubject I ſaid, Therefore not ſit for a Church-member.
But ſir I have not liberty to go further: onelyonly this I muſt adde, I follow this diſpute with much ſadneſſe in reſpect of mine own heart: for your elſe and Mr. Ca. I honour you both, your graces, your abilities I ac…knowledge are before mine, but in this point I muſt ſee more light before … yeild: as for the bond of Unity I hope (by my piece againſt the Separation) you will conceive me to be one who will hold it firme with you, in this Point, I leave you to your own light, and ſhall conclude with the words of Cyprian [though ſome may ſay I am in an errour as he was] Manente concordiae vin…ulo, & perſeverante Catholicae Eccleſiae individu… Sacramento, Ep. 52.actum ſuum disponit & dirigit unuſquiſque Epiſcopus, ra…i…nem prep…fiti ſui Domino redditurus.
FINIS.
To the Reader.
I Had but three houres liberty, and that in the night, to run over my book, and correct it, I did not obſerve many faults which would trouble the ſenſe, thoſe I leave to the Courteous Reader to correct, theſe (among others) I obſerved: Pag. 10. l. 21. r. propriè. l. 22. r. Govenant for Councell. p. 22. …undem. p. 43. for Smith r. ſaith.
End of the text · Giles Firmin, A Sober Reply to the Sober Answer of Cawdrey (1653)