Romes Ruin(1), Answer · Paragraph 15 – Paragraph 16
PARAG. XV. Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records.
CHALLENGE.
If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands (in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them) then do we think the day to be ours. If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points, let them do it; and then, if we doe not disprove them, the day is theirs. And seeing all is brought to this issue, we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point, and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto, we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply, as not direct to our purpose: which is, to find out a true catholike and visible church.
Answer.
To answer you in the doctrinall point, though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands, neither should your faith gain any thing by it, nor ours lose; for the main and leading question between us, is, which church, yours or ours, holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved; and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church, of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly, Deum non potest habere patrem, qui ecclesiā non habet matrem, he cannot have God for his father, who hath not the church for his mother; these are quaestiones de fide, in a different degree: now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories, as Ballarmin rightly deduceth; for humane Bellar. lib 2. de sacra…. cap. 21.stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam, cui falsum subesse potest, that is, make or beget an humane faith, or rather credulity subject to errour, not a divine and infallible beleef, that must be built upon surer ground. Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie, and as universally spread as the Arrian, or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian, this would not win you the day; did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility, but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church; yet such a proof being meet humane, would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon: on the contrary, if we can prove evidently by the written word of God, that our faith, & not yours, is that precious faith once given to the saints, and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists, and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times, we need not alledge any stories or records for the continuance of our church; for we have Gods promise in the old, and Christs in the new, that the church professing entirely that faith grounded on Gods word, shall continue to the end. And the redeemer shall come to Sion: as for me this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord, I…. 59. 20, 21.my words, which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever. And this is the word of faith which we preach. And behold I am with you unto the end of the world. Wherefore Rom. 10. 8.since all in the end must be brought to this issue, whether our Deut. 13, 14.church or yours hath kept safe the most precious depositum of the apostolike faith; we wish your learned to encounter us principally in this point, not but that we will be ready to answer you in all other points whatsoever, but because it is to small purpose to contend meerly about the out-works, and leave the main forts and castle untouched. As for your challenging words (If, &c.) I return them upon your self, because you speak of all points, I say, if you can name any that professed the present Romish doctrin in all points within 1000. yeers after Christ, let them do it; then, if we do not disprove them, the day is theirs: and for the most points of greatest moment, shew me any for 600. yeers, and let the day be yours, Hic rodus hic saltus; as for us we are in no danger of your (if, &c.) for we say it is needlesse to name any such who in all points taught our doctrin; it is sufficient to produce some eminent persons in all ages who endeavoured to stop the inundation of your Romish errours and superstitions, as it continually brake into the church, especially if they held no substantiall doctrin of faith contrary to that which we now beleeve and teach; besides these eminent persons and standard-bearers of the Gospel, we doubt not but there were many thousands others, both in your Romish church, and else-where, who never bowed the knee to B…l, nor received any …rk of the beast. At this last answer of some of our men you …ibble, saying.
PAR. XVI. Of making open profession of faith in time of persecution.
CHALLENGE.
Rediculous it is to answer hereunto, as some do, that there were true beleeving protestants when Luther began, but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith; this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all, but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold, Christ saying of such, He that denyeth me before men, I will deny him before my father in heaven.
Answer.
Bellarmin upon the by acknowledgeth that the Hussites and Waldenses continued till Luthers time, who (as appeareth by the rubricks of your own stories) signed the faith we now professe, not Bellar. de S…. lib. 2.only with ink, but with bloud; which hath proved so fruitfull seed of the church, that if the harvest of the next century be answerable to the last, you will be constrained to blot catholike out of the title of your church, and leave only Roman. Besides many noble standard-bearers of the protestant religion, who bad defiance to the whore of Babylon, we say, (and disprove it if you can) that there were many thousands who refused her cup of abhominations, and (in private) detested her fornications, howsoever they made no open profession of the faith; neither will it hence follow that they were hypocrites; this is too hard and uncharitable a censure. Nicodemus was no hypocrite, though he came to Jesus but by night, and (as it were) by stealth. Nor Ioseph of Arimathea, though he made no open shew of his love to Christ till after his death; much lesse were the Disciples hypocrites, who according to Christs commandement fled from citie to citie, and sought by all means to keep o…t of the eye and walk of their persecutors; what publike or open profession of the christian faith made those saints, S. Paul and S. Helary speak of, who lived and dyed in deserts, and hid themselvs in caves and dens of the earth? It is the judgement of some of your divines, that in the dreadfull and dismall persecution of antichrist, the Pope himself shall professe his faith in secret. If to make no open profession of faith is to be a Suarez, lib. 5. cont sect. Ang.luke-warm hypocrite, what hypocrites shall the Romish priests be, who shall not dare openly to celebrate masse in the great persecution of antichrist toward the end of the world, as your Rhemists and Tapperus imply? You your self and those of your religion, especially Tapper. artic. 16. de Sacrif. M…ss…. R…em. Annot. in A…. 12. 6.priests and Jesuits, make no open profession of your faith here in England, yet you would not be thought to be hypocrites. Be not too rash in your censures, lest you slander your own mothers children. Those God threatneth to spew out of his mouth who are neither hot nor cold, that is, those who have no zeal of Gods truth burning in their hearts; those deny Christ before men, who being called to make a goodprofession, as Christ did before Pontius Pilate, either directly or indirectly deny the faith, as your Jesuited equivocators do renounce their priesthood & calling; such as deny Christ in this sort, we deny them, protesting against such protestants, who are nothing lesse then what they are named.