Romes Ruin(1), Answer · Paragraph 10 – Paragraph 11
PARAGRAPH. X. Touching the 4. note of the church, viz. unity.
CHALLENGE.
Teaching the same unchanged doctrin in all points of faith.
Answer.
To help out your former argument drawn from the note, succession, you add another note (as you make it) the note of unity and consent in doctrin, at least, in all substantiall points of faith: against which I except; first, that it is no proper mark of the Church: secondly, that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church. Although nothing better becommeth the church of God, than to be at unity in it self; yet certain it is, that both …nity may be without the true church, and even in the purest times the true church was without unity. The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissention among the good wheat in the field of the church, that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicitie of sects among them. On the contrary, as the poet said, magna inter molles concordia, so we Iuvenal. Sat. 2. Psal. 2. 2.may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel, conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed. The Sadduces might, the Nestorians may, the Arrians did brag of their consent in matter of faith. Who art thou (saith the Arrian Emperour to Liberius then orthodox) who troublest the peace of the whole world? Will you hence argue that the Arrians were orthodox, or the Nestorians Catholikes, or the Sadduces right beleevers? Did you never read in S. Hilary, the ministers of antichrist are … to … Hilar. Cont. Auxen. ministri antichristi de impictatis suae unitate jactare solent, agentes se non ut christi episcopos sed ut antichristi sacerdotes.of their unity in their impiety? if you ever read it, could you choose but reflect upon your self? as for us, though we desire nothing more than that we may think one thing: and that, as we all agree in the love of truth, so we might all professe that truth in love; yet when piety and unity, truth and concord are divided, we say with Nazianzen, a godly discord is better than an ungodly concord; it is better to dissent for truth, than consent in errour. Here if you reply, that you argue not barely from consent, but from consent in the truth, you fall again to your begging trade: you suppose that which is the main point in question and bears all before Nazian. Iren. foreign.it; prove your doctrine to be the truth of God, and take all. A man would think that there should not be heard so much as the noyse of an hāmer among your workmen who stand so much for unity. If there should be differences even in matter of saith necessary to salvation among us, as there are not, our controversies are de fimbriis, non de textu, of the lace and fringe of ceremonies, not of the queens vesture of gold wrought about with divers colours: I say, if Psal. 45. 13.there were differences amongst us in substantiall points of faith, this could be no strong argument against us who make not unitie an inseparable note of the true church; but it utterly overthrows your church in your own judgment, who determine peremptorily, that where there is not unity, there is no true church; but I assume, there is not unity in doctrin of faith amongst you, therefore out of your own mouth I conclude you have no true church, Although, like Samsons soxes, you are all tyed by the tayl, that is, the conclusions de fide set down by your false prophet teaching lyes (whom the prophet Esay warranteth us to call the tayl;) yet your heads are as far asunder as may be, and you draw almost in every controversie of faith contrary ways; casuist against ca… ist, and canonist against canonist, and canonist against casuist, Dominicans against Franciscans, and Sorbonists against Dominicam, and Jesuits against all. Neither are these quarrels, foreign; but as Hercules his controversies was with Antens, foreign, about Scripture the rule of faith, and Popes and councels the judges of faith, and regenerating grace the cause of faith, and justification the effect of faith, and the sacraments the symbols of faith. Your controversies are sharp and poinant, and your differences irreconcilable; you are at odds.
1. Concerning scripture. Some of you hold, that the Jews have corrupted the originall of the old Testament, as Iacobus episcop. Christop. and Canus; and others deny it, as Driedo and Dried. l. 2 … eccl. d…g…. Bellar l. 2. d… ver. Des. c. 2.Bellarmine. Some of you hold, that the originall text of Greek and Hebrew are authenticall, and that by them all translations are to be examined. Others, according to the strict letter of the Trent-canon, hold the vulgar latin absolutely authenticall, insomuch that no man, quovis praeiextu, upon any pretence whatsoever, Caittan. Hugo: Abulens & alii.may reject it. Some among you hold the books known by the name Apocrypha not to be of equall authoritie with the canonicall scriptures, nor to be produced to ground any article of faith upon them. Others, carried away with the Trent-stream, admit Vasquez. de Ador O…dcor… in exam.those apocryphall writings into the canon of scripture given by divine inspiration.
2. Concerning the Decalogue. Some of you teach, that we are commanded to worship God, even in the devill himself; others Vasquez. Cathar.disclaim this strange doctrin. Some of you teach, that the commandement, non facies sculptile, is not morall, nor bindeth christians, but part of the ceremoniall law and positive appertaining to Jewes onelyonly; others defend the contrary with us. Some See Bellar l. 2. de Imag. cap. 7.of you teach, that images are not to be worshipped in themselvs, or properly, but only, ratione prototyps, in regard of the thing which they represent: others defend, that the image is to be worshipped, in, and for it self, and not only in regard of the thing which it representeth. Bellar. l 2. de Imag cap. 21.Nay, some blush not to maintain, that the image is to be worshipped, eodem cultus genere, quo prototypon; that is, that Aquin, 3. part Quest. 25. Ca…etan. Ponavent: Almayn: Marsilius, Carthus. & alii 3. sen…distin 9.the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we worship Christ, to wit, cultu latria: that the image of the blessed Virgin is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we ought to worship the Virgin her self, to wit, cultu hyperdouliae: that the images of saints are to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith the saints themselvs are to be worshipped, to wit, cultu doulia. Some hold all equivocation before a magistrate to be unlawfull, and forbidden in the See the w… tings of english Se…. priests against Iesuites. Parsons Trea…. of aquiv. Garnet.commandement, non dices falsum, as being no better (in plain english) than a lye. Others allow equivocation in divers cases.
3. Concerning the blessed virgin. Some earrestly maintain, that she was conceived in sin, as all the children of Adam are, Christ only excepted: others, with as much vehe…cie both maintain the doctrin, and celebrate the …ea… of her i…culane …onception; and though Sixtus the 4. took part with the Franc… A…varez lib de Auxil. grat. & al… Dominic. Bellar. & alii Iesuit.yet cardinall de Turre-Cremata writes for the D….
Mulciber in Trojam, pr… …r…ja staba… Ap…ll….
4. Touching the grace of regeneration, and the …p…ration thereof in our conversion. Some teach, that it worketh physicè, and determineth the will; others teach, that it worketh onelyonly … liter, standing (as it were) at the devotion of the will, to admit of it, or refuse it; to be converted by it, or not.
5. Touching justification. Som teach, that we are not justified by our inherent righteousnesse, as Pighius, and o…he…s cited out of Vega; others follow the common tenet, affirming that the righteousnesse, by which we are justified before God is not Christs imputed, but out inherent righteousnesse.Catharinus lib do matrimonio. Bellar. & papistae communiter Vasquez. Dominicus Soto Gerson. Tract. de vit. Spiralmayn. Tr. 3. Roffen in Ref. 32, Artic. Luth citat. ex Bellar. lib. 1. de amiss. grat. & stat. pec. Lombardus. Suarez. Fisher. Corne…. a …ap. in Esa 7. per verba consecrationis vere & realiter generatur Christus. …llar, recognit. op. Gratian, de consecrat, dist,
6. Touching certainty of salvation. The learned know; C… rinus hath written in this point agreeable to the doctrine of the reformed churches; as also how Dominious S… impug…eth his opinion.
7. Touching marriage. Some hold it lawfull for the innoce…t partie to marry after divorce for adultery: others hold it utterly unl…wfull.
8. Touching merit of works. Some hold, that the work… of a man in the state of grace merit ex condigno, ratione operis eternall life; others ex congruo onelyonly: and some utterly exclude all merit as they are cited out of Vega.
9. Touching sinns. Some teach, that all sins in their own nature are mortall; others are for the schools distinction of v…iall and mortall sinns.
10. Touching the sacrament of the Lords supper. Some teach, that the body of Christ is made of the bread, and allow of a kind of production in transubstantiation; others defend transubstantiation by way of adduction not production. Secondly, so…e reach that the body of Christ is in very deed and sensually handled and broken in the priests hands and ground and chewed with the teeth of the faithfull, as the form of subscription enjo…ned to Berengarius by pope Nicholas, extant in the canon law, implyeth; others like not of this grosse manner of eatin… ▪ and for Nicholas his words, they put a colourable glosse upon them. Some hold, that mice may eat the body of Christ, others doubt of it, and others deny Bellar. de Sacramen. Euchar. Cautel. Miss, si mus comederit, &c. Lombard. quid ergomus comedit? Deus novit. Innocentius 10 Catharinus. Alsons…a Castro Adrian. in senten. Bellar de Rom. Pontif. Bellar de Rom. Pont. & Apol. cont. Barcl. Hart. Barcl. de potest. pap. in temporal. Widdringtonu's Serbonist… communiter. Iesuitae communiter.it. Some hold the consecration to be made by these words, Hoc est corpus meum; others are of another mind.
11. Touching the pope. Some teach, that he may err, as pope, and in cathedra; others will by no means grant, that the pope sitting in his chair, may be ever beside the cushion. Some teach that the pope hath power to depose kings, and dispose of their kingdoms; others can find no ground at all in scripture, or reason, for this temporall power of the pope.
12. Touching co…cel…. Some hold, that the councell is above the pope; others, that the pope is above the generall councell, and both sides bring into the field, pares aquilas, & pila minantia pilis; pope against pope, and councell against councell; nay councell and pope against councell and pope; and here you are at your wits end.
These, and such like controversies, nay speculations of far lesse moment are matters of faith when we differ from you, or among our selvs, about them. Forsooth, your determination maketh matter of faith be the question never so flight or curious; your suspence makes it a neutrall point, be the matter never so expedient for resolution. Nor in points resolved by the church can the generall submission of the popes subjects be accounted union, when as it is constrained by the strong hand of authority suppressing all contradiction rather than proceeding from any voluntary Concil. Constant. Concil. Lateran. …. … sub Mart… quinto sess. 5. Gene…ale … a Christ… …, cui quilibet cu… status vel▪ dignitatis, etiam si pa…alis existat, obedire t…tur, Contra concil. Lateran. sub …. …ess. 11. sol…m Romanum … omnia …lia auctoritatem baben…, …, … & potestatem …, …. Vide I… ▪ …and free consent of judgements, as appeareth by your clipping the tongues of Stella, Ferus. an… very many other of your own authors, when they speak any thing of your errours or corruptions.
PAR. XI. That the notes above-named are not found in the Roman church.
CHALLENGE.
All which going together, and being onelyonly found in her, and not in another church, do evidently prove that she alone is truly Apostolicall, and consequently out of her there neither is, nor can be salvation.
Answer.
When Phasis (in Martial) being but a peasant, put himself into, a rich sute of apparell, and, having the garb of a gentleman, thrust himself amongst the gentlemen into the theater, and there fell a commending the new edict of the Emperour touching the placing of all sorts of citizens according to their ranks, saying, tandem commodius licet sedere, nunc est reddita dignitas equestris, &c, Now we may sit without trouble: now the gentry have recovered their right. Before he had ended his speech, in comes Lectius, the Emperours officer to execute the edict; and by vertue of that edict, which Phasis was so highly extolling, turns him out of his seat, as not due to him by any title or colour, save of his purple coat.
Istas purpureas, & arroga…tes,M… Epi…am.
Jussit surgere Lectius la…ernas.
Whether Phasis his case and yours are not alike, let those judge who dare look upon truth without such false spectacles as you p… upon the noses of those whom you nuzell in superstition. You set forth visibility and universality, and unity and succession in golden and glorious colours, as the proper marks of Christs true church; by which marks and notes you are discovered to be none of the t…e church, sorex suo indicio. For (as hath in part already, and shall hereafter be shewed more at large, if either your cause or heart will bear a second encounter) popery was not visible till many hundred years after Christ, when the man of sin began to be revealed: universall popery was never at unity with it self, it is not at this day; and for the succeeding of Roman bishops, it hath been such, both in regard of the violent, fraudulent, symoniacall and schismaticall manner thereof, as also in regard of the persons succeeding in that see, who have been branded with the foul marks of i…cest, and the sin not to be named, and the black and hellish marks of schism, heresie, atheism, and necromancy; that, if there could be a succession in hell, it could not be imagined to be worse.