The Reflecters Defense of His Letter to a Friend, Dialogue 4
The Fourth Dialogue.
I. S.
YOU Proteſtants give us only a general Latitudinarian Rule, common to all the Hereſies in the World. L. p. 25.
C.
Scripture is our Rule, and it is and ought to be the common Rule to All, even to Hereticks, though they miſerably abuſe it, and though I could tell you too of Hereticks that truſted more to your Rule than to ours. A p. 27.
I. S.
Pray, Sir, uſe my words; I ſaid a common Rule to them and you. R. p. 71.
C.
Your words were no more, but common to all the Hereſies in the World. Indeed for Hereſies I ſaid Hereticks, becauſe though Scripture ought to be a Rule to Heretioks, whereby they may correct their Errors; yet ſounds it ill to ſay, as you do, that it is a Rule to all the Hereſies or Errors in the World. But let it be (as you will have it) common to Hereticks and Ʋs. I begin to hope by this, that you count Ʋs no Hereticks.
I. S.
Can that be truly a Rule, which they direct themſelves by, and yet warp into Error? Ib.
C.
It may be truly a Rule, yea and the only true Rule of Faith, though they who pretend to direct themſelves by it, err. And they warp into Error, whilſt, pretending to be directed by it, they direct themſelves too much, and are not directed by it alone.
I. S.
The Socinians will ſay the ſame of you. Ib.
C.
I can eaſily believe they may. But truth depends not on this or that man's ſaying this or that.
I. S.
How then ſhall this Quarrel be decided? Ib.
C.
If no way now, yet by Him who gave the Rule, and will at laſt judge us according to it. In the mean time, the Church has done what it could to decide it, and hath given it for us.
I. S.
How can an indifferent man, ſeeking for Faith by your Rule, be ſatisfied they abuſe it more than you? Ib.
C.
By impartially conſidering the Rule, and comparing the Doctrines with it.
I. S.
'Tis manifeſt you diſagree in the ſenſe of Scripture. R. p. 70.
C.
Suppoſe we do.
I. S.
What's the Way to arrive at the ſenſe of it? Ib.
C.
Humble and diligent attendance to it in the uſe of all good helps we can.
I. S.
Certainly the interpreting it. Ib.
C.
Interpreting is the ſearching for, and conjecturing at the ſonſe of it by thoſe helps.
I. S.
Interpretation is Giving or Aſſigning to Words their ſenſe. R. p. 71.
C.
Words had their ſignification given them in their firſt invention, and admit of alterations by uſe and cuſtom. No Interpreter gives the Words their ſenſe, but ſearcheth to find it out, and declareth what he finds.
I. S.
Do not you accept that ſenſe of Scripture which your private Judgment conceives to be truly the meaning, and they in like manner, as they apprehend it ought to be interpreted? Ib.
C.
What they do, I know not. We having conſider'd well of all things which we know of to be conſider'd, muſt needs accept of the meaning which we judge to be true. And truly whatever a man may be ſaid to accept, I think no man can believe what himſelf judgeth not to be true.
I. S.
Is it not ſome clearer Light in you, muſt juſtifie you for judging them to be miſerable Abuſers of Scripture. Ib.
C.
We uſurp not to our ſelves a Pretorian power of judging others, and therefore need nothing to juſtifie us for doing what we do not. That we ſay is this, that Hereticks, whoever are ſo, going about to ſupport their Errors by the Scripture, do abuſe it. All the Judgment we challenge touching Hereticks in particular, is no more but a Judgment of Diſcretion, to diſcern for our ſelves by the beſt means we can uſe, whoſe Doctrine is true, whoſe falſe, that we may know which to chuſe, and which to avoid. This we muſt do by the beſt Light that God hath given us, and by the ſame Light whereby we think our own Doctrine true, we muſt needs think theirs falſe; and as long as we do ſo, ſhun it. Which of us judgeth truly, we leave to the Judgment of God.
I. S.
Your own Interpretation of it is, beyond all Evaſion, that which differences you from them, and ſo 'tis your peculiar or ſpecifick Rule of Faith. R. p. 72.
C.
It differences us from them, but not our Rule of Faith from theirs, if theirs be Scripture: neither is it our Rule of Faith at all, but our Act about it.
I. S.
Do they who abuſe it, do it out of Wilfulneſs? Ib.
C.
I prefume not to know.
I. S.
Do they uſe their endeavoar to underſtand it? Ib.
C.
Neither know I that.
I. S.
The fault conſiſts in pitching upon that for their Rule, which is indeed no Rule at all. R. p. 73.
C.
That follows not, a thouſand things may occaſion a miſinterpretation of the true Rule by ſome, thô neither you nor I can certainly ſay this or that was it.
I. S.
Your Rule miraculouſly makes Light and Darkneſs conſiſtent, Chriſt and Belial very good friends. L p. 25.
C.
God give you repentance of this Blaſphemy. A. p. 28.
I. S.
Your Rule equally patronizing true Faith and Hereſie, I had reaſon to affirm, that it inferred thoſe blaſphemous Propoſitions. Ib.
C.
If you will thus add Blaſphemy to Blaſphemy, I cannot help it. Doth the Scripture indeed patronize Truth and Hereſie, or can it do both? This alone you know is our Rule.
I. S.
This being my Charge, it was manifeſtly your Duty to ſhew it does not, and that only true Faith can be grounded on Scripture privately interpreted. Ib.
C.
You charge deſperately, and it concerns you to make good your charge, or to retreat betimes. Scripture is the Word of God, on which no Error can be grounded, howſoever it be interpreted. If men will make their own Interpretation the ground, Error enough may indeed be built on that, but none on Scripture. This is (as your ſelf) ſay, the Generical Rule we give. And this you ſay again is common to all Hereſies, that is, patroniteth true Faith and Hereſie, reconcileth Christ and Belial. I wiſh you may well diſcharge your ſelf of all this. It concerns you not a little.
I. S.
I only mention the Blaſphemy, while I am charging you with it. R. p. 74.
C.
That ſhuffling will not ſerve your turn, when you are charged with blaſphemous words, firſt to acknowledge them to be blaſphemous, next to ſay, you were charging us with the blaſphemy, who never utter'd any thing like it, neither gave you the leaſt occaſion to utter it.
I. S.
The Difference conſtituting your Proteſtant Rule, as diſtinguiſh'd from that of moſt abominable Hereticks, can only be [as my own Judgment▪ or others of my ſide, thus or thus interpret the Letter of Scripture] and wriggle which way you will, there it will and muſt end at laſt. L. p. 26.
C.
Who can expect loſs, but that where men pretend to Infallibility, they ſhould alſo pretend to know what is our Rule better than we our ſelves, poor fallible creatures do? A. p. 28.
I. S.
We take it as ill of you, that you will have us believe you before our own evident Reaſon. R. p. 74.
C.
I believe you.
I. S.
You aſſure us plain Scripture is your Rule, that is, (as appears by your Diſcourſe) as you are ſuch a kind of Proteſtant. Ib.
C.
As I am a Proteſtant, and a Member of the Church of England.
I. S.
Plain, in what Points. R.p. 75.
C.
In all Points neceſſary to Salvation.
I. S.
To whom? Ib.
C.
To all that are capable of underſtanding plain words and ſenſe.
I. S.
By what kind of light? Ib.
C.
By the ſame whereby other Books are plain, as far as concerns the Literal ſenſe of the words and ſentences.
I. S.
Experience tells us, That Scripture is not plain, even in the highest Points of Faith, ſince many follow it, and yet go aſtray. Ib.
C.
They go aſtray, not by following it, but by endeavouring to make it follow them.
I. S.
If it be ſo plain, all your uſeful helps are needleſs. Ib.
C.
How plain do you mean? Thô a Child's Leſſon be plain, yet needs he uſeful helps to learn it.
I. S.
Scripture conceiv'd by you to be plain, can never be made out by you to be abſolutely certain. Ib.
C.
It is enough for us to be morally certain of plain Scripture.
I. S.
Socinians proceed upon Scripture, plain to them, as their Rule, and yet err. Ib.
C.
'Tis plain they err, by not adhering to plain Scripture, but to their own natural Reaſon, wherewith they uſe all their Art to make the Scripture agree, contrary to the moſt plain and obvious ſenſe of the words. The Interpretation of Scripture by any Sect of People, Romaniſts or others, is extrinſecal to the Rule, and no conſtitutive difference of it, as you imagine. A. p. 28.
I. S.
Still Scripture as interpretable by your ſelves is your particular Rule, and not extrinſecal to it. Ib.
C.
Scripture as interpretable is not extrinſecal to our Rule, but is indeed our Rule; yet is the interpretation of it extrinſecal to it, which is that I ſaid.
I. S.
'Tis your own Interpretation we ſaid was your Rule. Ib.
C.
We ſay 'tis not, and (according to you) it cannot be, who ſay that Scripture as interpretable is our Rule. I hope the interpretation of a thing, and the thing interpretable are not one.
I. S.
Is not the Senſe of Scripture your Faith? R. 76.
C.
It is materially, that which we believe.
I. S.
Is not that eſſentially your particular Rule of Faith, that gives you your particular Faith? Ib.
C.
What's all this Cloud of Words for? We have no particular Rule or Faith objectively taken, but that which was ordain'd of God for the common Rule and Faith of all Chriſtians.
I. S.
Muſt I mind you again, that it is the very eſſence (as I may ſay) or nature of Interpretation to give you the ſenſe of the words of Scripture, which in our caſe is your Faith. Ib.
C.
You may ſay as you pleaſe, ſo you ſpeak to be underſtood. But that's not always your deſign, elſe would you ſpeak a little plainer. How often muſt I mind you, That the Scripture alone is our Rule, by underſtanding whereof we learn what to believe. The Interpretation of it (the eſſence whereof you talk of) is our ſearching for, and diſcovering of the ſenſe, and ſo our Learning to underſtand it, and not our Rule.
I. S.
Venture boldly to declare what is your particular Rule.
C.
Our Rule in General is the Word of God; in particular (if you will needs have it ſo) and in contradiſtinction to your Rule of Scripture and Tradition, or Tradition only, 'tis the ſame Word written, or the Scripture only. And as differenced from both Romaniſts and other Hereticks and Sectaries, it is the ſame Scripture ſtill, plainly delivering a ſenſe own'd and declared by the Primitive Church of Chriſt in the Three Creeds, Four first General Councils, and Harmony of the Fathers. A. p. 28.
I. S.
Since Differences uſe to be Eſſential, whether are theſe words [own'd and declared, &c.] at all eſſential or not? Ib.
C.
To our Rule I ſuppoſe you mean. I ſay they are not: and ſo you have loſt a ſine Diſcourſe, p. 77, 78.
I. S.
If not, ſince, if you be orthodox, you ought to have a Rule eſſentially diſtinct from that of Hereticks and Sectaries, what is this Eſſential different Rule of your's. R. p. 76.
C.
I know no ſuch thing, as that the Orthodox and Hereticks ought to have ſeveral Rules eſſentially, as you ſay, diſtinct. Theſe may differ each from other in their Faith, and yet not in the Rule, thô in the interpreting of it they do.
Thus have I endeavour'd (notwithſtanding the many Squibs you have thrown in the way to ſcare or vex me) to trace you ſtep by ſtep, where-ever I could diſcern the leaſt colour of Reaſon. And yet I confeſs is the far greater part of your long Letter unanſwer'd, and muſt be ſo for me. For ſhould I follow your frisking and playſome Fancy over hedges, and through puddles, as ſhe would lead me, I ſhould too well deſerve the Character of an everlaſting Trifler, for running after Butterflies, which you have ſo friendly beſtow'd on,
Sir, Your Servant.
FINIS.
End of the text · Clement Ellis, The Reflecters Defense of His Letter to a Friend (1688)