The Novelty of Popery Opposed to the Antiquity of True Christianity, Book 7 · Controversy 1 · Chapter 3
CHAP. 3. The opinion of the Fathers upon this point.
IT was a received opinion among many of the Elders, that the ſouls of the Saints do not yet enjoy the ſight of God, and ſhall not be put in poſſeſſion of the heavenly glory before the day of the reſurrection. They that hold that opinion, hold by conſequent, that the ſouls of the Saints know not all the things that are done in the world, and know not the hearts of men, ſince the reaſon why the Roman Church and M. du Perron after others, hold that the Saints know our hearts, and hear our prayers, is, that they enjoy the glory of God.
Tertullian in ch. 55. of the book of the Soul, delivers thus his opinion;(a)Conſtituimus omnem animam apud inſeros ſequeſtrari in diem Domini. We hold for certain, that every ſoul is ſet apart in hell untill the day of the Lord. Irenaeus ſaith the ſame in the fifth book, where ſpeaking of the Paradiſe where God had placed Adam, he ſaith that(b)Plantavit Deus Paradiſum in Eden contra Orientem, & poſuit ibi hominem quem plaſmavit, &c. Qua propter dicunt Preſbyteri qui ſunt Apoſtolorum diſcipuli eos qui tranſlati ſunt illuc tranſlatos eſſe, &c. the Antients which were Diſciples of the Apoſtles ſay that they that were tranſported hence, have been tranſported to that place, and that it is the Paradiſe prepared to the righteous, where St. Paul being carried up, heard unſpeakable words.
The ſame Irenaeus in the end of the fifth book rebuketh ſeverely thoſe that ſay that the ſouls departing from the bodies, go up to heaven,(c)Quomodo non confundentur qui dicunt interiorem hominem ipſorum derelinquentem hîc corpus inſuper coeleſtem aſcendere locum? Cum enim Dominus in medio umbrae mortis abierit, ubi animae mortuorum erant, &c. Manifeſtum eſt quia & diſcipulorum ejus propter quos & haec operatus eſt Dominus, animae abibunt in inviſibilem locum definitum ipſis à Deo, & ibi uſque ad reſurrectionem commorabuntur, &c. ſic venient ad conſpectum Dei. How ſhall they not be confounded (ſaith he) that ſay that the inward man leaving this body, goeth to a place above heaven? For ſeeing that the Lord is gone in the midſt of the ſhadow of death, where the ſouls of the dead were, and after that did bodily riſe again, and was lift up after his reſurrection, it is an evident thing that the ſouls of his Diſciples, for whom the Lord hath done theſe things, ſhall go into an inviſible place which hath been aſſigned unto them of God, and there ſhall wait till the reſurrection, &c. and ſo ſhall come to the ſight of God.
Origen in the book of principles, chap. 12.(d)Puto quod ſancti quique diſcedentes de hac vita permaneant in loco aliquo, & (ut ita dixerim) auditorio. I hold that all the Saints going out of this life remain in ſome place in the earth, which the holy Scripture calls Paradiſe, as in a certain place of inſtruction, and as it were in an auditory.
And upon chap. 7. of Leviticus, (e)Nondum ſancti receperunt laetitiam ſuam.The Saints have not yet received their joy.
Ambroſe in the ſecond book of Cain and Abel, chap. 2.(f)Solviturà corpore anima, & poſt finem vitae hujus adhuc tamen futuri judicii ambiguo ſuſpenditur. The ſoul is looſed from the body; and yet after the end of this life it is in ſuſpence about the ambiguity of the judgement to come.
The Author of the queſtions to the Orthodox aſcribed to Juſtin Martyr, qu. 60.(g)foreign. The retribution of things done in this life, is not done before the reſurrection.
Lactantius book 7. ch. 21.(h)Omnes in una communi cuſtodia detinentur, donec tempus adveniat, quo maximus Judex meritorum faciat examen. All the ſouls are detained in a common priſon till the time come, that the great Judge examine what they have deſerved.
Novatianus in chap. 1. of the book of the Trinity,(i)Quae infra terram jacent, neque ipſa ſunt digeſtis & ordinatis poteſtatibus vacua. Locus enim eſt quo piorum animae impiorumque ducuntur, futuri judicii praejudicia ſentientes. The things that are under the earth, are not deſtitute of powers digeſted in order; For it is the place whither the ſouls both of godly and ungodly are brought, feeling already the foretaſts of the laſt judgement.
Hilarius upon Pſal. 138.(k)Humanae iſta Lex neceſſitatis eſt, ut ſepultis corporibus animae ad inferos deſcendant, quam deſcenſionem Dominus ad conſummationem veri hominis non recuſavit. It is the Law of neceſſity unto which man is ſubject, that when the bodies are buried, the ſouls deſcend into hell, which deſcent Chriſt himſelf did not refuſe for the conſummation of a true man. And upon Pſal. 120. he ſaith that all the faithfull coming out of the body, are placed in Abrahams boſom, quouſque introeundi rurſum in regnum coelorum tempus adveniat, till the time come of entring again into the kingdom of God.
The ſacred Poet Prudentius, towards the end of the hymne(l)Gremio ſenis abdita ſancti, recubabit ut illa Lazari, &c. Patet ecce fidelibus ampli. Via lucida jam paradiſi. Licet & nemus illud adire. Homini quod ademerat anguis. upon the obſequies of the dead, puts the ſouls of the faithfull in Abrahams boſome, which he placeth in the earthly Paradiſe, whence Adam was expelled.
Victorinus Martyr upon Rev. 6. where the ſouls of Martyrs are ſet under the Altar, expounds theſe words ſub ara, id eſt, ſub terra, under the Altar, that is, under the earth.
Almoſt all the Greek Fathers are of the ſame opinion, and ſo was Pope John the XXII. as Gerſon witneſſeth in the Sermon of the Paſſeover: And Ockham in the work of ninety dayes: And Villanus in the tenth book of his hiſtory. And Eraſmus in his preface upon the fifth book of Irenaeus.
Bernard himſelf, though much poſteriour in time to the forealledged Fathers, was of that opinion. In the third Sermon upon All-Saints-day, he puts three ſeveral habitations of ſouls, The (m)Primum in tabernaculis ſecundum in atriis tertium in domo Dei.firſt in Tabernacles, [meaning the bodies] the ſecond in Courts, [meaning receptacles where the ſouls are ſhut up] the third in Gods houſe. And a little after(n)In illam beatiſſimam domum nec ſine nobis intrabant nec ſine corporibus ſuis, id eſt, nec ſancti ſine plebe, nec ſpiritus ſine carne. The Saints ſhall enter neither without us, nor without their bodies into that moſt bleſſed houſe; that is, neither the Saints without the common people, nor the ſoul without the body.
Chryſoſtom and Auſtin are ambiguous upon this matter, and ſpeak not alwayes in the ſame manner. You ſhall find ſome places in thoſe Fathers that ſpeak of the ſouls of the godly, of Martyrs eſpecially, as enjoying already the ſight of God, and heavenly glory: But in other places they will affirm the contrary. Chryſoſtome in the twenty eighth Homily upon the Epiſtle to the Hebrews, ſaith that Abel and Noah have not yet received their Crowns.(o)foreign; What ſhall then Abel do, who hath overcome the firſt of all, who is ſitting without a crown? What ſhall Noah do? &c. And in the thirty ninth Homily upon the firſt Epiſtle to the Corinthians,(p)foreign. Although the ſoul remain, although it be a thouſand times immortal, as indeed it is; it ſhall not receive without the fleſh thoſe unſpeakable goods, as alſo it ſhall ſuffer no puniſhment.
Auſtin in his Manual to Laurentius chap. 109.(q)Tempus quod inter hominis mortem & ultimam reſurrectionem interpoſitum eſt, animas abditis receptaculis continet, ſicut unaquaeque digna eſt vel requie vel aerumna. The interval of time between a mans death and the laſt reſurrection, contains the ſouls in hidden receptacles, as every one of them is worthy either of reſt or diſreſt. And upon Pſal. 36.(r)Poſt iſtam vitam parvam nondum eris ubi erunt ſancti quibus dicetur, Venite benedicti patris moi, percipite regnum quod vobis paratum eſt ab initio mundi. After this ſhort life, thou ſhalt not be yet where the Saints ſhall be, &c. Thou ſhalt not be there yet, Who knoweth not that? But thou maiſt be where the proud rich man, being in torments, ſaw the poor man reſting, that had been ſometimes full of ſores; In that reſt thou ſhalt quietly ſtay for the day of judgement. And in the twelfth book of the City of God, chap. 9.(ſ)Cujus pars quae conjungenda immortalibus Angelis ex mortalibus hominibus congregatur, & nunc mortaliter peregrinatur in terris vel in iis, qui mortem obierunt ſecretis, animarum receptaculis ſedibuſque requieſcit. That part of the City of God which muſt be joyned with the immortal Angels, is congregated from the mortal men, and is now in a pilgrimage on earth; or is reſting in the receptacles and dwelling places of the ſouls of thoſe that are dead.
That ſuch was the opinion of the Fathers, that the ſouls enjoy not yet the heavenly glory, it is manifeſt, becauſe it was a belief generally received among the Antients, that the Saints muſt all paſs through the fire of the laſt judgement to be touched with the flame, and purged from their ſins, ſome more, ſome leſs, as they are more or leſs ſtained with ſin.(t)Hillarius in Pſal. 118. litera Gimel. Hilary makes even the Virgin Mary to paſs through that fire, as needing purgation, as we ſhall ſee hereafter. Now it is not fit that thoſe whoſe ſouls are not yet purged, enjoy the ſight of God and heavenly glory.
M. du Perron denyeth it not. For in pag. 994. to avoid the ſtrength of a place of Auſtin, which ſaith that the ſouls of the deceaſed are in a place where they ſee not the things that are done, or that happen unto men in this life, he ſaith that this doctrine of Auſtin is conformable to the hypotheſis of ſome private men, who believed that the ſouls of the godly have not the viſion of God before the final judgement; adding, that it was not a doctrine condemned, becauſe the Church had not yet pronounced a deciſion upon that.
Bellarmin ſaith the ſame in chap. 14. of the fourth book de Pontifice Romano, where he thus excuſeth Pope John XXII.(u)Reſpondeo Johannem hunc re vera ſenſiſſe animas non viſuras Deum niſi poſt reſurrectionem: Caeterum hoc ſenſiſſe quando aduc ſentire licebat ſine periculo haereſis. Nulla enim adhuc praeceſſerat Eccleſiae definitio. I anſwer, that this John believed indeed that the ſouls ſhould not ſee God but after the reſurrection: But that he had that opinion when it was yet lawfull to have it without danger of hereſie. For the Church had not yet made any deciſion about that. Yet it was then the fourteenth Age of the Church.
If that be true (as it is ſo indeed) in vain the Cardinal heapeth up teſtimonies of Antiquity to prove that in the time of the firſt four Councils they believed that the Saints know our hearts, and hear our prayers, and that they muſt be prayed to. For with what confidence could they call upon the Saints, when it was an uncertain thing, and not yet decided whether they were in hell, and in underground receptacles, or in the earthly Paradiſe, enjoying neither the glory of God, nor the ſight of that imaginary looking-glaſs, where the Cardinal holds that they ſee all things?
Now in this queſtion, Whether the ſouls of the deceaſed Saints ſee the things that are done here below, and hear our prayers, this advantage we have, that both Scripture and the Fathers of the three firſt Ages, and above half the fourth are for us. For we ſhall ſee hereafter that they are not only ſilent about this matter, but even contrary to the invocation of Saints; And we ſhall ſee the Cardinals confeſſion upon this point, for having ſearcht all Antiquity with incredible diligence, he could not find one teſtimony for his purpoſe in the three firſt ages, and therefore he confines himſelf within the time of the firſt four Councils.
Cyprian who writ about the year of the Lord 250. in the fifty ſeventh Epiſtle makes this agreement in the form of an exhortation with Cornelius Biſhop of Rome, whom he calls brother, that(x)Et ſi quis iſihinc noſtrū prior divinae dignationis celeritate praeceſſerit, perſevere apud Dominum noſtra dilectio pro fratribus & ſororibus apud miſericordiam Patris non ceſſet oratio. the firſt that ſhall depart out of this world ſhall pray for the others, and for him that ſhall outlive. For he believed that the deceaſed Saints had no other knowledge of things on earth, but by the memory of the things and perſons which they had ſeen before their death. According to the opinion of that holy woman(y)Euſeb. hiſt. Eccleſ. lib. 7. cap. 5. Potamiena who when ſhe was led to martyrdom, promiſed to Baſilides that led her unto death, to pray for him after her death. And Hierom towards the end of the Epitaph of Paula, by a rhetorical Proſopopeia commends himſelf to Paula, ſpeaking to her, as if ſhe were yet alive, and near her death. Adieu Paula! help with thy prayers the extream old age of thine honourer; thy faith and thy works join thee with Chriſt: being preſent with him, thou ſhalt eaſily obtain what thou wilt requeſt. Of which place more hereafter.
The words of Chryſoſtome are very expreſs upon this point, in the eighteenth Homily upon the Epiſtle to the Romans, (z)foreign, &c.To whom (ſaith he) ſhalt thou have recourſe? Whom ſhalt thou call to thy help and relief? Shall it be Abraham? but he ſhall not hear thee. Shall it be theſe Virgins? but they ſhall give thee none of their oyl. Whence he inferreth, that none muſt be invocated but he alone that hath power to blot out our obligations, that is, none but God alone.
The firſt Father, in whoſe writings prayers to the Saints are found, is Gregory Nazianzen, that writ about the year of Chriſt 370. for before him nothing of that kind is found in all Antiquity. Theſe prayers preſuppoſe that the Saints ſee our thoughts, and hear our prayers. Now that in that matter himſelf was wavering, and was not ſetled in his perſwaſion, he ſheweth it ſufficiently in his firſt(a)Gregor. Naz. foreign adverſus Julianum. foreign &c. foreign. Oration againſt Julian, Hear thou alſo, O thou excellent ſoul of Conſtantius, if thou haſt any ſenſe. And in the funeral Oration upon his ſiſter Gorgonia, he ſpeaks thus to that holy deceaſed woman,(b)foreign. If thou haſt ſome regard to the honour which we yield to thee; and if that reward is given to holy ſouls by God, to have the ſenſe of ſuch things; receive this ſpeech of mine. A man fixt in his belief would not ſpeak thus ambiguouſly, for this particle if is not put inſtead of for, or ſince, as M. du Perron will have it;(c)P. 1040. as it is evident by this word ſome, which is added to it; For theſe words ſhould want reaſon, Since thou haſt ſome regard: That would ſound as if he told her that ſhe had but little regard to it.
Hierom was a diſciple to this Gregory, and yet followed not his Maſters opinion. For in the Epitaph of Nepotianus he ſaith,(d)Scimus quidem Nepotianum noſtrum eſſe cum Chriſto, & ſanctorum mixtum choris. We know that our friend Nepotianus is with Chriſt, and mingled among the quire of Saints. And yet he ſaith, that he neither knew nor heard the afflictions wherewith the Church was then tormented.(e)Felix Nepotianus qui haec non videt, felix qui haec non audit. Bleſſed Nepotianus (ſaith he) that neither ſeeth nor heareth theſe things.
M. du Perron ſaith, that Nepotianus did not ſee them with his bodily eyes. But ſince Hierom accounts Nepotianus happy for not ſeeing the deſolations happened ſince his death, it is clear that his plain meaning is, that he hath no knowledge of them, becauſe that knowledge would diſturb his happineſs, for the diverſe manner of ſeeing would not diminiſh his ſorrow. Wherefore he ſaith in the ſame place,(f)Quicquid dixero, quia ille non audit mutum videtur. All that I ſhall ſay will ſeem dumb, becauſe he hears it not. And again,(g)Cum quo loqui non poſſumus, de eo loqui nunquam deſinamus. Let us not ceaſe to ſpeak of Nepotianus, with whom we can ſpeak no more. The Cardinal anſwereth, that Hierom meaneth that he could ſpeak no more with Nepotianus in a dialogue or reciprocal diſcourſe, and that therefore he ſaith not, that he could ſpeak no more to Nepotianus, but with Nepotianus. But if that were Hieroms ſenſe, he would have ſaid, Let us not ceaſe to ſpeak to Nepotianus, ſince he can no more speak with us. But he contents himſelf to ſpeak of him, becauſe he can no more ſpeak with him. And to leave no doubt about his ſenſe, theſe are the words of that Father upon Iſaiah 65.(h)Licet poſſit & hoc dici, quod in coelo novo & in terra nova omnis converſationis priſtinae memoria deleatur, ne hoc ipſum pars malorum ſit, prioris anguſtiae recordari. It may be ſaid alſo, that in the new heaven and new earth, all the memory of the paſt converſation is blotted out, leſt that very thing be part of miſery, to remember the former miſery.
In all the works of Hierom one only place is found, where diſputing againſt Vigilantius, who asked in ſcorn whether the ſouls of the Martyrs love their aſhes, and flye about their tombs? He anſwereth, that if the Lamb is every where, they that are with the Lamb muſt be believed to be every where; and ſince Devils are wandering over the world, and by an exceſſive ſwiftneſs are preſent every where, ſhould the Martyrs after the ſhedding of their blood be incloſed in a cheſt, and not be able to come out of it? M. du Perron makes uſe of that place, though it be nothing to this purpoſe. For Hierom intends not to prove that they know all things. Of that he ſpeaks neither there nor any where elſe. But only he maintaineth, that their ſpirits are not ſhut up in their tombs, but are preſent whereſoever Chriſt-man is preſent, following the Lamb whereſoever he goeth. Here M. du Perron doth advertiſe us that we muſt not learn the opinion of the Fathers from their writings, in which they diſpute againſt the Adverſaries: For (ſaith he) in thoſe writings they ſpeak gymnaſtically, not dogmatically; and diſſemble and diſguiſe many things. Why then doth he alledge this place, which is taken from an Epiſtle againſt Vigilantius, whom he accuſeth that he would have the bones of the Martyrs to be caſt upon the dunghill, and that he would be worſhipped alone?
Auſtin is very unequal and perplexed in this matter. In the book of the Spirit and the Soul, chap. 29. (which M. du Perron pag. 994. holds to be of Auſtin)(i)Ibi quidem ſunt ſpiritus defunctorum, ubi non vident neque audiunt quae aguntur aut eveniunt in iſta vita hominibus. The ſpirits of the deceaſed (ſaith he) are in one place, where they neither ſee nor hear that which is done, or that which happens unto men in this life. Yet they take care of the living, although they know not at all what they do, in the ſame manner as we take care of the dead, although we know not what they do. Which text the Cardinal ſeeks to elude, ſaying that Auſtin ſpeaks of the dead, conſidered in their general condition, and in their proper faculty, not of the dead conſtituted in the actual viſion of God. I anſwer, that Auſtin ſpeaks in the preſent tenſe, for he ſaith that the ſpirits of the dead are in a place where they ſee nothing of all that is done in this life. He ſpeaks then of the dead that were dead in his time: Now he ſpeaks not of the damned, but of the Saints; for a little after, he ſaith, that they have communication with the life of God. He ſpeaks then of thoſe that enjoy the ſight of God. Had the Cardinal read the whole text, he would never have ſaid a thing ſo contrary to truth as this, that Auſtin ſpeaks not of the dead conſtituted in the viſion of God. But how abſurd is he with that general condition of the dead? ſeeing that they are all in a condition, which is particular unto them, being all either ſaved or damned. This Cardinal forgeth unto us a general condition of the dead, which are neither ſaved nor damned. By the way, I wonder that he receiveth that book as written by Auſtin, ſeeing that Boetius is alledged in it, who hardly was born when Auſtin dyed.
Auſtin in his book of the care to be had of the dead, inquireth how, and in what manner the dead can know ſomething of the buſineſſes of this world here below, and conceiveth three wayes for it: either by the relation of thoſe that come from the earth unto them, or by their communication with Angels, or by ſo much as God will reveal unto them; for, ſaith he, God revealeth not all unto them, but as much as they ought to underſtand. But of ſeeing all in the face of God, or of that imaginary looking-glaſs, he ſpeaks never a word.
In the ſame place chap. 13. Let every one take as he will what I ſhall ſay, (k)Ut volet accipiat quiſque quod dicam, ſi rebus viventium intereſſent animae mortuorum, & ipſae quando eas videmus nos alloquerentur in ſomnis, ut de aliis taceam me ipſum pra mater nulla nocte deſineret, &c.If the ſouls of the dead were preſent in the buſineſſes of the living, and ſpake themſelves unto us when we ſee them in dreams; that I may ſay nothing of others, my good and carefull Mother who followed me by Sea and Land to live with me, would not forſake me one night.
(l)Ibi ergo ſunt ſpiritus defunctorum, ubi nonvident quaecunque aguntur aut eveniunt in iſta vita hominibus.In the ſame place chap. 13. The spirits of the dead are then in a place where they ſee not all the things that are done, or that happen unto men. How then ſhould they ſee their tombs or their bodies, whether they lye forſaken, or whether they are buried? And in chap. 15.(m)Fatendum eſt neſcire mortuos quid hîc agatur; poſtea vero audire ab eis qui hinc ad eos moriendo pergunt. Non quidem omnia, &c. It muſt be confeſt that the dead know nothing of all that is done here, while it is done: But that they hear it afterwards from them who by death go from this world to them: Yet not all indeed, but as much as they are allowed to declare, &c. They may alſo learn ſomething from Angels intervening in the buſineſſes done here below. And chap. 16. We know not where the Martyrs are, nor what they do.
Pope Gregory the I. ſpeaks much like that, upon Job (n)Nec ubi ſint Martyres, nec quid agant ſcimus.As they that are yet alive are ignorant in what place the ſouls of the dead be, ſo the dead are ignorant of the condition of life of thoſe that live after them.
In vain contrary places of the ſame Fathers are alledged, for what certainty can be expected from perſons that ſpeak with ſo much irreſolution? Truly, who ſo in matters of faith, not contenting himſelf with the authority of the word of God, ſeeks to reſolve his doubts by the writings of men, beſides the infinite length where he ſhall loſe himſelf, ſhall find himſelf ſinking in the quick-ſand of their inconſtant opinions.
The CardinalPag. 993. alledgeth a place of Proſper in the firſt book of the contemplative life, chap. 4. No ſecret thing ſhall then be hidden from the perfectly bleſſed. A thing of tranſcendent excellency. With their pure ſpirits they ſhall behold God. That place beareth the anſwer to it. For it is clear that he ſpeaks not of the knowledge which the ſouls of Saints have now, but of that which they ſhall have after the reſurrection. He puts off the viſion of God till that time. The precedent words ſhew it.(o)Receptis cum incorruptione corporibus municipatum patriae coeleſtis accipiunt. Having (ſaith he) taken their bodies again, with incorruption and immortality, they ſhall receive the right of Citizens of their heavenly Countrey. Where it is clear that he ſpeaks of the felicity of the ſouls after the reſurrection of their bodies. The very title of the chapter ſhews it. De reſurrectione vel vita ſanctorum.
The Cardinal pag. 993. alledgeth Baſil, who ſaith in the book of true Virginity.(p)foreign. There is none of them but ſeeth all things every where. But there is in the Greek, There is none of them but looks all about. Theſe words [all things] are of the Cardinals addition▪