Truth with Time, Answers · Answer 4
Anſwer to the fifth Reaſon.
The characters given to the ſeven Angels, Rev. 15.2, 3. of victory over the Beaſt, his Image, Mark, &c. all are to be found in all together; but not all together (as I conceive) in one Angel or Generation.
Repl. 1. The Text allows no ſuch diſtinction, but expreſſeth the contrary.
2. Grant ſuch a Suppoſition; then it may be ſuppoſed, that ſome of the Angels had overcome, others had not: one had the Beaſts mark, another had not: ſome propheſied clothed in ſackcloth, others not, &c. I forbear to mention what ſtrange things might be hence inferred.
Anſw. But 2. In every generation, according to the controverſie up againſt the Beaſt, his Worſhip, Image, Mark, &c. the Angels of the Vials have the victory over him and his matters.
Repl. 1. It doth not appear from Waldo to Luther, (nor yet at this day) that any of the Witneſſes got victory over the Beaſt, whether we conſider their Perſons or their Teſtimony, as Rev. 15.2, 3. It is true, in the dark times of Popery, ſome (through grace) were kept from committing fornication with the Whore, (at leaſt, from much of her groſſeſt blaſphemies) but for victory they had not, as may eaſily be ſeen, by comparing their times with that text.
But 2. Taking the word (overcome) in a ſenſe, or large acceptation, ſo indeed a Chriſtian holding forth his Teſtimony againſt the errours and corruptions of men, though impriſoned, baniſhed, murdered, &c. may be ſaid to overcome; but this muſt be underſtood as to his witneſs, faithfulneſs, conſtancie, &c. Not that the Enemy thereby was overcom'd, and put to ſilence, and the errors and corruptions no more practiſed, as Rev. 15.2, 3. intends. Mr. Tillingh. on the place, hath theſe words: The meaning is, (ſaith he) as I conceive, that Saints immediately before the Vials begin to be poured out, ſhall ſo far have gotten the victory over the Beaſt, as concerns either the ſafety of their own perſons, or the doing of their work: Antichriſt ſhall not have power over them, to make them ſubject themſelves to him, allow of his Image, Mark, the Number of his Name, or elſe to perſecute them, or kill them with the ſword, as in former times he hath done: nor ſhall he have ſuch a power, as to hinder them in the work they are about, of pouring out the Vials.
I think, from this, a man may fairly conclude, that the Vials begun not with Waldo, nor Luther, nor yet are begun. For Saints have not gotten victory over the Beaſt, ſo far as concerns their ſafety either of body or ſoul. They have been, from their days, hitherto all along, perſecuted and kill'd; and the work they were going about, ſtop'd continually. The million of Martyrs ſince Waldo, viz. in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Bohemia, England, &c. is proof enough: And therefore, in my underſtanding, there is very little reaſon to begin there, the victory of the Saints over the Beaſt, where the Beaſt begun his victory and triumph by ſlaughter over the Saints.
It is worthy of memory, that in the time of the Sackcloth-Witneſſes, when the people of God were under cruel perſecution, they made uſe of that Prophecie, (as then proper to them) Rev. 13.7. And it was given unto him to make war with the Saints, and to overcome them: this they applied as an argument of comfort and conſtancie. This being ſo, how that ſhould be the time, wherein Saints had gotten victory over the Beaſt, as to the ſafety of their own perſons, &c. and in regard of ſo great deliverance and enlargement, ſung the ſong of Moſes, &c. even then when the Beaſt made war with them, and OVERCAME THEM: I ſay, How theſe two things can ſtand together, viz. the Beaſts victory over the Saints, Rev. 13.7. and the Saints victory over the Beaſt, Rev. 15.2, 3. as to be in reſpect of time and perſons all one; truly this, or my underſtanding, is much out of the way.
Thus far I agree with that holy man, That before the Vials begin to be poured out, the Lord will ſo fit and ſpirit his Angels for the work, as they ſhall go proſperouſly forward: Neither ſhall the Beaſt, or any of his Helpers, after they begin to be poured out, prevail againſt the intereſt of Jeſus Chriſt or his people, in any Nation under the Sun.
Anſw. So 3. Mr. Till. Waldo, Groſted, Luther, were qualified in their ſeveral Ages and Generations, having victory over the Beast, and his Mark, and the number of his Name, (then reigning, and reſisting the truth and faith of Christ) as over Popes, Cardinals, Prelates, Maſs-Priests, Maſſes, Indulgences, the Whores Cup, Pilgrimages, Tranſubſtantiation, Ceremonies, Superſtitions, and a world of Popiſh traſh, which were rife, and which they witneſſed against in their days: ſo that, according to the height and degree of the Testimony and Controverſie, they had the victory over the Beast, &c: and held the harps of God in their hands: yea, they were (ſor their Generation) the called, faithful, and choſen, the upright hearts, followers of the Lamb, redeemed from men, firſt-fruits to God and the Lamb, that left all for him, denyed themſelves, took up the croſs, and followed him where-ever he went, in the witneſs of their days against the Beast, and overcome him; and ſo (as I humbly ſuppoſe) did ſweetly anſwer the Characters of the holy Ghost: beſides, had light in their preaching, and ſo (with others) poured out the Vial upon the Beast, viz. the earth, or groſs element.
Repl. This being no more (though more words) then what was ſaid before, I ſhall be the briefer.
1. Whatſoever was done by Waldo, Grosted, Luther, &c. againſt Popes, Cardinals, Prelates, Priests, was no other victory then in the ſenſe I nam'd before.
2. Neither did they finde fault with the Places, Offices, and Callings of ſuch men, (though unlawful and Antichriſtian) but for ſome abuſes and miſcarriages therein. It is well known, that Armachan, Grosted, and others, were Prelates, Prieſts, Maſs-Prieſts; and never renounced their Calling.
So 3. For many of the particulars here ſet down, they bare no Teſtimony againſt them, but allowed and practiſed a multitude of Ceremonies, Superſtitions, and Popiſh traſh.
4. To ſay they had the harps of God in their hands; here again I am at a loſs. Whilſt the Jews were in Babylon, they hanged their harps upon the willows, Pſal. 137.2. Indeed, when the Lord turned again the Captivity of Sion, then was their mouth filled with laughter, and their tongue with ſinging, Pſal. 126.1, 2. I had thought that the harps of God come not into the hands of Saints, till after the riſing of the Witneſſes: But by this, it ſeems, whether before or after, the times are all one, as to Victory, Triumph, Singing, &c. onelyonly in meaſure and degree ſome oddes. Poor encouragement and comfort for ſuch who expect to have all things new!
5. I think, what is ſaid of Waldo, Grosted, Luther, and others, as to be the called, choſen, and faithful, followers of Lamb, redeemed from men, firſt-fruits to God and to the Lamb, &c. it is more then their due, if referred to Rev. 17.14. and Chap. 14.3, 4, 5. It is ſaid of Job, that he was a perfect man, upright, one that feared God, and eſchewed evil, Job 1.1. Now howſoever the like may be ſaid of others, and truly too; yet it would be abſurd to ſay, that in that Text they are ſo deſcrib'd. Whatſoever theſe men were in their Generation, (I ſay, to give them their due to the full) none of the Characters in Rev. 14 & 15. belong to them, viz. the matter there, it relates not to them. Beſides, it is a great darkning of the holy Prophecies, and deſtroys all Order, to apply to the laſt times, things paſs'd many hundred years before.
Anſw. And yet 4. I do not finde a perfection or full anſwer to theſe Characters in every point, as having the full victory and triumph over the Beast till the Armageddon-battel be over, or the ſeventh Vial. So that for theſe and ſome other Reaſons, I think your fifth is of no force.
Repl. 1. Seeing neither Waldo, Grosted, Luther, &c. had the Characters, and ſo conſequently were none of the ſeven Angels; it is nothing to our matter, whether there ſhall be perfection and full victory, or not, till the Armageddon-battel.
But 2. To give ſome light here, (according to the light I have received) That which you call perfection or full victory, as to the Characters, is to be conſidered two ways. 1. Particular; and thus the effects of every Vial ſhall be perfect and full, according to the ſubject; not one Vial to carry on and perfect, what was left by the other unfiniſhed. 2. Univerſal, that is, when the last Vial is poured out, all is done, as Rev. 16.17.
It hath been thought, (but whence taken, I know not) the firſt and ſecond Vials not being full and perfect; the third and fourth falling on the ſubjects of the former, are to finiſh what the other left undone: and this is one great cauſe of mens miſtake about the beginning of the Vials; which is neither ſo, nor ſo.