Truth with Time, Answers · Answer 2
Anſwer to the third Reaſon. To your third Reaſon, the integral of which lies in the marginal Queſtion, What reaſon there is, to begin there, as you ſay, and not after nor before; I anſwer, 1. Becauſe, till then, the Beaſt was not grownfull enough for the Vials: but then he was at a full growth, and all the world wondered after him.
Repl. 1. Here again you are much miſtaken, to think that the Beaſt was grown full enough for the Vials, in the times of Waldo, Wickliff, Huſs, Luther, &c. For he comes not to his growth for the Vials, till the time of his reign be expired, that is, the fourty and two months. The ſins of the Amorites, no doubt, were many and great, in Abraham's time; yet not grown full enough for the Vials, till the four hundred years were expired, Gen. 15.13, 16. To make the iniquity either of a Perſon or State full, the time muſt run out which God hath appointed.
Hence then I might frame this Argument:
Till the Beaſt be grown full for the Vials, they are not to be poured out upon him. (So you.)
But till the fourty and two months are expired, the Beaſt is not grown full enough for the Vials. (So the Scripture.)
Therefore none of the Vials are to be poured out upon the Beaſt till the fourty and two months are expired.
But 2. had you ſaid that the Beaſt in Waldo's or Luther's time, was grown full enough, as to be diſcovered and known to be the Beaſt; therein I would agree with you: but begin elſe where you will, (for it is all one) whether at Waldo or Luther, or four hundred years before either of them, the Beaſt might be ſaid to be grown full enough for the Vials; the time onelyonly excepted, which is the main thing.
Anſw. 2. Becauſe then (and not before or after) the groſs earth of Papacie, in all manner of filthy traſh, &c. appeared in height eminently, and moſt univerſally, as the adequate ſubject of the firſt Vial.
Repl. 1. I have once or twice touch'd this wreſt-interpretation; and the rather, leſt we ſhould fall into the fault of our fore-fathers, who, becauſe Errours for a while had paſs'd currant from hand to hand, at length believed them, without any tryal. That by earth, Rev. 16.2. ſhould be meant the groſſer parts of Popery, truly in my opinion, it is as weakly gathered from that place, as a thing can be. For among the ſeveral acceptations of the word (earth) in Scripture, not one will be found to ſecond ſuch a ſence. It is no good way, to have the Scriptures follow things; but rather, let things follow the Scriptures. Becauſe we ſee, by the preaching of Waldo, Wickliff, Armachan, Huſs, Luther, &c. nothing fell, but a little of the groſſer part of Popery: therefore we muſt expound earth to be that groſſer part of Popery: this is not to give pre-eminence to the Scriptures: but, on the other hand, when the Word hath its latitude, fulneſs, perfection; to apply then what is ſutable and agreeable to that, this is to give honour to whom honour is due.
But 2. and to come nearer to the Anſwer: Then (ſay you) and not before or after. Truly I think, this will not appear ſo, in either of your ways; though by earth we ſhould underſtand the groſſer parts of Popery.
For 1. The groſſer part of Popery appeared in height, eminently and univerſally, ſome hundred years even before Waldo, (yea, and witneſſed againſt) as in his time, though not ſo publickly, boldly, and clearly oppoſed, as then. 2. Neither did the good men you mention, put down the groſſer part of Popery; it remained in moſt places in height, eminently and univerſally, as before. It is, in my opinion, a ſtrange ſence, that by earth ſhould be meant the groſſer part of Popery, as the adequate ſubject of the firſt Vial; and Waldo, Wickliff, Armachan, Groſted, Huſs, Luther, &c. the Angel of it; and yet the earth (the adequate ſubject of the Vial) not touch'd in moſt places, as to the deſtroying and rooting of it up. 3. To ſay, Nor after, I may ſay, What meaneth then the bleating of the ſheep? &c. Is there not, in Rome, Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Poland, &c. as much of this groſs earth, as was in Waldo's or Luther's time?
Anſw. 3. Becauſe then (and not before or after) were the effects of the firſt Vial, viz. plague-ſores, burning, broyling, raging ulcers, breaking out, and begun to appear.
Repl. To let paſs what is ſuppoſed, but not proved, viz. that the Sackcloth-witneſſes are Vial-angels; the plague-ſores, burning, broyling, &c. Rev. 16.2. the effects of Waldo's and Luther's preaching: I ſay, The Beaſt raged, and had ſuch ſores and boils upon him, (as you ſpeak of) many hundred years before their times; occaſioned by other Witneſſes, who ſpake boldly againſt the Tyranny and Idolatry of the See of Rome. I could name many who ſuffered for their faithful Teſtimony this way. 2. The Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, Non-conformiſts, &c. (as they are call'd) by their Doctrines and Practices, ſmote the earth, (as you underſtand) more eminently and effectually then either Waldo or Luther did; and yet theſe came forth after them. And, to ſpeak the truth, to begin the Vials at theſe men, it hath more ſhew of ſomething like a Vial, then the other. For, to bring in Groſted and Armachan, and ſuch men, as Angels clothed in pure and fine linen, and having their breſts girded with golden girdles; the oddes and diſparity (in my opinion) is too great as once to be named.
Anſw. 4. Becauſe till then, the ſeventh part of the ſixth Trumpet, or the plagues by the hands of the Turks, (Rev. 9.14, 15, 16, &c. the four Angels looſed from the river Euphrates) were executing upon the Papists; ſo that theſe last plagues began not before: and that they began not after, I ſuppoſe the effects of Groſtead, Armachan, Waldo, (whom we exclude not) Wickcliff's, Huſſe's, Luther's preaching, eaſily prove. That is a miſtake, to think we leave out Waldo, or the Witneſſes of his time, ſeeing we apply it not to perſons, but to Witneſſes. And ſeeing the earth (the ſubject of this firſt Vial) was ſo univerſal, viz. in all carnal Chriſtendom, &c.
Repl. 1. In ſaying, that Waldo, Wickliff, Armachan, &c. began the Vials under part of the ſixth Trumpet, you quite loſe the matter ſo much pleaded for; becauſe the Vials begin not till the beginning of the ſeventh Trumpet, as the Trumpets begin not till the opening of the ſeventh Seal, Rev. 8.1, 2, 3. So then, according to the time which you apply them to, they may be Angels (and indeed, I think ſo they were) of the Trumpets, but not Angels of the ſeven laſt plagues.
2. I do not ſee what Ground there is, in the leaſt, to take the beginning of the Vials from the Turks executing plagues upon the Papiſts: for the Papiſts were plagued by them, both before Waldo's time, and long after. Beſides, for the four Angels looſed from the river Euphrates, though I conſent with you, that the Saracens and Turks are there meant; yet to what time the place ſhould be applied, it is doubtful. Brightman refers it to the riſe of the Ottoman Empire, about the year 1300: and gathers, that the power of the Turks ſhall continue to the year 1696, and then finally be broken. Mede thinks the four Angels ſignifie ſo many Sultans or Kingdoms into which the Turks were divided, when firſt having paſſed over Euphrates, they had ſpread themſelves into the neighbouring Coaſts of Aſia and Syria, about the year 1080. Others aſcend higher, even to Mahumet himſelf, the firſt Author of the Eaſtern Impieties and Blaſphemies, about anno 620. So Bullinger, Illiricus, Pareus, Mayer, &c. And, in my opinion, they have the better ground who take it thus: which was many hundred years before Waldo's time.
Laſtly, whereas you ſay, It is a miſtake, to think we leave out Waldo, or the Witneſſes of his time, ſeeing we apply it not to Perſons, but to Witneſſes: Firſt, then, here you differ from Mr Tilling. who ſaith expreſly, The times of Wickliff, Huſs, the Waldenſes and Albigenſes, could not be any part of this Vial; and therefore ſtrictly begins at Luther. 2. Seeing the Witneſſes were to propheſie in Sackcloth 1260 days, (the whole time of the Beaſt's reign) I ſee no reaſon (according to your opinion) why any of the Witneſſes ſhould be left out; but to begin the Vials at the beginning of the 1260 dayes, with the firſt Witneſſes.