Treasons Masterpiece, Part

Treasons Masterpiece · Part

p. 1Thurſday the Ninth of April 1657.

ORdered by the Parliament, that a Committee be appointed to wait upon his Highneſs the Lord Protector, in reference to what his Highneſs did yeſterday propoſe in his Speech, now reported to the Houſe.

Reſolved, That this Committee have power to receive from his Highneſs his doubts and ſcruples, touching any of the particulars contained in the humble Petition and Advice formerly preſented; and in anſwer thereunto, to offer to his Highneſs reaſons for his ſatisfaction, and for the maintainance of the Reſolutions of this Houſe; and ſuch particulars as they cannot ſatisfie his Highneſs in, that they report the ſame to the Parliament.

The Names of the Committee.

Lord Whitlock.

Lord Broghill.

Maſter of the Rolls.

Lord Commiſſioner Liſle.

Mr. Waller.

Lord Chief Juſtice.

Sir Charles Woolſeley.

Gen. Montague.

Col. Jepſon.

Sir Thomas Jones.

Sir William Strickland.

Col. Thiſtlethwait.

Lord Commiſſioner Fines.

Sir Richard Onſlow.

Sir Rich. Lucy.

Mr. Secretary.

Atturney of the Dutchy.

Atturney General.

Mr. Godfrey.

Lord Howard.

p. 2Col. Jones.

Col. Carter.

Col. Whitgrave.

Col. Brooks.

Mr. Lee.

Mr. Jenkinſon.

Mr. Bampfield.

Mr. Drake.

Col. Ingoldsby.

Mr. Pitts.

Mr. Pickering.

Lord Cockram.

Mr. Grove.

Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Nath. Bacon.

Mr. Ingoldsby.

Lord Provoſt of Edenb.

Mr. Bedfor.

Col. Ireland.

Col. Hacker.

Major Wagſtaffe.

Mr. Franc. Bacon.

Mr. Downing.

Mr. Price.

Maj. Gen. Whaley.

Sir John Reynolds.

Mr. Steward.

Sir Chriſt. Pack.

Mr. Lawrence.

Alderm. Foot.

Capt. Lilburne.

Sir William Roberts.

Mr. Trevor.

Mr. Baron Parker.

Mr. Tigh.

Sir John Hobart.

Mr. Hamden.

Mr. Cromwell.

Mr. Throgmortou.

Mr. Fleetwood.

Mr. Philips.

Maj. Gen. Goffe.

Mr. Fowell.

Major Audley.

Col. Wilton.

Major Morgan.

Col. Wood.

Maj. Gen. Berry.

Lord Strickland.

Lord Cleypoole.

Mr. Barkley.

Major Burton.

Mr. Dunch.

Col. Marckham.

Major Aſton.

Maj. Gen. Bridges.

Sir Tho. Rouſe.

Mr. Bond.

Col. Fowkes.

Col. Bridges.

Mr. Moody.

Col. Groveſnor.

Mr. Gorges.

Earl of Tivedale.

Sir John Weeſnes.

Dr. Dowglas.

Major Beake.

Mr. Briſcoe.

Capt. Stone.

Mr. Lucy.

p. 3Col. Harvey.

Sir Liſlebone Long.

Mr. Thelwall.

Sir Edward Roads.

Sir Francis Norris.

Col. Sydenham.

Mr. Rouſe.

Mr. Tromball.

Mr. Burton.

To meet forthwith in the Speaker's Chamber.

Reſolved, That this Committee have Power to appoint ſome of their number to attend his Highneſs, to deſire him to appoint a time when they may wait upon him according to thoſe Votes.

Hen. Scobell Clerk of the Parliament.

The Lord Whitlock, 11 April.

I Only underſtand, that by Order of the Parliament, this Committee are tied up to receive what your Highneſs ſhall be pleaſed to offer, as to your Doubts or Scruples upon this Paper: The very words of the Order are, That the Committee have Power to attend your Highneſs, to receive from your Highneſs your Doubts and Scruples, touching any the particulars contained in the humble Petition and Advice, formerly preſented; and in anſwer thereunto, to offer to your Highneſs Reaſons for your Satisfaction, and for the maintenance of the Reſolutions of the Houſe; and ſuch particulars as we cannot ſatisfie your Highneſs in, that we may report the ſame to the Parliament, what particulars your Highneſs ſhall think fit to object.

Your Highneſs is pleaſed to mention, the Government, as it now is, and ſeems to ſome of our apprehenſions, as if your Highneſs did make that an Objection, If the Government be well, why do you change it? If that be intended by your Highneſs as an Objection in the general, p. 4I ſuppoſe the Committee will give you ſatisfaction.

Lord Protector.

SIR, I think that neither you nor I, but meet with a very good heart, to come to ſome iſſue of this great buſineſs; and truly that is, that I cannot aſſure you I have all the reaſon and argument in the world to move me to it, and am exceeding ready to be ordered by you in the way of proceeding, onelyonly I confeſs according to thoſe thoughts I have, as I have anſwered my own thoughts in preparing for ſuch a work as this is: I have made this notion of it to my ſelf: That having met you twice, at the Committee firſt, and returned you that anſwer that I gave you then; and the Houſe a ſecond time: I do perceive that the favour and the indulgence that the Houſe ſhews me in this, is, that I might receive ſatisfaction: I know they might have been poſitive in the thing, and ſaid they had done enough, if they had onelyonly made ſuch an addreſs to me; they might have inſiſted upon it, onelyonly to offer it, yet I could plainly ſee, it was my ſatisfaction they aimed at; I think really and ſincerely, it is my ſatisfaction that they intend, and truely I think there is one clauſe in the Paper, that doth a little warrant that, to offer ſuch reaſons for his ſatisfaction, and for the maintainance of the Reſolutions of the Houſe.

Now Sir it's true, the occaſion of all this, is the anſwer that I made, that occaſions a Committee to come hither, in order to my ſatisfaction: and truly Sir I doubt (if you will draw out thoſe reaſons from me, I will offer them to you, but I doubt on my own part) if you ſhould proceed that way, it would put me a little out of the method of my own thoughts, and it being mutual ſatisfaction that is endeavoured, if you will do me the favour, it will more agree with my method; I ſhall take it as a favour, if it pleaſe you, I will leave you to conſider together your own thoughts of it.

p. 5Lord Whitlock.

THe Committee that are commanded by the Parliament, and are here preſent to wait upon your Highneſs, I do ſuppoſe cannot undertake to give the Reaſons of the Parliament, for that they have done; but any Gentleman here can give his own particular apprehenſion for your Highneſs ſatisfaction; and if you will be pleaſed to go in the way which you have propounded, and either in general or in particular to require a ſatisfaction from the Committee, I ſuppoſe we ſhall be ready to do the beſt we can to give you ſatisfaction.

Lord Protector.

I Think if this be ſo, then I ſuppoſe nothing can be ſaid by you, but what the Parliament hath dictated to you, and I think that is clearly expreſt, that the Parliament intends ſatisfaction; then is it as clear, that there muſt be Reaſons and Arguments, that have light and conviction in them, in order to ſatisfaction.

I ſpeak for my ſelf in this, I hope you will think it no otherwiſe: I ſay it doth appear ſo to me, that you have the liberty of your own reaſons; I think if I ſhould write any of them, I cannot call this the Reaſon of the Parliament. The Parliament in determinations and concluſions, by Votes of the ſeveral particulars of the Government, that Reaſon is dilated, and diffuſed, and every man hath a ſhare of it; and therefore when they have determined ſuch a thing, certainly it was reaſon that led them up into it; and if you ſhall be pleaſed to make me partaker of ſome of that Reaſon, I do very reſpectfully repreſent to you, that I have a general diſſatiſfaction at the thing; and I do deſire that I may be informed in the grounds that lead you, whom I preſume are all ſatisfied perſons to the thing, and every part of it; and if you will be pleaſed to think ſo fit, I will not farther urge it upon you: To proceed that way, p. 6it will be a favour to me; otherwiſe I ſhall deal plainly with you: It doth put me out of the method of my own conceptions, and then I ſhall beg that I may have an hours deliberation, that we might meet again in the Afternoon.

Lord Chief-Juſtice.

THe Parliament ſent us to wait upon your Highneſs, to give your Highneſs any ſatisfaction that is in our underſtandings to give: the whole Paper conſiſts of many Heads, and if your Highneſs intend ſatisfaction, the Propoſitions being general, we can give but general Satisfaction; and therein we are ready, if that be your Highneſs meaning: I think we ſhall be ready to give ſatisfaction, as far as our Underſtandings.

Lord Protector.

IF you will pleaſe to give me leave, I do agree, truely the thing is a general, as it is either falling under the notion of Settlement: that's a general that conſiſts of many particulars; and truely if you call it by that that it is Tituled, there it is general, it is Advice, Deſires and Advice; and that (the truth is) that I have made my Objection in, is but to one thing as yet; only the laſt time I had the honour to meet the Parliament, I did offer to them, that they would put me into a condition to receive ſatisfaction to the particulars: no queſtion I might eaſily offer ſomething particular for debate, if I thought that that would anſwer the end; for truely, I know my end and yours is the ſame, that is, to bring things to an iſſue one way or other, that we may know where we are, that we may attain that general end, that is, Settlement; the end is in us both, and I durſt contend with any one perſon p. 7in the world, that it is not more in his heart, than in mine. I could go to ſome particulars to ask a Queſtion, or ask a Reaſon of the Alteration, which would well enough let you into the buſineſs, (that it might) yet I ſay it doth not anſwer me: I confeſs I did not ſo ſtrictly examine that Order of reference, or whether I read it or no, I cannot tell you; If you will have it that way, I ſhall (as well as I can) make ſuch an Objection as may occaſion ſome anſwer to it, though perhaps I ſhall object weak enough, I ſhall very freely ſubmit to you.

Lord Chief-Juſtice.

THe Parliament hath commanded us for that end, to give your Highneſs ſatisfaction.

Lord Commiſſioner Fines.

MAy it pleaſe your Highneſs, Looking upon the Order, I finde that we are impowred to offer any Reaſons that we think fit, either for the ſatisfaction of your Highneſs, or maintenance of what the Parliament hath given you their advice in; and I think we are rather to offer to your Highneſs the Reaſons of the Parliament, if your Highneſs Diſſatisfaction be to the Alteration of Government in general, or in particular.

Lord Protector.

I Am very ready to ſay, I have no Diſſatisfaction, that it hath pleaſed the Parliament to finde out a way (though it be of alteration) to bring theſe Nations into a good Settlement; and perhaps you may have judged the Settlement we were in, was not ſo much for the great End of Government, the Liberty and Good of p. 8the Nations, and the preſervation of all thoſe honeſt Intereſts that have been engaged in this Cauſe; I ſay, I have no exception to the general, that the Parliament hath thought fit to take conſideration of a new Settlement, or Government; but you having done it as you have, and made me ſo far intereſted in, as to make ſuch an Overture to me, I ſhall be very glad, if you ſo pleaſe to let me know it, that beſides the pleaſure of the Parliament, may be ſomewhat of the Reaſon of the Parliament, for intereſting me in this thing, and for making the alteration ſuch as it is: Truly, I think, I ſhall as to the other particulars ſwallow this, I ſhall be very ready to aſſign particular Objections to clear that to you, that may be either better to clear, or to help me at leaſt to a clearer underſtanding of the things for better good, for that I know is in your hearts as well as mine. Though I cannot preſume that I have any thing to offer to you, that may convince you: But if you will take in good part, I ſhall offer ſomewhat to every particular. If you pleaſe, as to the firſt of the thing, I am clear as to the ground of the thing, being ſo put to me, as it hath been put; I think that ſome of the grounds upon which it is done, will very well lead into ſuch Objections or Doubts as I may offer, and will be a very great help to me in it; and if you will have me offer this, or that, or the other doubt that may ariſe methodically, I ſhall do it.

Lord Whitlock.

I Am very much aſſured, that all this company is come with the ſame Affection and faithful Reſpect to the Publick Settlement, as your Highneſs hath pleaſed to expreſs. For my part, I do with a great deal of Clearneſs and Faithfulneſs; and in my particular apprehenſion, p. 9I conceive that the Method that your Highneſs mentioned to proceed in, we may anſwer; and if any Gentleman be of another opinion, he will be pleaſed to correct me in it.

The Parliament taking conſideration of the preſent Government, and the Inſtrument that doth eſtabliſh it, ſeemeth to my apprehenſion to be of opinion, that it was very fit, there ſhould be ſome courſe taken for a Settlement in the Government of the Nation, by the Supream Legiſlative Power; your Highneſs and the Parliament concurring together in it, they found the Inſtrument of Government in the Original and Foundation of it, to require this Settlement by the Supream Legiſlative Power, in regard of the Original of the other; which they did, as I apprehended by ſome Gentlemens Debates upon it, might be an occaſion of ſome doubts, and of leſs ſtability, if it were left to continue upon the ſame foundation it is.

That it will not be ſo clear a Settlement and Foundation for the Preſervation of the Rights and Liberties of the Nation, as if we came to a Settlement by the Supreme Legiſlative Power; upon that ground it was taken into Conſideration, and a Settlement brought to effect, upon very ſolemn, full, and candid Debates among themſelves in Parliament.

Their Intentions, I ſuppoſe, were only theſe; To provide for the Safety and Peace of the Nations hereafter, to provide for the Rights and Liberties, both Spiritual and Civil, of the People of theſe Nations; and in order to make the beſt proviſion they could, for theſe great Concernments of the People, the Petition and Advice which they have humbly preſented to your Highneſs, was brought to a determination by them.

p. 10For that particular which your Highneſs did formerly intimate, when the Parliament did attend upon you, the Committee of the Parliament, and which you are now pleaſed to intimate, concerning the Title, I do humbly apprehend the grounds of that to be theſe.

The foundation of that Title of Protector being not known by the Law, being a new Title, it was thought, that the Title which is known by the Law of England for many Ages, many hundred of years together received, and the Law fitted to it, and that to the Law, that it might be of more certainty and clear Eſtabliſhment, and more conformable to the Laws of the Nation; that that Title ſhould be that of King, rather than that other of Protector. There is very much as to the eſſence of the buſineſs, as ſome Gentlemen did apprehend; That the Title ſhould be a known Title, that hath been in all theſe Times and Ages received, and every particular perſon hath occaſion of knowing of it, and of his Rights applied to it: And likewiſe of the general Rights of the People and their Liberties, have an application to that Name, which application cannot be ſo clear and ſo certain to a new Title, the Title of Protector. (Some Gentlemen I heard reaſon it) that the Title of Protector is only upon the Original and Foundation as it now ſtands; but the Title of King, beſides the Conſtitutions by which it ſhall be made, will likewiſe have a Foundation upon the old and known Laws of the Nation; So that there will be both the preſent Conſtitution, and likewiſe the ancient Foundation of the Laws of England to be the Baſis of the Title of King: What Changes of this nature may bring of Inconvenience with them, can hardly in every particular be foreſeen; but it is imagined, that many will be, that poſſibly we may not be able beforehand to comprehend; but there ſeems to be more of certainty and ſtability, and p. 11of the Supream Authority, civil Sanction upon tha Title, than upon the other: This I humbly apprehend to be one reaſon, concerning both the eſtabliſhment of the whole; and as to that particular, which I think is the firſt part of it, your Highneſs ſeemed to intimate.

Maſter of the Rolls.

MAy it pleaſe your Highneſs, I am very glad that there is ſuch a latitude as we may ſhew our ſelves here, as I know the Parliament intends to give your Highneſs all ſatisfaction as may be: and truly I ſay upon the firſt head, which your Highneſs is pleaſed to call a Title, as if it were a bare Title, which I muſt humbly crave pardon if I do not think, nor the Houſe did not think, but it carries more in it of weight than a meer Title; for upon due conſideration you ſhall find that the whole body of the Law is carried upon this Wheel, it is not a thing that ſtands on the top meerely, but runs through the whole life and veins of the Law; you cannot almoſt make any thing, or do any thing; look upon all our Laws ever ſince we had Laws, look upon all the Conſtitution, ſtill there is ſuch an intereſt, not of the Title, but of the name King, beſides the Title, (that's not the thing) for the Title you may rather tye it to the perſon than the thing, but the word King doth ſignifie the perſon. Now Sir, we do ſee in all the ways of our proceedings in the maintaining of the Rights, Properties and Intereſts of the people, and of the Prerogative of the chief Magiſtrate, that the very Office carries on the buſineſs and not the Title, and yet it muſt be ſuch a Title too, as implies the Office, and makes the Office ſuitable to the Law; It's the Office that doth dignifie the perſon, not the perſon the Office: I ſhall crave your Highneſs pardon if I ſpeak any thing amiſs, we ſee that the very p. 12Office that carries on, and not the Perſon; yet that Office muſt have a ſuitableneſs. I have obſerved all along, that we have had many Debates that have ariſen in this Nation about the thing, but the ground and reaſon why they have adhered to this Title, was for the maintenance of their Liberties, not for the change of the Office. I muſt confeſs, I do not ſee that the other Title will do the ſame thing, that other Title hath no further latitude, nor extent, but the very Inſtrument, it goes no further, for the very Inſtrument is the foundation of it; we can finde no further Inſtrument original: we have had thoſe Names heretofore, but never grounded upon the thing it ſelf, but grounded upon the Office of a King; they had no Office, or Duty to perform, but what was under the Office and Duty of a King, 'tis very true, it is not ſo now certainly, for you have now a Title upon that foundation that is your Inſtrument, and it can reach no further, it is a Title that I cannot ſee, I muſt confeſs, but that we have a good Magiſtrate, and good Officers, but it may extend whither it will, it hath no limit at all; but the Chief Magiſtrate, if he ſhould prove otherwiſe, you have no limit by it by any rule of Law that I underſtand: If you pleaſe, give me leave to tell you, the very Inſtrument does give a foundation to the Title of Protector, I am ſure, to croſs if he pleaſe, the moſt Fundamental Points that the Law hath. There was a time when a Prince of this Nation (a very late time too) would change this Name, and it was a very ſlender change; for it was but from the King of England, to the King of Great Britain, and this was preſented to the Parliament; it had a Debate of many days, and it was reſolved there and ſettled, that they could not change, there was ſo much hazard in that change, they knew not but that all their Rights and Liberties might be thereby altered: and when the King ſaw he could not obtain it of the Houſe, he declared by p. 13Proclamation, that he never intended to take any name upon him, that ſhould put a doubt to the Liberties and Priviledges of Parliament, and cauſed this Proclamation to be put among the Statutes, I may ſay it indeed very cunningly to be Printed, and put among the Statutes, (though indeed it was none) and becauſe there was a danger, he laid it down willingly; only (ſaies he) your Divines in the Pulpits ſhall pray for me by the Title (King of Great Britain,) and Ambaſſadours ſhall make their Addreſs by that name; but your Laws I will not alter the name. In the Parliament there was a queſtion, Whether we ſhould not alter the name of Parliament, and call it, The Repreſentative of the People; but the whole Houſe went upon this ground, that by changing the name of Parliament to a Repreſentative, we did not know how it might change the very courſe, ground and reaſon of Parliament: There is a great deal of thing in the very name. I remember a very Honourable Perſon, now with God, was then very earneſt for it, for having this name changed, and he did ſhew many Reaſons for it; but hearing the Debates and Reaſons againſt it, he ſat down and was ſatisfied; I think I may name him, it was my Lord Ireton, who did ſay he was ſatisfied, it was not fit to be done at that time. It is a famous Story in every mans mouth heretofore, when there was but a little intention to change the Law, it was a general Reſolution given by the Lords, Nolimus Leges Angliae mutare: It's doubted, yea conceived not poſſible, to annex the Laws and the Title of Protector together; this I muſt ſay, we come now with an intention of a perfect Settlement, ſuch as may give ſafety to the Nation, to your Perſon, to the People: for indeed, Sir, they are very jealous of their Laws and Liberties, and have bin in all Ages; and though it may not have an intention to do ſuch a thing, yet if you have a doubt, 'tis better and more ſafe for the Chief Magiſtrate, to keep that which hath no doubt then.

p. 14The Parliament laying their intereſt and their regard to you together, and giving you this advice, this is Vox populi, for it is the voice of Three Nations in one Parliament. Upon publick intereſt the chief thing is the ſafety of the people; that ſafety, your will, your judgment, nay, give me leave to tell you, your Conſcience is bound to it, for it is the principal end of Government and Governours: this is preſented to you by Three Nations, by the Parliament, although you may make your heſitations, yet ſuch a thing of great weight and conſequence: I know this, that what I have ſaid may ſeem to imply as if we ſhould fall upon a point: By the Laws I can ſay in all Generations, this is mine, and this is the Princes, and the Prince cannot do me wrong, nor the Council do me wrong, &c. Therefore I think you may ſafely, and I hope will agree to this particular, as we have preſented it: I dare not ſay that your Highneſs (as it comes as advice from Parliament) ought to do ſo.

The Lord Protector.

I Cannot deny but the things that have been ſpoken, have been ſpoken with a great deal of weight, and it is not fit for me to ask of any of you, if you have a mind to ſpeak farther of this; but if it had been ſo their pleaſure, truly then I think it would have put me in according to the method and way I have conceived to my ſelf, to the more preparedneſs to have return'd ſome anſwer: and if it had not been to you a trouble, I am ſure the buſineſs requires it from any man in the world, if he were in any caſe, much more from me, to make ſerious and true anſwers, I mean ſuch as are not feigned in my own thoughts, but ſuch wherein I expreſs the truth and honeſty of my heart; I mean that by true anſwers, I did hope, that when I had heard you ſo far p. 15as it is in your pleaſure to ſpeak to this head, I ſhould have then (taking ſome ſhort notice as I did) have been in a condition this afternoon, if it had not been a trouble to you, to have returned my anſwer upon a little adviſement with my ſelf; but ſeeing you have not thought it convenient to proceed this way, truly I think I may very well ſay, that I had need have a little thoughts of the thing to return an anſwer to it, leſt your debate ſhould end on my part, with a very vain diſcourſe, and with lightneſs, which it is very like to do: I ſay therefore, if you think to proceed farther to ſpeak to theſe things, I ſhould have made my own ſhort Adnimadverſions on the whole this afternoon, and made ſome ſhort reply; and this would have uſhered me in, not onelyonly to have given the beſt anſwer I could, but to have made my own objections.

Lord Chief Juſtice.

SInce it is your Highneſs pleaſure, that it ſhould be ſpoken now altogether, by thoſe that have any thing to ſay: I think it will be the intent of the Committee and the Parliament, to give your Highneſs ſatisfaction in all particulars, both ſubſtance and circumſtance: I confeſs I waited for objections from your Highneſs, that being the principal ſcope of the Order: Truly my Lord, I ſtand up with no confidence that I can add any thing to what hath been ſaid; but becauſe it pleaſes your Highneſs to do us the great favour to put us to particulars, I think the queſtion before you is but ſingly thus: I am already Protector, and I have that Office put to the Government, whereby we meet the Parliament now: we deſire you to take upon you the Office of King; why do you ſo?

That which we are to ſpeak here, is no other, but that p. 16which we can underſtand was the ſenſe of the Parliament, in juſtification of what they have done: I ſhall not ſpeak any thing of the Government it ſelf, but to this particular; I think the Office of a King is a lawful Office, and the Title too, approved of by the Word of God, that's plain. It is plain likewiſe, it is an Office that hath been exerciſed in this Nation from the time it hath been a Nation: And I think it is as true, that there never was any quarrel with the Office, but the Male-adminiſtration, that I can remember, about the ill Government; Oftentimes Kings have been blamed, and very juſtly, for their ill Government, but we do not read that there was any Challenge by the Parliament, that this Government we deſire to be diſcharged of: If that be true, it is to me a ſtrange ground, having paſt the ſcrutiny of ſo many Parliaments, where they did debate de re, that in all theſe Debates they did not charge it upon the Nation, that the place is a burthen in its own nature, and this too, when Parliaments have had opportunity to have changed the Government. The name of KING is a name known by the Law, and the Parliament doth deſire, that your Highneſs would aſſume that Title; theſe are the Grounds why the Parliament make it their humble Advice and Requeſt to your Highneſs that you would be pleaſed to aſſume that Title, and I think there is ſomething more in it: You are now Lord Protector of the Three Nations, by the Inſtrument, and there is a Clauſe of this Government, that you ſhould govern according to Law, and your Highneſs is ſworn to that Government: The Parliament doth apprehend that it is almoſt impoſſible for your Highneſs to anſwer the expectation of the People, to be governed by the Laws, and yet you are ſo tied up, that neither they can rationally call for it, nor you conſcientiouſly do it, and ſo there is neither Lord Protector, nor the People, upon a ſure p. 17eſtabliſhment, for there ſtands the caſe: A King hath run through ſo many Ages in this Nation, and hath Governed the Nation by that Title and Stile, that it is known to the Law; for the Law of the Nation is no otherwiſe, than what hath been a cuſtom to be practiſed, as is approved by the people to be good; that's the Law and nothing elſe, excepting Acts of Parliament; and now they have been Governed by that Title, and by that Miniſter, and by that Office. If ſo be your Highneſs ſhould do any Act, and one ſhould come and ſay, My Lord Protector, why are you ſworn to Govern by the Law, and you do thus and thus, as you are Lord Protector, do I? why, how am I bound to do? why, the King could not have done ſo, why, but I am not King, I am not bound to do as the King, I am Lord Protector; ſhew me that the Law doth require me to do it as Protector, if I have not acted as Protector: ſhew me where the Law is, why you put any one to a ſtumble in that caſe: this is one thing that I humbly conceive did ſtick in the Parliament as to that particular. Another thing is this, you are Protector, which is a new Office not known to the Law, and made out of doors: you are call'd upon, that you would be pleaſed to accept that Office of a King, that is, by the whole people: It's the firſt Government that ſince theſe troubles hath been tendred, by a general and univerſal conſent of the people. Another thing is this, if any ſhould find fault with them, and ſay, why, how came you to make Governments in this caſe? why, the anſwer is, we are a Parliament, and have your ſuffrage, you have ever truſted us with all your Votes, and we will juſtifie it: but beſides, we have not done it neither; we have but ſetled it upon the old Foundations, then the Kingſhip; however ſome may pretend, a King's Prerogative is ſo large, that we know it not, it is not bounded; but the Parliament p. 18are not of that opinion. The Kings Prerogative is known by Law, he did expatiate it beyond the duty; that's the evil of the man: but in Weſtminſter-Hall the Kings Prerogative was under the Courts of Juſtice, and is bounded as well as any Acre of Land, or any thing a man hath, as much as any controverſie between party and party: And therefore the Office being lawful in its nature, known to the Nation, certain in it ſelf, and confined and regulated by the Law, and the other Office being not ſo, that was a great ground of the reaſon why the Parliament did ſo much inſiſt upon this Office and Title, not as circumſtantial, but as eſſential; yea, it is the head from whence all the Nerves and Sinews of the Government do proceed, as was well ſaid by the Maſter of the Rolls: If we put a new head, its a queſtion whether thoſe Nerves and Sinews will grow, and be nouriſhed and ſtrengthned with that head. I had ſomething in my thoughts which I had forgot; ſomething of an objection. Why are you ſo pertinacious, or inſiſt ſo much upon this Title? you may not apply all the Powers and Authorities unto the Office of Protector, and then you will give ſatisfaction: I muſt needs ſay, he that makes this objection, makes it but meerely but a Name. If any ſhall ſay, I am content the Protector ſhall have the Office, but not the Name, I think this man is very ſtrait laced; then he puts it meerly upon the word, and truly if there be no more in it, if there be nothing but that word, you have in the ballance with it the deſires of the Parliament, I beſeech you do not break with your Parliament for a word. Another objection is, we have been under the Protector, and the Judges have taken their Office under that Government, and the Judges have taken their meaſure by the Authority of the King, and have taken it to be the ſame with that of King, and ſo go on. I confeſs that the Judges have gone very far that way, p. 19and I may not ſpeak my own opinion of this caſe in this place, but yet it is very well known that there hath been variety of opinions and judgments in this caſe, even from thoſe that have been Judges of the Nation, and I do not take the people upon a very good eſtabliſhment, when there ſhall be no doubtings in thoſe that ſhould be beſt knowing. I would never make a doubt that tends to the ſhaking of foundations, if I ſhould avoid it. The taking of this Office will avoid a doubt, the continuing of the other Office may be more uncertain: I would never make a doubt where it may be dear: perhaps the taking of the other would reduce men to ſatisfaction; there is but a perhaps in the one, and a certainty in the other.

11 Of April, Sir Charles Wooleſley.

NOt onelyonly we that are here, but many honeſt hearts in England, rejoyce to ſee this day, wherein your Highneſs and the Parliament are with ſo much nearneſs and affection debating the ſettlement of the Nation. One reaſon why your Highneſs ſhould take this title offered you by the Parliament, is, becauſe as you ſtand in relation to the old Government you are obliged to the Law, yet have not the advantage of the Law, which the chief Magiſtrate ought to have. The Law knows not a Protector, and requires no obedience from the people to him. The Parliament deſires to ſettle one ſo, that the people may know your duty to them, and they their duty to you. The Parliament find the minds of the people of theſe Nations much ſet upon this Office and Title: God hath by his providence put a general deſire of it in the Nation, and they think in things not unlawful they ought p. 20to hearken, and to be much inclined by the deſires of them that ſent them, and in ſuch things as are for their good, as this is; to be much provoked thereby to the doing of them.

Truly Sir, it hath been much in the thoughts of the Parliament, that the reaſon why things of late have been ſo unſetled throughout in the Nations, hath been becauſe, that to the body of this people, there hath not been a legal head: The well-being of the head, is not more neceſſary to the wholſome conſtitution of the body natural, than a right head is neceſſary to the body politick. I may humbly tell your Highneſs, this Nation hath ever been a lover of Monarchy, and of Monarchy under the Title of a King: the Name and Office hath for above a thouſand years been in this Nation: though they have often changed their Princes, yet never the Name nor Office. 'Tis the great Common Law, that is the Cuſtome of the Nation, approved good by many ages, to have the Office and Name of a King: no new Law that makes any other, can have that validity, which the Cuſtom of ſo many ages hath. Sir, the Parliament doth judge the ſafety of your perſon much concerned to take this Title; and 'tis not your ſelf they look to (though their hearts are full of honour I may ſay it to your Highneſs as can be) but to you as chief Magiſtrate, repreſenting the people, and being head of the Law, and all Magiſtracy; the people hath a ſhare and concernment in you: We ſee this hath been the great encouragements of theſe attempts againſt your perſon, that the Law did not take notice of you as chief Magiſtrate, and that Juries were generally backward to find any guilty for Treaſon, for attempting againſt you: the Parliament cannot think it fit, to have their chief Magiſtrate in ſuch a condition. Your Highneſs hath been pleaſed to call your ſelf (as when you ſpeak p. 21to the Parliament) a ſervant, you are ſo indeed to the people, and 'tis your greateſt honour ſo to be. I hope then Sir, you will give the people leave to name their own ſervant, that is a due you cannot, you will not certainly deny them: their Repreſentatives deſire you will ſerve the People under this Title, and were there no other reaſon, therefore it is the beſt. I beſeech your Highneſs conſider, if you ſhould refuſe this Title the Parliament preſents you with, you do not only deny your ſelf the honour they put upon you, but you deny the Nation, you deny the people their honour, which by right they ought to have. 'Tis the honour and their juſt birth-right, to have a Supream Magiſtrate with the Title of a King. I know Sir, though you can deny your ſelf, yet you will not deny the Nation their due, when their Repreſentative challenge it from you. The Parliament have highly engaged all the good people of this Nation, to make you who are one of them, (and have been in theſe troubles their Head and Leader) to be their King. And certainly Sir, whatever diſſatiſfaction may be in this caſe, it ought not to weigh: if there be any Judge on Earth of the peoples good, 'tis the whole people repreſented together, and what others ſay, it is but by individuals. Sir, the Parliament have hundreds, nay thouſands upon their backs, the good people of the Nation, a quiet peaceable people, with you, and what the Parliament ſhall judge fit, is their duty, and no doubt they will ſubmit: Sir, were there in this matter no other reaſon why you ſhould accept this, I know this alone, which indeed is the greateſt reaſon I can give, would ſway you above any thing, that what is before you is the advice of your great Council the Parliament.

p. 22Lord Commiſſioner Fines.

I Shall offer what I conceive from their debates to be the reaſons why they adviſe your Highneſs to this Title; and ſeeing what is in the fountain muſt be conveyed by ſuch pipes, I ſhall clear the ſtate of the Queſtion: In the firſt place, if I miſtake not, is onelyonly upon name, not upon any thing, not upon the Office of a King, but upon the Title of a King, for the queſtion is, whether the ſame thing ſhall be ſignified by the Office of a King, under the name of a King; or by the Office of a King, under the name of a Protector. Undoubtedly the Office of a King may be more exerciſed under another name, than it may if the powers be not Kingly, though the name be there; he that ſaid he would not do his Maſters will, and yet did it, did it more than he that ſaid he would, and yet did it not: he that hath all the Powers and Authorities of a King, is a King, though he have not the Name. Either there muſt be a diverſity and for any thing that may difference it by the name it ſelf: truly Sir, either this muſt be done, you muſt enumerate all the powers of Protector, or what is left enumerated muſt be the ſame thing as the Law ſays is the duty of a King, and this I think the Judges have determined, this being the clear ſtate of the queſtion, the difference will ariſe meerly upon a name, and the Parliament did not think it agreeable to their wiſdome for them to look upon all the Laws and all the Caſes, and make the name of Protector to ſuit them, or elſe leave it lawleſs and boundleſs, but what was not confined to the power of a King, was confined to the deciſion of the Law. That being ſo, the Parliament thinks it is fit for them to do as all wiſe men do, in making names, they give out names according to the nature of the thing, and either they muſt fit all the Laws to the name, and that is impoſſible, or leave the p. 23name unbounded, and that's intolerable. All, creatures were brought to Adam to give them names, he gave them according to their Natures. And ſo the Parliament conſiders what the thing is that they were about to adviſe your Lordſhip to; the Parliament finde this to be the ſame Government as was before, and if they would have that, why not their old Name? If the thing why not the Title? Truely, it ſeems very reaſonable, that names ſhould be proportioned to the thing; they have found divers Reaſons why the name ſhould be King, becauſe it is a thing clear to all the world, that the people are more willingly obedient to old Things and Names than to new; and ſo far as old things can be retained without danger or inconvenience, it is the Wiſdome and Duty of all Governours to retain them. I remember in the Stories of our Wars with the French, Edw. 3. had aſſiſtance from Flanders. One thing more of the name of the Protector be conſidered within my relation to the Laws of this Land: Every one knows it does not relate to him that hath the chief Magiſtracy, but as he was Tutor or Guardian to another, that's all the Legal Notion or uſe of the name Protector in this Land; and the holding this name, doth hold forth a gap of apprehenſion and expectation, that there may be a change; theſe are in ſubſtance that which I can remember of the Debates of the Parliament.

Lord Com. Liſle.

I Humbly conceive, that in this Title offered to your Highneſs by the Parliament, they do take the ſame care for your Highneſs, as Jethro took for Moſes, they finde the weight of the Government, as it is now upon you, under the title Protector, is a burthen, that will weary both your ſelf and the people likewiſe; and therefore they do deſire your Highneſs will be pleaſed to accept of that Title, that may be an eaſe to your Highneſs p. 24and to the people, the greateſt weight and burthen of government, is when there is a jealouſie between the Prince and the people for want of a right underſtanding, though neither Parliament nor people have a jealouſie of your perſon, yet of the Title they have, for want of a right underſtanding: But if your Highneſs will be pleaſed to accept of the Title that is now offered, all jealouſies will be done away, for they will then underſtand what you are, and truly Sir I think the jealouſie will be higher now, then at firſt when the remonſtrance was offered to you: For the Title of Protector is either the ſame thing in power with the Title of King, or it is ſomething elſe. If it be ſomething elſe, then what the Title of King is when it is confined, and that will raiſe their jealouſie very much. If it be the ſame thing, then there is nothing of difference, but a name, and they will think there is more than a name, if the Parliament do offer it to your Highneſs, and your Highneſs ſhould wave it.

Sir, the Parliament did think that your Highneſs was never able to provide to do juſtice to the Nation for the preſent, nor that peace ſhould be maintained in the Nation for the future, unleſs your Highneſs accept of this Title. National Juſtice does conſiſt in two things, that you do right to the people with relation to their juſt rights in relation to the Parliament, That you do right to the people in relation to their juſt rights according to the Law of the Land. Sir, the Nations rights in Parliament can never be done to the people, unleſs the Parliament hath its ancient right in relation to the Government: and they can never have their right in relation to the Law, unleſs the Laws have their ancient right in relation to the Governours. Sir, the reaſon why the Parliament doth now offer it, as I conceive is this, Sir, they did conſider the caſe of David, it was the proper Title to offer the Title to King David, when the Elders of p. 25Iſrael and the people did Covenant with King David at Hebron. The Remonſtrance offered to your Highneſs is the Covenant of the Three Nations, both for Spiritual and Civil Liberties. If there was a proper time to make David King, when they Covenanted with him at Hebron, it is now a proper time for you to accept this Title, when the Parliament hath brought this with a Covenant for the Three Nations, that relates both to their civil and Spiritual Liberties.

Lord Broghill.

SIR, I can add ſo little to what hath been already ſpoken, that were it not in obedience to command, I ſhould with much more ſatisfaction be ſilent then now ſpeak: but being under an obligation, I may not violate, I ſhall in obedience thereof, preſume to lay my poor thoughts before you; but firſt I ſhall take the boldneſs to ſay, I believe it is a thing impoſſible for any to particularize every individual reaſon, which invites a Parliament to paſs any Vote; for the Parliament is a body conſiſting of many Members, and all of them reliſh thoſe arguments and reaſonings, which are moſt conſonant to every mans apprehenſion, in which there is ſo great variety, that though when a Vote is paſt, we may conclude that Vote is the ſenſe of the Houſe, yet we cannot ſay, that theſe, and none but theſe reaſons produced that reſult: I onelyonly mention this Sir, that whatever I ſhall ſpeak may be conſidered by you, but as my poor apprehenſion; what in ſome degree might have contributed to move the Parliament to petition, and adviſe your Highneſs to aſſume the Title and Office of King: for it would be too high a preſumption in any Member, eſpecially in me above any, to dare aver that what I ſhould now ſay, did only invite the Parliament to give your p. 26Highneſs that Counſel, having thus humbly premiſed what I held my ſelf obliged unto in duty, I ſhall now proceed to acquaint you what in my weak judgment did in ſome meaſure move the Parliament to do what they have done.

Firſt, I humbly conceive, that the Title of King is that which the Law takes notice of, as the Title of Supream Magiſtrate, and no other, and that the old foundations that are good, are better than any new ones, though equally good in their own nature; what is confirmed by time and experience, carries along with it the beſt Trial, and the moſt ſatisfactory ſtamp and authority.

Secondly, It was conſidered too, that it was much better that the Supreme Magiſtrate ſhould be fitted to the Laws that are in being, than that thoſe Laws ſhould be fitted unto him.

Thirdly, The people legally aſſembled in Parliament having conſidered of what Title was beſt for the ſupreme Magiſtrate, did after a ſolemn debate thereof pitch upon that of King, it being that by which the people knew their duty to him, and he the duty of his Office towards them, and both by old and known Laws.

Fourthly, There is hardly any who own Government at all in theſe Nations, but think themſelves obliged to obey the old Laws, or thoſe which your Highneſs and the Parliament ſhall enact. So that if the Supream Magiſtrate of theſe Three Nations be intituled King, all thoſe who reverence the old Laws, will obediently and chearfully accept of him, as that which is ſetled upon the eſtabliſhment they own; and all that own this preſent authority will do the like, becauſe grafted by it, by which none can reſt unſatisfied that think it a duty to obey former Authorities or the preſent.

Fifthly, The former Authorities know no Supream Magiſtrate, but by the Title of King, and this preſent Authority p. 27deſires to know him by no other; which if refuſed, might it not too much heighten our enemies, who may boulſter up their faint hopes, with ſaying to one another, and to thoſe which aſſiſt them, that their chief is not onelyonly under that Title which all paſt Parliaments have approved, but under that Title which even this Parliament does approve likewiſe; and that your head is not known by the former Laws, and has refuſed to be known by that application which even the Parliament, that he himſelf hath called, doth deſire to know him by?

Sixthly, By your Highneſs bearing the Title of King, all thoſe that obey and ſerve you, are ſecured by a Law made long before any of our differences had a being, in the 11th Hen. 7. where a full proviſion is made for the ſafety of thoſe that ſhall ſerve who ever is King: 'tis by that Law that hitherto our enemies have pleaded indemnity, and by your aſſuming what is now deſired, that Law which hitherto they pretended for their diſobedience, tyes them even by their own profeſſion and principles to obedience: and I hope taking off all pretences from ſo numerous a party, may not be a thing unworthy conſideration; That the Law ſeems very rational, for it doth not provide for any particular family or perſon, but for the peace and ſafety of the people by obeying whoever is in that Office, and bears that Title. The end of all Government is to give the people juſtice, and ſafety and the beſt means to obtain that end, is to ſettle a Supream Magiſtrate; it would therefore ſeem very irrational, that the people having obtained the end, ſhould decline that end onelyonly to follow the means, which is but conducing to that end; ſo that if the Title and Office of King be veſted in your Highneſs, and that thereby the people enjoy their rights and peace, it would be little leſs than madneſs, for any of them to caſt off thoſe bleſſings, onelyonly in order to obtain the ſame end under another perſon.

p. 28Seventhly, there is at preſent but a divorce between the pretending King and Imperial Crown of theſe Nations, and we know that perſons divorc'd may marry again; but if the perſon be married to another, it cuts off all hope. Theſe may be ſome of thoſe reaſons, which invited the Parliament to make that deſire, and give that advice to your Highneſs of aſſuming the Title of King. There is another, and a very ſtrong one, which is, that now they have actually given you that advice; and the advices of the Parliaments, are things which always ought, and therefore I am confident will carry with them very great force and Authority: nor doth this advice come ſingly, but accompanied with many other excellent things, in reference to our civil and ſpiritual Liberties, which your Highneſs hath born a juſt and ſignal teſtimony to. It is alſo a Parliament, who have given unqueſtionable proofs of their affection to your Highneſs, and who if liſtned to in this particular, will be thereby encouraged to give you more.

Lord Protector.

I Have very little to ſay to you at this time, I confeſs I ſhall never be willing to deny, or defer thoſe things that come from the Parliament to the Supream Magiſtrate, if they come in the bare and naked Authority of ſuch an Aſſembly as known by that name, and are really the repreſentation of ſo many people, as a Parliament of England, Scotland, and Ireland is: I ſay it ought to have its weight, and it hath ſo, and ever will have with me. In all things a man is free in to anſwer deſires, as coming from Parliaments: I may ſay that, but in as much as the Parliament hath been pleaſed to condeſcend to me ſo far, to do me this honour, a very great one added to the reſt, to give me the advantage of ſo many members of theirs, ſo able, ſo underſtanding the grounds of things; It is I ſay, a very singular honour and favour to p. 29to me; and I confeſs, I wiſh I may, and I hope I ſhall do that becomes an honeſt man to do, in giving an anſwer to theſe things, according to the deſire, that either I have, or God ſhall give me, or I may be helped by reaſoning with you into; and I did not indeed in vain alledge Conſcience to the firſt anſwer I gave, but I muſt ſay, I muſt be a very unworthy perſon, to receive ſuch favour, if I ſhould prevaricate, when I ſaid things did ſtick upon my Conſcience, which I muſt ſtill ſay they do; onelyonly I muſt ſay, I am in the beſt way that I can be for information, I ſhall gladly receive it. Here hath been divers things ſpoken by you to day, with a great deal of judgment and ability, and knowledge; and I think the things, or the arguments, or reaſonings that have been uſed, have been upon theſe three accompts: to ſpeak to the thing ſimply, or in the abſtract notion of the Title, and the poſitive reaſons upon which it ſtands, and then comparatively, both in the thing, and in the foundation of it, which, what it is to ſhew the goodneſs of it comparatively. It is alledged to be ſo much better than what is, and that is ſo much ſhort of doing the work that this will do: and thirdly, ſome things have been ſaid by way of precaution, upon Arguments that are little from the thing, in the nature of it, but are conſiderations from the Temper of the people of the Nation, what will gratifie them, which is ſurely conſiderable; as a;lſo by way of anticipation of me, in my anſwer, by ſpeaking to ſome objections that others have made againſt this thing: Theſe are things in themſelves each of them conſiderable, to anſwer to objections; I know it is a very weighty thing, and to make objections is very eaſie, and that will fall to my part, and I am ſure I ſhall if I make them to men that know ſo well how to anſwer them, becauſe they have in part received them from others, upon the debates already had; but p. 30upon the whole matter, I having as well as I could taken theſe things that have been ſpoken, which truely are to be acknowledged by me to be very learnedly ſpoken, I hope therefore you will give me a little time to conſider of them, when it may be your beſt time for me to return to you, to meet you again, I ſhall leave that to your conſideration.

Lord Whitlock.

Your Highneſs will be pleaſed to appoint your own time.

Lord Protector.

On Munday at Nine of the clock, I will be ready to wait upon you.

His Highneſs Anſwer at the Conference at the Committee at Whitehal, April 13. 1657.

My Lord,

I Think I have a very hard task upon my head, though it be but to give an account of my ſelf, yet I ſee I am beſet on all hands here: I ſay but to give an account of my ſelf, but it is in a buſineſs that is very comprehenſive of others in ſome ſence to us, and, as the Parliament have been pleaſed to make it, all the intereſts of theſe three Nations.

I confeſs, I conſider two things: firſt to return ſome very anſwer to the things that were ſo ably and well ſaid the other day, on behalf of the Parliaments putting that Title in the Inſtrument of ſettlement, I hope it will not be expected that I ſhould anſwer to every thing that was then ſaid, becauſe I ſuppoſe the main things that were ſpoken, were arguments from antient Conſtitutions, and ſettlement by the Laws, of which I am ſure I could never be well skill'd, and therefore muſt ask the more pardon in what I have tranſgreſſed in my practice, or ſhall now tranſgreſs through my ignorance of them in my anſwer to you.

p. 31Your Arguments which I ſay were chiefly upon the Law, ſeems to carry with them a great deal of neceſſary concluſion, to inforce that one thing of Kingſhip; and if your argument come upon me to inforce upon the ground of neceſſity, why then I have no room to anſwer, for what muſt be, muſt be, and therefore I did reckon it much of my buſineſs to conſider whether there were ſuch a neceſſity, or would ariſe ſuch a neceſſity from thoſe arguments.

It was ſaid, that Kingſhip is not a Title but an Office, ſo interwoven with the Fundamental Laws of this Nation, as if they could not, or well could not be executed and exerciſed without, partly (if I may ſay ſo) upon a ſuppoſed ignorance of the Law that it hath of any other Title, it knows no other, neither doth any other know it, the reciprocation is ſaid this Title, or Name, or Office, as you pleaſe to ſay is underſtood in the dimenſions of it, in the power and prerogatives of it, which are by the Law made certain, and the Law can tell when it keeps within compaſs, and when it exceeds its limits, and the Law knowing this, the people can know it alſo, and people do love what they know, and it will noither be pro ſalute populi, nor for our ſafety to obtrude upon them names that they do not! nor cannot underſtand.

It is ſaid alſo, that the people have been always by their Repreſentatives in Parliament, willing to vary names for as much as hath been ſaid before they love ſettlement. And there were two good inſtances given of that, the one in King James his time, about his deſire to alter ſomewhat of the Title, and another in the long Parliament, wherein they being otherwiſe rationally moved to admit of the word Repreſentative inſtead of Parliament, they refuſed it for the ſame reaſon. It hath been ſaid alſo, that the holding to this word doth ſtrengthen the p. 32ſettlement, becauſe it doth not any thing de novo, but reſolves things in their old currant: It is ſaid, it is the ſecurity of the chief Magiſtrate, and that it ſecures all that act under him; truly theſe are the principles of thoſe grounds that were offered the laſt day, ſo far as I do recollect. I cannot take upon me to refel thoſe grounds, for they are ſo ſtrong and rational, but if I ſhall be able to make any anſwer to them, I muſt not grant that they are neceſſarily concluding, but take them only as arguments, that they have perhaps much of conveniency, and probability towards concluding; for if a remedy or expedient may be found that they are not neceſſary, they are not inevitable grounds, and if not neceſſary, and concluding, why then they will hang upon the reaſon of expediency, or conveniency; and if ſo, I ſhall have a little liberty, otherwiſe I am concluded before I ſpeak, and therefore it will behoove me to ſay what I have, why they are not neceſſary concluſions, not that they are, nor that it is (I ſhould ſay) ſo interwoven in the Laws, but that the Laws may not poſſibly be executed to equal to juſtice and equal ſatiſfaction of the people, and equally to anſwer all objections as well without it, as with it; and then when I have done that, I ſhall onelyonly take the liberty to ſay a word or two for my own grounds, and when I have ſaid what I can ſay as to that, I hope you will think a great deal more then I ſay.

Truly though Kingſhip be not a Title but a name of Office that runs through the Law, yet it is not ſo ratione nominis, but from what is ſignified, it is a name of Office plainly implying a Supream Authority, is it more, or can it be ſtretcht to more? I ſay it is a name of Office plainly implying the Supream Authority; and if it be ſo, why then I would ſuppoſe, (I am not peremptory in any thing that is matter of deduction or inference p. 33of my own.) Why then I ſhould ſuppoſe that whatſoever name hath been or ſhall be the name, in which the Supream Authority ſhall act, why, (I ſay) if it had been thoſe, four or five Letters; or whatſoever, or whatſoever elſe it had been, that ſignification goes to the thing, certainly it does, and not to the name, why then there can be no more ſaid, but this, why this hath been fixt, ſo it may have been unfixt, and certainly in the right of the Authority, I mean as a legiſlative power, in the right of the legiſlative power. I think the Authority that could Chriſten it with ſuch a name, could have called it by another name, and therefore it was but derived from that. And certainly they had the diſpoſal of it, and might have had it, they might have detracted, or changed; and I hope it will be no offence to you, to ſay (as the caſe now ſtands) ſo may you; and if it be ſo that you may, why then I ſay, there is nothing of neceſſity in your Argument, but conſideration of expedience of it, I had rather (if I were to chuſe) if it were the natural queſtion, which I hope is altogether out of the queſtion. But I had rather have any name from this Parliament than any name without it, ſo much do I value the Authority of the Parliament, and I believe all men are of my mind, in that I believe the Nation is very much of my mind, though that be an uncertain way of arguing what mind they are of. I think we may ſay it without offence, (for I would give none) though the Parliament be the trueſt way to know what the mind of the Nation is, yet if the Parliament will be pleaſed to give me a liberty to reaſon for my ſelf, and that that be made one Argument, I hope I may urge againſt that, elſe I can freely give a reaſon of my own mind, but I ſay undoubtingly (let us think what we will) what the Parliament ſettles in that which will run through the Law, and will lead the thread of Government through p. 34the Land, as well as what hath been, conſidering that what hath been upon the ſame account, ſave that there hath been ſome long continuance of the thing, it is but upon the ſame account, it had its original ſomewhere, and it was in conſent of the whole, there was the original of it; and conſent of the whole, will I ſay be the needle that will lead the thread through all, and I think no man will pretend right againſt it, or wrong: and (if ſo) then under favour to me, I think all thoſe arguments from the Law are (as I ſaid before) not neceſſary, but are to be underſtood upon the account of conveniency, it is in your power to diſpoſe and ſettle, and before we can have confidence that what you do ſettle, will be as authentick as thoſe things that were before, (eſpecially as to the individual thing) the name or Title upon Parliamentary account, upon Parliamentary, why then I ſay there will be way made (with leave) for me to offer a reaſon or two, to all that hath elſe been ſaid, otherwiſe I ſay my mouth is ſtopt: there are very many inforcements to carry on this thing, I ſuppoſe it will ſtand upon a way of expedience and fitneſs, truly I ſhould have urged one conſideration more that I had forgotten, and that is, not onelyonly to urge the things for reaſon, but for experience, perhaps it is a ſhort one, but it is a true one, (under favour) and is known to you all in the fact of it (under favour) although there hath been no Parliamentary declarations, that the Suprcam Authority going in another name, and under another Title, than King; why it hath been complyed with twice without it. That is, under the Cuſtodes Libertatis Angliae, it hath ſince I exerciſed the place, and truly I may ſay that almoſt univerſal obedience hath been given to all the ranks and ſorts of men to both, and to begin with the higheſt degree of Magiſtracy at the firſt alteration, and when that was the name, and though it p. 35was the name of an inviſible thing, yet the very name (though a new name) was obeyed, did paſs for currant, and was received, and did carry on the juſtice of the Nation. I remember very well that my Lords the Judges were ſomewhat ſtartled, and yet upon conſideration (if I miſtake not) I believe ſo, there being of them without reflection, as able and as learned as have ſat there (though they did I confeſs at firſt demur a little) yet they did receive ſatisfaction, and did act as I ſaid before. I profeſs it, for my own part, I think I may ſay it, ſince the beginning of that change, I would be loath to ſpeak any thing vainly, but ſince the beginning of that change unto this day, I do not think in ſo many years thoſe that were called, (and worthily ſo accounted) Halcyon days of peace in 20 Eliz. and King James, and King Charles time: I do not think, but that the Laws did proceed with as much freedom and juſtice, with leſs private ſollicitation either from that that was called then ſo, or ſince I came to the Government; I do not think (under favour) that the Laws have had a more free exerciſe, more uninterrupted by any hand of power, the Judge leſs ſolicited by Letters or private interpoſitions either of my own or other mens, in double ſo many years in all thoſe times of peace: and if more of my Lords the Judges were here than now are, they could tell what to ſay to what had been done ſince, and therefore I ſay (under favour) theſe two experiences do manifeſtly ſhew, that it is not a Title, though ſo interwoven with the Laws, that makes the Law to have its free paſſage and do its office without interruption, (as we think) but that if a Parliament ſhall determine that another Name ſhall run through the Laws, I believe it may run with as free a paſſage as this: which is all that I have to ſay upon that head.

And if this be ſo, then truly other things may fall p. 36under a more indifferent conſideration, and then I ſhall arrive at ſome iſſue to anſwer for my ſelf in this great matter, and all this while nothing that I ſhall ſay doth any way determine againſt my reſolution, or thoughts againſt the Parliament, but really and honeſtly, and plainly, conſidering what is fit for me to anſwer. The Parliament deſires to have this Title, it hath ſtuck with me and yet doth ſtick, and truly although I hinted the other day, that it is thought that your arguments to me did partly give poſitive grounds for what was to be done, and comparative grounds, ſaying that which you were pleaſed to do, and I gave no cauſe for that I know of, that is to compare the effects of Kingſhip with ſuch a name as I for the preſent bear with Protectorſhip, I ſay I hope it will not be underſtood, that I do contend for the name or any name or any thing, but truly and plainly (if I ſpeak as in the Lords preſence) I in all things right as a perſon under the diſpoſition of the providence of God, neither naming one thing nor other, but only anſwering to this Name or Title; for I hope I do not deſire to give a rule to any body, becauſe I have profeſſed I have not been able, and I have ſaid truly I have not been able to give one to my ſelf, but I would be underſtood in this, I am a man ſtanding in the place I am in, which place I undertook not ſo much out of the hope of doing any good, as out of a deſire to prevent miſchief and evil which I did ſee was eminent in the Nation. I ſay we were running headlong into confuſion and diſorder, and would neceſſarily run into blood, and I was paſſive to thoſe that deſired me to undertake the place which now I have, I ſay not ſo much of doing good, which a man may lawfully, if he deal deliberately with God and his own Conſcience, a man may, I ſay, lawfully if he deal deliberately p. 37with God and his own Conſcience, a man may lawfully, as the caſe may be (though the caſe is very tickle) deſire a great place to do good in. I profeſs I had not that apprehenſion when I undertook the place that I could do much good, but I did think that I might prevent eminent evil, and therefore I am not contending for one name compared with another, and therefore have nothing to anſwer to any arguments, that were uſed in giving preference to Kingſhip or Protectorſhip, for I ſhould almoſt think that any name were better than my name, and I ſhould altogether think, any perſon fitter than I am, for any ſuch buſineſs: and I complement not (God knows it) but this I ſhould ſay, that I do think from my very heat, that in your ſetling of the peace and liberties of this Nation, which cries as loud upon you as ever Nation did; for ſomewhat that may beget a conſiſtance: otherwiſe the Nation will fall to pieces, and in that as far as I can, I am ready to ſerve not as a King, but as Conſtable, for truely I have, as before God, thought it often, that I could not tell what my buſineſs was, nor what I was in the place I ſtood, ſave comparing it with a good Conſtable, to keep the peace of the Pariſh, and truly this hath been my content and ſatisfaction in the troubles that I have undergone, that yet you have peace, why now truly (if I may adviſe) I wiſh to God you may but be ſo happy as to keep peace ſtill if you cannot attain to theſe perfections, as to do this, I wiſh to God we may have peace, (that do I) but the fruits of Righteouſneſs are ſhown in meekneſs, (a better thing than we are aware of) I ſay therefore I do judge for my ſelf, there is no ſuch neceſſity of the thing, for the other names may do as well, I judge for my ſelf, I muſt ſay a little, I think I have ſomewhat of Conſcience to anſwer as to this matter, why I cannot undertake this Name, why p. 38truly I muſt needs go a little out of the way to come to my reaſons, and you will be able to judge of them, when I have told you them; and I ſhall deal ſeriouſly, as before God; if you do not all of you, I am ſure ſome of you do, and it behoves me to ſay, I know my calling from the firſt to this day: I was a perſon that from my firſt employment was ſuddenly preferred and lifted up from leſſer truſts to greater, from my firſt being a Captain of a Troop of Horſe, and I did labour (as well as I could) to diſcharge my Truſt, and God bleſſed me as it pleaſed him, and I did truly and plainly, and then in a way of fooliſh ſimplicity (as it was judged by very great and wiſe men, and good men too) deſired to make of my inſtruments to help me in this work; and I will deal plainly with you, I had a very worthy friend then, and he was a very noble perſon, and I know his memory was very grateful to all.

Mr. John Hamden at my firſt going out into this Engagement (I ſaw) their men were beaten at every hand; I did indeed, and deſired him that he would make ſome additions to my Lord Eſſex's Army, of ſome new Regiments, and I told him I would be ſerviceable to him, in bringing ſuch men in, as I thought had a ſpirit that would do ſomething in the work: this is very true that I tell you, God knows I lye not; your Troops, ſaid I, are moſt of them old decayed Servingmen and Tapſters, and ſuch kind of Fellows; and ſaid I, their Troops are Gentlemens Sons, younger Sons, and perſons of Quality; do you think that the ſpirits of ſuch baſe and mean Fellows will be ever able to encounter Gentlemen, that have Honour, and Courage, and Reſolution in them? Truly, I preſented him in this manner conſcientiouſly, and truly I did tell him, you muſt get men of a ſpirit: and take it not ill what I ſay (I know you will not) of a ſpirit that is p. 39likely to go on as far as Gentlemen will go, or elſe I am ſure you will be beaten ſtill: I told him ſo, I did truly. He was a wiſe and worthy perſon, and he did think that I talked a good notion, but an impracticable one; truly I told him I could do ſomewhat in it, I did ſo, and truly I muſt needs ſay that to you (impart it to what you pleaſe) I raiſed ſuch men as had the fear of God before them, and made ſome Conſcience of what they did, and from that day forward I n uſt ſay to you, they were never beaten, and wherever they were engaged againſt the Enemy they beat continually; and truely this is matter of praiſe to God, and it hath ſome inſtruction in it to own men that are religious and godly, and ſo many of them as are peaceably, and honeſtly and quietly diſpoſed to live within Government, as will be ſubject to thoſe Goſpel Rules of obeying Magiſtrates, and living under Authority; I reckon no godlineſs without this Circle: but without this ſpirit, let it pretend what it will, it is diabolical, it is deviliſh, it is from diabolical ſpirits, from the height of Jothams wickedneſs; why truely I need not ſay more than to apply it thus.

I will be bold to apply this to this purpoſe, becauſe it is my all, I could ſay as all the world ſays, and run headily upon any thing; I muſt tender this to you, as a thing that ſways with my Conſcience, or elſe I were a Knave and a Deceiver. I tell you there are ſuch men in this Nation, that godly men of the ſame ſpirit, men that will not be beaten down with a worldly nor carnal ſpirit, while they keep their integrity: I deal plainly and faithfully with you, that I cannot think that God would bleſs in undertaking of any thing that will juſtly and with cauſe grieve them, that they will be troubled without cauſe; I muſt be a Slave if I ſhould comply with any ſuch humour, I ſay that are honeſt p. 40men, and faithful men, and true to the great things of the Government, to wit, the Liberty of the people, giving them that is due to them, and protecting this Intereſt, I think verily God will bleſs you for it: but if that I know (as indeed I do) that very generally good men do not ſwallow this Title, (though really it is no part of their goodneſs) to be unwilling to ſubmit to what a Parliament ſhall ſettle over them; yet I muſt ſay, that it is my duty and my Conſcience to beg of you, that there may be no hard things put upon me; things I mean hard to them, that they cannot ſwallow: If the Nation may as well be provided for without theſe things that I have Printed to you, as according to my apprehenſion, it may, I think truly it will be no ſin in you, it will be to you as it was to David in another eaſe; no grief of heart to yours, that you have a tenderneſs, even poſſibly, if it be their weakneſs, to the weakneſs of thoſe that have integrity and honeſty, and uprightneſs, and are not carried away with the hurries that I ſee ſome are, who think that their vertue lies in deſpiſing Authority, oppoſing it: I think you will be the better able to root out of this Nation that ſpirit and principle; and it is as deſirable as any thing in this world, by complying, indulging, and being patient to the weakneſs and infirmities of men that have been faithful, and have bled all along in this Cauſe, and are faithful, and will oppoſe all oppoſitions; I am confident of it, to the things that are the fundamentals in your Government, in your ſettlement, for civil and Goſpel Liberties.

I confeſs, for it behoves me to deal plinly with you, I muſt confeſs, I would ſay, I hope I may be underſtood in this, for indeed I muſt be tender, what I ſay to ſuch an audience as this is, I ſay I would be underſtood, that in this Argument I do not make Paralel, between men of a different mind and a Parliament which ſhall have p. 41their deſires; I know there is no compariſon, nor can it be urged upon me, that my words have the leaſt colour that way, becauſe the Parliament ſeems to give liberty to me to ſay any thing to you; as that, that is a tender of my humble reaſons and judgment, and opinion to them; and if I think they are ſuch, and will be ſuch to them, and are faithful ſervants, and will be ſo to the Supream Authority, and the Legiſlative whereſoever it is: if I ſay, I ſhould not tell you, knowing their minds to be ſo, I ſhould not be faithful, if I ſhould not tell you ſo, to the end you may report it to the Parliament: I will ſay ſomething for my ſelf, for my own mind, I do profeſs it, I am not a man ſcrupulous about words, or names, or ſuch things I have not; but as I have the word of God, and I hope I ſhall ever have, for the rule of my Conſcience, for my informations: ſo truely, men that have been led in dark paths, through the providence and diſpenſation of God; why, ſurely it is not to be objected to a man, for who can love to walk in the dark, but providence doth often ſo diſpoſe. And though a man may impute his own folly and blindneſs to providence ſinfully, yet it muſt be at my peril: the caſe may be, that it is the providence of God that doth lead men in darkneſs; I muſt needs ſay, I have had a great deal of experience of Providence, and though it is no rule without or againſt the word, yet it is a very good expoſitor of the word in many caſes. Truely the Providence of God hath laid aſide this Title providentially de facto, and this not by ſuddain humour or paſſion, but it hath been by iſſue of as great deliberation as ever was in a Nation, it hath been the iſſue of ten or twelve years Civil War, wherein much blood hath been ſhed; I will not diſpute the juſtice of it, when it was done, nor need I now tell you what my opinion is in the caſe, were it de novo to be done, but if it be at all diſputable, and that a man comes and finds that God p. 42in his ſeverity hath not onelyonly irradicated a whole family, and thruſt them out of the Land for reaſons beſt known to himſelf, and hath made the iſſue and cloſe of that, to be the very irradication of a Name or Title, which de facto is, it was not done by me nor by them that tendred me the Government that now I act in, it was done by the Long Parliament, that was it, and God hath ſeemed providential, not onelyonly to ſtrike at the Family, but at the Names, and as I ſaid before de facto it is blotted out, it is a thing caſt out by an Act of Parliament, 'tis a thing that hath been kept out to this day, and (as Jude ſaith in another caſe) ſpeaking of abominable ſins that ſhould be in the latter times, he doth likewiſe when he comes to exhort the Saints, he tells them they ſhould hate even the garments ſpotted with the fleſh. I beſeech you think not, that I bring this as an argument to prove any thing, God hath ſeemed ſo to deal with the perſons, and with the Family, but he blaſted the Title, and you know when a man comes (à parte poſt) to reflect, and ſee this is done, and laid in the duſt, I can make no concluſion but this, they may have ſtrong impreſſion upon ſuch weak men as I am, and perhaps, (if there be any ſuch) upon weaker men it will be ſtronger: I will not ſeek to ſet up that which Providence hath deſtroyed, and laid in the duſt, and I would not build Jericho again, and this is ſomewhat to me, and to my Judgment and Conſcience, that it is true, it is that that hath an awe upon my ſpirit, and I muſt confeſs as the times are, they are very fickle, very uncertain, nay, (God knows) you had need have a great deal of faith, to ſtrenghten you in your work, and all aſſiſtance, you had need to look at Settlement, I would rather I were in my grave, than hinder you in any thing, that may be for Settlement for the Nation, for the Nation needs, and never needed it more, and therefore out of the love and honour I bear you, I am for ever p. 43bound to do, whatever becomes of me, I am ever bound to acknowledge you have dealt moſt honourably and worthily with me, and lovingly, and had reſpect for one that deſerves nothing: indeed out of the love and faithfulneſs I bear you, and out of the ſence I have of the difficulty of your works, I would not have you loſe any help that may ſerve you, that may ſtand in ſtead to you, but would be a ſacrifice that there might be (ſo long as God ſhall pleaſe to let this Parliament ſit) a harmony, and better, and good underſtanding between all of you, and (whatſoever any man thinks) it equally concerns one man as another to go on to ſettlement; and where I meet with any that is of another mind, indeed I could almoſt curſe him in my heart, and therefore to the end I may deal heartily and freely, I would have you loſe nothing that may ſtand you inſtead in this way. I would adviſe you, that if there be any of a froward and unmannerly, or womaniſh ſpirit, I would not have you loſe them, I would not that you ſhould loſe any ſervant or friend, that may help in this work, that they ſhould be offended by that, that ſignifies no more to me than as I told you, that is, I do not think the thing neceſſary, I do not, I would not that you ſhould looſe a friend for it, if I ſhould help you to many, and multiply my ſelf into many, I would be to ſerve you in ſettlement, and therefore would not that any, eſpecially any of theſe, that indeed perhaps are men that do think themſelves engaged to continue to you, and to ſerve you, ſhould be any ways diſobliged from you.

The truth is, I did make that my concluſion to you at the firſt, when I told you what method I would ſpeak to you in, I may ſay, that I cannot with conveniency p. 44to my ſelf, nor good to this ſervice, that I wiſh ſo well to, ſpeak out all my arguments in order to ſafety, and in order in tendency to an effectuall carrying on of this work, I ſay I do not think it fit to uſe all the thoughts I have in my mind, as to that point of ſafety, but I ſhall pray to God Almighty that he would direct you to do what is according to his Will, and this is that poor account I am able to give of my ſelf in this thing.

16. April, Lord Chief-Juſtice Glynne.

The Name and Office eſſential to Settlement.

FIrſt, Becauſe it is known to the Law, his Duty known in reference to the people, and the peoples Duty known in reference to him, this cannot be tranſmitted to another name, without much labour, great hazard, if it may at all. To go by individuals, and reckon up all the Duties and Powers that a King by our Laws hath in reference to his Truſt towards the people, and the Duty of the people towards him, is a work of ſo great labour, that it would require months, yea years, if not ages.

Secondly, To apply its relative, talis qualis would introduce theſe difficulties. Firſt it would be a new thing, how it would prove is but gueſt, and its the Foundation-ſtone, its unſafe to put it to a hazard, when you have a ſafe one. Secondly, Thoſe Certainties, and Securities that accompany that Title are incident by the ancient Laws and Cuſtoms of the Nations; and that which the other Office can have, are introductive, and given him de novo from this Parliament, as their ancient inheritance, that can claim but by a new title of purchaſe.

Thirdly, The People and your Highneſs looſe the beſt Title, both to their Liberty and your Rights, which is the Law, antient Cuſtome, and Ʋſage, and claim it only p. 45but upon the ſtrength of the Parliament; but if you take it as a King, you have the ſtrength of both.

Fourthly, If you aſſume any other name, and have the rights given you by Parliament, it may ſeem as if the people had loſt their ancient rights, and had need of new ones to be created by this Parliament.

Fifthly, The aſſumption of the Title of King, is without need of any other Authority to protect the people, and bind the people to obey you.

Sixthly, If you ſhould take the name of Protector, or any other new Title, whatſoever Authority is applyed thereto, is but grafting upon a ſtock that is new, and doubtful whether it will bear the fruits well, and ſtill liable to former objections without doors.

Seventhly, If you take the Title of King, the worſt affected cannot object againſt Authority, or at all againſt the Parliament, as the Donor.

16 April, Maſter of the Rolls.

IT is certain that all Governments in themſelves may be good, for none as male in ſe, but the rule that hath always been obſerved, that the moſt neceſſary and prudent courſe to govern a Nation, muſt be taken from that proportion which is moſt ſuitable to the nature and diſpoſition of the people that are governed, if this be the general rule always in the world, we may well draw this argument: both from an abſolute neceſſity, and ex neceſſitate conſequentis alſo. The chief Governour in a ſetled Government, being obliged to do for the good of his people, not onelyonly quoad bonum ſed quoad optimum, then the conſideration that will follow properly here will be, whether the name King, which in the judgment of the Law, implies the Office, be not the beſt Government for the peoples ſafety, but ex neceſſitate p. 46cauſa, & neceſſitate conſequentis, to explain this, it muſt be premiſed that when we ſpeak of King, we muſt take the difference between the perſon dignified with the Name, and the Name it ſelf; for this muſt be taken for a ſure ground, the word King is a Name, as it is a word which the Law doth look upon, ſo it hath its proper Baſis and foundation upon the Law, and is as ancient as the Law is; now, the Perſon of the King is a name that hath its dignity and foundation from the word King, as ex neceſſitate conſequentis, becauſe in reaſon a man muſt be uſed to exerciſe that Authority which proceeds from that name. Theſe things being very clear, by the fundamental grounds of the Law, if then we examine the foundation of things, according to the rules of the Law, it is manifeſt that the name King, the Laws, Rights, Property and Liberties of the people, and alſo Parliaments themſelves, have but one foundation, and have the original preſcription, and ancient cuſtomes, that is, cuſtomes time out of mind, ſo that in judgment of Law the Three, the King, the Law, and the Parliament, are the Parties of the Government of this Nation, which having the Baſis and foundation from preſcription, creates this form of Government in this Nation, which is not a form in the vulgar acceptation of the word (Form) but it is the form of Government ſetled in this Nation, that is of the eſſential part, and hereby the Law forma dat eſſe. Then to me it is an impoſſible thing that any Act of Parliament, even without a deſtruction to the eſſential part of the Government, can place that Office in another name (be what it will) which naturally wants the foundation and ground of that power and Office which that name hath.

Firſt, Becauſe the alteration deſtroyes the foundation, p. 47which is Preſcription, and annexes to it a name that the Law of the Land hath no acquaintance with.

Secondly, It ſets all Laws, Liberties, and what is dear to us upon a new Foundation, as to the People; for whatſoever is created by an Act, cannot have Life and Authority but from that Act, and ſhall never look back to its firſt Original Conſtitution; and it takes from the People the Rules and Grounds which they have known by Experience, and ſends them to ſeek them in a Power, which no Wit of Man can ſuddenly apprehend the bounds and limits, when ſo many Doubts may ariſe, even in the old Foundation, which Experience and Time hath excellently refined from theſe Grounds: I may ſafely ſay, That there never was but one KING in England from the firſt Foundation of Kingship, and can ſafely conclude there will never be more, and that there have been many, and more I hope will be, whoſe Perſons ſhall exerciſe that Office: For the Law doth poſitively affirm, The King never dies; and that the reaſon is, becauſe its Original is grounded upon the ſame Foundation, which is ſo conjoyned together, that no Death can make a partition: And the difference is, The King never dies; but the name and thing hath a kinde, in a vulgar ſence, of an Immortality, if we conſider the continuance of the word and perſon that is inveſted with that Name by the judgment of them, is not ſaid to die; but to deviſe, which is to depoſite, and to lay up the Name and Title of the King. Indeed to depoſite it in another hand, all which proceeds in Judgments of Law, ex neceſſitate conſequentis, and from the neceſſary Inconveniencies and Miſchiefs that may ariſe to the People by Interregna, and by other Conſequences, that would be too long to relate; there is a famous Example in 1 Hen. 7.

p. 48The common ground that is taken by the acceſſion of the Office and Dignity to the perſon, but the true ground is the name, and the Office is become part of the body of the Law, which ſhould puniſh the offences, againſt which it was committed, which doth prove both the neceſſities of the name, and the neceſſary relation there is between the Name and the Law, and it is a neceſſary deduction that the Name King is the thing wherein the Office and Power is placed, and therefore not practicable by any Statute or Act of Parliament, to divide the Power and Office from the Name, and transfer that power without the Name; the word King hath ſuch eſſential reference to the Law, that it never looks to the perſon, to make that the ground of the eſſence, but if it had been the Name, the Law was ſatisfied, and therefore it never examined the right of the Perſon, how he became inveſted with the power, but de facto whether he were or no, and if ſo, whether de facto or de jure, it hath the ſame influence upon the peoples right, and the ſame advantages to the chief Governour.