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Independency Further Proved to be a Schism · Daniel Cawdry

Independency Further Proved to be a Schism, Chapter 1

CHAP. I.

IT is very true, which the reverend Doctor ſaies; That conſidering the various intereſts of Parties at difference, there is no great ſucceſſe to be promiſed, by the management of controverſies, though with never ſo much evidence and conviction of truth. The preſent Sectaries of all ſorts, give a ſad inſtance of this, not one of a thouſand being reclaimed from their errours, by the cleareſt demonſtrations of truth, but rather growing worſe and worſe, deceiving and being deceived, as the Apoſtle did foretell us. There are therefore other ends propounded to themſelves, by thoſe that undertake them, As the rendring an homage to the truth, the ſafegarding of ſome weaker profeſſors, from the ſophiſms and violence of adverſaries, &c. Which its well, if they can & do attain. How little ſucceſſe the reverend Doctor expected, he told us in his former Treatiſe of Schiſm, and now again profeſſes, (as well he might, upon ſuch principles) That he was ſo far from hoping, to ſee ſpeedily any viſible fruits, of the efficacy of the truth, he had managed, that he promiſed himſelf a vigorous oppoſition; onelyonly, he was not able to conjecture, from what hand the firſt aſſault of it would ariſe: That is, Whether from Papiſts, Epiſcopall, or Preſbyterians. The truth is, he hath given them all a provocation, to an oppoſition, by his new notion of Schiſm, (beſide others) and I a little wonder, that none other have done it, unleſs it be upon the old Maxim, Contra negantem princ…pia non eſt diſputandum. The notion of ſchiſm, in the nature of the word, & uſe of it, by all parties hitherto, being a breach of union, in what kindMar. ….21. or degree ſoever. It was well obſerved by a learned man,foreign. The rent is made worſe that the reverend Doctor's notion of Schiſm was this: If my coat be rent, and hang together by ſome threads; it is a Schiſm; but if a piece be quite torn off, it is none. And indeed, if Schiſm be onelyonly a difference, in a particular Congregation, (as the reverend Doctor will have it) and no ſeparation from a true Church, be juſtly accounted a Schiſm, (as he profeſſes to hold) the generall agreement of all the forenamed parties, in the common notion of Schiſm, and their concernment in it, (all of them ſuppoſing themſelves, to be truly conſtituted Churches) call for an oppoſition to him, for denying himſelf and party to be Schiſmaticall, in renouncing of communion with them, and ſeparating from them all; for they all concur, in the antient and received notion of Schiſm, viz. A breach of union, or a cauſleſſe ſeparation, from a truly ſtated Church. The difference between them is onelyonly this, which of them hath the true Church ſtate; which if it be determined, they all agree in the concluſion: A breach of union with, or a cauſeleſſe ſeparation from ſuch a Church ſo ſtated, is a Schiſm. Thus the Romaniſts argued, as himſelf propounded their argument of Schiſm, pag. 189. thus the Epiſcopall party, thus the Preſbyterians. But it ſeems, the reverend Doctor conjectured aright, that the oppoſition was like to ariſe from ſome of the Preſbyterian party, though he miſtook the reaſons; The prejudices that they might fear themſelves, and intereſts, obnoxious to, by a reception and ſtabliſhment of that his notion of Schiſm: Which what they could be, I cannot conjecture. If his notion were true, it might be as uſefull to them, as to himſelf, in freeing them alſo from the charge of Schiſm by others: But if it prove falſe, (as it ſeems to me, and many) it will be prejudicious to our common cauſe, againſt the other parties, to whoſe charge of Schiſm he did oppoſe it. Let him draw up his argument againſt them, thus I ſuppoſe it muſt be framed: All Schiſm (in the Scripture Eccleſiaſticall ſenſe) is a diviſion in a particular Church: But we have made no diviſion in (or ſeparation from) any particular Church, (one of you pleading your ſelves to be the Catholick the other a Nationall Church), Ergo, We are no Schiſmaticks: They would quickly deny his major propoſition, (for which he offers no proof) Schiſm, in proper notion of the word, and intention of the Scripture, is of larger, and more generall extent; for any breach of union with a true Church, of any degree. And if the propoſition be not generall, the Syllogiſm is peccant in the very form, and ſo a Sophiſm.

But not content with that former reaſon,Page. 4. he (ſleightingly enough) gives another: Mens contentedneſſe, to make uſe of their quietneſſe, in reference to Popery, Socinianiſm, Arminianiſm — confirmed ſuch thoughts in me. Whereas it is evident, that the men of the preſbyterian party, (even country Miniſters, who want Academicall opportunities) have done, and do as much conteſt againſt thoſe, and other errours, as himſelf, or any of his party. Few of the men of his way, having appeared in oppoſition to them, (though too much for toleration of them) but contented to make uſe of their quietneſſe, to propogate their own deſigne of Independentiſm; not ſo much as caring to anſwer, or take notice, of what hath been written againſt it. His ſurmiſes (which he charges me with hereafter) are as ſtrong, as his conjectures; That his Treatiſe ſhould be refuted, he heard it was judged neceſſary at ſundry conventions. And page 9. talks of my adviſers; and once more, of the promoters of my work page 181. whereof I know nothing. I can profeſſe, that I expected and hearkned, that ſome more able hand would have undertaken it; and finding none willing, I ventured my own credit and thoughts, to the vindication of the truth of our Churches and Miniſtry, to ſome good progreſs, before any one man knew I had undertaken it. What acceptance his Treatiſe found, with many learned and godly perſons, (except of his own way) I cannot conjecture: But this was the reſentment of it, by all that I met with, before I ever ſaw his Book: That by his new notions of Schiſm, and conſtitution of a particular Church, he had not onelyonly freed his party from the charge of Schiſm; but alſo unchurcht our Churches, and unminiſtred our Miniſters, and denyed our Ordination. And every one wiſhed, that ſome body would undertake it, as injurious to our Churches; but none would intereſt himſelf therein. I muſt confeſſe my own preſumption, in what I have done, as taking the work out of ſome learneder hands, whom it more concern'd to anſwer it. The originall charge of Schiſm upon our Church, (which the reverend Doctor took upon him to anſwer) being directed onelyonly to the two Univerſities, whoſe cauſe the reverend Doctor hath I think betrayed, by his new notion of Schiſm, as if that were the judgment and anſwer of them all. As ſome others have found out, A new way of juſtifying our ſeparation from Rome, on principles of limiting the juriſdiction of that Biſhop, to a peculiar Patriarchate, and the like; as the reverend Doctor told us, of Schiſm. page 192. Which new waies our cauſe needs not, but is eaſily defended without them; and our plea will not be ſhaken to eternity, as the reverend Doctor aſſerted, page 192. of Schiſm. But he conjecturing right, (as he eaſily might, being told it) of the party in generall, and of the particular perſon, that was like, and ready to undertake him; he was as confident, That he might relieve himſelf from his fears, and loathing to be engaged in thoſe conteſts, by theſe enſuing conſiderations which I ſhall briefly conſider.

Page 5.1. He was fully perſwaded, that what he had written, was, for the ſubſtance of it, the truth of God, which he had good ſecurity he had in weakneſſe maintained, page 3. 1. No doubt, but he might fully ſo perſwade himſelf; and what Heretick, learned or unlearned, does not ſo believe? But what was my deſigne, but to undeceive him in this perſwaſion, as to many things by him aſſerted? 2. What was that truth, he was ſo fully perſwaded of? That Schiſm, in the places of the Corinthians, where the word is onelyonly found, was a difference or diviſion in a particular Church, who ever denyed it? or what is this to the generall nature of Schiſm? Is that all that Schiſm imports? Or, proves it, that breach of the union of Churches, or cauſleſſe ſeparation from true Churches, is no Schiſm? What force is there (I appeal to his Logick and Divinity too) in this conſequence, Schiſm, in the places cited, was a diviſion in a particular Church; Ergo, Nothing is a Schiſm but that; in Scripture notion. Yet this notion, …he reverend Doctor oft makes uſe of, …o avoid the charge of Schiſm, upon …imſelf and party, as I have elſe-where …hewed.

2. He had (he ſaies) laid in proviſion, againſt all contending about words, expreſſions, &c. and every thing, though true, that might be ſeparated from the life or ſubſtance, of the notion or truth pleaded for: viz. The ſentence afore noted, concerning the notion of Schiſm. He had indeed laid in a politick petition of the queſtion, that all Readers would be ſo favourable, as to grant him his new notion, or elſe he could expect no good iſſue of his Treatiſe; for ſo he profeſſed, pag. 30. Unleſſe men will condeſcend ſo to ſtate it upon the evidence tendred, I ſhall not hope to prevail much, in the proceſſe of this diſcourſe: And ſuch I think hath been the ſucceſſe. Can any rationall man be taken with this inference? This evill mentioned by the Apoſtle, is Schiſm; therefore nothing elſe is ſo? Yes, (which to me is a wonder, in ſo wiſe a man) the reverend Doctor is convinced by it, and reſolved ſo to continue; for ſo he ſaid, Having before aſſerted this to be the chief and onelyonly ſeat of the Doctri… of Schiſm,Of ſchiſm. pag. 42. I am inclinable ſo to do and this I am reſolved of, that unle… any man can prove, that ſomethi… elſe is termed Schiſm, by ſome divin… Writer, &c. I will be at liberty, fro… admitting it ſo to be. Somethin… was ſaid to this in my former Tract page 39. I add a little more; 1. His aſſertion, that this was the chief and onelyonly place of the word Schiſm, in the Eccleſiaſticall ſenſe, was granted him; bu… that it was the chief and onelyonly place of the Doctrine of Schiſm, is now denyed him; becauſe the Apoſtle did here indeed, reprove and check them for their Schiſm and diviſions, but intended not to ſpeak to the doctrine, or full nature of Schiſm; that muſt be elſewhere enquired and found out, either from the notion of the word foreign, or other words of equivalent ſenſe. 2. He requires, that ſomething elſe be termed Schiſm, by ſome divine Writer; that is he expects, that he muſt have the ſame word, or elſe, though it have the ſame nature, and be equally criminous, he is reſolved, nothing elſe is Schiſm, but a diviſion in a particular Church, contrary to his own grant. page 21. of ſchiſm; "That that alone ſhalbe eſteemed Schiſm, which is in ſcripture ſo called; or (marke that) which hath the entire nature of that, which …s there ſo called. But (ſay I) other …ords in other places, have the entire …ture of Schiſm, viz diviſion in a …hurch, & ſomething more i. e. ſeparati… from it; Ergo, that may be eſteemed …hiſme, as I inſtanced in other words …d places; to which the Reverend …octor ſayes nothing.

3. "The whole weight of the little pile, turning on one ſingle hinge and that viſible and conſpicuous, &c. he promiſed himſelfe, that he who undertook it, would be farre from paſſing it by, and ſet himſelfe to the ſuperſtructure, &c. This he repeats gaine p. 76. That he laid the great weight of the whole, upon this notion of Schiſm; that in that only place of the Corinthians, there is mention of Schiſm in an Eccleſiaſticall ſenſe. &c. To which I ſay, 1. If his hinge of the whole, was ſo viſible …nd conſpicuous, I cannot but wonder; …hat I alone ſhould not ſee that, which to every conſidering perſon that ſhould but view the Treatiſe,pag. 6. would be evident. And that he ſhould ſo o… ten charge me with ignorance of h… deſigne; of which anon. 2. I was … farre from paſſing it by, that I grant… them this to be the onelyonly place; b… not the full importance and nature … the word; yea I endeavoured to ſhe… that there was a degree of Separation, that place, as to ſome Miniſters and O… dinances; which how he hath taken away we ſhall heare anone, 3. Granting hi… his ſenſe in that place, I proved his co… ſequence to be naught The Schiſ… amongſt the Corinthians, was a div… ſion in a particular Church; Fro… nothing elſe is ſchim, in the ſcriptu… ſenſe. Which conſequence, all conſ… dering and rationall men, that I ſpeak with; do wonder to fall from ſo grea… a Logitian and Divine. 4. This Notion … his, I knew well, was the Hinge or Ce… tre of the whole ſuperſtructure; b… the Circumference or lines, by way … conſectaries,*He ſayes his firſt Chapter of the nature of Schiſm; contained the foundation of many inferences Page. 52. extended to a great… diſtance, as thus: If Schiſm be onelyonly Difference in a particular Church, th… his party are no Schiſmaticks; in ſep… rating from, 1. The Church of Rom… 2. From our Nationall, 3. Or Presb… terian Churches. Now the Anteced… being by me demoliſhed, as the hinge ſuch conſequences; the whole ſuper…ucture is fallen with its owne weight, …d his whole Treatiſe with it; As wiſer …en then my ſelfe do think.

4. "He expreſly waved mens Judgment, and Authority, old or late; and ſo promiſed himſelf, ſecurity from ſuch diſturbance, &c. To which I …ſwered, The Concurring iudgment of all …en, in all ages, of all perſwaſions,Page. 4. …rryes weight with it, eſpecially when … agrees with expreſſe Scripture; or re…ular and rationall deduction: to which …e profeſſed to ſtand or fall, Cap. 1.5.3. To which he ſayes juſt nothing.

5. Whereas he had confin'd himſelfe to a bare defenſative of ſome,Page. 6. not intending to caſt others from their places, (unleſſe the Roman party) he had ſome expectations that peace-loving godly men, would not be troubled, that an apparent immunity from a crime, was, without their prejudice, manifeſted in behalfe of their brethren, &c. But he muſt know that his defence of ſome from the crime of Schiſm, as it was too weak to bear it off, by the bare Notion of Schiſm by him inverted; ſo it did caſt an aſperſion upon others of a falſe Ac…uſation, charging them with Schiſme; and b… ſides, in the conſequences of that N… tion, did caſt others (beſide the Rom… party) from their places, as no Church no members of a Church, as ſhall a… peare ere long: but I appeal any of rea… godlineſſe, and indifferent judgmen… to determine whether he himſelfe di… not blow the Coal that gave fire to th… diſſenſion, by his new notions o… Schiſm, and of a particular Church, &c

6. But he addes this more to hi… thoughts,pag. 8. That he obviated the facility of tendring a diſcourſe to th… purpoſe; by its being led out of th… common rode, wherein common place-ſupplyes would be of little uſe. Truly that was likely to cauſe ſome Oppoſition; that the Reverend Doctor… went out of the Common rode, (where was no allowed way) by his Singular notion of Schiſm; that never was gone in by any before him, nor I think will be followed by any after him, (I onelyonly except another Notioniſt, Lud. Molin, in another controverſie in his Corollarium, p. 100. Who in approbation of this new notion, tells us; The whole Chriſtian world, from the Apoſtles times, never knew of ſuch a notion of the nature of Schiſm, till the Reverend Doctor taught it them. And I realy believe him; onelyonly I think he …ould have added, that the Apoſtles …emſelves never knew of ſuch a notion. What ever was ſaid by me "about miniſter's callings, Church-government, or the like, was occaſioned by him…lfe, in his ſuperſtructures upon that …eake foundation, as ſhall appeare.

Whether the Reverend Doctor, hath …ven a plaine and full returne to what …ay ſeeme of importance in my Book,pag. 9. …thers muſt judge, and not we our …lves; who do obſerve (all I meet with) …hat little or nothing is ſaid by him, to …he Argumentative part thereof, but …ome ſl…ghter velitations, to defend his …wn new Notions; leaving the princi…all parts untouched. This will appear …n his Account of his thoughts, in the …iew of my Treatiſe; which he twice Recapitulates for failing, to give notice …f the particulars of it. I muſt take a …eview of them.

1. He ſayes, I am without any provocation intended or given, reviled from one end of it to the other; and called partly in downe-right termes, partly by oblique intimatio… Sathan, Atheiſt, Sceptick, Donatiſ… Heretick, &c. I muſt profeſſe, whe… I firſt readd this charge, I ſtood amaze and aſtoniſhed, that my Treatiſe ſhou… be charged with the crime of rev…ling whereupon I took it up, and read … over again and again, to ſee, if I coul… diſcover ſo much weakneſſe or guilt… neſſe in my ſelf; and fearing my ow… partiality, I conſulted with other lea… ned and godly perſons, who had rea… it, who profeſſed, they found nothin… in it, but words of truth and ſoberneſſe and ſuch as might become a Chriſtia… Adverſary, as being ſharp to the cauſe he oppoſed, but ſufficiently reſpectful… to his perſon, whom he did oppoſe. But this is not the leaſt miſery in Controverſies, that what is intended againſt the way, is applyed to the perſon, and ſo provokes by accident to further ſtrife. But for thoſe particulars, by him called revilings, I give him this account: 1. If I at any time call him perſonally ſchiſmatick, which I think I do not, but onelyonly his way and party to be ſchiſmaticall, he knowes I cannot avoid it, if I make good the Title of my Book, ſuppoſing him to be an Independent, as he is generally taken to be. And why nay not a good man be a ſchiſmatick, as well as thoſe honeſt Corinthians, whom …oth the Apoſtle and himſelf, charge with the crime of ſchiſm? If I have not …roved his way to be a ſchiſm, I ſhall …onfeſſe my wrong, in calling of …t, or him, Schiſmaticall. 2. For …he word Sectary, that followes upon the former; if men by ſchiſm ſeparate into fractions or ſections, they will deſerve the name of Sectaries; and himſelf calls ſome men ſo. 3. For Heretick, as it was more than I charged him or his way with, (ſpeaking ſtrictly of Independents) ſo I never call them ſo; though I believe himſelf does not deny, but ſome Independent Churches are Hereticall. 4. For Donatiſts, I onelyonly charged their principles upon his way, which if they be acknowledged to be ſchiſmaticall, (as they are, by all that are Orthodox, and by himſelf confeſſed to be criminall at leaſt) the parallel will fall upon them, whether I will or no; as it doth upon the Romaniſts, embracing and maintaining the ſame principles. 5. For the word Phariſee, when he ſpake, as I thought, too contemptibly of Chriſtians, the multitude, the wicked, and profane, I onelyonly ſaid, This ſound… too much of the Phariſee. But its known, they ſeparate from the beſt of our Congregations, as well as from ſuch. My anſwer here, was juſt the ſame, that the learned Doctor Hall gave to the Browniſts, Apol. ſ. 28.for like aſperſions upon our Congregations. 6. As for thoſe words, Atheiſt or Sceptick, the firſt is but once uſed, page 15. in theſe words: He that denyes, that profeſſed Chriſtians may be compelled to the externall profeſſion of the onelyonly way of worſhip, ſeems to me to be, if not an Atheiſt, a Sceptick in Religion. What's this to the reverend Doctor, or any man living, that does not deny that my aſſertion? The word Sceptick is once more uſed, upon the like ſuppoſition, page 187. 7. Laſtly, the worſt is, that I call him Sathan; which I no where do, in downright tearms, nor neceſſarily, in an oblick intimation or reflection: For 1. A man that ſaies to a blaſphemer, or other notorious ſlanderer or curſer, The Lord rebuke thee, (which were the words he excepts againſt, & yet theſe not directly ſpoken neither) does not preſently call him Devill or Sathan. 2. The cauſe of uſing thoſe words, was very urgent and provoking, as I thought, in his charging our Ordination to come from Antichriſt the Beaſt; which was in effect to deny or annull our Miniſtry and Churches: As our bleſſed Saviour did obliquely, yea directly, call a man as good as himſelf, Sathan, when he would have hindred him from ſuffering: Get thee behind me, Sathan, for thou ſavoureſt not the things that be of God, &c. 3. And what is that leſſe, (if not more direct) then calling me Sathan, page 22? when ſpeaking of me, as carried beyond all bounds of moderation, and Chriſtian tenderneſſe in offending; he adds, I no way doubt, but that Sathan hath his deſigne in this whole buſineſſe. Jam ſumus ergo pares. If this be reviling, from one end of the book to another, let the indifferent Reader judge. Yea, ſome do ſay, (and I could obſerve it) that the reverend Doctor, though he have given me very ſweet words and complemental; In this one p. 11▪ diſcovering ſanguinary thoughts againſt them pag. 11.yet hath ſecretly more reviled me, and endeavoured to blaſt my reputation, with godly men, than I have him. I may note it in ſome paſſages hereafter.

2. The next is no leſſe bitter; The profeſſed deſigne of the whole, is to prove Independency to be a great ſchiſm, and that Independents are ſchiſmaticall ſectaries, the troublers of England. That it were happy for the Nation, they were out of it. Or diſcove…ing ſanguinary thoughts, in reference to them. And theſe kind of diſcourſes fill up the book, almoſt from one end to the other. I have much ado to forbear to ſay once more, The Lord rebuke thee, in the ſenſe aforeſaid. 1. For the firſt part, that my deſigne was, to prove Independency to be a great ſchiſm, and conſequently Independents (whom I mean, we ſhall hea… anon) to be ſchiſmaticall, I cannot deny, if I intended to make good the title of my Book; and ſuch kind of diſcourſe muſt neceſſarily fill up my Book, from one end to another. But I pray, am I the firſt, that hath charged them and their way to be ſchiſmaticall? have not many learned and pious men done it before me? and is this the firſt time that I have ſo charged it, that it ſeems ſo novell to the reverend Doctor? And i… they have, ſome of them, been proved ſuch, and ſectaries beſides, do not ſuch trouble the peace of the Church? Of ſome, I doubt not, he will confeſſe it, and, with me, wiſh them any where, rather then in England, and think the Nation happy in their avoidance. Paul ſaid of ſuch, I would they were cut off that troub…e you. 2. But for the latter part,Men whoſe tender mercies are cruel. p. 18. My diſcovering ſanguinary thoughts, in reference to them. I ſhould hate my ſelf, if I were guilty of it, and ſhall appeal all Readers, when they hear my words, whether they import ſo much; page 200. Theſe new builders will gather a Church out of no Churches, and begin a new one: It had been happy for Old England, if they had all gone into New England, and laid the foundation of their Churches amongſt the Indians, and not to build upon other mens foundations; and then tell us, They are building ſpick and ſpan new Churches. This was the worſt I ſaid, and but once onelyonly; as far from ſanguinary, as from filling up my Book, from one end to the other.

3. But he goes on;pag. 11. No Chriſtian care ſeems to have been taken, nor good conſcience exerciſed, from the beginning to the ending, as to imputation of any thing unto me, or upon me, that may ſerve to help the deſigne in hand. The deſigne he told us, was, to prove Independency to be a great ſchiſm; and, I muſt confeſſe, my care was, to make that way to appeare as Deformed as I could, with reaſon and truth; but as for his perſon, being to me as very a ſtranger as I to him; I was ſo farre from wronging him, by falſe or ſtrained imputations, that I gave him his due commendations, where I could; as appeares by my p. 36. and p. 102. both in approving, and applauding his diſcourſe; and from one end of my book, to another, giving him his due titles and reſpect. But let him inſtance, in thoſe conſcience-leſſe imputations upon him. Hence (he ſayes) I think it is repeated an hundred times, that I deny their Miniſters,pag. 12. Churches, and all Reformed, but our owne; which is notoriouſly untrue, contrary to my knowne judgment, to expreſſe affirmations in my book, &c. But 1. the Reverend Doctor ſpeaks Hyperbolically enough, when he ſayes it is repeated, an 100 times, that he denyes our Miniſters, &c. He may do well to number them, and ſee how farre ſhort the reckoning comes, 2. I confeſſe, I took it for granted; that the Reverend Doctor was a thorough Independent, in the voice of all men; and I knew that Independents do deny our Miniſters and Churches, &c. If the judgment of the reverend Doctor be now altered, I ſhall rejoyce much, in the ſucceſſe of any Treatiſe, mine or others, to his converſion, 3. But if he yet be conſtant to his Principles delivered in his former Treatiſe, and vox populi be not a very lyar; I ſhall not doubt if need be, to ſay a thouſand times, he does at leaſt by conſequence deny our Miniſtry, and Churches; our Ordination and all, even our Church-memberſhip. But of that more fully anone.

I cannot here but obſerve one piece of policy, the Reverend Doctor hath made uſe of (obſerved alſo by others) beyond his Praedeceſſ…urs, in this controverſie, to ingratiate himſelfe, and way, with vulgar readers, to make them ſeem the better. 1. That he is ſo free and frequent in Commending of me, his adverſary. p. 10 and 46. 121. and elſewhere; as Hierome ſaid of Ruffinus, He wrongs me with praiſes; Surely (they will think) he will never wrong the truth, that does right to his Adverſary, 2. His extraordinary Complements, after the Mode of the times; may pretend to great Humility, conſidering the diſtance betwixt him and me, a Reverend Doctor and Deane, and a poore country Preſbyter; ſuch as theſe, Let him at any time give me a command to wait upon him, p… 19. I deſire to know, when and where I may perſonally wait upon him, p. 39. … humbly begg of this Author, that h… would favour me with a command, &c p. 85. See alſo. p. 92.129.139.180 All moſt as oft repeated, as thoſe charged upon me afore; all which ſome would interprete for ſo many jeares, but I do not ſo, 3. He hath yet another policy, taking it pro confeſſo, that I am guilty, and that he would have his Reader think ſo too; that is, his frequent prayers, for forgiveneſſe of my miſcarriages, and his owne forgiveneſſe; which is repeated in my obſervation, 5. Times, p. 14. 51. 124. 149. 180. As if he would by ſuch Charity, perſwade me alſo, as well as his reader, that I had greatly wronged him. And yet it ſeems that though his charity can forgive his wrongs, yet it cannot forget them; for it is repeated often, (30 times at leaſt) that I wrong him notoriouſly; and frequent charges of me, with untruth, wrongs, lyes, &c. to make me odious to his Reader: yea there is more bitterneſs couched in one ſentence, after he had newly prayed for me, than is to be found in all my books; this it is Untill I ſaw this Treatiſe,pag. 14. I did not believe that there had remained in any one godly, ſober, judicious perſon in England, ſuch thoughts of heart; in reference to our preſent differences, as are viſible and legible therein and tells …ne boldly, "I have taken paines to caſt oyle on thoſe flames, which it is every ones duty to labour to extinguiſh. Whereas I did but caſt water, as I thought, upon thoſe flames which he had unhappily kindled, by his new Notions.

But we have a ſecond Review of my Treatiſe, wherein my M…ſtakes are preſented to the Reader, with reſpect to that influence they have into the argumentative part of my diſcourſe; viz. my ungrounded ſuppoſitions, as he calls them.

1. It is (ſayes he) ſtrenuouſly ſuppoſed all along,pag. 16. that I deny all Churches in England to be true churches of Chriſt except onelyonly the Churches gathered in the congregationall way, That I may diſtinctly anſwer this; let it be conſidered, that (as I ſaid before) I ſuppoſed the Reverend Doctor, to be an Independent, upon the generall vote of all men, and I knew it to be the judgment of many; and the*That this is the conſequence of their explicite Covenant, ſee what is the judgment of the Walachrian Churches: Haec ſententia privat omnes Eccleſias reformatas, quae tali foedere non uniuntur, vero Eccleſiaſtico miniſterio, poteſtate Vocandi & Ordinandi miniſtros, legitima ſacramentorum adminiſtratione, Eccleſiaſtica juriſdictione, &c. Et negat omnes in Eccleſiis iſlis baptizatos, ritè & verè baptizatos eſte, &c. Apollon. Conſid. quarundam Controv. &c. pag. 23. conſequent of their declared principle, that no Churches are truly conſtituted, bu… ſuch as are gathered in the Congregationall way. 2. took the word Independent generally, as comprehending Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, and other Sectaries, wh… ſtrenuouſly aſſert… that we are no true Churches. 3. Though I ſometimes ſpeak, as of the reverend Doctor his perſon, (eſpecially, whe… his notion is new and ſingular, as in that of ſchiſm, &c.) yet I intended indefinitely, any kind of Independents, and not him diſtinguiſhed from the reſt▪ They commonly deny our Churches. In a word, I reſpected his way, rather then his perſon; all along my Treatiſe. What then? does the reverend Doctor in his judgment, without equivocation, hold our Churches to be true Churches? We are glad of his conceſſions, but fear, that he will be loſt with many Independent Churches, who hold us Antichriſtian; and believe, that his own principles will confute his preſent conceſſions. But hear what he ſaies, "I now inform him, that a…l thoſe ſurmiſes are fond and untrue, pag. 17. And tells us, He ſhall as willingly engage in the defence of the Miniſtry, of the godly Miniſters in England, with the lawfulneſs of their Churches, as any what ever. …g. 20. Though the words be ambi…ouſly ſpoken, I muſt take heed of …ppoſition or ſuſpicion of inſincerity, in …is profeſſion, leſt he charge me with …ew ſurmiſes: What then doth he ſcru…e at? I onelyonly in my Treatiſe have queſtioned, the inſtitution of a Nationall Church. A Nationall Church hath (as …e was told) a double notion; it im…orts either an Hierarchicall Church, with ſubordination of Officers, (which …e ſaies, I do not maintain) or a Church, where all the Churches of a Nation …gree in Doctrine and Worſhip, and …elebrate it accordingly, in the Preſby…erian way. Which of theſe does he queſtion? or rather, which of them does he allow to be true Churches? Does he not renounce and diſpute againſt both, as Churches not truly conſtituted, and ſo, in the judgment of Independents, Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, no true Churches, yea, Antichriſtian? Do not his own principles infer this concluſio… If any man hath nothing to ſhew, but … ſucceſſive Ordination, through, or fr… Rome, he looks not on him, as a Mi… ſter of Chriſt. But all our Miniſter have nothing elſe to ſhew, (as valid) … make them Miniſters, but their ſucce… ſive Ordination; Ergo, He looks up… them as no Miniſters of Chriſt, an… conſequently, we have no Churche… Will he engage in defence of ſuch Miniſtry, ſuch Churches? But more … this again, ere long. And now I am no… indebted to give him any ſatisfaction (having done him no injury) he hader-poſed himſelf to the cenſure and diſpleaſure of many godly Miniſters, pag. 21.Churches and Chriſtians, before ever I ſaw … Book. And I go on to the next.

2. A ſecond ſuppoſition (he ſayes) is That what ever the preſbyterian Miniſters and Churches be, he hath ſeparated from them, as have done all thoſe, whom he calls Independents. What ſaye… the Reverend Doctor to this; Doth no… this reverend Author know, that this is denyed by us? Is it nos ſufficiently diſproved, in that very Treatiſe which he undertakes to anſwer? However, the reverend Doctor himſelf, might not totally ſeparate from us, holding compli…ce in preaching or hearing, in our …hurches, to what ends, he knowes. …et ſurely, thoſe Independents whom … names, Browniſts, Anabaptiſts, &c. … utterly refuſe communion with us, Antichriſtian, as no Churches, no M… …ſters: Yea, many of thoſe who are …agle, or ſingular Independents, not yet one ſo far as Browniſts or Anabaptiſts, …o not ſo much as hear (much leſſe re…eive the Sacrament) in our Churches, …nleſſe ſome of theirs preach. And may …hey not juſtifie it upon his own prin…ples? Does he not confidently deny, …ny ſeparation from a Church to be …chiſm? And in this place, does he not …loſely juſtifie their ſeparation; The blameable ſeparation muſt reſpect ſome union of Chriſts inſtitution.pag. 22. Now wherein have we (we, not I) ſeparated from them, as to the breach of any ſuch union? I pray now, what's this, in true ſenſe, but, we have indeed ſeparated from you, but without breach of any union of Chriſts inſtitution, for you were not Churches united, according to his inſtitution. Juſt as he pleaded for ſeparation from Rome, and from the Nationall Church. And what followes hence, but this, We are no true Churches, and their ſeparation is juſt. Thus he plead for all, Independents, Browniſts, Anab… tiſts; for the plea is theirs, to juſtifie th… ſeparation. Some of them can com… and hear in our Churches, but up… Robinſons latter principles, not as Chu… ches, or Miniſters, but as gifted brethre… But hear him plead for himſelf: p… my part, what hath he to lay to my charg… I condemn not their Churches in gener… to be no Churches. Nor do the Bro… niſts ſo, ſome true Churches they do a… low us, of the Independent dreſſe; … leaſt,See Dr. Hall Apol p. 52. Med. comparatively, they ſay, we are no… ſo bad as the Whore of Babylon. But h… goes on: I never diſturbed, that I kno… of, the peace of any one of them, n… ſeparated from them. What? was h… never of any particular Church, as member, as a Miniſter? not of that i… Eſſex? did he never ſeparate from them, nor diſturb the peace of that, or ſom… Churches, by raiſing diviſions in them ſoliciting proſelytes out of them? Hath he not by his book of Schiſm, caſt fir… into all the Churches of England? Did he not labour to gather a Church, in his own Colledge, if report fail not? In his former book, and preſent defence, doth he not adviſe others, to come out of our …hurches? Of ſchiſm, page 270. If all …is be true, his crime preceded his pu…hment, and he may be content to bear … whilſt I go on to the next.

3. He ſuppoſeth throughout, that I deny, not onelyonly the neceſſity of a ſucceſſive Ordination; but, the lawfulneſſe of it alſo. No, I ſuppoſed (and proved) at he denies the lawfulneſſe of our …cceſſive Ordination; by which I under…ood, not onelyonly impoſition of hands, …t the whole authoritative tranſlation of man, into the ſtate of an Officer of the …hurch. Now, does not the reverend …octor deny our Ordination as fully, as …rowniſts or Anabaptiſts, upon the ſame …ound, becauſe we had it ſucceſſively …om Rome? I repeat his words again; If any man have nothing to plead for his Miniſtry, Of ſchiſm. p. 196.but meerly that ſucceſſive Ordination, received through the Church of Rome, I cannot ſee a ſtable bottom, of owning him ſo to be. If this be …ot to deny our Ordination and Miniſtry …o, let the Reader judge. If he thinks … ſufficient to ſay, he doth not deny …ur Ordination, becauſe he is pleaſed to …ratifie us with another plea, page 197. …f ſchiſm; that he diſclaims all thoughts of rejecting thoſe Miniſters, as Papa… and Antichriſtian, who yet adhere … that Ordination, being many of the… eminently gifted of God, &c. and ſubmitted to by the people, &c. This is ſ… far from juſtifying our Ordination, … our being Miniſters by vertue thereof that it doth the clean contrary: It tel… us onelyonly, That though indeed our Ordination do not make us Miniſters, y… we are not by our Ordination ſo inc… pacitated, but that, notwithſtanding it we may by ſomewhat elſe be made M… niſters; viz. our gifts, and the people ſubmiſſion. And if (when he ſaies, … does not renounce his own Ordination his meaning be this, that he doth no deny, but that he was ordained, and ye… holds, that notwithſtanding his Ordination, he may (upon ſome other account) be a Miniſter, we wiſh he woul… have ſpoken out, and let others judge whether this be a renouncing of hi… Ordination or not.

pag. 24.But the reverend Doctor ſeems to b… turn'd Orthodox, in point of Ordination; I ſay, it is according to the mi… of Chriſt, that he who is to be ordaine… unto office in any Church, receive imp… ſition of hands from the Elders of th… Church, if there be any there; and this to be done in a way of ſucceſſion, that the Churches may be perpetuated. Mark, Impoſition of hands from the Elders of …hat Church, not by a Preſbytery for…aigne to that Church; If there be any …here. But if none there, he tells us not, what is to be done then. Beſides, he …peaks onelyonly of impoſition of hands, which he blamed others for) as if than were all of Ordination, when as he told …s, The Scripture compriſeth in it, the whole authoritative tranſlation of a man into an Officer, differing from the other as whole and part. And that ſucceſſion …e ſpeaks of, ceaſes, when there are no Officers in that Church, or a new Church … to be erected; then it muſt fall upon …he people, or I know not whom. But …ow comes this change, and how long? Was it not the reverend Doctor, that when ſome young men came to adviſe with him, about their Ordination, diſwaded them from it? Was it not he …hat ſaid, that he would maintain againſt …ll the Miniſters of England, there was … Scripture no ſuch thing as Ordinati…n? Was it not he, that when it was ob…ected to him, deſiring to be a Parliament-Man, that he was incapable of it, as being a Miniſter, would not anſwer, He was, or was not a Miniſter? this was vox populi, at Oxford. And was not this to renounce his Ordination? What then is it, that he doth oppoſe? The denying (I ſuppoſe it ſhould be the deriving) of this ſucceſſive Ordination, through the authority of Antichriſt. This fallacy does not become the reverend Doctor's learning, it is fallacia compoſitionis. We derive our Ordination, not from Antichriſt, but from ſuch as were truely preſbyters, ſucceſſively ordained, though with ſome corruptions: This he was told again and again, was the anſwer of all our beſt Divines, but he takes no notice of it: Yea, Luther, and our firſt Reformers, had no other Ordination but ſuch; will he look on them as no Miniſters of Chriſt? Hear what he ſaies; Before the bleſſed Reformation begun,pag. 24. and carried on by Zuinglius, Luther, &c. there were, and had been, two ſtates of men in the world, profeſsing the name of Chriſt and the Goſpell, as to the outward prof…ſſi…n thereof; the one in glory, &c. the other poor, &c. Conſider now, whether the reverend Doctor do not acknowledge the Church of Rome to be a Church, profesſing the name of Chriſt and the Goſpell, as to the outward profeſſion of it? which lately he did deny, and will again ere long, page 26. And I ask, of what Church Luther and Zuingulius were, before the Reformation? either of Rome or none; a corrupt Church, but yet a Church. But he adds; As to the claim of a ſucceſſive Ordination, down from the Apoſtles,pag. 25. I made bold to affirm, I could not underſtand the validity of it, as ſuccesſive, which was derived to us, from, and by, the firſt party of men in the world. I hope, if any Church can prove a ſucceſſive Ordination from the Apoſtles, it would be no prejudice, but an honour to it; as the Greek Church, I ſuppoſe, does plead, and not from Rome. And if it was our unhappineſſe, to have our ſucceſſive Ordination through fouler hands, (if at leaſt fouler then ſome of the Greek Churches) yet truely Miniſters, ſhall that invalidate our Ordination? Muſt we be charged, to derive our Ordination from Antichriſt, as Antichriſt, or from the Beaſt, as the Beaſt, becauſe we had it from ſome that were members, or officers of that (newly confeſſed) Church? That was it that warmed my*So he excuſed Auſtin againſt the Donatiſts, p. 166 zeal ſo much, as to tell the reverend Doctor,Of ſchiſm. pag. 25. that he caſt dirt in the face of our Miniſtry, and to be ready to ſay, The Lord rebuke thee. Dare he appeal the Search…r of all hearts, he had no deſigne in all this, to caſt dirt on any godly Miniſter in England, when as this is the filth that is daily caſt upon us, by his friends, the Brown…ſts, Anabaptiſts, and ſome Independents, not yet gone ſo far as others, Our Antichriſtian Miniſtry? Bartlet, in his Model.He call'd for ſatisfaction, for ſuppoſed wrongs; but what ſatisfaction will he give, to all the Miniſters of England, and other Nations, for thus revileing of them, to ſay, They derived their ſucceſſive Ordination, through the authority of Antichriſt. But (ſaies the reverend Doctor) Might not another anſwer have been returned,pag. 26. without that wrath? This is ſo, or it is not ſo, in reference to this Nation: If it be not ſo, and they plead not their ſucceſſive Ordination from Rome, there is an end of this difference. This is a pleaſing notion to the reverend Doctor, for he uſes it twice more, once page 28. and again, page 130. But 1. Might not the reverend Doctor have given a better reſolution of the caſe,D. Hal Apol. againſt Browniſts, ſect. 30. p. 508. as all our Divines hitherto have done? Our ſucceſſive Ordination is not claimed from Rome as Papall or Antichriſtian, but from Rome, ſo far as Chriſtian, the Papacy being but the Leproſie of that Church. Muſt he needs take the worſer part of the diſtinction, and caſt dirt on our Miniſtry, before Papiſts, and all our Sectarian enemies? And was not that my anſwer, to which he ſaith nothing, but ſtill goes on to provoke by ſcornfull language. His Dilemma, with its horns, intends to gore us on both ſides; If it be not ſo, there's an end of this difference, we are wholly agreed; and what need thoſe exclamations? pag. 28. That is, if we do not plead our Ordination from Rome, (and have no other to plead) we have none at all, and ſo no Min…ſters, no Churches, that way. If it be ſo, that we ſay, we have our Ordination from Rome, then he concludes us Antichriſtian, You have your Ordination through the authority of Antichriſt. To prevent both theſe, I diſtinguiſhed as afore: We have it not from Rome as Antichriſtian, but from Officers of that Church, though much corrupt. Are we now at all agreed, when he derives our ped…gree from Antichriſt and the Beaſt, and I derive it from Officers of that Church, which he rejects? Calls he this an Agreement? I ſay it is from Rome, and he ſayes ſo too, and ſo the vulgar muſt believe, we are agreed. Doloſus verſatur in univerſalibus and hates Diſtinctions as evill doers do the light.

But I asked, why may not this be a ſufficient foundation of our Miniſtry; as well as for our Baptiſm? He askes me (as afore) If it be ſo, and be ſo acknowledged, whence is that provocation that aroſe from my Enquiry after it; which may receive the ſame anſwer as afore: The provocation aroſe from charging us to receive both, from the Authority of Antichriſt. And I asked him; Whence he derived his owne Baptiſm? To which he gives no ſatisfactory anſwer, but now tells me (very ſtrangely) I judge their Baptiſm good and valid; but to deal plainly with him, not on that foundation. Upon what then? Might not the men that received their Baptiſm and power to Baptize from that ſucceſſive ordination, receive alſo power to ordaine? or does he ſo far joyn with the Anapaptiſts, that any diſciple, no-Miniſter, may baptize; or does he renounce his ſucceſſive baptiſme, as ſome (if not himſelfe) have done their Ordination from Rome? Heare his anſwer; I cannot believe, that that Idolater, murtherer, man of ſinne, had, ſince the dayes of his open Idolatry perſecution and enmity to Chriſt, any authority more or leſſe committed to him from the Lord, nor over his Churches. Change the Scene, and let him tell us; what he believes concerning Chriſtian Idolatrous perſecuting Magiſtrates; Do they thereupon forfeit their Authority over their people and Churches? Parcius iſta: If he ſay, its otherwiſe with Miniſters, I put him the caſe of the Idolatrous perſecuting high Prieſts among the Jewes; Were they preſently Exauthorized upon thoſe miſcarriages? nay, muſt not Antichriſt ſit in the Temple of God, 2 Theſ. 2.4. that is, the Church; profeſſing the name of Chriſt, and the Goſpell, as to the outward profeſſion thereof; as he told us, p. 24. The Reverend Doctor hath endeavoured to elude that text, (of Schiſm p. 154.), by a gloſſe or interpretation of St. Auſtins de. civ Dei. l. 10. c. 59. That the words are thus to be rendered; A ſetting up againſt the Temple of God, not a ſitting in the Temple of God;Estius, in loco. and could be content it ſhould ſo be taken for a preſent ſhift, which is by Papiſts themſelves rejected, as moſt improbable, who grant it meant of the Church; that Ant…chriſt muſt fit in the Church, and by moſt, if not all our Divines, ſo underſtood in the controverſie of Anti-Chriſt, He muſt not be looked for, without the Church, but within the boſome of the Church; Beza in locum. Yea if the Reverend Doctor had conſulted the text; he had found Auſtins gloſſe the more improbable if not impoſſible; for the words are thus in the Greek, foreign, would this be a genuine ſenſe; So that he as God, ſets up himſelfe againſt the Temple of God? Beſides that this would be a kind of Tautology, having before called him foreign &c. And did he not tell us, that ſuch Churches as ours, may for ought he knowes, be in Italy. p. 49? Laſtly, Said he not alſo, Grant the uſually received ſenſe, it imports no more, but that the man of ſinne, ſhall ſet up his power againſt God, in the midſt of them, who by their outward viſible profeſſion, have right to be called his Temple, that is, the Church: for are not they that make an outward viſible profeſſion of Chriſt and the Goſpell; rightly called a Church though corrupt and wicked. Did not Satan dwell and …ad his throne in a Church, Rev. 2.13. …hat of Perganus? But enough of that. …ut I ſaid, he and his party would not …ave been pleaſed with Ordination from … Preſb…yerie, though not from Rome: …e askes me angerly; I pray, who told you ſo? when, wherein, and by what meanes have I oppoſed it? I acknowledge my ſelfe of no party. I have told him …fore, when and wherein and by what meanes he hath oppoſed it; if he pleaſe …o look back. I onelyonly add, he oppoſed it, by aſſigning Impoſition of hands onelyonly to …he Elders of a particular Church; and by offering to gather an Independent Church, as I have been credibly informed. What need his charge of Tranſportation and reflections upon him,pag. 27. and that without due obſervation of truth and love. But, its worſe, that he charges me with an untruth, As if I acknowledged thoſe firſt Reformers had their ordination from the people; when as I ſpeak the direct contrary. The firſt Reformers, Luther &c. had not their ordination from the people, but from Rome, p. 116. et alibi. I onelyonly excepted ſome Extraordinary eaſie, where no Miniſters were to be had for Ordinatjon, and that onelyonly for the firſt turne.

But he is as much diſpleaſed for m… affirming, that he hath renounced hi… owne Ordination.pag. 29. He askes Who tol… him theſe things? I am now neceſſitate… to tell him, that all theſe things are falſe… and utterly in part and in whole untrue … and he is not able to prove one of them. My reaſons, or rather Evidences of thi… charge of renouncing his ordination were theſe, 1. The world looks at him, as a… Independent of the higheſt note; and I knew it is their judgment, that our ord… nation is Antichriſtian; and if ſo, its time for him to renounce it. 2. I know, from good hand, that ſome of the Brethren have renounced their ordination; ſo I am told, They all renounced their ordination in England,Anat. of Independ. pag. 23. and ordained one another in Holland; when Mr. Ward was choſen paſtor, and Mr. Bridges Teacher at Roterdam, firſt Mr. Bridges ordained Mr. Ward, and then immediately Mr. Ward againe ordained Mr. Bridges. Thus one hand waſhes another, and I might reaſonably think; the Reverend Doctor had alſo renounced his. 3. I had divers times heard, that he declaimed againſt and diſſwaded our ordination; and I thought it not probable he would ſtill retein it. 4. I concluded …m his owne principles in his book of …hiſm, that our ſucceſſive ordination …me from Antichriſt and the Beaſt as …ore; and that thoſe "That inſiſt upon … that plea, would (if he miſtake not) keep … up in this particular what God would have … pulled downe, p. 198. of Schiſm. And …ould he keep it up in himſelfe? If I …ere ſo perſwaded; I ſhould renounce …y Ordination to night, before to mor…ow. 5. If this be not ſufficient, let him re…ember what he ſaid in the preſence of …l or moſt of his owne Canons, at a pub…ck meeting, ſpeaking of his Ordination …y the Biſhop of Oxford, in that place; That he valued it no more, then that crum upon his trencher or neere it, which he fillipped away. It may be, his Canons will not affirm this to me (though to ſome others they have,) but I ſhall put it upon this Iſſue; that if they will give it under their hands, that they never heard him ſay thoſe or ſuch like words, I ſhall believe the report was falſe. 6. I would appeal his owne conſcience, Does he believe his former Ordination valid? Does he do any Miniſteriall act now, by vertue of his former ordination? if not, what's that but a renouncing of his ordination? If he do, he contradicts or condemnes himſelf, reſerving an Ordination, which he a… counts Antichriſtian. And then, wh… meanes thoſe outcryes, I was nev… yet ſo dealt withall, by any man … what party ſoever:pag. 29. Does this dealing b… come a Miniſter of the goſpells &c. B… whether thoſe Recharges upon me, … 30. be not utterly untrue, and unb… coming his Reverence and piety, I lea… to all indifferent Readers to judge, b… what hath been the Language and ca… riage of my former diſcourſe; and wh… hath here been returned. This Chapte… being a Recapitulation of my whole boo… from one end to another, hath held m… very long. I ſhall promiſe to be ſhorte… in thoſe that follow.