Conference Held About Religion at London, Title page – Preface
A RELATION OF A CONFERENCE Held About RELIGION, AT LONDON, BY EDW. STILLINGFLEET, D. D. &c.
With some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome.
LONDON: Printed, and are to be Sold by Randal Taylor near Stationers-Hall. 1687.
THE PREFACE.
THere is nothing that is by a more universal agreement decried, than Conferences about Controversies of Religion: and no wonder, for they have been generally managed with so much heat and passion, parties being more concerned for Glory and Victory, than Truth; and there is such foul dealing in the accounts given of them, that it is not strange to see these Prejudices taken up against them. And yet it cannot be denied, but if Men of Candor and Calmness should discourse about matters of Religion, without any other interest than to seek and follow Truth, there could not be a more effectual and easie way found for satisfying Scruples. More can be said in one hour than read in a day: Besides that what is said in a discourse discreetly managed, does more appositely meet with the doubtings and difficulties any body is perplexed with, than is possibly to be found in a Book: and since almost all Books disguise the Opinions of those that differ from them, and represent their Arguments as weak, and their Opinions as odious; Conferences between those of different Perswasions do remedy all these Evils. But after all the Advantages of this way, it must be confessed that for the greater part Men are so engaged to their Opinions by interest and other ties, that in Conferences most Persons are resolved before-hand to yield to no conviction, but to defend every thing: being only concerned to say so much as may darken weaker Minds that are Witnesses, and give them some occasion to triumph; at least conceal any foil they may have received, by wrapping up some pittiful shift or other, in such words, and pronouncing them with such accents of assurance, and perhaps scorn, that they may seem to come off with Victory.
And it is no less frequent to see Men after they have been so baffled, that all discerning Witnesses are ashamed of them, yet being resolved to make up with impudence what is wanting in Truth, as a Coward is generally known to boast most, where he has least cause; publish about what feats they have done, and tell every body they see how the cause in their Mouth did triumph over their Enemies: that so the praise of the defeat given may be divided between the cause and themselves: and though in modesty they may pretend to ascribe all to Truth and the Faith they contended for, yet in their Hearts they desire the greatest part be offered to themselves.
All these Considerations with a great many more did appear to us, when the Lady T. asked us if we would speak with her Husband and some others of the Church of Rome, as well for clearing such Scruples as the perpetual converse with those of that Religion had raised in the Lady; as for satisfying her Husband, of whose being willing to receive instruction she seemed confident. Yet being well assured of the Ladies great candor and worth, and being willing to stand up for the Vindication and Honour of our Church, whatever might follow on it, we promised to be ready to wait on her at her House upon advertisement: without any nice treating before-hand, what we should confer about. Therefore we neither asked who should be there, nor what number, nor in what Method, or on what particulars our discourse should run, but went thither carrying only one Friend along with us for a Witness. If the Discourse had been left to our managing, we resolved to have insisted chiefly on the Corruptions in the worship of the Roman Church: to have shewed on several Heads that there was good cause to reform these Abuses; and that the Bishops and Pastors of this Church, the Civil Authority concurring, had sufficient Authority for reforming it. These being the material things in Controversie, which must satisfie every Person if well made out, we intended to have discoursed about them; but being put to answer, we followed those we had to deal with.
But that we may not forestall the Reader in any thing that passed in the Ladies Chamber, which he will find in the following account, we had no sooner left her House, but we resumed among our selves all had passed, that it might be written down, what ever should follow, to be published if need were. So we agreed to meet again three days after, to compare what could be written down, with our Memories. And having met, an account was read, which did so exactly contain all that was spoken, as far as we could remember, that after a few Additions, we all Three Signed the Narrative then agreed to. Few days had passed, when we found we had need of all that care and caution, for the matter had got wind, and was in every bodies Mouth. Many of our best Friends know how far we were from talking of it, for till we were asked about it, we scarce opened our Mouths of it to any Person. But when it was said that we had been baffled and foiled, it was necessary for us to give some account of it: Not that we were much concerned in what might be thought of us, but that the most excellent cause of our Church and Religion might not suffer by the misrepresentations of this Conference. And the truth was, there was so little said by the Gentlemen we spoke with, that was of weight, that we had scarce any occasion given us of speaking about things of Importance: So that being but faintly assaulted, we had no great cause of boasting, had we been ever so much inclined to it. At length being weary with the Questions put to us about it, we shewed some of our Friends the written account of it. And that those of the Church of Rome might have no pretence to complain of any foul dealing on our part, we caused a Copy of it to be writ out, and on the 19. of April sent it the Lady T. to be shewed to them. And one of us, having the honour to meet with her afterwards, desired her to let her Husband and the others with him know, that as we had set down very faithfully all we could remember that they had said; So if they could except at any part of this Narrative, or would add any thing that they either did say which we had forgot, or should have said which themselves had forgot to say, we desired they might add it to the account we sent them. For we looked on it as a most unreasonable thing, that the Credit of any Cause or Party should depend on their Extemporary Faculty of speaking, the quickness of their Invention, or the readiness of their memory who discourse about it: though it will appear that in this Conference they had all the advantage, and we all the disadvantage possible: Since they knew and were resolved what they would put us to, of which we were utterly ignorant: Save that about an hour before we went thither, we had an advertisement sent us by a third Person, that it was like they would assault us about the Articles of our Church, particularly that of the blessed Sacrament.
Having made this offer to the Lady of adding what they should desire, craving only leave that if they added any thing that was not said, we might be also allowed to add what we should have answered if such things had been said, we resolved to publish nothing till they had a competent time given them, both to make such Additions to the Narrative, and to consider the Paper whereby we hope we have made out according to our undertaking, that the Doctrine of the Church for the first seven or eight Ages was contrary to Transubstantiation: which we sent to the Lady on the seventeenth of April to be communicated to them. And therefore, though our Conference was generally talked of, and all Persons desired an account of it might be published; yet we did delay it till we should hear from them. And meeting on the twenty ninth of April with him who is marked N. N. in the account of the Conference, I told him, the foolish talk was made by their Party about this Conference, had set so many on us, who all called to us to print the account of it, that we were resolved on it: But I desired he might any time between that and Trinity Sunday, bring me what Exceptions he or the other Gentlemen had to the account we sent them, which he confessed he had seen. So I desired, that by that day I might have what Additions they would make either of what they had said but was forgot by us, or what they would now add upon second thoughts: but longer I told him I could not delay the publishing it. I desired also to know by that time whether they intended any answer to the Account we sent them of the Doctrine of the Fathers about Transubstantiation. He confessed he had seen that Paper: But by what he then said, it seemed they did not think of any answer to it.
And so I waited still expecting to hear from him. At length, on the twentieth of May, N. N. came to me and told me some of these Gentlemen were out of Town, and so he would not take on him to give any thing in writing; yet he desired me to take notice of some Particulars he mentioned, which I intreated he would write down, that he might not complain of my misrepresenting what he said. This he declined to do, so I told him I would set it down the best way I could, and desired him to call again that he might see if I had written it down faithfully, which he promised to do that same afternoon, and was as good as his word, and I read to him what is subjoyned to the Relation of the Conference, which he acknowledged was a faithful account of what he had told me.
I have considered it I hope to the full, so that it gave me more occasion of canvassing the whole matter. And thus the Reader will find a great deal of Reason to give an entire credit to this Relation, since we have proceeded in it with so much Candor, that it is plain we intended not to abuse the Credulity of any, but were willing to offer this account to the censure of the adverse party; and there being nothing else excepted against it, that must needs satisfie every reasonable man that all is true that he has here offered to his perusal.
And if these Gentlemen or any of their Friends publish different or contrary Relations of this Conference, without that fair and open way of procedure which we have observed towards them; we hope the Reader will be so just as to consider, that our Method in publishing this account has been candid and plain, and looks like men that were doing an honest thing, of which they were neither afraid nor ashamed: which cannot in reason be thought of any surreptitious account that like a work of Darkness may be let flye abroad, without the Name of any Person to answer for it on his Conscience or Reputation: and that at least he will suspend his belief till a competent time be given to shew what mistakes or errors any such relation may be guilty of.
We do not expect the Reader shall receive great Instructions from the following Conference, for the truth is, we met with nothing but shufling. So that he will find when ever we came to discourse closely to any head, they very dexterously went off from it to another, and so did still shift off from following any thing was suggested. But we hope every Reader will be so just to us as to acknowledge it was none of our fault, that we did not canvass things more exactly, for we proposed many things of great Importance to be discoursed on, but could never bring them to fix on any thing. And this did fully satisfie the Lady T. when she saw we were ready to have justified our Church in all things, but that they did still decline the entering into any matter of weight: So that it appeared both to her and the rest of the Company, that what boastings soever they spread about as if none of us would or durst appear in a Conference to vindicate our Church, all were without ground; and the Lady was by the blessing of God further confirmed in the Truth, in which we hope God shall continue her to her Lifes end.
But we hope the Letter and the two Discourses that follow, will give the Reader a more profitable entertainment. In the Letter we give many short hints, and set down some select Passages of the Fathers, to shew they did not believe Transubstantiation. Upon all which we are ready to joyn issue to make good every thing in that Paper, from which we believe it is apparent the Primitive Church was wholly a stranger to Transubstantiation.
It was also judged necessary by some of our Friends that we should to purpose, and once for all, expose and discredit that unreasonable demand of shewing all the Articles of our Church in the express words of Scripture: upon which the first discourse was written.
And it being found that no answer was made to what N. N. said, to shew that it was not possible the Doctrine of Transubstantiation could have crept into any Age, if those of that Age had not had it from their Fathers, and they from theirs up to the Apostles days, this being also since our Conference laid home to me by the same Person, it was thought fit to give a full account how this Doctrine could have been brought into the Church, that so a change may appear to have been not only possible, but also probable, and therefore the second discourse was written.
If these Discourses have not that full finishing and Life which the Reader would desire, he must regrate his Misfortune in this, that the Person who was best able to have written them, and given them all possible Advantages out of that vast stock of Learning and Iudgment he is Master of, was so taken up with other work cut out for him by some of these Gentlemens Friends, of which we shall see an excellent account very speedily, that it was not possible for him to spare so much time for writing these; so that it fell to the others share to do it: and therefore the Reader is not to expect any thing like those high strains of Wit and Reason which fill all that Authors Writings, but must give allowance to one that studies to follow him though at a great distance: Therefore all can be said from him is, that what is here performed was done by his Direction and Approbation, which to some degree will again encourage the Reader, and so I leave him to the perusal of what follows.